Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 24: …And Twenty Justice Four All

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Visit iHeartCountry. then we return to the present.
It is a very painful process. It is a painful process.
Today, we're recapping painfully episode 24, which we named and 20 justice for all. Yeah.
Fucking classic. This came out on Thursday, July 7th, 2016.
So get ready to defy the laws of space and time because now we're all going to be day one listeners. Okay, let's do it.
Let's listen to the intro of episode 24. Do you want a podcast? Do you want to start a podcast? Hey, do you want a podcast? Hey.
Hi. Hi.
We need to wait. Start this and end this.
That's like... That's clean.
Right. Distinctive.
What if it was like 70s newscast, kind of like... That'd be good, right? Yeah.
This just ends. Instead, it's just me laying down on the love seat.
Oh, guys. You leaning back on the couch.
I lean back on the couch like a kind of like an old drunk hobo leans on a park bench. Right, Steven? Steven had to put his hand over his mouth.
It was that accurate. That's so true.
He's like, I'm seeing... It's as if my hat is tipped forward.
Yeah And I'm leaning on this loveseat like Mrs. Roper.
That's right. On a fucking.
If Mrs. Roper went and got some scissors and cut her caftan in half.
Uh-huh. Because Georgia doesn't fuck around with full length anything.
No. You're all about the leg.
Yeah, that's true. I do show a lot of leg.
Because it's, you know why? That in full effect. Thank you.
Whoever made that. I did a kind of rude thing.
I posted the picture Summer Karen in full effect on my Twitter page. And then after I did it, I probably should have found out who made that.
Oh, right. I didn't have the name.
Man, fucking credit gives me so much stress. I know.
Like I won't. It's so hard to make sure that everyone gets credit and you don't want them to hate you and stop making shit.
That's right. Well, here's the thing.
You have a job that you go to every day. You have dogs, which everyone knows is very stressful.
I have no day job. I mean, I work from time to time.
You do stuff though. Yeah.
I have extreme anxiety, which causes me to constantly do things. Yeah.
Which is great. Mine causes me to constantly not do things.
That's interesting. Oh, because you're like, I can't do this right.
I'm not even, this is going to suck. I won't do it.
Exactly. I freeze up.
I have perfectionism. And then I'm, yeah, I just go fuck it.
I've, I spent my life saying fuck it. Wow.
Because I'm, I don't have perfectionism. So I'm like, let's fucking try this and see what happens and then we'll learn from our mistakes and we can quit it if it sucks.
That's the way to be. Yeah.
Like if you do everything like at a B plus, you know, and no one else does anything else because they think they're going to get a B. Then that rounds up to an A.
Then I get a fucking A. Hell yeah, girl.
You know what I mean? I like this. I have to rely on other people's perfection anxieties to just deliver mine.
God, that's really smart. Did I tell you? My grandma sang bigger dummies than you.
Yeah, that's right. You know? It's so good.
It's so good and bad at the same time. My grandma's saying was, be quiet now.
Is she Romanian? No, that's Irish. She was a vampire or something.
I'll be quiet now. She was a gypsy.
I only saw her once. I love it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Just try it. And if it sucks, you can just walk away from it.
Girl, I'm about it. I mean, you were right about this podcast.
But oh, let's walk away from it. No, no.
Like just try it. Why don't we try it? Let's just do one and see how it goes.
That's my whole motto. Yeah.
Let's do one and see how it goes. It's very smart.
And now everyone's making these awesome crafts, which by the way, I gave my fucking P.O. box on the Facebook.
Is that a mistake? No, it's a PO box. I know, but man.
What do you think? Someone's going to go stand by the PO box and wait for you? Yeah. No, that's the whole point of PO boxes is there's someone that works there.
And if someone's just start standing by a PO box, they're like, hey, weirdo with the kitchen knife, get the fuck out of here.

I don't know why. I'm just going to always go with Vince.
So anyone who's thinking about beating me up, I'm going with my big, tall husband who will probably do nothing. I love the idea that a P.O.
Box would make you this nervous. Now we're opposites again.
This is where I'm brave, where I would just be like, come at me. Give it your best.
I'm terrified. I know, but who cares? I mean, you could take a nice swing at somebody.
What a stupid way to die, though. Like what? I feel like if I heard that, like this girl who has a true crime podcast put her P.O.
box up and got killed. What a fucking idiot.
Why did she do that? That's what I would think. I wouldn't.
P.O. box is like the most vague.
Like if it's a city, you don't even know if the person lives in that city. You just got the P.O.
box. And also this is Los Angeles.
There's so many people here. Yeah.
So like I almost want to say millions. That sounds fucking right.

I dare say.

That sounds right.

Okay.

All right.

And also no offense,

but there's better PO boxes

than Sandexter.

Oh,

everything was great

up until you just said that.

And now I'm...

There are dummies than you.

So sad.

There's so many better dummies

in this town.

Oh.

No.

Thank you. Don't be sad.
I meant that many better dummies in this town. No.
Thank you.

Don't be sad. I meant that in the complimentary way.
Is

there one? No.

But I mean, Justin Timberlake lives here somewhere.

That's what I'm saying. Okay.
That's what

I mean. Don't kill Justin Timberlake, you guys.

I was just going to say go kill him. No, don't kill him.

That's not okay. The people who kill are

not influenceable by these

podcasts. They're not going to be like with their murder kit under the passenger seat and then be like, you know what, girls? You show me the way.
No one diabolically listens to a podcast. People only like at least medium joyfully listen to podcasts.
No one's like... Now we're baiting people.
Now people are like, I'm going to show her. There's no like Mr.
Burns-esque podcast listeners sitting at his desk going, you know, with his fingers. No.
He doesn't listen. Marge listens.
Simpsons. This podcast always comes back to the Simpsons.
Lisa totally is a fan. Lisa's on that Facebook page.
NPR for sure.

Oh, I saw, can I recommend a Netflix series that I watched all of in one day?

Always, always.

Oh, Olive.

This is from our new section, Olives.

Olives always.

All of you.

It's called Marcella or Marcella.

They pronounce it because they're British.

So they'll do a fancy pronunciation that baffles me as I've already proven. Um, it's with Anna Friel.
It's super good. It's female, um, homicide detective who's all screwed up as the, all the good ones are always screwed up.
I watched the whole season, which I think was eight episodes, maybe more in a day And it was so good And there's a couple people on the Facebook page Who have recommended it What's it called? Marcella is how it's spelled I want to watch it I haven't seen it yet You should watch it It's really good Do you like those kinds of procedurals, like a Luther or a... What country of origin? England.
Okay. Yes and no.
Okay. It just depends.
Sometimes I... What do you need? What? What do you need? Oh, you know what I loved is the one...
I one i'm not gonna remember the name the one with the woman oh yes that one was she dead no she was a police detective and she was incredible oh happy valley yes yes i loved happy valley and then there was another one and i was just like i can't with this i don't care it's uh i just don don't know. Maybe you need yours more character driven.
Like Happy Valley is almost more about her family. Yeah.
Her trying to deal with just her shit. Yeah.
I guess it was like about her, I could legitimately see why she was fucked up and sad. Yes.
And it wasn't like, just go get a fucking coffee and cheer up. Yes.
Or like, you don't have to talk like this. I didn't do those dramatic bullshit things like talking in dramatic voices and words that no one would ever fucking say.
Not that I could understand everything that was said on that show because there's some thick accents. You watched the second season, right? I don't know if I finished it yet.
Oh, it's the best. Sorry, go on.
No, no, no. That's just my recommendation.
There was like one lone person was like, did anybody watch this? It's so good. So I found that on the Facebook page.
I was like, I did. I loved it.
There's maybe there were two people actually. Sorry, but I just wanted to, to tell more people if, if people liked British procedurals, like a Luther or a, um, uh, I don't know.
Dexter? Was that good? No, I did not like Dexter. Never saw it.
It was super cheesy. It's a different type of procedural because it was very heavy handed.
It was also narrated, which I almost always hate. Oh, interesting.
Was it like CSI? It was actually, but yes, it was CSI. But Michael C.
Hall is awesome. He's from Six Feet Under.
Oh yeah, of course. He's great.
And it's like, the storylines are interesting because it's serial killer stuff, but there was just a lot of like, I don't know. And it didn't do it the way I like it.
I went to his house on 4th of July once. Really? Yeah.
That's, now this is a, we'll call this area is called Celebrity Center. It's called Who Does Stock at a PO Box besides Georgia? Let's talk about it.
Michael C. Hall is a good person to stop.
Michael C. Hall, for example.
I know where he fucking lives, you guys. If you're thinking of killing me at my PO Box, let me know and I'll give you Michael C.
Hall's address. Good.
Throw him under the bus. Or give...
Why don't you have your mail sent to his mailbox? Okay. I can't wait to see what we start getting, though.
Like, as much as I'm scared of dying, I'm also excited for, like, presents. For living.
Yeah. Someone...
I don't even want to talk about it yet, but someone's made us lipsticks. What? Like our flavor of lipstick.
Like a Karen Kilgariff lipstick and a Georgia Heart. No, I can't even want to talk about it yet but someone's made us lipsticks like our flavor of lips like a Karen Kilgariff lipstick and a Georgia Heart no I can't can you even fucking go I couldn't be more excited I know I don't even want to talk about it yet because I just want to open the box with you should I open before and present to you like I did or should I should we open the stuff together I have a feeling you have a very specific way you like to do a male situation.
Well, I mean, yeah, probably things in general. Like, do you like to have it be a surprise? Remember last time I was afraid moths were going to come out? That's like a thing.
I like a surprise, but probably because I knew you knew everything about it. Yeah, we can do either way.
I guess it depends. I don't know.
We can do anything. It might be fun to open it together.
Yeah. And neither of us know.
What if we open it and then we have to fake our response? Because we're not that stoked on it. Or like, you know, I used to work at Bio Bottoms, which was a children's natural fiber clothing company in my hometown.
Okay. And the returns department...
Bio Bottoms? It was called Bio Bottoms. They made a shit ton of money.
I bet. But the returns department used to come and tell us weird shit that they got like what? like just dog shit like someone sent back a box that just had an old dried piece of dog shit in it yeah okay I'll open it first I mean as much as it would be fun to do that live no let's do it live If we got we should get Like corners like goggles The full suit Gloves Hazmat Or we should be open it all on video And post that somewhere Make people pay to watch us open mail That's a good idea I mean why not pay to open free shit come on

yeah we should do it on video here I go again

with my fucking plans and schemes

plans and schemes

you're the architect of this high rise building

that we're living in

we do this together I'm just

fueled by too much

coffee and Adderall

and the

Invisalign

I just took out of my mouth because I realized

Thank you. conduit fueled by too much coffee and Adderall and the Invisalign I just took out of my mouth because I realized how awful it's happening I actually get great joy from watching you take your Invisalign out of your mouth because it looks like it's three times bigger than your mouth as you take it out like it's so it's an event it is I I feel like and then's like a, like a string of saliva attached to it.
It's real sexy. It's fun.
So you know what? Someone recently emailed me and said, uh, I listened to your podcast and you, thank you for talking about depression and anxiety. I have it and I've never done anything.
Where do I even start to find a therapist? And I was like, so stoked this person wrote me because to me it's like fucking second nature. I've been doing this since I was 12.
So I'm just like, what? And so I gave them psychology today has a great page. You put in your zip code and it tells you the psychologist in your area.
That's how I found my therapist. Yeah.
I found most of my therapists through that. And I love my therapist.
I've been with her for like 12 years. Yeah.
Really? Wow. Yeah.
And that's it was one day. I think I tried one other person because I told my friend who was a therapist, so I couldn't go to her.
So she's like, just tell

me what you want. I'll recommend.
And I said, I need to talk to somebody that looks like Olympia

Dukakis. Well, that was a mistake.
You can't do it that way. No, you can't cast it in your mind

and pretend you're going to go act out scenes. They do have photos on the thing.
And I've

definitely been like, that's it. She looks like a hippie.
Right. I don't want to go to her.

I don't know. You can't cast it in your mind and pretend you're going to go act out scenes.
They do have photos on the thing.

And I've definitely been like, that's it.

She looks like a hippie.

Right.

I don't want to go to her.

I don't want to go into a cloud of pot to talk about my problem. She doesn't know what it's like to just wear all this makeup all the time.

I don't want someone who keeps interrupting my good stories.

There are stories of Woodstock and the doors.

No, that Psychology Today

is this shit, that website.

Yeah. So in case you're too scared

to ask. Don't be scared.

Everyone's in therapy and everyone

needs to be in therapy. Also, Psychology Today

is the freaking best magazine. Yeah, it's good.

You should get it. It's all about

understanding yourself.

Yeah, sure.

I'm sorry. That was so condescending okay we're back georgia would you like to apologize to british procedurals right now or olivia coleman personally personally yes my apologies to olivia coleman you are a fucking the queen of queens literally and i'm fucking obsessed with you british procedurals yes it's still karen's thing but i i support i'm i'm forcing your hand on that one you're just you're just being nice a little bit a little bit sometimes depends we still have that p.o box right We still have that p.o box and luckily i don't pick up that mail anymore if you can believe it so feel free to go and hang out at the p.o box but also send us whatever the fuck you feel like sending us we get wedding invites we've gotten maple syrup we've gotten hot dog earrings paintings of steven And so much,.
I have a wall full of paintings of my cats in my office right now. It's just my favorite thing.
It's pretty great. You guys have been very generous over the years.
But if you haven't been generous, you still have a chance. The P.O.
Box is My Favorite Murder, Inc. at P.O.
Box 39585. L-A-C-A 90039.
Yeah, the explanation I had to give to the guy at the post office to get my favorite murder listed. He looked at me very strangely and I had to get my dimples going to be like, everything's okay.
It's fine. Don't worry.
It's about something else. It mean, don't worry about it.
You're like, and as if that would be the creepiest thing that's ever happened at a PO box. Come on.
Right. Grow up.
All right. So this is when I first share my grandma Molly's saying bigger dummies than you, which makes me so happy.
I was just in an episode of the therapy podcast, Your Mental Breakdown. And I talk about this saying specifically, and how much it means to me that it's become part of our lore, because it's just like memorializes my grandma.
And I love that. And it also just lets people know that you can have a little wider perspective when you're feeling insecure, when you're feeling like you have self doubt, that like like you have to think about what's gone on in the world for the last couple thousands of years and how dumb a lot of people have been and they they weren't insecure accomplished everything so like yeah you can fucking do it too get out there with your talent and your brains please this isn't the same but my Crystal is a Pilates instructor.
And I had like this toenail surgery mishap. And, you know, I love my feet.
They're so cute. And I was like bitching to her about how my toe is ruined.
And she goes, Georgia, have you not seen other people's feet? She's like, I see people's feet all the time. She's a flies instructor.
I promise yours are still like on top. And I just stopped caring about the toe thing.
Like it really helped me. I forgot that other people have hideous feet.
I love Crystal. Even mine.
I mean, she really did it for me. Grandma Molly and Crystal high fives all around.
Everyone's doing an incredible job. It's very important to have other people help you keep perspective.
You can't do it for yourself all the time. Yeah.
Shame thrives in the shadows, right? That's right. That's what Brené Brown says.
So fucking scream that shit to the ceiling. Might as well.
And let your friends and your grandma talk you down. So, Karen, this is when you tell your, like, legit, classic, I mean, awful hometown.
A true hometown of mine. A true hometown.
I mean, I mean awful hometown a true hometown of mine a true hometown I mean I don't know why like re-listening and remembering that you worked with Polly Class's mother I completely forgot that I mean yeah this is such a hometown for you well and it's that kind of thing where like when you thought of the idea of people sending in their hometowns, the idea is there's so many people that have like these kinds of connections. It didn't happen to you.
It didn't happen in your family, but it happened in a way that affected you. It's like Michelle McNamara in I'll Be Gone in the Dark, where it's like these things happen around us and it affects us and watching how it affects other people affects us.
And if you're an empathetic human being, you know, the fact that these senseless murders happen, there is a ripple effect and that ripple effect matters. And people, there is the tragedy and there's the part that shuts people down entirely.
And then there's the part where then people become detectives, they become forensic scientists, they become victims advocates. It's like, you know, the ripple effect isn't sometimes can actually end up doing good, which is a pretty cool thing that I think as this podcast progressed, we started to get a handle on where it went less from the salacious kind of, oh, Ted Bundy, blah, blah, blah, you know, 90s attitude that we came up with.
And then it turned into like this, this is real. These are human stories.
Yeah. And the fact that like, for a lot of us, these stories have stuck with us in a way that we're not allowed to talk about because we're not involved and we're not, you know, it is the victim story.
It is their family. We're not that.
We're not trying to say that, like, you know, boohoo us, but like they've stuck with us and in our heart in a way that we've never been able to get out because people don't talk about this. And I feel like we've given people a platform to talk about it and still acknowledge that they care about it, even though they're not directly involved.
And I mean, there's no better proof of that than web sleuths, people that are online actually doing that work that could actually get cold cases solved. Like, that's real.
And that has nothing to do with, like, the media aspect of it. It's like the people going and trying to help get the job done.

Like the Doe Network.

Yeah, all of that.

It's incredible.

It's incredible.

All right, well, let's listen to Karen's hometown story,

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Who's going first this week? I think it's you. Skipper times.
Come back to us, skippers.

Oh. If it's mine this week, if I go first,

I've been, this past week has been quite crazed. Do you want me to go first? No, no, no, I can go.
But I just want, I just need a little ramp up of, I had plans and schemes about what I was going to do and then realized I needed to do more work, uh, like really dig in and do some serious research. Cause that's the thing is sometimes you go to talk about, so I want to do Ted Bundy because I'm three quarters of the way through that and rule book, the stranger beside me, which is amazing.
There's other people on the Facebook page reading it. So I love that, that we're reading it at the same time, but I, when I do it, it should be comprehensive and not, you know, half assed.
Cause he is, he's pretty much one of the most famous serial killers of our time. Well, I like sometimes when you will like pick a part of that story or pick, you know, you don't have to tell him from start to finish, but like, you know, the co-ed murders that he did.
Yeah. Like if you pick a thing from it or how Richard Ramirez got caught, I think that was an amazing story on its own.
I'll say what I'm passionate about, about Ted Bundy. But no, when I do it, it's going to be a three-hour presentation.
I'll just take a nap. Okay.
Just read the book on the podcast. Yes, exactly.
In kind of a slow, low voice where people are just like, all right, I was trying to get through my workday, but whatever you feel like doing is fine. Yeah, this podcast has changed.
It's a bummer. No, so I figured I would go back to my roots and I'm going to do my hometown murder, which is the most famous murder from my hometown, which is the Polly Klaas murder.
Oh, girl. And the other reason I'm telling this is because not only was it a firsthand experience, I didn't live in my hometown when she was kidnapped.
But I lived in San Francisco and I would go home for holidays and I was back and forth all the time. But Polly Klaus's mother is a woman named Eve and Eve was my boss at the last job I had when I lived in Petaluma, which was at Byerbottoms, the natural fiber children's clothing.
Oh my God. It comes back around.
So I actually didn't mean to make that reference, but then I was doing it. I was like, like i'm probably doing this on purpose subconsciously but um it was very strange because it's there's a lot of uh a lot of the times we look and we research these stories and it's these places that are like you know when we when we talk about like the police messing up an investigation or things you know things getting screwed up or whatever a lot of times it's because it's towns that have never had a crime to that degree, a murder or kidnapping or something where people don't have the experience.
And most of their career as a cop is pulling people over, you know, giving people like DUIs and stuff. Totally.
And it's before the internet. So you don't really experience, experience I mean now we can read about other crimes in other cities ad nauseum.
Yeah. And people and all police stations are and cops are more connected because of the internet.
So that's like that whole East Area Rapist the Golden State Killer thing where there were you know there were police departments who were keeping information from each other. Totally.
Because they were the ones that wanted the collar. It's like all of that and the way that criminal science is developing because of the internet.
So my hometown is Petaluma, California, and it is one of those towns where when I was growing up there, I think the population was somewhere around 32,000. So it was a small farm town, basically.
So the main town itself, there was the downtown area. The east side had more of the newer development tract homes.
Everyone on the east side had a two-story house. But on my side, on the west side, that was out where all the dairy and chicken ranches were.
So I grew up five miles outside of town. And so we basically were, it was the country.
And so when I was growing up, we didn't have cable. Holy shit.
We only had four channels. We only got four channels on our TV and we couldn't get pizza delivered to our house Because we lived too far out of town.
And that was how a lot of kids I knew grew up. Yeah.
It was just country. That just seems like I can't imagine being that far.
Like as someone who grew up literally with like shared walls with other apartments. Oh, yeah.
I just can't even imagine living in that much space. Yeah.
It's weird. It's like, we didn't have sidewalks.
We didn't have streetlights. Holy shit.
So at night, I think now they do on the street that I grew up on. But at the time, when you drove at night out where I grew up, it was pitch black.
I don't even know what that looked like. I have never seen the stars like that unless I'm camping or something.
It's so fun. When I go to my dad's house for like holidays, I get out of the car and I stand in his driveway and they'll be like, come on, crazy.
Like it's like, it's stars from like horizon to horizon. Yeah, people who aren't in LA or New York or a big city don't, there's no stars because there's so much light pollution that you just can't see.
We can never see stars here. Never.
And people that live in like, oh my God, if you live in like Kansas or like somewhere that's like kind of low population and no light pollution. Totally.
Dang. Dang, dude.
We used to lay out at nights in the summertime. Our next door neighbor, the Withingtons had a pool and we would sometimes have like a slumber party where we'd all lay in sleeping bags next to their pool.
And we would lay on their chaise lounges and look up and there would just be shooting stars all night long. We just, that's all we did was go.
There's one, there's one, there's one. It was awesome.
That's amazing. So anyway, that's basically the feel of this town.
This was the kind of town where, and I think I've told the story before in the show, but like in my town, um, it one time a guy on the street tried to purse snatch a lady's purse and everyone on the sidewalk chased him up the street. Yes.
It's that everyone knows each other. Everyone's from there.
People like stay there, grow up there, stay there, raise their kids there. There's generations and generations of like ranching people of all kinds of people.
So it's cool. It's I feel now I feel lucky when I was growing up.
I was like, get me. Of course.
I want to go to Manhattan. Right.

So when this happened, it happened. It was a little house that was on a little Walnut Park that was, I think it's Walnut Park, a little park that's in the kind of city center.
And it's really cute. My friend Heidi Peterson's mom actually had a house.
So it's basically a park in the center and then the, you know, four streets squaring around. So it wasn't rural.
It wasn't in the middle of nowhere. No, they lived downtown Petaluma.
Wow. So they lived walking distance.
Like the main part of downtown is like Petaluma Boulevard and Western. And that's where like the really old buildings, the old two and three story buildings are.
They lived probably 10 blocks from that part of town. So, but still, and this was, this happened in 1993.
But even then this was the kind of town where people did not lock their front door. Yeah.
You just didn't. There was no reason to.
No. It seems like such a like what everyone says, like you didn't lock your door, but like I don't think you did.
Right. It was.
I think that's also that that's that thing of like people as as we get older and this kind of like 2020 generation grows up. Yes.
It's that thing of, now we just know what happens to other people. Right.
Our parents didn't do it because they came from a time when you didn't have to. We do it as adults because we grew up.
Because we know the possibility. Right.
We didn't understand the possibility as much, I think. Yeah.
But also in these small towns, it just didn't happen there. So it wasn't like you're like, well, we should be careful anyway.
It'd be like, don't be weird. Like there's no reason.
So on October 1st, 1993, Polly was having a slumber party with two of her friends and Eve was in the front of the house. Her mom was in the front of the house and somebody came in their back door, walked into her bedroom.
And the rumor is that he said, which one of you lives here? Now, I know a bunch of small town rumors about this case and they could completely be bullshit, but I'm basically just telling you this. Oh, I want to hear those.
Wait, so how old was she? She at the time was 12. Okay.
And so were they sleeping already? They were all awake. They were awake and like doing slumber party stuff.
And the mom was awake and everything? Yes. Holy shit.
Yeah. So he tied the friends up first and put pillowcases over their head.
And then he took her out of the house. And he told them to count to a thousand or kill them.
So once they heard him go, they got free and then ran to the front of the house and said someone took Polly. Good for them.
So the other thing is Dave Anthony, the co-host of The Dollop, my first comedy boyfriend, when we lived in San Francisco, he still worked at the bank in his hometown, which is Novato, the town next to my town, going south to San Francisco. And his boss at that bank, his daughter was one of those two girls.
So when this shit kicked off, it was like everyone you knew was affected in some way. Everyone you knew knew a person, everyone you knew.
Like my sister's best friend, Adrienne, who is basically like my sister too. She pulled out a photo album one time because she also worked at Bio Bottoms.
That job was actually really awesome. It was like paid you way more than minimum wage.
And we basically just sat there from like six in the morning until two in the afternoon and took calls and took orders. And so you could actually make kind of a good living and then have the rest of your day done.
So she was like a young mother. She worked there with me.
She pulled out a photo album one time of there was somebody had a baby shower and everybody was there and eve brought paulie to that baby shower so this girl was like it's that thing where it's not just oh a girl from our town we all feel so everybody knew this family holy shit that's like that's so crazy that when there's this like and i've noticed this with hometown murders that are all like my brother's best friend from college or it's always someone, you know, it's not just the hometown murder, the thing that happened in their hometown. It's like a thing that could have been them or they knew the people or they affected them somehow.
Totally. So interesting.
Well, and that, I think that's also that thing that ties us into it is because like, I remember the first time I went home, my sister called me to tell me that it happened.

And the first time I went home, I drove.

So to get off the freeway, I have to drive up Petaluma Boulevard.

And then my parents now live it.

My dad lives in town. They finally, of course, when we graduated from high school, moved out.

That's when my parents moved into town and got cable and ordered pizza. They didn't have cable until you left for college.
No, no, I, my, I, my friends would talk about the Brady bunch. That was like on channel 44, which was like, Oh, that's the San Francisco station that like other people have.
Yeah. We just had dipshit Gilligan's Island.
Anyway, I'm not shaming you. It's just like, it's such an interesting fact of your life.
Yeah. It's so weird.
And also because my dad's a fireman, which is this classic move of fireman, which was we have cable in the firehouse. We don't need that shit.
So he saw all the terrible stuff that cable provided and he was like, I'm keeping that away from my kids. And yet it didn't make a fucking difference.
Look at you now. Look at the things I'm talking about and how much I say the F word.
It has no, it had no bearing on your life at all. I think it pushed me the other direction.
That's why I'm a Satanist. Just kidding, dad.
He's not listening to this. So anyway, what the first time I came home after my sister told me about it, I'm pretty sure it was for Thanksgiving.
Or maybe it was

somewhere in the middle of November.

The entire town,

because Polly's favorite color was purple.

The entire town

and every fucking car

had a purple bow on it.

Like a purple ribbon.

Like the yellow ribbon for soldiers.

There was purple ribbons

for waiting for Polly to get found.

How long had she been gone by that point?

She got kidnapped on October 1st.

Thank you. like the yellow ribbon for soldiers.
There was purple ribbons for waiting for Polly to get found. How long had she been gone by that point? Well, she got kidnapped on October 1st.
Wow. And so this was probably three weeks.
It was everywhere. And it was like, it gave me the chills.
By the time I got to my parents' house, I was crying. Oh, no.
It was so heavy. Then my sister, who loves to be this person person started telling me all the stuff that she heard.

And apparently, so that happened the night of October 1st, the next day they had to tell all the kids at Petaluma Junior High because she was in, I believe seventh grade. And she was in, is the beginning of seventh grade.
Like if it was October, she'd probably only been in school for a couple months. They made the announcement that she was missing and they had flyers that said, have you seen me? And they said, after school, we want you all to hand these out everywhere you can.
The kids took the flyers and all got up and left school right that moment and went out into the town are you crying story yep started

that my sister told me that story and i sobbed for like 10 minutes straight because it's like these kids this was a girl that was their friend this was the girl they had a crush on this was like a real person a human being that someone just fucking took out of her room i mean it's so brazen that it's it's a nightmare it's it's even scarier that it's just like not

other took out of her room. I mean, it's so brazen that it's, it's a nightmare.
It's, it's even scarier that it's just like not other circumstances, like she was alone or, you know, her parents weren't home or something. It's just like, how do you protect yourself? You can't blame anything.
Yeah, exactly. And, and also that, yeah, it's just, it's every parent's nightmare.
It's every kid's nightmare.

Yeah.

So the young, the young children of that class in Petaluma High, at Petaluma Junior High,

I've always had just this, like the biggest warm spot in my heart for them because also

it was just like, we don't give a fuck.

Like put us on detention.

What are you going to do?

We are going to go do everything we can to help find her.

Yeah.

And how can you sit through the rest of the school day?

I mean, I get it.

I mean, I'm sure, you know, but it's just, it was kind of just a beautiful, incredibly sad thing. And the whole town took it that way.
I mean, everybody, you know, they, so Winona Ryder is from my hometown. And she, I think she also grew up like out in the country like I did.
And she went to Petaluma Junior High and Petaluma High School. And she came back and she made the announcement when they were still looking for her.
So they ended up finding her or no, they, they ended up like making an arrest near the end of November, the beginning of December. So somewhere in there, like at the end of November, Winona Ryder went on TV and made an announcement at national news saying this girl's missing.
If you've seen her, we love her. She's part of the community.
This is my town. Like all this shit where, you know, I'm sitting in an apartment in San Francisco watching it being like, this is so weird community this is my town like all the shit where you know i'm sitting in an

apartment in san francisco watching it being like this is so weird this is my this is where i grew up this is my whole life and like and it's everyone going like yeah this is this is our girl like we have to find her someone has to do something so the horrible part of all of it is the policemen, the Petaluma police

actually immediately called in the FBI.

They... the horrible part of all of it is these the policemen, the Petaluma police actually immediately called in the FBI.
They did all that stuff that we talked about like there's other, or Novato that other murder, that young girl, where they just immediately called the FBI. Like they know they're in over their head.
They do the whole missing persons thing. But the problem was the night that it happened, when the APB went out, it went out on the sheriff's channel, which was channel one.
And that night, there was some Sonoma Valley police officers that found... So a woman was babysitting at her boss's house and she saw a car that was on her boss's private road.
And so she called the police and said, I don't know who this guy is, but there's a car sitting down there stuck in a ditch and someone needs to come. So it was the...
From what I saw on Wikipedia, it said Sonoma Valley police. I'm not sure if that's accurate or what area they were in, but it was, it was somewhere kind of in the rural part.
Um, cause so it all goes kind of starts going by County. So it might've been Sonoma County Sheriff, Sonoma County police, whatever, but they call the police to go out there and the police who went were on channel 3 this was before they had united all of the APB channels so if the APB went out for the sheriff's department it only went out to the other sheriffs on channel 1 I guess now they have it because of this kidnapping and this murder they changed all of of that.
So the second an APB goes out in 911, whatever thing like that, everybody hears it on all of those channels. But it wasn't like that then.
So these two cops go up and they check this guy out. They don't know.
They don't like how he looks. They don't like where he is.
They don't. They're asking him a bunch of questions.
He's got an open container. He's clearly been drinking.
He's got leaves in his hair. He's got shit on him.
But they search the car. There's nothing going on.
There's nothing in the car. So there's nothing they can do.
They really didn't like just the feel of it, knowing nothing about what was going on. They didn't like him.
But they told the, and this is going to sound blamey, but it's, it's one of those things where it's like you, it's better to overdo it than not do anything at all. Because they told the property owner, you need to make a citizen's arrest so we can arrest this guy.
Cause we can't, there's nothing that's going on that we can do do anything about because this is a private road. It's your property.
So you need to come out and say, I want, you're under citizen's arrest and then we can take him away. And the property owner was like, I don't want to do that.
Yeah. So they just- Which is understandable because then he knows where she lives.
That's exactly right. The minute she, you know, he gets let out.
Yeah. So they have to let him go.
Yeah. But what they did was they basically did every little piece.
This is like now the opposite of most of the stories we hear. These cops did every little piece of paperwork they possibly could about this guy.
They took his name. They took all the information about his car, where they were, the report and everything.
And they filed the thing. It's called like an F1 file or something like that.
And it was the one thing that they could basically do was fill out this, what is it called? It's called an, it doesn't really matter. It's like an F1 card or something like that.
Okay. That basically says this was an event that happened that the police got called to that we don't like, but there's nothing we can do, but it happened.
And we want people to know. So they did that immediately.
And then when did they find out that that's who that was? Sorry, it was an FI card, a field interrogation card. Okay.
So they have all his information.

They have the car information.

And what happened?

Sorry, what was the question?

That makes sense.

So when did they realize who it was?

Or were you getting that?

I thought that's what you meant.

Oh, okay.

So no.

So once they left, they don't know.

On November 28th, so then it was basically two months later.

Yeah.

That same property owner is inspecting her property after loggers partially cleared the property of trees. And she discovers items that make her think that they might have matched those used in the kidnapping.
Oh no. So the sheriff's department goes out there and they find a torn pair of ballet leggings that match by the FBI crime lab to the other part of the leggings that were taken as evidence the night of the kidnapping.

So they basically.

The theory is that he had already taken her out of the car and hidden her out in these bushes.

Well, well, and then went back to the car.

Then the cops pull up and he's just like,

yeah,

you can look at any shit that I want.

Cause she's tied up in the bushes over there.

They don't know whether or not he,

when they arrested this guy.

So this guy's named Richard Allen Davis.

He has,

he is on par with Charles Manson in how many times he has been arrested and been in jail.

Like the worst record miles long. He wouldn't tell them anything.
He wouldn't tell them the events. Once he confessed that he's the one that killed her, he wouldn't give them details of anything.
So they would try to walk him through it and he just wouldn't say what happened or what he did or anything. He just admitted like they had all the enough evidence to bring him to trial.
And he basically was like, yeah, I did it. But he didn't, he didn't tell them he didn't, they don't know if she was murdered that night.
They don't know if he kept her for longer, but she wasn't found, her body wasn't found there. Her body was found off of the 101 freeway um pretty far north up in cloverfield uh which is like it's so weird too like when i you hear all these things like these are the towns where we played we played against them in softball in high school it's like the town you would go to we would go there on on our way to Blue Lake, on our way to vacation every summer.

No, I'm picturing places in Orange County and I can make sense of that. Yeah.
So it's just like you're just thinking as you drive up, it's also rural up there anyway. But as you drive up, you just look out and somewhere off the side of the highway, there was a little girl's body buried.
I hate it. It's really awful.
essentially

the three strike law

was put into place after this case happened because this guy had such an insane record where it was like, you can't just get arrested for a ton of terrible shit like 50 times in your life and just keep getting out and keep doing stuff like this like

he he was um he was pretty awful so he admitted to strangling her to death um but that's all the information that he would give um i wonder why he wouldn't because he was toying with them he would think that if he had gotten them sorry am i interrupting you no not at. You would think that if he had not killed her before the cops came, he would have wanted them to know that so he can like taunt them almost.
He was super weird. So when they put him on trial, he did a bunch of weird shit.
He flipped off like the jury. Like he was Manson-y in that way where where he it was stuff like before they arrested him in my town there was the rumor was that the father did it oh fuck and it was because they were like he's got you know he owes money to the he owes money for gambling he's this he's that and the father was on tv constantly if you remember anything from this case you remember mark Kloss being on TV and talking about her.
So I think a lot of people in my town, their reaction to that was like, it seems like you're enjoying this publicity a little too much. Wow, looking back, that poor guy.
Yes. What an awful thing to say.
Yeah. Well, that's small town gossip.
You know what I mean? Where everyone's looking for the answer. And so it's easy to get a target on your back.
And also it just, it's one thing to be on the news crying and being like, I need my daughter back. But I don't know.
It was easy to kind of put that on him because I think he was a zealot. But I mean, it's that thing of like, we don't know how people grieve.

Right.

And,

and he could be the kind of person that's like,

I just need to do something with myself.

Sure.

Look at,

um,

uh,

Nicole Simpson and,

uh,

Ron Goldman's dad.

Yeah.

You know,

that went out of his mind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

who's to say how,

how you would act or how it would be.

Here's the good news,

uh, if any, about any of that. There's's a there's now they took the um there's this little church that in this weird part of the road where i go to go to my dad's house and they took that and that's now called the polycloss center for the performing arts because she was big into theater and she wanted to be an actress and that was why

it meant so much that Winona Ryder came back

and talked about her. It was all

very sweet. So they've

kind of dedicated that

to like kids, you know, making

sure kids like, I guess, have a

place to perform and I don't know

for that part it's very sweet

and positive

and the thing about they basically

all the things that got fucked up

in the beginning through communication

Thank you. for that part, it's very sweet and positive.
And the thing about, they basically, all the things that got fucked up in the beginning through communication, they actually did stuff about. Sure, yeah, that's great.
Like the APB thing and the three strikes law. Like a lot of good things came out of that.
That's amazing. But also Richard Allen Davis actually had to get put into solitary because he was getting beaten up so much.
So God bless that jailhouse justice. They couldn't wait to beat this man up for killing this girl.
I mean, I want to say good, but at the same time, you can't say that. There's no good.
And he's's no good but uh they actually and he's on death row he got the death sentence so he's still alive now he's still alive because california doesn't ever really execute anybody so it's just it's people sitting on death row but his lawyers actually tried to say um they try they they have tried to um get uh where's it Where's this part? They basically tried to say that it's torturing him by making him wait to find out when he's going to be executed. They tried to make that argument that it's like...
What do you call that? It's called inhumane... What's it called? I don't know.
Something like it's something along those lines. Or it's just like when I read the paragraph, I was just like, you got to be fucking cute.
Who would actually have the balls to say that out loud? Sometimes I get really mad at lawyers. I don't want to start the whole shit talking that we do about cops sometimes because I know it's complicated and you promise to do these things and uphold the and uphold the law but sometimes I'm just like I just don't know how they live with themselves sometimes when they're defending someone who's a monster exactly and and doing the best that they can to to to get them off I guess it's not I guess you just want to get them a fair trial yeah it must It must be hard.
I would never want to be a lawyer. No.
Ever. Oh, cruel and unusual pun.
There it is. Yeah.
That's the one we were looking for. Wow.
Yeah. That's sad.
So that's mine. I actually had a lot of guilt for not doing this story earlier.
Yeah. Because it's my real hometown murder.
Because I knew it was really a part of my life. But then also it feels bad to talk about.
I actually hesitated in saying her mom's name because I don't want it to seem like I'm trying to anything. Well, Karen, you started crying and I don't think you've ever done that in any of them before.
So I feel like it's important and I don't think you should feel bad at all. Okay.
Also, there's another little girl that got killed in my town that no one talks about because she was black. Her name's Georgia Moses and that story is really sad and awful.
I'll do it a different time, but that actually gets brought up a lot in tandem with Polly Class because it's like Polly Class was a beautiful little girl. Right.
It was like the you know,, no, she wasn't blonde, but she was, she was blonde. She, but it's that thing of like, you know, the press loves like a beautiful little martyr like that.
Yeah. And then when it's a story of a girl who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and had all the worst in her life and then was just murdered like just thrown away no one talks about it yeah and except for tom waits who lives in my town who lives way out in the country wrote a song for georgia moses yeah i bet you can find his po box pretty easily is that terrible not at all thank you oh georg.
I'm sorry. Yeah.
But I'm all, yeah, that's fucking bummer. I know.
I know. How do you feel now? You know what? I'm glad.
I'm glad I said it. Do you feel cleansed a little? No.
Okay. No.
I just think it's like, you know what? It's all around us. That's kind of the thing that I feel like keeps coming up on this podcast.
It's like, this isn't special. No, I know.
It happens. The people that it happens to are, and it's a full on tragedy in ways that you can't even take in, but it happens constantly.
Yeah. It's like a, it's a very normal part of life,

which I think once you,

the reason we're doing that is because like we're,

we see that and we're freaked out by it and fascinated by it.

And like we could have a million episodes and not get to half the,

the like everyday murders that just happen all the time that you haven't heard about or you haven't,

didn't know the details.

For real. It's just, yeah people get fucking murdered okay we're back i mean oh that like close call where he gets like you know his car gets searched by the cops there's just no way they could have known but she wants so bad for her to have been discovered at that moment.
It's just like such a fucking tragic detail. So horrible.
So horrible. Yeah.
I mean, everything about this story is horrible, obviously. There are a few updates on this case.
In May of this year, Richard Allen Davis's attorneys argued that his death sentence should be recalled because of recent changes to California sentencing laws.

A California judge rejected the resentencing bid, and Davis is still on death row.

And the Poly Class Foundation, a national nonprofit focused on recovering missing children and promoting child safety policies, has assisted to this date 10,000 families in locating their missing children. That's amazing.
Incredible. If you want to donate to the Poly Class Foundation or learn more about them, please go to poly, the name poly, P-O-L-L-Y-K-L-A-A-S.org.
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Make a little donation to Poly Class Foundation. That'd be amazing.
I would love that. Ten grand to fucking polyclass.org, the Polyclass Foundation.
Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you.
Oh, also, I talk about this. There was a kind of a parallel case that I brought up in this story, which is the murder of Georgia Lee Moses, which is, I believe, still a cold case.
And Georgia Lee Moses was a young Black girl. I think she was 13 years old or 12 years old.
And she was found, I mean, I've already, you've heard me say it if you just listen to that clip, but it didn't get really any coverage. So should we also donate to the Black and Missing Foundation? Yes.
Great idea. Beautiful.
Okay, Let's go. It's blackandmissinginc.com.
So 10 grand of them immediately. Yeah.
We had Derica and Natalie Wilson on the podcast. I mean, when was that? Was that like two years ago? That was during the pandemic for sure.
Oh my God. But they were amazing.
We got to talk to them about this foundation, about the work that they do. I believe there was a HBO docuseries about them.
Definitely go watch that. Incredible.
All right, let's move on to more fucking horribleness, shall we? Okay, now it's time for Georgia's story. And she tells the legendary story of the murder of Kitty Genovese.
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What's your murder?

So my murder, okay, like a month and a half or two months ago, we got an email inviting us to the screening of a new documentary called The Witness. And it's a documentary about Kitty Genovese.
That's how you say it, right? Kitty Genovese. And we couldn't go.
And so the guy sent us a screener to watch. He did? Yeah.
You didn't see that? There's like a password and shit. Oh, yeah.
I'm an email skimmer. Oh, okay.
I'm constantly in trouble for it. That's hilarious.
I like read into every single word on email. I'm like, what did he mean by that? I just saw that invitation and I was like, it was a big long thing about being invited, but there were no details where I was like, what time? Like where? Yeah.
And then I just kind of gave up after that. Yeah.
I mean, and I was kind of like, okay, whatever about it. This was like a while ago.
And finally I started watching it last night and it's really fucking good. Oh, awesome.
Yeah. The narrator, the guy who's kind of in the shit of it, he's like the dude who you follow is Kitty Genovese's little brother.
Wow. Yeah.
In real life. Yes.
Wow. So he, okay.
So let me tell you about the murder a little bit. Okay.
So Catherine Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death outside her

apartment building in Kew Gardens, Queens. I feel like everyone knows the story.
And that's why I

was a little like, okay, I've heard the story a million fucking times. She's the girl that

basically everyone is like, she was being stabbed. There were 38 witnesses from an apartment building

across the street and no one did anything. And it kind of started the whole like the bystander effect bystander effect where no but you know the more people watching something the less likely anyone's going to intervene and it had it had all these like these effects on new york and what's happening to the city and people are horrible and you know this kind of this kind of awful thing of of nobody helping yeah it's in like every psych 101 totally yeah so yeah and so I don't want to spoil the movie because I think everyone should go see it but I'm going to talk about the murder so that people remember what it is and also some of the interesting points from this movie without spoiling it because I don't think I could do that.
It's really fucking good. So on March 13th, she finishes her shift at a sports bar.
She's a bartender and she gets home and parks her car at three in the morning at a side parking lot, which sucks. And I feel like she immediately saw her killer.
Winston Mosley was hanging out, clearly looking for a victim. So she gets home at like 3.15.
She parks. It's about a hundred feet from her apartment door.
Yeah. She's just walking towards her building.
He starts to approach her. She immediately starts running and like knowing something's going on.
He overtakes her and stabs her twice

right there on the sidewalk,

right across the street

from this huge apartment building.

And so the story is that people came out and looked

and no one fucking did anything.

But in reality,

it's so much murkier than that.

What it sounds like is that most people thought

it was a lover's quarrel.

They look out the window, but she yells, oh my God, he stabbed me, help me. But most people didn't hear her cry out in the beginning.
Most people thought it was a bar brawl or a lover's quarrel. And by the time a lot of people looked out, he was running away.
And so she walks around the corner stumbling to her apartment.

And so people see her go around the corner

and that's all they saw.

And in reality, people did call

the police.

But back then, you just called.

You didn't call. There was no 911.

And this is part of the reason there is a 911

now is because

they needed...

You can't just call the police precinct and get people there. Okay.
The earliest calls to the police are unclear and weren't given a high priority by them. And it looks like some of them might not have even been logged.
One witness said his father called the police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was beat up but got up and was staggering around so no one knew she was actually being stabbed so so he fucking runs away when someone yells out the window uh let that girl alone this like you hear him in the documentary and he's like this salty old man he's amazing uh let that girl alone. He runs away.
She staggers off. He mostly leaves, comes back when he realizes that no cops are coming and finds her again, which is the most fucking terrifying part of this whole story.
So you can't, if someone had come out to see how she was and there was a doorman in the apartment building right across the street, if someone had come out, you know, maybe they could have helped her, brought her into their house.

Instead, she goes into the doorway of her apartment building, which has one, it's got one outside door and then a locked inside door and she's dying.

And so she can't get her

keys or unlock that door he fucking comes back and finds her in the stairwell just like a fucking

deer that had been you know any what and stabs are more stabs are more they don't mention i haven't

finished the documentary yet and they don't mention this and maybe it's just because he

can't fucking handle it which is fair but i read that he raped her after he stabbed her? well she was dying he raped her I don't know if they're going to mention in the documentary I'm sure they will because it's a huge part of it but I heard that in the documentary it says that he attempted to so I wonder and the brother it's so interesting because he's like i've never been able to deal with i i haven't known the details of this until recently because i just couldn't handle it and it seems like it was a really tight-knit family yeah that's so understandable i don't know how people now deal with that when they find out the details of horrible things that happened to their their like those next of kin i mean it's awful i mean they didn't i guess the family didn't even go to the trial cause they just couldn't even handle it. I bet, you know, which is like, do you, I, what's great about this documentary is it feels like this guy is kind of like, the more I know, the closer I'll be to her.
And I need to find out what happened and know the truth because this is the truth of the, of that crime now is what everyone wrote about it. And when people talk about it in sociology classes and shit, which is turning out not to be true.
So, you know, the New York Times article said that it was 38 people witnessed it and didn't know. But the upstairs neighbor looked out into the stairwell, sees her being stabbed, closes the door and calls his girlfriend who said, don't get involved.
But then later calls the police. So like, dude, you should feel like shit.
Right? Yeah. It's like, but also it's New York City.
I know. Like it's that thing where, yeah, you don't, what are you going to go out there and who knows what's actually happening? Is it just the lover's quarrel? Do you really want to get involved? Yeah.
Not that I wouldn't get involved. Not that the woman deserves it because it's a lover's quarrel.
But it makes sense in that city setting. Yeah.
Like anything can happen and you just don't know. Yeah.
Right. You put your life at risk for a stranger who could turn around and be like, get the fuck away.
Totally. You don't know.
Well, here's a really interesting, one of the parts of the documentary that I loved is he's interviewing the kid and the family never knew that their next door neighbor, who was Kitty's best, like one of her good friends, the soon as she found out what happened, put on her house coat, ran out and held Kitty until the ambulance came. And the brother in the documentary was like, why didn't my family know that? It would have meant so much to us to know that her friend was there while she died.
And so the son is being interviewed, the friend's son, and is like, here's the thing about this neighborhood. A lot of people were Holocaust survivors.
a lot of people in that building were Holocaust survivors and you don't intervene. You don't stick your nose.
You don't get involved in what might happen in cops and police interrogations. You just fucking leave it alone, which is such a sad thing that you would never think about.
Right. Well, those are people that are like, I've had plenty of trouble.
I'm not doing it anymore. Right.
You mind your fucking business. Yeah.
It's gross, but it's hard to argue. So Mosley gets caught a couple days later when he's burglarizing a house.
He had no prior criminal record and he was married with three children.

And he got up the night of out of bed

where his wife was sleeping

to go find a woman to kill.

What?

Yeah.

But he had actually killed two other women

and he had never been caught.

And he did a bunch of burglaries as well.

Oh, so he is like a burgeoning serial killer.

Totally.

Absolutely.

Let's see.

He confessed to 30 to 40 burglaries.

it's a

Thank you. burgeoning serial killer.
Totally. Absolutely.
Let's see. He confessed to 30 to 40 burglaries.
A psychiatric examination suggested he was a necrophile. Fuck.
And then he said something. He said that his motive was simply he wanted to kill a woman.
That was his motive. Yeah, it's pretty sick.
I have to say, I've seen the picture of that guy. He has very plucked eyebrows.
He looks a lot like Prince and Richard Little had a baby. Richard Little? I'm not Richard Little.
Little Richard. Oh my God.
Where am I? Oh, no. No, that's exactly right.
He looks like a drag queen at the end of her shit. Totally.
Like, washed it all off, is ready to just you know. High cheekbones.
High cheekbones, very plucked eyebrows or something. Like a cat-like face.
Yes. Ugh.
Weird. I weird picturing seeing that face standing above me stabbing me because what is the deal what is the deal so all right he confesses um let's see he's a fucking necro so in the 70s he okay so while in prison in the 70s, he gets a Bachelor of Arts in sociology.
Okay, good. Insane.
Oh, good. Like, you're not using that for good, dude.
You're using that to understand how you can take advantage of people better. That is Ted Bundy action.
Right? Ted Bundy was a psychology major. Son of a bitch.
Yep. And they know.

Oh, that's so man. And then during his, he was eligible for

parole in 84, which is like, what the

fuck? And at his first parole hearing,

he told the

parole board

that the notoriety he faced

due to his crimes made him a victim, stating

Yes, he's the victim.

For a victim outside, it's a one

time or one hour or one minute

affair. But for the person who's

Thank you. students crimes made him a victim stating yes he's the victim yeah for a victim outside it's a one time or one hour or one minute affair but for the person who's caught it's forever yeah much sadder yeah much sadder oh you get a minute of murder and i have to live the rest of my life in jail well you know what how about you put your super sociological mind to that and say then maybe don't stab people and you won't be so deeply victimized by your fucking shitty behavior.
You're correct. And that's why you don't fucking not, that's not the only reason, but that's one of the reasons you don't murder.
Well, that's, this is the Brock Turner thing of like this, this drunken girl is ruining my whole future. It's like, no rapist.
You ruined your future. You did it, dummy.
Like it's the, it's like, no rapist. Yeah.
You ruined your future. Yeah.
You did it, dummy. Like it's very psychopathic.
It's like you skip over the thing you did that made things happen. Have you known people like that where you're like, how do you not see your role in this thing? Oh, yeah.
I'm asked that because I'm sure you do. I have stopped participating with people like that for that very reason.
If you cannot admit your own fault in your life, that the behavior that you bring to the table is the thing that affects and creates the situation around you. If it's always other people, then you have a major problem.
It's so weird to see those people. And like, I mean, it almost feels like an argument or the blame thing is like a game to win.
Yes. And so as soon as they can get you to not blame them and to take it all on you, which I've fucking done many times with people, they win.
You have to read the book, The Sociopath Next Door. Yeah.
Because I think the numbers are, it's one in four of people are sociopaths and those people have no conscience. Everything is a power game to them.
All they want to do is beat you and they will beat you in terms of money, in terms of sex, in terms of status.

That's all they care about.

And they don't have empathy.

So you're constantly left going, I would never do this.

But it's like, yeah, that's right.

Because this person is nothing like you.

Are you scared you're going to like, if you read that, you'll just like look for that in everyone?

I mean, I guess everyone.

You should look for it in everyone.

You should. Because then you know when you're being mind fucked,

you'll go, oh my God, that's,

oh, now I realize why I'm so,

like you need to know that information.

Yeah, okay.

You need to be able to spot a sociopath.

I think that should be taught in high schools.

Can I put it in a comic book

so Vince doesn't see me reading that

and think I'm like studying up on him?

Vince is not a sociopath.

I know he's not.

Oh, you just don't want him to see you paying attention to it?

Yeah, or like being like, why are you reading that?

Say, I'm doing it for you, baby.

Yeah.

This is for the marriage.

Should I say I'm a sociopath?

I think our cats are sociopaths.

One in four. I mean, if we had one more person in this room, it would be one of us.
I'm thinking it's so easy to like put some of that on people I know. Well, also because sometimes people just piss you off.
So it's like calling someone a sociopath is very satisfying. It's like, well, this makes sense.
But I do know people who after being friends with them for a while and then being like, I cannot be friends with you anymore. You're basically a vampire.
Then when you pull away and then you read this book, you go, holy shit. I mean, there's like a step-by-step thing where it's like, is this a person who would never cop to anything? Is this a person who only ever wanted to take more for themselves.
It's like a step by step thing Where it's like is this a person who would never Cop to anything is this a person who only Ever wanted to take more for Themselves it's like it's a very Clear kind of defining Thing fuck dude Read it I think I over Accept responsibility for things Because I don't I'm trying so hard Not to Let myself get away with shit Yes well part of it I do the exact same thing and for me part of it is an ego problem because I think the world revolves around me 100 so I like the idea of people of like oh my god this person is doing this and that like it it adds to my ego mania of like I'm everybody's thinking of me all the time there is a certain like, even being like, I feel so bad about this thing that happened where it's like, nobody, why are you making it about you? Right. Not you specifically, but like, it's better to let it go.
Like the healthier thing is to be like, maybe I had 50% of that. Maybe I had 0% of that.
Like, but look at it, learn from it, move on and let it go. But to sit around and be like, oh, I was so bad that time.
It's like, yeah, you're just thinking of yourself and not thinking of other people. Yeah.
I'm a sociopath. Are you? I'm in video right now.
No, you're not. One in three, one in three, including Elvis.
It's me. But what if it's me? No, it's not me.
Well, do you have a conscience? Yeah. And you're fine.
I mean, what's a conscience?

No, I'm totally guilty.

Guilt.

I mean, we got that covered.

Yeah.

Stephen.

Guilty.

Do you feel it?

I feel guilty all the time.

We're all good.

We just need the next person who walks through the store, which will probably be Ben.

It's the sociopath.

Let's play a game.

Your neighbor knocks on the door.

Excuse me. Hi, it's you.
My mom just drops in and I'm like, yeah, no shit. Hi, welcome.
Hi, my therapist was right about you. Could you answer some questions for me as I, let me just pull this book out of my back pocket.
Oh, mom. Okay.
What did I want to, what was my, let's see here. Holocaust survivors.
Yeah. None of the witnesses observed the attacks in their entirety because of the layout of the complex was weird.
And it seems like she was attacked in two different places. Yeah.
And as far as they knew, he ran away and she walked away and they couldn't see her anymore. And she was staggering.
I mean, she only got stabbed twice. So how do you know you couldn't even see that she was stabbed by the time you run to the window? See, I remember that story from psychology class that she got stabbed like 35 times.
She got stabbed a lot more once he came back to her. Oh, okay.
So that was... Oh, I see.
The initial attack. Witnessable part was two stabs.
Right. The initial, like when everyone saw it was two.
And then you had a private, you know, the doorway so no one actually saw that so terrible that's so nightmarish there's a um crime to remember about kitty kitty genovese yeah and i just was like okay i didn't even watch it you didn't know i'm sure i watched it because i watched every episode of that show there it's um there's also a girls episode where they like talk about it. Oh, really? Like one of the guys is in a play where they reenact the whole thing.
But of course, there's a lot of girls drama going on. So they don't really talk about it.
But I love that show. I'm not making fun of it.
Let's see. So it became known as the bystander effect or the Genevieve syndrome but people are now questioning what really fucking happened so everyone go to YouTube and you can watch the trailer it's called The Witness and if you go to thewitness-film.com it's in the theaters right now if you have an art house theater in your town and it's it's going to be in a lot of small towns so it's not like random and then hopefully it'll be on hulu or something at some point um yeah and then it's unlikely that she was able to scream at any point after she got stabbed the first time anyways because they stabbed her um because they stabbed her in the lungs.
Oh, yeah. That's right.
Yeah. They punctured her.
He punctured they. He punctured her lung.
So after that second stabbing, she probably wasn't screaming anyways. So it's not like a bunch of people ignored that as well.
This whole murder is like worst case scenario. Fucking worst.

She would have died from the initial attack, it sounds

like, because he punctured a lung and she

died from asphyxiation.

But...

And so if the cops had been called and at

that point they took her to the hospital and she died,

it wouldn't have been

the same thing as if he

fucking ran away and came

back and was like, nobody cares. Yeah.
I can continue this. Yeah.
That's so awful to think about. Yeah, it's dark.
Yeah. But the universal emergency phone number was created after this.
And yeah, today it's used

all the time.

But so yeah,

The Witness is the movie.

It's by James Solomon

and it's a really fat,

like just watch the,

I feel like anyone

who listens to this podcast

will watch this trailer

and definitely want to see it.

Yeah.

It's really good.

And it's such a classic case.

I feel like even if you were,

you've never been interested

in true crime,

you've heard the Kitty Genovese story. Yeah.
like prerequisite in college and stuff. But I guess it's an interesting thing to be like, yeah, you know, this thing that you've heard about your whole life, it's not the way you heard it.
That's what I love about it. So I hope it's not boring that I did this case, but I just thought it was the stuff that you'd never, you never knew about it.
And I really was, it's one of those cases where I was like, I've heard that a million times.

I know about it.

You fucking totally don't.

And then to see it from the brother's point of view,

who also is like kind of a badass dude himself.

Yeah.

It happened in the Bronx in Queens.

Queens.

Queens.

Yeah.

People from Queens are kind of the greatest.

Oh yeah.

The voice,

you listen to it just for the interviews he does with the people who live around there.

They're incredible.

For the accents.

The accents are incredible.

There's a lot of, there's like a beautiful illustrated element of it that they use as like interstitials to show what was actually going on with this gorgeous illustration.

Wow.

Yeah.

Very simple line drawings, but it's super beautiful.

I haven't seen this movie, but I also recommend the Crime to Remember episode about her, Kitty Jadavis, because they put out some other alternate theories that are very interesting. Wasn't one like the downstairs neighbor might have done it? Yeah.
They didn't seem convinced he did it, but none of that information that he'd already killed two other women was in there. They focused a lot on how racist the NYPD was back then.
And so that they basically would grab up black men and just be like, were you in the neighborhood? It's you. It sounds like way different than it is today.
Oh, so, so different. I would just like to say, because I saw a documentary.
Is yours done? Sure. Yeah, no, totally.
Oh, okay. No, it totally is.
Yeah. Well, I just saw this.
I'm going to bring yours to an end so I can recommend my documentary that isn't true crime. But well, it is because it's crime.
Yeah. It's called Tickled.
And it is unbelievably amazing because it starts out there about this online tickling competition, tickling league, professional tickling league, I think it's called. I already need a fucking shower.
Yes. Except for it's not what you think.
It's not some weird weird like can you believe these people exist it goes into

the craziest darkest scariest fucking thing and it's this one new zealand reporter who went who went looking into it because he's basically a human interest reporter for the local news and he immediately started getting threatened and so instead of being like whoops better close this up, he starts investigating.

And it's amazing. And

interestingly enough, and not to talk about them all the time, but our friends, The Dollop, who did a very, very popular episode about these tickling competitions very early on. This New Zealand reporter did the story.
Dave and Gareth got sent the story I think by people in Australia or New Zealand saying you guys have to talk about this it's crazy and so then they did that episode of the dollop was super popular and it's actually featured in the documentary shut up yes they have audio clips of the dollop talking about this he's And made it. And it's the very beginning of the movie.
And then it goes into like, he's like, he basically is like, yeah, I thought this was this kooky, crazy thing. And then I started researching it.
And it is edge of your seat. It was one of those things we saw at the Sunset Sundance, whatever theater.
And there was only like 10, 15 people in the theater. And a bunch of us were all sitting in one row,

which was kind of funny.

Like basically there was like nine people in one row and then like four

people outside of our row.

Yeah.

But by the end we were all talking to each other.

It was one of those like so upsetting and like,

Oh my God,

what's happening?

What channel is it on?

I want to watch it.

No,

it's a movie.

It's a documentary movie that's in like art house theaters right now.

Like the witnesses,

man,

we got to have a double feature.

Yes.

I wonder if we could have... I want to watch it no it's a movie it's a documentary movie that's in like art house theaters right now

like The Witnesses

man we gotta have

a double feature

yes

I wonder if we could

host a double feature

we should email this guy

I feel like we want to

do this

another

everything that comes up

you got an idea

man

I love it

what is that

it's the best

it's

you're

you're the reason

you're the reason

it's all happening

I always think of myself

as such a lazy person

and I'm like

constantly berating myself for being lazy. And then sometimes I'll have to write a list of things I'm doing to just be like, just look at this Georgia.
Everything is okay. Yeah.
No, you're doing a lot of stuff. I liked when we were watching The Simpsons and we were on the same episode.
And then you were like, we've got to watch episode five together and live tweet it. And I was like, you might want to watch the other episodes before you decide we should live tweet this.
It's kind of a bummer. I know.
I was like, what if we do this? What if we do that? We can do this. We can do that.
And like sometimes like when you just got here, you were like, you kind of had a talk, like we had a conversation about something regarding the podcast and you kind of had to like talk me down from it. Yeah.
I couldn't breathe. I get it though.
Yeah. You get, I can tell when you're excited or like there's a lot going on because you're, it almost looks like you're slowly drowning and you're trying to tell me something before you go under.
I can't. It's kind of what it's like.
Take a deep breath. It's happened my entire life.
Yeah. Like I have to yawn.
I yawn a lot because I have to catch my breath. And so I get so worked up.
That's funny that you've noticed it. You have to think about breathing more.
Yeah. Because that's what yawning is about.
Yawning is about low oxygen levels. Yeah.
And you have to like, your body goes, take this, take as much oxygen in as you can. It's so like, I've gotten up in the middle of the night and like wrote a and wrote a blog post about how you really feel like you're drowning and you can't breathe.
Yeah. And it's just anxiety.
And then that perpetuates itself and you just still can't breathe. And anyways.
Yeah. So a lot of great ideas, guys.
A lot of great... Oh, there was someone that made...
My favorite piece of art that got made on the the that got posted on the Facebook page last week is someone did a freehand drawing that was a picture of the forest that said, get a job, make it buy your own shit, stay out of the forest. But but with these banners, did you see that? Yeah, it's so beautifully done.
And it was someone who said their friend did it, but they're not, they don't want to be

on the Facebook page.

Come on, man.

Bless their souls.

I got an email from a girl that I know today who was like, I just started a new job and

I overheard my coworkers saying, oh my God, I'm obsessed with this new podcast.

And they were like, me too.

And they were like, what's it called?

My favorite murder.

And my friend Kelsey was like, I was trying, I wanted to tell them so bad and brag that I knew you, but it's a new job. And I was like, tell them, look at a raise.
She's like, I'm going to hold it for four more days and then drop the bomb. And be like, guess what? Yes.
I love it. It makes me happy that a lot of people say they feel like we're best friends.
Totally. Not with each other.
Best. There it is.
And and that's it we're done stay sexy no are we yes okay go do it again stay sexy don't get murdered I almost want a cookie want a cookie that's a yes? That's a yes. Bye.
Okay, we're back. Are there case updates on a story this old? Yes, actually.
Well, first of all, I love the detail. And I think these are the things we look for now in stories that this case created the universal emergency phone number 9-1-1, which is like just fascinating to me.
You know, okay, this is early on, episode 24. I did not mention when my story took place.
When. That little detail.
A journalist would have caught that, you know, the who, where, when, what, how, you know. You know what? Smarter people than me have covered this and you should go read and listen to their shit.
I am covering their coverage. And I forgot to mention that this took place in 1964.
I was sitting across from you and I didn't ask. It's so ridiculous.
And also the man who killed Kitty Genovese, Winston Mosley, died in a New York prison in 2016. So fucking recently.
He served almost 52 years and was one of the state's longest serving inmates. And it's so terrifying when I was telling the story that he was trying to get parole and you're just like, absolutely fucking not.
All right. Well, that was it.
That was the boiled down version of this episode. So now we'll talk about what we could have entitled it instead of 20 justice for all.
And the number the word for is F-O-U-R. You know, it's not visual.
Yes. This is an auditory situation that we were doing written jokes like page jokes for.
Lots of mistakes. We were very tired and working very hard and very surprised that anyone was listening to this fucking podcast we meant very well we did we still do and also that's the thing we'll say it again and again we're just people doing a podcast that's all yeah that's all yeah that's it all right so let's see we could call it obstetric we could call this episode obstetrician of t-shirts because i don't even fucking know that was you because yeah merch that's me saying that that's what you are by being the merch girl we could also call it plans and schemes which was all the ideas we had about doing unboxings I like that.
Plans and schemes. It's so funny.
Like way back then, we were like, maybe we'll do video. And it's like, now we have to do video.
It's like, it's like required in today's world, today's modern world. Gotta compete.
Gotta get out there. Gotta do podcasts on video.
We're on YouTube and TikTok and fucking Instagram and fucking all the shit. It's fun to be middle-aged on fucking all those websites.
Yeah, like, and this, when this episode recorded, I was 36 and I was like, not yet video. No, let me be 40 fucking four before I have to be on video.
Let's wait a minute. Let's, I'm going to dig my 11 lines down a little deeper.
I want to have way more stress and then see what that does to my old face. You know, I want to wait until this filler migrates before I get fucking lit from below and fucking on camera.
Let's just wait until it's in the wrong places. We should have actually done flashlights under our chins for the Halloween episode, now that I think about it, now that you

say that. It all feels like

flashlights under the chin when you're on

video. It's tough, but also

what we have to remember is no

one gives a shit anymore. No one gives a shit.

No one gives a single shit.

No, and I'm learning contouring, finally.

So I think I'm going to be fine.

Can't wait until I'm sitting across from Kim

Kardashian. What a joy.
Okay, Thanks everybody for listening back then. Now.
Were you there? Are you here now? Oh my God. That's so nice of you.
Thank you. You must be so patient.
Stay sexy. And don't get murdered.
Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

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