Khloé Kardashian: My Side that Nobody Knows (Truth Behind Headlines, Divorce, Co-Parenting)

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God, I've been through so many things that at this point I would rather not feel than feel because feeling feeling is too much for me to handle.

All right, we're ready.

I am Khloe Kardashian.

Chloe Kardashian everybody!

Chloe Kardashian.

There would be times that I was like, I don't even want to go out to the grocery store because I feel like I know what they're thinking about me.

And that was scary to me because I've never been in a dark place for that long.

And you've always taken care of others.

Have you discovered anything about why you've seen yourself take on that role in so many relationships in your life?

How do you even find the courage to trust again?

The number one health and wellness podcast.

Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty.

The one, the only Jay Shetty.

Chloe, welcome back to On Purpose.

I'm so excited to be here.

You came on the podcast in 2019.

Okay, that's crazy.

Which is six years ago.

Yeah.

We just launched at the beginning of that year.

And you were such an important part of helping the show get to where it is today.

Thank you.

So the kind words you were just saying to me a moment ago about the show

are so much because of you.

Well, thank you.

And I'm so grateful to you, your beautiful and wonderful family who've just been so kind to me over the years, your mom, who I adore, Kendall and Kim, who've both been amazing guests on the show and people I've got to spend time with off screen as well.

And it's just, you've all been so wonderful to me.

So I'm deeply grateful and deeply touched.

Well,

we all adore you.

We really, really do.

And you just have this energy about you that everyone feels safe and talking with you.

And that's a testament to the success of your podcast, obviously.

But everything that you do, it's so from the intensity of your soul.

And it's beautiful.

And you don't even realize that you're being recorded when talking with you.

So yes, I'm so honored to be asked to be here again.

Thank you.

And the last last time we were together, we were on your podcast, which I'm so excited about.

I can't wait to talk more about it.

I cannot even believe that you, yes, I am so grateful that you agreed to do that, but you were my second guest.

And the fact that you did that and did it just.

Sure, of course.

Like you never asked questions.

I'm like, this is brand new.

We've never launched or aired yet.

Thank you.

Like it was, you're so generous and so kind.

No, I loved it.

It was so much fun speaking to you and you using your platform to talk about important topics and themes and vulnerability.

And then my favorite thing is we were in India just around this like kind of coming around this time last year yes and being with you in India and getting to take you to the monastery that I stayed at for some time and what an experience it was so beautiful to have that with you and so thank you for letting me have that experience with you as well and I don't know when this airs but The India episode for us, I think airs next week.

So people are going to get to see that insight and see a little bit of where you practiced and just what a beautiful experience that was for us.

Yeah, you both were so gracious and kind and curious.

And I was so in awe of just how wonderfully respectful and thoughtful.

And thank you.

And the fact that we were on a crazy schedule at a crazy wedding and you guys somehow managed to wake up to go to a temple.

It's pretty impressive.

That was such, we could not miss that opportunity, especially to go with you.

I mean, to where you practice.

I mean, that still, that's a pinch-me moment.

You're the best.

Well, Chloe, this week on the episode when we're recording this at least, it's your 40th birthday.

And that was soon after you got back from India last year.

Yes.

And I wanted to ask you, like, what it felt like turning 40.

I know so many people dread turning 40 or just getting older.

And I am the complete opposite.

I

probably talked about my excitement in turning 40 for at least

three years prior to turning 40.

You know, my 30s were challenging for me as I really do think when I reflect back that they are challenging for most people.

I think your 30s is that, especially for women, because that's sort of when people feel like, oh, their biological clock is ticking.

They should be married or have kids by this age.

And the truth is people are getting married a little later.

They are having kids later in life.

And a lot of women are focusing on what their careers should be.

And so they're sort of putting the family.

stuff on the back burner.

At least that's what I've noticed.

And for me, I had my kids.

I had not so many great relationships in my 30s and in my younger 20s.

And, but a lot of career stuff wasn't going the way that I envisioned and hoped and planned.

And I really just wanted to get out of my 30s.

I was like, I feel good.

I have my kids.

And that's my wonderful, beautiful takeaway.

And still, I also do believe that.

Any of those experiences, they really are formative.

And no matter how traumatic and horrible they are, you don't don't think that in the moment, but later on, you do get to self-reflect and be like, okay, I needed that for some reason.

But going into my 40s, I was skipping and leaping and hopping into them.

How did you imagine your 40s were going to look when you were younger?

And now that you're moving into them, how close are they?

How different are those visions?

So I don't know if you've ever seen this meme, but it's a meme of the Golden Girls.

And I think those ladies were in their 40s or early 50s when they're ushered away somewhere in Florida at, you know, have to live together because they're so old.

And then they do side by sides with like a bunch of women in their 40s now, beautiful women.

And the comparison, you're like, why was I so afraid?

But the representation that we had when we were younger was very different than what the 40s are or 50s now.

I mean, Gabrielle Union, I don't exactly know how old everybody is, but Jennifer Lopez, you see all of these gorgeous women and you're like wait i think they're 40s 50s what am i afraid of and it's not so much even about the aesthetic it's the liveliness that these women and the passion that these women have for life that you're like that doesn't seem so bad yeah i think you're so right what you just said now about how everyone has a tough 30s to 40s.

I think it's really interesting.

When you're going in your 20s to 30s, you have a really high expectation and then you kind of get brought down to reality.

I think everyone has a tougher 20s than they imagined.

You're having

the pressure of what it should be, the pressure of starting work, the pressure of a relationship.

But you put these kids in college, and they're supposed to, what is your major, what is your minor?

And then, if you go awry from that when you graduate, it's like, then what did I pay for?

But how many times have you changed your mind about something in life?

Right.

And so have I.

So, yes, I believe in college.

I believe in in that if that's the right step for you.

But I also think it's people need to know how okay it is to not necessarily know what you want to do when you're 20 years old.

Absolutely.

Such great advice.

I mean, I look at it in my 20s, I first became a monk.

I then left and worked in consulting.

I then left and did media.

And then since then, I've done.

video content, podcasts, wrote books.

Right.

Just things that I would never have imagined.

If someone told me at 18, Jay, this is what your life's going to look like I wouldn't have believed them yeah and I think something you said that was really important that when you get into your 30s there's almost like this grounding effect as well where you start to ask yourself what do I really want in life whereas you get into your 40s you're almost living that of like what's really important what what really is my priority am i clear about what i want whereas in your 20s you don't know and you how could you you don't know and you also have that arrogance in your 20s that no one can tell you anything but people have to go through that like i don't I get it.

And I also get now when adults were like, oh, they sort of roll their eyes at somebody in their 20s.

And it's rare that most people in that age are so definitive at what they want to do.

And if they are, great.

And I, that is just this old soulness in them, I would say.

But also when I've, I've only been in my 40s for a few months, but it's crazy how quickly that you're sort of like, you feel so solid in who you are, or the things that maybe made you insecure or doubt yourself, you sort of just let it go.

And I don't know what that switch exactly is.

I just know that it's that grounding term that you said, you feel so solid within yourself.

And you're like, it's okay.

And I know life is going to work out.

I know everything is going to come.

how I envision it because I have that drive and desire to.

But I've stopped limiting myself to it had to be done before I turned 40.

Yeah.

When I was younger, society definitely put on me, or not just me, I think a lot of people, but now life expectancy is longer.

I think we prioritize our health from within so much more.

And people realize, okay, it's not all about just having babies and getting married by the time you're 23 and then just coasting the rest or figuring it out.

Now it's like, let's figure out what we really want at our core.

And then the rest will sort of unfold.

Yeah.

What would you say?

Because I feel like we have such an amazing community of young women and women who listen to this show.

And so many of them I know are thinking, gee, I'm 30 years old.

I'm not married.

There's so much pressure.

I'm not in a serious relationship.

What words of advice, wisdom, insight, or lessons would you share with them in that period of their life where the societal pressure, the parental pressure, the personal pressure, the pressure of what's happening all around them on Instagram, TikTok, social media, How should they think about navigating that?

Number one, it's something I had to learn myself is comparison is the thief of joy.

It takes everything out of anything that you're doing.

If you're constantly comparing what you're doing to somebody else, because somebody else is only showing you their highlight reel anyway, we have to remember that what we're doing is probably someone's looking at us and they're like, damn, that's an amazing highlight reel.

Like, I want that.

But we're so conditioned now now to constantly want more and more and never be satisfied.

That makes me sad for my kids.

And I always try.

I have so many nieces and nephews and

three of them are the exact same age.

It's my daughter and Kylie's daughter and Kim's daughter.

And sometimes that's challenging because they each want the same thing all the time.

And I.

I sort of like that because I like to say like, not just because someone has that doesn't mean you get to have that.

And those are smaller lessons, but you learn that later in life so much bigger.

And you can be inspired by others or motivated by others, but the jealousy or the comparison is something that we or I have had to even retrain my brain to not always look at someone and be like, well, why don't I have that?

Or how can I get?

Like it should be more from a motivational way as opposed to an envious way.

But I also think, do you want to be married and have kids because that's what you were taught as a kid kid that you're supposed to do do you want that and a career and which one do you want to have come first and do you not want a career and do you just want to be a mother like those whatever the answer is is all okay yeah because it's your life but sometimes I think that we live a life so much for other people and we forget to check in with ourselves and it's okay if you had a a desire in your 20s and now you're in your 30s and you're like, wait, I actually don't want that anymore.

And I changed my direction.

And it's okay to admit that to yourself.

Yeah, I think you've raised so many important points there.

One of them that resonates with me is I always say to people, the only way you can purify envy is study.

And what I mean by that is when you study someone's success, you get motivated by it.

When you envy someone's success, you get demotivated by it because you feel it's not for me.

I'm not going to get that.

When you study it, when you look at how they started, when you look at the challenges they've gone through, when you look at the ups and the downs, all of a sudden you realize you get so much inspiration that I can do it too, right?

That that person's had a very normal human journey.

And maybe I just don't see that because I'm only seeing the success.

I'm not seeing the story.

And I think I get a very interesting take on that because I do that with me and my sisters.

And so when I look at all of my siblings, I know so in-depthly also their struggles and how many how many companies we've all started that have failed, where so many people that you look up to you don't hear every little thing until they're at the top and then they're telling you this was how they got here their success story and sometimes you're like okay but you're here now and it still seems unobtainable but for me I do get I'm very lucky for my positioning because even though I see my siblings and I see all their success now I remember how much stuff we tried to do and you know throw spaghetti on the wall and it just didn't stick.

But I don't know if outsiders would see that looking within our family all the time.

I think if you can, you know, go back and Google back 2008, whatever, you'll be like, oh, they did that, and where's that company?

And so, everyone has their failures, but I wouldn't even call them failures.

What's the biggest lesson you're taking into your 40s?

Something that you've been carrying with you into this time?

I talk to myself a lot.

So, I like to be really intentional.

And I like i understand and i teach my daughter that happiness and positivity and all of that is a choice and so what i like to is be very intentional with my days my jobs the things that i choose to do and spend time on and not in a

like smug sort of way, but I've, I wake up a lot and I'm like, oh, I'm just in either a melancholy mood or I'm woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

I'm not a nice person today.

And I'll look myself in the mirror and I will have a back and forth talk with myself.

And I'm like, no, I'm happy today.

I'm choosing happy.

But so much of that came really when I was in my 40s, maybe my last 39th year, because I realized how much of a dark cloud I felt was surrounding me in my 30s.

But yes, things happen to me.

But it's also my responsibility to choose how I respond to those things.

And I think because of social media, maybe as well, that I let so much of the noise make me even sadder or make me feel like I was less worthy, less of a person that I needed to be so crumbled and embarrassed about what happened to me.

Where yes, I probably would have had those feelings, but maybe not as long as I did.

Because that narration was going on for so long.

And so I finally was sort of like, screw every, every dark noise I'm hearing.

And I'm going to say say every day, no, I am worthy.

I'm worthy of a happy, beautiful, positive day, being intentional in that way.

And it's funny when I wake my kids up every day, I'm like, we're going to have a happy day because we choose to have a happy day, but embedding in them those small little affirmations.

I mean, I'm 40 and I need it.

So, you know, I think it's a good thing.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.

I always say to myself, like, I can't make

like the day doesn't have to be great to me, but I can make the day a great day.

Right.

Because there could be ups and downs.

It could be someone says something.

Someone could be mean to me.

Someone could cut me off in traffic.

Someone could do whatever it may be to me, but I get to choose how I respond.

I get to choose how I react.

And it makes such a difference.

One of the themes in the show this year has been all of you talking about sheddings the burdens of the past.

And I think that's such an interesting thing because I think as you get older, you start to notice what you've been carrying with you.

Right.

Right.

And you've had longer to carry it with you.

And now you're more aware.

Right.

What were some of those things that came up for you when you were like, I think these are things that I've been holding on to that I need to shed?

What are some of those burdens?

I'm not a victim to this, but I do feel like I was.

in a way victimizing myself.

But again, it sort of was more from the outside noise.

I hate that I allowed other people to have that much control over the way I viewed myself.

But I would say just from my past dating history, and a lot of them ended in cheating, or there was just, they weren't great situations at the end.

But yes, I think even in the most private of times, if that happened and nobody publicly knew about it, there's still shame within your family.

You feel embarrassed, like, how, you know, what did I do?

You, you always make it about yourself.

And that's okay, because hopefully you will get stronger and reflect and not make those same mistakes again.

And for me,

they happened repeatedly.

And I was like, okay, this is about me.

I'm either not paying attention, I'm sweeping something under the rug.

Like I really wanted to be so aware of what I was doing and let that go, but let the guilt and the shame of that go

because I, quote, allowed it to happen more than once.

And I'm saying that because I didn't allow it to happen, but

the narrative out there was like, well, you get what you get.

You know, like, I should have known better.

And yes, I probably should have, but I needed to learn that lesson.

I know I carried so much shame and guilt where there would be times that I was like, I don't even want to go out to the grocery store and look at someone in the eyes because I feel like I know what they're thinking about me.

They probably don't know who I am.

They probably have never heard this story.

But the shame, this cloud that was, I felt following me everywhere that I I don't know if it was even that big to other people but I definitely felt like I was constantly surrounded by a gray cloud I would limit myself from doing a lot of things and seeing a lot of people because I was I felt such shame where I was like intentionally no I'm gonna let this go I couldn't be more excited to share something truly special with all you tea lovers out there And even if you don't love tea, if you love refreshing, rejuvenating, refueling sodas that are good for you, listen to this.

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There's so much maturity in what you're saying that requires so much.

And something I want to kind of

go into with you is this idea of how do we take accountability but not take full responsibility, right?

It's that idea of like, as you said,

you can't blame yourself.

And at the same time, you had to find a way to recognize you wanted to make better decisions.

And I think it's such a fine line because I think we go from saying, it's not my fault, it's everyone else's fault to the being like, oh, it's all my fault.

It's all me.

I'm the one to blame.

I did this to myself.

How did you find that balance, which requires so much thoughtfulness and maturity to actually get to that place where it's like, I'm going to take accountability to change my life, but I'm also going to recognize that this happened to me, but it wasn't about me, as you said.

How do you get to that?

Well, the interesting part is I think the very first time it happened, I didn't do that.

And that's okay because it's done.

And I also had to forgive myself for that.

There was a time that I was felt very guilty.

Like, why did I even stay?

Why am I not forgiving myself?

I would blame myself for everything.

And then the second time, you know, I, my surrogate was still pregnant with Tatum and the people didn't know yet that I was having Tatum.

But

I felt such shame that it was happening again because I knew I knew better.

Yeah.

I mean, as I'm listening to you, I'm just thinking about the amount of people that are probably listening to you right now thinking,

Chloe, I had that fantasy too.

And you had the courage even though at one point as you said you were kind of why did i stay that long or why did i keep doing that and you had to forgive yourself for that but i think a lot of people don't know

how to know when something's no longer serving them and as i'm listening to you i'm listening to someone who's saying i finally got to a point where i realized this fantasy wasn't serving me it was keeping me here we can't speed it up no we can't rush ourselves to it you can't be forced to it.

No, and that's what I mean.

I think people also need to be patient with themselves.

Like if they don't, if you're not feeling accountable in some of the actions that you're making or some, what someone else is doing to you, that's okay.

There will be a day that you will wake up.

And listen, if I was watching me when I was in my 20s, I would be judging that person too and being like, she's so stupid.

It's going to happen again.

I don't blame people for their judgment.

I think with life comes great wisdom and life experiences.

And if my story helped anybody else feel less alone, because it's such an isolating feeling, you feel like you're on this island and it doesn't happen to anybody else.

And

sadly, it does.

And I know so many people that stay longer than I did.

And not that it's right, but you have to let go when you really feel like you're ready.

Or I think that person will always feel like, well, what if and this?

And

I really just like to live my life in this.

No,

I'm solid in that action.

I'm solid in that choice that I made.

You're making such a powerful point here.

And I really want everyone to take it home as they're listening.

Like you can only learn on your own timeline.

You can't learn on anyone else's.

You can't look at someone else's pace and say, oh, I should have done it like that.

And

why aren't they doing it like that?

Why are they doing it like that?

And I think we just don't, it's really easy to look at someone else's else's life, whoever it may be, our friends, our family, people on the screen, and think we know how perfectly they should live.

Yet we all know how hard it is to make one decision in our own life.

And what I've learned from ever having any training and learning from my spirituality in non-judgment was just that everything you judge in someone else,

you won't fully understand until you have to go through it yourself.

I know.

And as soon as you go through it yourself, you wake up and you go, I cannot believe I judged someone else for how they were navigating a divorce, a breakup, a marriage, whatever it may have been.

And trust me, I was that person.

One of us.

Yes.

When I was younger, I used to, you either read something and you have a comment about it, or one of your friends or family members.

And yes, and then you live your life and you go through it and you're like, hmm, okay.

I get it a little bit more.

Yeah.

How did you learn to forgive yourself?

Because I think that is sometimes harder.

And if I could say this, just from the moments I've been fortunate enough to spend time with you and connect with you.

And thankfully, they've always been very deep.

And so even though we haven't spent lots of time together, I feel when we have, it's always been deep time.

Yes.

It's always a meaningful conversation or an exchange.

And as I'm sitting with you here today versus six years ago, the first time, and every time I've seen you in between, I feel you've got more and more peaceful.

Thank you.

Just in your presence and who you are.

You've always been wonderful and kind, but more and more peaceful in yourself.

And

what I see as someone who's become a master in forgiveness,

your superpower is your ability to forgive.

Thank you.

To forgive others, but even more importantly, yourself.

And so I'm really intrigued about yourself part, because forgiving other people is one thing, but letting yourself say, hey, I moved at the right time.

I moved at the right pace.

I don't need to hate on myself and not getting out of it sooner or not seeing it sooner.

That requires so much inner forgiveness.

Walk us through that.

Gosh, that's a deep one, Jay.

It is.

It is.

You're the one who's lived in.

I mean, oh my gosh.

Well, I am not always kind to myself.

And I think I am my biggest

bully and critic and all of those things at times.

And it is much easier for me to forgive others than myself.

I will say that.

Forgiving myself has really been more of the last three years of my adult life.

But I was so great at giving other people grace, forgiveness, making like not excuses for them, but just like always coming to their defense, no matter how wrong they've done me, because I feel like it's not my place to judge them.

And I don't know everything they're going through and that type of thing.

And then one day I was like, but why don't I give myself the same energy that I'm giving so freely to other people?

And a lot of it comes through my prayer and my relationship with God.

And

just know, like I really had to also say to myself that this isn't about me, what these people have done.

It's not just relationships in so many different levels.

And there are times that you feel like, okay, what is it?

Why do so many people take advantage or lie, cheat, steal, whatever it is?

You can be angry.

You can have your feelings, but sometimes you feel like, oh, it must be me because it's happened so many times.

And that's also why I feel like boundaries are so important to set.

And I never had boundaries before.

And I think that was a big thing.

But I think a lot of that is releasing it and just knowing that that's not your burden to carry.

I think that's what it is.

We start to believe deeply.

that there's only one problem and that's us.

Right.

Right.

We walk around thinking that it's all because of me.

It's because of my weakness.

It's because of my flaws.

It's because of whatever else it is.

And we completely forget that there's anything else to it.

Well, because then also if you're like, well, that's not because of me.

Like when people say it also in that way, they're like, well,

you know, like if everyone says that whatever, then it has to be you too.

So there's that fine line

in that for sure.

But I think when you're just aware and when you're solid in yourself, I really do think it's okay to release those things.

And if you are doing the work, if you're, and the work doesn't have to be therapy, like with an actual therapist, if you have a group of friends and if those people really are unbiased and not judgmental and you can go to that, do that.

For me, I really enjoy writing.

It's not for people to see.

It's just.

it's a form of expression for me.

And I feel like I'm really getting this energy out of my system.

Wow.

And sometimes I'll write and I'm like, like, I'm tearing this up so no one ever sees it.

And I don't even know what I'm going to start writing.

I'm like, I just got to get this on from pen to paper.

It's such a release.

And sometimes that's the quote therapy that I need or the conversation that I need.

A lot of the times it's the gym, it's whatever.

But once I get to that point that I'm like, okay, light bulb goes off.

I'm like, yes, I could have done things differently, but I'm not the reason why this happened to me.

Like there's really no excuse for certain behavior but yes i probably could have handled things differently or saw things differently but you know i think people have to be fair and not just play the victim but not also play that they're this champion and this

crusader there definitely has to be there's a good and bad to all of us yeah if we want to admit it or not absolutely and i think it's that it's being able to accept that i was weak but i am not weak weak, right?

There's a difference in that language, even in the way you're speaking about it.

There's a difference in I made a mistake versus I am a mistake.

Exactly.

And I think as soon as it becomes internalized to believe that that's who I am, that's who I've always been and I won't be anything else.

Then we don't allow ourselves to say, no, it's almost like looking back at an outfit of yours and going, God, I don't know why I was wearing that.

Right.

Right.

And you're like, why did I wear that?

Like those two things don't even go together.

Right.

But you know, you're not your clothes.

Right.

So you forgive yourself and you go, okay, that was a bad day and I'll wear something else today and I can make sure that you're able to laugh about it.

Exactly.

Yes.

And the same sentiment should be held for our past mistakes.

Like,

haven't you ever done anything and then it mortified you where you were so angry at yourself?

And then five years later, you will hysterically laugh about it with your wife or whatever.

Yeah.

And that's the best.

Yes.

And that's how I think most of our failures, mistakes in life should be.

Sure, at the moment, They're horrible and they make you feel really bad.

But how beautiful is it when you are have so much growth from that and you're a completely different person in a beautiful way.

And then you look back and you're, you can laugh at that, at something that made you sob, cry in a corner and you were, you know, in a fetal position.

You didn't want to see anyone.

And then you're like, No, okay.

I had a bad moment.

It's not a bad life.

And I can move on and be stronger and better.

But sometimes we let those moments consume us and we never get out of them.

And for me, that's a place that I never want to be because I felt like I was in that for a few years.

And that was scary to me because I've never been in a dark place for that long of a place of shame and guilt and all of that.

And then finally, I just said to myself, okay, enough.

No one wants to be around someone when you're like, how's your day?

Ah,

fine.

And not that I was that person, but internally, I felt like I was that person.

I love being happy and joyful.

And like, life is so great if you look for the good.

You just hit on something that's really important.

I think a lot of people kind of get into that lull, like that feeling of a long period of, I don't see light at the end of a tunnel.

And was it like that for you?

I mean, you're so committed to the work.

Whether it's your prayer, your journaling.

We were just talking earlier when you came in about how you need a few hours every week just by yourself.

Yes.

And that's a practice that you've maintained with children, with your businesses, with your responsibilities that carving out that time is so important to you.

Talk to me about that, about like how much the work helped you even in the darkest times.

Were you able to maintain it or?

I mean, the work is what got me out of the darkest times.

I think it's.

It's really easy to turn to God or whoever your higher being is.

It's really easy to turn there when you're in this low time and like, get me out.

And, you know, and you just think magically they're going to send you a ladder and like pull you out of this ditch.

But yes, he will maybe give you signs and tools, but you have to do the work.

He can give you the recipe, but you got to put all the cake mix and everything together and bake the cake.

And I think so many times people expect it just like to be magic, get me out of there.

And they don't want to do the work because the work is scary.

Being alone is scary with the self-reflection and writing and all that.

Like, cause when you're like, oh, I have to face myself.

And that seems a little daunting.

And people like to distract and not come to terms with who they are.

For me,

and again, being in my 20s, I did a lot of distracting.

It's fun to distract, especially at that age, and you don't have kids and you can do whatever.

And so I remember that after my divorce, or even when my dad died, my dad died when I was 19.

I remember going out every night because I was an avoidant.

Let me avoid these feelings.

I'm not, if it's, if I'm not feeling them, they're not happening.

Well, that didn't work too well.

I remember losing all my hair, gaining so much weight, hyperventilating, like when I would be alone, when I got a divorce, very similar.

Let me go out, let me party, drink, hang out with new guys.

What does that get me?

You know, I realized, okay, these ways of coping didn't work for so many years that when this time happened and maybe a little help of COVID, it was

around 2022, 2021, 2022.

But still, things were still sort of locked down a little bit.

And I just said, no, I'm not going to date anyone.

And now I have kids too.

I'm not going to a club.

Like, what am I doing?

But having to face myself and intentionally be alone, intentionally do the work.

Intentionally, every day I wake up at 5 a.m.

because I need that alone time to have my coffee, do my prayers, listen to my Bible app, like whatever it is that makes you whole.

I need that.

And I know when I don't have that, how different my day feels.

I like to set my intentions for the day or my workouts, the clarity I get, just whatever it is, everyone's going to be different.

If you need to be outside, you have to decide that.

But it did take me a long time of doing other things and seeing how horrible those things served me for me to find,

okay, this I like.

And yes, it's easy to, for me to go and date a man and be an avoidant and distract these real feelings.

But then what?

The same thing is probably going to happen to me again because I don't know what I'm doing.

And I'm just

willy-nilly going through life and what?

Because somebody's cute or this.

I'm not paying attention to the core of people and even to the core of myself.

And I just started listening to myself and finding the things that really made me feel whole,

but alone.

And I know so many of my friends cannot be alone because they don't want to hear their own thoughts.

They don't want to start working on themselves.

And I'm not judging that, but I know how amazing it is to be alone with myself and to like who I am.

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This back to school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon.

I was talking to one of my closest friends the other day.

He has two kids and every year it's the same routine.

One kid wants a very specific backpack.

I'm talking not just blue, but navy blue with a neon green zipper and a galaxy print.

The other lost their lunchbox before the first week of school even ended last year.

He's like, Jay, I swear they get more expensive every time they grow an inch.

And I get it.

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i'm so glad you talked about that because I think that's one of the challenges we have today in the world is our inability to be alone.

And again, I come at it from the same point of view as you.

It's not about

being judgmental.

It's coming from a place of compassion and empathy that you can't break a pattern.

if you simply avoid it and pretend it doesn't exist.

And when we're alone, we're breaking the pattern because we have to look at those assumptions.

We have to look at all those beliefs.

We have to look at the hardwired truths that we're living by.

And we've got to look at, wait a minute, every decision I make, where in the past did that seed get planted?

planted and I'm now I'm now eating the fruit from that and what seed do I want to plant today because I want to eat a different fruit in the future right otherwise we keep eating the fruits from the past and never plant any new seeds I understand how difficult it is to change your mindset your mind is a muscle I get it and we are humans by nature, like they love a routine.

You find comfort in that.

I totally get that.

So I'm not saying, oh, it's so easy.

Go ahead and do this.

No, but it's little practices every day.

Yeah.

I always say to people, you're, there's two questions you have to ask yourself.

The first is, are you someone who seeks discomfort or someone who needs to build confidence?

So if you're someone who needs to seek discomfort, you should start with the hardest thing first.

And if you're someone who needs to build confidence, you should start with the easiest thing first.

Because some of us want to wake up in the morning and jump into a cold plunge because that sets us up for the day.

And some of us just need to wake up and make our bed.

Right.

And if we do that, now we feel we can do harder things and and all of us are one or the other and the second thing is are you an extremist or are you a balanced person so for someone like me i'm really good at being extreme so if i make a decision and a commitment i can be really extreme and cut it out tomorrow my wife is more balanced if you asked her to eat one tiny piece of chocolate a day she could do that right me i could either eat the whole bar and the whole box right or nothing because that's who I am as a person.

And so it all comes back to what you're saying: that when you're spending time alone, you get a real sense of who you are, and then you get to make better habits and decisions for yourself.

For you, as we're talking about all of this and your commitment to the work, your

commitment and continued commitment to it, why was traditional therapy a path that you wanted to go down and take part in, as you mentioned?

Why was that something that you opened the door to?

So, for me, I

never really thought I needed to go the conventional route.

Kimberly was also anti-therapy for her own reasons.

And I want to say maybe two years ago, maybe a little bit longer, she started seeing a therapist that she really, really liked.

And she just suggested I meet with her.

And I actually really liked her.

Like, I really enjoy speaking with her.

This might sound

silly, but she

is, you know, she's like from our neighborhood.

Like, there's so many things that she gets us on and i also love how

chill she is like at the beginning she would when i i would talk to her she was like i think i need to see you three days a week and i was like three days a week and i remember telling kendall and kendall was like are

i've never heard of someone seeing a therapist three days a week i are do you need to go to a mental institution like are you okay and i was like oh my gosh is that not normal and we started talking

me and the therapist more and more and she was like okay i think you're like,

you're actually really self-aware and you're great.

I just, I had this little hump that I think I needed her a little bit more.

Maybe because I was just getting started.

I'm not sure.

And I love that she's also very chill.

She's like, call me when you need me.

She checks in on me by text.

She's more like a friend.

And you just feel,

I feel like I could trust her.

And that's very rare for me.

And I also think because of her relationship with Kim, she felt like more of a friend as opposed to this traditional therapist.

And that's not bad or good.

But because of my experience with past therapists, I didn't want something that was very traditional because I couldn't trust that.

So I don't see her on a weekly basis anymore.

I know when I need to see her, I will, but we do our check-ins every now and again.

But I honestly feel like I'm in such a good place.

And I also don't think that there's one which way that people

can or need to get any help or life coaching, if you will.

I think that it's not a one-size-fits-all.

I think everyone, whatever you're willing to try, try it.

And whatever you feel like really speaks to your soul, then that's the way to go.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

There's such a value when you can trust someone in speaking to someone who's not connected to your life

and almost doesn't feel the pressure to remind you, hey, you're doing great.

Or like, you know, that's trying to fill all those other ways.

But the thing that stood out to me is: you know, you talked earlier about the romantic relationships where your trust was broken.

How do you even find the courage to trust again?

That's really hard.

And I, it took me over 10 years to see a therapist again.

And so many people be like, I think you need therapy.

And I was like, well, I'm sure I do, but I don't feel comfortable talking to anybody.

And definitely at first, I would talk to her so monotones, so matter of fact.

She would even say, you don't have emotion when you're speaking.

And for me, I had to turn off the emotional switch in me.

And I would tell stories very much because they are matter of fact when I'm giving you the facts, but it was more like I'm, it wasn't me.

I'm just reading off somebody's life story.

And one of our activities or homework assignments basically was me

writing some like from the mini traumas to the big traumas in my life and writing them down.

And the more I would write them down, I was like, this is ridiculous.

Like how many mini to major traumas there are.

And then we would go line by line and talk about them as opposed to just being like, this happened and this and throwing everything under the rug.

She wanted to dissect everyone, not to be nosy, like not for, I felt it.

Like there's some people I meet with that I'm like, I do not trust this person.

I'm not going to give them anything.

And she really worked hard to earn my trust.

That made me feel safer with her.

Yeah.

And just to sort of get

why I am so

dead about some of the things that I should probably be crying about if I'm telling somebody this story that I'm telling.

But the trust took a long time.

But I will say, because I trust all of my siblings with everything in me, that normally, if it is an introduction through them,

my guards do go down.

And Kim has had her own crazy things that she's not very trusting with either.

So for her to trust, I was like, okay, I think I'm a little safe here.

Yeah.

What did you find about that?

Because I think that's so true for so many people who go to therapy that when you first go,

you do recount your life as if it's a biography.

Right.

Right.

You talk about it as if it's another person.

Right.

Because we have disassociated and disconnected some of that emotion as a protective mechanism, as a mechanism of not internalizing all of it.

What did you find when you started to kind of go through the less salacious parts and these more, and to be honest, I also imagine it's rarely those moments that are the really defining moments.

The defining moments happened much earlier with the unseen things.

What did you discover as you started to, almost, as you said, in your words, you were dead?

How did you become more alive to the emotion of those moments?

What did you discover?

Well, I remember I would just like I wrote everything down and I would read them as if I was reading, like you said, somebody's biography.

And I'm like, okay.

She would just keep asking me, you don't have any feeling when you read these?

And I was like, well, yeah.

And I would start laughing.

And she's like, okay, well, not laughter, because I would feel so uncomfortable.

And then that's my nervousness.

And I realized once I was, I would be like, okay.

sort of get my own ego out of the way.

Like I had to strip myself down.

And it took a few times.

Like she didn't want me to cry and relive this.

She just was more fascinated how I was so numb to so many things.

And it really made me more sad for myself because I felt as if, God, I've been through so many things that at this point I would rather not feel than feel because feeling is too much for me to handle.

And what is life if you don't feel things?

Like I want to feel,

I do want to feel sadness too.

Like, I love feeling joy and happiness, but then why am I so?

I get, I know why I'm so okay with that feeling, but also

grief is also a beautiful thing because it, it's an expression of love.

And I think being sad or hurt means that there was once something or someone that you valued and cared about so much.

And those were things that I had to learn and be like, it, it's okay.

You're safe here.

So it really just taught me to remind myself, like, we don't have to be numb to everything.

And I use humor as

an escape, as a defense mechanism.

I do love to laugh and I do love humor, but I realize in really dark situations, I do tend to make a joke of it at some point.

Like that's just my personality.

And I have to remind myself, it's okay.

to cry or it's okay to have feelings that doesn't make me weak.

And I don't even, that's not even a thought I'm having.

Like, oh, are they going to think I'm weak?

But whenever I do cry, I tend to apologize afterwards for some reason.

Have you figured out why?

No.

I should probably ask her about that.

No, well, no, I think partly it's because we're, I mean, you probably know it as a mother.

I think whenever we were crying as kids, most people just said to her, it's okay, don't cry.

Yeah.

It's okay.

Don't cry.

Whatever it was, right?

Right.

And not that our parents had.

bad intentions or anything like that.

It's a bad time.

It's a natural thing to say, but it's like, I think we've always been made to feel like if you cried, it was almost wrong or it wasn't needed or it wasn't necessary.

And what's so weird, my mom cried, like, I wish I was more like that.

She cries at anything and everything, like, but happy.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I'm like, I don't know if I've cried happy tears ever.

Yeah.

Like, but I wish I was that type of person.

That I'm like, oh my goodness, the joy.

Like, I wish I had a little bit of that.

She maybe has too much.

I wish she could sprinkle a little onto me.

But I, and we're all different.

I'm that person.

I can like get teary to like, if I get asked to speak at someone's birthday that I love or someone's wedding or whatever it is, I am just holding back tears.

I've had the opportunity to officiate some weddings.

And whenever I'm officiating,

I'm just literally going, Jay, don't cry.

Don't cry.

Don't cry.

Cause I just, when I see people in love and I see, you know, all the families and that's my dream to cry.

I'm holding back the whole time.

Yeah, no, that's my dream to be like, I, have a heart.

I have emotions.

This is beautiful.

Like, I wish.

But you're so expressive with your words.

I know.

I feel like every time we've talked, we've connected, whether we're messaging or whatever it is, you're so expressive.

You're so loving through your words.

Thank you.

Like you would feel that.

And that's so natural and genuine to you.

So it is there.

And I feel all those things.

Like, I'm probably.

too expressive with words sometimes, but maybe it's because I'm not a great, I don't cry very often at all.

And maybe that's why.

I don't know.

Sometimes I turn on a sad movie just because I'm like, get the tears out.

And sometimes they don't come out.

Like, there's, what is wrong with me?

Yeah, my wife will look over at me because I'm crying in every movie.

And she's like, how are you crying at this?

Like, nothing's even happened here.

You're like, I know what's going to happen.

Yeah, exactly.

It's so, it seems like one of the things I noticed with you is you're such a rock for your family.

for your children, even

for your ex-partners.

Like you've been such a rock.

And in one sense, it seems like one of your patterns is you've always taken care of others and other people.

Have you discovered anything about why you've seen yourself take on that role in so many relationships in your life?

Yeah, well, it's definitely my love language.

And I am such a maternal person.

I've always been that person.

And no one's ever said this to me.

And my parents are so loving and so incredible.

But

I used to feel, but I still love, like, I still love taking care of people, but I used to feel like I wasn't worthy of like so many other things.

But I knew if I took care of someone or was support, like, then maybe I'd be worthy of them loving me back.

And that's how I used to feel.

And I don't know where that came from.

But it's almost like I have to earn my place in this person's life.

So if I'm there for them, then maybe like that's enough because because what else do I have to offer was how I used to feel.

When it comes to all the kids, I was very,

not by my family, but by other people.

I was always talked about my looks, always told that I was chubby.

No one ever believed that I was my sibling's sibling.

They would always

say, oh, look, where'd she come from?

Or she's related to you from like teachers.

I remember so vividly.

And that feeling of being

always

compared to them, but always not good enough to be considered their sibling.

And I don't think these adults maliciously knew what they were doing, but it was so impactful that for children, I will do everything to include them, for them to never feel like that.

And for adults too, but like with kids, I don't play.

And I never want someone to feel the way I did.

And so I want to be that rock for everyone.

And, you know, I think also having so many brothers and sisters, you know, I, we were raised with my stepdad's kids too, being in and out.

We had four step siblings.

So there was eight of us.

And then at one point, 10 of us.

And there's a lot.

And sometimes people just don't feel as seen as others.

And parents are doing the best that they can.

And so I always have just wanted everyone to feel seen and supported.

And

from every sister and exes, like, it's just, I feel like they're always in our lives, that God puts people in our lives for a reason.

But I don't know, it's a part of me that I actually really love about myself because we've talked about it in therapy.

She thinks I give my love.

What did she say?

I don't want to mess it up.

She's like, I think you give your love to others because you've never really felt that love yourself.

But I know I've felt that from my parents.

It's mainly from outside people that I've never really felt real, genuine love.

It was like, oh, they'll take me because they wanted Courtney, Kim, and Rob or whatever.

Like I always had to like, I was always the funny one because I felt like that was how I would get attention because it wasn't because, oh, she's so cute or this or that, because people always made such a point to tell me how much I did not look like them or things like that.

So I, I felt like, well, those were the things that people praised me on.

So let's keep them up.

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Avocado, dream of better.

This back to school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon.

I was talking to one of my closest friends the other day.

He has two kids and every year it's the same routine.

One kid wants a very specific backpack.

I'm talking not just blue, but navy blue with a neon green zipper and a galaxy print.

The other lost their lunchbox before the first week of school even ended last year.

He's like, Jay, I swear they get more expensive every time they grow an inch.

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Yeah, and it is such a beautiful thing to be able to say, I love this about myself.

And yes, maybe it's made me over give or over love or over share or whatever it may be.

But at the same time, there's a beauty in this.

Helps me be an amazing mom, helps me protect these children, like, which is such a beautiful gift.

And I think sometimes that's so true that our greatest gifts and our greatest superpowers come from how we were loved and what we experienced or what we had or didn't have.

And it starts figuring out how that superpower can still live in our life and not trip us up.

I think as time's gone on, as we start to set boundaries, a boundary should never put a boundary on your ability to love.

It's a boundary to protect you from loving the wrong person.

Right.

And there's a difference in that, right?

You wanting to share love and give love should never be limited.

But who you know.

It's not a bad thing.

And not a bad thing.

And not a bad thing.

And I think we all can become closed-hearted and

darker and bitter about it because of what we've experienced.

But I love that you've held on to that.

And I think the biggest challenge for a good-hearted, good person is that we believe everyone loves the way we do.

Yes.

And then when they don't, we feel hurt by it.

And then we can become closed and unloving, but that's the biggest loss for the world.

It's the biggest loss for our lives because, as you said, there's so much joy.

If you can feel joy in being that person, it's a beautiful thing.

People are always so surprised that I'm not more cynical when it comes to love.

And they always always ask, do you ever think you're going to get married again?

And I go, yes, I hope I'm going to get married again.

I think marriage is the most beautiful union that there is.

And I love that.

I love family.

I mean, look at our family.

We can't get away from each other.

And I love

every aspect of love, whether it be just for a friendship love or like I value that respect and that secrecy and that loyalty and whatever it is.

And people are always surprised that I believe in love.

I probably am

more joyful now, especially with love than maybe five years ago.

Wow.

And it's because I feel like I know how to control myself more,

where before,

you know, you just give things so freely.

And I love giving love.

I love loving myself, loving my family and others, but I feel like I'm a little bit wiser with maybe whom I give it to so innocently.

I think the amazing thing about love is we think love is also something we only feel when we receive it.

Right.

But love, you actually feel it when you get to give it.

Yes.

There's like a joy in giving love that isn't there even in receiving it.

I could not agree more.

Like I cannot accept gifts from people.

I feel so uncomfortable.

But giving somebody a gift,

I love.

And I get so excited just for, cause I like to give really thoughtful gifts.

Like it's just the joy that you give to people I just I love yeah I just love and I do have a problem where I love people I'm one I was one of those kids my mom was like I could never leave you alone you would just go talk to everyone and I but I've always been a people person so and I never want to see people in pain I want to be that love and support for someone if and when I can.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

I mean, speaking of marriage, obviously, recently on the show, you had Lamar on the show.

And I believe it was the first time you'd seen each other in nine years.

Almost 10.

Almost 10 years.

Yes.

I wonder, why did you feel now was the time to reconnect?

And was it you who initiated?

Was it him?

Where did that come from?

So, yeah, Lamar and I, the last time I saw him, I believe was 2016.

Wow.

And

never spoke, nothing since 2016.

if my memory serves correctly.

I was actually at Super Bowl last year, the one in Las Vegas, and my best friend Malika was there and she was staying somewhere else and she ran into him in a hotel lobby and they both just started like crying because they were really close and just embraced and they exchanged numbers.

And so that's how the first intro happened.

And for Lamar, I've, when we divorced, Lamar was not in a good headspace.

And, but Lamar is a seven foot tall man.

We had all this custom furniture And he was like, just get rid of it all.

I don't want to just sell the house.

And I'm like, what?

I didn't know what to do with that.

So for years, I kept a storage unit of all of his furniture, thinking one day he would want it.

And years ago, before I had kids,

thank you.

Well, it's his and expensive.

And he's a big guy.

Like, you're going to want it.

And I remember he was

before I had true.

I think I was just pregnant.

I was like, you know what?

I just, I don't need to hold on to this storage unit anymore.

And he said, through

his friend, who will go unnamed, said,

give him the storage keys and he'll take it for me.

And I was like, cool, fine.

I did so.

And I found out later down the line that this friend of his sold everything that was in the unit and without Lamar knowing.

And that broke my heart because I was like, I've saved these things for years.

I could have got rid of it then, but these were his belongings and memorabilia from all of his sports stuff and whatever.

So that broke my heart.

When I moved from my last house during COVID, I think it was 2020 or 2021,

I didn't think I have had a thing of Lamar's.

I found Lamar's sixth Man of the Year trophy.

I found his, his mom passed away when he was.

12, I believe.

I found stuff of his mother's.

They were all in my attic, jewelry, all this stuff.

And I held on to it and I said, I'm never going to give this to somebody else unless it's Lamar.

I'm going to hold on to these things because now I don't trust his people around him.

And when Malika reached out, when Malika told me she saw him, I said, that's so weird.

I just found his mom's driver's license last week.

And I was like, okay, she's like, well, why don't you give it to him?

I was like, let me think this over.

And it took a few months for me to

want her to reach out to say, like, do you want to meet up with me?

Because I wanted to do it.

I didn't want to just drop it off.

I didn't.

I wanted to see him and make sure still that he was doing okay.

And at the time, I didn't have any feelings.

I was like, yeah, let's hang, let's come over, let's go to Malika's house.

I didn't want to do it in public where it would be a big spectacle.

I didn't want to do it at my house because of my kids there.

And he knew about the cameras.

He picked the time of the date.

I never would have ambushed somebody about that.

And he picked the time of the date.

He flew in for it.

And it's so weird when

I thought I was totally cool.

And when he came in, he was so nervous.

And I was trying to reassure him like, we're fine and whatever.

And there would be times in our conversation that I started getting.

these feelings.

I don't know if they're triggers or because we've both experienced a lot of trauma together, Lamar and I.

And there would be either little maneurisms or things that would flash me back to 10, 15 years ago.

And I didn't realize how triggered I was getting from Lamar.

What did it bring up for you?

And was it useful in giving more closure?

Did it feel like it moved it on or was it kind of like pulling you back?

Because I'm thinking about all the people in the world who have the courage, first of all, to even not talk to someone for nine years, because that's hard enough as it is.

But then to kind of throw yourself back into it that much time later.

Well, I could only say this because he, I would never tell somebody else's story, but I'm saying this because he said it on the episode.

We didn't talk for 10 years because after his

after his overdose, Lamar couldn't walk or talk and he had a significant amount of seizures and strokes and needed to be rehabilitated.

And I helped him through that journey.

And then when he was at a decent place, he started using again.

And he said that on the show.

That's why I'm saying it now.

And from that moment was when I was paying for a house for him to be in.

I had, I was taking care of him.

And I said, I can never see you again.

Not that it was anything ever romantic.

I, from my,

I love Lamar with all my heart.

Even today, I love, love, love him.

And I know.

He was like one of the greatest loves of my life.

It just other circumstances took over.

But so so I really sincerely wanted the best for him.

When he started using again after such a horrific accident, where he, in my opinion, is a miracle that he is alive today.

I couldn't understand how someone would go and do that again.

And I get it's a disease, but it felt like you punched me in my stomach.

And I put so much of my life on hold to take care of this person just for them to be like, that's that's fine.

Like, I'm not sure how he felt about himself.

It made me feel that he had no respect for his own life

and for anything that I did for him as well.

And so from that moment on, I said, no, I'm not speaking to this person anymore because it does nothing for me.

There's no benefit in this.

I felt.

more like I would be taking care of him, but being lied to.

I just, I had so many negative thoughts.

So that 10-year break, as sad as it was, it wasn't that hard for me because I, it was, but it was sad.

And I thought about him all the time and always wanting to make sure he's okay.

And then

when I saw him, like I loved seeing him.

It was great.

It was really sad at the same time.

Seeing someone I thought I would never outgrow.

I realized how much I outgrew him.

And that made me sad.

And, but I wonder if we were still married, would we have grown together?

And there were so many things that made me wonder even more.

Like, would we have grown together?

If we did stay together, would this have stopped?

Or would it

beast always, you know, be needing to be fed?

But you can't live your life in the

what-ifs of it all.

But it definitely made me sad because I just felt like we were two totally different people and I never thought we would get to that place.

Yeah.

I'm happy for him.

I am so happy that he's so burned.

He's doing these great things with his life.

And those are things that anyone should be rooting for.

I'm also proud of him for meeting with me

because as much as as scary as or as nerve-wracking and yeah, scary as it was for me to meet with him, I could only imagine how he felt because we left on really bad terms on his end so i'm sure it was scarier for him does it make you feel like there's more healing for you to do in regard to that relationship like resentment anger or or that the forgiveness that you had is kind of felt more concrete i don't have any anger or resentment i really really don't and And I don't know if this is a bad or a good thing, but me and all my siblings, my mom, it could be on the fence with this one, but definitely me and my siblings.

When we like, we will be mad in the moment and curse someone out and yada, yada, you give us a year and we're like, we love that person.

What do you like?

We don't ever hold on to that bad stuff.

And we don't know if that's necessarily good because you sometimes you need to remember what people are capable of, but we're like, oh, but they're great.

And we'll recite these great things.

But I also think it is a beautiful thing because I want to remember the good.

I know what you are capable of, but I don't need to hold on to all of the stuff that happened too.

Cause I also feel like that was their journey.

That was for them to experience and go through.

And I was just a bystander.

Yes, I went through it as well.

But that journey is really for that other person.

I'm mind blown, honestly.

My God.

I mean it.

It's just, and I believe you so deeply.

I can, I can feel it just sitting with you in your presence, but it's so hard to do what you're saying for just in general.

And people always say forgive and forget, but I think for you, it's forgive and don't forget.

Yeah, no, it's forgive and don't forget.

And I think so much of it is empathy.

I think that that's huge, Chloe.

It's huge.

Like, I want, I really hope

I really hope you allowed that to sit with you and take that in today of just how huge it is.

Well, because most people say, oh, because you're so weak.

No, I think of it.

And I think it is a strength.

Like, whenever I remember when Tristan's mother passed away and

Tristan has a brother that's disabled, and his mother was Amari is Tristan's brother's name.

Tristan's mom was Amari's sole caretaker, and she passed away.

Tristan's house was under construction.

We had all these crazy rains.

His roof caved in.

Tristan and I were not speaking at this time.

Like,

there was not a chance I would speak to him.

And when Andrea passed away, I remember having Amari and Tristan move in with me because, yes, he could have gone to a hotel, but he need, Tristan and Amari both needed to be not isolated.

They both lost their mother.

Amari needs special living arrangements, caretakers.

There's a...

a lot that comes with Amari.

And so I was like, live here, your kids are here.

I got so much crap for that.

And I'm thinking, do you guys think this is weak?

I wasn't speaking to this man

15 minutes ago.

And now I'm offering to give my house here.

And

that,

to me, takes so much more strength.

And also to walk around the house in front of my kids and smile.

And because I'm not fighting in front of my kids, I don't do stuff like that.

But, and with Lamar, like for Lamar,

when his accident happened, his overdose happened at a brothel.

And he, you know, it's not like the, like I, I showed up at the hospital, not because I'm weak, because I was strong and I needed to take care of him because who else would have?

And I think people don't realize how much strength comes in those things.

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Don't ever let anyone tell you it's weak.

It's so not weak.

It's so powerfully strong, and you can see it in your heart.

And just that, a heart full of compassion, and empathy, and context, and understand.

I mean, you did that for Amari, right?

The other situation, it's like you're going, if you're not talking to someone and you're going against all of this, but you're recognizing that there's someone here who's vulnerable, unable to care for themselves.

Right.

And yeah, Tristan could have got a hotel, but you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But with Amari, and then, yeah, and I wanted Tristan to be with his brother because I've been with that family for years, but Amari knows he just lost his mother.

He needs to be around his brother.

And there were so many things.

But yeah, no, I think,

I think where some people call it weakness, they don't realize how much strength goes into putting your own personal feelings aside for the betterment of somebody else.

Yeah.

And the biggest thing is you're better off because of it internally.

And I think that's ultimately what no one sees apart from you is you have to go to when you're when your eyes close at night and you go to sleep, you go to sleep with that feeling of what you did and how you felt.

Right.

And if you were in bed that night going, I should have done this, I should have helped, I wish I did this, but I've got to look strong and I don't want to be weak.

Right.

But then you're weak.

You've just, you know,

stayed up all night trying to solve this issue in your head.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know, it's huge.

You brought up your beautiful children who I love seeing you with and they're adorable.

Thank you.

The cutest.

And I was just thinking that being a mom for you is just such, it feels like such a natural role, as you said earlier.

It's my favorite thing.

That it's your favorite thing.

And it comes across and seeing all the kids together and everything.

What do you hope as they grow up, do they learn about you and see in you?

What's your hope for them to understand about their mom?

Oh my gosh, I wish my phone's in the other room.

But I dropped True off at school today and they each wrote something about someone.

And True wrote, I love my mommy because there's kindness in her soul.

And she's six and I help her do her homework, which both were sweet.

But the sentence, there's kindness in her soul, I was like, what a profound thing to say and a deep thing for a six-year-old.

It was so beautiful.

And

that makes me feel, you know, like that I'm doing something right, that they don't love their mommy because she gives me presents or this or that.

Like I try to be as present with my children as possible.

We all have our phones.

We all, I'm not saying I'm never on my phone, but when we do have our time, I want to be on the floor with them playing games.

I'm not just going to buy them all these games.

And that's what they care about.

And they care about just.

the routine, the memories, the dinners, the

little things.

It doesn't have to be all day, every day.

I know everyone's working and everyone's juggling a million things.

But if you even only have 30 minutes with your kids, make sure to put your phone down for the 30 minutes because your kids will remember that.

And that 30 minutes, you can build such a connection.

And me and my kids, we talk and we, they take baths together, both of them.

And that's our time and how loving both my kids are with each other that I take such pride in.

Because I always hear stories about, you know, and I don't think I was that nice to my brother when I was little, but

I just want them to know that this is a house of love.

And like, for me, love is the foundation.

Love and faith is the foundation for everything.

That's so beautiful.

I mean, it shows.

I mean, that is such a profound thing for a six-year-old to write.

Isn't it?

I got it this morning.

I took a picture of it this morning.

I was like,

I am.

I was shocked.

I like, what a deep thing to say.

Yeah, it's so sweet.

We were talking about earlier society's expectations and pressures as you were growing up.

And as you said, it's so much harder on children today.

Yes.

Because of the access, right?

Before you knew what your class was doing.

Today, you know what the whole world is doing.

There are also kids that the whole world knows what they're doing.

Right.

So it creates so many.

How do you, what does it look like when you're thinking about this and you're figuring out how they navigate the world that they're growing up in?

What are the thoughts that come to your mind?

We went to

a restaurant the other night and the waitress kept calling me by my name.

She was like, Chloe, do you want another drink?

Whatever.

And True was going, How does she know who you are?

And I go, Oh, I just come here all the time, which I don't.

But they don't realize that we're on TV or anything.

Like, they don't know the difference because I'm not talking about it.

And I just think that's that's impressive.

I think that's so funny to me that she's like, How does somebody know your name?

Or she'll say, Why do they want a picture with you?

I go, Maybe she likes my hair.

Like, I always try to say like something and brush it off.

I don't know.

I don't want to make a big deal out of it.

You know, for my kids, true, she has an iPad that they can watch shows or whatever when doing her hair, but I have limited iPad time.

And I tell her she can't have a phone until she's 12.

And who knows if I'll keep that, but that's, I don't think kids need it.

Other than that, I think they have these amazing phones that are just for calling.

Now, I forget what they're called.

Yeah, I know you do my.

But there's no internet access.

And so I'm like, yes, if you, you know, you could have one of those phones, but just to call me.

But otherwise, why?

I don't want you looking at these things.

They're not on the internet.

Like, she's not on Instagram or TikTok or that kind of stuff.

I don't think that's necessary at this age.

I think it's really damaging.

But I try to not be on those things when I'm around them.

Like we'll film videos and I post them later, but we just think we're making like dance videos.

But I try not to be on those things around them because they see that.

I picked up the phone and we were at a red light and True was like, mommy, no texting and driving.

And I was like, oh my gosh, she's right.

I was at a red light, but she, they will also remind you if you're doing anything illegal.

They love to yell at you.

But I don't know what the world looks like for that.

I'm not someone that like covers their faces and does all that.

I feel like

I don't want to not be out with my kids.

and or feel like I have to hide them.

I feel like that would make my kids more anxious or ask more questions.

If my kids ever wanted to do something on TV or anything like that, we would talk it through.

But I don't push it.

I don't necessarily want them to.

But if they want to, then we can talk about it.

Yeah.

You were also saying that dating is something that you'd be open to at least one date in your 40s, I think you said.

I have 10 years.

Yeah, that's amazing.

And I was thinking like this idea of dating as a mom is harder, I'm sure, like with time and energy and effort and everything else.

Like, how does that even fit into that wheelhouse as you're thinking about it for all the moms out there who are thinking about dating in their 40s, which is very real?

I don't know if I'm the best one to ask because I genuinely, I have young, my kids are younger.

And so I am loving that.

I get to have so much time with them right now.

And there's going to be a time that no matter how much they love me, they're not going to want to be with me.

You know, they're like, I want want to be with my friends.

And yes, that's going to hurt, but I get it.

I was that kid.

And right now I'm truly happy and I don't feel lonely.

I've like, I'm so fulfilled with work and my kids.

And once they're asleep, like I get a little bit of alone time and then I go to sleep and I start again.

Listening to you, I'm thinking like, there's such a

just even what you're saying and just being happy with where you are, happy with yourself.

I wonder, does the evolved, the version of you that's been doing all this work,

how do you think about the right partner now versus how you used to think about it in the, you know, the click version before?

Like, how has that impacted what you look for, what you think about?

What I do love is that now I'm, I am forced to take my time with someone, where before

I would love a good love bombing.

I'm like, you left me okay.

Like, and I would just like roll with it.

Where now I think we could, you know, mildly love bomb, but I, I can't do much about it because I do love the love and the affirmations.

I do love all that.

I'm not going to deny it, but I have to move slow because of my children.

And that is a good thing for me.

Yeah.

I am so used to my routine right now.

I'm such a structured person.

I don't do a lot of socializing unless it's with my same group of people.

And someone said to me, why don't you throw like an event at your, not an event, but like I host a dinner at my house once a month and have your friends invite another friend.

And not even about for romantic reasons, but just for the fact because dating is a skill or even socializing.

Like my social battery is empty all the time because I'm not used to using it anymore.

If it's not in the daytime, I'm like, you want me up past nine?

That's crazy.

Like to me, I'm like, how do you stay awake?

I have to get used to.

staying up a little later, entertaining people, hanging out.

So I loved that idea of like maybe maybe once a month having a little dinner party with my friends if it's a group of people i don't mind if they are around my kids because it's a group and just meeting people it could be romantic if someone brought someone that i was like okay i like this person or it could just be me you know sharpening the tool of socializing with people again but see i love that idea because i think you've just hit on something for a lot of people.

I think so many people almost we do the extremes.

So one extreme is we're love bombing.

We get love bomb.

We love it.

Yeah.

It doesn't work out.

But then the other extreme is we get so comfortable being alone that we don't even know how to engage with others.

And I think we kind of oscillate between these two things where we just go back and forth.

Right.

As opposed to, I love what you're doing, which is, hey, let's create an opportunity for a connection, whether it's romantic or not.

Right.

And I'm practicing my skill.

It's not going to feel like this really daunting thing now when I have a conversation with someone.

And it kind of keeps it fresh for us.

And I think that's so important for people because we get so confident and comfortable being alone.

Totally, because that was me.

I have been alone for three years and I love it.

Like, I'm scared.

Yeah.

And I'm like, okay, I have to, I love this maybe too much where that worries me because I could do this for another five years and be so happy about it, but that's not normal.

Like, I need to push myself.

And for people that if you don't want to bring people to your home, you guys can like do this at a restaurant and have it be a monthly thing or every other month thing.

Like whatever is workable for your schedule.

I just loved that lesson.

And I can't do it weekly.

Like, I would love to in my brain, but that's too much social battery for me.

So, I'm like, I could do once a month where I just have a little gathering at my house.

And it is a skill that I want to work on.

Yeah, I love that for you.

That's such a great idea.

That's brilliant.

You might be invited to one.

Oh, I'd love to.

Let me know when.

I'd love that.

I'd love that.

That would be so much fun.

No, that sounds beautiful.

And one thing I've noticed about you throughout this whole conversation that I admire so deeply is you just lean into discomfort.

Just lean into it.

Oh my gosh.

And that's

so hard to do.

Wow.

I didn't think of that.

You just lean into it.

Whether it's the discomfort of forgiveness, the discomfort of moving on, the discomfort of accepting where you are, the discomfort of raising a family, the discomfort of people seeing you as being weak, the discomfort of dealing with external judgment.

You just lean into it.

Where does that come from?

Where did you see it?

Where did you experience it now that seeing as it sounds like it's the first time you're here.

Yeah, no, my wheels are turning right now.

I don't know.

I mean, I sound like a broken record, but so much of it is my faith.

Yeah.

And, but also.

But it is.

But I was raised in such a faith-heavy household.

My mom and my dad, faith is the foundation of everything.

And my dad, we went to...

Sunday school every Sunday.

Like everything was always about faith.

Prayers every night, prayers before food.

And I think when you're just raised that way, you learn to rely and lean on your faith whenever you need to.

And I'm someone that it's so easy to rely on faith when you're struggling and when something's bad.

But I, yes, I go to God when I'm struggling, but I go to God so much more when I'm happy because I am so grateful.

And I'm telling him, thank you for bringing me out of that spot.

And I think so many people forget to go to your higher power when you're in the best of times because that's when he wants you to acknowledge him too,

not just when you need him.

That's easy.

Like, don't just call me for help.

Like, I want you to call me too when you're joyful and there's so much greatness going on.

And so I, I do the same.

And I think the more that you talk about greatness, the more greatness then surrounds you.

Yeah.

I think, I think faith is just such an underestimated part of life.

It's sad.

I was watching the Academy Awards the other night and

I barely heard anybody thank God.

And at the end, Adrian Brody, he was, I think, one of the last speeches.

And the very first thing he said was, I just want to thank God.

And I don't know, that just made, I was like, it was sad to me that not that many people lead with faith anymore.

And not that you have to, but it was a big thing that I noticed.

I think people get scared now.

There's like this worry.

And I feel like things are coming back around again.

It almost feels like there was a time when you almost couldn't.

talk about it because you'd be judged for it or there'd be connotations or

you know things like that around around it and i definitely felt that as well where it was just like okay and and i think now that's coming back around where i think a lot of younger people in the world today are turning towards spirituality and faith and oh i love hearing that for that which which you're seeing in trends and conversations where I think people are having to look for higher purpose and higher meaning now because

it's really hard to find meaning and purpose around us.

Right.

And I think what you talk about it so beautifully is that it's a conversation.

It's real.

It's natural.

It's good and bad.

it's it's not like this ritualistic right process there's a genuine relationship yes that exists there which is what we're all looking for as well yeah yeah chloe it's been such a joy talking to you today honestly i love every moment i get to spend with you i do too i love you you have just reminded us of how we can be strong in tough times how you can look back on your life and move forward, how you can reflect and still feel so much growth and that we shouldn't be scared to do the work, and that we can be scared, but then we still have to follow through.

Yeah.

And I'm so thankful that my community and I get to learn from you and sit with you and really dive into so much stuff that people have seen play out for them.

publicly, but to really understand how you've been processing it behind the scenes is really a gift.

So thank you so much.

Well, thank you, Jay.

And it's bottom of my heart.

It's so easy to talk to you.

And I love and adore you and being in this safe space.

So, thank you for allowing me to be vulnerable and feel so safe with you.

Thank you, Mary.

You're the best.

Thank you.

Thank you.

If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Kendall Jenner on setting boundaries to increase happiness and healing your inner child.

You could be reading something that someone is saying about you and being like, That is so unfair because that's not who I am.

And that really gets to me sometimes.

But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like, But I know who I am.

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This is an iHeart podcast.