Communication Expert Vinh Giang: Why You Keep Getting Interrupted (How to Use Your Voice So People ACTUALLY Listen)

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You take a deep breath and then continue speaking.

The reason people aren't comfortable with the pause is because they don't know what the pause is for.

Right.

The pause allows people to process what you're saying.

Think about it now.

Listeners, as you're listening to that, the moment I paused,

you had a moment to process the things that I was saying.

Do you want to be more charismatic?

You see, the word communication.

There are two fundamental areas.

Didn't that just seem really important?

I was so

bad at interactions with human beings.

There was just a period of my life where I didn't understand what anybody was saying to me.

You're saying that everyone can go from being a shy, unconfident speaker to being a prolific speaker like yourself.

Being a confident communicator, that's just another series of behaviors that you can practice.

So when people say, oh, I'm shy, I always say to them, oh, that's because you've been practicing the shy behaviors for the last 15, 20, 30, 40 years.

What are the top three things, the practical problems that people are coming to solve when they come to you?

The number one health and wellness podcast.

Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty.

The one, the only Jay Shetty.

Vin Jiang is an award-winning entrepreneur, keynote speaker, podcast host, and communication coach who specializes in helping people master the art of confidently speaking.

With Vin's charisma and simple techniques, he transforms communication training into an engaging and unforgettable experience.

Over the past decade, Vin has built a global audience, inspiring millions through social media and live events.

Vin teaches individuals the tools to amplify their voice, command attention, and break through communication barriers.

Welcome to the show, Vin Jiang.

Vin, it's so good to see you finally, man.

I can't believe it's taken us this long to get together.

I've been a fan for a very, very long time.

Joe, thanks so much, man.

It's kind of surreal sitting on your set.

Oh, thank you, man.

I love the way you do what you do.

I love the effortlessness.

I love the confidence you're giving people, the empowering ability you have to make people feel comfortable in their own skin, in their own voice.

And I want to start by just asking you, like, what made you commit your life to helping people find their voice and find their confidence?

I always feel like the thing we end up doing in life tends to be something that had a massive impact on us when we were younger.

I don't know if you find the same to be true, but for me, man, Jay, when I was young,

I was such a bad communicator.

I was so bad at interactions with human beings.

And the reason for that is because English is my third language.

So I grew up first learning a Chinese dialect called Di Chiu and then I learned Vietnamese and then I learned English.

So there was just a period of my life where I didn't understand what anybody was saying to me and I couldn't communicate with other people.

So I just went through a period of life where I felt really isolated.

I didn't realize that I was doing it in my career.

But as I learned how to communicate more effectively, became a professional speaker, all of this, I went, oh, wow, now I have this skill that I can teach other people.

So the moment I just tried teaching it, I felt fulfillment.

And I never really felt that level of fulfillment before.

That's when I decided, oh, wow, it's cool to do it yourself.

It's even cooler to help other people do it.

And then that's kind of when I went all in with it and found so much fulfillment.

And again, I'm sure you get this all the time, but it's the comments, the emails you get.

And you're like, oh, wow, I'm doing something that matters.

Whereas before I was a magician.

So I did that for years.

And it feels weird to say it because I don't want to talk down on what magicians do, not at all.

It's just for me, the applause at times when I was doing magic, it felt really empty to me because I did it for so long and it started to feel a little bit empty.

And then when I started teaching public speaking and communication skills, it felt full.

It felt better.

It felt more fulfilling.

From the way you're talking about it, you're saying that everyone can go from being a shy, insecure, unconfident speaker to being a prolific speaker like yourself.

Yes, because it's all just a series of behaviors.

Everything you and I are doing right now, everything you see a great communicator do on stage, everything you see a great creator do on video, it's just a series of behaviors.

The way you're moving your mouth, the way you're manipulating airflow, the way you're moving your hands, it's all just behaviors.

So when people say, oh, I'm shy, I always say to them, oh, that's because you've been practicing the shy behaviors for the last 15, 20, 30, 40 years.

being a confident communicator.

That's just another series of behaviors that you can practice.

And if you practice that for 10, 20, 30, you'd be a confident communicator, right?

So it's just behaviors that we get attached to because it becomes a part of our identity.

And then I think when it becomes a part of our identity, all of a sudden now, we feel like we're stuck, but you're not.

And then there's this really interesting concept.

I don't know if you've come across it before, where it's, where does your voice come from?

Where do you get your voice from?

You learn how to communicate based on the people you were inspired by when you were young.

And you just learn behaviors from them.

Like I'm watching my daughter now, my daughter Melody, she's one.

And i can see her watch us and then start to mimic the things we do right right my wife the other day met her spaghetti she wouldn't eat it so my wife was furious she was so upset she was like ah you're not eating it then she goes ah she does the exact same thing right and then my son he picks up the way i speak because he's seven now i notice he has certain nuances that i have so again The voice you currently have, people think, oh, that's my natural voice.

It's like, no, no, no, it's not your natural voice.

You lost your natural voice when you were two or three years old, right?

Whereas the voice you have now, that's your habitual voice, it's just a series of habits.

And the thing that I find the first most fascinating is that when the habits move from your conscious mind and it goes into your subconscious mind, now you feel it's a part of you, and now you're stuck with it.

But in the beginning of your life, you have to consciously think, Oh, oh, dad speaks really softly, so I'm going to speak really softly.

But the moment you do that for two, three years, now it moves into your subconscious mind, and then you go, Oh, no, that's me.

No, no, it's it's still just a series of behaviors, and all that it is.

Yeah.

I've always loved that model of unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence.

And for anyone who doesn't know it, four stages, right?

The four stages.

The bottom stage is unconscious incompetence when you are unconscious of your incompetence.

You have no idea what you're doing wrong.

You probably don't know that you um are, try and fill every pore, say like at the end of every sentence, whatever it may be.

And we all have an unconscious incompetence, especially in the way we speak.

And that's when we have this mindset that you're saying, where we think it's our voice, but actually it's just practice behaviors.

And then, above from that, which is what I love, this is what you do so phenomenally well when you're with your audiences, is conscious incompetence.

You're helping people become aware of how our body language, our voice, our tonality affects us.

And then above that, for everyone who doesn't know the model, is

conscious competence correct where now you know

why you move your hand that way and why you choose to lower your voice or lower your pitch or whatever it may be and that's kind of a frustrating part for people to be at stage three right because they go i know it but vin i still have to think about it so when they do it it's really interesting because i see my students do this all the time where they go hello everybody it's great to be here and then they go vin this feels so fake it feels so phony but i'm like you have to go through that stage to get to stage four which is unconscious competence which is mastery yes and a lot of people aren't willing to push through that because they go no it doesn't feel natural so that means it's not right let's talk about that that's a really

I think that's one of the biggest challenges because I think we're both sitting here as people who've trained worked hard at our craft worked hard at our art yeah and now at this point it does feel like unconscious competence yeah

but a lot of people say well no but if you had to learn it then it's fake.

It's unnatural.

It's not real.

It's phony.

It's phony.

But what's the difference between developing a skill versus faking it?

Like, what's the difference?

I love your definition of home, where you say home is the familiar, right?

And to me, the way you currently communicate, you have a home.

And that is because those behaviors you've been repeating for the last 10, 20, 30 years, right?

So that feels like home to you.

Whereas what people don't realize is, and I don't mean to take a long explanation for this.

No, I do.

I think it's important.

When you used to ask me what my home was when I was young, I would say my suburb.

So I'd say Salisbury Downs.

Then as I got older, I started to explore my city.

I'll say Adelaide is my home, South Australia, right?

And then as I explored more of my state, then I would say South Australia is my home.

Then I explored more of Australia.

I go, Australia is my home.

Now I've lived in LA and Southern California.

Oh.

I kind of feel like America is my home too.

And then as I travel more of the world, I go, oh, the world is my home.

The same thing with your communication skills.

You have access to this incredible instrument, but your home is such a small part of that instrument.

Say a piano has 88 keys, right?

Right now, home to you is five keys because you're only familiar with those five keys.

But as you start to realize you have access to this incredible instrument, you start to play the other keys.

Home becomes the entire piano.

Whereas the struggle that people have is the moment they do something that...

they're unfamiliar with, instead of labeling it as unfamiliar, they label it as fake and phony.

And what happens the moment you do do that?

You stop exploring your instrument.

And now you are limited to the five keys you've been playing with your entire life.

And I think there's an overattachment to the familiar, which keeps us the same.

Because when you think about this, most people change the way they dress, they change their glasses, they change their house, they change their car, but they never change the way they talk.

They never change the way they communicate because we are way too attached to the familiar.

And I say to my students this all the time, don't be so attached to who you are in the present.

You don't give the future version of you a chance.

There's a future version of you where the world is home.

There's a future version of you where you can play all ATA keys.

I love that concept of we change our hair, we change our glasses, change our clothes, but we don't change the way we communicate.

And I was going to ask you, when you have so many people coming to see you speak, what are the top three things, the practical problems that people are coming to solve when they come to you?

So when someone comes and says, Vin, I need your help.

What are they trying to solve in their life?

The top three things that you hear?

First thing would be they want to get from stage one, unconscious incompetence, to like, you've made me aware of one thing.

How can I start to become aware of more things?

So again, self-awareness.

So first thing they go is like, how can I become more self-aware?

I've now been, I'm awake now to the problem of my communication.

How can I begin that journey and become more aware?

And when they ask me that question, then I share with them a very simple technique.

And a very simple technique that I share with them is record and review.

So the only way to become more aware is if you see yourself.

And most people hate watching themselves on video.

Most people hate listening to themselves on audio.

So that means they've been going through their entire life avoiding the two most critical things you need to develop self-awareness with your communication.

So, and they hate this process.

So the process is record a video of you speaking for five minutes, right?

And then when you review and reflect on that video, leave it for a day so you're less critical of yourself.

And once you've left it for a day, the first time you grab your phone to review the video, put it on mute and then just look at yourself.

And then as you're looking at yourself, take notes.

What am I doing with my hands?

How are my facial expressions?

What am I doing with my legs?

How am I moving?

Am I, do I have any visual ticks?

So you take a whole bunch of notes.

That's the beginning process of self-awareness.

Then after that, turn the volume up.

Just listen to yourself now.

Turn the phone around, play, just listen.

And as you're listening now, listen to the vocal qualities.

What do you like about your voice?

What don't you like?

What can you hear?

How's your rate of speech?

How's your volume?

What's your melody like?

Do you hear the passion if you're passionate about something?

You'll take so many notes when you do this.

What are your feeler words, non-words, right?

You get all of that down.

Then the last step is get it transcribed.

So once you transcribe it now, you can see the way you communicate in a completely different perspective.

You might notice you speak in circles.

I repeated the same thing four times.

What am I doing?

Right?

And you'll see different things.

If you just go through that process once,

You'll get a list of five to 10 things.

That's how you begin your journey of self-awareness.

Yet people will resist that

because it's too uncomfortable.

They'll record it, but they won't watch it.

But the ones that do, Jay, I immediately get a DM after.

Shock.

I can't believe I do X.

And it's crazy because I think of one of my students right now where he said, For six years, I've been held back in my career because my managers and my leaders say that I lack clarity, I lack authority, and I lack confidence.

And he goes, and they give me this feedback, yet they don't tell me what I need to improve.

And do you know what I realized been through doing this record and review process?

The one thing that has robbed me of six years of progress is my umming and ahing.

I can't believe umming and ahing has held me back.

And he was so frustrated.

And I remember I had to tell him, I go, look, look, that's, I get your frustration, but at least it didn't hold you back.

for 20 years.

And you realized that now.

But something simple as umming and ahing ahing held him back for that long and destroyed his perception of being a great leader.

It's kind of crazy.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to get to is that's the problem.

I feel someone may see your work and they'll say, well, I don't want to be a public speaker.

That's right.

That's not the point.

The point is there's a promotion that you're not getting because you don't have authority.

Or the challenge is you're not able to ask out the person on a date that you really want to take out on a date.

Like you don't feel that confidence.

Or there's the challenge of you're in a team meeting and you feel like your voice voice is never heard people always overlook your opinion they don't hear you what are some of those stories that you've heard of people that have had those types of challenges that are coming to you and saying exactly like the one you just told us yeah you're like oh vin this is actually solving a daily issue for me the big one people keep interrupting me not only do they not listen to my ideas they interrupt me And then my turn is gone now.

And the idea that I was going to share was one that was going to be able to change the course of the meeting.

But because they interrupted me, now I'm invisible.

And that keeps happening to me.

And then when they ask me, they go, why do other people interrupt me?

Why does it happen?

The reason is something that I don't think you'd expect because it comes down to vocal presence and physical presence.

And when I see them in the situations where people interrupt them, the reason is because their vocal presence is low and their physical presence is low.

So, for example, everyone's sitting around a meeting table.

And again, I go, look, send me an example, right?

Where you're doing a big Zoom meeting and you're allowed to send me this, send it to me.

Let me see what's happening.

And when you see it, everyone's sitting down.

And then the way she would bring up the question, it was a woman who asked me this.

And I remember the way she'd ask it is very low volume.

So look, I've just got a quick idea I would love to share with you all.

Very small body language.

And if I was talking to you like this right now, it is so easy for you to interrupt this version of me.

So easy.

Whereas imagine instead I said, take control of this, stand, stand.

Oh, I feel a bit a little bit weird.

We'll just prime the reason.

Just go, look, I've been sitting all day.

Do you mind if I stand for my part of the presentation?

Oh, great.

All right.

Then you just stand.

If you stand now, all of a sudden you're in a position of more authority.

And if you use larger body language, stronger volume, the version of me right now, this version is infinitely more difficult for you to interrupt.

Absolutely.

It's infinitely more difficult because you've got more authority.

You've got more credibility.

But again, because...

A lot of people in those situations fall victim to a lower default volume, a slower default rate of speech, smaller body language, and then all of a sudden people interrupt them.

Absolutely.

Or talk over them.

Yes.

Completely ignored.

So I say, I often say to my students, the reason people interrupt you is because you're easy to interrupt.

Create a bit of that friction, right?

Create a little bit of that authority.

And then again, they try it.

It feels a little bit, again, they say fake and phony, but I'm like, reframe it, reframe it.

It's just unfamiliar.

And then they start to do it.

They go, oh, it felt really unfamiliar.

But the moment they do it, they go, wow, people, like, just from standing alone, Vin, I felt like I stood.

I just had a bit of volume.

I didn't even use my body language, but already people are not interrupting me.

So again, it just goes to show that how you use your instrument and your voice lets other people know how they can treat you.

Yeah, that's such a great point.

It's so true.

And I hope everyone who's listening and watching right now, I want you to rewind back, right?

Go backwards the last five minutes, everything that Vin said from the point of self-awareness through to just now and practice it in your next meeting, right?

Listen to yourself in a meeting, even record record yourself while you're in a meeting as you are normally, as you are right now.

And then go listen back to that and then apply what Vinva's saying, because it's so interesting to me how daily our communication is impacting our lives.

And we think we're not getting promoted because we're not networking or we're not

technically great or whatever it may be.

Or maybe you're sitting there going, Jay, I'm actually one of the best in the company when it comes to XYZ.

But now I realize that it's my ability to coach people, guide people, because because I have that influence.

I wanted to ask you, how does an introvert get the courage to do what you just said?

Because I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to right now.

They're introverted naturally.

I mean, do you even believe in introverts?

Or is that also a practice behavior?

Well, there definitely is a difference, obviously.

I asked my vocal teacher the same thing.

I said, what's the difference between an introvert and an extrovert?

And she goes, the key thing is just how they get energy.

Are you introverted or are you extroverted?

I mean, I know I'm very extroverted.

I get energy from being around people.

But she goes, goes, introverts, they lose energy once they're around people.

So she goes, look, that's the key difference.

Now, let me ask you a question.

A pianist, if they're an extrovert, would they play differently to an introvert?

And I had to think about that for a while because I thought, surely this is a trick question.

And I said, yes.

And she goes, no, you're an idiot.

There's no difference.

You will not be able to tell who it is an introvert and who is an extrovert if you listen to a pianist.

Great music is great music.

Your voice is an instrument.

Great music is great music.

She goes, the only difference is introverts have to be highly strategic with when they play their instrument.

Extroverts can play their instrument all day.

It's more difficult for an introvert because you have to be highly selective when you play your instrument.

It's an excuse that I think some of my friends who are introverted used to give and where they say, oh, no, because I'm introvert, I'm not going to play my instrument well at all.

And it's like, no, no, no.

You still have energy.

You just have to use it much more strategically and you have to be highly aware of how you can rejuvenate that energy.

Yes.

You have to be very conscious.

It's harder for introverts.

It is harder for introverts to acknowledge that.

However, if you've got great ways to be able to rejuvenate your energy and you have good menu items, like good things you can go out and snack on and recreate some of that energy and rejuvenate, then you still have to learn how to play your instrument well.

Otherwise, you will become that person that, and again, the majority of my students are the person you described.

It's the, I'm way smarter than John.

I'm way smarter than Sarah, but why did they get the promotion?

Why didn't I get it?

Well, it's because if you are technically 10 out of 10, but your communication skills are a three out of 10, do you think your organization perceives you to be a 10 out of 10 or a three out of 10?

You are only as good as you can communicate.

So as you improve your communication skills, you start to shine your light more brightly in the world.

Whereas a lot of my students tend to think, oh, but it's my boss's responsibility to see the brilliance in me.

No, no, it's not.

It's your responsibility to shine brightly, not their responsibility.

So when you take it upon yourself, things change.

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There's such a need for ownership and accountability for our lives because like you said, and I've, I for a long time believed that someone was going to come and spot my talent and see it and nurture it and help me build up.

And I realized no one was coming and that no one could see it because they were too busy in their own lives.

It's not that they were bad people people or they were bitter or they were wrong or they were not able to spot talent.

Everyone was busy.

People were just busy in their day to day.

They don't have time to spot your skill and your talent and nurture it.

If someone's listening to this right now and they're saying, Vin, I love what you just said.

I'm an introvert.

I agree with you.

There are times when I can and can't perform or can't bring it out.

How do I hold energy?

How do I create energy?

If I have a meeting coming up today, if I'm going to be on a Zoom call today, what do I do in order to make sure I'm at my best?

Because right now I'm going from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, Zoom call to Zoom call.

I'm just exhausted.

First thing is you have to learn how to protect your energy.

For example, yesterday I was doing a couple of different podcasts while I'm here in LA and I didn't leave the hotel room.

The podcast wasn't till four.

I didn't leave the hotel room at all to the point where my videographer freaked out and just knocked on my door and said, are you okay?

Are you still all right?

Are you all right?

I'm like, yeah.

I'm conserving my energy.

I'm a fairly high energy person.

So I have to conserve my energy.

So all morning is, again, I didn't talk to anyone this morning.

I had to wait to talk to you.

Because

if you don't conserve your energy and you just give it all the time everywhere, then you won't have any.

So that's number one.

Got to conserve your energy.

And then the second thing is have go to, I call them menu items.

Have some menu items that you can quickly reach for.

So one that I love is Wim Hoff, the breathing technique, right?

The guided bubble breath.

Two cycles of that before a meeting.

My brain is oxygenated.

My body feels good.

I feel like I just, I just feel revitalized.

Can you break the band down for us just in case?

Yeah, yeah, okay.

So if people don't know

YouTuber, but it's, it's 30 deep breaths in and out.

So

30 of that.

And then after that, at the end of the 30th one, you breathe out and then hold your breath.

And you'll be shocked how long you can hold your breath for.

You'll be shocked.

The first time I did this, I couldn't believe I could hold it for a minute and a half, two minutes.

I thought I was going to die.

I thought I was dying.

And then at the end of you holding your breath for a minute or so, as long as you can, after that, just take a deep breath in, hold for 15 seconds and release.

And that breathing technique alone has

energized me even when I am doing Zoom calls at 3 a.m.

in the morning because I work with some US clients.

It just gets me three cycles of that, two cycles of that.

Incredible.

I was.

Not a believer in that at all when I first learned.

I was like, yeah, surely that's not going to work.

What?

Breathing?

I do that every day.

Changed my life.

yeah i agree my go-to technique to energize myself the next one to me is a snack something healthy i love blueberries raspberries with a little bit of cream oh man a light meal i love it right and then favorite beverage my go-to is coffee i don't know that's i feel like some people are going to tell me it's going to kill me but i love it so have your own go-to yeah right have your own routine a routine yeah i have a playlist of videos that crack me up.

I don't know.

Have you seen videos that made you laugh?

Yeah, of course.

Save them.

Yeah.

Save them because they're packing.

Put you in a great mood, yeah.

Put you in a great mood.

I'll give you one last one for me.

Is again, I've just got so many things out of my menu.

No, I love it.

I also love orchestral war music.

Okay, so like Hans Zimmer-esque.

Yes, I love Stella.

And if you're listening to Interstellar Hans Zimmer while you're doing Wim Hoff, as you take a sip of coffee, oh man, I'm going to try that.

Yeah, give that a go.

I'm I'm going to give that a go.

Give that a go.

It's an intoxicating mix.

I love that.

Yeah, my routine's a lot more simple.

But I love, no, but you're right.

Everyone needs one.

I went on my world tour two years ago now.

We did 40 cities across

three to four months around the world.

Got to come to Australia.

I know.

A place that I absolutely loved.

It was my first time there.

I didn't get to come to Adelaide.

I hope I do next time.

I know.

We're offended, by the way.

Yeah, oh no, gosh.

Please don't be.

We did Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne.

And honestly, there was something about the Australian people that stuck with me.

I was telling you this a bit earlier.

There was this banter back, which I loved.

I would banter with people on stage.

I'd, you know, little quips and things, and they'd come back at it.

And I loved it.

And the other thing was everyone was so grateful.

Everyone would just say to me, they'd be like, thank you for coming all this way.

And I was like, wait a minute, you came to see my show.

I should be thanking you.

And I was.

I was so grateful that people turned up in, you know, the thousands that came out.

And it was just amazing.

Everyone was so grateful.

There was such a great energy but the reason i brought it up is i realized that my tour schedule was extremely different from a keynote because a keynote is i've got to do it once and then it's done this was every night if not every other night if not sometimes in australia i did two shows back to back in the same day on the same day because we were at the sydney opera house for two days but we did two shows in one day one show the next day so three shows across two days and then went to i think it was brisbane or melbourne that was lost and so my tour schedule was different, but I realized I had to stop eating at 12.

My show was at 8 p.m.

I had to stop eating at 12.

I'd have a protein bar around 5, 6 p.m.

to give me that little bit of boost of energy.

I'd have a sparkling water because I preferred that just before I went on.

And then I would have to eat.

I'd get off stage at 10, do a meet and greet for two hours, and then I'd eat at midnight every day.

Now, that's not my normal schedule at all.

Like that's completely against my normal schedule.

But I had to find that.

And I I think that's what's so interesting about this is that I'm not, I sleep at 9, 9.30 every night.

That's when I'm in bed.

So for me to be having to eat dinner at midnight is so abnormal, but I found that there was a different routine.

I also didn't go out to any noisy places before or after the show because I had to be on vocal rest.

I knew I'd lose my voice if I went to a restaurant or whatever.

So for three, four months, I didn't go to a restaurant while I was out in all these cool cities.

I was like, oh, did you go to this place?

I was like, nope, I didn't go any of those places because I would have lost my voice and then I wouldn't have been able to perform.

And I think that's the important part of the craft, that there's a dedication and a surrender to this is what matters.

And therefore, some of this other stuff is going to have to fall by the wayside.

And what you just said made me think the importance of finding what works for you.

Yes.

I feel like people have this misunderstanding that I should just have this energy naturally.

Yes.

Back to your original question, right?

I should just have it naturally.

And if I don't have it naturally, there's something wrong with me.

It's like, no, you had to not eat for eight hours to get yourself into the right state.

And I think that fasted state helps us think more sharp and helps us be more on point.

Right.

And it takes work to show up with energy, intention, and purpose.

Whereas I think people have this illusion in their minds that, oh, it should be easy.

Yeah.

And if it only takes a week.

Yeah.

Or there's something wrong.

It's like, no, no, no, no, no, there's a craft to it.

Like even preparing for a Zoom call.

Some people go, oh, is that a bit much?

But that's how you show up three Zoom calls back to back.

Structure it with 15 minutes in between.

You have to reset.

Even for me, it's doing these podcasts, traveling overseas.

I'm exhausted.

But then again, if I choose to give this energy, I need to conserve it.

I need to have ways to rejuvenate it.

And I have to go through the process.

And you have to commit to the craft.

You have to commit to that discipline.

Whereas if you one night did eat at 6 p.m., well, then that show wouldn't be as great, but you were dedicated.

And I think that that is what people have to really understand is there are ways to do it, but you've got to take yourself through the process.

Yeah, absolutely.

For someone who's listening to their voice now, they're listening to us.

They're like, Vin, I'm going to listen to this.

They start listening back to their voice and they cringe

at their voice because we all have this

strange.

And by the way, we all have it.

I have, and I want to say that here.

I have that too.

No one likes listening.

to the sound of their own voice.

There's something uncomfortable about it.

First of all, do you know where that comes comes from?

And then what do we do about that when you're listening back and you just,

you know, your whole body, your face, everything?

It's not just listening.

It's when you look at yourself on video too.

And there's a reason for that.

The reason we hate the sound of our voice is because when we hear ourselves on recording, that's not how we sound to ourselves.

The way you sound to yourself, you have a deep, rich, barry-white voice, right?

And the reason you have a different sounding voice to yourself is when you're speaking, the vibrations go through your bones and your muscles and then it hits your ears.

The vibrations of the sound is going through a more dense medium, which creates a lower pitched sound.

So when you hear yourself via an audio replay, that's going through the airwaves.

So your voice sounds thinner and higher pitched.

So you immediately go, no, no, no.

I don't sound like that.

I sound like this.

I don't sound like this.

And they freak out.

So that difference in the medium in which you're receiving the sound causes people immediately to reject because it actually does sound different.

The reason why people don't like looking at themselves on video is because it's flipped the other way.

And they go, oh, I don't look like that because you look at yourself in the mirror every day.

Whereas on camera, it shows the way other people see you.

Whereas when you look at yourself in the mirror, it's flipped.

So your entire life, you've seen yourself a certain way, right?

Unless your face was perfectly symmetrical, right?

Then you go, oh, no, I don't look like that.

So immediately people go, I look weird.

I sound weird.

So the thing you need to do there is desensitize it, mate.

Just listen to yourself over and over.

Like, do you listen to a podcast now and do you still freak out about your voice?

Not anymore.

Not anymore.

Not anymore.

No, because you're desensitized.

So what happens is a calibration happens.

What you hear in your head and what you hear on an audio replay, the calibration starts to just do this.

And then gradually you can't hear the difference anymore.

And then when you look at yourself on camera and also in the mirror, the calibration starts to happen.

You go, oh, that's me.

Oh, that's just me.

It's painful.

But if you go through that, you get over it.

Yeah, it's all that discomfort in the beginning

that we all need to go through.

I was, we were talking about this earlier.

So I was really fortunate because when I was 11 years old, my parents were so scared that I was so shy and so insecure that they forced me to go to public speaking school.

And so my school had an extracurricular activity with the London Academy of Music, Drama and Arts.

For seven years, I had about three sessions a week of two to three hours each.

It was fairly rigorous and you'd have to take exams.

And the exams were pretty rigorous too.

So every year you'd go to this exam and you'd turn up and the examiner would be in a room.

And And before you even meet the examiner, you'd get, you could take a book.

Yeah.

It could be any book you wanted, but they were going to pick any page and ask you to read it in a emotive, dramatic, and powerful way.

And so they could pick any, any page out of a book.

The next part of the test was they would give you a topic 15 minutes before.

You'd be in a library.

This is when we didn't have, you know,

there probably was the internet, but there wasn't this.

They wanted to keep you away from all of of that.

You'd be in a library and you'd have 15 minutes to prep a talk about the dangers of smoking or whatever it was, a topic that they'd picked.

And you had to structure a talk out and the talk had to be five minutes long.

And so you had to do that.

The third part of it was you had a prepared presentation with visual aids.

This is what we still use projector screens.

And the slides.

Yeah,

classic.

And then you were tested on that, including the visual aids that you used.

And I'm sure there were a couple of other things as well.

And then you'd get graded.

and

it was uncomfortable.

We'd be sitting in a class, and remember, we're all like young teenagers at this point, so everyone's even more judgmental and more, you know.

And you get into the class, and you're all making these weird faces to try and warm yourselves up.

And they're telling you to enunciate and pronounce all of the letters differently.

And you're doing all these silly things, your friends are laughing at you.

And it's exactly what you're saying.

The reason I brought it up is that it was years of discomfort.

It was just years of looking silly, looking stupid, sounding bad, giving a bad talk, giving a bad presentation, walking into a room.

Then all of a sudden that discomfort changed to confidence.

And I find that for most of us, especially as you get older, going through that discomfort becomes harder.

For example, if me and you, I don't know how old you are, but I tried to pick up a sport a couple of years ago in the pandemic.

It was much harder for me to learn a sport at this age than if I played it in my teens.

So when you're meeting people in their 20s, 30s, maybe 40s, 50s, and they're trying to change their instrument, they're trying to change their voice, that discomfort is so much harder than when I started at 11 or whatever age you started at.

How do you encourage people to sit with that discomfort, to go through that?

Because it is harder.

Such a beautiful insight that you shared there.

The reason it was easier for you at 11 is because you are new to a lot of these behaviors.

Completely.

The behaviors haven't been ingrained in you yet.

Whereas when you're 40 now, and I'm 38.

So if you want to.

Yeah,

so once you're 40 and you realize this, you've done 40 years of repeating one behavior, two behaviors, a series of behaviors over and over and over and over again.

That's why it becomes harder, right?

And all of a sudden, it becomes way more difficult because now you have to unlearn something that you've been repeating for that long.

So I think that's really difficult there.

One other point I wanted to mention, what you said there too, is that you said you went through years of discomfort.

A lot of people have this idea that, again, it should just be a quick process.

And if I'm struggling for a period, then something's not right.

It's like, no, no, no, no, struggle.

That's good.

It means you're in the process of change, right?

You're going through the process of change.

And you have to be willing to put in that effort, go through the struggle.

And I think the thing that people are resistant to is failing.

Because I believe, and I want to ask you this question, did you learn more from your successes in those situations in those public speaking exams or did you learn more from your failures failures people don't want to fail now i don't want to make a video put it out on instagram where i've made a fool out of myself but that's how we learn right i don't want to do a speech where i i forget what i'm going to say but that's how you learn you have it happen then you go back and you go okay why did i forget i wasn't well rehearsed right why did i forget i didn't know how to deal with my nerves Now you need to learn how to rehearse.

Now you need to learn how to manage your nerves.

So all of a sudden, if you don't fail, you don't know where your weakness is and then you don't know what to work on.

So you've got to pay the price.

I think you've got to pay the price.

Back to your original question.

No, that's a great, I am so glad you brought that up.

Yeah, it's just so important because I think people just now are resistant to failing.

Yet we learn far more from our failures than we do from our successes.

For sure.

So for the person who's 40,

oh my God, then how do I now, how do, what do I do?

Am I doomed?

No, no, you're not.

It's just when Jay was 11, he was able to work on three or four different behaviors at the same time because you're so elastic, right?

There's so many things that could change about you when you're at that age.

But when you're less elastic in your older years, you just now have to focus on one thing at a time.

So I've coached a few CEOs of some pretty big companies here in the US.

And it's so funny because when I map out their,

I used to, I don't do it anymore, but when I did it and I mapped out their coaching program and I showed it to them, they got upset because they're like, wait, you're making me work on my volume for four four weeks and that's all we're doing?

This feels stupid.

And in those moments, I just had the courage to go, well, look, then pick somebody else.

It's okay.

Get a refund, pick somebody else.

Because I kind of said to them, you're 50 and you've been speaking with a very default quiet volume for 50 years.

Do you expect to be able to change that in 48 hours?

Because I get them to send me a video every day, right?

And every time they send me a video, I go, watch what you're doing for the first seven days.

Even though you know we're working on volume, your default volume is like a four out of 10.

And that's when they go, oh, far out.

I keep defaulting back to it.

So the older you are, you've got to realize one thing at a time.

One thing at a time.

But it drives people crazy.

I want to do seven things with it.

I want to do hand gestures.

I want to learn how to storytell.

I want to use volume.

I want to add pitch and melody.

I want to do all of it.

But that's also what leads to no change.

That's why most people never change the way they sound because they're not willing to sit and be patient and do one thing at a time.

Yeah.

A good example is thinking about it like driving.

Yes.

How many bad driving habits have we picked up in the last 20 years because we haven't been tested, we haven't reviewed it.

Right.

And I had to, I recently had to redo my driving test because of moving here and, you know, getting a state ID and all that kind of stuff.

And I realized just how many bad habits you pick up.

Now, I believed myself to be a safe driver and a good driver and a responsible driver, but still,

the fact that for 20 years no one's watched me and checked on me driving, you lose that.

And so that's 20 years of driving, which is something we do every day, which is similar to speaking.

You're doing it every day, but no one's doing what you're not

right.

You're not recording yourself driving and sending it to someone.

You just made me think of something.

Go for it when you said driving as well.

I mean, when you think back to the four stages of learning we talked about before, and you talk about unconscious competence.

To give people a sense of what's possible once you really go down the path of mastery of communication skills, think of an area in your life where you have achieved unconscious competence.

It's driving.

Whether we're good or not, that's another thing, right?

But most people, I would dare say sometimes too, you're kind of unconscious when you're driving because you're so good at it.

You've done it every single day of your adult life.

So you've gotten to a point where you are unconsciously competent, right?

And then people always ask me now, they go, ovian, when you communicate now, are you thinking about gesturing?

Are you thinking about storytelling?

Are you thinking about it?

I go, no, I don't.

Because like with the car, when you you think you want to go to the grocery store do you have any thought now into oh i need to open the door or i need to check my blind spot or i need to adjust my no it's all automatic so the reason why i try to inspire my students to improve their communication skills because i say to them that means in the very next conversation you have with a client a customer a family member you can just think

i want this outcome i want to be able to help them in this way Your skills and abilities will just take you there.

And that's why you come across in these podcasts and the professional people who do this, it's so natural.

And when people are sitting there going, I want to be that natural, but it requires a dedication to mastery.

Yeah.

And that's the point that I really want people to get.

I remember sitting and watching one of my favorite comedians who became a friend, and he was just brilliant.

Like he would have the audience laughing and in raptures, like in the palm of his hand, right?

And but

everything looked.

and felt completely off the cuff.

So he'd literally just turn up on stage.

It wasn't like he wasn't in the flow.

Sometimes you watch a comedian and you can tell there's an arc and you can tell there's a story and you can tell it's planned.

This guy would literally come up, he'd be like, hey, does anyone, has anyone read any books lately?

And like someone would name a book and he'd be like, oh yeah, I read that page and he'd make a joke out of it.

And then someone else, and he'd be like, oh, what's your favorite song right now?

And it's all a conversation.

Brings out a song.

Oh, yeah, I can't believe he said that lyric, makes a joke about the lyric.

And it was unbelievable to watch.

And I spoke to him afterwards and I said to him, I said, who did you learn that from?

Like, where did that come from?

He said, I've practiced it so much that it looks spontaneous, but it's completely trained.

And I think that's what everyone wants.

Everyone wants for it to look spontaneous.

But that took years of discomfort, courage, failure, training, mastery.

When I'm telling a story or hosting a podcast, I'm not trying to sound like anything because your voice has...

for so many years become that way.

And I'm at a point in my career, for sure, I was asked to give, I just gave three keynotes in the Middle East in January and in Dubai.

And I said to myself, I'm going to walk into these and just channel.

Like I just want to go in there and just be.

I'm not going to, I'm going to have some notes.

I know what I need to talk about.

I know the title of the talk, but I'm just going to be.

And I had so much fun there.

I had so much fun.

And it seemed like the feedback was great for the audience, whatever, but it was just so much fun for me because I was like, I just want to feed off the energy in the room.

And they were all, and my friend, my one of my best friends, he came with me and he was like, Jay, every talk was different.

He goes, at the One Billion Summit, you were hilarious.

Like, it was like watching a comedian.

And then he goes, At Mind Valley, it was really deep and like, you know, philosophical.

And then at the other place, the corporate event, it was very professional.

He was like, there were three talks in three days and they were all completely different.

I was like, because I was just feeling the energy of the room.

Yeah.

And I love that.

Walk me through how many hours, how much time, how many years have you seen people take to get to a point where they feel that sense

of unconscious competence,

not of mastery, because that can take many years, but of a sense of comfortability where it's flowing and they don't feel phony and contrived anymore.

What have you seen?

It depends on your shortest, longer.

What have you seen?

I've seen unbelievable change within six months.

And this is someone.

who has become problem aware that this thing has been destroying my relationships, destroying my career growth.

And when the pain becomes that great and you become problem aware, I can't believe how quickly some of my students have been able to change.

And then I've seen it take as long as three or four years.

And where I'll get to that.

That's still great.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And where I'll get an email three to four years later and they go, I can't believe it's taken me this long to email you.

I almost feel a little bit ashamed.

I'm like, no, no, because it took me 10.

So that's amazing.

That's incredible.

Right.

Because it ranges so much depending on the intensity of the pain they feel and the realizations they have.

I have to bring it back to what you said before, because what you said before about you going to three events and just going with the flow, I know the people listening to this right now, while you were saying that, they were clenching their butt cheeks because they were like, oh, that's so, that's so freaky.

And I wanted to speak to that because what you just described to me is one of the ultimate benefits of mastery in this arena, and it's freedom.

You were free

in each one of those speeches.

You were free to go where the audience wanted to go.

That's one of the things I rarely ever get to even talk about because I don't get to speak to others usually who are so proficient at this skill set.

That's ultimate freedom, Jay.

When you feel something, you think something, and you're immediately in the moment, able to articulate it with clarity and make people laugh at the same time.

That is so powerful, man.

I'm getting shivers just you saying it.

It's like goosebumps.

And to know you're going into that, being able to do that, like again, it's achievable for you listening to this too.

What I love about it is that there was so much discovery for me on that stage.

And that's what I do it for.

I don't do it to show off or be like, oh, look, I don't need to prepare or be lazy or not respect my client.

I do it for discovery.

And what I mean by that is, when I don't plan to that 100%,

I now have the opportunity to find and discover in the moment.

So there were so many things that I said in those three keynotes that I've never said in my life.

And that's where I get joy.

Yeah, you create.

And I said that first because I wanted to take it back and say, my first experience of public speaking, I want to ask you about yours.

I was around seven years old.

And

My mom always wanted me to be on stage and do things like that.

And I didn't.

And so it was a religious assembly.

And I was dressed as people from my culture.

And I was asked to go and sing and speak on this prayer in front of my class.

Now, I grew up in London.

I grew up in an area where there weren't loads of Indian people like me.

I'm now on stage dressed in traditional garb, but it was basically me wrapped in a sari, if you've ever seen that.

Yes, I have.

And my mum had even put some makeup on me, probably, to try and make me look more the part, and it didn't help.

And then I'm on stage in front of all my friends.

I'm seven, eight years old, something like that.

And I stand up there with this prayer that I'm not that well versed in or practiced.

And I start singing it.

I have a terrible singing voice, and that's not humble.

There's a difference between a speaking voice and a singing voice.

I can't sing to save my life.

And I start singing, and the whole audience starts laughing immediately.

Like just like literally, all my friends are rolling on the floor laughing.

And now I'm starting to cry because I felt really embarrassed.

And I look down because I I forgot the words.

And now I can't see the words because my tears have blurred the words of my paper.

So I've lost the notes.

So I also don't know the words.

And then to make it even worse than that, my teacher walks on stage.

She puts her arm around me and walks me off, which is the most embarrassing thing in the world.

And so I go from that at eight years old.

And this is why I love what you're doing for the world because you're showing and proving you can build this skill.

It is a muscle.

And that was my first experience of public speaking.

A few years after that, after all the training as well, I was probably speaking in rooms of zero to five people and pouring my heart out into just five people.

And even now when I look back, I loved it because I just got to be so proficient and practiced.

And so when someone's saying, oh, do I have to do this for four weeks?

Or wait, only five people are showing up or whatever those things are, those are actually really, really beautiful moments.

I wanted to ask you, what was your first time public speaking?

What was the first ever experience on stage?

Have you recovered from that experience?

I have now.

I have now, but even though I started getting trained when I was 11, I probably didn't get half decent until I was like 17 or 18.

Like that's why when you said you can get people then three to four years, I'm like, that's pretty good.

Because if I started at 11, I probably got half decent at.

16 to 18.

I wasn't good when I was like 12, 13, 14.

All those years were just, you know.

It's such a common story among many of the students that I coach.

There usually is some kind of event when they were younger that has led them to believe that I'm terrible at this thing because there wasn't the right support.

You were thrown into that.

You didn't even practice.

You didn't even learn the words, right?

So again, like you were set up to almost fail.

And a lot of the...

oral presentations that we do when we're young, that's what they're called, right?

Oh, you're going to do a presentation.

We're set up to fail.

When you're 11 and you have to do this presentation in front of your class, do they teach you how to use your hands?

Do they teach you where to put your notes?

Do they teach you how to summarize notes and not write the whole damn thing on cue cards?

No, they're setting you up to fail.

So this is such a common story because our school system, the entire year, has one day where we have to go on in front of the class and do it.

And guess what?

Guess what happens that day?

I'm sick, mom.

I can't go to school.

I'm saying, I got to sorry.

Then you say, then you miss the one day you have training.

And then if you do the training, you're all set up to fail.

You're all set up to fail.

So every person has a version of this.

My version of this is a little more dramatic because I was older.

I was in university and we had to do a presentation for accounting.

And I was so nervous.

I remember going to the toilet 10, 12 times,

so nervous.

And then I got up on stage and I had a sniffle.

So I kept touching when I had a sniffle.

And then I got a blood nose.

And I didn't realize I had a blood nose because

I thought it was just boogo.

So I didn't know.

So I wiped it.

Blood comes across my face.

I don't know I have blood on my face.

Why are you speaking?

While I'm speaking.

I didn't know it was blood, right?

And then I, obviously a blood vessel went.

I was so nervous.

Everything was going crazy.

And then I didn't realize it was blood.

And I was still talking.

And then people started laughing.

And then I tasted blood.

And then the moment I tasted blood, I looked at my hands.

There was blood everywhere.

I start freaking out.

I didn't know what to do.

The teachers didn't even know what to do either.

Do you know what I had to do?

I finished the talk.

And it was,

well, it was only a five-minute presentation, but I finished it because I didn't know what to do.

And I panicked.

And it was just the worst presentation I'd ever given.

From that point, I just thought, yep, you know what?

I'm going to avoid this at all costs.

I'm never going to do it ever again.

This is the worst experience of my life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just, and I walked off.

I just,

yeah, I'm glad there were no videos back then and no photos.

Oh, there's no yoga.

That's so traumatic.

Wow, that is traumatic, man.

To actually bleed, to be that nervous, to be that stressed.

Yeah, that's how stressed I was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To experience that.

That's, I love that that's where you started.

And now if someone watched, like, when I watch your videos, I'm like, this guy is a genius.

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Now let's dive back in.

One of the things I was thinking about as we're doing this, and I'm really trying to put myself in your audience's shoes, my audience's shoes, the community that struggles with this.

One thing that I've definitely seen as I've traveled, and we both have international audiences, is this fear that people have around their accents.

And

that can often make people quite unconfident.

And it's really interesting because obviously when I moved to the States, People really enjoy listening to a British accent in the States.

But where I was growing up in London, to me, the smartest people sounded American accents, professors, Harvard, Princeton Stanford when you heard these professors do TED talks or whatever it was it was always in an American accent and it's almost like in England we grew up on American rap music you grow up to such a culture that our feelings are skewed towards certain accents and so if you're from a country where you feel or a state or anywhere even in the United States you may feel like your accent isn't well received.

How does someone deal with that kind of pressure?

I just believe accents are really a problem.

It's It's really the articulation and the pronunciation that lets people down.

Because

I just feel that accents are beautiful.

I've got students from all over the world, Jay.

And

I love listening to the accent because it tells a story.

It tells me who you are.

Where it lets you down is like when I first came to the U.S., I didn't realize I had so much Australian slang.

And Australians use, like, we shorten all of our words.

It's like, yeah, man, I want to, yeah, maybe I won't.

You know, yeah, all right.

Like, it's just, I didn't realize I was doing so much of that.

And people go, oh, Australian accent is awesome.

Yeah, if I, if I'll talk for a sec, you won't even understand what I'm saying if I don't articulate and pronounce my words correctly.

Yeah.

So I really believe that, and I have this happen all the time in my in-person classes where someone will come and ask that very question and they will have a Polish accent or maybe they'll have an Indian accent.

And then the moment I just get them to over-articulate and practice, all of a sudden it completely changes how they sound.

And here's here's where it happens, Jay.

It's because for me, for example, right?

I learned the Vietnamese language.

So I learned a set of Vietnamese mouth movements.

My big mistake was when I learned English, I used the same set of mouth movements in the Vietnamese language to go speak the English language.

Fascinating.

Right.

So then all of a sudden now, when I speak English, my accent wasn't the problem.

The problem was I wasn't articulating correctly.

So people didn't understand me.

I used to not pronounce my T's.

British people are good with this, but Australians and even Asians, I didn't do it.

So I would say things like, I can't.

I wouldn't pronounce, I can't.

I wouldn't pronounce that.

And then my T's, I would say free.

Oh, can I have three of those?

Instead of three of those.

Yeah.

And then what people were associating with low levels of intelligence was not so much my accent, but it was just because I didn't articulate my words well.

And this can happen in any culture.

This can happen with any accent.

I've heard people with

Chinese accents, Indian accents, Polish accents, Russian accents, but when they articulate their words beautifully, oh man,

it's like you get to listen to a different genre of music.

Otherwise, imagine everyone sounded like us.

Yeah.

There's no flavor.

There's no personality.

Personality.

Again, I do not believe accents are a problem.

I believe the problem lies in your ability to articulate and

your pronunciation.

And here's a quick activity that you can do to help.

Yeah, go for it.

One of the greatest things I learned that my speech pathologist made me do was, first of all, grab a book.

And every single day you grab a book for five minutes, four times a day, if you want to take it real seriously, every time for five minutes, read the book and overdo your lip movements, overdo the tongue movements.

And then if you want to take it to the next level, put a pen in your mouth.

Because if you put a pen in your mouth, you're forced to over-articulate and do it out loud.

And by doing this, you'll start to learn and record yourself while you're doing it too.

You'll start to learn, oh, wow, I struggle with this sound, this consonant, this vowel.

And as you start to bring a little bit of awareness to it you go all right i need to change the way i'm shaping my lips i need to change the way and just going through that process alone i remember doing that for three months wow and i had to do that when i came here to the us

because i slurred my words a lot and in australia you fully understand me farming

right yeah there's no dramas with that eh but over here all of a sudden i was speaking in texas and i still remember speaking in texas for the first time and it was so sweet they're like i love the guy but i i ain't got no idea what he's saying right and it was like this weird thing where, and then I literally had to go see a speech pathologist even later in my life because in Australia, it wasn't a problem.

And I didn't realize it too.

But when I slurred my words that much, it made people think I wasn't smart.

Right.

Right.

And this is why people in the world think the British are so smart.

Is it just the accent or is it because they articulate extremely well?

Right.

Right.

So you can sound smart in any culture, in any,

with any accent.

Should we get a couple of pens?

Yeah.

We should

can you pass us a couple of pens

just just so that people realize

yeah and that we also need to do these like i'm i'm i'm probably gonna contact you straight after this and go vin i'm i'm not kidding you i mean this thank you so much what type of pen does it matter it doesn't matter it doesn't matter it could be a sharpen yeah yeah yeah the thicker the pen the more challenging it is that one i think i've already chewed off let's not give you one that i've already thank you there we go this one does not have bite marks no no no exactly look you can see what i've done with this one

we'll do this for a segment yeah but what i was saying was as soon as we finish this podcast i'm probably going to message you and say vin can you please critique all of my i'm going to send you a speech yeah and and ask you to help me get better because i think the mistake is also that you get there and then you don't need these techniques yeah yeah or that you don't need to improve and that you don't need to work on it practice anymore i think about it all the time so anyway let's let's yeah yeah

can you see how difficult this is very difficult yeah all the suggestion right yeah And I want people to think about this.

Who can you understand better right now?

I'm not sure.

You got to give me more than that, Jay.

Okay, so, Rin,

how are you today?

Feeling a little bit jet lagged because I came all the way from Australia.

Yeah, I just got back from Mexico yesterday.

Oh, that's great.

And I went to a friend's wedding and we had a really good time.

Oh, that's beautiful.

I'm really happy for him.

Oh, so happy for you.

It's in doing these things that you start all of a sudden now that I, now when I speak, I feel like, oh, I'm so sharp.

Totally.

I can feel it too.

Even just from a few moments.

Because you're forced to stretch your mouth so much bigger to make the shapes to be able to create the sounds.

Whereas the biggest problem, and again, this happens in the English language.

When you think about the European languages, the Asian languages, we actually don't have to drop our jaw a lot to speak those languages.

Interesting.

Because when I speak Vietnamese, you know, I can do a lot of Vietnamese with my mouth closed.

I barely have to move my jaw.

English is one of the very few languages where when you think about consciously how you're speaking, you have to drop your jaw so much to speak the English language well.

Whereas, again, the Asian cultures, European languages, you don't have to.

Yes.

Again, each language has a different set of mouth movements.

So by doing that simply alone, you felt it straight away.

Yeah, because you have to move your jaw so much.

Totally.

I can actually feel like we've worked out.

Yeah.

Like that's what it feels like.

And that we did it for 30 seconds.

Absolutely.

And you can keep that pen.

Oh, thank you.

I didn't think you wanted a back pen.

I genuinely feel the difference from such a short period of time.

And I could tell if I did it for longer, it would make an even bigger difference.

Well, imagine you did that for five minutes and you started dedicating yourself to it.

Oh, my goodness, within a week.

Yes.

You'll notice your mouth moving differently.

And you'll notice yourself sounding more clear.

Accents are not a problem.

You've You've got to stop thinking that.

People always go, oh, I hate my accent.

That tells a story.

It's your culture.

It's your history.

It's what makes you unique.

And I always love to think of it as it's different genres of music.

Yes.

And that's what we're seeing in music in the world right now, anyway.

You're seeing languages pour in.

through different artists and people and it's such a need for that.

I wanted to ask you something because this was a big evolution point for me.

So from 11 to 18, I went to public speaking school.

I got the tools is how I like to see it.

But it was only when I met the monks and I started to learn about Eastern wisdom and philosophy that I felt I had something to talk about.

And I wanted to ask you, how much you weight the balance between

what you have to say and how you say it?

Both equally important.

I see some books where I read where they go, no, what you say is more important.

And then some books say, no, how you say it isn't more important.

And I think they kind of have to do this sometimes because they are an expert in one particular arena.

But again, I believe the answer is not which one, it's both, both just as critical.

Same with me.

I think until I found the purpose and the fulfillment from teaching public speaking, I didn't really have much to talk about.

I didn't.

And until I found that, then all of a sudden I started creating content.

Then the content started to take off.

And I think it's because I love how you've positioned what you do here.

It's on purpose.

When I found that purpose and I had the tools and I was able to use my instrument, then all of a sudden the world resonated with that.

Yes.

Whereas before, I did make YouTube videos back in 2008, 2009, just for fun, but they didn't really go anywhere because even though I had decent access to my instrument, it just didn't go anywhere because I wasn't aligned.

You could hear it.

It wasn't on purpose.

Yeah, no, I'm glad I brought that up because I think a lot of people

are struggling with either or.

Like someone may come to you, they may learn all the tools.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then they're going to have to find what they use it for.

And like you said, there may be someone else who actually has lots of knowledge, but then they don't have the tools to share the wisdom or the insight.

And that's generally the student that somehow discovers me.

Right.

It's the one that is, I have something to share with the world.

Right.

But some reason, every time I share it, people misunderstand me.

Every time I share it, it doesn't get the impact that I desire.

And it is the truth because you could have the greatest piece of music written by Beethoven.

But if you play it poorly,

is it the greatest music?

And again, it's so interesting because I understand my students so intimately now where I know what they'll say.

They say things in their life like they go, I'm just going to let my work speak for itself.

Why not speak for your work too?

Well, why can't we do both?

Why are we so linear?

Why can't we do both?

So good.

Right.

And when they realize that, they go, oh, okay, right.

It opens their mind to the whole idea of, I kind of have to take responsibility to shine my light.

I can't wait for someone.

Again, and I remember we have a mutual friend, Mel Robbins, right?

Yes.

Mel helped me with my speaking career.

At the start of my speaking career, Mel used to flick me the gigs.

couldn't afford her and i didn't know

i became the cheap mel robbins for a period so i so i was the cheap mel robbins i didn't know and it was she was amazing and so gracious where well because she she couldn't do those gigs but maybe she was busy as well and she flicked them to me that's how she started my career here in the u.s i didn't know that and and she was one of the people that's that i saw from her content as well early on where she said no one's coming to help you no one's coming to save you That's when it really hit home for me too.

I went,

okay, I'm going to have to go do this myself.

Right.

And you take ownership for that.

And yeah, because when you take ownership, you step into your power.

When you blame others, you kind of lose all of it.

Yeah.

What about someone who comes to you and says, I talk too fast?

How do you teach people to slow down?

Because I think that we're all scared of pauses.

Right.

Everyone's always trying to fill the gaps.

Even if you're in a conversation with someone, we don't like pauses.

I've for years had to practice the ability to say, it's okay if I need to look away, if I need to think, if I need to reflect, if I actually just need to take something in, whether I'm on a podcast, on stage or in a private meeting, how do we get comfortable with slowing down and pausing rather than trying to fill all the space?

Because that's such a natural thing to do.

The first thing I would say, if you speak really fast, well done for being aware that you do, most people are not aware of it, is a lot of it is to do with your

mindset and the state of mind that you're in.

When do you think people speak really fast?

When they're feeling what?

When they're nervous, can you feel that?

anxious, anxious, et cetera, right?

So you've got to, you kind of kind of have to address it at the core there.

So what you need to do is you have to identify when are you speaking fast?

In which situations are you speaking fast?

Oh, it's when I'm in a job interview.

Oh, it's when I'm going in for my quarterly review.

Well, great.

Now you know in these isolated situations, the triggers are high-pressure situations.

Okay, cool.

That means before you go into those situations, you need to still your mind and your body.

Again, it comes back to breathing.

I couldn't believe it, but there were workshops that I was invited to and I did some of them.

I couldn't believe we could spend three to four days on breathing.

And then I found out there was a seven-day workshop on breathing.

I went, seven days?

There's so much profound wisdom in the breath.

And I did not understand it until I started learning more about it.

So again, breathing.

Before you go in,

go with the Wim Hof breathing.

And that will slow down your mind and slow down your body.

And then all of a sudden, it slows down your speech.

The next thing is adrenaline also causes you to speed and speak really quickly.

So before you go into a presentation or something that's making you nervous, get rid of the adrenaline.

Some brisk walking, do a couple of push-ups, do some star jumps.

I know you call them jumping jacks here in the US.

Yeah, mate.

It's not called a jumping jack.

It's a star jump, mate.

So do it.

We call it star jumps in English.

Oh, you do?

Yeah.

Americans have it wrong.

Who the hell is Jack?

So all of a sudden, do 20 star jumps, right?

And when you do that, you get rid of all the adrenaline.

The adrenaline is what makes you shake and also what makes you speak really quickly.

Because when you start to shake, it's sending signals to your brain that you're nervous.

Now you start to think you're nervous.

And then when you think you're nervous, now you're speaking really quickly, right?

So again, these things help slow you down.

Now, those are things you can do before you're going.

One last thing you can do before you're going, actually, is what makes us really nervous is being self-conscious.

But you can only be self-conscious if you're thinking about yourself.

So then stop thinking about yourself and realize it was not about you.

If you're going on stage, it's not about you.

It's about every single person you're going to serve.

And I'll be honest with you too, coming here, I felt a bit nervous, right?

But then I thought to myself, well, it's not about me.

It's about me trying to add as much value as I can to Jay's audience.

And it's about Jay.

I want to connect with Jay.

And the moment I made it about you and I made it about the audience we're about to serve, I had no cognitive capacity left to be nervous because I'm not thinking about myself.

So to me, these three small tools, you got the breathing, get rid of the adrenaline and mindset shift, it helps calm you down.

And now when you go in, if you find yourself racing in it, then pause and take a deep breath.

And that's how you can remedy it.

Because if you go in, you're like, oh, I'm here.

I'm really excited.

You take a deep breath and then continue speaking.

And right after the deep breath, it's going to slow your speech right down.

Even when I did it there.

All of a sudden feel more relaxed now.

Yeah.

The reason people aren't comfortable with the pause is because they don't know what the pause is for.

Right.

And when you think the pause is useless, that's why you develop the behavior of filling the pause.

Always talking.

Non-filler words as well.

And so liked, you know what I mean?

We do that because we don't understand the power of the pause.

Whereas the pause allows people to process what you're saying.

Think about it now, listeners, as you're listening to that, the moment I paused, You just did it again.

You had a moment to process the things that I was saying.

If I just talk really quickly and I don't pause at all when I'm talking, all of of a sudden now everything that I say has no clear points because you don't have any time to process anything that I'm saying.

All of a sudden, everything after a while becomes mumbo jumbo.

Right?

It just becomes nothing.

100%.

Whereas pausing gives people time to process.

Pausing gives you time to breathe so that you can relax, so that you don't speak too quickly.

There are so many benefits to it.

I mean, think of music again.

I love using music analogies because.

The most important note in an orchestra happens after a crescendo, which is what?

Silence.

They'll build the peak and then all of a sudden the musicians will play and play and it'll get to this peak moment and then just

nothing.

And the audience is in awe of what they just experienced.

You speak about it so powerfully and it's so convincing.

I'm like, this is,

this has to hit because I applied that even and that come back to Zoom calls, meetings, everything.

I think it's so important to not feel feel that the person who talks the fastest is the one who will get their point in and i think that's sometimes the thing of like hey guys so i just really want to share this with you because if we just if we just did this this would solve everything like this is the thing and it's almost like you've actually lost all importance because of that pace also because there's no clarity yes if people don't process anything that you say

there's no clarity yes You have to think about communication is not what I just send, it's how it's being received.

Right?

It's not, oh, I've sent it, it's done, it's out there.

What do you think?

I don't even remember what you said.

Yeah.

And I think, I think that's a, that's a big mistake.

And often people do that again because they don't understand that

the way you deliver has an impact on how others receive.

Yeah.

I really appreciate your switch to the audience consciousness versus the us consciousness

because it seems really small.

It seems really obvious.

It seems kind of, of course, that makes sense.

But it really is everything.

Because all of a sudden, if you're thinking about being impressive,

that's a really hard place to live from because now you're judging every word that comes out of your mouth and judging whether it's impressive, whether it's powerful, whether it's profound, whether it's whatever it is.

And now you actually have no thinking space to actually be profound, impressive and all those things you wanted to be.

It's just not possible.

Whereas if you were thinking, hey, what's that person in the audience struggling with?

What are they really struggling with?

What's their challenge?

What's the thing that, and that's why, that's how we started this conversation.

I was like, what's everyone worried about when they come to you?

Because to me, that's the most important thing.

And if I know that what they're worried about is their accent, their voice, their whatever it may be, now all of a sudden I can address that.

And I can speak to that.

And actually, I can make them aware that I'm aware of that.

And that's the same in a meeting.

I think sometimes if someone said to me in a meeting, Jay, I know that you really want the podcast to be a special place for people

to

really learn, grow, and heal.

I know that it's a big priority in your life.

And I know that it's something that you've put your heart into for six years.

This is how to make it better.

All of a sudden, I'm like, I'm all ears because I feel like you actually get where I'm at and where I'm coming from.

Whereas if someone said, hey, you know what?

I've just got this really great idea I want to share with you.

All of us, I'm like, well, I don't know if it's a great idea or not because I don't even know if we're on the same page.

And so walk me through some of the ways people can establish by what they're saying and how they,

you did this beautiful video.

Well, you were on stage, but I loved it.

I absolutely loved it.

And I realized I do it unconsciously.

And when I saw you explain it, I was like, there you go.

That's why, that's why you're such a great coach and such a great teacher.

It was that idea of meeting people where they're at.

And you were saying that when people come to you and they're like, oh, Vin, you're amazing on stage and you were great.

And they speak really quietly.

And you said, if you come back at that and go, yeah, what did you like about it?

Or even worse, like, oh, thank you so much.

Oh, because you bring, sometimes you bring that stage persona straight down.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And

how did I learn that?

Because that's what I started with.

Yeah.

And you see them just go

and then they freak out.

But that's what I wanted to ask you.

So how do we do that in a meeting?

How do we do that in our daily life?

Yeah.

Where sometimes what we're saying, but also how we're saying it, we're not even giving it the importance it deserves.

How do we establish more authority and influence when we are sharing an idea, when we are proposing a method?

You've heard a lot of body language experts say you match and mirror people.

Yes.

Right.

To build rapport, to make it about them, to build a connection.

You match and mirror their body language.

But what a lot of people don't realize is you can also match and mirror their vocal foundations.

So when you think about the voice and you divide it into five different categories and you think it from the perspective of rate of speech, volume, pitch and melody, tonality, and the pause, now all of a sudden you have these five factors that you can start to think about when you're talking to people.

So if someone comes up to you and they're naturally speaking a little bit quickly because they're nervous, right, like that, and they're speaking a little bit lower volume and the melody is not as great of a range.

And you notice these things, then you match and you mirror where they are with their voice too.

And then people immediately feel like, oh, you're approachable.

Yes.

And it's not that we stay there because some people go, oh, but that's, that's inauthentic.

That's not right.

No, no, that's you being a great and dynamic communicator.

That's you going, hey, I'm going to meet you where you are to make you feel comfortable, to build connection, to make it about you.

Meet them where they are, and then slowly you take them back out.

So if you're meeting them where they are, you go, oh, hey, thank you for coming up and saying hello.

But hey,

can I just ask you quickly too?

What did you really take away?

What was the key thing you took away?

Oh, you took that away.

Oh, that's awesome.

Hey, I'm so happy that you came up and had a chat with me.

All of a sudden now, once you're in rapport, you can take them to where you want to go.

And that's something you can take on tour.

Zoom call, you meet them where they are, right?

If someone's really excited about an idea they want to bring to you, you can meet them there with that excitement to show them respect, right?

As opposed to a lot of the times previously in my life, someone will come to me really excited and I have one gear, Jay.

And I'm just one gear.

I'm like, oh, that sounds really cool.

Yeah, that's great.

Awesome, man.

And I didn't realize that.

Then all of a sudden, I made them feel less important.

Whereas now, all of a sudden, I've learned that, ah, when someone comes to me with a peak emotion, even if it's frustration, I will mirror that for them to show them that, hey, I feel you.

It's like, oh, man, that sucks.

Right.

So it's not just in the words that I use.

I deliver it in a way so they can hear that I'm with you and I'm on the same page.

Yes.

So one of the fastest ways to build rapport with people.

Yeah.

I think that's so important because you could start up a Zoom call and someone turns up and they're in a really sad, low mood.

Yeah.

And in your head, you're thinking, come on, like, come on, bring more energy.

Right.

And it, and then you get frustrated.

Yeah.

And now you feel you're dragging them up a hill.

Whereas if you were like, hey, I just want to check in with you.

You're all right.

Yeah.

How's it going?

You lower your volume too.

Yeah.

You meet them where they are.

You're like, hey, you know, I noticed on the other call, you weren't, are you okay?

And all of a sudden, people are way more likely to open up if you used your instrument in that way, as opposed to, oh, mate, what's going on?

Yeah.

Oh, it's going on, man.

Come on.

Look at the weather outside.

It's amazing today.

What's going on?

They're definitely not opening up to that person.

But I didn't have that sensitivity growing up.

No sensitivity.

I didn't know why so many of my relationships when I was young would fail.

Like I remember one of my partners when I was really young, where I would ask her, I'd say to her on a Friday night, I'm like, hey, I know we've got dinner plans tonight, but the guys are doing a LAN party and we're going to go play C.S.

Go.

Can I go?

And she'll go, yeah, fine, just go then.

And I just went, you are the most amazing

girlfriend in, I thought you would have said no.

And then I went, next day she broke up with me.

And I'm like, why?

And I'll listen to Backstreet Boys and I'll be like, why did you break up with me?

But she said yes.

And that's when I went through that era.

I was like, women are so confusing.

It doesn't make sense.

You said I could go.

And it was because I wasn't listening to the emotion in the voice.

I didn't even have that gear, man.

I just saw what people said.

Oh, that's it.

I take you for, you said so.

It's fine.

So it's fine.

And we justify it.

Yeah.

We think, no, but you did say that.

But you did yes.

Yeah, I know I did, but that's not the point.

And then, yeah, yeah.

But again, all of a sudden, having the sensitivity now, I've got so many different gears now, Jay.

And that's the analogy I love to use too, is that because sometimes a lot of people feel that oh there's only one version of me and jay this is the only version of me and i'm this version of me in every situation that's like having a car with one gear we are so much more dynamic than as a human being and i get my students to think about this all the time think about when you're angry you use your voice differently you use your body language differently when you've done something wrong And when I've done something, like I've maybe stayed out with the guys too late one night, I come home, I talk different to my wife.

I'm like, I know.

Yep, I'm sorry.

And I'm very sheepish.

You're different when you've done something wrong.

We use our instrument differently in every single one of those situations.

But when we don't consciously think about it, sometimes we can default to just one gear.

I shopped to the interview the exact same way.

I shopped and we shop in just one rigid gear.

And we go, why am I not standing out?

Why don't I get more attention?

Why don't I get that promotion that I deserve?

Yeah.

You've got to learn to be more dynamic.

I'm really glad you made that point because I was saying that to you earlier, when I'm on the podcast, I'm a certain way because it's a conversation.

But when I'm on stage, I get the license to be funny and

banter with people and bring people in the audience into that conversation because I can.

Yeah, you're a big version of you.

Totally.

I always say that when I'm on stage, I'm the 360 version of myself because I get to be all things to everyone that I want to be.

Whereas here, I'm having a one-to-one conversation.

This is...

kind of what I'm like when I'm having a one-to-one conversation with a friend, a family member, whatever it may be, because that's my natural way of being.

And then if I'm making a video where there's no people yeah i find it that's like the most minimal version of me oh really yeah because it's to me it's all about energy exchange yes so if i'm in a room full of 10 20 30 people maybe 10 000 people there's so much energy to play with it can be fun it can be this it could be that when i'm with you we're matching each other's energy and then if i'm on my own and there's just a camera then i can think about who's going to watch it but really i'm only letting one percent of me be me for me for me i'm saying i'm not saying that's the way for everyone.

Yeah, no, but it brings up a really important insight that I learned along the way.

And it's that be as big as the room.

Yes.

And you notice how sometimes people do this incorrectly.

And I used to be one of those people.

Tell me how you do that incorrectly.

Well, because when I first learned about all this, I went, oh, wow, this is amazing.

I'm going to bring this.

And then I'll bring this to this.

And then people are like, ah, it's a little bit of a wanker.

That's a bit much, don't you think?

And I used to do that because I had no sensitivity.

I just thought, oh, no, this is really good.

I should be like this all the time.

And then I realized, oh, wow, no, no, no.

Just that simple rule of be as big as the room.

Again, the version of you, I'm assuming, if you're in front of 10,000 people, imagine we're in front of 10,000 people and we went and we're like, oh, hey, everyone, it's great to be here.

And I'm excited to, it won't work.

It won't work, right?

Unless you're Eckhart Tolle, then it's totally fine.

That's on brand, right?

Whereas all of a sudden, you need to bring a much bigger version of you, but you have to develop that sensitivity.

Whereas I see sometimes when my students who are new to communication with yours, they miss the mark.

And And usually they're too small.

Yes.

More often than not, they have this fear, I'm going to be too much.

No, no, no.

The danger is not you're too much.

The danger is that you've been living way too small.

For me, it's always about pushing them up.

But the fear they have is, oh, but it's too much.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's too little.

You're playing too small.

Right.

So again, that sensitivity is important to develop.

When you're with 30 people, it's a different version of you.

And it's okay because you have to be a bigger version of you to be effective in that medium.

Yes.

Otherwise, it will seem like you don't care.

Otherwise, sometimes it can come across like you don't care.

It's such an art.

And what we're talking about is obviously the spectrum of, you know, the kind of like the expertise, the mastery, all the way through to the challenge.

And it does blow my mind that public speaking comes out as the number one fear in the world.

And 75% of the world's population is scared of public speaking.

And it's something we have to do every single day.

And people think, but I'm not on stage.

Yeah, but anytime you open your mouth in public, that's public speaking.

Right.

It is public speaking.

Yeah.

You're publicly speaking every single day.

And that also shows an opportunity, Jay.

If 75% of people fear it, that means only one in four people kind of do it.

So if you can get good at this skill, you now have a competitive edge.

And one of the greatest things that I've noticed is that why do creators become such great communicators?

They do.

I mean, watch creators.

Why do they become such great communicators?

It's because they film themselves every single day and they watch it back and they notice behaviors that serve them and they notice behaviors that don't serve them.

And then they remove the behaviors that don't serve them.

Because one of these things that I ask a lot of creators, I always ask them, I'm like, so what formal communication training did you do?

And they're like, what?

What are you talking about?

And I'm like, I had to learn so many years to learn.

And from that simple process, that's why I want to bring it back again for the listeners, right?

That simple process.

If you just committed to the process of recording yourself once a week, you will now have one of the competitive edges that all creators have.

They're impeccable communicators.

And why do you keep going back to the creators that you love every single week?

You keep watching every video.

It's because they're able to form a connection with you.

What skill are they using to form that connection with you?

The ability to communicate and articulate ideas with clarity.

So all of a sudden now, you kind of see that hidden secret there.

Yeah.

Where it's about they just keep putting in the reps.

It's I never even put two and two together.

It's such a great point that they're actually practicing that exact method.

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Now let's dive back in.

When I left the monastery and I got a job at Accenture, we had someone come in and do public speaking training while we were at the company.

I wish it was you.

It wasn't.

Yeah, I would have been terrible at it at the time.

No, no, no.

But they had us film ourselves and it was really interesting to me.

I believed at that point that I was, I was, I was, I wouldn't say I was a seasoned speaker, but I was a very experienced speaker because even as a monk, I gave, you know, three-hour lectures.

every day.

And so there was a lot of speaking involved in teaching from scripture and wisdom and the literatures that we had.

But it was really interesting.

As a monk, I would sit and speak.

Like you'd sit on a low, it's called a Vyasasan in the Indian language.

I don't know what it would be described as.

I guess it's a very low bench.

Like you may have seen it in movies or whatever it may be.

It's just very, very low and it's a small seat.

And so you're sitting cross-legged, lotus position, and your hands are usually in there.

And you may use some hand gestures, but generally they're rested and it's a smaller group.

I would stand and talk if I was giving a talk to university students, which I did while I was a monk as well.

And maybe there'd be a circle of people.

But then we videoed ourselves and it was really interesting.

I found myself in that video just doing this the whole time.

And then I watched that video back and I found that that's all I did with my hands at that time.

And it was so powerful to be able to see how you, and it looked so cringe, right?

It just, but it was like every time I made a point, I'd do this and then I'd come back to here.

And that's a very like, you know, as a monk, our palms wouldn't actually be rested in meditation, whatever.

And it was so interesting how I'd taken that habit

into my work life.

Oh, right.

Right.

And I was giving a corporate talk at the time.

And, but what I'm saying is, I'm reiterating the point of needing to film yourself speaking.

Like, I, I stand by it fully.

And I think you're spot on making people do it.

It's so cool to geek out on this.

Yes.

You've had so much training in this arena.

Right now, even as you listen to this, to the listener, you already know what great communication looks like because you've been to a conference and a speaker walks out on stage.

Within 10 seconds, you now make a decision whether you're listening or you're not 100%.

And you'd make a big decision whether you're going to go to your now social media feed or not, right?

So there are certain cues that you recognize as being cues that are engaging.

Oh, the way they're using their voice, I'm in.

The way they're using their body language.

Oh, I'm in.

Right.

So you already have all of that information in your mind, but here's where it gets interesting.

You've never applied any of those ideas in your head to yourself.

So you'll be shocked because, again, when you all of a sudden watch yourself, you go, oh no,

I come across like Barry.

Oh, no.

Sorry to the Barry's out there.

Just picked a random name.

But again, they go, oh, no, I come across like Barry.

But that's because, again, you've been avoiding this your entire life.

Yeah.

And the reason why I wanted to bring it up again, I'm so glad you brought it up again, is because if there's one thing you do, if you listen to this episode, is record a video of yourself.

And you'll thank Jay and I later because you'll see things that you didn't realize you know.

You have so much beautiful knowledge already in your mind about what makes a great communicator because why are you drawn to a certain YouTube video and a certain creator?

You've already have these internal references in your mind of what great communication is for you.

Yes.

And all of a sudden now you get to apply the same list of things to yourself.

Do you know how cool that is?

That is so cool.

And

which brings me to my next point where my students ask me, they go, well, well, then how do I become myself though?

How do I find my because I always talk about this present version of you and you're way too attached to it.

Let go of the present version of you.

Give the future version of you a chance.

And they go, well, well, how do we make that transition?

Well, I say, look, first of all, just record yourself.

But then after that, as you begin this journey, I view the journey of being a great communicator like the journey of becoming a great chef.

So how would you become a great chef?

You would go out and you would look for a great chef and you would look for one of the recipes.

You'd buy the recipe book and then you'd copy their recipe.

Right.

And then at the beginning, you copy the recipe almost exactly and then you start cooking it and you eat it and you go, I didn't think that's what the chef was intending.

So you copy a little closer and you go, oh, I did the method wrong.

And then as you copy closer, you go, oh, wow, that tastes amazing.

And then as you cook it a few more times, you gain the confidence now to go, you know what?

I'm going to add a little more chili.

I got to say that the chef didn't put enough chili.

You put a bit more chili, you put a little lemon, you put a little bit of more garlic, onion, everything.

And now you make it your own.

Same thing with communication skills.

Yes.

If you want to get some inspiration, go look up your top five communicators.

Yeah.

And then sit down, watch a view, break it down.

What are they doing that you love so much?

Try those behaviors on.

Now you have an ocean of different behaviors to play with.

And you'll try some of them on.

You go, that's not me.

Like, same with me.

When I first started speaking on stage, I admired Anthony Robbins so much.

I was like, wow, because I read his books, it changed my life.

And I was like, I'm going to try to be like Anthony Robbins.

And I jumped up and I did it.

And it felt so wrong because I was like, this is not me.

But that was okay.

I had to have done that to know it wasn't for me.

I had to have eaten that dish to know I didn't like the flavor.

But too many of us judge it before we try it.

Absolutely.

I'm not even going to try that dish.

No, try it.

Yeah.

Because that's how I discovered some of my favorite dishes in my life was I resisted it.

I tried it, loved it.

Loved it after that.

Right.

So again, start looking up a list of five communicators that you love and then just pick a few different things from them and try it on.

It's all right.

We share one of our favorite communicators, which is a bit more obscure that most people may not be aware of and may not see see him as a communicator, it's Darren Brown.

Oh, I think Darren is absolutely...

Darren is my favorite person on stage to watch.

Showmanship.

Yeah.

Showmanship is a magician's fancy word for communication skills.

Unbelievable.

Unbelievable.

Yeah.

Showmanship.

Unbelievable.

Everything.

Everything.

From the humor to the pacing to the body language to when to sit, when to stand.

Stagecraft.

Mastery.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It makes you want to give up magic when you see someone like that.

He's too good.

He's too good.

For sure, for sure.

And I remember doing a a trip to the UK.

My wife, my wife likes Darren Brown.

She doesn't love Darren Brown.

Same sentence this year.

We followed him to three cities

to watch the same show.

So that's why my wife couldn't stand it anymore by the end of it.

But I watched the same show three times.

I loved it even more the third time.

What you talked about before, his ability to execute what they call planned spontaneity is unbelievable.

That is such a skill.

Like your comedian friend.

Yes.

Even though it happens nearly every night, people think it's random.

Yes.

But it happens every night.

Plan spontaneity.

He made it look spontaneous every single time.

And I appreciated every moment of that.

I was like, how did you make that look even more fresh than the first two times?

It's incredible.

But that's what it is.

I love hearing that story that you went there three times, even though you knew what trick it was going to do.

It's the same thing.

Because that's what you're doing.

You're studying the art of what worked.

And then the other speech that I love, probably my favorite, favorite, favorite speech of all time that I've listened to the most at least, is Steve Jobs' Stanford commencement speech.

Oh, wow.

And it's a really interesting speech because there's no body gestures.

There's no use of hands.

There's nothing.

It's potentially even monotonous.

I think he speaks at the same volume pretty much the whole time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But there's something just so profound.

His voice is phenomenal.

Talk to me through why that works.

Why are so many people love that speech?

Apart from it being Steve Jobs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because

I don't like to be like, oh, it was a good speech because it was steve everyone loved it no no no there was still something i mean the content's insane but again think of think of it from the perspective of music yeah right there are times that lyrics can be so powerful yeah

that the way you play that song is irrelevant because the lyrics of it speak to your heart yes it's so strong that it doesn't matter how you play it hits you.

And that's where you can lean into the content.

There is some content that is just so powerful that regardless of delivery, it hits because of the profound nature that exists within the lyrics.

And then I've seen pianists play Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, and I was flabbergasted.

One of the most basic songs you've ever heard.

And the way they added chords to it and the rhythm and the way they re un I've never heard Twinkle Twinkle Little Star like that.

So you can take something basic and use delivery to make it amazing, or you could take something truly profound and have no delivery delivery and is just as amazing.

And that's the beauty of music.

That's the beauty of poetry

and art.

And it's the beauty of that, right?

And you just have to determine for you with what you're currently doing, does it have that level of profoundness?

And can you keep that level of profoundness that consistently throughout this life where you can just forget about delivery?

And if you can, damn, good for you.

That's amazing.

Yeah, Vistine Jobs.

Yeah, Vistine Jobs.

That's incredible.

And everything you say is that potent, then you don't have to worry about your communication skills.

Because one of the, I'm sure you get this you get trolls but i always have trolls on my content where they're like oh yeah but then what about elon musk he doesn't have to worry what about his communication skills and i always say and i shouldn't ever respond to this but sometimes i get a bit cheeky and i do and i go listen mate if you're as smart and intelligent as elon musk forget about communication skills just get us to mask make us a multi-planetary species right like forget about it please please save the human race but if you're a mere mortal like me then you probably should work on this skill but you know what i mean yeah

So again, and sometimes, and sometimes you're right.

Sometimes when you have something that profound, you also want to let go of some of the bells and whistles.

I agree.

You want to let go of some of that.

Yes.

It's a delivery choice and a delivery style.

Yeah.

A good balance one that I've seen is Matthew McConaughey's Oscar speech when he accepted for Dallas Buyers Club.

It's like that perfect balance between he's, I mean, he's, he's got an amazing voice, phenomenal orator and communicator.

And at the same time, the content's so profound.

And so you see a great marriage of the two in that one, where there's showmanship, there's performance and there's potency.

Yeah.

And, and you're right.

I agree with you.

I, I only brought up the Steve Jobs one because, and I love the way you explained it.

I'm so glad I asked it because that idea of the lyrics just being so profound, really just read it.

Realize he literally read it off a piece of paper and you're listening to every single word.

I mean, you know, it's, it's so powerful.

I was going to ask you, people can sense when something feels inauthentic.

What are we sensing?

Misalignment.

However, when it comes to communication alone, it's usually people trying something out that they haven't really ironed out yet.

And I hope this is not nauseating and people aren't starting to vomit in the back of their throats at this point.

But when somebody first plays the saxophone, how's it sound, Jay?

Yeah, no, great.

Yeah, I have one of those neighbors.

Yeah, it's fine.

It's fine.

I find it very sweet.

It's a young kid learning how to play, right?

And do you ever sit for a moment and going, that is the most inauthentic saxophone player I've ever heard in my life?

No.

What a fake saxophone player.

No, you go, that person's learning.

And I'm just making it communication related.

Yeah, I love it.

So when I have my students try out things for the first time and they're doing things like this, right?

So they first learn volume.

They go, ah, I've been speaking with a low volume my whole life.

So then they go, okay, I'm going to try to talk like this.

Okay.

And I've just learned hand gestures.

So I'm going to, I'm going to try to, people immediately look at that and go, inauthentic.

Yes.

You're doing something that's not authentic to you.

No, no, no, no.

I'm like, stop.

That is someone just starting to learn how to play the saxophone.

And the moment you call them inauthentic and fake, do you know what what happens to them?

They now revert to the same behaviors they've been repeating for the last 30 years of their life.

It's such an intricate moment for someone when they're choosing to play their instrument in a different way that

you've got to help them move towards the future version of them, Jay, right?

And that's what we sense that

inauthentic part, where we go, oh, this person, I feel like they've been inauthentic.

You don't know the backstory.

Maybe this person is trying to be heard because their entire life they've been invisible.

And the way that they're trying on this new way of speaking is because they're just testing out the instrument in a different way.

And you just caught them on a bad day.

You just caught them when they were playing poorly.

And I think we need a little more of that compassion.

Yeah.

We need a little more of that empathy because I've approached that and I've made those judgments before myself too.

But I've also been through that messy middle where when I spoke, again, I was like a robot.

And again, I knew that people were judging me.

But if I didn't have the courage in that moment to push through, then I would still be the same version of me from 15 years ago.

So I feel that from a communication context, when you're trying to improve, when people sense that in you, it's just you learning how to play the saxophone.

It's okay.

So all you got to do is this.

All you got to do is this.

Before you start to play with your voice and your body differently and you start to improve the way you communicate, prime your conversations.

Say, say to your partner, say to your neighbor before you learn the saxophone, say, hey, listen, I've been inspired by listening to Vin and Jay on the podcast and I want to change the way I use my voice.

Okay.

I've been quiet my entire life.

I want to give you and the kids more energy.

If you see me speaking with more volume, can you encourage me?

Because I want to be more.

I want to give more.

All of a sudden, if you give that context now, the next time you're like, hey, honey, I'm home.

And she was like, oh, hey, it's so good to see you trying.

Now with that context, they support you.

Without the context, if you just immediately come home, they go, ugh.

I know what they'll say.

They go, why are you doing that with your voice?

Why are you doing that with your voice?

Why are you doing that?

Yeah.

And it's because something my vocal coach used to say too, she used to say this.

She goes, your voice is your personality.

And I used to, I'm like, what?

And she goes, no, no, no, your voice is your personality, Vin.

When people compliment you on your personality, the literal thing they're complimenting is how you're playing your instrument.

Interesting.

Because that's how we perceive personality.

We perceive personality through the use of the instrument.

Personality comes through music.

That's why you can listen to a soundtrack.

I do this experiment with my kids, not only my kids, but my students too.

I love doing this experiment where I just play a piano track and I get them to listen to it.

And I go, what words come to mind?

And it's crazy.

They'll say things like, my students will say things like, oh, I hear complexity.

I hear drama.

I hear, oh, I hear pain.

I hear misery.

I hear nostalgia.

And I always wake them up to it.

And I go, do you know there were no words in that?

None.

None whatsoever.

Yet you've got a world of meaning from that.

People get a world of meaning just from the sound of your voice and how you use your voice.

So if you pay no attention to that, that means you're you're putting no intention into how you're coming across.

Yeah, and I love that point, man.

And I love your heart for saying that too, that so much of the time when we think someone's inauthentic, it's really just inexperience.

They're trying something new.

Yeah, they're trying something new.

They're boring.

And we always look at it and we judge them and we think, oh, they're fake.

And half the time it's just someone trying to figure something out.

And then what we don't realize we're doing is then we give them negative feedback.

that immediately puts them into the same patterns of behavior that has been causing them pain because we're not as compassionate.

We what they do, we don't see why they do what they do.

Right.

Whereas I think if we took a moment to go, why would that person do that?

Oh, maybe they're exploring their instrument.

Right.

And I think, I think it was Carl Jung that said that again.

We see what people do.

We don't see why

they do what they do.

Vin, it's been such a joy talking to you, man.

You are, you're brilliant.

You're not just a brilliant communicator.

You've got a great heart too.

And it comes across in the way you want to help people and see them grow.

And the amount that you've thought through the challenges, the trip-ups, all the blocks that we run into, man.

It's really beautiful.

And I really thank you and commend you for your amazing work.

And

it's very special.

So thank you, man.

Jay, thank you for giving me the opportunity.

I'm from Adelaide, South Australia.

I never thought that I'd ever be able to connect with you in person and hang out with you, Jay.

This is unreal.

Thank you for the opportunity.

No, man, I'm a fan, so it's easy.

We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five.

These have to be answered in one word to to one sentence maximum.

Are you serious?

Yeah, so you can't.

This is my Kriftan.

So you can't.

You can't.

You can't.

Yeah.

I'll probably break it for you because you're such a good explainer.

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

I'll let you do it.

No, no, no, no, I won't.

I'm going to try to stick to the, hey, rules are rules.

Okay.

Rules are rules.

The first question, what's the best piece of communication advice you've ever heard or received?

Your voice is an instrument.

Play all of the songs.

that are trapped within you.

Don't die with all your music trapped inside.

That was a great sentence.

It's a long sentence.

It's a great sentence.

Long sentences are fine.

Second question, what's the worst communication advice you've ever heard received or given?

If you're nervous, just look over their heads.

I was literally given that advice.

What are you meant?

You can expand.

What are you meant to do?

Well, again, you want to look at people, look at them in the eyes, because the advice was look over their heads.

They won't be able to tell.

And this was my first piece of advice I was given when I was going on stage.

And I started looking over people's heads and they just looked like I was arrogant, right?

Because I was like, oh, hey, everyone, good to see you.

And I wasn't looking them in the eyes.

Terrible.

And also, you get no feedback.

You have no energetic exchange.

Well, the worst thing is it's that.

And then you look like an arrogant person.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I never thought about that.

All right.

Question number three: on that point, why does our body and our hands shake when we're nervous?

It's the excess adrenaline.

And you have the remedy to that in this episode already.

Star jumps.

I love it.

Question number four:

What's something that you used to believe was true about communication, but not anymore?

That I was stuck with the sound of my voice.

It's just a series of behaviors.

If you change the behaviors, you change the sound.

Example, when I told my dad I wanted to leave accounting to become a magician, I remember what he said.

He said, what the hell you want to be to Harry Potter?

Literally what he said to me.

I just changed the way I moved my mouth.

I just changed a series of behaviors.

I changed the sound I was able to create.

It's just behaviors.

Walk me through that conversation.

Yeah, so my mom and dad are refugees in Vietnam, and

they cling to safety and security because of fear, and they've known fear all of their lives.

So I remember coming home saying to my mum and dad, I said, mum, dad, I really want to quit university.

And obviously they wanted me to fulfill the Asian prophecy.

Obviously, same with your parents.

Yes.

I'm sure.

I had this really heart-to-heart conversation with them where I said, mum, dad, why did you escape the war?

Why?

And

they said, we escaped because we want to find a better home for you.

But I'm like, yeah, yeah, but why?

Why was Vietnam at the time not a good home?

Why is Australia a better home?

And they said, freedom.

And I said, oh, great.

So

you made the decision to flee to Australia for freedom.

Then do you want to force me into a career that's going to create misery for me?

Is that what you want?

And I know why you're doing this because of love, mum and dad, because

you're so afraid, but we're not in Vietnam anymore.

We're in Australia and we're free.

And I know that the reason you came here is to give me the freedom to do what I love.

And I was able to wake them up from

fear and remember the main reason why they came here in the first place, because their lives were driven by fear of not enough, of we're in danger.

And they still carried all of that fear.

They didn't realize it.

And when I woke them up to that, it was such a beautiful conversation because it was almost like my parents were reminded.

They're like, no, no, thank you for reminding us.

We've been so driven by fear our entire lives.

Because I said to them, I did work experience at an accounting firm.

And dad, do you know what they all do on a Friday night?

They go drinking because they're drowning their sorrows in something they don't like.

And I'm sure people love accounting.

It's just where I did work experience, they didn't love it.

They dread it every day,

right?

And I said, That's me.

That's going to be me.

That's the path I'm walking.

So I already know that's not the path, you know?

And then the most beautiful thing my dad said to me after realizing all of this is he goes,

You still owe me one thing, though, boy.

In this life, you have to jump as high as you can.

And as long as I'm alive, I'll forever be your net.

Wow.

And I needed that net a lot of times.

Oh, yeah.

I tested that net many times.

And I share this now in a long answer because,

Jay, I'm sitting here having achieved things I've achieved because of my mom and my dad.

Without that net, without their support, without their love, without their guidance, I wouldn't be here.

I wouldn't have been able to do this.

And I think this is true for those listening too.

You would not be where you are if it wasn't for whether it's the families we choose or the families we're born into.

If it wasn't for them, we would not be who we are, we would not be where we are.

They must be really proud now.

Yeah, they still, and then you quit magic.

The first time my dad came and saw me speak at the end of it, the funniest thing, he comes up to me and he goes,

They pay you for this.

He was so mind-blown because he goes, because I wouldn't.

He was just, he was so shocked.

He couldn't believe that they, he couldn't believe it was a thing.

He couldn't believe that professional speaking was a career path.

But it's so beautiful to see their mind open up.

And the most beautiful thing my dad said to me recently, this was maybe in the last five years, where he came up to me and he said, thanks for not giving up on me.

Because there was a lot of conversations at the time in many different Vietnamese families where the kids would give up on their parents, where it'd be like, you know what, if you're not supporting me, stuff you.

I'm out.

Whereas I really didn't give up on my parents.

I remember my first magic gig I did and I made like 1500 bucks for performing for an hour.

This was like outrageous.

This is a week's worth of work, right?

And I brought home the cash and I was like, dad, look, I got this in an hour.

And I celebrated that moment with him.

I made him a part of that because I knew that I had to slowly show him what's possible.

I couldn't all of a sudden go, dad, refugee, been through the war and immediately say, magician.

To him, it's like, what the frick is that?

That doesn't make sense.

But as I slowly shared my wins with him on my journey, I was able to open my dad's mind.

So my dad got to be a part of the journey with me and my mom.

And when he thanked me for that, it was one of the sweetest moments because he could have very easily gave up on me.

And now we have this beautiful relationship.

And it's one of my most important relationships.

Yeah.

That's beautiful, man.

Thank you for sharing that.

That counts as one word.

No, no, no.

I wanted to hear it.

I wanted to.

Fifth and final question.

We asked this to every guest who's ever been on the show.

If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Use your instrument to spread more love, kindness, and compassion.

Vin Jiang, thank you so much.

Such an honor having you here.

I hope I get to do this many, many more times together.

Thank you, Jay.

If all of you are listening and watching, if you don't already follow Vin on social media, we will put all the links in the comments.

Go and follow him across TikTok, Instagram, all platforms.

I really hope that this episode makes you a better communicator to your partner, your parents, in your profession, in all areas of your life.

It's such a key skill that's needed.

And I would love to see on Instagram and TikTok, the clips, the moments, the parts that really stood out to you.

Tag us both so we can see what you're practicing.

If you do a video of yourself every day and start posting it or practicing, tag us in it.

I want to see it.

I really, really want to see it.

I really, really want to see it.

It would be so awesome.

I'd love to be able to interact with you all and see how much you've grown from it.

And again, Vin, you are welcome back to On Purpose anytime you want.

So I hope you'll come back and we'll see you again.

100%.

Thank you.

Cheers, brother.

Thank you.

If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr.

Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable.

So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it?

It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable.

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