Chris Appleton EXCLUSIVE: “I Thought My Kids Would Be Better Off Without Me” Opening up About The Darkest Night of His Life and What FINALLY Gave Him The Courage to Live Authentically

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.

Speaker 1 Everybody knows Shaq, but off camera, he's just a regular guy.

Speaker 3 People never believe me when I say I'm just like them. I take out the trash, do dishes, and I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea or OSA.

Speaker 3 And a lot of adults with obesity also struggle with moderate to severe OSA. You know those scary breathing interruptions during sleep? The loud snoring, choking, and daytime fatigue?

Speaker 3 I knew I had to talk to my doctor. Don't sleep on the symptoms.
Learn more at don'tsleeponosa.com.

Speaker 1 This information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

Speaker 2 Amazon has everything for everyone on your list. Like my sister, who comes over every year to help with my holiday photo gallery, mainly by pointing out how bad my outfits look over the years.

Speaker 2 That's why I'm shopping Black Friday deals now, and you should too. A little fashion upgrade, some fresh decor in the background, maybe even new electronics to capture it all.

Speaker 2 Suddenly your family photos will look less like outtakes and more like memories worth framing. So shop Amazon's Black Friday deals now.
Amazon, everything for everyone on your list.

Speaker 2 This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

Speaker 2 And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

Speaker 2 When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one-of-a-kind experiences, experiences like music festivals and sporting events.

Speaker 2 And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 2 Trust me, discover more at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA.
Member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply.

Speaker 1 I felt like it would be better for them to have a dad that was dead than a dad that was gay.

Speaker 1 It's not something I've ever spoken about.

Speaker 2 Chris Appleton is a hairstylist to the stars, including Jennifer Lopez, Kim Kardashian, Dua Lipa.

Speaker 2 When did you realize that you couldn't stop hiding who you really were?

Speaker 1 I came out at 26 and a lot of people said to me, well, you must have already known, like, and just hit hit it and I wasn't aware that I did know. Being a gay child I learned to hide myself.

Speaker 1 When I did hair there was this whole thing about sexuality and it's like oh you're gay. Being gay must be bad because people are you know they weren't saying it in a nice way like you're gay.

Speaker 1 They were like you're gay.

Speaker 2 It was you who filed for a divorce. Everything you've been through.
I can imagine that's not easy.

Speaker 1 Just because it's not forever doesn't mean it didn't mean something. People say things about you.
There's things in the tabloid. I was going through a lot of private pain.

Speaker 1 What really helped me was not being okay

Speaker 1 you write about the night that you tried to end your life i closed my eyes and this is it i won't hurt anyone anymore we reached out to the kids they sent us a note for you oh god i don't know what to say

Speaker 1 The number one health and wellness podcast.

Speaker 2 Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.
The one, the only Jay Shetty.

Speaker 2 Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Thank you so much for tuning in to the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed.

Speaker 2 Every guest I sit down with has been on an incredible healing journey, whether it's their mind, their emotions, or even their soul.

Speaker 2 And today's guest is someone who's been on an unexpected internal journey because their life is so public and external.

Speaker 2 Today's guest is Chris Appleton, a renowned celebrity hairstylist best known for creating iconic looks for the likes of Kim Kardashian, Jennifer Lopez, Ariana Grande and so many more.

Speaker 2 Chris is the global creative director for ColorWow Hair and a social media sensation with over 7 million followers. His work is regularly featured in Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, L and In Style.

Speaker 2 In his debut book, Your Roots Don't Define You, Chris opens up about identity, transformation and self-worth. So I want you to support Chris.
Go and pre-order it right now.

Speaker 2 Please welcome to On Purpose, Chris Appleton. Chris.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 It's great to have you here. Great to finally be here.
I mean, we have bumped into each other in a million places. Absolutely.
Whether it's different.

Speaker 1 Different cities or different.

Speaker 2 Cities, gyms in Miami, Paris, LA. And I've always been an admirer of you and your work from the outside.

Speaker 2 You work with incredible people. They have so much love and respect for you.

Speaker 2 But I have to be honest and say that when I read the book, I have a different level of respect for you that came from this book because I can see you really want to help help people.

Speaker 2 And I can see that you want to use your journey as a way of supporting other people's journeys.

Speaker 2 And I find that fascinating because you don't really know that when you follow someone on Instagram or see them. So I'm glad that we get to pull back the curtain on your life and understand you more.

Speaker 1 No, absolutely. And I think there's so much about that that we make an assumption of people by social media or just what we see because it's surface level.
And there's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 1 But I think it's so nice to be able to get to know more and just know some of the magic of how things are done and how everyone else else can have a part of that.

Speaker 1 And that's what I hope with the book, that people feel like they can have a part of that and, you know, help make their comeback.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's so nice to sit with another man from England and think about the crazy journey.
We just realized we both moved to the States nine years ago.

Speaker 1 I have no regrets. What about you? No, me too.

Speaker 2 I love it here. It's been amazing to me.
It's been so good to me. I feel like it's been good to you as well.
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 And I'm a Londoner at heart always through and through, but there's a beauty to living here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, there's so many nice things when you go home. Like I just went back and the chocolate.
I just always love the chocolate. It's a little sweeter.

Speaker 1 We have a little bit more of a sweet tooth. A bit milky in England.
Exactly. Yeah, and just some of the purchasings.
I just like dairy milk, the whole milk, dairy milk. Yeah, but I'm always fat.

Speaker 1 I'm like sitting in the stores, like just looking at all of the.

Speaker 1 I remember, remember pickled onion crisp? And I'm like, what's that? And I'm like, oh my God, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. All the things.

Speaker 1 But no, it's fun to go back, but LA is definitely home now. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 Well, Chris, I wanted to ask you something that I often ask a lot of guests because I think I'm always fascinated by how who we were places imprints on us into who we become.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to ask you, do you have a childhood experience that you remember that you think has defined who you are today?

Speaker 2 An experience or a memory that you have that you feel had some coding into who you've become today?

Speaker 1 You know, it's funny you say that because I have a very distinct memory, but for a long time it was a really sad one.

Speaker 1 The more I've understood that memory, the more I realized it was kind of where I was at in my life.

Speaker 1 And it's sad because I guess it was a memory at the age of, it was maybe sort of eight or nine years old. And I remember looking outside the window.
I come from a big family in the UK.

Speaker 1 I'm one of five. We were, you know, really working class, if not poor.
You know, we didn't have many luxuries. And life was real.
It was very, you know, different to LA and sunshine. It was.

Speaker 1 quite rainy and grey. And I remember sort of looking out the window and I felt like I didn't really belong.
I knew I felt different, I knew there was something different.

Speaker 1 Like, my brothers enjoyed doing football and sports, and my sisters liked doing girls' things. Like, I don't know, they were playing with Barbies or braiding hair.

Speaker 1 And I kind of felt somewhere in the middle, I didn't really feel like I fit in. I was a middle child, also.

Speaker 1 And I remember just looking out, and I felt quite alone.

Speaker 1 And I think that was the beginning of me kind of abandoning myself in a way to fit in, to fit in with what I think people around me thought I should be be or who I was told to be so that memory was in one way it's very motivational now now I know what it meant because I can kind of go back to that moment and I've learned that during therapy and sort of been able to like connect with that inner child which for so long I ignored but I think for me it was a real special moment that I go back to because you can kind of change

Speaker 1 that. You can change what you came from.
And that's a lot about what the book's about. It's about how your roots don't define you.

Speaker 1 And it really is about, you know, we all grow up being told to be something or be someone or we have influences around us which kind of lead us into a certain part of our lives and sometimes we stop and look in the mirror and don't recognize how we got there

Speaker 1 let alone how we look you know sometimes I've worked with clients and I'll say you've got short dark hair and and bangs why why is that and it's like this is what I've always had I don't know I'm like we ever thought about going lighter and longer or no not really why not well just because that's not what you know they kind of then stop and go well why have i never thought of that because no one ever given the freedom to and a lot about what my job was about is really kind of opening people up it's it's really starts on the outside as a visual but then once you start going internal with things and breaking down these kind of boundaries it's really quite magical what can happen and that in a nutshell is kind of what i've always done gone that little bit deeper and i guess going back to that childhood memory really helps me kind of remember that that your roots really don't define you and you do have a chance to start again it's never too late late yeah it's such a interesting connection that you made there because most people wouldn't see that you wouldn't you wouldn't think that something aesthetic like that about yourself is so deep-rooted but it is and all these limitations and blocks and all this conditioning that we all have whether it's about who you can become how much money you can make who you're meant to be in the world and for you you fell in love with the hair quite early right yeah like that was something you discovered really what was the discovery of it i think it was honestly the first time i felt good at something i was pretty young young.

Speaker 1 I was maybe like nine, ten years old at a similar age, where I was dyslexic. So no one really knew what that was then.
So you were kind of just told you were stupid.

Speaker 1 I remember I used to sit in the classes and I was like, please someone answer the question because I did not know what he was going on about.

Speaker 1 When I sort of started to paint, I noticed I got like a reaction.

Speaker 1 And then when I started to use my hands and do hair, which was my mom at the time, I realized you had this ability to sort of change the way people felt. I really liked that.

Speaker 1 I loved that you could transform people. I was really mesmerized by that, but but I noticed people reacted different and I felt like that was almost like a superpower.

Speaker 1 So I just thought, I'm going to be the best at it. If this is what I'm good at, I'll be the best at it and I'll prove everyone wrong that I'm not stupid.
And again, just being conditioned to,

Speaker 1 I mean, I was pretty bullied at school because of that. And then when I did hair, there was this whole thing about sexuality.
And it's like, oh, you're gay.

Speaker 1 Cause no one back then did hair, especially no one had a job at 13.

Speaker 1 And doing hair was, you know, stereotypically where i grew up people you know said okay well you're gay and that was before i really even understood sexuality i didn't even really consider it i was just a young guy having a great time you know when you're a kid you just you're free you know it's great it's such a good feeling and then the harsh reality of life slaps you around the face one day and i remember sort of things well bad that's bad like being gay must be bad because people are they weren't saying it in a nice way like you're gay they were like you're gay you know people would like spit on you and i mean it was bad bad i got bullied quite aggressively and i think that really led me to push and i guess push away from myself that's i think when the curtain started to come down and i i really abandoned myself because i started to become a version of myself that i thought other people wanted to see so talk a little bit more masculine stand more masculine you know you start to become very aware of your mannerisms doing hair was feminine so i kind of kept it to myself and i just kept my head down.

Speaker 1 I didn't want to tell people about it. And it's really sad because I think being a gay child,

Speaker 1 I learned to hide myself. I learned to hide the parts of myself that were authentic and I adapted myself into being something that I thought other people wanted me to be.

Speaker 1 And as an adult, what you have to do is then unpick those parts and find out what were the parts that are actually me and the parts that I created for other people.

Speaker 1 And as much as anything, I'll go back to the the book. Like there is stories about my life and as reflection, but it's really about helping people get to get back to theirs and unpick it as well.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it takes a bit of that work. Yeah.
And that work can be brutal. It's not the easiest work I've ever done, but I would say the most rewarding for sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I like, I like the way you drew that, that when you reflect on your past,

Speaker 2 you've got to pick apart the parts that you made for yourself and the parts that you made for yourself. And that's such a great.

Speaker 1 Everyone has that. You know, if you grow up into a family of religion or if you grow into a family of different beliefs and cultures, you tend to take them on.

Speaker 1 Even relationships, you know, we look at relationships of like, that's how mom and dad interact. And you kind of carry that throughout your life.

Speaker 1 And it's not until you get into relationships as an adult and you're like, oh, you can do it differently, you know, and they're all the lessons we learn as adults.

Speaker 1 But not everyone is like, I guess, aware of that. Not everyone is aware is you can change the story.

Speaker 1 And there's a real freedom to do in that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I want to go down two paths based on what you said, but the first path before we go down the other, because the other will lead to more

Speaker 2 different different opportunities to talk about but the first path is you said you wanted to become the best as soon as you discovered yeah that you could do hair you're like I'm gonna become really good at this yeah what did it take to become the best at what you do because you are you work with the best you're considered the best by the people that you serve what did that take because I think often when we look at athletes or you look at business, there's people who've told those stories.

Speaker 2 But when you take something as artistic as air,

Speaker 2 we don't necessarily think about it in the same way.

Speaker 1 Totally.

Speaker 2 At least publicly, even though it's such an important part of daily life that everyone has.

Speaker 2 And so I want you to walk me through, like, what was that process like? Like, what did that take? What did that look like?

Speaker 1 I think I just was

Speaker 1 so determined not to be stupid, not to be deemed as bad or different that I really wanted to be good at something.

Speaker 1 And like I say, it's kind of a double-edged sword because it motivated me to want to do better. And my focus really was to just

Speaker 1 get on it as fast as I could. And I just put everything I had into hair.
Like I got a job at the age of 13 and I just had a salon. You had a salon.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I remember my first day, I remember it very clearly.

Speaker 1 I remember standing against a wall and I saw people walking one way and I saw them then walk out another way once they had the hair done. And I swear they were standing a little taller.
And

Speaker 1 their shoulders went back. And I was like, this is good.
I love this. And I was like, I want to do it.
I remember literally thinking, this is what I'm going to do. And

Speaker 1 I just like every aspect of hair. And if I didn't know how to do it, I'd find out.

Speaker 1 You know, I mean, eventually, as my career progressed and I became top sort of hairstylist, I then was like, well, what's outside of this?

Speaker 1 So I'd look outside and say, oh, there's this thing called editorial hair. And there's fashion shows.

Speaker 1 And there's, and every, every kind of block was like a beginning again, because no one really kind of like, if you're a salon hairdresser, you're just a salon hairdresser.

Speaker 1 You can't be a fashion hairdresser. You know, they kind of, there's a lot of

Speaker 1 competition. Yeah, totally.
It's like, you know, people love to put you in a box. All my life, people people love to put me in a box.
Still to today, I'm always trying to fight being put out of a box.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you can relate to that.

Speaker 2 I can so relate.

Speaker 1 I think a lot of people just love to put you where they know you can stay. And I just push myself to know every aspect.

Speaker 1 And if I didn't know what it was, I remember, for example, I eventually got an editorial job and they wanted a look that I just didn't know how to do. And I just got in a car.

Speaker 1 I took myself to this local salon and she did this. It was like this, this like weaving technique of, it's called a basket weave.

Speaker 1 And like I would sit there and watch her and just pay this woman to sit and watch her and I'd sit with with her doll's head up all night I don't know I just I think I just went above and beyond I loved what I did I still love what I do and I just I think that combined with again a bit of a blessing and a curse like a little bit of an OCD mentality where I wanted it to be good and I could see things I don't just let things go I can see every detail and every little hair and I think that can combine and just the passion to want to be good at something just pushed me.

Speaker 1 And it's funny now because it's only now, I'm 42 and I look back at videos. I recently just put some things on social media because someone came from the UK with a big box of DVDs.

Speaker 1 And even I forgot what I did to get to where I've got.

Speaker 1 Every competition I did and I didn't win and failed and every, you know, educational thing that I failed because of my dyslexia, I just kept bouncing back.

Speaker 1 And the nose, I had people laughing in my face. You know, I remember eventually I got an agent and I was so excited about the next steps.
And they'd laugh at me.

Speaker 1 They were like, you know, you just need to stay where you are and keep it real. And they'd send me on a photo shoot for some flip-flop commercial.
I just, I didn't care. I was just determined.

Speaker 1 And I think you have to have that resilience along the way. I think you really have to have that internal resilience to stay focused.
And

Speaker 1 it's not, it was never one thing. It was just lots of little leapfrog moments.
Everyone thinks it's this big moment. It really isn't.
It's just a build.

Speaker 1 But I would say one of my biggest secrets to success in that area was just to be consistent. I stayed consistent.
And when I got knocked down, I got back up on a carried on.

Speaker 2 And I tried to land by every mistake as i went along you know if i if i failed i was like why did i fail and that person went why did that person get it and i didn't i would look and i'll analyze the situation and i'd come back yeah and i think that's a lot of what it takes yeah absolutely it's good advice it's also good to hear that there's no industry in which you just one day get a call from you know totally the biggest star in the world it's like everyone's earned their stripes and done the work and it's good to hear about it whether it's podcasting whether it's hair whether it's music and athletes that we've had it's it's it's always that.

Speaker 2 You always hear that same story. But going back to England and talking about the derogatory use of the term gay, I mean, I went to a boys' school.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And I think about all the guys at my school that got so bullied

Speaker 2 because we went to a boys' school as well.

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And now when I look at how many guys in my school were gay, but never came out until years later, some of them at university, some of them much later than that.

Speaker 2 And I'm just like, wow, they never even had the opportunity because they thought immediately that if they were to say that at our school, they were going to get bullied for it.

Speaker 2 And so I get how real that was at that time, especially. And of course, there are still parts of the world where that's still the case.

Speaker 2 But how early were you sure about that being part of your identity? And were you consciously masking it? Or was it still a discovery of your identity?

Speaker 2 Or was it like, oh, I know that's true and I'm going to hide it now, as you said, you had to abandon yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or was it like, I don't really know what that is and I'm, I'm discovering and figuring it out. How was it for you?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get asked this a lot. It took me a while to understand because in the beginning, I didn't know myself.

Speaker 1 I came out at 26 and a lot of people said to me, well, you must have already known and just hit it. And I wasn't aware that I did know.

Speaker 1 And I'll tell you now, Jay, like the brain is such a powerful tool and shame is such a powerful tool.

Speaker 1 And when I think back to that eight-year-old kid that just felt different and i had to hide it like i feel so sad for that little guy because i really did abandon myself and i think i just i shut it out i didn't even allow myself to think about it it was before sexuality was i was even thinking about having sex like so anything like that i just knew it was bad and i just pushed it away so i went through my life like i said trying to just be normal and as far as i was aware it was fine and it's not until you really you have these moments where you stop at life life makes you stop sometimes.

Speaker 1 If you don't choose to stop and look in the mirror, sometimes life makes you stop. It's an, you know, some you're losing a family member.

Speaker 1 It can be anything, but sometimes you have to sit with yourself. And

Speaker 1 I don't know that I ever allowed myself to know.

Speaker 1 I never had the space to express that.

Speaker 1 And that's why I'm hoping with like the book that I can help someone that feels not seen and someone that is going through a hard time or someone that is successful but miserable when they get home.

Speaker 1 Because I never got that opportunity. And finding that makes such a difference.

Speaker 1 It makes a difference in the job you do, the relationships you have, the friendships you have, and just generally who you are as a person.

Speaker 2 I think that's what people don't realize. I love that point you just made that

Speaker 2 it actually impacts all other parts of your self-expression. It's crazy.
Because it is your identity. It's crazy.
It's who you are.

Speaker 2 And so if you're hiding that part, you're hiding all these other skills and talents and abilities. I know because one of my closest friends came out when he was 30.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And he just, and he grew up in a Muslim background. And so that was extremely hard for him

Speaker 2 because of the religious pressure. And it was such a journey for him.
And he thinks about who he became after that age.

Speaker 2 And it's almost like everything went in his favor after that. Yeah.
Whereas up until that point, it always felt like everything was working against him.

Speaker 2 But he, like you, also felt that he had to hide and, you know, not be honest with himself.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I think my whole life changed when I authentically, and it took a few years to get to that point.
It took therapy. It took understanding.
It took being with myself.

Speaker 1 But part of that was moving to LA. And I think the great thing about moving to LA was I didn't feel any shame because I'm also a dad, and I hold that very close to my heart.

Speaker 1 My biggest focus in life is being a great dad to two kids, and any parent out there can connect to that. I will always put them before myself.

Speaker 1 The difficulty with shame is it's very different, difficult to heal when I wasn't just feeling my shame. I was feeling shame for them.
I was feeling shame.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I felt a lot of shame. And moving to America, the part of it that became easier is because an introduction could be like, hey, I'm Chris.

Speaker 1 And it's like, I'm gay, you know, and no one blinks an eyelid. But where I grew up in the town where people knew me, hey, I'm Chris.
And it's like, I didn't feel confident to say I was gay.

Speaker 1 And if I did, they'd be like, oh, he used to be. So he's got family.
He's got kids. Oh, my God.
You know, and there was always this secret, this conversation. It was just this, it felt dark still.

Speaker 1 It still felt like people wanted to keep putting me back in the box.

Speaker 1 So, you know, it was kind of part of moving to America was the first time that I could experience what it was really like to come out without all of the outside noise because I'd already made a life for myself.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And, you know, I get it.
When there's a secret, people want to talk. People love to, you know, when there's a secret, people want to know the answer to it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Talk to me about that time in your life because when you started dating the mother of your children.
Yeah. And that experience, you were married for, what, like, 10 years? Nine years.

Speaker 2 Nine years, yeah. So it was a, it's a, it's a long period of time.

Speaker 1 We were never married, but we were, yeah, nine years.

Speaker 2 Committed, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it was amazing. I genuinely believe I was meant to meet Kate.
We were together for nine years, and it was magical nine years. It was great.

Speaker 1 I had two kids, and I honestly thought I had it all figured out.

Speaker 1 I remember out of the weekend, I'd be doing, I'd be doing the man's day, I'd be painting the fence, I'd be like fixing things, you know, I was just doing all the things that I thought I was supposed to do as a man.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 when I did realize I was gay, I mean, God, it came crashing down.

Speaker 2 Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors.

Speaker 2 Comfort isn't just about how something feels. It's about what it's made of and what it stands for.
The avocado green mattress is built on that belief.

Speaker 2 Each mattress features thousands of individually cased steel coils that move with your body, giving you world-class back support that helps you rest, recover, and rise feeling renewed.

Speaker 2 You'll feel just as good getting into it as you do getting out of it. But real comfort also lasts.

Speaker 2 That's why avocado mattresses are handcrafted from certified organic materials for durability and long-term support, designed to stay strong and comfortable for years, not just a season.

Speaker 2 And there's peace of mind in knowing your mattress is made to some of the highest standards for safety, sustainability and social impact. Better for you and better for the planet.

Speaker 2 If you want to experience that comfort for yourself, visit an avocado retail store or one of their premier partners and try it in person.

Speaker 2 Head to avocadogreenmattress.com today and check out their mattress embedding sale.

Speaker 1 Avocado, dream of better.

Speaker 2 Amazon has everything for everyone on your list. Like my wife Radhi, who can somehow host 20 people, cook five dishes at once and still have the energy to rally us all around the table.

Speaker 2 I'm getting her some new board games because nothing says holiday chaos like my family family swearing they're not competitive while Radhi quietly wins every single round.

Speaker 2 She even tends to be surprised which makes it worse. That's what I love about shopping with Amazon.
It's not just the gifts, it's the moments they spark.

Speaker 2 The right board game turns into a story we retell for years. A sweater sneaks into every family photo.
Decor becomes the backdrop for all the memories.

Speaker 2 And with Black Friday deals happening right now, I can stock up on everything. Fashion, fitness, toys, electronics, decor without leaving the house.

Speaker 2 Because whether you shop early like me or late like most of my family, Amazon makes it easy to find something meaningful. So shop Amazon's Black Friday deals now.

Speaker 2 Amazon, everything for everyone on your list.

Speaker 2 Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University.

Speaker 2 If you're listening right now and feeling that pull to grow in your career or make a bigger impact, Walden is designed exactly for that.

Speaker 2 For over 50 years, they've helped working adults get the W, with the knowledge, confidence, and real skills to create meaningful change. What makes Walden stand out is how flexible it is.

Speaker 2 With Walden's tempo learning, you're in control. No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules, just a pace that actually fits your life.
And everything you learn is practical.

Speaker 2 You're working through real-world scenarios that prepare you to make a positive difference in your community and beyond.

Speaker 2 You're also guided by faculty who've lived the work themselves, scholars and practitioners with real experience.

Speaker 2 This is the kind of opportunity that reminds you it's never too late to go after what you want. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it.
Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step.

Speaker 2 Walden University. Set a course for change.
Certified to operate by Chev.

Speaker 2 And back to our episode. What do you think it was about that moment that allowed you to be conscious that you were?

Speaker 2 Like you said, for so long, you were hiding it, you were suppressing it, you were putting it aside, you're doing all the quote-unquote things you're meant to do as a man.

Speaker 2 What was it that brought that up for you when you felt like, like you just said, you felt like you'd figured it all out? Your two beautiful kids you loved, you know, a partner that you loved.

Speaker 1 Because from the age of eight to the age of 27,

Speaker 1 I'd held my breath and I could finally excel. I couldn't hold my breath anymore.

Speaker 1 I couldn't do it. I tried.
I kept trying to, like, and I couldn't. And once I put my tiptoes into breathing and how good that felt, I couldn't stop it.

Speaker 1 But then came the shame of like, well, I'm going to hurt all these people I've created this life with. So I kept pulling back until I just had to let go.

Speaker 2 How long did you carry that shame of, I know.

Speaker 2 But I don't want to tell them because it will hurt them and break what they've built.

Speaker 1 Once I knew, I had an experience, which I talk a bit about in the book. And it wasn't anything heavy, but I was, I said, when I was a kid, I was sat down.
I grew up in Northern England.

Speaker 1 There wasn't, well, middle to north, and it was kind of the being gay wasn't really a thing. There was a gay pub in town, but it was on the outskirts.
And the men that went were quite flamboyant.

Speaker 1 It wasn't really

Speaker 1 spoken about.

Speaker 1 Princess Diana was on the news shaking a man with AIDS without gloves. And that was headline news because, you know, they're like, could she get AIDS from shaking this man's hand?

Speaker 1 People didn't know enough about it. And they knew about AIDS.
And it was kind of told to me that gay men get AIDS. So I was also fearful of that.

Speaker 1 Someone that was prone to OCD, like I, I just felt very conscious of that. So I had an experience that I kind of met someone, we became friends, and it never really went beyond friendship.

Speaker 1 But he told me one day that he was HIV positive. I remember he didn't even live near me.
We had a phone call conversation daily, but I became friends with him.

Speaker 1 And it was the first time that I was kind of like, I like this guy. Like, I really like him.
And I kind of was trying to understand it. So it was a slow process.
And then he told me he had HIV.

Speaker 1 And I was like, well, I can't. I'm good.
I'm absolutely good. So I literally just cut it off.
And even though I hadn't done anything, I felt like, oh my God, could I get HIV? Is this a thing?

Speaker 1 I don't know. It was really, really scary.
And then I guess over the process of the next year, I think, once, like I say, you kind of put your foot in the water, it was just, it was hard to go back.

Speaker 1 And then once I actually did meet someone,

Speaker 1 yeah, that was it.

Speaker 2 There was, there was no going back that period of your life i can imagine is when you look back at it now

Speaker 2 it's probably one of the most difficult times because it's almost like no

Speaker 1 it got way harder yeah

Speaker 2 which we'll get to but but that moment of i can finally be honest with myself but i don't know how to be honest with the people that i love totally that's like a

Speaker 2 There's one thing of like, oh, wow, I can finally be honest with myself. That's huge.
Yeah. But then it's always harder when you're trying to express it to other people.
I imagine 100%.

Speaker 2 What was it like telling your partner at the time?

Speaker 1 I told initially my partner, and

Speaker 1 that was a process. And I also had to respect that she needed to go through her own grief.

Speaker 2 Were you aware of that at the time when you told her?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
Wow, that's mature.

Speaker 1 Because I loved her. I really loved her.

Speaker 1 And I didn't want to be yay. I didn't want to be different.

Speaker 1 I went back to being the kid at school. But

Speaker 1 once I told her, I kind of just went on automatic. I told my family, and everyone needed to process it the way they needed to process it.
And I just had to be respectful of that.

Speaker 1 You have to let people go through their own grief. I can't control their emotions, nor do I want to.
I think it's really important for people to feel and go through the process.

Speaker 1 But the hardest part was telling my kids. And I think mentally for me, I couldn't really ever get my head around that.
I've never actually spoke about this.

Speaker 1 I didn't think I ever would but i do feel ready i i feel ready to talk to people because i feel like hopefully it will help someone else that's going through a difficult time but my job as a dad i felt was to protect my kids um going through what i went through as a kid being bullied was horrible my childhood was a lot of memories are not great ones

Speaker 1 so the idea of bringing that to my kids was really painful to feel that they would get bullied because their dad was gay. I know the things that kids say and I know how mean they can be.

Speaker 1 And I just didn't want them to ever have that shame that was put on me, onto them. And in a way, I felt like I felt like a disease.
I felt like it was like a cancer. I wanted to clear it out of me.

Speaker 1 I was like, if I could just get rid of that, then I could just be a normal dad for them because that's what they need. You know, I just want, I just, I felt so selfish putting myself first.

Speaker 1 So eventually people started to talk, as they do. It was a small town, and me and Kate decided to tell the kids.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I couldn't even say the words. And I think maybe a lot of people can relate to this.
Initially, saying the words, I'm gay,

Speaker 1 is a challenge. Because once those words are out, it's done.
I actually didn't say it. The mother of Kate's mum actually said it.

Speaker 1 And then I just saw these two beautiful kids who were like six and eight. And they were just...
They were upset because they knew I was upset and they were confused.

Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, I just felt like I'd, I felt like I'd just messed their life up. And I felt like I'd failed as a dad because my job was to protect them.

Speaker 1 And if anyone ever hurt them, I would protect them. But I was the one hurting them.
And I couldn't understand that.

Speaker 1 I also just couldn't hide. I was gay anymore.
I was so exhausted from it.

Speaker 1 So after telling them,

Speaker 1 just the confusion killed me.

Speaker 1 And my son said to me, you know, does that mean you're going to, you know, have your arm like this?

Speaker 1 Like, because he was so young and innocent and kids at school would do, or there was already things said, you know, and I was like, no, you know, I'm just me. I'm the same.
I'm not going to change.

Speaker 1 But are you going to change? Are you going to be different?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I kind of just shut down. And I left.
And I left not because I was three, but I left because I felt so much shame. And I got in the car.
I drove for a couple of hours.

Speaker 1 I drove for quite a long time. It felt like five minutes.
I just felt like I needed to get away from him. I just, I felt like I was contagious.

Speaker 1 And I,

Speaker 1 sorry, I've not really spoken about this before.

Speaker 2 You need to be sorry.

Speaker 2 Take your time.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so

Speaker 1 I felt like it would be better for them to have a dad that was dead

Speaker 1 than a dad that was gay.

Speaker 1 And so I

Speaker 1 brought some painkillers. I brought...
a bottle of alcohol and I checked myself into a hotel.

Speaker 1 And the whole time I had a picture of the kids, it was like this computer case I had, and they're smiling on it. They wrote a message on it.

Speaker 1 It was silly, it was just a little computer case, but I was just holding it the whole time.

Speaker 1 I'd slept with it a lot throughout that period. I just wanted to protect them, you know.
And I took the tablets and drank the alcohol. I ran Kate and I apologized for the pain that I'd caused.

Speaker 1 And I closed my eyes

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 I just just thought, this is it.

Speaker 1 This is it. I won't hurt anyone anymore.
You know, I won't bring any more pain. And maybe I'll stop hurting too.

Speaker 1 The rest was a blur. I remember sirens and stuff.
And I just then remember being in hospital and I could hear voices. And

Speaker 1 I remember thinking,

Speaker 1 is this it?

Speaker 1 You know, where am I? And something changed then.

Speaker 1 And it was really powerful because I realized I couldn't hate myself anymore than I had. And I couldn't try and stop being gay anymore.
I'd done everything with my power.

Speaker 1 I spent my whole life creating a different world that I thought everyone wanted me to be and take all the boxes. But I knew I had to reveal the truth.

Speaker 1 And so in that moment, It was really quiet. It wasn't dramatic.
But I just remember thinking, well,

Speaker 1 what about if I just surrender?

Speaker 1 What about

Speaker 1 if I'm just gay and I just be that? And I don't really know where to begin with it. And I don't know where it's going to lead me.
But it has to be better than what I've been doing.

Speaker 1 And in that moment, something changed. I decided to live.
And I think that's the moment where I went back to that eight-year-old boy standing at the window and allowed himself to be seen.

Speaker 1 That was the beginning of it all, really.

Speaker 1 So although it was

Speaker 1 one of the darkest nights of my life, I think it was a turning point.

Speaker 1 And like I say, it's not something I take lightly. I think it's not something I've ever spoken about.
But I hope other people in watching this can maybe feel heard or seen and find the help.

Speaker 1 they need or even maybe it's a parent that is struggling understanding their child to understand how dark it can be when you're left in silence and when you don't get to express who you truly are or even if it's the kid that did the bullying at school and see how painful it can really be for someone yeah chris thank you for sharing that because it's i just didn't feel like i could write a book talking about my story i think there's this perception of me that people see on social media and it looks like my life together it looks like i I look pretty polished.

Speaker 1 I think people tell me that, you know, I mean, I work with amazing women, you know, and life looks glamorous. And from the outside, it probably looks like I've got it all together.

Speaker 1 But there's a very different side. And that's what I want to talk to people about.
And that's what I want to help people with.

Speaker 1 And it's not just about my journey, it's about helping people realize theirs.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I really appreciate you sharing it because we're seeing male suicide rise. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We know that carrying around emotions like shame and guilt for long periods of time is not healthy for someone, even if they don't, you know, try to commit suicide. And

Speaker 2 I think having people like yourself who've been there who are open enough to share how you get there and it's needed right now. It's needed right now.
I help a lot of men right now. Yeah.

Speaker 2 A lot of people, but definitely a lot of men right now who need it as well.

Speaker 1 And I think also just like stereotypes and boxes that we love to put people in. It's like you don't have to fit a particular mold.

Speaker 1 I think you are who you are and you should have time and space to develop that and what it is. And I'm someone that spent my life trying to avoid that.

Speaker 1 And then I had to do the really painful part of unpicking it and finding out what I'd created for everyone else and what was truly me.

Speaker 1 And when I did that, there was a piece to it.

Speaker 2 Were you relieved when you woke up in the hospital?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I don't think I ever wanted to die. I wanted to kill.

Speaker 1 the thing that I felt that was destructing my life and the thing that made me feel different as a kid, the thing that made me not blend in with all the other boys and girls.

Speaker 1 Like I wasn't like all the regular guys and I wanted to not be different.

Speaker 1 Now, I love being different. You know, as an adult, now I've realized the beauty in being different is such a special thing to be able to have that talent to be different to let it grow.

Speaker 1 And when it's not suppressed, my god, like your whole world can change. My whole world really did change, and it can be such a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1 And I'm not talking about success, I'm talking about inner happiness. You know, there's a lot of successful people out there, and they're not happy.

Speaker 1 You know, a lot of people, some unsuccessful people, and they're not happy. I think true happiness on the inside is really,

Speaker 1 I don't know, it's a really powerful tool.

Speaker 2 How did did your family react to obviously coming to the hospital with the kids?

Speaker 2 Like now it was almost like there was in that time the first shock that you're gay and then there's this shock of nearly losing you or there being a critical situation.

Speaker 2 How did you, how did Katie, the kids and family reactions?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't think there was really ever an understanding. I don't think anyone really knew.
I think everyone was just trying to get through it because everyone was trying to process it themselves.

Speaker 1 I think everyone had questions and everyone's like, well, did he always know? And like, was that my fault? And did I say something when he was a kid?

Speaker 1 And when I told him about like gay men and sexuality. And I think a lot of people were questioning, I don't know, did they know? Did they see something?

Speaker 1 And I think everyone was just trying to process something. It didn't really matter to me in terms of like, that was the time I came back to myself.

Speaker 1 So there was, there was a change in my brain where I really just was like, I'm going to allow myself to be and I'm going to be respectful of everyone else and I'm going to be supportive because it's just who I am.

Speaker 1 But I'm going to be, you know, I'm going to be. I'm I'm going to allow Chris to be and I'm a gay man and that's it.

Speaker 2 And I imagine at that time,

Speaker 2 the shame that had been hanging over, obviously the kids went back to school, they were now hearing the same stuff. It's almost like you said, everyone wants the answer to the secret.

Speaker 2 Now the secret's out.

Speaker 1 Totally. People love a secret.
Yeah. People love gossip.
You know, I get it. Like we all do it.
Everyone loves it. Oh, what's you here?

Speaker 1 You know, but I think once the secret's out, people, oh, well, you know, it's just not as exciting. It's like, all right, well, and so you felt that kind of you were able to move on from it.

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 and it's listen it wasn't an overnight sense it wasn't it was just a mental change for me i still had to go through the process um what was that process like because it's like like you said you bottled it up for that many years it comes out in this extremely dark way for you personally

Speaker 2 shame guilt thankfully you're still alive yeah

Speaker 2 but what did that process actually look like because like you just said and i don't want anyone to hear this and go yeah oh wow one night just changed you know like i don't want them to have that perspective either because

Speaker 2 that isn't true from the book and i'm excited for people to read

Speaker 2 i'm

Speaker 2 encouraging people to read the book yeah because i think when they engage with it yeah and your sharing of it they'll get the context that you won't be able to realize like this wasn't an overnight change it wasn't a one night switch 100 but walk me through the process you had to go through over the next few months and years to rebuild because you said you almost came home to yourself totally But then you had to build this new house.

Speaker 1 Like anything, starting anything new, it's the unknown. And so I think I took every day as it came, every hour as it came.
I've always been a big believer in therapy.

Speaker 1 I think it's so helpful to be able to.

Speaker 1 And I think it's, I also think it's something that if someone is struggling, that if you can and you have the resources to, you should use because I think it's a really healthy way of being able to be and really be in the moment and really feel things.

Speaker 1 And I think working with therapists to try and understand even making sure my kids were okay with them seeing a therapist and kate did you know i think everyone was on their own journey but personally for me it was just taking every day as it came and there were good days and there were bad days and there were days i still felt really shameful and there were days i didn't feel so shameful but i think as with anything and when you're grieving something and i really was grieving a loss it was because i was grieving the loss of who i used to be And so in a way, it was like a death because I was letting go of that.

Speaker 1 I was letting go of this image that I created, this man that I'd created.

Speaker 2 And what came with that man? What came with the family?

Speaker 1 Exactly. And so then I had to, you don't have it all figured out.
I'll be honest with you, though, Jay, I still don't have it all figured out. I wake up every day and I'm still figuring it out.

Speaker 1 I think as humans, we are. I'm grateful for that because that means I'm always learning and I'm always growing.
And if I'm growing, then that makes me feel happy because I'm alive. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, no one ever has it all figured out.

Speaker 2 Me too. I fully agree.

Speaker 1 I don't, I mean, people think because you've got a book or because you've had some success at work or, you know, you got it all figured out. No one's got it all figured out.

Speaker 1 But I think for me, I've always been

Speaker 1 really interested in other people's journeys and inspiration and understanding how someone else took on. And listen, my journey is not for everyone.

Speaker 1 Everyone's different and everyone has their own journey. But sometimes you can just take something from it.
And, you know, for me, that's why I did the book was I was trying to.

Speaker 1 help people come back to themselves. And I don't think I can do that if I'm not telling them my story.
Yeah. You know, to say I had a really dark moment too.
A lot of people have had dark moments too.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But it's, it's brave and important to share it.

Speaker 2 And that's one of the reasons why I've been talking about the difference between Western and Eastern ideologies, because in the West, you have this before and after. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it's like, I used to be like this. Now I'm healed.
I'm fit. I'm amazing.
And the reality is the Eastern worldview would say everything's cyclical. You're always two steps forward, three steps back.

Speaker 2 100%. You're always maintaining.
You're always sustaining. You don't just, it's almost like you you don't just end up with a six-pack.
It's like that's something that takes daily work.

Speaker 1 One week is there and the next week I'm like, what happened?

Speaker 2 Yeah. And that's, and that's something that's physical that you can see and it's tangible.
100%. What to speak of emotional grieving and growth.

Speaker 2 And so that idea of before and after, it doesn't really exist because it's like before what and after what. 100%.

Speaker 2 The reality is you're constantly growing, each and every one of us, and me included too.

Speaker 2 I think even with the work I do, I definitely carry that baggage sometimes of people thinking I'm teaching from the place of perfection.

Speaker 2 And it's like we're not trying to yeah it's like actually i'm trying to do the opposite i'm just trying to be a friend who's nudging you in the right direction and yeah by the way i do this as much for you as i do it for me 100 because the more i talk about these ideas the more and i'm sure you felt that with your book the more you're talking about these ideas the more responsible you feel to actually live them to breathe them for yourself and honestly i feel like if there was something like this when i was a kid when I was that eight-year-old kid or 12-year-old kid at school and I heard someone maybe talking about that experience, it probably could have saved me going in in the direction I did and made other choices you know but that's life I'm doing some research for my new book right now and I was researching the I was speaking to the head of suicide at Harvard yeah and he told me two things that stayed with me one was that one of his friends committed suicide even though he knew his friend was the head of suicide at Harvard, but never told him anything.

Speaker 2 And so it just shows how hard it is to even talk about it with someone,

Speaker 2 even though your friend is an expert.

Speaker 2 And so just because you're a therapist or a coach or a guide, it's not easy for people to open up about these things.

Speaker 1 No, I've found it incredibly difficult to sort of just talk about it, but I hope that in doing so, that it will help someone else.

Speaker 1 And it's not to say any of the things I've done are right or wrong, but it was my journey and it led me to where I'm at now.

Speaker 1 And I think if you can take some of the shame away from people struggling in life, and you know, I think someone like me where people perceive me to have it all figured out, maybe to know that they've not, and there's been some really hard times in my life, enables people to be able to talk about theirs too and feel free to be able to express them at that time.

Speaker 1 There isn't so much shame around it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it doesn't make you weak. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it doesn't make you weak that you're having a tough time right now, or you're struggling to pay the bills,

Speaker 2 or you're struggling to take care of the family you love.

Speaker 1 And everyone's challenge is different, you know, and that's the beautiful thing of life.

Speaker 1 Did any men come back from your childhood over time that you feel reconciled their relationship with you or you mean like the bullies or whatever or bullies or even yeah bullies family like anyone that you think was negligent maybe or unaware at that time did you ever have any good conversations with any men as life went on my brother actually is actually recently we were very different he was in a very different place in his life and i was just a kid trying to grow up you know he was a good 10 years older than me maybe maybe 12 years no it was 12 years older than me he actually met me in london i was there for some shoot and he said i wanted to meet you and i'm like all right well okay so we met and had dinner and he actually apologized and he sat down and he said you know i was really shit to you i was really shitty brother and i i don't think i realized how much pain you were in and um i think he was in his own pain because everyone's got their own journey and you know i found forgiveness in that i found forgiveness and it was actually really really special like i say that's what i mean it wasn't an overnight thing this is literally 10 years later like my brother's apologizing but i also am mature enough and have done the work enough to recognize that he was going through a difficult time he used drugs and he was going through his own thing but you know he his sort of acknowledgement of that still stopped me in my tracks and was like yeah that was tough but i forgive you and i think forgiveness is also a beautiful thing and letting go and and moving on yeah i like to move on i like to go right through something

Speaker 1 and then let it go and i think that's a beautiful thing it's brutal it's really hard so easy to avoid so many people avoid stuff complete avoidant complete just let's pretend it's not happening.

Speaker 1 But for me, what works is to really feel it and sit in it because then I feel like I can let it go.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it's really mature to have that worldview of recognizing that everyone's going through their journey and their pain at the same time as you are. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it's really hard to compare pains because

Speaker 2 you can't. They're all so unique.

Speaker 1 And everyone's valid.

Speaker 2 And everyone's got their own journey. But to accept that requires a lot of maturity in depth.
But first, here's a quick word from the brands that support the show.

Speaker 2 Comfort isn't just about how something feels. It's about what it's made of and what it stands for.
The avocado green mattress is built on that belief.

Speaker 2 Each mattress features thousands of individually cased steel coils that move with your body, giving you world-class back support that helps you rest, recover, and rise feeling renewed.

Speaker 2 You'll feel just as good getting into it as you do getting out of it. But real comfort also lasts.

Speaker 2 That's why avocado mattresses are handcrafted from certified organic materials for durability and long-term support, designed to stay strong and comfortable for years, not just a season.

Speaker 2 And there's peace of mind in knowing your mattress is made to some of the highest standards for safety, sustainability and social impact. Better for you and better for the planet.

Speaker 2 If you want to experience that comfort for yourself, visit an avocado retail store or one of their premier premier partners and try it in person.

Speaker 2 Head to avocadogreenmattress.com today and check out their mattress embedding sale. Avocado, dream of better.

Speaker 2 Amazon has everything for everyone on your list. Like my wife Radi, who can somehow host 20 people, cook five dishes at once, and still have the energy to rally us all around the table.

Speaker 2 I'm getting her some new board games because nothing says holiday chaos like my family swearing they're not competitive while Radhi quietly wins every single round.

Speaker 2 She even tends to be surprised which makes it worse. That's what I love about shopping with Amazon.
It's not just the gifts, it's the moments they spark.

Speaker 2 The right board game turns into a story we retell for years. A sweater sneaks into every family photo, decor becomes the backdrop for all the memories.

Speaker 2 And with Black Friday deals happening right now, I can stock up on everything. Fashion, fitness, toys, electronics, decor without leaving the house.

Speaker 2 Because whether you shop early like me or late like most of my family, Amazon makes it easy to find something meaningful. So shop Amazon's Black Friday deals now.

Speaker 2 Amazon, everything for everyone on your list.

Speaker 2 This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

Speaker 2 And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. Every time I travel, I find a part of myself I didn't know was missing.

Speaker 2 I remember being in this small town, completely unplugged and for the first time in a while, I felt still. Travel does that.
It grounds you, expands you and connects you to something deeper.

Speaker 2 That's why I'm always looking for experiences that go beyond the typical.

Speaker 2 Chase Sapphire Reserve makes traveling a breeze, earning eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel and granting access to Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide.

Speaker 2 No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 2 Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA, member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply.

Speaker 2 All right. Thank you to our sponsors.
Now let's dive back in. How does it feel now that you've said it out loud and talked about it? How does that feel in your chest heart?

Speaker 1 Well, for, I mean, probably as you could tell as I was talking, I was getting quite tight chest. If I ever even really talked about it, my chest would get very tight.
I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 1 I hope I never get used to it because it was a very extreme thing in my life. And I'm an emotional guy.
I love the people I love. And, but, but I've learned not to feel shame anymore.

Speaker 1 And I think part of dealing with shame is being able to talk about it, being able to acknowledge it, being able to look at it in the mirror.

Speaker 1 And I felt like sharing that is empowering to me and hopefully others. I feel lucky to be able to share my journey with other people.

Speaker 1 Hopefully, you know, someone finds it interesting or can give them a different perspective on their day and in their life.

Speaker 1 And I've done that in like a outward sense of a visual with people know that with my job.

Speaker 1 But I think the internal part is just really where it starts because when you marry those together, that's when you have your real power.

Speaker 2 I mean, as we've been talking about this in this journey, that

Speaker 2 none of us are perfect and it still shows up.

Speaker 2 How does shame still show up in your life today? Like, how does it still have that stronghold in your life?

Speaker 1 I woke up this morning. I'm like, I cannot talk about that.
I can't talk about that on the podcast. Had this complete panic.
I woke up this morning. I'm like, oh my God, I can't talk.

Speaker 1 People are going to think I'm crazy. Like, that was a really dark time.
And it was a secret. It was a secret.
And then I had to stop myself. And I'm like, ah, it's a secret.
It doesn't need to be.

Speaker 1 I'm not that person anymore. No one is the people that we were in that time.
We've all moved on and evolved. And I'm in a better place in my life now.

Speaker 1 And I think with wisdom comes, you know, like you being able to educate people and share people.

Speaker 1 That's like me in my hairdressing career, learning all these amazing techniques, keeping them all to myself.

Speaker 1 And everyone has said to me before, like, you really want to share your techniques, people might cop you. And I'm like, God, I hope they do.
I hope they have great hair.

Speaker 1 Yeah, everyone, everyone deserves it. I'll think of some new techniques.
I'm on to the next thing.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, I mean, look, we're human beings. Like I said, none of us have it figured out.
But I also have great people around me that be like, Chris. Remember you're helping others.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, yeah, that's what I want to do.

Speaker 2 As your journey grew, did you find you'd share these stories with clients and talk to people that you were close to?

Speaker 1 No one really knows this about me, Jay. So I think probably a lot of people might

Speaker 1 be like, okay, I didn't know that part of you. Because let's face it, in human interaction, most of the time, it's like, hi, how are you? Look great.

Speaker 1 You know, we can go, oh, yeah, and then we move on. We don't always open up the blinds and, you know, pull people in because it's difficult to do that.
It's difficult.

Speaker 1 You know, even on social media, people say to me, oh, you know, you look like you have this polished social media. You bring people in more.

Speaker 1 It's difficult sometimes to do that when it's a camera in front of you. And I think I've always been very one-on-one.
That's what I do.

Speaker 1 But that's why I wanted to package it up and put it it into something that people could read and take in themselves.

Speaker 2 I want to know what happened because this was all still while you were back home in England.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so this isn't even the career journey that we see now.

Speaker 2 That hadn't even began then.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 In terms of the public part of it. How soon after did you end up moving to America and did everything shift?

Speaker 1 I stayed in, I moved to America when I was 31. So it was four years later.
And during that time, I'd started to travel backwards and forwards. I was kind of commuting backwards and forwards.

Speaker 1 I started working with an artist and, you know, they travel around. I was kind of doing different types of hairdressing work.

Speaker 1 I remember I got a call once, I was in London, and I had an email actually that came through, and it was from JLo's team. And I remember thinking, oh,

Speaker 1 wow. But it was too much to kind of take in.
I was like, J-Lo, it's like, are you available? You know, we wanted to see if Chris Appleton was available for a Vegas show. And I was like, oh,

Speaker 1 that's interesting. And then I thought, well, how does Jaylo know who I am? It was the beginning of social media.

Speaker 1 And I was posting, not really knowing what I'm doing, but I was just posting all the different hairstyles I was doing. So I guess when I look back, my brand quite quickly was apparent.

Speaker 1 I was always changing up. I'm not your beachy wave kind of guy.
I like to do a look, do the next one, move on. That's next.
I was very excited by hair. And I was just posting all that.
So

Speaker 1 I kind of thought, well, that's cool, but I'm in England and that's Hollywood.

Speaker 1 It's not the land of dreams. You know, it's far, far, far away.
And they won't go to fly me out. So I was like, all right, well, I just left it.

Speaker 1 And I thought, maybe this is just like a, maybe it's like a fake email. You know, you get a lot of random emails.
Hey, dear sir, madam, you've won 10,000. And I'm like, oh, have I?

Speaker 1 You know, I don't reply into them anymore. But for when I was younger, I used to.
So I left it. And a few months later, I got another email.
I thought, well, maybe this is a thing. Maybe like...

Speaker 1 Maybe I could go to LA. You know, it seemed like the big shining star.
And I was like, that's where a lot of stars are. And I loved the excitement.

Speaker 1 And as a kid, I was always really sort of mesmerized by the power of transformation. Back then, it was Madonna.
You know, she would have a different look per album.

Speaker 1 And I always loved how each look really, it started a trend. People would start to wear it in the streets.
And it was like a whole vibe. So I thought, well, maybe I'll go to LA.

Speaker 1 So I pretty much decided to do it. I packed two suitcases.
I had a whole apartment in London that I'd worked very hard for. It was a small basement one, but nevertheless, it was mine.

Speaker 1 And I packed two suitcases and I moved to move to LA.

Speaker 2 Without even a plan?

Speaker 1 No. And you didn't have a dream.

Speaker 1 No, nothing. I had a dream.

Speaker 1 I was like...

Speaker 2 How many followers did you have at this time?

Speaker 1 Four or five thousand.

Speaker 1 Right, right. Oh, wow.
So really early days. Yeah, really early days.
But I did have a hope and I thought, what's the worst that could happen? I'll come back if it doesn't work.

Speaker 1 So I remember I moved to America. And for the first three or four months, I didn't do anything.
I'd spent all my money. LA is really expensive.

Speaker 1 And I remember thinking, I'm going to have to go back home. And then I got a call to do Christina Aguilera's hair on the voice, which I speak a little bit about in the book.

Speaker 1 It was an experience that didn't go so well. It was like my one opportunity, and it seemed to go very wrong.

Speaker 2 You felt you didn't?

Speaker 1 It went wrong to go right. I mean, I was such an excited guy.
I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to.
do my thing. It's the voice.
Everyone watches the voice.

Speaker 1 But what you have to understand is when you live in the UK, it's like this many people see it.

Speaker 1 When you live in the us it's like the world sees it it just was bigger everything was bigger and i remember going to the voice and there was like three hours to do glam and um the head the makeup artist went in inside the trailer and i just sat outside so i was like okay i'll just wait for a bit and an hour went by and i was like

Speaker 1 well maybe she don't need too much done to her hair you know and then two hours went by and i'm like well maybe like

Speaker 1 The hair is probably done and I'm just going to be finessing it, you know? And then the last 20 minutes before the live show, I'm like,

Speaker 1 I mean, should I just go home? And they called me in. So I thought, well, you know, she's definitely got her hair done.
It's going to be good. Right? 20 minutes.
I mean, what else can it be?

Speaker 1 So I go in and it wasn't good.

Speaker 1 It wasn't done. It was ready to be done.
So she's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, well,

Speaker 1 what I really want to do is have two hours to do that, but whatever. We've got 20 minutes.

Speaker 2 Were they waiting for you to go in or no? No, I think she was just like doing makeup, probably got chat in.

Speaker 1 And there was no ill intention or anything. It was was just like whatever, you know, like you're in the chair every day, you know, and then I went in.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 So I did that thing that hairdressers do where you stop moving the hair around. Have you ever sat in a chair and a hairdresser's just kind of like just kind of touching it and

Speaker 1 it means we don't know what we're doing. It's just, we're kind of just like hoping something's going to happen.
So I said to her, like, would you, have you ever tried a wig?

Speaker 1 So I thought that would be great because it'd be fast. And she's like, I don't like wigs.
So I'm like, oh.

Speaker 1 Of course, you don't like wigs.

Speaker 1 And then I really lost myself. And I was like, why would you like anything I've got to do? Like, you see me.
You see the little boy standing at the window. You see little Chris.

Speaker 1 Like, what am I doing here? I'm a joke. I'm a joke.

Speaker 1 And I felt like that shame again. And I felt small, so small.

Speaker 1 And I just had this moment. It was actually the mother of my kids, Kate, who we are still best friends.
And she has always been so supportive throughout my career.

Speaker 1 I called her on the way and she said to me, look, Chris, if you don't make this work, you're going to have to come home. Because I have responsibility.
I'm a dad. I have the kids, you know.

Speaker 1 And I remember thinking, if I don't make make this work, I'm going to have to go home. So I thought, you know what? Let me do me.
And if she doesn't like it, that's cool. We're just not a match.

Speaker 1 But if I don't do me and do everything I know, I'm 31. I've spent my whole life learning this craft.

Speaker 1 If I don't do me and walk around, I'll always kick myself. So I said, you know what? You've never tried my wigs.
Let's try it. And she was like, all right.
So I put it on her head.

Speaker 1 And she was like, oh.

Speaker 1 And I'd finessed wigs. I got really good at them because I used to work with cancer patients.
So I went all these little tricks.

Speaker 1 I kind of like from one area of my life then turned into making me good at it for stars. And so I put it on her head and there was no time.
She was like, I like it. So I put it on.

Speaker 1 It was like no time. She literally got up and ran off onto the, onto the show.
And then she's on live TV.

Speaker 1 And, you know, that was a time of social media because I was also very nervous because I was like, well, everyone's going to have an opinion on this. And when it's good, it's great.

Speaker 1 And when it's bad, it's not.

Speaker 1 When it's bad, you'll know about it.

Speaker 2 When it's good, it's okay.

Speaker 1 Exactly. It's bad.

Speaker 1 It's bad. So I remember she came off the stage and it was like a little break and she was talking to someone like this and she looked over at me and she went, everyone likes your wig.

Speaker 1 And then just carried on talking. And in that moment, I knew that it and it was great.
Like she looked great and then we worked together. You know, it was the beginning of the day.

Speaker 1 I didn't make a trainer. The wig fell off.
It looked great.

Speaker 1 I don't want people to think I... I'm being arrogant in telling that story because I would put so much of my whole life into my craft.
I wanted to learn it inside out, upside down, left to right.

Speaker 1 I knew every aspect of her for me to be able to be able to stand there and know that it was the right thing to do. I wasn't being pushy or anything.
I just knew that this was right.

Speaker 1 And therefore, if it, if it didn't work, it's like a relationship. If it didn't work, it's okay.
Yeah. I tried.
If I don't do what I know to be true and good, then I'll always kick myself.

Speaker 1 And I'd hate that. And I think part of my coming out story and, you know, seeing my full self again was not ever letting myself not be seen.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I wanted to present as I was and the knowledge I knew. And that was, it was a success story.
And that was the beginning of my career in Hollywood. It just rolled on.

Speaker 1 Once people saw her hair, because we did this kind of really icy wig, and then I did these hoops in the hair. And then I started working with Ariana and then Kim and then Adele.
And it was JLo.

Speaker 1 And it just, Katie Perry, just evolved, you know, because people were like, oh, who's doing that? Oh, that's cool. You know, pop stars or artists.
You started to change the hair up.

Speaker 1 So it's like, okay.

Speaker 1 So it was very fast.

Speaker 1 That was very fast, but I was very prepared because I'd spent 31 years of my life learning it.

Speaker 2 It's really interesting because I'll tell you later, I have a very similar story of, because when I first moved out here, everyone was asking me to teach them how to meditate or coaching them or guiding them spiritually on their life.

Speaker 2 And so I was meeting a lot of people and our work, funnily enough, is similar, even though it's very different. It's very intimate.
It's very one-on-one. 100%.

Speaker 2 Really present in someone's life.

Speaker 2 And I had a similar experience. But the thing I found as well was if I was trying to be what they wanted me to be, I couldn't be that.

Speaker 1 I just knew how to do what I do.

Speaker 2 And that's really hard when you feel inexperienced. Yeah.
You feel like an imposter. Yeah.
And you feel like you don't belong here, which is how I felt too.

Speaker 1 Totally, which we all feel. Which we all feel.
Even when you have success or whatever, you know.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And you come and you're like, oh no, but this is a bigger world.
It's a different world and it's different eyeballs. And then you're just like, no, actually, I have to trust.

Speaker 2 the work that I've done up until now. And that doesn't make me egotistic.
Totally. It just makes me experienced.
Totally. I've got to trust the experience I have.
100%.

Speaker 2 And most importantly, it makes me me. So I love that message from your experience there, which was if you hadn't done the wig, it would have just looked terrible.

Speaker 1 Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 Because you wouldn't have been able to do anything with it in that time. Exactly.
And so you had to trust your instincts, which was my experience says, let's go with the wig. Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's amazing. And then obviously you became such good friends with Kim and everyone.
It's like, what's been your favorite part about building these amazing relationships?

Speaker 2 Because the work is so intimate. It is so.

Speaker 2 connected to them.

Speaker 1 I'm so grateful to work with everyone I've worked with. I always feel very lucky to work in their presence because they're amazing at what they do.
You know, they're an artist in their realm.

Speaker 1 And to be a part of it, I just feel very grateful. And, you know, Kim, I've become very good friends with.
I have so much respect for her. To see her up close, to see,

Speaker 1 you know, the world sees one thing. They see Kim Kardashian.
I don't really see her like that. She is Kim, you know, and she is a mother, an amazing mother.

Speaker 1 She is a businesswoman, you know, to see what she did with Skims and build that.

Speaker 1 Just to see how she is with everyone that walks in the door. You know, she speaks to whether it's an assistant, a light-in person, what she says hello to everyone, introduces herself.

Speaker 1 She doesn't have to, but she's just a great person. She's world class, a really, really great person.
And so, I think organically, you spend so much time together with the people you work with.

Speaker 1 Obviously, there's a friendship there. And I'm just incredibly grateful I've got to work with the people I do and, you know, see them in the light I do.
Because I guess not everyone does.

Speaker 1 Because, again, we all make assumptions. Everyone's just seen a vision or an image or a quick clip on TV or a clip here on social media.
And we all make assumptions. It's what we do.
It's okay.

Speaker 1 But I just feel grateful to have seen a side that maybe others haven't and um yeah i'm sure you've done a lot of things

Speaker 2 what are people like really i'm sure you get that all the time from people back at home as well like oh what are people really like behind the camera and it's i always find it so refreshing to be able to be like no a lot of the people you watch uh they're actually really wonderful and nice

Speaker 2 there isn't some big conspiracy you know it's just they're just wonderful humans who are really nice and they're really great at what they do what they do yeah what they do and and yeah, they treat everyone with respect.

Speaker 2 And it isn't as juicy as you want it to be. No, don't they? Yeah.
So with your journey with that piece, it feels like, I mean, you said it earlier, you were like, it only gets harder.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it feels like even though now you were having this success and that was moving fast and you have become the person you've become where you are the go-to person in the city, but across the states for all of these people to turn to whether they're musicians models talent and then i think now now it's been like just a year from your divorce again.

Speaker 2 And that was with a very public relationship. Was that the first time you'd had a public relationship?

Speaker 1 It was definitely the first time

Speaker 1 that I'd experienced that

Speaker 1 magnitude of people being so invested in my private life.

Speaker 2 What was it like having such a public, romantic relationship as someone who, for years before that,

Speaker 2 let alone having a public relationship, you weren't even in a relationship with a man.

Speaker 1 This is the first time I've ever spoke about this. And I think people have this perception from social media, probably like I said, that

Speaker 1 I have it together. I work with these amazing people.
Life looks glamorous. So from the outside, it probably looks like I got it all together.

Speaker 1 But the truth is, especially during that time, I was going through a lot of private pain. And then you go with all the online speculation part.
People say things about you.

Speaker 1 There's things in the tabloid and people have an opinion on your life. And that can be incredibly intense, especially when you're just trying to deal with things.
I think for me,

Speaker 1 what really helped me was not being okay.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I've always believed in therapy and I work with a therapist to really sit. in my feelings and really go through them and understand how I felt.

Speaker 1 And that is really brutal to go through it. But for for me, coming out the other side, there's a part of you that feels like you can, you know, reflect on it and move on.

Speaker 1 One of the biggest lessons I learned is finding alignment. From what I do is all about visual, you know, it's what I've done my whole life.

Speaker 1 And even what people see of me is this visual representation of Chris Appleton. But I think for me, there was a real peace in finding alignment and inner peace on the inside.

Speaker 1 And like I said, that wasn't an easy process. But I think when you align those two, when you genuinely feel good on the inside, I think that's when your real power comes in place.

Speaker 1 And I think, you know, just because there's a headline about you doesn't necessarily mean you have to go and explain to everyone about your life.

Speaker 1 And I think for me, I really wanted to deal with it with peace and deal with it my way. You know, that's the interesting thing about living in the public eye is people have an opinion.

Speaker 1 And that's okay. I don't mind people saying good and bad things because you put yourself out into the arena, you're going to get that.
But I think for me as a dad, I wanted to protect my kids.

Speaker 1 I always want to do that. And I'm very aware any relationship I go into, there will be a conversation around that.

Speaker 1 And so I think for me, making sure that I had that internal alignment, which I never had my whole life, finding that and being comfortable with that and finding happiness was a really beautiful thing.

Speaker 1 And, you know, you can love someone and then not be a forever happy ending. I think you learn so much from it.
I think any relationship I've ever gone into, I've learned so much from it.

Speaker 1 I've learnt what's important to me in terms of boundaries, in terms of how I want to be loved, how I want to love. And that's a beautiful thing because it means you're always growing and evolving.

Speaker 2 Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors.

Speaker 2 Comfort isn't just about how something feels. It's about what it's made of and what it stands for.
The avocado green mattress is built on that belief.

Speaker 2 Each mattress features thousands of individually cased steel coils that move with your body, giving you world-class back support that helps you rest, recover and rise feeling renewed.

Speaker 2 You'll feel just as good getting into it as you do getting out of it. But real comfort also lasts.

Speaker 2 That's why avocado mattresses are handcrafted from certified organic materials for durability and long-term support. designed to stay strong and comfortable for years, not just a season.

Speaker 2 And there's peace of mind in knowing your mattress is made to some of the highest standards for safety, sustainability, and social impact. Better for you and better for the planet.

Speaker 2 If you want to experience that comfort for yourself, visit an avocado retail store or one of their premier partners and try it in person.

Speaker 2 Head to avocadogreenmattress.com today and check out their mattress and bedding sale.

Speaker 1 Avocado, dream of better.

Speaker 2 Amazon has everything for everyone on your list. Like my wife Radi, who can somehow host 20 people, cook 5 dishes at once and still have the energy to rally us all around the table.

Speaker 2 I'm getting her some new board games because nothing says holiday chaos like my family swearing they're not competitive while Radi quietly wins every single round.

Speaker 2 She even tends to be surprised, which makes it worse. That's what I love about shopping with Amazon.
It's not just the gifts, it's the moments they spark.

Speaker 2 The right board game turns into a story we retell for years. A sweater sneaks into every family photo, decor becomes the backdrop for all the memories.

Speaker 2 And with Black Friday deals happening right now, I can stock up on everything. Fashion, fitness, toys, electronics, decor without leaving the house.

Speaker 2 Because whether you shop early like me or late like most of my family, Amazon makes it easy to find something meaningful. So shop Amazon's Black Friday deals now.

Speaker 2 Amazon, everything for everyone on your list.

Speaker 2 This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

Speaker 2 And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. Every time I travel, I find a part of myself I didn't know was missing.

Speaker 2 I remember being in this small town, completely unplugged, and for the first time in a while, I felt still. Travel does that.
It grounds you, expands you, and connects you to something deeper.

Speaker 2 That's why I'm always looking for experiences that go beyond the typical.

Speaker 2 Chase Sapphire Reserve makes traveling a breeze, earning eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel and granting access to Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide.

Speaker 2 No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 2 Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA, member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply.

Speaker 2 Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now back to the discussion.
It was you who filed for a divorce, right? Like you were the one who ended it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 When you look at that in the perspective of the whole conversation that we've had and everything you've been through i can imagine that's not easy again no but i think again like it doesn't mean you don't learn something about yourself and just because it's not forever doesn't mean it didn't mean something

Speaker 1 and it's a bit like going to buy a house like you know we could go and look at houses i particularly like

Speaker 1 bright lots of space. I don't like confined and dark.
Some people do. And that's okay.
It's just not aligned.

Speaker 1 And I think one of the biggest things I realized about any relationship I've been into or go into is the importance of alignment. And I think for a long time I didn't have that.

Speaker 1 And I think finding that within myself has been special. It's about growth.
And like I say, as long as I'm growing and evolving,

Speaker 1 then I'm alive. And that feels great.

Speaker 2 Why do you think you didn't have that alignment maybe when you met? And because it moved fast, right?

Speaker 1 Look, moving fast doesn't always mean you're reckless. I think sometimes it means you're hopeful.
And I think any relationship I've ever been into, I've gone into with an open heart.

Speaker 1 And I have no regrets about that. I think we shame people too much for leading with an open heart.

Speaker 1 And I think the sad part about that, especially when it doesn't work out, and I think the sad part about that is you can learn to attract and protect yourself.

Speaker 1 But I would rather love and fall than to never feel anything at all.

Speaker 1 And I think I'd rather experience something and feel alive than to never put my thought out in the water. And I think as long as

Speaker 1 you're growing and evolving from it, and things don't always go to plan, I think as long as you go through it and go through the process of healing, I think that's really important.

Speaker 1 Then I think you're doing all you can. I don't know.
I feel like I felt like a responsibility to just really look at everything as any situation I've ever been in.

Speaker 1 I've always tried to look back and reflect of like,

Speaker 1 Do I feel aligned? I'm happy with where I'm at in my life, how it is visually, and how I feel internally.

Speaker 1 And, you know, if not, being able to sit in that and sit with it and process it and go through it has been a really magical part because it doesn't really matter what anyone else says.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know my truth and I feel happy. I really value the people that are in my life.
I have an amazing family. I've worked really hard for my career.
I love the people.

Speaker 1 I've supported family and I'm really grateful for that.

Speaker 1 And ending doesn't mean it didn't mean anything. It just means it ended, you know, as many relationships I've been through in my life, friendships, relationships, they've ended.

Speaker 1 And I've tried to learn something each time from that experience.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I really appreciate your take on

Speaker 2 not closing off and not kind of building a wall to,

Speaker 2 and you are right, we do make people feel bad for falling in love or moving fast or whatever it may be. And I think also

Speaker 2 coming from a South Asian culture, I've seen the dangers of demonizing divorce.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And looking at divorce as a failure or a negative thing when actually I look at my community and I'm like, I wish this person would get divorced and this person would get divorced because you know the truth.

Speaker 2 And when they open up to you. 100%.
And so it's almost,

Speaker 2 it's interesting. We've made people feel bad for

Speaker 2 maybe opening their heart and

Speaker 1 falling in love.

Speaker 2 And we also make people feel bad for.

Speaker 1 And I get it. Like, I get it.
And people love to say, like, oh, I knew, you know, that would happen and that wouldn't last. But I don't know.
It's just who I am.

Speaker 1 I go in wholeheartedly into every friendship, every relationship, you know, every family member. And I've learned to protect myself and also honor myself.

Speaker 1 Like I say, I keep mentioning alignment, but it really is a key part of my healing is to be able to leave a situation when it's not right anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Why did it feel, again, important for you to talk about it now as part of this journey with the book?

Speaker 1 I think there's just always, I think every part of my life, if there's something in the tabloid or people want to know, I think I would like to sort of share my experience so people can relate and maybe not feel so alone.

Speaker 1 My biggest goal is to make people realize that it doesn't matter where you came from, it doesn't matter what the situation was that you got stuck in, you can move on, you can you can evolve your life and you can have your comeback at any age, at any age, it's never too late.

Speaker 1 So many people think it's too late if they're not 20, they think they're done.

Speaker 1 And I think, I don't know, some things are for a season and some things are forever. Like, that's life.
Life

Speaker 1 is life.

Speaker 1 Love is messy. People are complicated.
We all bring our old trauma and baggage into a relationship, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 like I said, that's just life. It's about alignment.
And if something's not aligned, it's okay, whether it's a relationship or a friendship or a marriage or whatever it is in your life.

Speaker 1 I think so many people get so fearful of not moving on or or change. Change is so scary to people.
Change, I know by just people changing their hair, how terrifying that'll be.

Speaker 1 That, well, people are going to recognize me or people are going to, I'm like, yeah, that's great. See, a new you.
See, actually, a you, that's, this is actually going to be great for you.

Speaker 1 You're going to have a whole new look. You could have been stuck with that old hairstyle that you showed me a minute ago, your whole life.
You know what I mean? Like, thank God too much.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, no, thank god, yeah, literally. You know, it's like, but if you don't know, you don't know.
Yeah. At the time, I bet you thought you were killing that.

Speaker 1 I thought I was like, yeah, this is sad. I straightened my hair.
Why do you straighten your hair? Because someone told me to. Yeah, beautiful, natural texture.
Someone bringing you back to that.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't know. It kind of helps you form who you are.
Whereas maybe you conform to society because society said you should straighten curly hair.

Speaker 1 I don't know what the answer was, but

Speaker 1 we're all conditioned to that, following the lead and following the pack. And you don't always have to do that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 To not do that, you have to have some balls. And like,

Speaker 1 I think part of finding that strength is to be able to sit with yourself. And I can honestly say any situation now that I'm ever in, I can sit with myself and I can process it.

Speaker 1 And it's not always easy. In fact, doing the work is brutal.
It's never easy. But the last thing I feel like I need to do is tell everyone because it's my journey.
It's my story.

Speaker 1 And, you know, when I'm ready, which is why I'm doing the book now, you know, you can share it.

Speaker 2 How did you protect your peace at the time? Because I imagine it's not easy when you're going through it. Headlines,

Speaker 2 whether you take them seriously or react or not, they still hurt.

Speaker 2 And everyone's asking, you know, I know what it feels like where you're, sometimes I find that when you also have family that's not connected to the industry, I'll always get a load of messages as well from back home, from friends and family going, oh, I just saw this thing about, you know, whatever, or I just saw that.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, guys, like, I'm dealing with it. Like, you know, this is normal in my world now.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But it's not normal for them. No.
And I can find that that's hard sometimes.

Speaker 2 Was there any of that feeling of that kid looking out the window? Like, was that any of that coming back through this as well? Or how did you protect your peace at that time?

Speaker 1 I think there's a lot of private pain, like I say. No one is immune to it.
But I think for me, working with, like, I have an amazing therapist I've always worked with, and I am so pro-therapist.

Speaker 2 Was it the same person that you wrote to the whole time?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Wow.
For how many years? Maybe the last, it was since I moved to America, so nine years.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 That's impressive.

Speaker 1 And for me, therapy just enables you to like sit in it. Therapy really helps you to do that.
And therapy really helps you to move on and let go of situations that, you know, no longer serve you.

Speaker 2 So it's been around two years now. Where's your headspace at now?

Speaker 1 I think I just feel grateful to have had the experiences I've had in my life and to have the knowledge and the wisdom to be able to process them

Speaker 1 and let go of it. and move on.
And I think with every chapter of my life, I'm so grateful I had that each and every experience, good and bad, because it led me to where I'm at now.

Speaker 1 I think I'm in a good place, not every day,

Speaker 1 but more so than I ever have been in my life where I've abandoned myself. And it's such an easy thing to do.
And I'm just so aware of doing that now. It's like I can't not see it.

Speaker 1 Once you see yourself, you know how many people look in the mirror every day? You look in the mirror maybe, I think the average is 12 times a day.

Speaker 1 They say on average it's an hour a day from brushing your teeth to, you know, checking your hair, whatever it is, having your hair cut.

Speaker 1 An hour of your day looking yourself in the mirror. So many people see a reflection.
Not everyone looks at themselves. We just look, but no one actually really looks.

Speaker 1 And part of my job and my journey has been, I guess, showing people the real mirror so people can really see themselves and be seen.

Speaker 1 And a lot of people are not seen. And when you really see people and you break it down to like,

Speaker 1 Why have you always done this? Why have you always repeated this behavior? Why have you always got yourself into the same situation? Why have you got yourself into the same relationship?

Speaker 1 There's a pattern to it. Once you see the pattern and once you break it down, you can change it.
That's really empowering.

Speaker 1 I did it with hair for a long time, but I didn't realize I was also doing it in an internal way. And everyone can relate to that people saying, your hairdresser is your therapist.

Speaker 1 I didn't even know I was doing that.

Speaker 2 It's such a real part of it.

Speaker 1 The difference is I used to do it with everyone else and I'd see them. And you know what? Never saw myself.
I didn't see myself for 27 years of my life. I didn't allow myself to look.

Speaker 1 It was easier to make other people see themselves than for me to look at myself. When I saw myself, I couldn't not see it anymore.
I couldn't not see who I was and who I'd become.

Speaker 1 And that defining moment of my life changed every decision moving forward. And so if in a bad friendship, if I'm in a bad relationship, if I'm in a bad work environment, I'll leave it.

Speaker 1 if it no longer serves me. And if I feel like I've done everything I can to be the best person I can, and no one's perfect.
Humans are messy. That's okay.

Speaker 1 But I've learned to respect myself enough to be able to, you know, go back to that little boy at the window and say, it's okay. You know, you don't have to be in that anymore.

Speaker 1 You don't have to feel alone. You can be seen.
And

Speaker 1 I hope that's what everyone does and maybe finds a bit of that when they read the book. And obviously it's called Your Roots Don't Define You.
It's about roots.

Speaker 1 And it's a double-edged sword, but it is such a powerful thing that if you actually stand and look look in the mirror and look at yourself, this book is for anyone that looks back and is like, is this it?

Speaker 1 Or anyone that looks in the mirror and is like, I don't really know why I look the way I look.

Speaker 1 Or anyone that does have some success, but is so miserable. Or some of our times just people thinking there must be more to life.

Speaker 1 Hopefully this will help people feel like they can change that and they can have their comeback and they can transform not only the way they look on the visual because everyone knows I do that but if they can do it internally i'm telling you now their life will change and i hope people can take what i learn because i feel like everyone deserves to be free yeah you know i see people in the supermarket i see people walking in the street and i'm like i wish you knew what i knew you know and and i think it's just really special to be able to share that journey what do you see in the mirror now when you look in the mirror you see yourself it depends on the day

Speaker 1 some days it's all right and other days um you know like i'm still like

Speaker 1 I really should lose five pounds. Does my hair look good better blonde? You know, you read a comment on social media, like, you look way better blonde.
And I'm like, oh, my hair are better blonde.

Speaker 1 You know, it's all right. We all have those voices in the head.
I hope they're always there. It keeps me alive.
It keeps, I just laugh at myself now. I think I try and treat most things with humor.

Speaker 1 You know, if I do see a headline about myself or if I do see someone say something, I'll try and laugh it off because otherwise, what else are you going to do?

Speaker 1 You know, it's like, I probably couldn't have done that before. If I went back 10 years, I probably couldn't do that.

Speaker 1 I probably would have gone crazy and been like, oh my God, now I'm like, it's okay. It's just someone else's opinion.
That's all right. You know, I can actually laugh at it.

Speaker 1 I'm like, well, you know what? I probably do look a bit like, I need to lose five pounds. Or I don't know.
I can relate to it or just at least laugh at it. We were talking about red carpet pictures.

Speaker 1 They can make you crazy. You know, like you think pretty good about yourself.
Yeah, I'm good. You know, I feel like I look good.
You take a picture. Is that what I look like?

Speaker 2 Oh, man. Tell me about it.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 I saw this picture of myself and I was like head to toe in brown. And for some reason, the background was red, and my hair was kind of the same colour, and I look like a log.

Speaker 1 And that, you know, it's this text chain where I'm texting my home like, I look like a log. What the, and I just laugh at it.
You know, it's all right, it's fine. It's just nothing's perfect.

Speaker 2 You get over it after you realize there's more bad pictures of you and Getty than good ones.

Speaker 1 100%.

Speaker 2 And then you go, all right, I'm good with it.

Speaker 1 And that's the same with like a headline or whatever. I'm like, it's all right, it's cool, you know, fine, whatever.
I mean, it's not easy. I'm not, I'm not saying I laugh everything off at all.

Speaker 1 I'm, I have, I'm a dad, and my number one goal is to protect my kids, you know, because they're going to see everything my family see everything but i've also learned to be able to know that if i'm aligned sometimes i have to go back to that alignment and i have to sit back in it i'm okay

Speaker 1 what have the kids read the book have your kids yeah they have

Speaker 1 well i think it's kind of for the for them it's interesting because i'm dad I think one of the proudest moments of my life is the fact that

Speaker 1 they have been through so much on this journey with me, but they can still look at me and call me dad proudly.

Speaker 1 And that means everything to me.

Speaker 1 And I don't want to have any secrets. I want to share my journey with them.
And as difficult as some of those topics are, I'd rather show them and say that was really hard. And I moved on.

Speaker 1 And this is where I'm at now. And I didn't just move on because like it was easy.
I moved on because I went through it and it was brutal and it was challenging.

Speaker 1 But do the work, you know, and it it will lead you to a better place.

Speaker 2 We reached out to the kids and they sent us a note for you.

Speaker 1 To my kids, really?

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 there's one each. And

Speaker 2 I'm going to ask you, I haven't read them yet, so I'm going to hear them for the first time too. I'm going to ask you to read Kitties Out Loud.

Speaker 2 You can read it out for us because I've not read it either.

Speaker 2 I wanted to save it for you.

Speaker 1 There are so many things I've wanted to say over the years and sometimes I don't know how to put them into words, but today I just want to tell you how proud I am truly to be your daughter.

Speaker 1 You've been my example of strength, compassion, and integrity for as long as I remember. For every chapter of life, you've shown up with grace and honesty.

Speaker 1 You've made sacrifices that I'll never fully understand. And you've given me love in a way that made me feel safe, valued, and seen.

Speaker 1 Even now, watching you open your heart up and share your story to the world, I'm constantly inspired by your vulnerability and courage. And that's rare and a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1 You've given me so much more than I could ever thank for.

Speaker 1 Your love has shaped me, and your belief in me has carried through. I love you so much, and I'm forever proud to be your daughter of Kitty.
Oh, God, I don't know.

Speaker 1 I'm shaking.

Speaker 1 Oh, God, I don't know know what to say.

Speaker 1 That's how you get me, my kids.

Speaker 1 I'm just so grateful that

Speaker 1 I have them

Speaker 1 and that they've been a part of this journey. And like I said, the biggest achievement of my whole life is that they can

Speaker 1 call me dad and say it with pride. Because there's been so many times I've not felt proud of myself and

Speaker 1 I've not been kind to myself. And I think a lot of people can relate to that abandonment of themselves.
And

Speaker 1 yeah, having them is

Speaker 1 the greatest gift.

Speaker 2 Beautiful letter. And this one's from Billy.

Speaker 1 You know what? I remember that night telling them

Speaker 1 about, you know, being gay. It was, especially for a boy, there's so, it's kind of what guys say, you're gay, you're gay.
It's always pinned as a bad thing.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I knew he was going to face so much going back to school of people talking talking and people whispering and people saying stuff to him to him.

Speaker 1 They both have gone through so much that they never let me see because they knew I was going through my own pain.

Speaker 1 So like,

Speaker 1 you know, this means a lot. Okay, dear dad, where do I even start?

Speaker 1 One of my first memories as a kid is you dressing up as a Superman to surprise me on my birthday. I thought I'd just met my hero.

Speaker 1 I didn't realize it then, but as I grew older, I came to see the real superhero wasn't the costume. It was the man inside.

Speaker 1 He went from cutting hair in a small local salon to taking a massive leap and moving across the world with nothing. And somehow, across the chaos, you built a life out there.

Speaker 1 You've worked with Hollywood stars, become a businessman, appeared on TV, and now even written a book.

Speaker 1 And through all of that, you're still the same guy who makes people laugh and lights up every room and who does everything he can to make the people around him happy.

Speaker 1 But what sticks with me the most isn't just what you've accomplished, it's what you've taught me. You've shown me how to be confident in myself and not to care what other people think.

Speaker 1 And you've taught me how to stay motivated to reach for the stars. And most importantly, you've taught me how to be respectful, kind, and caring.
And beyond proud to be

Speaker 1 keep doing you, Dad. Love From Be.

Speaker 1 Oh, God.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 I'm nearly in tears just listening. It's so beautiful, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's really special.

Speaker 2 It's amazing. Yeah.
I feel so proud to have to raise two kids who love you that much. That's pretty special.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But, you know, any parent listening knows that their only goal is to make sure their kids grow up with the least amount of pain. And we all know the harsh reality of life.

Speaker 1 You know, when you're a kid, you're so innocent and life is so free. And as we grow older, there's so much baggage thrown at us.

Speaker 1 And I think the only thing you can do is try and understand it. And I spent many of my years, like I said, trying to unpick what didn't belong to me and shake that off and shake that baggage off.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 if I can save them,

Speaker 1 if I can save them having to go through some of the struggles I went through because I didn't allow myself to be, then

Speaker 1 I did okay with that, you know. All right, should we move on? I'm so no, Chris, I'm so grateful to you.

Speaker 2 I'm so grateful to you for,

Speaker 2 you know, your time and energy writing this book. I love about how you talk.
When people dive in, they'll learn about the personal hatred that we all have inside of us. Yeah.

Speaker 2 They'll learn about how you talk about how shame lives in the shadows. Yep.
They'll learn about this whole journey of what it means to make a comeback.

Speaker 1 And also to realize that it's never too late. Yeah.
It really is never too late. And sometimes we spend years of our life trying to figure that out.

Speaker 1 But once you have that realization, and hopefully the book will be that realization that it isn't too late, and maybe a few footsteps into going into the right direction to change things.

Speaker 2 Chris, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. Okay.
These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

Speaker 1 Okay. So let's go.

Speaker 2 Chris Halfordson, this is your final five. Question number one is: What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 Live and let live. I think everyone's experience is different.
If there's one thing I've learned in this time on earth, is that everyone's going through something.

Speaker 1 Everyone has had heartache. Everyone has had trauma and different baggage.
And

Speaker 1 everyone is going through some things. I think to try and

Speaker 1 remember that and let people, you know, live and let live, you know, and be. We're so judgmental sometimes.
And we, like I said, love to put people in boxes. And that's something that we all do.

Speaker 1 But if you're aware of it, you can understand

Speaker 1 and be more forgiving towards people.

Speaker 2 My second question is, what is the worst advice you've ever received?

Speaker 1 I guess stay in your lane. I think I've been told so much in my life to fit in a box.
There's no boxes you need to fit in.

Speaker 2 Question number three.

Speaker 2 Your favourite look you've ever done for Kim and JLo?

Speaker 1 Easy. Kim's Met Ball.

Speaker 1 She did the Moogle Air look. It was like the finger waves look.
And JLo Super Bowl. Everyone, I think unanimously, they tell me they're my favourite.

Speaker 2 But those are your favourites too.

Speaker 1 They're everyone else's favorite. I think.
Well, your favourite. I want to know your favorites.

Speaker 1 Listen, I'm going against the grain. Everyone's going to come for me, but I love a blonde Kim.
And taking her platinum was a whole thing. So probably a blonde Kim.
I love that.

Speaker 1 And then J-Lo. I don't know.
I really like it when we did like a short, we did a short hairstyle for her on the Cover of Allore, and I loved it just because it was so different.

Speaker 1 I love seeing someone really take on a different character and a different story and just try it out, you know, fearlessly.

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 2 Question number four.

Speaker 1 What do you see when you look at the inner mirror now so you told us you on the outside sometimes you're like oh five pounds blonde hair yeah what does the inner mirror look like i think i see a guy that doesn't always have it together but absolutely tries his best to be the best version of himself

Speaker 1 primarily to inspire my kids that they can do the same And now this book, Silver People feel like they can share that journey with me. And I want to hear other people's stories.

Speaker 1 I want to hear other people's journey.

Speaker 1 My greatest pain growing up was that no one spoke, no one spoke about it, no one spoke about their experience.

Speaker 1 And I think the more people that speak and share their stories and their journeys, the more we can all learn and accept and grow.

Speaker 2 Well said. Fifth and final question: we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show.
Yeah. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Speaker 1 My one law would be that everyone stops, looks in the mirror, and just says,

Speaker 1 is this enough? Is this what I wanted? Is this where I'm at? And if so, great. But at least just to stop and really look.
How did we get to where we got? It's good.

Speaker 1 And to realize that if you want to change, you can. Because, like I say, I've always done that with my hands and sitting in a chair.

Speaker 1 But I realized there was this whole world that people don't know about. But once you know, you can't unsee it.

Speaker 2 Chris Appleton, the book is called Your Roots Don't Define You. Everyone who's been listening and watching, I cannot wait to see what you're taking away.

Speaker 2 I want to see all the TikToks, the Instagram reels, the stories. I love seeing what you extract from these conversations, apply in your own life.

Speaker 2 If you've had a friend or family member that you haven't even known what to say to because they've been on a similar journey, send this episode to them.

Speaker 2 I think it's going to help a lot of people on their personal journey of transformation and reflection. And make sure that you keep coming back.

Speaker 2 Make sure you subscribe so that you never miss out on an episode because it's stories like this that we built this platform for where people can come and talk about the ups the downs, the real healing and what that actually looks like.

Speaker 2 And I highly recommend you go and grab a copy of Chris's book, Your Roots Don't Define You.

Speaker 2 It's available for pre-order right now as we're speaking. Chris, thank you again so much for trusting me, for trusting the platform.

Speaker 1 Thank you for what you do, Jeremy.

Speaker 2 It's so open and honest.

Speaker 1 It's a real privilege to be here and share it with you because I feel like you too have shared your journey and it's inspiring to a lot of people. So you know you're a big inspiration to me.

Speaker 1 So to be here is very honored. So thank you for your time.

Speaker 2 I genuinely have so much respect for you to be able to talk about some really, really difficult stuff.

Speaker 2 And I think in the world right now, this message is really, really needed. There's a lot of people that this book, this interview is going to help.
And so thank you.

Speaker 2 And I'm so grateful to you for using your platform to spread this message. You could talk about your life.
You could teach people how to build a big brand. You could teach people to do so many things.

Speaker 2 But the fact that you've told them about your truth and how they can find theirs is a really beautiful offering and service. So thank you, Chris.
Thank you. Thanks so much.
Thank you, eh?

Speaker 2 If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Kendall Jenner on setting boundaries to increase happiness and healing your inner child.

Speaker 4 You could be reading something that someone is saying about you and being like, that is so unfair because that's not who I am. And that really gets to me sometimes.

Speaker 4 But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like, but I know who I am. Why does anything else matter?

Speaker 1 And now, superhuman Shaq.

Speaker 3 I keep telling them not to say that. I'm no superhuman.
Believe it or not, I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA.

Speaker 3 In adults with obesity, moderate to severe OSA is a condition where breathing is interrupted during sleep with loud snoring, choking, gasping for air, and even daytime fatigue.

Speaker 3 Let's just say it can sound a lot like this.

Speaker 3 Sound familiar? Learn more at don't sleep on OSA.com.

Speaker 1 This information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

Speaker 2 This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

Speaker 2 And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

Speaker 2 When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one-of-a-kind experiences, experiences like music festivals and sporting events.

Speaker 2 And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 2 Trust me, discover more at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank NA.
Member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply.

Speaker 2 You're juggling a lot. Full-time job, side hustle, maybe a family.
And now you're you're thinking about grad school? That's not crazy, that's ambitious.

Speaker 2 At American Public University, they respect the hustle and they're built for it. Their flexible online master's programs are made for real life because big dreams deserve a real path.

Speaker 2 Learn more about APU's 40-plus career-relevant master's degrees and certificates at apu.apus.edu. APU built for the hustle.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.