Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 26: Twenty Six Six Six

This is exactly right. You know those commercials where a single impossibly shiny car glides down a beautiful winding country road with a horse running along a fence? Oh yeah, that's not real life.
No, but Hyundai's available class-exclusive advanced safety features are designed for the roads we actually drive on, helping to keep you and your family protected. Hyundai vehicles are

equipped with a standard driver attention warning system, which constantly monitors your attention levels. Learn more about Hyundai at HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for complete details.
That's H-Y-U-N-D-A-I-U-S-A.com or call 562-314-4603. Goodbye.
I didn't think the pain from the shingles rash would affect simple everyday tasks like bathing, getting dressed, or even walking around. I was wrong.
Though not everyone at risk will develop it, 99% of people over the age of 50 already have the virus that causes shingles and it could reactivate at any time. I developed it and the blistering rash lasted for weeks.
Don't learn the hard way like I did. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today.
Sponsored by GSK. Comcast Business helps retailers become seamlessly restocking, frictionless paying favorite shopping destinations.
Thank you for shopping. business is powering the engine of modern business, powering possibilities.
Restrictions apply. Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

That a lot of spice.

And Rewind.

And Rewind.

This is our Wednesday episode, our new Wednesday episode, where we recap our old shows with

new commentary, updates, and potentially retractions if necessary.

I think this one is necessary.

Also, Happy New Year's Day if you're listening on the day that this comes out. It's 2024.
It's 2024 now. Five.
Five for you. Five.
Okay. Yeah.
I get time. This is being done in the past.
I can't believe it. Before you start your new year, which is going to be incredible, by the way.
What a year it's going to be for you. It's going to be.
But before we go into the future, let's let us drag you into the past. Oh, yes, that's right.
Because today we are recapping episode 26, Little Babies, we were, and we named it 2666, because course, we did. Punk rock.
Yeah. And it came out originally on Thursday, July 21st, 2016.
I just want to say July 21st in mid to late July in Los Angeles is a pretty warm time. Yeah.
We were still in your apartment with no air conditioning. That's correct.
I'm not saying that to you accusatorially. No, I love it.
It's my roots. I mean, but that's all I can think of when I think of like these, when I look at these and I'm like, oh yeah, that's right.
And then I'm like, I was having a great time and sweating my ass off. We were sweating.
I was wearing tiny clothes. We talk about in the beginning of this, like the worry that more fireworks are going to happen.
Oh yeah. Because that's Los Angeles Angeles the first, like couple weeks before the 4th of July and a couple weeks after in Los Angeles.
It's just constant fireworks. Fireworks in the tinderbox of a city.
That's just like dry, wood-based insanity. And we were so traumatized by the week before.
That's right. When we had those.
Or someone said they almost got in a car accident because they heard the fireworks from the week before and drove off the road. I thought it was happening in there.
I thought they were being shot at. We must be careful when we listen to podcasts on the road.
We have more power than we realize. And it feels great.
Doesn't it though? Here in 2025. Okay.
Are you ready? It's the Rewind episode. Now we all get to be day one listeners.
So let's listen to the intro of episode 26. Let's start.
Now? Let's start right now. Let's start right now.
Fireworks. Baby, you're a firework.
Whole building collapses. Someone on some social media site said that they almost got in a car accident when they heard the firework because they thought it was a gunshot oh no i know sorry we were just as scared as you were we were more scared because as loud as it was on the podcast it was fucking 15 times louder in real life yeah you're fine um sorry it was very very scary surprising and to me funny it's hilarious it keeps happening though so it might happen again tonight and what is it september i mean how much longer i don't know so prepare yourself and your dogs because I'm sure some people have thunder jackets off.
I tried to put a thunder shirt on George one time. And when I came home, it was eaten.
Yes. It was like ripped to shreds and parts were gone.
I know. I know that well.
I put a collar on my cat once and came back and it was like, here's what I think of it.

Yeah.

Get fuck yourself.

Get fuck.

I mean, I wouldn't want a fucking collar.

I mean, I guess I did when I was 14 and thought I was punk.

I wore a collar.

I mean, that was the 90s, right?

It was.

Wasn't it?

It was all about cat collars and shit back then.

Yeah.

Fake punk rock.

Totally.

I still have mine.

It still smells like Victoria's Secret apple spray secret uh apple spray apple body spray no oh no you mean sorrow yeah yep it still smells like ecstasy yeah uh hey how are you how was your week what's going on hi um i've just been working oh this is my favorite, listen. I mean, I figure if you press play on this, you probably know that.
If you're one of those rando people that just goes through iTunes and picks different podcasts and hits play. No one's ever done that, right? No, I seriously doubt it.
But welcome if you're that one person and you're the lone wolf. Hi.
Hi. And if you're new to this, I'm Georgia.
That's Karen. I'm Karen.
This is my voice. Karen was the one singing.
I do that because it's my passion. It's her passion and she's good at it.
And I'm not. I disagree.
That I'm bad at that. I'm bad.
You disagree that you're good at it. I disagree that you're bad at it.
Thank you. Because I've heard you do it jokingly and it's not bad.
Yeah. It's not.
I guess the secret is not to try or care or care. Yeah, that's true.
Here's a good segue into the presents we just got. I'm holding a cold beer to the stab wound that I gave myself okay can I just explain this very quickly so we had Georgia had a little pile of presents waiting for me when I got home to her apartment from work no this isn't my home and it was like I waited for you so we can open these up yeah we wanted to open them off air so it wouldn't take forever and one of them I opened two because uh georgia was slightly afraid they could be a bomb or something dangerous like karen's face so i'll go i was like i'll go ahead and take the hit i mean you're off camera talent you know i can have the eye patch yeah all you need are your is your brain that's and i would love for my teeth to be blown out so i can have get some awesome veneers anyhow yeah so I did the first two and Georgia was like I said she picked up the third one and I said do you want me to open that and she was like I can do it I'm not that insane or whatever it was you said anxiety and then she went to open it and stabbed herself in the bare leg with a pair of scissors and it I have to tell you as painful as'm sure it is, it's also hilarious.
It's one of those things. And this happens to me a lot where I'm glad it happened because it's worth it.
Like I run into stuff all the time and like do dumb shit. And I'm like, I'm so glad that that happened.
Yes. That's humor and life.
Instead of just when you look down and have a rando, uh, that's the second time I said that word and i've never really said it before at all um what's going on what teen boy am i trying to impress um when you look down and you there's just a huge bruise for no reason where you're just like do does this mean i have blood cancer yeah why the majority of my bruises i don't remember getting and And it's not because I'm constantly drunk. I'm not.

You're not.

And I mean, when I'm drunk, I'm smooth as shit, too. Like, I'm good.
I'm much better in person when I'm drunk. When you're drunk, what I notice is that you seem to just enjoy every single thing that goes on.
Yeah. You just have a big smile on your face and you think everything's kind of funny and, like, enjoyable, it seems like.
Yeah like, um, I think I like understand moments so much better and understand people and get, get life better. Yeah.
Which is like so unhealthy, but I think maybe I'm not anxious. Maybe that's it.
Maybe I'm amused and not anxious deep down under underneath. Yeah.
When you use beer to uncover your true personality. Well, some oh my god amazing gifts we just had it like a baby july christmas dude what was that that was someone slamming the door but it sounded like a gun that that sounded like a half firework to me yeah it did um all right start we got a beautiful card that's thing.
It's gorgeous. With a really funny, cute joke on the front and really great printing inside.
Beautiful printing. The kind of printing I wish I could do, but I don't understand why that looks the way it does.
I might do this. I might trace over the handwriting later.
It's so satisfying. Have you ever tried that? Uh, I've never done it.
It's from this is from emily and she just said a bunch of lovely things and it was it's basically a thank you card for our podcast which is the cutest thing of all time she was raised well girl and she likes a card we'd like to thank her parents for this card mr and mrs emily's parents right um move on to the next one. Then we got from Candace.
She sent us this really fucking rad. She's going to start doing murder zines.
And the first one is the murder zine is called the Matilda effect. And the first one is about Francis Glessner Lee.
There's there are women in science scenes. Oh, I thought they were murder.
No, they're women in science. Women in science scenes.
Sorry. But the first one, um, uh, is about a woman who, did she want to be a cop? Did that card say? Yeah.
She wanted to be a scientist. She wanted to be, she's basically, if you guys have seen the documentary, um, the nutshell studies where she really, this woman way back when really wanted to be a doctor, a nurse, and she wasn't allowed to because of her family.
I think she was a rich, I think she was from a wealthy family. So instead she started to make detailed miniature models of composite crime scenes.
So she just made miniature crime scenes so that cops could study them without screwing up the crime scene. And she's just had this huge effect on, on crime scene procedure and she's incredible i love candace um you can get these at smut punks it's smut punx.com and she's gonna make she makes other buttons and stuff and she just makes shit and i haven't seen a fucking zine in real life in so long i know do you ever make a zine no i never did i made a zine for um it's like a tribute to ray bradbury and delight combined yeah wow because those are two things you like that's what i liked when i was 16 so seeing a zine is like exciting it's very cool and i think you should i think we should all support zines you know what i did was i just assumed that candace made a zine for all the things I like instead of what she's interested in women in science.

This was, yeah, it was, it was specifically for me.

Well, it is a true crime subject.

Yes.

So.

And so fascinating.

If you get, it's called the nutshell.

What's the documentary called?

The Nutshell Studies.

You got to watch it.

Yeah.

She's, it's great.

Candace.

Fascinating.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Please keep remaining to be a badass.

Then we got.

Oh my God.

Thank you. studies you gotta watch it yeah she's it's great candace thank you thank you so much please keep remaining to be a badass then we got oh my god this amazing puzzle from holly um she said karen and georgia thanks so much for sharing your favorite murders i made a puzzle about mine thought you might like it like it yeah we fucking lost our minds i'm so excited i kind of like I kind of begged karen for it it's a it's a 3d puzzle of h.h holmes murder castle in chicago which is the best thing of all time so i think everybody probably knows but if you're if you just started liking true crime right h.h holmes they're i think they're to make the Devil in the White City movie with Leo DiCaprio.
And you can get this at where can you get her? The puzzle? Yeah, wait, wait, wait. OK, you can get Holly Carden dot com.
So it's H.O.L.L.Y.C.A.R.D.E.N. And I think she's going to start just making true crime puzzles.
It's amazing. I cannot wait to make this.
I'll take photos. It's very cool.
So anyway, she started off with H H Holmes, uh, murder castle, which you can watch the movie. Uh, it's the best story ever.
If you get creeped out by, by premeditated planned psycho murder, this is the story for you. And I would do it, but they did it on last podcast on the left.
I know. I am not.
It's been done a lot. It's been done a lot.
And it's very well known and a movie is going to come out. Yeah.
So we let, we let, we, it got taken care of. Yeah.
In our minds. And finally.
Oh my God. And then finally, Bethany, who may, Bethany Jones, I'm assuming these people are OK with their names being said.
Yeah, I think they want to shout out, which they absolutely. So Bethany Jones is from the base element makeup bath and body.
I would call it company. And she sent us her card says, I hope you like your namesake lipsticks.
I loved creating them while listening to your podcasts, all of your podcasts, one after the other, I twitch. Uh, and fittingly when I was done, my kitchen looked like a murder scene and I was smeared red to the elbows.
Um, I've got a bit rock and roll and made the skull bath bombs in your honor to see what an inspiration you are. Stay sexy.
Don't get murdered. It's so awesome.
This box smelled, we could smell the bath bombs from outside. That's how I knew it wasn't a bomb because I feel like they wouldn't go to the trouble of making it pleasant.
A soapy bomb. Oh my God.
I didn't think about that. Yeah, that's right.
You were right. See, you're right all along.
Psychic, but bombs can be good be good. Balms can be good.
So we just got a shit ton of lip gloss and lip balm and lip scrub and eyeshadow. A lot of them are named, like have quotes from the podcast.
There's a fucking lip balm called Elvis Want a Cookie. And once we got excited and exclaimed that when we saw it, Elvis lost his fucking mind because he thought he was getting one.
So I had to give him one. Yeah, we kept saying Elvis.
I won't say it again. I know.
But yeah, there's I mean, our names are on he on lip balms. This is this is right up my alley.
She's going to make them. She just wanted us to get the first ones, which is so fucking cool.
Yeah. So you can go to the the base element at Etsy.
Yeah. And by murderino and non murderino, you guys, we can have our own makeup line.
Fucking love this podcast from Bethany. It's so cool.
It's very cool. Thank you for our gifts.
Totally worth it to open up, to open you up to danger. I know.
And get that pot, that PO box. Hey, look, that's plenty of presence.
That's plenty i'm okay with the p i i talked to my therapist about it i really fucking lost my shit this last week i talked to her about it i got some pepper spray the reality is it's not gonna fucking i mean what are the chances that's gonna happen it's not then i get scared when you say that sorry all right if you really really want to find it and if you actually have something that you're making that's like legit, you can have the PO box.

Also, there's 80 million ways to contact us so that you could probably say, hey, here's

what I'm going to send you.

Totally.

And here's a copy of my driver's license so that if I do harm you in any way.

Right.

And now we have evidence.

I can be contacted.

Evidence.

It's all on the internet.

So that was present.

Present.

That was present corner. What we call present corner.
Okay, we're in. This is fun.
So we start opening like gifts from listeners, which I know scared the shit out of me in the very beginning. Yeah, clearly.
I mean, you're taking true precautions and then hurting yourself in the process. That sounds like me.
That sounds like me through and through. Taking precautions, hurting yourself on accident.
Yeah. I mean, I can relate.
I think that's very relatable. Also, I think we were doing a lot of those kinds of, okay, strangers are sending us big boxes.
We just got to go with God on this one and like play along. And I have to say this, we've been doing this for almost nine years.
We've been given a lot of amazing gifts, a lot of hilarious gifts, a lot of downright weird gifts. And I maybe shouldn't be saying this, but we've never gotten us scary gifts.
No, I've never felt threatened by a gift, except that doll that had the happy face and the sad face. But the person who gave it to us was hilarious.
And God, I wish I can remember her name, but also knew that that's what they were doing. We needed it.
Yeah, it was great. And do you remember we sent it to a listener? Yes, someone won it.
Who has that? If you won the scary two-faced doll, please send us an email of how your life has been going since it entered your home. We must know.
And actually, so what's really cool about these gifts that we just opened is that at Holly's store, who gave us the H.H. Holmes murder castle puzzle, is still active at hollycardon.com.
Yeah, she has a whole empire over there. Amazing.
Check that out. Yeah.

And also, we talked about The Devil in the White City, and we got so excited because

the movie was supposed to come out nine years ago.

It's never come out, but all the same people are still attached.

And it is essentially, it's Leonardo DiCaprio, and I think it's supposed to maybe be Scorsese.

I can't remember.

But it's a famously cursed project now.

Shut up.

Yeah.

Because I want to watch it now, though.

But I want it.

But I want it.

It's like,

Thank you. I can't remember.
But it's a famously cursed project now. Shut up.
Because I want to watch it now, though. I want it.
But I want it. It's like that idea.
I just saw TikTok on it. And there's a shot.
The opening TikTok, the opening picture of the TikTok was this, the scene from the statue's shoulder overlooking that big pond or lake or whatever they built in. In the state fair or the, what's it called? Fairgrounds? World's Fair.
Yes, exactly. For the World's Fair, but they built it like it was all white.
It's an incredible looking thing that like I got to actually see this one picture that I was like, oh my God. And then of course the Ferris wheel.
You know what's so crazy is that when this came out, this episode, TikTok didn't exist. Is that true? I'm making that up.
I think it's true. I think it's true.
I bet you it was. I wonder if Vine had even been shut down yet.
Oh, shit. Like Vine walked so that TikTok could run.
Remember when we were Vine stars? Were we? No, I don't know. We could make that up.
Pat Walsh was a Vine star. Was he? Yeah, he was.
Oh, that's so cute. He would get on there and sing little songs like, all the girls are going to a pizza party.
Yeah, Vine. Okay.
Legendary. So let's now, as we always do on this podcast, take a left turn because this episode is horrible.
It's horrifying. It's child murder abuse.
This is basically a listener warning, but it's not just about child murder. It involves brutal child abuse.
It's funny how our stories start to sync up at this point where it's like we both had the same mindset. And so this episode is especially horrible because of that.
But I also find it really interesting as I was reading through, it's clear that you and I are understanding how to talk about true crime in a way that we hadn't been taught. May I correct? Just starting to understand? Okay.
Starting to understand. Yes.
In a way that we weren't taught and that we were figuring out from listeners' notes and from the way it made us feel. Yes.
And so there's a lot of comments here that it's almost like you can hear us feeling out our own empathy. Right.
And what it means and what it doesn't excuse, but how to think about these stories. Yeah.
And so it is a different time completely. And I think you and I are clearly feeling our way through that.
I mean, I think about it all the time where, and we've talked about it a lot, but it's like growing up on quote unquote true crime and the way the media used to treat it was normal to us. That's just how it was.
Salacious. You're trying to, you know, sell these stories.
Killer-centric. Yeah.
Just kind of pop culture-y. Yeah.
And so us coming in from that stance in 2016, looking back now and looking back basically the whole time, it's just kind of like, why are we this disconnected? Why aren't we? And I mean, disconnected maybe isn't the right word, but it is like, yeah, you can hear us slowly starting to realize nothing is black and white, nothing straightforward. And at the same time, like, oh, you know, the woman from your story later went on and got to tell her story.
And it was a complete, like flipped that kind of very singular media narrative that we learned and kind of went with when it happened. Right.
Like the story can be nuanced without taking away the perpetrator's culpability. And you can understand a story and people's motivations in ways without saying that they didn't deserve the punishment or that justice exists and so does empathy.
But, you know, how do we look at that? And I think we had to do that in a different way for this podcast. Right.
And in a way that it's embarrassing to go, oh, I never, I didn't really think of the victim's family, but no one really did in a forthright way that we could have copied. Like everyone now gets to copy everybody else that caught up and is doing better and doing better.
Because of course, all of our anonymous internet friends have logged on to say do better many, many times. We said, okay, okay, okay.
You're right. We'll do our best.
All right. So let's get into Karen's story, a classic story, one that I can't think about without

thinking about you as a child because she truly does look exactly like you.

Yeah.

This is the story of Mary Bell.

There are probably a billion furniture options out there. We didn't count, but that number feels right.
So how do you find the perfect piece? Easy. You go to Article.
Article believes in delightful design for every home. And thanks to their online-only model, they have some really delightful prices too.
Article makes furniture shopping a breeze with its carefully selected styles, from mid-century modern to boho and everything in between. Check out their Neera dresser.
It's beautiful and practical, which is a deadly combination. You know we're hard stans of Article on this podcast.
Everyone knows that. We're like BFFs.
I mean, we couldn't rave more. And it's because everything is so classy, so beautifully made, affordable, and so user-friendly.
Like, you don't have to have style to, to like get stylish stuff from Article. They do it for you.
So like there's no worry there. Look at that near addresser on their website.
Just go and take a look at that one piece and you will see what we are talking about. It is as mid-century as you could get.
Seriously. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
To claim, visit article.com slash murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's A-R-T-I-C-L-E dot com slash murder to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
Goodbye. Look, we all fantasize about going off the grid, unplugging, maybe spending some time as a tried wife.
But let's be honest, we all need reliable wireless. And that's where Visible comes in.
Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. It's unlimited wireless that puts you in control.
You get unlimited data and hotspots so you can stay connected on the go. Visible runs on Verizon's 5G network, so you get great coverage, fast speeds, seamless connection.
We're talking about access to 4K streaming. The Visible Plus Pro plan is premium wireless without the premium cost.

Plus, it's all digital.

You manage your plan in the app and you can even switch your service from your phone.

It only takes about 15 minutes.

Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know?

Make the switch at Visible.com.

Plan starting at $25 a month.

For their best features, get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month.

Terms apply.

See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. Goodbye.
What if I told you the most important part of your spring cleaning routine takes place in your sock drawer? I still have socks from 1991. Oh no.
Well, this is for you, Karen. It's time to ditch your mismatched, tired old socks and refresh your collection with some Bombas.
You know what goes great with a new pair of spring socks? Fresh white t-shirts, waterproof slides, and a few pairs of buttery soft underwear. Bombas makes all that too.
Do you remember when we were recently at a podcasting party? Everyone was a podcaster, so everyone knew about Bombas. And one person in heels was like, I wish I literally had my Bombas.
And then someone else was like, they really are the best. We're podcasters.
We've all tried them. It's real.
Everyone was into them and wish they had them on at the party. I have a pair of slippers from Bombas from like a while ago.
And I bought a second pair for like house guest slippers, like just in case someone else gets cold and people love those slippers. So smart.
Bombas is going international. Enjoy worldwide shipping to over 200 countries.

Head over to bombas.com slash MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash MFM code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

Bombas.com slash MFM and use code MFM.

Goodbye.

Hey, do you want to talk about our favorite murders? We might as well. Skippers, come back to us.
It's time. I think you're first.
Is it me? I think so. The murder that I chose this week.
Yes, Karen. And my favorite murder is one that's always, it's been one that like the first time I read it, I couldn't, I would have to turn my eyes away from the page because it is, um, horrible and horrifying, but also like there's an underpinning of salaciousness to it that I thoroughly enjoy.
It's about Mary Bell, the child, child killer. Fuck.
Yeah. The childhood child killer.
Yes. Now, what I realized in looking through my researchers, my research searches today, I mean, from weeks ago.
Right. For when all that research you've been.
Just piles and piles. Every night I go to the city library, like Morgan Freeman, and I let the guy play.
It's the same one from Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters movie, right? The big, huge, cavernous, ghosty. Yes.
I go down in the basement where the very old dead ghost librarian is. Right.
Microfiche is involved. You scroll microfiche.
Just for hours. Hours.
So in the pictures of Mary Bell, which we should put up on the instagram page i will that's what i look like when i was little exactly so i've always had a bit of a connection to mary bell uh in in certain ways but i also know and we got called out um i think it was on i can't remember the woman the girl's name but the girl that shot up the the school i don't like mondays uh oh my god mary anyways sorry it um lisa that that girl we kind of got there's um a couple people are like we were being too sympathetic to her or being like too nice when normally we're mean if it's like a man and it's older we're mean and like hang him high I don't disagree with that I know I mean everyone has a lot to say about every fucking single thing but I can see that point I'm not gonna argue I agree well I brought it up because I was thinking is that how I'm gonna be about Mary Bell but the truth is I honestly believe that Mary Bell is a psychopath. I think she anytime she seems sympathetic, it's because she's trying to seem sympathetic.
Right. I think she is like I think she's nightmare.
Like we need to talk about Kevin. Yeah.
The bad seed. She is the reality of all of that fiction evil child.
Right. Like nothing can be done.
Now, I think there's a reason she's that way. I don don't she may have been born that way because they do talk about how she from an early age like didn't bond but she had this fucking crazy mother either way to me I'm I'm just want to say it at the start I'm not defending her I'm not defending Mary Bell okay but I also want to say another thing about it whenever there's like a childester or a murderer or someone, we talk about their past and we're like, yeah, that sucks.
I don't think we were softer on her. I don't either.
I think we're always like investigating the past of the person who's killing people. It doesn't exonerate them from...
But I think sometimes, you know, when it's personal opinion, which is all of this podcast is, sometimes more empathy will come out. Even if you have it, you won't express it.
Like, I don't have a ton of empathy for Richard Ramirez, even though he did get hit in the swing and he had the worst uncle in the world. Yeah.
Whatever. We're just saying it's understandable that this person didn't become a normal member of society.
Yes. And for me, that's to me yeah when you can when it's not just oh you were born with this defect where you do not have mirror neurons and you do not empathize with other human beings that's one thing but like if there's like a little path you could have been normal totally if you didn't experience this parent or this aunt or whatever is some

awful pit that you fell in in your childhood that to me that's like that's really what's fascinating that's the study that's the study yeah the the um the effect that they killed someone and murdered them and raped and all these horrible things that's the effect you know there's cause and effect. Yeah.
Etc.

Yeah. And the cause is fascinating.

Right. And if I had

A in education, raped and all these horrible things. That's the effect.
You know, there's a cause and effect. Yeah.

Et cetera.

Yeah. And the cause is fascinating.

Right.

And if I had a,

an education,

B didn't have ADD,

I would probably read up on it a ton and become some type of a,

of a learned expert about it.

Me too.

And instead,

instead I have,

I work in TV,

so I am rewarded for not paying attention to anything. But we do have a true crime podcast.
So I think we're good. I think we're basically doing that.
Yeah, we're doing our best. Anyhow.
Sorry, go on. No.
So I've, I've always found Mary Bell fucking fascinating. so this happened in 1968 oh actually i thought it happened a lot longer ago that's cool 68 yeah and it happened in new in the inner city suburb of newcastle in england that's stephen king's town right no no no in england never mind newcastle no newcastle rock it's castle rock oh yeah castle rock's the yeah he's all about maine can we just strike all of that from the record yes absolutely we're gonna go in and edit this down so good um we're not no we're not at all and we never do um okay so she was born to a unwed, unstable 17-year-old sex worker named Betty McCricket.
And Betty used to leave her daughter with relatives and acquaintances, just dumped her off anytime she could. Because she had to go she I guess she would go into Glasgow a lot and work as as a sex worker even as a non-17 year old sex worker that I was the thought of having a child at 17 nightmare nightmare it's just it's what a great opportunity for a ton of bad decisions.
Totally. Like this one, where she once gave Mary to a woman she met on the street outside an abortion clinic.
Shut up. Yeah.
Betty was doing it. So apparently their household was filthy and sparsely furnished.
and Betty betty's family members uh said that betty tried to kill mary more than once in her first few years of life and tried to make it look accidental so they all became very suspicious when mary quote-unquote fell out a window head trauma uh possibly and also when she accidentally consumed sleeping pills? Um, so they think she could have definitely gotten brain damage because she had sleeping pills, iron pills, and apparently Mary, um, sorry, Betty would feed the pills to Mary and tell them they were candy. Oh, for fuck's sake.
Um, there are some people who now say that they think Betty probably had Munchausen's by proxy, which is the fascinating disease where a parent gets addicted to the attention and sympathy that they get from a sick child.

And so they make the child sick on purpose.

It's basically what happened in the movie Seven when the barfing girl finally brings him back to her house. That's a great scene.
Um, no, not seven. Fucking.
The other number movie, the sixth sense. Our brains are sinking up because that was just, Oh, you know, it's so hilarious.
Yeah. We're, we're, it's like's like our mistake brains are like, I did the same thing where when I was talking about the Polly class murder, I called it I called it Cloverfield, which is a movie and the city name where her body was found is Cloverdale.
And Adrian, my friend. The whole time you called it that yeah i think but i think i only said it once

adrian texted me and she's like dude it's cloverdale you you went there for softball games what are you doing and i just like she's like i'm the only one that noticed but seriously this is not a monster movie yeah grow up maybe you were just trying to protect the town so people like so looky-loos wouldn't show up there that's right that's what you were doing just stay away from Cloverfield.

So,

bad news, obviously.

And in Like, so looky-loos wouldn't show up there. That's right.
That's what you were doing. Just stay away from Cloverfield.
Yeah. So bad news, obviously, in her upbringing.
And so, of course, at school, Mary was known as a chronic liar, disruptive people. She, on occasion, would voice her desire to hurt people.
She did a lot of kicking and punching and lying. And so all the kids, they would make fun of her a lot because she was just basically a monster and a mess.
And later on, it, sorry, I was just trying to figure out where, when a good, but basically later on it came to be discovered that Mary's mother would use her

as Later on, it is trying to figure out where when a good but basically later on it came to be discovered that Mary's mother would use her and sell her in prostitution as well from the age of four. Holy shit.
She I guess this is another thing that does fascinate me. This is another thing that like that kind of trauma can affect you and does affect your personality.
Completely. So she was subjected to really awful things at such a young age that they think that that that probably plays into the psychopathy and the behavior.
Yeah. You're like, this isn't a safe world.
Nothing is safe. I need to fucking defend myself.
And I want to start hurting others the way I'm being hurt and it's a way that's normal it's the way children yeah it's the way children communicate that they're being hurt right when they're no they know they're not allowed to talk about it right um fascinating totally okay so on may 25th uh 1968 two boys playing in an abandoned house found the corpse of four-year-old Martin Brown lying in an upstairs room. Mary Bell and her friend Norma Bell, who was not related to her, they just had the same last name, followed the boys inside the house.
And when the police arrived, the two girls had to be ordered out. So they really liked looking at this dead body.
How old were they? Mary was just about to turn 11 and Norma Bell was 13 but Mary was the dominant of the two like a little more mature and smart there was no obvious cause of death so it was assumed that Martin Brown had swallowed pills from a discarded bottle which was found nearby nearby. So the next day, Norma Bell's father caught Mary choking Norma, and he slapped her face and sent her home.
She was choking her so bad. Holy shit.
The day after this little boy died. So four days later, Mary Bell appeared at the Brown residence asking to see Martin.
And when she was reminded that Martin was dead, wait, she showed up, she showed up at the dead boy's house asking to see him. And when the adult that answered the door reminded her that Martin was dead, or it was the mother that answered the door.
And when the mother said, he's dead, Mary said, Oh, I know he's dead. I want to see him in his coffin.
Oh my God. Can you, what would you do? I'd scream.
I'd run screaming. I mean, a little girl too.
Yeah. Who's yeah.
Okay. So two months later, three-year-old Brian Howe goes missing and immediate search is mounted.
And Mary Bell tells Brian's sister that he might be playing on a heap of concrete blocks that had been dumped out in a nearby vacant lot. And which is where he was discovered dead from manual strangulation, legs and stomach and penis mutilated with a razor and a pair of

scissors the police discover at the scene the letters m and n were scratched into his stomach so as the investigation narrows mary uh so so um somebody that had been walking by said they saw kids around that pile of stones that day. And then when they took the three year old's body into the corner, he said it looks like he's strangled, but it's such light force that I think we're looking at a child murderer.
So then the cops went around and started interviewing all the kids in the neighborhood. And Mary and Norma were both dinged right away because their stories kept changing.
Mary acted super weird. They got freaked out by how creepy and weird she was.
And Norma couldn't stop giggling. Holy shit.
So Mary, when the investigation got narrowed on to Mary Bell, she suddenly remembered seeing an eight-year-old boy with Brian on the day he died. And she said that the boy hit Brian for no reason.
And that she said that same boy had been playing with broken scissors. But she was naming a specific boy.
She was basically trying to pin it on him. But he had been playing with broken scissors um uh the but the boy she was naming a specific

boy she was basically trying to pin it on him but he had been at the airport that afternoon and so the thing that mary didn't know is that the scissors were confidential evidence no one knew about the scissors oh mary that wasn't public when you're a fucking 10 year old murderer is that you didn't, you don't understand?

You can't keep your shit in line?

Dude. that wasn't public when you're a fucking 10 year old murderer is that you didn't you don't understand you can't keep your shit in line dude yeah so baffling she essentially implicates herself uh with the scissor comment and she had described them exactly so she's trying to pin it on the other boy yeah and in doing so she's like they were were silver colored and there was something wrong with them.
Like one leg was either broken or bent. So she basically describes the exact scissors to a T.
I mean, smart, smart, smart investigating by the cops that they like figured this shit out pretty quickly. And can you imagine sitting in an in a room across from an 11 year old girl when you see this picture, big blue eyes, little button nose, kind of vacant.
Just think baby Karen. Just think baby Karen.
I was a precious lamb. But she's lying to you.
So you're buying her at first, and then she does the old inglorious bastards holding up a three. And you don't even want it to be true like you're not even like we're gonna get this guy no it's like wait a second you just said this wrong thing creepy enough that the coroner says you're probably gonna want to look for a kid because a kid strangled a three-year-old so you probably don't want it to be true you probably have children of your own and this little girl is like yeah the scissors i mean the chill that would go down your back so so uh okay i did the slidey thing again which i always do so um brian howe was buried on august 7th and the the investigative detective was named Detective Dobson.
And he was there. And he says, Mary Bell was standing in front of the Howe's house when the coffin was brought out.
I, of course, was watching her. And it was when I saw her there that I knew I did not dare risk another day.
She stood there laughing, Laughing and rubbing her hands. I thought, my God, I've got to bring her in or she'll do another one.
Holy shit. So they bring in Mary Pell.
Why are you laughing? Psychopath? Because it's me. She's also rubbing her hands together right now.
No, because I'm picturing it and it's like how they why don't they make this movie it's the creepiest thing of all time seriously this is like the ring except for the girl has her hair back out of her face and she's like she thinks she's getting away with it she wanted to kill that little kid she killed him and then then she wanted to see his dead body carried out of the house. It's just, what's so crazy is the like, you know, when adults kill, they like try really hard to hide it and try to outsmart people.
That's like what you do. But this little person who, I guess, you can argue didn't understand that either death was permanent or what it meant.
Maybe, maybe, maybe, or she enjoyed the feeling so much that she had done it. She, you know, cause there was some killer that we talked about where they said, I want people to feel on the outside the way I feel on the inside.
Was that the, one of those Cheshire murders? Yeah. No.
or was it the person you talked about last week no either way facts this is uh factual factual fact based um it's that thing of like when you finally feel right in the world is when like that's how she felt right she killed that she had the power to take his life away and put him in that box.

She finally had power.

But she also had to be a little bit like arrested in her.

And yes, she couldn't be smart enough.

She couldn't have been smarter than a 10 year old.

She was just didn't understand.

Oh, no.

I'm wrong.

You don't think so.

Go on.

Because this is where it gets crazy. Oh, god this is where? This is where well this is where it shows that she was raised by two criminals because her mother ended up marrying um I think his name was Billy Bell and he was like a career criminal and so they clearly talked about arrested, going in and out of jail and all

this stuff. Cause when she's arrested, first of all, when they say you're going to be charged with murder, she said, that's all right by me.
Um, and, uh, she, she, sorry. When she was in jail

There was a stray cat in jail Elvis cover your ears yeah Elvis you're not gonna like this she grabbed the cat tightly by the neck and the guard told her not to hurt the cat and Mary allegedly replied oh she doesn't feel that in any way i like hurting little things that can't fight back in another incident a policewoman said that mary said she'd like to be a nurse quote because then i can stick needles into people i like hurting people oh my god so there was kind of a naive quality about it then also the jailers once she was in there she calmed down a little bit after a while and a lot of the jailers liked her the guards you know because they said she was very smart she's she was very sharp but um she was a chronic bedwetter oh yeah and she got one of the pieces, probably two if we count those being overdosed on drugs by your mother. And dropped out of a window.
And dropped out of a window. Sure.
Probably got two. At least.
Um. What's the other one? Fires? Fire, yeah.
Okay. No, no report of fire on her.
But, um, she was terrified of going to sleep because she was afraid she was going to wet the bed. And she said to one of the guards, I usually do.
And at home, her mother would humiliate her anytime she wet the bed. So she would rub her daughter's face in the pee when she found it.
And she would hang the mattress outside so the neighborhood would see it. So when they went to trial, Norma was acquitted of all charges.
And Mary was convicted of two counts of manslaughter. So I think it, they say that Norma was there.
Norma had like eight brothers and sisters or some huge family and their whole family was there supporting her. And she did a lot of crying on the stand and saying, Mary did it.
Mary did it. And Mary did the same thing or saying Norman did it.
But all she had was her lunatic mother who was wearing a blonde wig and would freak out so much and cry and do all these things that her wig would fall off. And then she would get up and run out of the courtroom and then come back.
And so because of that Munchausen's by proxy, like this was her drama. She was basically, you know, say in the very slight chance that Mary wasn't guilty, she was condemning her anyway, because no one had sympathy for that family.
Whereas everyone was like, oh, this little girl's just been set up by Mary Bell. Yeah.
And then in the tabloids, Mary Bell just became the just the face of evil for years and years. They didn't have anywhere to put her because they didn't have they they had never had to deal with sending an 11 year old girl to jail.
So there was like lots of places for juvie for little boys, but none for little girls. So they had to keep her, they kept her in like a separate quarters in a, in a boy's detention center for a long time until she was in her teens.
When she was in her teens, she escaped jail for a little while with two other boys. But then they were only gone for two weeks.
And then they went back. She spent up until her, like, I can't find it now.
I think it was like in her mid-20s in jail. And then when she got out, all of England was like freaking out.
They were super pissed. She made money off a book that someone wrote about her again they were like we need to pass laws you know whatever she got out and then what she ended up becoming a grandmother like a mother and a grandmother she got pregnant i don't think she got married and then she was did she change her name there was they passed a thing where they kept her yeah she's she now lives under a pseudonym right and they like the british people wanted that repeal they wanted to make her live as herself oh but they they whatever you they continued the ruling that she could live under a pseudonym for the rest of her life.
Okay, wow, we are back. Karen, do you have any updates? I wanted to know, like, where is she now? So bad.
No one knows. It's good that we don't.
Yes. However, there's this part of me that wants to know.
I know.

I mean, like, that's like the other media training that we have, which is kind of like, this is, now we get the 15-year update, the 30-year update, like, whatever. But no, the adult Mary Bell and her daughter remain anonymous.
They're protected under an order from the UK's high court. So I think that's all good.
I mean, I was talking to Alison Agassi, our writer, about this story and how like this child was raised with a mother who was actively trying to kill her all the time and horribly abusing her. And then it's like, it's just mind-blowing to be like that if that's your perspective and that's how you get treated.
We can't know. It's hard to imagine because we take for granted that we were picked up and held and cared for and looked in the eyes as children.
Psychology in the past 10 years, at least for myself, is learning that the tools you learned as a child that you had to learn that helped you get through that period were actually helpful. And so in a way, this empathy that Mary Bell was able to turn off completely and have no care about anyone else and not understand other people's feelings was actually beneficial to her because she was being horribly abused.
It just turned into hurting other people as well, you know? Right. which is, I think, kind of a common thread in all these stories.
You can't consistently hurt a child and think that that child should just be resilient and, hey, they're kids, they'll get over it. It doesn't work that way.
Yeah. The tools that you learn to protect, can turn on you and aren't always positive.

Right.

Also, they're tools that you're just getting.

Like, and then as you grow up, you later, when you realize that of like, I don't need this anymore.

It can be like shameful or embarrassing.

But it's like, but that's just the human experience.

It's like, you just do it until you know better.

That's what everyone's doing. And you think it's who you are.

It's your personality. I'm talking about myself at this point about like dissociating.
I'm only ever talking about myself. All the time.
And that's yours. I'm talking about yourself all the time.
It really helps. It's like you don't realize it isn't your personality.
It's just like your learned behavior because it fucking helps. It helps.
Well, also, I had that realization about five years ago where it's like, oh, that's right. Stand-up comedy and wanting to be a comedian was a coping mechanism.
Right. What? What? I could have just been like a marine biologist like I wanted to.
You don't think marine biology is a fucking coping mechanism too? I think it is. Oh, just staring at whales all day.
Oh, you love a whale. Oh, well, I hope your childhood was great.
Oh, I guess. I guess.
I guess you can focus on kelp all the time. You're not terrified of the ocean? Well, congratulations.
Must be nice. Must be nice.
Okay. Okay.
Oh, this guy. This story.
Oh. We have to now go into, I think we talked about it at the time.
I think we have talked about it multiple times since, I will say it now, potentially one of the most nightmarish, horrible human story ever. Just absolutely terrible.
George is about to cover the death of Lisa Steinberg. Look, we all fantasize about going off the grid, unplugging, maybe spending some time as a trad wife.
But let's be honest, we all fantasize about going off the grid,

unplugging, maybe spending some time as a trad wife.

But let's be honest, we all need reliable wireless.

And that's where Visible comes in.

Visible is the ultimate wireless hack.

It's unlimited wireless that puts you in control.

You get unlimited data and hotspots

so you can stay connected on the go.

Visible runs on Verizon's 5G network

so you get great coverage, fast speeds, seamless connection. We're talking about access to 4K streaming.
The Visible Plus Pro plan is premium wireless without the premium cost. Plus, it's all digital.
You manage your plan in the app, and you can even switch your service from your phone. It only takes about 15 minutes.
Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know? Make the switch at Visible.com. Plan starting at $25 a month.
For their best features, get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month. Terms apply.
See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. Goodbye.
You love your cat, but you don't love the smell of their litter box. The solution, get a dog.
Karen, I tried that and it actually doesn't work. The real solution is Pretty Litter.
Pretty Litter is the high-performance cat litter that controls odors, absorbs moisture, and changes color to help detect potential health issues in your cat. And Pretty Litter is ultra-absorbent, lightweight, low dust, and one six-pound bag lasts up to a month.
And the best part, Pretty Litter ships free right to your door so you'll never run out. So this is the kind of cat family I live in.
And the cat ladies, my sister and I are, I was at her house over the weekend, and she showed me her brand new, beautiful, like robotic litter box. And we were both like oohing and aahing over it.
And she uses pretty litter in it. And so there wasn't dust everywhere, even though this robot like mixes it up on its own.
It's magic. It's a true test.
Yes. And Pretty Litter made it so that the whole room wasn't covered in disgusting kitted litter dust.
So I was impressed. Pretty Litter helps keep your house smelling fresh and clean.
Try it. You will love it.
Go to prettylitter.com slash MFM to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. That's prettylitter.com slash MFM to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.
prettylitter.com slash MFM. Terms and conditions apply.
See site for details. Goodbye.
Days are getting longer and nights are getting shorter and that means there's less time for all your night stuff. Like doom scrolling, rewatching your favorite comfort show for the hundredth time and of course making dinner.
But Hungry Root is here so you have more time for your night stuff. Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper and nutritionist all wrapped into one.
They take care of the weekly grocery shopping and recommend groceries and meals tailored to you. I love that they take even the decision making out of your hand, because if you're not great at cooking, if you're not experienced at making yourself dinner and food and feeling good about it, you're not going be able to like pick out your groceries.
So you're like, I like this. I like that.
I hate lamb. I hate broccoli.
I love Brussels. And they're like, okay, great.
This is what you want to eat. And you're like, yes, this is what I want to eat.
And then they send you perfect meals like zesty bison avocado lettuce wraps, crunchy veggie chorizo tacos. You are going to love Hungry Root.
Take advantage of

our exclusive offer. For a limited time, get 40% off your first box, plus get a free item in every

box for life. Go to HungryRoot.com slash MFM and use code MFM.
That's HungryRoot.com slash MFM,

code MFM to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. HungryRoot.com

slash MFM, code MFM.

Goodbye.

What's your favorite murder of the week?

Hi.

Mine is also a child murder.

Is it really?

Yeah.

Man, this is the wrong episode for parents.

It is very weird.

That's crazy.

It's very weird.

But this is, this is by, by this is a parent a parental murder and this one stuck with me for has stuck with me i've read about it for a long time because there's a photograph of the little girl who gets killed um oh you're not oh you're saying the child is murdered the child murder got it child murder yes got it so there's a photo of the little girl the day before her death that really fucking stuck with me i hope that do you hear that yes it sounds like thunder my fucking downstairs neighbor plays uh some video game world of war call of duty is that a thing yes call of duty and it's just so if you hear that i'm sorry so lisa steinberg this poor little angel baby. That's the one.
That's the one. Oh my God.
It's heartbreaking. This is the worst story.
Okay. Sorry.
It's okay. No, you're right.
I'm breathing. Not cause I'm okay.
So it's in 1981, 45 year old Hedda Nussbaum and 46 year old Joel Steinberg, who was a defense attorney who sometimes handled adoption cases, Joel was. They took custody of an infant girl that they named Lisa and they illegally adopted her.
The child's birth mother had paid Steinberg, the attorney, a $500 legal fee to place the child with a Roman Catholic family, but they just kept her instead. They were Jewish.
I don't know. I don't think that matters, but they, whatever.
Anyways. So this Hedda and Joel were a well-educated, they were upper, upper class New York couple.
They lived in Greenwich village in New York city. At school, Lisa's teachers said she was bright and friendly, but they worried about her writing at school with bruises and chunks of hair missing from her head.
And she would tell them that her little brother, who was also a younger, it was an adopted child, had hit her. And none of them had ever made reports of abuse, which changed a lot of stuff in the system.
So there's a photo from Halloween, the day before this big incident happens, that one of the teachers took of Lisa. And it's just a photo of her at her desk.
It's Halloween. All the other children are dressed up and she's wearing her normal clothes and she's just kind of staring off.
And it's this with this sad face, like an empty, sad face. And the next day, on November 1st, 1987, Hedda, the mother calls the police to report that her daughter had choked on food.
That's what she said. And when the police arrived, they found six-year-old Lisa Steinberg unconscious and she had multiple bruises on her body.
And the mother, Hedda, claim that she had fallen a lot lately on her roller skates.

So according to initial reports on November 1st at around 7 p.m., Joel Steinberg had somehow rendered Lisa unconscious with severe blows to the head. And what Hedda later said as the reasoning was that Lisa wanted to go, quote, Lisa wanted to go to dinner with her father, but he did not want to take her.
And then he inflicted the head injury because she wouldn't stop bugging him about wanting to go to dinner before he left the, but before he left the apartment, Lisa was unconscious. So he left and the mother Hedda was alone with the kid who was dying for roughly 10 hours, failing to notify police or medical personnel.
Joel left and came back many times. They were freebasing cocaine sometimes together because they were also like weird drug addicts.
Yeah. And she says she didn't, Hedda said she didn't call authorities because she believed that Joel had supernatural healing powers and she was waiting for him to come home and fix her, which we'll get into in a bit.
Don't do drugs. If you're going to do drugs, don't adopt children, stupid motherfuckers.
so around 6 a.m. the next morning lisa stopped breathing and shortly after steinberg called 9-1-1 at nussbaum's urging um lisa died four days later in the hospital and it was a terminal determined the cause of death was a head injury apparently inflicted by what they say was a rubber-headed.
Holy shit. I know it's heartbreaking.
Um, the same Vincent doctors, this is according to Joyce Johnson, who wrote a book called what Lisa knew the doctor showed a quote map of pain on her body. Yeah.
I know this poor little thing, man. I wish, I wish I, they also, let's see.

The house was filthy and contained large quantities of cocaine and other drugs. And the couple was arrested on child abuse charges.
New York law state stated at the time that if one parent beats a child and the other stays silent about it, each is equally guilty. That's good.
I know. but Hedda was late.

I mean,

is it because is that giving any understanding to the to the other parent who didn't do it who was probably abused as well and victimized it we don't know we don't know but here's the here's the so hedda was later found to have been abused by joel throughout their relationship she suffered from nine broken ribs a broken jaw and a broken nose and if you look at photos of her at this trial and right after this happened this person is fucking disfigured yes like this person's that she had to get uh cartilage from her quote good ear taken out to reconstruct her nose which had. Because he'd punched her so many times?

Yeah.

Oh, fuck.

So she wasn't prosecuted due to the belief that years of abuse had rendered her incompetent at the time of the murder.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

And yeah, we'll talk about fucking culpability, man.

Instead, she was sent to a psychiatric hospital.

In exchange for her testimony against Joel, Hedda was not prosecuted. And Joel was charged with first-degree manslaughter.
So, the trial. Okay.
Go ahead. Why not murder? I don't know.
I don't need that.

Okay.

Oh, you know why? Because later it was said that if Hedda had called the ambulance at that moment, Lisa would have survived for sure.

So it wasn't his intent to murder her when he did kill her. Right.
Jesus Christ. Breathing, breathing, breathing, breathing.
What's around us right now? Seafoam green wall. We're here in 2016 and not in 80s New York in this horrible apartment.
What do you feel under your hand? I just remembered as you were describing her appearance, there was an amazing article in Oprah's magazine that she had in a spam wrote. Well, she wrote a book.
Did she? Yeah. I bet that was just publicity then.
And it was just an excerpt from the book. It was unbelievable.
She wrote a book about, she does like talks and about being abused, abusive relationships. And she wrote a book about, about it that I didn't really want to include because I don't want to make this about, okay.
You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. But I, but we, you know, I'm not, she wrote a book.
It's just the side by side of her when she was young, when she first met him and when she was arrested is she looks like an old witch and she was this gorgeous young New York woman. Yeah.
When, when she met him, I mean, this is the problem is I've never been, it's not a problem. This is great.
I've never been in an abusive relationship before. So I don't know that fucking the head games and the, the, and the, um, the way you have to rationalize things in your head because this person you care about you know is

doing these things and you want to believe that they that they have no control over that they're

not doing it on purpose that they would never hurt you otherwise your whole fucking world is

just shattered and that's right insane and on top of that they're using strong they're freebasing at

this point i mean freebasing cocaine is like you're you're doing crack you're crackhead you're

a psychopath yeah okay um and they were there was also some weird like cult stuff and they had been

Thank you. Like you're, you're doing crack.
You're a crackhead. You're a psychopath.
Yeah. Okay.

Um, and there were, there was also some weird like cult stuff and they had been convincing

her that she like mind games with her, that she had been, um, sleeping around and had

been, um, hypnotized and there was just some very fucked up mind games with the schedule.

So, so, all right.

So the trial, so this is actually the first trial which made new york which turned new york into the 44th state to allow television cameras in the courtroom oh hell yeah fucking watch like people tuned in constantly for this so during the trial they said that lisa's injuries were severe but she would have almost certainly survived if given prompt medical treatment. So this is probably why he had manslaughter.

So the jury wanted to convict Steinberg on the more serious charge of second degree murder,

but they couldn't because, so they could only convict him of the second most serious charge,

which is first degree manslaughter. So the judge then sentenced him to the maximum penalty then available.
Guess how long that is, Karen? God, is it seven years? Eight and one third to 25 years in prison. And he's a lawyer, right? Yeah.
Yeah. So on two occasions, so Steinberg served his time.

On two occasions, he was denied discretionary parole because he never expressed any remorse for the killing. He never said he was, he hit her.
He was always an argument that something must have happened with Hedda. Yeah.
Wow. the girl.
But on June 30th, 2004, he was paroled under the state's, quote, good time law, meaning

he did good time. He was a good inmate.
Congratulations. You killed a kid.
He wasn't a good father. He was a rotten father and husband.
That's insane. All right.
Okay. It mandates the release of inmates who exhibit good behavior while incarcerated after having served as little as two thirds of the maximum possible sentence.
After his release, he moved to Harlem. And he works in the construction industry.
He continues to maintain his innocence. But there was this really great New York Magazine article where this journalist, I don't have his name, was like, clearly like this guy's full of shit.
He was interviewing his attorney who's like just a fucking dick lick motherfucker. Excuse me.
Why now? What? Why now? We say fuck every five seconds. Why excuse myself? Excuse me.
Excuse me for that that something about dick lick motherfucker was a little more you that was that was one step too far weirdly that's something i say on the regular dick lick motherfucker learn it um in the magazine article he like needled joel and finally steinberg finally admitted that he quote pushed his daughter a little quote with the soft pad you know on your palm he finally kind of gave in because the whole article they were trying to the the lawyer was trying to make it seem like Joel was the victim of this like media slander to make Heather look innocent and him look guilty and it's like just what piece of shit. Yeah.
In 2003, Steinberg was ordered to pay Lisa's biological mother, the one who gave her up for adoption, 15 million for the, quote, heinous, outrageous crime of murdering Lisa. Wow.
Which I'm a little bit like, do you deserve that money? No. But still, I like the idea he has has to pay and then but then a civil suit hetta um was wanted to collect 3.6 million from joel for eight years of beatings she said she endured and the permanent disfigurement she has suffered which at that point i'm a little like this child died you need to walk the fuck away yeah

or am I being insensitive to I mean there's there's a lot there's a lot of ways that we can offend people in this but here's this is my stance because I remember money is like the wanting money is bullshit yeah because you I understand that she was in an abusive relationship I also understand that she was a drug addict, which is a lot of people don't have empathy for that. I do.
And I understand that you go into a place that is inexplicable and indefensible a lot of the time. Yes.
You don't ask for money for doing that. You make reparations, you fix your life, You make your amends.
You clear away the wreckage of your past. You don't ask to be paid for the thing you fucked up.
The thing about it is, is like you were an adult in this relationship as mind fucked as you were, as victimized as you were. You stayed in it.
You chose to stay in it until this awful thing happened. If that hadn't happened, you would have stayed in it and the children would have still been abused.
It just so happens that Lisa died, that you got out of it. Right.
And there's so many examples, I'm sure listeners, too, who have figured out a way to get out of abusive relationships and how fucking difficult it is and awful it is, but you fucking do it. And that's your choice as an adult.
Okay, we're back. Yeah, it's hard to listen to us talk about and debate even with ourselves and our own conscience, like who deserves what and why, as you know, when it comes to justice and reparations.
And, you know, it's just such a different, it's such a different mindset back in 2016 than it is today. Well, it's just ignorance.
I mean, like, it's not, I don't think you and I have ever pretended to be anything or not. And so when we were having those kinds of conversations, it's literally just, and I think why people like this podcast, we're just regular people that are like sharing our kind of like, oh, I guess this is what I think about this.
And I think that's why listeners like it because then they literally can be like, here's what I think about it. And here's why your answer either delights me or disgusts me.
And then it's like, oh, right. What are we doing? Like we're doing critical thinking together.
Yeah. I mean, we got, I remember us getting follow-up stuff about Hedda Nussbaum and really good information that was like, it really did feel like the beginning of bigger picture, more to consider.
It's not just you and I sitting in your apartment chatting. Totally.
And you know what's interesting to me about this is I am in the middle of J.C. Dugard's memoir, A Stolen Life.
And it is harrowing and difficult and mirrors this story in a lot of ways and is really even now in 2025 opening my eyes to the abuse that victims endure. And JC just goes through this thing that is mind-blowing, and I will never understand.
And you can never understand unless you've been through it. And just the space you need to leave open for people who have been in abusive relationships.
And that, just the understanding that you will never understand. Yes.
So I'm trying to wrap my brain around that and looking at the story from that angle as well. Yeah.
It was really eye-opening to me. Really quick.
Did I ever tell you about Adrienne's mother-in-law and J.C. Dugard? No.
Okay. I'll try to make this as fast as possible.
Adrienne, my sister's friend Adrienne. Yeah.
Who she's also my friend. That's now the longer title that she has.
Her mother-in-law, Pushpa, is this brilliant woman who— She's the teacher? She is—no, that's my sister. No, no, your English teacher.
Wasn't Adrienne's mom the English teacher? That's Adrienne's mom, Judy. Oh, who are you talking about? Her mother-in-law.
Oh, got it. Okay.
Pushpa. Pushpa.
And Pushpa was a parole officer in that area. And that's a big deal in the story.
It's a big deal because Pushpa got sent to that house and she went back and said, something's not right. They wouldn't let me in the front door.
She actually tried to look over their shoulder. He was like at the front door, wouldn't let her look inside.
Then she went around, even though he was like, no, no, it's all fine. So then she went around and peeked over the fence, saw the tarps, went back to work and was like, you got to go in there.
Something's wrong there, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, we don't have any cause.
They basically didn't listen to her. And you know, you've got to be a nosy neighbor.
Well, and also, like, that kind of thing where it's, like, especially that specific situation where she was held there for so long. Yeah.
It's so awful. And, like, the idea of at any point something could have changed.
Yeah. And it was just, like, somebody on the other end being, like, it's not that big of a deal.
Right. Is so frustrating.
That's a huge part of the story is like in her mind,

it's like no one cared.

Yeah.

No one was looking.

And it was just,

it was just a peek over the fence away

because they didn't realize

that the backyard went on further

than it did.

Right.

There's like a false.

Just where she was being kept.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's incredible.

I mean,

be the nosy neighbor,

you guys.

That's the,

Pushpa's the one where

when Nora was like five years old,

Thank you. Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wow. That's incredible.
I mean, be the nosy neighbor, you guys. That's the, Pushpa's the one where when Nora was like five years old, Pushpa asked her what she wanted to be for, what she wanted to be when she grew up.
And Pushpa's a Sri Lankan. And Nora was like, I want to be a cheerleader.
And Pushpa goes, don't be a cheerleader, be a doctor. So we say that to Nora all the time.
And she will be. You fucking know it.
I think it worked. I think it worked on her.
I think like just being able to accept that you have blind spots, not that you're bad for them, not that it means anything except for that you're a human being, but just like the humility of going, yeah, I must. And I know I do.
And the way I see the world is just that. The way I see the world is from my own experiences.
And that's a very singular experience. And also, you know, having the internet, suddenly, like the world was like, there's more than your experience.
And here it is right here. And now you should have known this already.
And like, it really was this very insane dividing line of like, all of a sudden,

there were people snapping their fingers being like, you should be smarter than this. And it's like, I know I should be smarter than this.
Like, it's crazy. So yeah, those kinds of like,

I could never imagine. Therefore, I don't even know.

You don't know what you don't know.

You don't know what you don't know.

Okay. I have a couple case updates.
The baby from the story, Baby Mitchell, Lisa's adopted younger brother, was returned to his birth mom. He was given a new name, and he eventually graduated with honors from his high school, earned a college degree, got married, and pursued a career in banking.
So, thank God for that. Thank God.
Around the time Joel was being released from prison, which fucking Jesus Christ, Hedda Nussbaum changed her name and moved out of New York so he wouldn't be able to find her. Her exact whereabouts are unknown.
And you heard us talking about abusive relationships. So if you or anyone you know is struggling to leave an abusive partner, we wanted to give you a few resources.

Yeah, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is free, confidential, available 24 hours a day, and it's 1-800-799-SAFE, 7233. So that's 1-800-799-SAFE.
and their website is thehotline.org

where you can find resources

and also get involved in supporting survivors

either through volunteering or, hey, donation.

Oh, we do those.

Shall we?

Let's please.

$10,000 to thehotline.org, the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

Yeah, and if you have anything to give this New Year's, that would be amazing.

I think that's an incredibly helpful charity to support. Definitely that was a heavy episode sure was at least we ended it on a donation we ended it on donation and a happy new year that's right hey happy new year everybody stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye Elvis do you want a cookie? have you ever felt that uneasy anxiety when the 4 p.m.
hour strikes? The creeping meal-related distress that happens when you don't quite feel prepared? You know, dinner dread. Let's get rid of that unpleasant feeling forever with one word.
Stouffers. No matter what happens, you'll have a dinner plan that everyone loves with Stouffers.
Some chicken enchiladas or a cheesy chicken and broccoli pasta bake is always welcome. Whether it's plan A or plan delicious.
When the clock strikes dinner, think Stouffer's. Shop now for family favorites.
PayPal lets you pay all your pals, like your graduation gifters. Who's paying for the mattress topper? You mean the beanbag chair? Aren't we getting a mini fridge? Can we create a pool on PayPal? It lets us collect the money before we buy.
Ooh, yes, that's smart. Glad we can agree on something.
Easily pool, split, and send money with PayPal. Get started in the PayPal app.
A PayPal account is required to send and receive money. A balance account is required to create a pool.
Retirement is full of questions. How much is enough? What if I want to keep working or take on something new entirely? And what about taxes or medical costs? T.
Rowe Price's Confident Conversations on Retirement podcast explores all the ways you can be open to what retirement could be. Listen in for insights on retirement income, firsthand financial perspectives, and even the unretirement trend.
Subscribe wherever

you get your podcasts or learn more at troprice.com slash podcast. Retire with confidence.