Cynthia Erivo: ‘I Was Working To Prove That I Was Worth Loving’ (How to Finally Let Go of the Need For Approval & Build Real Self-Worth)

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The Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning actor and singer you know from the color purple, Harriet and Wicked.

Oscar nominated incredible actor, singer, author, and producer.

Cynthia Arrivo.

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Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you choose to become happier, healthier, and more healed.

I'm so grateful today because I get to invite back onto the podcast, one of your favorites, one of my dearest friends, someone that I have so much love and respect for, and someone who is truly transforming the world through her energy and her presence.

She's a Tony, Emmy, and Grammy award-winning actress, singer, and songwriter known for her powerhouse performances on stage and screen.

She first captivated audiences with her Tony-winning portrayal of Selly in the color purple on Broadway.

Cynthia starred in Harriet, earning Academy Award nominations for both her performance and original song.

And Cynthia took on the iconic role of Elphalbur in the film adaptation of Wicked, earning another Academy Award nomination for her powerful performance.

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continues to make waves in music with her sophomore album, I Forgive You, set for release this summer.

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It is divine.

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Join us as we discuss Cynthia's insights on creativity, resilience, and using her voice to inspire change.

Please welcome to On Purpose, Cynthia Arriva.

Hello.

Hey, Cynthia.

Hey, Cynthia.

Oh, my gosh.

You're just...

You are magic.

You know that, right?

And it's like, and I want to go back.

And I was sharing this because it's so important for for the audience to know.

I interviewed you.

I had a audio show in the pandemic called Safe Space.

Right.

Yeah.

And I got the opportunity to interview over audio.

We'd never met before.

I don't think I'd even seen you at an event.

And I just heard your voice.

And I was captivated.

And I'd seen your work.

I knew of you, but I didn't really know you.

And I remember coming away from that audio interview, which is very different to a visual interview.

And I remember just thinking, you're one of the most unique artists in the world.

You're truly one of the most unique humans in the world.

And what's beautiful is we've been able to go on to have dinner together and hang out.

You've been on the show before.

Your episode was just, people loved it.

Like those clips are still going viral everywhere.

And I'm just really honored to get to know you beyond this incredible life and world that you've created and say you are.

as magnificent and more in person.

So thank you for coming back on.

My pleasure.

My favorite thing is having guests back on.

So thank you.

Nice.

I was excited to be able to come back and just spend a little bit more time with you, you know?

I love it.

I want to start with just, you were literally just walking me through your schedule.

Yes.

And I want to start with just how your life has been a whirlwind.

First of all, you shot two movies, not one.

Yeah.

And you were traveling the world.

Obviously, we all saw the press tour, which was absolutely insane and amazing and crazy.

You were performing at the Oscars.

Like, you know, it's just unbelievable.

And then I was asking you, like, have you even had the moment to take a break?

Not

really.

But I've been trying to make sure that I put some time in to just sort of breathe.

I went from the Oscars the day after the Oscars.

I went to South Africa and I was shooting the movie.

I haven't completed the movie yet, but I'm going to go back and finish.

But I had finished that set of it.

And then I went to London.

But within that time, whilst I was in South Africa, I was lucky enough to have like just a couple of days where I didn't didn't need to be on set.

And so I would literally use those days to rest.

And I don't mean going to do things and using them for my own, like literally staying in bed and resting.

Because I hadn't done that for a really long time.

And I realized that my body and my brain and my heart really needed it.

So I sort of fed myself like that, just stopped for a second.

What I'm trying to do, because I know it is going to ramp up again and get crazy again, even before the next movie comes out.

And with this album and all of the things that are happening this year alone before the end of the year, I know it's going to get insane.

So I think I'm trying to be conscious about how much rest I put in and how I put my schedule.

So there are times where I just, this day is going to be for rest.

Actually, we don't need to do that there.

So let's move it to this day so that there's a consecutive amount of time to sleep, time to just be, because I think it's important and I think it makes me a healthier person.

What do you do to keep yourself so healthy and fit and alert?

Because your work's so demanding, not just the travel, but we saw your performance, we saw the behind the scenes, we saw the audition tape.

It's so physically, mentally, and emotionally challenging.

What are you doing on top of everything you just said that to really stay?

I'm really picky about how I feed myself.

So it's, I take my vitamins every day.

And that sounds very, very pedantic.

And it sounds like almost like a kid, but I do take vitamins every single day.

I make sure I'm eating in the right way when I fly.

And this is not, please, all airlines do not blame me if people stop eating the food.

Please, I want you to eat if you need to.

But I don't eat on planes.

I bring my food with me because I really need to know what I'm putting in my body.

And usually, when I land, I go straight to something.

I don't usually get the chance to sort of stop and reset.

I have to go from one thing to another almost immediately.

I drink tea.

I do not drink alcohol ever.

And that's just because that's how my body works.

I'm a vegan.

I don't really eat meat because I can't process it.

I've learnt that over the years.

And so it has taken time to get to this place to where I know what is right for me.

And I have good people around me who will listen to me when I say, actually, I think it's a good time to not do this today.

It's about really being practical about how you take care of yourself and what you put in your body and

when you get rest.

And I'm not always the best when it comes to rest i have to focus when it comes to that i actually have to concentrate on making sure i put rest in but i try yeah that's what i was going to ask you are you good at slowing down no i'm terrible i'm really bad at slowing down and and but i'm good when i am slow you know what i mean you know sometimes people get really antsy about not going somewhere when they are still i'm good at being still when i need to be still you know so once i get the chance to be still i'm i'm not going anywhere yeah but that's also taken time.

You know, I haven't always been good at being in one place and okay with not going anywhere.

But now I'm really good at it because I know how valuable it is for me.

Yeah.

What got you there?

Because you're so right.

I think a lot of us, everyone will say, it takes me three days to even switch off.

And by the time you switch off, you're like, your vacation's over.

Yeah.

And now you're going back to work.

Like, what was it that helped you get to that space of how you just so beautifully said, you know what, I actually now, after some work, actually feel like i can be still and i yeah i can be present like what what was that that got you there i felt like i was missing things i think even in this last sort of year or two i had to figure out how to be really really present in what was going on and what's happening and also whilst i was shooting i was writing this album so it meant that i lots of thought was happening lots of looking back on things and remembering and you can't really do that if you aren't still sometimes when you're sat in a in a studio and you have to write write, you can't go anywhere.

And so learning that practice and doing that has really sort of shone a light on the ways in which I wasn't good at being still at times and how I was missing certain things, not really being present in the moment and enjoying what was going on.

Strangely enough, doing all of those red carpets and things made me, forced me to sort of be present and be with whoever I was talking to at that moment.

moment.

So I think what I wanted to do is lean into what that felt like for elongated periods of time.

And for me right now, an elongated period of time could be anything from like one day to three days.

Like that's an elongated period of time for me.

But

it means that when I do get those opportunities, I can actually be there.

Yeah.

Like, and be okay with doing nothing.

Yeah.

Because sometimes doing nothing is doing enough.

What you're saying is so true that I feel like if you are where your feet are,

then you'll always be where your feet are.

And so if you're on the red carpet and that's where you are,

then when you're off, that's where you are.

And I think a lot of us, and I've struggled with this in the past and got so much better with it.

But when we're at work, we're thinking about the vacation.

And therefore, when we're on the vacation, we're thinking about work because that inattention bleeds.

And you can't say, oh, I want to be attentive on vacation.

Right.

And I want to be inattentive at work because they both feed into each other.

And I love hearing about the athlete in you, though.

Like, even when you were talking about food and water.

Yes.

and and you are an athlete and so are all of us that demand a lot from our body and I had this really interesting thing that happened to me this week where I did not go to South Africa or London but I did my mini version of what you do but this week I went to I was in Palm Springs Vegas Boston and New York four days four work events I was only in a city for if 12 hours yeah and that's normal for me too and so i was moving and i got back at like 1 a.m or i got into bed at 1 a.m on Monday morning.

And I got up at eight to work.

Well, I got up a bit early and then at eight, I was working out.

Yeah.

And it was this really amazing feeling I had.

I got in the gym.

Yeah.

And I felt amazing after doing it.

And I was like, oh, wow, like all of this stuff works.

Like the vitamins, they work.

It really does.

Like it all works.

Like people do it for a reason.

It's a pattern as well.

It's pattern.

Yeah.

So once you get your body into, it's almost like ritual.

Your body needs a particular kind of ritual to keep it going.

It doesn't matter where you are in the world or what you do in the world.

Like as long as there are certain things that don't change,

your body will thank you for it.

You know, it doesn't matter where I am in the world.

I will always have my vitamins.

Like I have like packets that I take around with me.

Right.

And I always have my tea.

So I bring tea with me wherever I go.

It's the same tea.

So I'm never sort of thinking, oh, I have to have this.

No, that's the tea that I have.

I like ruffles chips.

So I'll always take ruffles chips with me wherever I go.

That's my sort of like guilty pleasure.

I'm going to have that.

But it means that, well, there's a particular protein bar.

So I'm i'm not searching for something else that doesn't aid me actually helps me i will always know where the gym is so i can actually go and do my long walk or my long run that way there are things that are already set in place that don't take up much room but they do serve a really great purpose it means that i can show up and be ready wherever i am and when i get back home i can always slot back in and like honestly the jet lag should be crazy but it is not i woke up this morning at like seven.

I, I have like a little one-person infrared sauna, but I also take a, I bought an infrared sauna blanket, which I take with me wherever I go, because it means that I can also heal from the inside out.

And the, the wonderful thing about that is that you can get, if I can't run, then I'll get in the sauna, or I'll do both.

But those things don't change.

And so if you can keep healthy habits that keep you moving and working and your system is still alive and alert, then those things should stay.

I think sometimes we underestimate what it is to form good habits.

Those things really help and they've really helped me a lot.

Yeah, and they take a long time to form.

Yeah.

But once you have them, then you like realize the value of them.

And then you're like, I don't even want to miss them.

That's right.

Even if I don't love doing them or even if they're hard, you're like, I know I'll feel better afterwards.

Yeah, I love that.

I heard some of you said that you've always been an overachiever.

Yeah.

And I was trying to understand, like, what's the difference between achieving and overachieving?

So I can, okay, make a song.

Good.

Do an album.

Good.

The standard album is usually maybe 10 to 13 songs.

My album has 20 songs in it.

Yeah.

Right.

You can spend six months doing something.

I'll probably spend a year doing it.

Someone says, write a book.

And you get someone to help you write the book.

I'll go, actually, I would really like to write this myself.

And this is not necessarily the healthiest.

I preface it with that.

For me, I think I'm always constantly pushing to do what's the one thing further from the norm.

Like you've done something really amazing, but how can I be more than amazing?

How can I push more?

How can I do more?

How much can I exert myself more to get more out of the thing that I'm doing?

That for me is overachieving.

And that isn't always

a healthy way to think, but for me, I think it's become a habit.

And so I've had to find healthy ways of doing that.

So, like, if I am going to do 20 songs, how am I going to make it easy for myself after that to let go of it for a second and take a break?

Or if I am going to

run three

for three hours, am I going to feed myself to replenish myself the way I need to after running those three hours?

It's the balance has to be addressed when you're doing something like that.

No, that that makes a lot of sense.

Where does that drive come from?

Where's that ambition come from?

Have you always had it since day one?

I think I have always had it.

I think it's first came

from my mum, because I think she has that sort of drive and want to achieve.

I'm raised by a single mum and she really

I'm not entirely sure how she managed to do all the things she was able to do.

This is, you know, a woman who emigrated from Nigeria, which is in her 20s, got her degree in nursing, went from nursing to being a health visitor, which is a big, massive jump, owns her own home, had her own car.

But we're not middle-class by any means, working-class people who didn't have very much.

But my mum was always pushing to make sure that she could have and that we could have.

So I think I watched and witnessed her do that on her own and sort of picked that sort of those habits, those traits up.

And then I think in my teenagehood,

after experiencing some traumatic things, that sort of also became a driving force, too, which is not necessarily the best thing because it can't sustain.

But it's sort of like, I'll show everybody that I can do this.

And that sort of drove a lot of it.

And then it didn't sustain.

Then I was like, actually, I really want to do this for myself.

And I love what I'm doing.

And if I'm going to do something, I want to do it to the very best of my abilities.

It stopped being about what I saw my mum do, which was wonderful, and stopped being about proving to people and is now about like sort of like eking out the maximum amount of joy from something

by doing the most I can do with it.

You know, by learning all of the details that I can about whatever it is I'm doing.

How do I connect the most?

And in connecting the most, it makes me be the best.

I can be in it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

I want to talk about all those transitions because they're so beautiful.

And I literally was having this conversation with a friend the other day about my mum.

Yeah.

And so my dad was less present.

It's not that he wasn't there, but he was less present when I was growing up.

And so my mum was the breadwinner of the house.

She made us breakfast in the morning, dropped us to school, me and my sister, made us a packed lunch, went to work, picked us up from school.

came home, made us dinner, went out again to work and came home.

And I still have no idea.

I have no idea how she did it.

And we always had a fresh dinner every day, a fresh lunch every day, a fresh breakfast, never had to eat leftover.

She always believed that her home-cooked meal was so important.

And I look at my mum now and I just think, like, how did you do it?

Like, and I completely agree with you.

My work ethic, I think, comes from watching my mum.

Yeah.

So I can relate to that where it's like, I saw my mum.

after doing all of that working in the evening yeah because she had to yeah and i saw her like turning up when it was really really hard yeah yeah yeah and it's amazing how that rubs off on you.

Yeah.

And how you mirror what you see at home.

Yeah.

And again, like you said, it's not that it was the healthiest.

She had to do it for survival.

It wasn't.

That's right.

It's not a choice.

Yeah.

And so we are lucky that we have the ability to slow down or have more resources or whatever it may be.

But it is amazing how much our parents' work ethic

rubs off.

Yeah.

It's like it becomes part of the DNA without you even realizing that it's part of your DNA anymore.

Yeah.

What were some of those, if you're comfortable sharing, what were some of those teenage traumas that you went through?

I don't know.

I've spoken about it.

Honestly,

when I was 16, my dad and I went through a rural separation.

He no longer wanted to be a part of my life.

And that was like a big turning point for me because I had to

figure out what that meant.

And for a long time, that sort of fueled the way I would work because you end up working to prove to someone that you're worthy of being loved or worthy of being

looked after or wanted.

And that's, that was like a big moment for me in general.

And I think that it's sort of like a form of years.

I think I was 16 when it happened.

So it really was a turning point and a seminal moment in my growth that it happened in.

And it took time to get over the hill or over the hump of that and forgive and let go and be able to do things not for that purpose, but for me.

I had to sort of really

do some thinking and working to shift that habit.

But I'm very glad I did because

it doesn't sustain you.

It can only last for so long.

And it means that the work you're doing, not on purpose, but it comes from the wrong place.

And for a while, it worked,

but then it didn't.

And

when it doesn't, you have to figure out how to make it work from something else.

And it feels a lot better to not be working from that place anymore.

There's a really beautiful system in Eastern philosophy that talks about how you can do anything from three different modes.

So you have the mode of ignorance, which means you're doing things out of fear and insecurity.

So you're doing something because you're scared.

You're doing something because

it's not survival.

It's even like more negatively motivated than that.

Then the second is the mode of passion, which is what you're saying, which is like, I'm going to prove someone wrong.

I'm going to do it for a result.

I want to do it because I want to show people.

I want to do it with that energy.

And then finally, you come to love or duty or joy or bliss.

And it's a ladder.

And what I love about what you're saying is you've taken Slash up the ladder.

Because I think sometimes we make ourselves feel bad, like, oh, if I'm doing something to prove something wrong, I shouldn't do it because that's a bad motive.

And it's, but it's like sometimes that's

the only thing that can, if that's the only motive you know, what else are you supposed to do?

Yeah, you have to use it.

You have to use it.

And if you use it to make good work, then you use it to make good work.

And I think think what we want to make sure of when we're doing that is that at some point, we're okay to allow that to be what it was and to move on from it, you know?

Because if, and everyone has their own time.

I had it my time, and someone else will be still working from that mode.

And if it's still working for them, it's still working for them.

But at some point, they will come to a realization that, oh, I don't know if this works for me anymore.

And it doesn't feel as good anymore.

So when you, and it's about noticing when it doesn't feel the way you want it to feel anymore.

And so what am I now searching for?

Am I searching for joy?

Am I searching for bliss?

Am I searching for contentment?

And if that's the case, then it has to come from somewhere else.

And so you seek to work in a different way.

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Thanks for taking a moment for that.

Now back to the discussion.

When you talk about these things, it feels like you've like held your hand through it, which is like a really beautiful visual to have, because I think what we're good at doing as humans is as soon as something doesn't serve us, we're like, oh, I've been getting it wrong for three years.

Now I'm going to get it right.

And it's like, well, no,

that served you.

Yeah.

Like even if it wasn't sustainable, as you rightly said.

it served you yeah and it was important and it mattered yeah so i think if what i'm saying is if someone's listening right now and they're like cynthia you know what i've spent the last three years trying to prove my parents wrong.

I've spent the last five years trying to prove my ex wrong.

I've spent the last seven years trying to prove my teachers wrong at school or whatever it may be.

But I know it's not sustainable.

Like I hear you are in that place.

How would you encourage people to hold their hand?

through that transition into rising, but not.

Sometimes I get the question, what would you give yourself

advice would you give your younger self?

Or what would you say to your younger self if you could meet her or is there anything you and then there's three different questions but then the the other question is would you change anything if you could go back my answer is always i would never change anything because i think that every step we take even the things that we think are wrong turns are the teachers they're the they're the way we get to where we get to you know what i mean if i was to change something i don't know that i would be sat here in front of you i think some of what we might think of missteps were the steps i was supposed to take So, if you're at home and you're watching this and you're thinking, oh, but I've been doing this and I know it's not sustainable,

but how do I move from that?

Well, you take your time, it will come.

And if that's what's feeding you right now, if that's the way, if that's the thing that gets you up out of bed and gets you energized to move forward, then keep using it.

And when you realize, oh, actually,

maybe today I'll do it from a place of,

I want to cheer someone up, that is as much of, that's love as well.

So it's just taking small decision, changing your mind bit by bit.

And don't be so hard on yourself because you've chosen other things to encourage yourself to move forward and to do well.

If you haven't hurt anyone by using the pain that you've been through, by using the hurt that you've been through, by using the rejection that you've experienced, by using the shame that you've experienced, and you've managed to transmute all of that into energy that makes you create positive work, or then you've done something really good because technically, you've given all of those people, all those things, energy in the most positive way.

Now, you get to find a way to give yourself positive energy.

So, I would say pat yourself on the back for managing to do that because it takes a lot of time and energy to do that.

And be easy.

That change in the way you move forward will come

because you want it to come.

The fact that you even are thinking about trying to work in a different way means that you're putting the idea that you can work in a different way into the universe and telling yourself, we can work in a different way.

And one day you'll work in a different way.

Right now, what you're doing isn't hurting anyone.

It costs you more than it costs anyone else, but you're also serving yourself the way you know how to.

And then you'll find another way to serve yourself and other people.

It's actually such a beautiful journey to take when you kind of, you know, and when you're going through it, it always feels like the worst because when you're trying to prove someone wrong,

you feel controlled by them.

Yeah.

You feel they still own your journey and you.

And the moment you let go, you recognize, oh, no,

I'm taking back my control and that I have ownership.

And I think that's that's what we're all looking for in life.

When you think about as humans, I was having a conversation this morning with one of my friends who's an incredible, like, you know, one of the greatest therapists on the planet.

Yeah.

And we were just having a

friendly conversation, but we were saying, I don't think humans even know what they want anymore.

Right.

Like, we think we want happiness, but do we really is that what we're looking for?

Do we want validation?

Or do we want approval?

Or do we want love?

Like, what do we want?

And I think as we're talking about right now, I'm thinking about it.

What we really want is to feel agency and autonomy and control over our lives and not feel like we're living for someone else and not feel like we're trying to, because even if you're trying to prove someone wrong, you're still living for them.

Right, that's right.

And I think we want to feel like, no, I'm living for me.

Yeah.

I love the idea that we're sort of trying to figure out what we want.

Do we want happiness?

Do we want?

But actually, the idea that we're simply seeking.

agency over our lives allows us to own all of those things.

So yes, we do want happiness, but maybe it's contentment.

But also we want to have agency over the sadness that we have.

So it's not because of someone else, but we can allow ourselves to feel something and then we can decide when we actually want to damp down that feeling, let it go.

We can let that sort of dissipate for ourselves because we have the agency over it.

We have the agency over what we choose to feel happy over.

Or if we are feeling grief, then it's our grief, not someone else's grief.

You know, that, I mean, takes time to realize.

But it's that, that I think is the ultimate goal for most of us to be able to decide, no, actually, this is my life and I'm choosing to feel and live this way for me first.

And then I can use the energy that I am saving by having agency over my life for good that will serve other people as well.

That's, I think, once we can be in true ownership of who we are and what we do for ourselves, there's more space for everyone else.

Do you think that journey was harder for you?

Because you've talked about how like you always felt like you didn't fit in.

Oh, yeah.

Like, I think I had to come to terms with the fact that I don't think I'm ever going to fit in, and why would I want to?

But I think it was when you're young, it doesn't feel as good because you really do want to fit, you do want to be a part of something.

But I think that

as I've grown and as I've learned, my

difference and the not feeling like I fit in has actually really helped me become who I want to be.

And I think if I was the same as everybody else, you wouldn't know me, you know.

And I think my not fitting has forced me to get to know myself deeply and learn about who I am and what makes me tick.

And to be honest about the things that sort of like trigger me or don't trigger me, or the things that make me tick, and the things that make that bring me joy, and the things that like energize me.

I was talking to someone yesterday, and I said to them, I can sometimes tell when I walk into a room when someone wants me there or not.

And my tendency, a terrible tendency, is to sort of almost shut down immediately because I want to be in a room where someone wants me to be in the room with them.

I want to be able to share that.

And why don't we just maybe shift that and change that?

And maybe you walk in with the energy of openness and see if you can shift the energy.

Maybe you don't expect the energy when you walk in.

Maybe try and change that energy when you get there.

And I hadn't thought of that before.

And I thought, that's something that I, maybe 10 years ago, wouldn't have been open to hearing.

Because the automatic is, well, if they don't want me here, why don't they want me here?

What's wrong if I've done something wrong?

As opposed to maybe they've just had a bad day,

maybe they woke up on the wrong side of the bed and they just don't have the energy right now.

So maybe you feed the energy into the room, and maybe that might shift things.

And

I think because I've started to learn and I've been in possession of the knowledge that my difference difference isn't something that separates but can connect wow maybe it means that using that difference in places allows the space to open up a little bit more you know i love that that's such a cool idea yeah and and i couldn't agree with it more it's so important i think we do live in a world right now that's always like

well they don't want me there or they don't like me and and we're almost just giving away our agency right right right because what you just said that statement is claiming back our agency saying Well, yeah, they may not want me there, but I want to be there.

And I'm going to walk in as if I belong.

Yeah, I didn't walk in thinking I don't want them there.

So maybe if I let them know, well, I want you here, they're like, oh, I'm wanted.

So, well, maybe we can share that space, you know?

Yeah.

There's ways to shift the conversation, shift the energy wherever you are.

And I think us as human beings, sometimes we put it on the other person to do that.

When actually, if you're confident enough about what you bring, you can actually shift and share yourself.

I've seen that so many times.

And I see it when I'm on the road.

Yeah.

I see it through, I was speaking at an event on Sunday and they had like,

what is it like when you're on set and there's food for everyone?

Oh, it was like a sharing table, like a round table.

Yeah, like just like that kind of thing.

It was like for all the, it was for the helpers, the volunteers, the speakers, like everyone to just take food.

And there was this lady there and I mentioned to her that I was plant-based.

Yeah.

And I was like, could you just walk me through the options?

Yeah.

She did it with so much enthusiasm.

Like I asked her just a really basic question.

I was nice, but I wasn't.

I was just like, hey, how are you?

I was like, hey, how's it going?

Like, I'm plant-based.

Could you help me out?

Yeah.

And I was fine.

Like, my energy was okay.

Like, maybe my energy was fine.

Like, I was neutral.

It wasn't positive.

It was negative.

It was just easy.

It was just easy.

And she just responded with such joy.

She was like a mom.

Like, I felt like she had that motherly energy of like, what do you want?

Like, this is plant-based.

And this.

And, can I get you a drink?

Yeah.

And I, and I said to, I was with a colleague and I just said, I was like, that is like the energy of just life.

And it's not, her job was not easy.

No.

She wasn't doing something that was physically easy.

No.

She wasn't doing something where it's probably a thankless task.

Like, but she was so passionate about it.

And I was, and I said to her, I was like, I hope you just know, like, you made my day.

And it was, it's always people like that that you just kind of bump into.

Yeah.

And, and I was like, we've got to become better as humans.

at noticing it yes and telling them that yeah because we would notice it if they weren't like that.

Yes.

So if she had responded to me and be like, oh, yes, over there.

Yeah.

Then you would notice that.

I would have been a strop, right?

I'd be like, I probably wouldn't, but I know a few years ago.

But it's the thing that you would like, it would, you take it with you.

Yeah, you take it with you.

You're like, oh, God, why are they so like, what's wrong with?

Right.

And we all carry that.

But when someone does something amazing, you kind of take it for granted and you go, oh, yeah, of course, they're just being nice.

The thing is, I think we sometimes take for granted that that kind of energy is infectious.

It is.

Truly.

Yeah.

You know, it's the simple sort of act of smiling at someone in the street, right?

That smile will pass on.

It'll go from one person to another person to another person because you don't know who you're smiling at.

And if that person, if you're smiling at someone who's had a bit of a rough day and they go, oh, someone's noticed me and they smiled at me.

Well, you'll remember that person smiled at me and then you might smile and that smile might pass on to someone else and you don't know who you're smiling at, how far that smile goes.

And what we are not very good at is...

telling other people, hey, this person smiled at me in the street and it was really sweet and I don't know who they were, but it was really lovely because that energy is also infectious.

Yes.

What we normally do is that she like she bumps into me, and I don't know why, but like she, or he said that, and it wasn't really nice that we passed that energy on.

Instead of the energy that brightens, we are better at sort of sharing the energy that doesn't.

And as humans who have to share a planet, we should probably get better at sharing what's bright.

Because yes, we we're not always going to go through great times but it's the little things that can move us from a place of darkness to a place of light yeah i love that have you have you heard of something called the frequency illusion so the frequency illusion is this idea it's the idea of like if i'm thinking about buying a red car yes i now see red cars everywhere yeah or like if i learned a new word and now i hear everyone saying that word or whatever it may be and so the frequency illusion is when you start to notice something yeah you start to notice it more.

Yes.

And we think that the world suddenly has more red cars or the world suddenly is more intellectual because they're using this word.

The truth is the world hasn't changed.

You just notice it more.

That's right.

And the brain is wired to do that.

And what you just pointed out is that it's not about, this isn't positive thinking and this is not like toxic positivity.

What it is, is whatever I notice, I'm going to notice more of it.

Right.

So if I only notice when people frown and people kind of, you know, push me aside or people don't open the door, I'm going to notice that more and more and more.

But if I notice the smile on the street, if I notice the nice gesture from the lunch lady, if I notice that, then all of a sudden that's how I start to see things.

And it's not faking it.

It's not like pretending that the world's all roses and rainbows and all that kind of stuff.

But it's the idea that...

Our brain is just wired to notice.

And whatever you notice, you'll see more of.

I want to talk about your new album.

There's no mask, there's no veil.

It's this true, transparent

communication.

The first time I listened to it, because I was lucky enough to get an early one for this, I

had my eyes closed the whole time.

And I just sat and I listened to it in order as it was.

I didn't skip.

I didn't need to.

And

it really was just this.

It really felt like a divine experience.

Like it was very...

I like music and I love music, but it was very different.

And it was different because it felt familiar to my soul.

Yeah.

And that's why when I was messaging you about it last night before you were coming, I was like, it was divine.

It was transcendent because it was.

It just, it felt otherworldly in the experience, but then felt really familiar and human.

And I've got so many questions about it, but I want to let you, you felt, I felt like there was something you were going to say about that.

I want to let you know.

Yeah, I think I knew when I was going into it that I wanted to make something that felt like connective tissue to who I was.

And part of me was deeply petrified to write this album just because I knew it was going to be so transparent and really human in the subjects and just extremely truthful.

But I didn't really know how else to write it.

So I just sort of had to let go and just write.

And I think the other worldliness may be in the composition of things, but even that was a really human experience.

It wasn't, I didn't make any vocal arrangements.

There were no written, there's no written music.

I would do it as I was going along and I would know what I wanted.

And then I would sort of start with a vocal pad.

And I would start with a line.

And that line would, I'd repeat the line and we'd create a stack.

And then over that stack, I would just create another line.

And there was no leaving the booth to write what the next line was.

As a line happened, I would think of another line.

And sometimes I would.

distract myself because the line was creating itself as I was singing the line before and and that would go on and go on and go on until there was nothing left.

So, for me, it really was an experience of pouring all of myself into it every single time.

And I would say to my producer and Will, who's also the engineer on it and was co-writing with me, that it was always, it always felt really emotional when I would do the vocal pads.

I always felt deeply connected to the music because it was the rawest form of vocalizing and making music that I could think of without any real

structure necessarily.

I just knew the emotion that I wanted, and that's what I would then write over.

A lot of these songs just started with a vocal pad and a melody, and that's what would happen.

Yeah.

Wow.

Has that always been your process, or was that a new discovery?

I think I've always wanted it to be my process, but I don't think until now I've been brave enough to do it that way.

I've never done it like this before, and it felt so easy to do.

It felt like a real natural way of exercising the music that I had in myself.

Yeah.

And what did you want people to feel throughout it?

What was you were telling me earlier about how every song, even the order and the arc, was structured.

Yeah.

What was the kind of emotional journey you wanted people to go on?

At the beginning,

it really is about heartbreak and

love and loss, but it's it's also in a way about

me

breaking someone's heart or what we put on ourselves as people in relationship, the responsibility we put on ourselves sometimes when we're in relationship, but when it's not doesn't feel right, when it's not right.

And we

find it hard to disconnect from those relationships.

And we find it hard to speak about what we're actually feeling when we're in them.

And I think I wanted people to be okay with admitting when they're in the wrong space, when it isn't right anymore, when you have to go.

And also that base feeling of it's your fault as well, you know, because sometimes we feel a lot of guilt for saying that.

But because our relationships are made of two, three, however many people are in your relationship, but it's never it's not one-sided.

Relationships are made of the people that are in them.

And what happens within those relationships are made of the people within them, even when you don't think they are.

If you dig deep enough, you'll find that you both have responsibility in there.

And so I think there was sort of like the assuming of responsibility and also the willingness to be like, also your responsibility is this too.

This is how I felt.

But also I understand that I made you feel that way.

And then I wanted people to know that that is

in that next section, there's the discovery of something new, something passionate within yourself and with another person and how human that is.

Because sometimes we get very ashamed of talking about passion and desire.

And I wanted to talk about that.

And I think passion and desire aren't necessarily things that people associate me with,

but they are also very human experiences, which I have experienced as someone who's, you know, in her late 30s.

You know, I think it's important for people to know that that is a part of me.

And that third section is about when your feet touch the ground, after all the desire and the passion and the headiness of what that can be, that when your feet touch the ground, you fall in love

for real.

That it isn't just about the other person, but it really is with you as well, to fall in love again

with who you are.

That sometimes within our relationships, we can lose ourselves a little bit.

But then eventually, if you want, you can come back to yourself.

And that fourth section is about forgiveness, which is what this album is called.

It is about forgiving the person you were with, the person that you were,

and the person you may have become because of it, forgiving the mistakes that you might have made

because they lead to this place.

And I guess in the grand scheme of things, it is really about forgiving yourself

and allowing the fact that your human experiences are just that the experiences we have as human beings that that usher us through our lives but things i've been through

have made me really sort of like look back on

how i've dealt with certain situations and

sometimes I've not necessarily been my best self, but that doesn't mean that I'm not a good human being.

And I think sometimes we mistake not not being our best selves with being a bad human being.

And I think sometimes we have to say that that's not the same thing and that we can forgive ourselves for not being our best selves because we want to be good human beings.

Even just listening to you explain that,

I mean, I had so many thoughts that went through my mind.

I was just thinking about how it's so common for us to

start hating ourselves and being harsh on ourselves

when

the situation is so complex.

But almost our simple answer is, I'm the problem.

It's like if someone breaks up with us, we think, I'm the problem.

I'm the weak one.

It's over.

If we choose to end something,

we still blame ourselves.

Yeah, that's right.

If you're someone who's self-reflective enough, you still blame yourself.

And you go, well, I messed up.

I don't deserve love.

Maybe I'll never get it.

And I had a message recently from a friend who was going through a breakup and they were just like, I'm breaking up because I don't think this helps me grow anymore.

It's not even like there's anything wrong with it.

Yeah, it's just like it's not right for me.

But they were like, I'm just feeling guilty.

Yeah.

And they're like, I also feel guilty because obviously the other person feels bad and I can't even give them a real answer to it because there isn't.

It's just a feeling.

And I, and it is so interesting how forgiveness is such

the topic.

I'm thinking about our audience right now.

One thing I've been trying to ask people to help people is,

have you ever been heartbroken?

Yeah.

And

what was the process or what was the one thing that helped you live through that?

Because I think so many of our audience are in that position.

They come to me for that a lot.

What was helpful to you?

I have definitely been heartbroken in separate occasions.

And because this happened in different parts of my life, I reacted in different ways.

Earlier on, I really needed my friends.

I really needed people around me to just surround me with love.

And for me, music has always been the balm.

So I would listen and I would sort of like try to feed myself with the things that would give me good energy.

And for me, that sometimes is like running, working out and eating good food, speaking to good people, having good experiences, creating newer memories on my own.

And that really was the thing that would help me with heartbreak, but also like dealing with the fact that I felt heartbroken and admitting, oh, this broke my heart.

And

then

later on, it really was about, I love a conversation.

I like real closure.

So I want to have like an actual, real conversation.

And I've always, not necessarily always, but I tried to, in most of the relationships that have, that have ended, and it's not me ending them, have given an opportunity for conversation, like to talk about it and i've tried to be as honest and i've asked the person to be honest about what it is that has happened whether or not that's taken not always and then sometimes it's taken sort of later on fine but it's really i think if you can have your conversation have the conversation and and try to end it as amicably as you possibly can and if you can't then i know this sounds really strange but have the conversation but just not with that person.

Like, what would that conversation in your head be?

How would you have had that conversation?

What would you have said if you had the opportunity to sit in front of someone, say, hey, this really hurt my feelings?

And

this is where I am with this right now.

And I'm really finding it hard to deal with, or my heart's broken, and I need it to heal.

And

have those conversations, write those feelings down.

The one thing you cannot do is keep.

a hold of that and swallow the feeling and never let it out because I think it grows, it becomes something else.

A heartbreak that isn't shared, heartbreak that isn't exorcised, I think becomes resentment and becomes sour, you know, because heartbreak's a real emotion.

It's actually actually strangely quite a lovely, beautiful emotion.

It means you're alive.

If you have a heart to break, it means your heart is beating.

So it's not a bad emotion.

However, if you harbor it and never let it go and never share it, just like you share love, just like you share happiness and you share joy,

then it becomes something else.

We don't keep joy to ourselves.

We can't.

It's impossible to.

It sort of comes out of us, whether we like it or not.

We don't keep love to ourselves.

We want to give out love.

We want to share love because that only multiplies.

If we keep heartbreak to ourselves, it becomes something else.

It mutates, metastasizes, and it sticks to us.

And what what that does is stops us from being able to, if you don't mend your heart, it can't be whole again for something else.

And I'm assuming that anyone who has their heart broken wants their heart to be whole again so that they can share their heart with someone else again.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that.

That really resonated, that idea of how

emotions are not meant to be held on to.

Right.

And the sad and the tough ones are the only ones that we do, like we hold on.

Hold on to tightly.

And if there was someone who was feeling like, oh my God, there's only this much joy in the world.

I'm going to hold on to it, which we do sometimes as well.

But we're like, oh, no, no, I'm going to be really scarce about joy.

We know that doesn't work easily because it disappears.

It goes away.

And yeah, it's so interesting that idea of why we hold on to the hard emotions

and don't hold on to the beautiful ones.

And

it limits us.

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Now let's dive back in.

When I'm thinking about your album and that idea of what you just said of

recognizing that we can forgive ourselves for ways in which we want to be better.

Yeah.

But that doesn't doesn't make us a bad person.

Yeah.

I think you're so right that as humans, we've got good at making it this binary black and white choice of I'm either a good person or I'm a bad person.

Right.

And actually, I've seen people with good intentions do more bad

because they're trying so hard to be good people.

To be a good person.

Yeah.

Rather than taking that, like I remember a guy that I was mentoring a while ago, he was saying like, oh, I don't want to break up with her because it will hurt her.

And I was like, but you're hurting yourself and you're hurting her for longer because you don't want to be seen as a bad person.

Right.

So you'd rather be seen as a good guy.

Yeah.

Hurt her long term and hurt yourself.

And by the way, we all go through this.

Yeah.

You don't want to let people down.

And so it's like, how, how did you reconcile those two things?

Because I think it's a very human thing.

So like, we don't want to let people down.

No.

We want people to be happy.

Yeah.

We don't want to break someone's heart.

But the reality is

that is how the way things go.

I think in the long term, so

when I had broken up with someone, when it was my choice to break up with someone, I saw very clearly that we weren't growing together anymore and that we weren't right for one another anymore.

And that us being together would actually be to the detriment of the both of us.

If I'm in something that

I'm miserable in, that I'm not happy in, then the the likelihood is that is going to

grow within the relationship, that I'm going to continue to be miserable and that person is also going to experience the most miserable version of myself.

And that isn't good for anyone because I'm not fertile ground for happiness if I'm doing that.

which means it removes the ability for the other person also to be in a relationship that's happy.

And I would rather remove myself from the situation so that they can go on and find whoever it is that they're meant to be with.

Because we will find the people that we're meant to be with, and maybe we're meant to be with someone for a season, and then we move on and find the person that we're meant to be with for life.

Or maybe we're meant to be with several people for a season, and that's what we're meant to do, or we're meant to learn from the people that we're with to become the people that we're supposed to be before we end up in the relationship we're supposed to end up in.

And I just knew that I couldn't continue to pretend to be something I wasn't within a relationship that wasn't, it wasn't feeding me in the way I needed it to.

And because of that, I knew it wasn't going to be feeding the other person.

Yeah, that resonates so strongly.

It's really hard, though.

It is, it is.

You feel like such a letdown for doing it.

You feel, I hate to use this word, but you feel like a villain for doing it, for hurting someone.

But some sometimes, and this may be

a hard thing to say, but sometimes hurting someone actually aids the growth of another person.

When we experience hurt, we are forced to grow.

Again, it is another human emotion that we have to experience as we grow because it teaches us about what we are, how to react or how to soothe, how to

use the hurt to turn it into something else, right?

We're all going to be hurt at some point in our lives.

That is not something that we can prevent.

We're all going to hurt someone in our lives.

That's also something we cannot prevent.

We are also always going to, we are all going to be hurt ourselves in general.

It's not going to, that's something we can't prevent.

And it's not something we run headlong into.

But when it presents itself, we also have to be brave enough to be the people that either experience it or serve it.

Not vindictively, not because we want to, but because it's sometimes necessary

to begin again.

Yeah, I love what you just said there, that sometimes we hurt people

and sometimes people hurt us.

And then sometimes we hurt ourselves.

And all of that

you can't prevent.

That's going to happen in the natural flow of life.

And all we can learn to do is those people that we hurt.

Yeah.

try to help in the best way possible and recognize that like I'm thinking about as you're talking about it whenever I've if I've broken up with someone,

there's no part of me that was excited about it or happy about it or felt good about it.

Not only because I believe I'm a good person and want to be a good person, but because I don't like causing anyone pain.

But it made me, what it changed in me was it made me more responsible in the future of how I was with someone and how I conducted myself and thought about a relationship.

When I was a teenager, probably fell too quick.

Probably like, you know, was all in, like didn't really recognize what that was.

And as I grew up, it was like, no, okay, now I understand.

I need to slow things down.

Like, one of the things I say to so many people is don't fall in love too fast.

Right.

Because when you fall in love too fast, that's when love is blind.

Right.

That's when you fall.

You haven't learnt the person yet.

And you haven't really understood.

Like you understand their.

You understand what they like, but you don't really know anything about them beyond that.

You understand very little information about them.

But it's such a hard process to forgive ourselves for breaking someone's heart and to forgive ourselves for when someone breaks our heart.

Right.

Because if someone breaks, why didn't I see?

How comes I didn't know?

All of those things.

All of those things.

Sometimes you won't see.

And also, sometimes it's nothing to do with you.

Sometimes it's not you.

It's that the other person needs something else.

And that's okay.

And sometimes it might be the other way around.

Sometimes it isn't them.

You need something else.

That's actually it.

Yeah.

That's it.

Like that, that, what you just said there, that is actually what it is.

That when you're breaking up with them, it's actually all to do with you.

And when they broke up with you, it was all to do with them.

And the problem is in both those situations, we make it all about us.

It's our fault.

We messed up.

Right, right, right.

You know, or we blame it on them as well.

Yeah, no, it's fascinating.

There was a couple of lyrics from the album that I just...

I had to talk about.

So this is from the song that's already out replay.

Yes.

And I'm going to, I should let you do this, but I'll do it anyway to remind you.

I'm the best overachiever.

There's not anyone like me.

And you'd think that was a good thing till you're told that's not healthy.

You spend every waking hour working hard to write your will, patiently waiting for validation till you're empty and unfulfilled.

So powerful.

I love it.

It's even just reading it.

It's like, and then getting to hear you sing it.

The part that I was really, that really stood out to me because I think so many people struggle with it today is this waiting for validation.

There's such a

we all want to be validated.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

Yeah.

What is the right type of validation to crave and what's the unhealthy validation to crave?

I don't even know because I think all of it is healthy and all of it is unhealthy, to be honest, because the only

real validation that matters is what you feel about yourself on the inside

once you've done something.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Like, because you're never really going to please everybody.

Everyone is seeing you objectively.

They are, they have their own idea of who you are and what you've been through and the type of human being you are and the type of experiences you have.

They haven't lived your experience.

So all they have is what you tell them, right?

All they have is what they, what they see of you.

And so...

as wonderful as it is when people are lovely and they say complimentary things and they you know love the musical there's also the other side that isn't that and that doesn't and isn't kind and and so if we don't take them in equal measure, then we're suggesting that one is more important than the other.

But both come from people who are experiencing you in the exact same way, right?

So, why wouldn't you take the bad and the good in equal measure?

But it doesn't feel good to take the bad in equal measure as the good, right?

Yeah, so we make this more important than this.

So, I honestly think that I spent a lot of my life

trying

to

do things.

Like, you know, I was talking about my dad and what that felt like.

And I was trying to prove to him that I was lovable.

And, you know, in the beginning of this, I would do my work, and I want, you know, whether it be social media or whether it would be reviews, and you want the good reviews, and you want people to say really nice things, you want people who you've never met to love you.

And that is the driving force behind the work.

And in the end, it doesn't serve you at all.

It's wonderful.

It's lovely to hear it.

But if you don't feel that way about yourself, if you don't believe in the work you're doing, if you don't love the skin that you're in, the work that comes from you, the things that you get to say, the people you get to meet, if you don't love that work,

none of the comments, none of the lovely compliments, none of the making someone finally fall in love with you matters.

What it does is come to an empty shell.

You have to learn how to fill up yourself

because that's what fills you.

That's what feels actually good.

That's what actually feels good.

Like what is, what does this work?

How does this work serve you in your life?

Does it serve other people?

And I also think that in doing of work, sometimes we think that it's only, it is about us, but it's a cyclical thing.

I think if you can do the best you can do in your work, if you can really pour yourself into the work in the right way that feels authentic to who you are, then you can actually serve that work to other people, that you can actually be of service to other people.

And I really, I talk about this when it comes to music and it comes to teaching, when it comes to singing.

It's less about me getting a lot of big applause at the end of a song.

That is lovely, but that couldn't matter less than actually

looking at someone's eyes in the audience and knowing that I've connected with them, knowing that this song means the world to this person, that this song is an expression of what they also might be feeling, that my being able to sing something in a way that connects with someone else, that allows them to then process something that they've also been through, that to me is what I love.

That for me is...

That's the question.

You answered that.

That's actually the best validation.

It's not actually what people say.

It's what I can witness someone feeling to me that is the best validation for me.

I don't have to wait for that validation.

That's almost instant.

It happens when I speak to someone, when I sing to someone.

A person can't hide how they feel, you know, even though we think we can, we actually cannot.

It shows up in the small, minute movements in our body.

It shows up in our faces.

It shows up in how we express.

It shows up in how open we are when we're speaking to a person.

More than a person saying, oh my God, that was amazing, which is lovely.

But actually, I'm not necessarily seeking a hundred thank yous and a hundred your amazings.

I'm not looking for that.

I'm actually looking for how deeply can I connect with people?

How much can I make people feel?

Does this mean that someone is going to go and figure out something in their relationships with someone?

Does this mean that they're going to finally have a conversation with that person that they haven't spoken to for years because they've been harboring a feeling that they haven't yet faced.

If that is what comes of my music, my work, teaching, whatever it is, then that's the validation I want, right?

But what that lyric speaks about is the other sort that you're sort of waiting for people to say that you're amazing.

You're waiting for people to send, like give you like all of the outward input that you can take.

But eventually,

it's that old weird thing where you see a hundred lovely messages and you see that one message that isn't great and everything comes tumbling down because it isn't based on anything.

There's no foundation for it, right?

Yeah, yeah.

But if you can connect with that one person, those 10 people, those 15 people in the audience,

when their tears are falling, and you can hear it.

And there's something really wonderful about when it's quiet, and you hear that one person go,

you go, Okay, that person's connected, and they're feeling something.

You can make people feel,

then that's the the validation we want yeah mic drop oh yeah that yeah and i and i feel that yeah you know like you i i feel that and as i was listening to you i was thinking sometimes when i'm speaking to a large group or leading a meditation for like maybe sometimes i've been fortunate enough to lead meditations for like five ten thousand

twenty thirty thousand people maybe even more in one time And I almost in my mind, when I'm leading it, I'll go back to when there were just 10 10 people in the room.

And when I used to lead meditations for five people in the room, because that's also

what we all want to feel.

Like we're all looking for intimacy

deeply.

That's what we're seeking

is intimacy.

And we go to these big group gatherings to feel, and that's what music does for people, is it makes us feel intimate with the person standing next to us because we have a shared experience.

And I feel intimate with the person singing it because I feel a shared experience.

And that's what we're all seeking: this intimacy in this mass.

Yeah, we're still looking for this moment where I just caught a glimpse of even someone in the audience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We both kind of know we both felt what we just heard.

Yeah.

And it's really interesting to me that we've confused validation with love.

Yeah.

We've confused attention with affection.

We've confused praise with power

and purity.

Yeah.

And over here, we're really seeking intimacy, but we'll trade it for adulation and adoration,

everything else that doesn't quite hit the spot.

And as I was listening to you, I love that for you as your definition.

And I think that's what's so important is having your definition of what validation matters to you.

Because otherwise, you'll constantly be pulled and pushed

by everything that comes and you'll run after it wherever it's delivered.

Whereas you're really clear like i do love the applause of course and so do i i'm the same as you

i love it of course it is but like when yesterday when i was flying home and one of the air stewards came up to me and was just like don't stop doing what you're doing it really makes a difference i was just like it's the best thing in the world it's so wonderful because because you know that you have affected a person.

It isn't just face value.

Like you have, I use the word infiltrated their nervous system, right?

You're a part of how they now move through their days.

Something about what you said has affected the way they now behave towards other people and behave in their lives.

And that is really, really special.

Like that's actually the core of what we're supposed to be doing as human beings, not even just in my field or your field, but as human beings, what we want to be able to do is give a person

something that they can take away with them into their own lives.

If we can do that, for me,

beyond anything.

Yeah, yeah, it's so true.

And I think like whether you're a musician, whether you're a creator, whether you're an author, whether you're an entrepreneur making a prod.

If you look at your comment section or your reviews, you'll see people pouring their heart out who you've impacted.

But the mind just wants the next million followers or the next yeah 10k in revenue or whatever it is that you're working towards and like you missed the family there's a human who took the time to be like you changed something for me yeah you know so i i don't know i've been thinking about as you were speaking please

something came up for me when you were talking about intimacy um there's a concert hall that i performed in i but it was in the round

and which means that the stage is sort of

in the centre, but still in cross-arch, which means you have a front of the stage and then it comes back.

But behind you, there are people seated watching from behind.

So they have your head and your back for most of it.

And then there are people sitting in front in the round.

And

I remember, and

I would always do this, whether we like it or not, we want to be seen.

So what I would try to do when I'm in those theatres is before we really launch into the whole concert, I would always sing a portion of the music to the people who would normally just get the back of my head.

Because what that says is, I see you as well.

That's a form of intimacy to go, yes, I see you, but I also know that there are people who are behind me who are, who want to be a part of this as much as you.

And they're only getting my, the back of my head and the back of my shoulders, and they're not getting the front of me, which is, you know, our heart is caged.

This is the thing I think of, our heart is in our, in our rib cage and within all of that,

but it's in the front.

And they get the back.

So you kind of want to make sure that they get your heart too.

They get to see the front of you where your heart is placed,

right?

It's here, but this is where we, that's where we,

in our, like in imaginations,

this is where it is.

So you turn to them and you're open.

So you say, hey, I see you and I can see you here.

And I know that you're getting the back of my head, but I'm not going to leave you out.

I want you to be a part of this intimate experience that we're having together.

And I feel like within this music, that's kind of what I want to do.

Like we're in the round.

And I think a lot of people have had the back of my head and a lot of people have had

the back of my shoulders and the back of me.

And I really want for this album to be like me turning around and going, hey,

I see you and I want you to see my heart too as well.

Cause I know that there's a large amount of people who've seen me and my heart, but there are some people who don't know that part of me and they see the pretty dresses and they see me say nice things and all those things, but I want them to get the front of me too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You did that in the album.

Like it comes across.

Thank you.

It's such an invitation

into that intimate space for yourself for them yeah and that's why i think like people are going to listen to this whether they've just gone through a breakup or a divorce they're going to listen to this if they're just falling in love yeah they're going to listen to this i want yeah they're going to listen to this album if they're on their own journey they're going to listen to this album with their friends like i feel like it's one of those albums that you're going to experience yeah not just listen to yeah not just have on in the background and yeah it's it's it's so special a couple more things i wanted to ask you about there was another lyric yeah from replay as well.

And you were mentioning it just there.

It was

this, and it's so powerful.

And I'm a big fan of

reading lyrics.

This album is that.

Yeah, there's such a light, because it's such mastery as well.

For even anyone who loves poetry and writing, and it's just, but you go.

Daddy trauma has emasculated all my common sense.

So I'm looking through the lens of an impending abandonment.

All the voices in my head, so I'm not worth the time time you spent.

So I search for an escape before you notice your mistake.

And I mean, I mean, it's just beautiful to even read off the page.

Like, it's such a the part that struck out to me there was the

so I'm looking through the lens of an impending abandonment.

And I was like, goes back to what you were just saying now, like people feel that.

Yeah.

People feel really abandoned by themselves, too.

It's also

about

feeling abandoned and then taking that into everything you go into.

And so, even now, sometimes I expect people to leave.

So, what the way I move, the way I work, I don't trust people quickly.

I am expecting them to go away.

It's sort of like if I can set myself up to know that I'm going to be abandoned, then I can't be hurt when it happens.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

And so what I've had to do over time is

start to trust people

and to not tart everything with the brush of abandonment.

If a person has to leave, a person has to leave.

That's okay.

They're not abandoning, they're simply leaving, you know.

And that isn't to say that the experience of feeling abandoned isn't real, but it is also to say that that experience of abandonment isn't always what happens.

And

for a really long time, I couldn't tell the difference.

And so every time

a friend left or I broke up with a person or a relationship didn't quite work, it felt like a massive

moment of abandonment.

It felt like the floor was taken out from underneath me.

And it's taken a long time to get to a point where I can trust that that's not the case.

And so what that would do is stop me from

saying how I really felt in a situation because I didn't want them to go away.

Yeah, wow.

You know, like if I'm, if I'm not happy with something, then I wouldn't say

because I don't want them to have a reason to leave, you know?

Or if I didn't want something, then I wouldn't say I don't want something because I was afraid that they would leave.

Right.

And unfortunately, that leads sometimes to really dangerous situations because you don't speak up.

And I've had to learn to be

okay with the idea that if someone leaves, they are meant to.

And if they're meant to come back, they will.

Right?

But sometimes we're very afraid to chance it.

And we're very afraid to let a person go.

We are afraid to let a person go.

And we need to be okay with letting people go because they have their own journey as well.

We don't know what path people are walking on when they walk into our lives.

We might just be a stepping stone in their path, just like stepping stones are in their life.

And they might just be a stepping stone in our lives as we keep moving forward.

But if we're not confident or comfortable enough to let that be a stepping stone to move on to the next one,

we won't go anywhere.

We're stuck.

Would you say that's the hardest emotion you've ever had to face and deal with?

Or has it been harder?

I think that

has been because it's shown up in many different ways for different people for me.

And I think it's always, that's always been the root emotion that makes other emotions amplified.

Feeling abandoned makes hurt feel a lot bigger than

it should, or feeling abandoned makes loss feel bigger than that.

So it's like silly things like if a friend, if I call a friend and I don't, this has happened before, a friend of mine, and it was just their process.

She would

call or I would call, she would pick up, we would have the most amazing

conversation and we would have like the connection would be right back where we were before and it would be lovely.

And then I would call maybe a month later and she wouldn't pick up or and I wouldn't see her for another month or two.

And I would take it so personally for me, it would be like she's left me again.

But actually, it was just her process.

Sometimes she would go and sort of shield herself and grow herself back and put herself back together.

And then she would appear again.

And I had to learn that that is just the way she

exists.

And I had to be okay with her way of existing.

And once I learned that that's her way of existing, it meant that I could welcome her with open arms and I wouldn't be so upset when she was gone.

That I knew that she was just putting herself back together again and I could just send a little message of, How are you?

And I'm thinking of you and I'm gonna call you in a couple of weeks.

And if you're around, I'm okay for a chat and not expect anything.

So that when something did come back, it was joyous, it was really wonderful.

When that feeling of abandonment was the

main focus,

it felt really bad when she went away.

And it's the same, and it had been the same in different relationships.

When they

had decided that they wanted to move on, or when they it just felt like such a wound.

And that is, that is not sustainable.

You can't live like that.

You can't live believing that everyone is abandoning you

because it makes for a really lonely existence.

It means that you build up a wall

of protection to stop yourself from really being connected to anyone.

Yeah, even if you're surrounded by loads of people.

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And back to our episode.

You know, you've been dedicated to your art for so many years.

And I feel like Wicked was like this global phenomenon.

Yeah.

Right.

And you've been recognized and won awards and done phenomenal work.

But Wicked was just,

at least from the outside of the world.

Yeah, that's right.

It felt different.

Like, how did that change your feeling of fitting in and belonging?

And because you're part of something bigger.

How do you make sense of that?

What's really interesting is that I think I've really been able to lean into who I am.

And what I noticed is that there are so many people in the world who feel really different.

And because I got to do this piece that put me in front of many people, it meant that there are other people who felt like they were invisible who finally felt visible again.

And that has been something that's really wonderful to experience, to bump into people who didn't feel like they fit.

Women specifically who have spoken to me about either women who have suffered cancer and have been through chemotherapy and lost their hair, and said, And I'm not ill, my hair is a choice.

I shaved it first because of the film, and then I loved what it did to me.

It meant that I really could just see my face and me.

And we know that there's always a massive conversation around hair and what it does, and how long someone's hair is, or how smooth, or how straight, or whatever that is, or how curly, whatever.

And I had made a choice to not have it at all.

And the amount of women who have suffered alipacia, suffered, have been through cancer and survived, but now have to wear wigs or don't wear wigs or have been sort of shy about going without

have reached out and been like, I saw you rocking no hair and now I feel really confident about walking around with no hair and being bald and I feel really strong about it.

And that's been a huge eye-opener that there are so many people who feel like they don't belong, but seeing one person who's very different from the norm and, you know, rocks what they rock and are who they are,

sort of put out a little bit of permission to also be who you are.

And I think that for me was a real crux of this.

There are so many people trying to just discover themselves and they just need to see it on someone else to also decide, oh, I can just be.

That's been wonderful.

The amount of eyes on you is really new.

For me, I'm still adjusting to it.

And while I have, I'm really grateful for the platform that has been given to me because of it, it's still a new thing.

It's new to

be heard all the time.

It's new to...

to be seen all the time.

It's new to see,

you know, walk through an airport, think that you're anonymous and not be anonymous at all.

You know what I mean even when you have no makeup on and it's like who you are and that's a norm for me to walk through an airport no makeup no nothing sort of hat on just like ready to go but not be recognized but when you are recognized it's a new that's very new for me it's also really wonderful because people are so excited by it and so excited by these characters and so excited by the people who play the characters.

That's also new.

Before I could play a character and they would recognize the character, but not necessarily recognize me from the character.

Now people know me and the character, which is a new thing also, that they are able to separate the person, Alphabur, who I played, and me, Cynthia.

That's also a new thing,

which is lovely, because it means that I guess I've made an impression as me as well as an impression as the character, which is really lovely.

It's nice to be able to...

It's nice to say people have welcomed me into their homes.

I love that.

Well, well, I think Radi sent you that little clip of my niece calls me Alphaba and she thinks she's Glinda and she just made this up.

Oh my god.

And so literally every voice note to me is she calls me Alphaba.

And now I'm Alphabet to her.

And so when Radi told her that we know the real Alphabet, she just couldn't believe it.

But it's one of those things of like just

It meant so much.

Like I feel like you and Ariana like meant so much more than a movie to people.

It felt that yes people came to see the movie and people loved what the movie said but I spoke to someone who's who said that they a couple of parents actually who said that this movie has given them the opportunity to have conversations with their kids and I'm talking about like seven year olds six year olds to talk about

playground politics and being different and being excluded and what that feels like and the ownership over oneself and deciding to be who you are against all odds and having those conversations between adult and kid and how difficult that can be when there's when there's nothing to bring that conversation up.

But because of this movie, it's meant that people can have those conversations, you know?

And then people our age who are leaning more into their friendships, leaning more into their relationships that they have that can be difficult, but they can pour more energy into them.

And then leaning more into discovering who they are as people.

And even though it can be scary to be who you are meant to be, to show up as yourself, it's equally as rewarding.

And those conversations that this has sort of brought to life is blown my mind.

And it means something different to every single person.

You think it's possible, but when you see it, it's beyond.

It's just beyond.

Yeah.

And I think the point you were making about how people accepted.

Alphabet accepted you.

Yeah.

I think that is because of how you showed up through all of the, both you and Arrayana, through all the press.

Yeah.

It's almost like you didn't both show up as movie stars.

You showed up as friends.

And people.

You stood up as people and you felt that.

And I think that's what everyone felt, where it was like, oh, they didn't show up as two people who are promoting a movie.

They showed up as themselves.

And of course, we all love the movie and want to watch the movie and all the rest of it.

But it was very different to what people have been exposed to before.

Yeah, yeah.

That you don't usually.

I don't even think we did that on purpose.

I think that's just

who we are.

You know, I think I don't know that I said to myself, well, I'm going to come to these Q ⁇ As and I'm going to just talk about this and that.

I think I just.

There's something wonderful that exhaustion does to you, where the veil sort of falls away.

And we had been, we were already exhausted before we began the press store because we'd worked so long.

We'd been working so long on it.

And we'd worked really hard.

We didn't really have much of a time away from the film before we began, you know, sharing it with people.

We finished the film in February and we're on the road basically from June.

So that's not a long time.

And between that time, we also were working on other things.

So we hadn't actually stopped.

So by the time we were in front of everybody, there was no energy to put up pretenses.

We just were who we were.

And there's something wonderful about

having only the energy to exist in yourself, in front of people.

And once you begin that way, it doesn't go in the other direction.

It just amplifies.

And so we become, you just watched us become more and more and more of ourselves.

And all the tears that you saw were very, very real because the experience was still very raw.

We only just had left it in February.

That was the last time I took off the green.

I hadn't completely put her down yet.

I was still sort of decompressing and letting her go and putting myself back together in front of people.

That's what was happening.

And then we were having to talk about our characters and talk about the experience.

And it was only a month or two away, and that's sort of how it was.

And then, because we're having these constant conversations, we're also re-learning and re-remembering and figuring things out and learning new things.

There are things that I didn't know that she was experiencing that I learned on the spot, and there are things that I was experiencing that she was learning on the spot, and the things that our director was experiencing that we had just realized.

So we were learning new things in real time in front of everybody, but we weren't pretending that it was old hat to us.

We were realizing, oh my god, I didn't know I didn't know that.

That's a new thing to learn.

I think hopefully, we'll make people do that more when you're in this sort of business.

And I was speaking to someone about this: the tendency is to put up the wall and try to protect yourself.

And

actually,

the most wonderful thing you can give anyone who's watching is

a little bit of yourself and

the revelation that it is a human experience.

All of the things that it looks fancy when you're running around and you're in the pretty dresses, but when you're on a set, it's as human and as real as you can possibly make it.

You're up early, you're exhausted every day, the makeup is coming on and off, and there's someone, you know, you're meeting loads of different people who you've only met for the first time on day one, and then you've got to perform that next day.

It's a very vulnerable, like very open experience, and you have to sort of learn to get used to that quite quickly.

And then, once you are used to that, you then make family with people, and you'll get to know everyone's tells, and you get to know everyone's sort of like the way people tick.

Well, she's really tired today.

I'm going to bring her a cookie.

She likes chocolate chip cookies, and I know that will make her happy.

Or he actually is vegan, so he'll only have the double chocolate, which is, you know, and he loves raisin and oat, and that's his favorite thing.

But don't put butter in it because he actually really doesn't like that.

You know, you start to learn what people like.

She likes to eat at 12, but he likes to eat at 2.

He's tired, judging by

how fast he's working, but actually, she's had a great morning because she's really quick, or she's quite shy.

So go to her, speak to her quietly.

Or you learn people and then you have to let them go.

You actually have to say goodbye.

So that's a really human experience once you come off a set.

And I think when you promote something, when you're on the road and you're talking about that experience,

you do yourself and everyone else a service by

making people people understand just how human the experience is.

So that people understand that it isn't just moving pictures and we aren't just people you sort of cut and splice together.

On that day, this person might have been having a terrible day, but yet they did this.

And that day she was in complete pain in this harness that she'd been in for 12 hours, but she was still able to sing that.

And on this day, she, you know, even though she has an allergy to whatever, she still moved through it because that was happening.

You know,

everyone is trying to create something, create art.

And we're not doing it from the comfort of our homes and our sofas.

We're really on the ground in the dirt moving through it.

And then we come together to share it.

That really is what being on the road is about, sharing the experience.

And I think we kind of knew that almost automatically.

And I think it's something that I will take with me for the rest of my life, not just for this next movie, but for everything I do, to make it a re-human experience is a gift i remember i've i've traveled so much with my clients and been on set and been in trailers if i'm coaching someone or working with someone and

i couldn't believe how not glamorous oh my god film sets are they're just not at all and it's so interesting because no one ever sees that no you only see the finished product and then you see the red carpet yeah and so you assume actors have a really like glamorous life yeah and actually for four months or for projects like yours for years

you're sitting in a tiny little trailer yeah uh you know putting on your clothes taking them off yeah lines like whatever makeup whatever it is you go on set you wait for three hours you don't know when you're going back out it's cold it's yeah it's so interesting how what you see and what you think yeah are two totally different things yeah and it dehumanizes people yeah and and so there's there's such a need for that and i don't think i could ever be friends with anyone who likes oatmeal raising cookies.

But I'm just pointing out.

But they're made in the right way.

And they're crunchy on the outside, but sort of like soft and buttery on the inside.

There's no way.

You can't convince me, Cynthia.

I think there's a place for them in the world.

I do think that, I think so.

There's that.

There's that.

I can't remember who said it, but someone was like, raising cookies are the reason I have trust issues because it's like

open chocolate.

Yeah, exactly.

I will make, like, I, because I do like to bake occasionally.

And when I was, when I was on the set, I would make big tins, like two, three tins full of like cookies for people.

So I would do like a set of chocolate chip, a set of like double chocolate, some chocolate and salt.

You're speaking my language, right?

Some like salted caramel.

And then for this one person, my wonderful first AD, Jack, who was like, I just want oatmeal, raisin.

That's what I want.

And that's my favorite.

And I would make them from scratch.

And I would, like with absolute love.

And I sometimes would I would put maybe like raspberries in it or sometimes I would do white chocolate in it and he would and if that's what someone loves that's what someone loves he would know very clearly that that is what that was that and I would make just a couple extra just in case anyone else felt like they wanted to try and I would make it very clear this is not chocolate there is there are raisins just so you trust me but there are chocolate chip over there

if you need

that's me i'm over there i love it that's amazing that you're doing that that every day.

Yeah.

I would do it every Monday for people.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

That's so beautiful.

Cynthia, it's been such an honor to talk to you again.

I could literally talk to you for hours.

I know.

We could go through it.

Yeah.

I just got from the, from your team, I just got a little time nod.

So I want to be mindful of that.

But honestly, you are, I just, I love meeting people whose work is infused with such.

deep inner work.

Like it really brings my heart joy to see that when people are putting art out into the world,

it's coming from so much revelation and reflection and inner work because I think sometimes we all appreciate art.

Yeah.

But for so long in the world, you appreciated art, but never knew the artist until they died maybe.

Correct.

Yeah.

And you didn't really understand them because they weren't famous or there wasn't social media or podcasting didn't exist.

It's like you saw a piece of art and you thought it was beautiful, but you didn't really know that artist.

And I just really appreciate you just being so open and and vulnerable.

Thank you.

As the artist, as the human, because it gives us such an invitation to understand ourselves better, understand you better.

And I can't wait for people to listen to the album.

I hope we do.

I'm really proud of it.

Yeah, yeah, you should be.

It really, I meant every word.

Thank you.

It's when you hear new music and it and you're making sense of it just on your own and it feels like that,

I can't wait for people to hear it.

And as always, friend, I'm rooting for you and forever in your corner and so grateful for you.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for having me again.

If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Kendall Jenner on setting boundaries to increase happiness and healing your inner child.

You could be reading something that someone is saying about you and being like, that is so unfair because that's not who I am.

And that really gets to me sometimes.

But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like, but I know who I am.

Why does anything else matter?

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