Kylie on Baby Finn’s Birth Story, Kelce Sisters First Meeting & Newborn Bliss Reality Check | Ep. 17

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Not going to lie, I just had my baby two days ago. Literally two good days ago.
And she's here for her first episode of Not Going to Lie. Look at that.
Ta-da! That was good. Let's get this show started.
Welcome back to Not Gonna Lie, a wave original brought to you by Nanit. And welcome to my postpartum special.
If you're thinking to yourself, how is Kylie podcasting right now? Didn't she just have a baby like yesterday? Say less. I did.
It's right there.

Yep. I'm your host, Kylie Kelsey.
No longer pregnant. Slept a grand total of maybe four

hours last night. And I just gave birth to my fourth daughter,

literally two days ago. Oh, shit.
Yeah, that's right. I'm officially a mom of four.
It feels really weird to even consider that if we went to a restaurant, we would say, Kelsey, party of six. oh yeah four kids four kids and four car seats.
What the fuck are we doing? I got back from the hospital a little over 24 hours ago. I don't...
We're lucky I can form a sentence right now, okay. I wanted to do a postpartum special because

I felt like it was important to put a little bow on the, on the end of my pregnancy. And also

I wanted people to see, now there's going to be a population of people that are like,

you hungry. I just had a human being exit my body.
Okay. Am I sitting on an ice pack? Yes.
Have I gotten much sleep? No. I'm going to spare you the other details because my next step was going to be yes.
We can just bleep that out. I told Queen Emma that I wanted to do this all the way back in January.
And she was like, nah, we could just start maternity leave. And I was like, nah, Queen Emma, we got to show the people.
We got to show them what postpartum looks like it It's going great. I just thought it would be funny to record an episode with my baby.
Isn't this funny? Do you realize it's crazy that you're taping this show right now? Yes, I do. Although it seems that I'm just unhinged, I'm actually self-aware and unhinged.
It's a great combination. Coming up on today's postpartum special, I'm going to kick things off by getting real honest about my birth story because I'm sure you want to know.
I'm also going to bring back one of my personal favorite segments. You know what's fucked up? Featuring the phenomenon known as newborn bliss.
No. Plus, you're also going to get the do's and don'ts of speaking to postpartum women because some of y'all need to take notes.
And after that, I'll end the show with a special segment on maternal mental health with the help of acclaimed author and therapist, Rebecca Foxstar. But first, there's a very important topic I need to address.
It's been the number one question on this show. 17 episodes in, I've asked guests to weigh in on it.
There's been at least 62,000 headlines written about it. And I'm of course talking about our newborn daughter's name.
Half the comments on our YouTube channel are just names with zero context. Queen Emma wrote this rundown with screenshots from social media.
Queen Emma hasn't even seen the number of DMs that I have received on this exact topic. It's overwhelming.
Well, I'm delighted to say this saga has officially concluded. And I warned you.
So all the people who are going to be triggered by the fact that this name does not have two Ts, I warned you. I gave you fair warning.
I said, you know what? There's a decent chance that this baby doesn't even have two Ts. I said it.
Roll the clip. If we don't have two Ts, it's okay.
And she's still one of us. It was the journey.
We, uh, for the first 24 hours of her life, she did not have a name, I would say. We had an idea.
We had discussed names with anyone that we could trust to not share names. And we didn't go with a single option that we had been discussing.
So there's that. Her name is Finley Ann Kelsey.
We plan to call her Finn for short. We picked her name when the time came to fill out the paperwork so we could get discharged.
She was baby girl Kelsey there for a minute. And I considered just letting that one roll.
It was going to be a very like Phoebe from friends moment of like, Oh, you named her baby girl. You know? Uh, we didn't.
She, uh, she was born at one 27 in the morning. We filled out her paperwork.
Yeah. I think at nine o'clock the morning we got discharged.
It's, I swear to God, the only thing I had was her middle name. And it's the most generic.
I love that. I'm just roasting myself.
Like there's nothing we can do. The paperwork is filled out and they're on their way to the government.
I don't know what... Fuck.
Some of the other contenders that did not make the cut, we briefly considered the name Colette and call her Cole. We considered Georgie, but I didn't like anything that got us to Georgie.
No offense to anyone whose name gets you to Georgie. Uh, one of the other names we considered was Winifred.
Uh, that is not the name of our dead dog. Uh, her name was Winnie and we had plans to call the baby Freddie.
Cause I think a little girl named Freddie has to be like so badass and so cute. Like I've said

before, I totally respect your opinion on the names of our children. You're allowed to have your own opinion.
But I actually don't care what it is. And I mean that in the most like loving and respectful way.
We named them.

And it's official. Also, she's very much a Finn.
Like she's a cute little Finn. The name Finn was not one of the names that we were discussing with other people, but came back around because it was a serious contender for Elliot's name.
So when we were pregnant with Ellie,

we were bouncing back and forth between Finley and Elliot.

So considering we had to name four children with the same gender,

we had to run it back to the archives and borrow one from a different child. Her middle name is Anne, A-N-N-E.
It covers a lot of people in my life. My mom's middle name is Anne, although it's spelled differently, but we already have an Elizabeth, so she's cool.
Lisa's covered. The people in our life that are associated with the name Ann with an E would be my dad's mom.
That was her first name. My sister's middle name is after my mom.
My cousin's middle name is after my mom. And Annie Elliott is actually Ann.
We named her Finley and Kelsey. Now you know how Finn got her name.
So let's get to the story of her birth. Oh no, this is Can I Be Honest About My Birth Story.
I'll tell you everything I can remember, you know, so I can, I can't with this track pad. She's mad about it.
Hold on. That was difficult.
It feels so nice to bend down and not have someone, a human being in my ribs. Okay.
I'll tell you everything I can remember about when we met you. I'll start with the lead We reported for my induction on Saturday.

I have to evict the children I grow. We tried everything.
I tried doing sprints up my friend's driveway. I tried doing sprints in the backyard with my children.
I tried, um, eating an excess of pineapple. I tried red raspberry leaf tea.
I tried, oh God, what else? Spicy food. I tried, oh, I had two massages in a matter of five days.
I tried a warm bath, not a hot bath, a warm bath. I tried stretching.
I tried the, uh, exercise ball. I tried everything to get this child to come out naturally.
And it wasn't going to happen because when I showed up to the hospital after two weeks of being one centimeter dilated, guess how dilated I was? That's right. One centimeter.
It's so mad. Like I just thought maybe like the fourth, you know, maybe the fourth will come and decide to come out.
Like my body will say, we've done this a couple of times. We know what you're trying to do.
Let's get this baby out. No, it's not what happened.
It's fine. She came out.
Um, again, baby's going to do what baby wants to do. Baby was comfy.
Finn said, nah, I'm good in here, mom. And then we served an eviction notice.
Uh, Jason did not bring an air mattress. I was actually very surprised about that, but he did bring his fan.
And he didn't fan it on me. So he's a-okay.
We are definitely regulars in labor and delivery to a point that we really, at this point, have regular nurses that we see. And I love it there.
It's like a second home at this point. We do get in and get out.
One of the charge nurses who I love dearly, Teresa, she said, it seems like we're using it as a drive-through. I respect it.
We're definitely all business in and out. I did not say I'll see you next time this time around.
I didn't say that because poor school. Uh, then we got right into the induction.
I was in labor from, uh, probably, I don't know, two, three o'clock. I don't know what time I got an epidural, but right after I got my epidural, I got the shakes.
If anybody knows about the shakes, I thought she was coming down the chute. I could not control myself.
I was like teeth chattering. Jason was like, are you good? I was not good.
Can confirm that. I got some Zofran.
I feel like this is a breach of HIPAA telling my own shit. I got Zofran because I don't like to feel nauseous.
It's that simple. I'm not into that.
And so I got that. We didn't even start the Pitocin before the Cytotec kicked in.

And I started having regular contractions, which at first I couldn't feel. And then I could.
As soon as I could feel them, we called the anesthesiologist because it was time. And you know the deal.
I got a fat needle in my back after my epidural. We used the peanut ball and we flipped it on my side so that the epidural wouldn't settle.
It would go down both legs. I will say my right leg was dead to the world.
And if you've ever had an epidural, you know how it goes. Sometimes you're like, oh, I can lift my leg.
And then you go to try and help the person lifting your leg. You're not helping.
But my team that I had for the night shift, we got that epidural moving in the right direction. And then after my first round of shakes, I took what is one of the best naps I've ever had.
And that's an epidural nap and that shit hits. And then when I woke up, it was time.
I got the shakes again and I felt pressure. I don't know that you, people who have not felt this necessarily want to know this, but the question that I was asked during my first labor was, do you feel pressure in your rectum? And you don't know what that means until you know what it means.
And then you're like, get them back in here. Now I know what they're talking about.
So this time around I was like, Hey, I feel the pressure. And by that, I mean, I said, Hey, I feel the pressure.
And then she was here. It was delightful.
Jason held up my back and helped me hold my leg. And I grabbed onto Jason's arm.
I'm not sure. At some point I was like, Ooh, I shouldn't, I shouldn't dig in quite that hard because I had gripped him up.
So I was, I think I might have been a little rough, but I didn't think I would, that was not my focus, obviously. No.
Jason did cut the cord. When I will say this, when he cut the cord, it was as if he has cut three other cords.
Cause he went into that. He knew like how difficult it was going to be.
If you know, you know. He just snip, snip, done.
It was impressive. I don't, I don't, I'm not even trying to hype him up for like the only thing the guys do that day.
He said, he's a very well, I've, I'm on record so many times saying this. He's a very well-versed support person.
He does a great job getting water and ice. He checks in with me on a regular basis.
He's not standing over me trying to figure out what he can do. He does this thing.
He checks in on me. And he holds my back up, which is so helpful for.
Cause like, if you get a really good crunch on a push, you can really bear down and make it worthwhile. He's a great support person and, uh, was very, very helpful, but he also nailed the cutting the court.
My first meal after giving birth was Bart's bagels, pork rolling and cheese on everything. And oh my gosh, oh my gosh, a pepperoni pizza bagel on a plain bagel.
It was so good. And Jason and I split one and the minute I bit into my half, I was like, shit, I shouldn't have split it with him.
but I did. God, it was so good.
I'm going to get one of those tomorrow. And that's it for, can I be honest about my birth story? I'm going to go change my ice pack now.
If you know, you know, while I do that, enjoy this message from a very tired blonde woman about one of her favorite baby products, Nanit. The real ones might already know I'm a huge fan of Nanit and their amazing baby monitor from the video Jason posted a couple years ago of Wyatt singing the entire Eagles fight song from her room.
It was an amazing moment of pride. Nanit is creating an entirely new experience for parents with their award-winning baby monitor and sound machine that lets you see your baby anytime, anywhere, all from the convenience of your phone.
NANET has so many features that I love, like the real-time notifications for sound, motion, standing, and more. And honestly, the split screen is a game changer because there's so many of them.
We're so outnumbered. I actually, while I was in the hospital, was able to get an alert in the morning for Wyatt's Nana camera.
And then I tapped into it to get to say good morning to her and let her know to be nice to Nana. Yes, I really did that.
And she knows to look up at the camera and talk back to me. It's a little crazy maybe, but I like it.
Go to Nana.com for 20% off your first purchase with code Kylie20. Don't be sad.
Don't be sad. Mom's right here.
Okay. No, I said don't.
Oh, wakey, wakey, eggs and bakey. You want it? Your eyes look very blue against this sweatshirt.
She said, give me that microphone. God, you're cute.
I'm biased because I made you, but.

And we're back, as is this next segment that's backed by popular demand. But this time you're

getting the sequel. Not Gonna Lie presents the do's and don'ts of talking to postpartum women

brought to you by Love Every. Love Every designed by experts for your child's developing brain.

Please enjoy this guide on what you should and should not say to the women in your life who have just welcomed a new baby. First up, please don't say anything about her weight or her looks in general.
Chances are she's probably not sleeping very much. And quite frankly, her body just built another human.

Your input is fucking irrelevant.

Any of the input of you haven't had the baby yet

or when can you exercise again?

Breastfeeding makes the weight come off quicker.

I hope she slaps you clean across the face.

Also, like the whole look great.

Let's instead tell her she's doing great because who gives a shit to what we look like right now? Not I. Do ask if you can do anything to help.
Some examples include bring over some food, offer to babysit the older children, help with anything around the home. I mean anything.
Start the dishwasher, start a load of laundry, clean out the fridge, maybe bring over some groceries. Do not bring over treats and sweets for the older children so that they then bounce off the walls and want to jump across the couch while the mom is holding the newborn.
You see what I'm saying? Let's work smarter, not harder here. Okay.
You should offer or ask if you can hold babies so mom can shower, go for a walk, get some coffee, drink a hot drink without the risk of spilling on a child. All of those things.
Don't ask when she's going to have another baby. Are you shitting me? If she's still wearing a diaper or an ice pad, what are you doing? She's not even cleared for Hanky Panky.

Leave that woman alone.

Don't, and I cannot stress this enough,

do not tell her to sleep while the baby's sleeping.

That is fucking absurd.

Do you know what you're supposed to do when the baby's sleeping?

Watch them sleep, of course. I'm kidding.
But really, that is one of the most asinine pieces of advice that people give to new moms. It's not realistic.
When are you supposed to eat or do anything or talk to other human beings or function if you sleep when the baby sleeps? Silly piece. That's a dumb piece of advice.
This next one's a combo. Do wash your hands and don't kiss the damn baby.
Okay? First of all, am I a germaphobe? Yes. Well established here.
Okay. But I'm going to tell you right now, the fact that people still will come into a house to meet a newborn baby and not immediately head to the sink to wash their hands with warm water and soap for at least 20 seconds is mind boggling to me.
I don't want your germs on this child. She itty bitty and your germs are big.
Okay. Cut it out.
Also very simple. Don't kiss the baby.
Don't kiss that baby. Don't kiss them on their face,

on their head, on their hands. That's awful.
I want to make this abundantly clear. I have a rule with my kids and they know it for certain.
The only place you should be touching a baby if you feel inclined to touch a baby after you wash your hands is on their piggies. That's it.
You don't need to touch them on their hands. Why? Why shouldn't you touch their hands? Where do their hands go? Touch their piggies.
Oftentimes, they can't quite get their piggies to their mouth. Now, if they're flexible like a Wyatt, all bets are off.
Don't you dare mention the stains on her clothes. Do you think she wants to be reminded of the fact that two hours ago she got spit up on and has still forgotten to change her shirt? No, this is a no judgment zone.
She's allowed to have spit up, dried milk, really anything else. The only thing you should really be tipping her off on, I'd say poop.
I'm going to go ahead and say it because that's just unsanitary. You see what I'm saying? Everything else, you see nothing.
You see nothing and you smell nothing because spit up after like 20 minutes, you know what I'm talking about. And lastly, one more bonus don't.
And this one came up in the do's and don'ts of talking to pregnant women. So I'll keep it brief.
Don't say shit about breastfeeding. I mean that with my whole chest.
Fed is best, motherfuckers. That's it for do's and don'ts of talking to a postpartum mother brought to you by Love Every.
Let us know what I missed and which ones you've heard the most. At NGL with Kylie.
Next, in honor of Finn, my fourth baby girl, I'm going to answer four-ish questions. Queen Emma thinks the real ones would like to have answered about our first few days of being a family of six.
Number one, how did the girls meeting with their new baby sister go? Benny is still ticked. She is annoyed.
she told me put baby down. Why baby came.
It's not going great. Wyatt is very excited.
She keeps walking by and going, oh my gosh, she's just so cute. And Ellie is excited and wants to be helpful.
And they both just want to keep touching her piggies. It's funny because Ellie keeps coming by and saying, can I touch your piggies? And I'm like, she's sleeping.
And she's like, okay, can I touch your piggies? So yeah, we've had a few waking moments just because we needed to touch piggies. And she'll be better for it.
Well adjusted. Number two, you've only been home one day.
What's the biggest difference going from three to four? I actually don't know because we have deployed the village. Lilice, my mother, has around.
Uh, Jason has been home and we've had my nieces. We've had our, um, nanny.
We've had just people around. Um, I am a firm believer in the phrase, it takes a village.
It is not, you should not feel shame in asking for help or having people around, especially family, because our girls absolutely love when my mom's around, when our nieces are around. And so it makes for a more positive experience.
And I think one of the best things you can do when you bring a new baby home is make it a overall positive experience for all the other kids. So that's really what we're trying to do.
Make it so that everyone's wants and needs are answered, that no one feels that they are falling to the wayside because there's a new baby in the house. Number three, how are you doing? What's the biggest postpartum pain or annoyance for you? Um, I'm doing great.
I don't know that I would lean into thriving. I would say surviving.
Uh, uh, we have not quite gotten into a routine. The good news is, is that we have an agreement that I am currently her favorite person.
It could be that I provide the food. It could be that I smell familiar.
I think all of the... It could be that I sound familiar.
I think all of these are contributing factors to the fact that we get along the best right now. And that's very convenient because there are a few things more frustrating than having an inconsolable child that no one can soothe.
That'll make your head spin. But we're not quite on a routine yet.
So we're still working out the kinks. We're not really a like aggressively scheduled shocker family.

And so when it comes to newborns, we just sort of let them sort it out. We do the whole like keep them in bright rooms during the day to make sure we don't mess up their days and nights.
We'll try and get on a relatively good schedule. The only thing I'm really focused on right now is making sure that she eats every two to three hours.
So besides that, that's all I got going. I will say that I feel strongly every single time that that placenta leaves my body, that I get a little bit back of myself because that really, for some reason, those pregnancy hormones, they get me.
So I automatically feel a little bit better. That being said, I just birthed a human.
So it's, I mean, it's not, it's, it's an even trade, I think.

And the last one, number four, who does Finn look like the most so far? Um, I'm pretty sure

that when they picked her up from between my legs, I said, oh, it's another Kelsey.

You'll have to go to Jason on that one because I think I blacked out. But I'm pretty sure that when she first was removed from my womb, I said, oh, another Kelsey.
um have since thought that she has more of Ellie's nose and Wyatt's eyes. But I firmly believe that when they come out as a newborn, they look like an alien.
I said what I said. I said what I said and I stand by it.
And they need time, maybe like two, three weeks to start to look like themselves and also gain some weight because then they get to sort of come into their own. And also, this is what I will say this.
When they come down the chute, tight squeeze, and they're often swollen, sometimes even bruised on their face. So it's very hard to tell who they look like or what they're going to look like.
So this is where like three, four weeks makes a massive difference. I'm very excited to see who she looks like.
I think she's going to be a combination, which is kind of what Benny was. So we'll see.
I'm excited. But she definitely has, Ellie is officially our only one with blonde hair on the way out.
She had like blonde peach fuzz. And Finn clearly has gotten the hair of the others.
So that's it. That's all I can say for certain.
That's it for four-ish questions. And now for the return of one of my personal favorite segments.
You know what's fucked up? This week on my postpartum special, you know what's fucked up? The phrase newborn bliss. And I have the official definition right here.
to Google AI. Newborn bliss refers to the intense joy and happiness experienced by new parents during the early days and weeks after the birth of their child.
It encompasses the overwhelming love, wonder, and sense of fulfillment that comes with bringing a new life into the world. Now, I will preface this with, if that is your experience, I am so happy for you.
I do think to some degree with each of our children, we have had a few of those moments where it's just absolutely like you are in awe of the fact that the two of you have just come together to build another human being and that they are actually here and that they are, although alien-like, adorable and that it's crazy what you have just done. But the fact that especially social media likes to sensationalize that everyone has this newborn bliss and that it's the whole day, every day that you are just soaking up every minute of that newborn baby and that you are enjoying every second of it and that it is beautiful top to bottom.
Parenthood as a whole is a lot, specifically the newborn phase, because they are entirely reliant on you. They can't walk anywhere.
They can't crawl anywhere. They can't tell you what they need.
You're still learning each other. This is difficult, like truly challenging.
and to try and say that everyone should feel newborn bliss is bananas. I have definitely experienced, like I said, bliss for each of my children, but I have also experienced a degree of baby blues or postpartum.
Specifically, I know that I had baby blues with Wyatt. I do think I had some degree of postpartum with Benny.
You know it, especially when you get on the other side of it, it becomes very clear. Hindsight is 20-20.
But these are the feelings that I was having. I was openly discussing with my mom.
I would openly discuss them with Jason. I would openly discuss them with friends because I was not afraid to voice the concerns or thoughts that I was having.
Because you think to yourself, why am I having anxiety or thinking so hard about what could happen? Am I going to drop my baby down the steps while I'm walking down the steps? Probably not. But why does my brain think that that's top concern? and I'm not even going on the steps.

Do you see what I'm saying? Like the thought of what happens if I roll over on my baby in the middle of the night, that's physically not possible. They're in a bassinet.
The bassinet pet is not connected to your bed. They're also two weeks old.
How is the baby? They can't get out of the bassinet. The bassinet has sides.

Bathtub. What? You want me to put this baby in water?

They flail. Do I have my hand on it the whole time? Yes.
Is there still a risk of drowning? Yes. Is it logical? Probably not.
Because my hand is on them the whole time. But saying these things out loud, these are things that I think for a very, very, very long time, women were not saying out loud because they thought to themselves, people will think I'm crazy.
If I say that I can't stop thinking about all the ways that my child could die. When in reality, it's just your brain making sure that, well, first of all, it's your brain on hormones.
This is your brain on hormones. Give yourself some credit.
You just grew a human. You're having severe hormone shifts.
And if this is something that's ruling your thoughts and controlling your life and like forcing you into decisions, you should speak up. You should speak up.
You should talk to someone. You should talk to your doctor.
I do think it's crazy that you get a questionnaire when you're leaving the hospital. And then you get another questionnaire, I believe at your six week follow-up.
And then you're released into the world. And that's it.
You're released into the world and they say, we'll see you back at your annual. That's on women's health.
That's not even like, that's not even a specific doctor thing. That is like across the board, the standard of women's health postpartum.
And I think part of that is the difficult part is that who are you supposed to go to?

Do you go to your PCP? Do you go to your OBGYN? When do you call? This is not great. Here's the deal.
If you are postpartum, if you know someone else who is postpartum, check in on them. Speak some of your thoughts out loud to your friends, family, your loved ones.
say the things out loud so that if it is something that is alarming, that you cannot personally clock.

That they... Say the things out loud so that if it is something that is alarming, that you cannot personally clock, that they are able to then say to you in a very gentle way that maybe you should call your doctor and discuss the thoughts and feelings you're having.
And that's nothing to be ashamed of. The play kits by Love Every help families learn and play together while

also inspiring hours of independent fun. Love Every's play kits include stage-based play things that keep your child engaged, help them learn, and age up for years of play.
I've actually got one here designed for Benny's age range. I would pick it up and show you, but you know what else I have? a fin in my lap.
The play kit for Benny's age range includes a sink. Yeah.
An actual working sink. And it is one of the cutest things you've ever seen to see kids sit down in front of it and try to wash little dishes.
It's incredible and helpful because then I'm like, Hey, get up to the big sink, ladies. If you're tall enough to reach it, you can do it.
I'm kidding. But I do love watching them wash the little dishes.
Explore the play kits at loveevery.com. That's L-O-V-E-V-E-R-Y.com.
NGL listeners can get an exclusive discount on their first subscription order by

entering code Kylie at checkout. I want Kylie Kelsey here, soon to be mom of four, field hockey coach, and opinionated kids toy purchaser.
You guys might've heard me talk about my list of toys I'd prefer you don't buy my children, but what I haven't shared are the toys I'm very on board with. The Play Kits by Love Every.
I did subscribe to this for my girls and these toys have lasted through every single child. They are beautifully built.
We absolutely love them and I can still hear the tinking of the one that rolls the colors with a little marble inside. You can hear it.
We still have

that. And the tissue box was surprisingly hilarious.
Every time I would pull a tissue out and throw it into the air, Elliot specifically thought that it was a joke that couldn't be beat. We love our Love Every toys and we have stored them away to rotate them back out for our newest edition.
Explore the play kits at loveevery.com. That's L-O-V-E-V-E-R-Y.com.
NGL listeners can get an exclusive discount on their first subscription order by entering the code REALONES at checkout. I'm going to dedicate a segment of today's episode to discussing the realities of postpartum depression, which brings me to today's guest.
She's an acclaimed author, therapist, and dedicated advocate for maternal mental health and postpartum mood disorders. She created the hit blog, Mommy Ever After, and has a brand new book out now called, Am I Doing This Right? Rebecca Foxstar, thank you so much for joining me today.
Thank you for having me.

I have had the pleasure of meeting you and getting to discuss some of the interesting intricacies of postpartum and the experience of hormone shifts and things like that. I'm so grateful for you joining me today.
I've been open about my own struggles with postpartum for anyone who isn't familiar with your story. How did this issue become so important to you? Well, I was a mommy blogger back in the day when Instagram didn't really exist or it was new.
I I didn't have Instagram back in 2010. So I started sharing about motherhood because I felt like it was kind of lonely and isolating.
So I started to write about it. And then when I had my second child in 2013, I started to not feel right.
And I did what I knew how to do, which was write about it and share about it. And that's when I learned that there were other people who didn't feel quite right during and after their pregnancies too.
And I had severe prenatal and postpartum anxiety and depression without knowing what those things were. And as a practicing therapist, what should new mothers as well as their friends and family be looking out for? So I think that baby blues are what a lot of us, most people who have children experience.
You feel exhausted. You feel completely wiped out.
You're not sleeping. You're not nourishing really well.
You have a new baby or multiple children to take care of. And so I'd say that is pretty normal where you can still function.
Maybe you're weepy. Maybe you're exhausted.
Maybe things are hitting you a little bit harder. When you are going on to more than two weeks or so, when you're feeling like you're really not yourself, specifically you can't find joy in places that you normally would find joy, that's when you want to start looking a little bit more closely and saying, maybe I need a little bit more help.
Now, I have said before that I definitely feel like I had baby blues specifically with our first to a point where I've told people like that sweet spot for me was eight weeks when she started smiling at me on purpose. Because then it was clear that there was a connection.
Up to that point, it was like transactional, right? Like she's only crying because she needs something. And once the something is fixed, then it's like, okay,

I don't, I'm done. The interaction is done.
But once they can smile at you, I really felt like that was the turning point for us. She also was a terrible sleeper.
So I found that lack of sleep, I say now is like the worst form of torture. It is torture.
That's how they torture people. Because you start like almost like hallucinating and you are like, did I dream that or did I experience that? And you're going through your everyday life in such a haze that you almost can't like experience life.
So that was like baby blues for me was very true for her in a sense of up to that eight-week point, I was like, are we cool? Do we have a connection? And then it was crazy because after my first, when we brought our second home, I very much understood that after that

six to eight week mark that we would feel that sort of interaction or communication.

And so there was that anticipation got me through that where I didn't feel the same

way, which was very interesting to experience.

You bring up a couple of really important points.

First of all, just the fact that you knew you had this gut feeling that it was going to get better. That's so powerful.
You knew what to expect. And I think that for a lot of people suffering, there's so much pressure on new moms, even if they're seasoned moms and they have a new child to be so happy.
Aren't you so happy? Oh my gosh, you have a baby. This is what you wanted.
And that may be true. And that's often true.
And at the same time, it's so hard and there's so much guilt around maybe not feeling the bond, maybe feeling apathetic or feeling unsure or feeling bored or scared or lonely or any of those things. So I think that knowing that it will get better, that things will get better, that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, it can be so, so powerful.
And the other thing that you raised that you brought up for me was that I don't expect you to find joy in things that ordinarily wouldn't be joyful. Who would want to be getting up in the middle of the night, being covered in poop, being thrown up on a milk machine in whatever way you're providing milk for your baby? That's not fun.
So if you're not finding joy in that, I think that that's normal. We don't need to pathologize that.
I think it's when you're not able to function in the way that we would expect you to function, that there are happy, exciting things that you can't find joy in,

that's when we want to take a little bit more notice and take that a little bit more seriously. Now, you've said, and I quote, I failed the postpartum screening given as protocol by the hospital, and yet they sent me home.
What's missing from that screening? that's a great question. That's the reason why I am sitting here today for many reasons, literally because thankfully I was able to get help and then go back to school and become a therapist.
But that's really my motivation is I fell through the cracks and I was so lucky, but so, so many people are going to fall through the cracks without even knowing, without anyone else knowing. So I was given a paper screening and I filled out- You just filled it out yesterday.
Was it still on paper? It was still on paper. You could technically do it in your portal, but I did opt for a paper version.
So you did the EPDS and I suspect your provider may or may not see that survey. And you answer questions that are like, are you finding joy in places you had found joy before? And then there's a question that's, you know, to give a trigger warning, but about harm, are you finding any thoughts about harming yourself or someone else? And I got a really high score.

When I say I failed, I got a very, very high score.

I was at high risk for severe postpartum depression.

And I was sent home.

It was kind of a formality.

So I think what is missing is, first of all, just education around the screenings.

I think that what do you do when someone does get a high score? For me, I don't know if anyone ever saw it. So there is no way to capture me.
So I think that knowing what to do, giving education and connection to people during that screening process or during the process when they're in the hospital, or even as I'm sure you're experiencing now, you see the pediatrician a lot more often than you see a doctor for yourself, right? Yes. So you go to the pediatrician, maybe there's a way for the pediatricians to capture how the mom's doing.
But there are a lot of places where if we could just intervene a little bit, even just giving material to say, hey, are you feeling this way? This is normal. We don't want you to feel this way.
Not normal, like this is acceptable, but this is predictable. We can expect you to feel this way.
And like we said, it gets better. Right.
Now, I said earlier in this episode, actually, that I do think it's crazy that you fill out your questionnaire at the hospital.

I do believe that at least my provider reissues it at my six-week follow-up. Great.
But then you're sort of like let loose, right? Like you're told like we'll see you for your annual visit, which is so alarming to me that the people that I have known, including like my own experience, six weeks out of birth is so soon to fully wrap your head around whether or not you are having thoughts or feelings of postpartum depression or anxiety. And of course, I feel as though I have a relationship with my providers that I know that if I ever needed anything that I could always reach out to them, that they would get back to me quickly, that they would have answers that I would need in that time.
But I do think that that is not typical of most people's experience. And that even just the idea of once you are in postpartum depression or anxiety, the task of having to then call the OB office, ask to get a call back from your provider or from the nurse on call, and then to have to articulate that over the phone once they call you back.
It's also the pressure of even answering that phone call, right? Like the thought of if you're in that space and you build up the courage to call, right? You take 10 seconds of courage and you hit the call button and you say like, I need my provider or the nurse to call me back. When the nurse calls you back, if you're not having a moment of courage, who's to say you're going to even answer that phone call? I could not agree more with that.
And I love that you gave that relatable scenario of you don't want to pick up the phone or you muster up the courage. Or let's say you don't even know to ask.
Let's say you don't even know what's going on. You just know that you don't feel right.
Like I said, I didn't know exactly what was going on. I knew that when I was pregnant with my son, I felt a lot of anxiety and then I had a scare and then suddenly I felt numb.
Nobody said to me, you're going through prenatal anxiety that morphed into prenatal depression after some trauma. Nobody said that.
So I didn't know and I should know. I didn't even know.
So I think that I love that you gave such a realistic scenario of having to find the time, the bandwidth to make a phone call and then what? And I think we release women and say, oh, you have to sleep. Is your baby sleeping? Okay.
You have to sleep when the baby sleeps. That is setting up a bunch of women for failure, to feel like failures, to not be able to thrive in the way that they deserve to.
Now, what would you say are the biggest misconceptions about postpartum mood disorders as a whole? That you somehow have done something wrong as a mother and that you can't have postpartum depression or a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder and love your baby and feel so grateful. Because I'm telling you, as someone sitting right here, I had a severe case of postpartum depression and never stopped loving my son.
Also, you can have doubts about your abilities as a mother. You can think, am I going to ever connect to this baby? Do I love this baby? Do I regret this? You can feel all of those things and still be worthy and still be a wonderful human being and mother and still know that you will get through this, it's temporary.
It's just like any disease. We just put so much pressure on ourselves to not feel this way and to not experience these things, but it's no different than any other affliction, especially if you think about pregnancy, preeclampsia.
Most people are not as hard on themselves about having something like preeclampsia or they are, or gestational diabetes as they are about having prenatal anxiety or depression

or postpartum depression.

Now, I mentioned it in your intro.

You have a new book available now called, Am I Doing This Right?

Making Choices Without Mom Guilt.

I've talked a little bit about mom guilt on the show before.

What helps you work through it? So I think mom guilt is going to exist, right? Like we all feel it at different points. I think that what I'm trying to do is normalize negative feelings in motherhood and really for our kids too.
So to say here, it's actually a choose your own adventure style book. I don't know if you remember that from when we were little.
Yes, absolutely. But it gives you choice points and you can make choices like, do I pick up my kid from the school nurse or do I tell them to tough it out and stay at school? And whatever thing you choose, whatever choice you make, there are coping skills to help you get through it.
It's not like, this is how to rid you forever from mom guilt because that's not realistic. That's not going to happen.
We're all going to feel negative feelings sometimes. It's how can we cope? How can we get through these things? And so I used my evidence-based clinical background to come up with coping skills based in DBT and CBT and other therapeutic modalities.
But also as a mom, I have a middle schooler and a high schooler now. And so I've lived a lot of this.
As I'm sitting here, I could be getting a call from the school nurse as we speak. And I have to make those decisions every day.
And I thought, if I'm going through this, other people must be going through these things. And so let's normalize them.
And I do think that normalizing these negative mental health issues or moods helps us to model for our kids that we're going to go through hard things. They're going to go through hard things, but we can get through those things instead of making it like we're all going to be happy all the time.
I don't think that does a service to ourselves or to our kids. Well, I think when you have the misconception of you're going to be happy all the time, that when you're not happy, you're far more likely to try and mask it because it's as if it's not acceptable.
Right. I do love the idea of the choose your own adventure for the book, because I think that that's one of the things that is sort of lost.
I think a lot of, in a lot of ways with social media about parenting, that there's not one way to parent your children. and you're not always going to make the same choice as someone else or what someone would

else might deem as the right choice.

And to be able to find comfort in your decision, no matter what it is in those moments, like picking your child up from the school nurse, whether you do it or you don't do it. that's like us parenting our kids differently or making different decisions as parents is one of the ways that we end up with unique and beautiful children.
And like, I talk about it with my girls all the time. Like we're different because that's what's beautiful.
Like you are the differences that we have with other people. That's what makes you unique.
And if you weren't unique, you wouldn't be you. And so it's so cool to hear that you're offering really that reassurance in however you choose to parent your child that it's not just the idea of am I doing this right is really, am I doing this right how I choose to do it.
Circling back to postpartum and just sort of that whole experience, in your own experience, in your professional experience, what are some of the things that maybe you've heard from people that they've said to you as if it's something that they should not have said out loud. Just in case people are segue into getting to speak to you today, I discuss those intrusive thoughts and just those things where you're like, oh, that's such an irrational thought, but you're having it.
I've talked about... I was talking with Queen Emma, our producer, about carrying a baby and looking at the steps and thinking, what if I fell up the steps right now while I'm holding the baby? And although when I experience those thoughts, it doesn't necessarily rule what I'm doing.
I don't choose not to then go up the steps or I don't slow myself down. I just let the thought leave or at least have in the past.
But what are those experiences that moms might be having where they're not dismissing those thoughts or that you would then suggest that's that moment of realization. I love that you said you let the thought go because that's the perfect DBT, CBT skills in action that you probably don't even realize you're doing.
But I think that when you're dealing with specific intrusive thoughts or those scary things that you might fear that you think about or you might fear could happen, saying there's no relationship between how much I believe something or me thinking something and how true it really is. So if you're able to kind of talk yourself through that and still go on, like you said you're able to do, you might think it, you might have a little bit of a fear about it, you might consider it, and then you're able to go on.
I think if you are not able to still go on with your normal functioning, then that's when it's really important to speak about it. And it can feel really, really scary to speak.
Now, I'm really glad that you talked about postpartum mood disorders because people think about postpartum depression. There's postpartum rage, there's postpartum OCD, postpartum psychosis, and there's really a range of a lot of perinatal mood and anxiety disorders.
And I think that when they disrupt your functioning, so you're not able to go along and still walk up the stairs, that's when you really have to ask for help, whether it's from a friend, your practitioner, some other professional, a partner, someone in your life. You don't have to even know how to ask for help.
You can just say something isn't right. Rebecca, I cannot thank you enough for coming on and talking to me today.
Is there anything else that you feel really strongly that you want to make sure is said that we didn't touch on today? Because I do want to make sure that if there's anything that we missed that it hits the ears of our listeners. Someone said to me when I was suffering, this too shall pass.
And so I want to say that to anyone who may be suffering today. I know it may sound like, oh yeah, it's easy to say.
I've been there. I've lived it.
And I will tell you that moments of suffering can feel profound, but they are temporary. They don't have to define the rest of your life.
This will pass. And it can be very, very scary to ask for help, but you deserve to feel better.
You deserve to ask for help and you can get help. We have great ways to treat postpartum depression and other mood disorders now, and we can help.
Thank you so much. I've so enjoyed talking to you.
I am such a fan of your work and appreciate the fact that you have taken your own experience, understood the gravity of what you went through, and then decided to impact just a population of women who not only need help, but deserve it. So thank you so much.
Back at you. Thank you so much again to my guest, Rebecca Fox Star, for joining me.
And that's a wrap on my postpartum special. I'm officially going on maternity leave for a little bit.
So we recorded a few incredible episodes just before I had the baby. I can't wait for you guys to see who I had, of course, no business talking to.
And make sure you tune in next Thursday to a brand new episode. You won't want to miss it.
Listen and subscribe to Not Gonna Lie wherever you get your podcasts.

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