Bill Gates: The Untold Story of Who Bill Gates REALLY Is

Transcript

Speaker 4 This is an iHeart podcast.com.

Speaker 7 Amtrak, Retrain Travel.

Speaker 10 This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

Speaker 13 And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

Speaker 19 When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one-of-a-kind experiences, experiences like music festivals and sporting events.

Speaker 8 And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide.

Speaker 25 Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 27 Trust me, discover more at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 28 Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank NA.

Speaker 12 Member FDIC.

Speaker 15 Subject to credit approval.

Speaker 30 Terms apply.

Speaker 14 What are you doing this Thanksgiving?

Speaker 8 Besides overindulging and watching football?

Speaker 14 Well, maybe take the opportunity to reconnect with some friends through Facebook.

Speaker 31 Comment on an old friend's post or post to a Facebook group telling the gang you want to get together.

Speaker 25 I'll even write it for you.

Speaker 33 Hey everybody, let's meet at mine for pizza and football.

Speaker 15 Facebook offers a great way to connect and a little connection goes a long way.

Speaker 20 Let's reconnect this holiday season with Facebook.

Speaker 35 Hey everyone, it's Jay Shetty and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour.

Speaker 4 For the first time ever, you can see my on-purpose podcast live and in person.

Speaker 35 Join me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests.

Speaker 15 It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader.

Speaker 38 We'll dive into experiences designed to inspire growth, spark learning, and build real connections.

Speaker 5 I can't wait to see you there.

Speaker 11 Tickets are on sale now.

Speaker 35 Head to jshetty.me and get yours today.

Speaker 1 This is a world where somebody can have over $100 billion.

Speaker 1 What? is that? These fortunes are almost illegitimate unless in a very smart way given back.

Speaker 43 One of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy.

Speaker 1 Exploring and investing in innovative solutions to some of the world's toughest problems. Bill Gates.
Starting with Microsoft, where I had monomaniacal focus, giving up weekends and vacation.

Speaker 1 It wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it.
The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed, so it was kind of fun saying, no, no, this is really going to be mainstream.

Speaker 38 If you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy.

Speaker 45 What was it actually like?

Speaker 1 He said we were the General Motors and he was Mercedes. Social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be.
Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not at all factual.

Speaker 1 I've always underestimated how incredible my father was. He would say, hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard.
And I'd say, no, no, that was fine. I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did.

Speaker 1 It brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.

Speaker 38 Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him?

Speaker 1 The number one health and wellness podcast.

Speaker 12 Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.
The one, the only Jay Shetty.

Speaker 38 Bill Gates, welcome to On Purpose.

Speaker 15 Thank you so much for this opportunity.

Speaker 48 I'm so grateful.

Speaker 1 Great to be here.

Speaker 29 I have to start by saying that when I was reading source code, I believe I got an unbelievable perspective and a deep sense of gratitude that I didn't have before for how hard it is to build code, software, and computers.

Speaker 6 And I really feel that my generation and beyond have often taken for granted these inventions.

Speaker 49 And so I just wanted to start by saying that's what.

Speaker 49 took me by surprise and I was blown away as to the challenges of getting access to even using a computer through being given permission through to all the other battles that came with that journey, I was really, really amazed and taken aback.

Speaker 1 So, thank you for that.

Speaker 6 How does that feel hearing that?

Speaker 1 The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat, you know, ridiculed. So, it was kind of fun to be part of a movement saying, no, no, this is really going to be mainstream.

Speaker 1 We're going to make them cheaper and better. And,

Speaker 1 you know, the fact that I was lucky enough through my experience to be in on that secret and to get to kind of lead the way, you know, seeing that software would be the missing piece, I couldn't have been more lucky.

Speaker 1 And, you know, now that's given me a lot of resources to

Speaker 1 give back.

Speaker 41 Absolutely. And that's what I wanted to ask you.

Speaker 49 The first question was, what would you say is the most recent invention that you've genuinely been impressed by?

Speaker 60 Because I imagine that's quite hard for you, but is there a consumer product or something that really took you by surprise and that you would say impressed you?

Speaker 1 Well, my whole career has been about innovation, whether it's Microsoft with software and now all this incredible AI advance.

Speaker 1 I do work on climate, which, you know, we're trying to come up with innovation that can make clean products cost as little as the dirty products so we can get them out there.

Speaker 1 And then my full-time work is the

Speaker 1 Gates Foundation, where we're always coming up with new vaccines, new drugs. You know, we're even trying to come up with a way to cure HIV so you don't have to keep taking the medicine there.

Speaker 1 You know, I'd say the current work to understand why kids get malnourished is the thing I'm most excited about.

Speaker 1 40% of kids in Africa don't develop their body or their brain and understanding, okay, what is it?

Speaker 1 They're getting enough calories, but there's something about that mix that you know, they never achieve their potential either for themselves individually or for the country that they're part of.

Speaker 1 So I've gotten to be,

Speaker 1 there's so many cool innovations and that the pace of all of that is going faster today than ever in my lifetime. So it's a real privilege to work with innovators and

Speaker 1 back some of them on things like malaria or malnutrition, which the market doesn't get resources to do that work. And that's where philanthropy can make a very dramatic difference.

Speaker 62 Absolutely.

Speaker 38 And as you were saying, discovering your potential was something that really happened for you on a lot of hikes that you went on in the book.

Speaker 38 And I loved learning about how being outdoors was such an integral part of your childhood and growing up.

Speaker 63 And I was wondering if you could go on any hike in the world, anywhere right now, where would it be?

Speaker 15 Where would you choose to be?

Speaker 1 I take a lot of vacations near beaches and I, you know, enjoy

Speaker 1 whoever I'm with getting, you know, two or three hours walking on the beach. You know, that's a great way to get updates from my kids and have them share what they're doing.

Speaker 1 I will say the forest hiking that I did as a child up in the Seattle area, it's called the Olympic Peninsula there. There's just unbelievable hikes.

Speaker 1 And even though in that group of boys, I was the least capable hiker and I would always vote for the shortest hike and going home the soonest, just the camaraderie and the kind of beauty, you know, was so stunning.

Speaker 1 I really have to get back and do some of those.

Speaker 1 I haven't done a lot of that since

Speaker 1 I was young.

Speaker 41 Wow, wow.

Speaker 31 Is it just a lack of time?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I gotten myself so busy. I mean, you know, starting with Microsoft, where I had a monomaniacal focus, you know, kind of giving up weekends and vacation because I wanted to move faster.

Speaker 1 It wasn't some big sacrifice. I

Speaker 1 loved it, but it meant that I shut a lot of other things out.

Speaker 1 And then only when I retired from Microsoft did I get to go back and and take a little more time off and, you know, see all the other great things going on in the world, including all this health stuff that is the thing I spend the most time on now.

Speaker 62 Yeah, there's so much conversation today, I feel, about work-life balance.

Speaker 48 Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time was necessary for the levels of success, or would it have been possible in another way?

Speaker 1 No, I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though we were the first,

Speaker 1 and we had a broader concept of software than the other companies, we needed to be what I would call hardcore.

Speaker 1 And, you know, in that case, the work is what I want to do.

Speaker 1 It's not like, oh, God, you know, I've got to earn a little bit more money.

Speaker 1 It's, you know, this is the thing that throughout my childhood, I was so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some early friends, school I went to, I had these exposures to computers that

Speaker 1 were

Speaker 1 very rare.

Speaker 1 And so I had, you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience and great feedback on, okay, how do you do it better from the very best adults? I got to see what was coming.

Speaker 1 And the idea of being part of making that real,

Speaker 1 you know, I woke up and said, okay, I'd love to get to work. My younger self could stay in, you know, days at a time.

Speaker 1 I don't do that now, but then it was just in no way a hardship, you know, because I felt we were part of something that

Speaker 1 would be very empowering. And

Speaker 1 competitively, I wanted us to be the ones to make it happen.

Speaker 61 One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is, you've said, we overestimate what we can do in one year and we underestimate what we can do in 10 years.

Speaker 30 At the beginning, did you over or underestimate yourself?

Speaker 1 Well, people, when they would hear us say a computer on every desk and in every home running Microsoft software, they were like, you kids are really out of it.

Speaker 1 I mean, every desk, every home, you know, what would people do with these things? But because the chips were improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years,

Speaker 1 it allowed us to think of the computing part as essentially being free. And so the only thing that would hold you back is, you know, okay, can you help people with photographs?

Speaker 1 Can you help them with documents? Can you help them stay in touch with people far away or find information? And we knew over time

Speaker 1 that as these things got better,

Speaker 1 it would be part of the mainstream. And so as people sort of came around to that, they were like, wow, whether it's at work or at home, this is just part of how people do things.

Speaker 1 And we wanted. you know, to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere, you know, even in in the countries that are low income.

Speaker 54 You mentioned your parents earlier.

Speaker 7 And when I was reading this book, I felt like they are such a big part of this book and the storytelling and the incredible experiences and memories.

Speaker 15 And one of the things you mentioned is you say that they felt that they accepted that you were different from your peers.

Speaker 6 And I was wondering in what way, how did you know that they'd seen that and accepted that?

Speaker 1 Well, it definitely confounded them that sometimes I was pushing back in a pretty tough way, you know, as though, you know, we were in some competition.

Speaker 1 They would hear from teachers, and they were very good about staying in touch with my teachers. You know, some teachers would say this kid should be skipped ahead, one or two grades.

Speaker 1 Some teachers would say, this kid should be held back. You know, so that kind of is what? You know, make up your mind.

Speaker 1 You know, I had one experience where I worked on a report about the state of Delaware, and I ended up doing this 200-page report with the Great Wood cover.

Speaker 1 Well, the other kids turned in, you know, five or ten-page reports. And it was very embarrassing that I thought, wow, did I, you know, kind of overdo this thing?

Speaker 1 And yet, you know, that ability to concentrate, you know, would hold me in good stead in terms of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity first to cards, then to math, and then finally to software.

Speaker 1 And how would software change the world?

Speaker 1 But they never were quite sure what to do. And sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant.

Speaker 1 And sending me to a very nice private school where the classes were a bit smaller and I could get, I always got an unfair share of attention from the teachers.

Speaker 1 We'd have like 15 people in the class, but almost 20% of the teachers' time in terms of telling me what to read or marking my writing up, up you know i i got an unfair share partly because my curiosity or energy level you know did mark me out uh in both positive and and negative ways yeah what what influence do you think dr cressy actually had on you because therapy at that time and in your early age looking back on it now what do you feel it gave you what skills did it give you well it's a very it was a very rare thing in fact the other people coming to him were these couples that were having arguments and so in a i hope privacy privacy-appropriate way, he would kind of give me a sense of that.

Speaker 1 He gave me a few IQ tests. He, you know, had me read about Freud and all these things.
But slowly but surely, he was

Speaker 1 saying to me that

Speaker 1 fighting your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they really do love you.
They're on your side. You should apply your energy towards other things.

Speaker 1 And, you know, eventually he made me feel kind of foolish. Like, yeah, why was I taking these what I thought were kind of arbitrary rules or where my mom would say, you should respect me.

Speaker 1 And I'd say, well, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 And a little bit as I figured out I could understand things like playing cards as well or better than my grandmother, or, you know, I could read books that had complicated things.

Speaker 1 I was a bit showing off to saying, because my cognition is good, why should you be able to set arbitrary rules? But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I think about it now. But Dr.
Kressy

Speaker 1 was so encouraging to me in general and then got across.

Speaker 1 He probably understood at the first meeting

Speaker 1 that I

Speaker 1 had to be convinced to make this change. But he did it in this super nice way.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 the idea that, no, my parents, yes, they're imperfect, but wow, they're on my side.

Speaker 1 That changed my behavior.

Speaker 70 Yeah.

Speaker 15 And did he also had these beautiful ways of you said he never belittled you.

Speaker 38 And I believe he used to mention to you, you're going to win or he wanted you to win.

Speaker 10 And I feel like that's, what did those things do?

Speaker 6 Because it's almost like you're saying he made you have this, almost this realization that you were wrong, but it seemed like he did it in a very graceful, elegant way.

Speaker 57 Like, how did, how did he do that?

Speaker 1 You know, I thought, oh, I need to be so clever to win and I'm going to apply all this energy to win. And so the idea when he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh, I see.

Speaker 1 It's not because I'm clever. It's because it's us, you know, they care for me and they're trying, you know, to help me.

Speaker 1 And, you know, their main concern is, am I ready, you know, to go out in the world? And if I have capabilities, will I develop those and use those? And,

Speaker 1 you know, my mom always had a way of kind of pushing me to do more. I said to her once, you know, you told told me to go to the heart of school.
And she said, no, I never actually said that.

Speaker 1 And I said to her, well, wait a minute. When other parents would come over, you'd say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't go to college or something like that.

Speaker 1 So, okay, it was indirect, but, you know, it was kind of there. So, you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know, and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that.

Speaker 1 But my eventual reaction to just, okay, try to outdo any levels she set and ended up working out well.

Speaker 70 Yeah.

Speaker 64 What was something that you didn't value about your mom at that time that now looking back, you say, no, I do value that?

Speaker 1 Well, things like table manners.

Speaker 1 I'm like, well, you know, okay, I have to take the ketchup and put it in a bowl and then do this. And I'm not supposed to put my elbows on the table.
And, you know, she was just.

Speaker 1 you know, trying to make sure I was civilized a little bit, you know,

Speaker 1 what I would wear. And they definitely got me engaged with adults.
You know, my social skills were slow to develop with people other than a few boys like myself.

Speaker 1 But with adults, because they were having them over and I, you know, got so I could ask those adults to talk about what they were doing.

Speaker 1 That was really valuable to me because I ended up through that and through one of my early friends, having more of an outlook of, okay, where am I headed at quite a young age,

Speaker 1 which

Speaker 1 was super helpful.

Speaker 22 Yeah, it's so funny.

Speaker 42 As I was reading the book, I was reminded of, so when I graduated from college, I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left to become a monk.

Speaker 30 And my parents were,

Speaker 6 they were very kind and accepting of my decision, but my mother still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture of me graduating, wearing the hat and, you know, holding my certificate.

Speaker 10 And I remember I was having the same feeling that you were where my mom would always say to me, oh, when I go to my friends' houses, they're telling me about all the jobs that their kids are doing and the apartment they just moved into and you're just there being a monk.

Speaker 73 Like, you know, she'd say that to me.

Speaker 49 And it was always that kind of feeling, like that, that sense of pressure to live up to something she wanted me to do, even though there was love and there was acceptance.

Speaker 51 And I was wondering for you, like.

Speaker 10 You said it yourself.

Speaker 75 She was such a powerhouse.

Speaker 51 She had such high expectations. When did you feel that you've reached that?

Speaker 37 Or do you feel you've reached that?

Speaker 1 Well, unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early 60s.

Speaker 1 She got breast cancer.

Speaker 1 And so I had gotten married six months before she passes away. So she never got to see that I tried to follow her example as a parent.
She never got to see the foundation get going.

Speaker 1 My dad actually ran the foundation and got it off to a fantastic start. So he was involved.

Speaker 1 But her sort of dictate about, okay, if you are successful, you have to give back, it's a shame that she didn't get to kind of participate and

Speaker 1 see that I'm following what she said

Speaker 1 despite all the times I pushed back on her. Yeah.

Speaker 75 Do you still feel that today, that it's almost like her voice is in your head and she's present in that way?

Speaker 1 No, absolutely. The, you know, the sense I have of, okay, I've got to do this and do that well, that's, you know, really came from her.

Speaker 1 My dad more set the example of being calm and thoughtful, you know, also great, great values, but much, you know, it wasn't through

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 interaction. He would, you know, leave pretty early.
And if my mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew you better give in,

Speaker 1 because that was kind of the ultimate thing. But yeah, so each in their own way, he, through example, her through high expectations deserve a lot of credit.

Speaker 1 And, you know, part of this book is to really honor them and two of the young friends I had who set me on

Speaker 1 a great path.

Speaker 76 I couldn't be more excited to share something truly special with all you tea lovers out there.

Speaker 76 And even if you don't love tea, if you love refreshing, rejuvenating, refueling sodas that are good for you, listen to this.

Speaker 60 Radi and I poured our hearts into creating Juni sparkling tea with adaptogens for you because we believe in nurturing your body and with every sip, you'll experience calmness of mind, a refreshing vitality and a burst of brightness to your day.

Speaker 14 Juni is infused with adaptogens that are amazing natural substances that act like superheroes for your body to help you adapt to stress and find balance in your busy life.

Speaker 20 Our Super 5 blend of these powerful ingredients include green tea, ashwagandha, acerola cherry, and lion's mane mushroom, and these may help boost your metabolism, give you a natural kick of caffeine, combat stress, pack your body with antioxidants, and stimulate brain function.

Speaker 76 Even better, Juni has zero sugar and only five calories per can. We believe in nurturing and energizing your body while enjoying a truly delicious and refreshing drink.

Speaker 76 So visit drinkjuni.com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code on purpose to receive 15% off your first order.

Speaker 12 That's drinkjuni.com.

Speaker 51 And make sure you use the code on purpose.

Speaker 15 I was wondering, what was your biggest realization about your father from writing this book?

Speaker 1 It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.

Speaker 1 His values, even the exchange with my mom, you know, before they get married,

Speaker 1 one of his dreams was to be a federal judge. And he eventually, that was offered to him.

Speaker 1 And because his law firm would have had great difficulties, he said, no,

Speaker 1 that would hurt my colleague, so I'm not going to do that. And I had written him a note saying, gosh, I hope it's not.
because you had to pay all that tuition that you're not getting to do this.

Speaker 1 And I'd forgotten he'd written me back such a nice note. So, you know, in digging through, I'm amazed we ended up keeping those things.
It was so touching to me.

Speaker 1 Now, I, you know, I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to the example he set.

Speaker 71 What was it like finding that reply, forgetting that he had replied?

Speaker 1 I mean, well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes because, you know,

Speaker 1 he was incredible. And towards the end of his life, we did get a little more

Speaker 1 direct, you know, where he would say, hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard. And I'd say, no, no, that was fine to

Speaker 1 be doing that. You know, and so instead of things being sort of through my mom, when she was gone, he had to build up that communication.
And in a way, it was far more intimate.

Speaker 1 You know, I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did.

Speaker 37 How did, how does that, as that relationship evolves, like it felt like when I was reading source code, I felt like your father was there to always save you in these moments.

Speaker 46 Like he'd pick up the phone, he'd be involved in, you know, talking to you and your friends.

Speaker 49 Like he was there in these very pivotal moments that felt like like almost professional support from him, of course, based on his intelligence and background as well.

Speaker 30 But it sounds like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space.

Speaker 45 Like, what does that look like for a father and a son across all those years?

Speaker 1 You know, and when I was going off to college, you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks, but you know, you couldn't like text and send photos.

Speaker 1 And so, but I always knew, you know, that they were supportive.

Speaker 1 And so I actually got into a little bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the computer center and done some of the early Microsoft basic work.

Speaker 1 And the college, as they filled position to supervise that computer center, were like, wow, did you break the rules? And, you know, my dad was always so kind of wise.

Speaker 1 You know, when I ever was like, oh, my God. I may

Speaker 1 screw it up here.

Speaker 1 I better get on top of this. You know, that's a time where I call him in and his advice is very helpful.
You know, then later, we have a customer who's not paying us. And our very first

Speaker 1 customer, another case where my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So it wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot, but that when I was in trouble, he was the one person

Speaker 1 who was so sophisticated and

Speaker 1 on my side that his advice really did

Speaker 1 help me at a lot of key turning points.

Speaker 1 And then later, when we have a relationship where we actually talk intimately, I was able to thank him for that.

Speaker 63 Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him?

Speaker 1 Well, he got Alzheimer's. And

Speaker 1 because he was such a nice person, he was still super nice, you know, always worried, did his caregivers get enough meals?

Speaker 1 Or, you know, eventually the fact he grew up in the depression showed because he'd be worried about, you know, are we buying too expensive a meal, you know, even though he had as much money as he could ever need.

Speaker 1 You know, so

Speaker 1 we got back to his basic character, which was just very

Speaker 1 friendly and

Speaker 1 thoughtful.

Speaker 1 So, yes, I feel like in his case, we did have those conversations that

Speaker 1 I never got to have with my mom.

Speaker 75 There's the one phone call you described, the three words he used of I hear you when he was talking to the school and that left such a strong imprint.

Speaker 75 Could you tell us why that was such a big moment for you at that time?

Speaker 1 Well, I was in this contract discussion with this group I thought owed me some computer time. So that's the first time that my dad

Speaker 1 is pitching in to help.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I thought, what's he going going to do? Is he going to

Speaker 1 threaten them or be tough on them?

Speaker 1 And no, not at all. The fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument and then he just simply said, I hear you, which was this way of saying, you know, I don't agree with that.

Speaker 1 You know, let's try and reach a compromise here. You have your point of view.

Speaker 1 So just the way he said, I hear you, you know, kept things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position so we could get on to the, hey, you know, if you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both of you here, which is what

Speaker 1 eventually came out of it. And so the idea of being subtle and helping to find that common ground, I was young enough to, that was kind of blew my mind.

Speaker 1 Yeah, wow, you can kind of hold your ground, but without being provocative.

Speaker 48 What would you say is the one way your mother influenced your parenting style and then your father influenced your parenting style?

Speaker 1 Well, this idea that is actually kind of school called love and logic, where you make expectations to the child very, very clear and you make consequences very, very clear.

Speaker 1 And in an unemotional way, you say, no, you're going to have to go to your room because we agreed if you did this, that's what happens. My dad practiced that approach.

Speaker 1 My mom probably wanted to, but then if she was frustrated, you know, she'd be, oh, I'm so disappointed and kind of bring emotion into it.

Speaker 1 So the intensity of how much my mom cared, I, you know, I think that was great. And I think kind of that calm, predictable, hey, the world

Speaker 1 works in a clear way and you know, I'm on top of the world and here's what I need from you. You know, that very much came from my dad.
So I tried to be a little more around.

Speaker 1 You know, my wife Melinda did deserves all the credit that our kids have come out so well because she really was around. But I tried to be, that's the one thing I did a bit differently than my dad was

Speaker 1 more

Speaker 1 intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication, not through their mother.

Speaker 15 How did you reconcile that towards the end about your father's style?

Speaker 68 And how did you make space for that and accept that?

Speaker 1 In that generation,

Speaker 1 you know, my dad's career was a very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of adults around for events, you know, was connected to his career.
And, you know, he did very well.

Speaker 1 He was a top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea that

Speaker 1 my dad... was very busy.
You know, you had kids early. You know, the man's career is important.

Speaker 1 Later, my mom also not only is doing volunteer activities, but as people wanted women on boards because she had the right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities and she

Speaker 1 got a little busy herself.

Speaker 1 You know, I don't think the amount of time is the only

Speaker 1 key factor there.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I'd have to agree.

Speaker 49 When I was reading it too, I was thinking that, and this was what I found so interesting, Bill, when I was reading source code, code, that even though you have lived such a otherworldly life in so many ways, there were so many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint.

Speaker 63 And when I was reading it, I was thinking about my father, too, who wasn't around a lot when I was younger.

Speaker 50 He was working.

Speaker 54 Both my parents had to work.

Speaker 38 And to the point you just made right now, like my father wasn't there when I was playing rugby or he wasn't there when I was swimming for my, you know, local club or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering.

Speaker 51 And for me, that really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be.

Speaker 49 And it allowed me to have more freedom almost to not feel like there was this heavy expectation.

Speaker 49 And I've always seen that as a positive thing because it allowed me to have a broader definition of what it meant to be a man, what it meant to be a son, what it meant to go off and discover something that I was passionate about.

Speaker 49 And so even seeing you kind of having your mother be the one who was almost, you know, pushing the expectation and what the family should be, but then having a bit of freedom it was interesting to see how that impacted you to be able to push back to be able to you know even at one point like you said in that letter like parent him almost in his decision uh and and and play that role so it was it was refreshing for me to read a book about you where i was where i was actually seeing parts of myself uh in certain relationships in a very relatable way.

Speaker 49 Did you ever anticipate that when you were writing it?

Speaker 1 I was surprised, you know, so when I'm describing going on those hikes, I was thinking, boy, would I have let my son go off?

Speaker 1 And we really are holding back children a bit more, you know, out of a sense of, okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But, you know, in that generation, I was allowed to take trips and hikes.

Speaker 1 And I think it benefited me. And so writing the book, I was like, wow.
And you've talked with people like Jonathan Haidt about this.

Speaker 1 Are we a bit over-protecting

Speaker 1 kids so that they don't get to make mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that is best for them?

Speaker 66 Do you think school's failing children?

Speaker 1 If you have 30 people in a class, it's pretty tough. You're going to have some kids who are behind and some who are ahead.

Speaker 1 Even the best teacher has got a big challenge with that. Education, I wouldn't say, is much better or worse today than a few decades ago.

Speaker 1 We've always always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in, you know, will that be helpful? And certainly, if you want to find information, it's been great.

Speaker 1 We're still working on that now with the

Speaker 1 AI. Maybe a personal tutor will be encouraging and work on your level.
It's early days, but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms. People like Saul Kahn with Conamego that our foundation is

Speaker 1 helping to support. But education,

Speaker 1 the computer has not made it so, oh, wow, kids learn a lot more today

Speaker 1 than they did a long time ago. And I still believe we can change that.
But it means if you're in one of those large classes, you can feel lost. And

Speaker 1 we're missing great human potential.

Speaker 60 What are we getting wrong?

Speaker 15 Because it sounds like you felt maybe the computer would.

Speaker 48 give people that impetus and the ability to download more and learn more.

Speaker 60 Where have we gone wrong?

Speaker 1 Well, the key is motivation.

Speaker 1 If you have a kid who's super motivated then yes going to the con website and doing you know hours of math problems that's great but in a way that takes the kid who's in that top 20 percent and makes him even more intimidating to the other ones and you know people can come in and if a kid in eighth grade says is math a subject

Speaker 1 you have any confidence in if they answer no to that they're five times more likely to drop out. And so we do lose kids, and it's more out of motivation.

Speaker 1 And so, most of the stuff we've done on the computer is about, okay, if you are motivated, we'll help you out, and not so much about how you make it feel relevant to them and give them a sense of success.

Speaker 1 And maybe this time around with these AI personal tutors, we'll get that right.

Speaker 1 But kids check out of, no, I'm not one of those kids who's good at math, even though for a lot of professions and, you know, for college courses, we require Algebra II

Speaker 1 tests to be passed in order to go on and even be a nurse or a policeman. So we have work to do,

Speaker 1 but more on the motivational side.

Speaker 4 Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University.

Speaker 58 If you're listening right now and feeling that pull to grow in your career or make a bigger impact, Walden is designed exactly for that.

Speaker 6 For over 50 years, they've helped working adults get the W with the knowledge, confidence and real skills to create meaningful change.

Speaker 45 What makes Walden stand out is how flexible it is.

Speaker 85 With Walden's tempo learning, you're in control.

Speaker 10 No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules, just a pace that actually fits your life.

Speaker 4 And everything you learn is practical.

Speaker 85 You're working through real-world scenarios scenarios that prepare you to make a positive difference in your community and beyond.

Speaker 16 You're also guided by faculty who've lived the work themselves, scholars and practitioners with real experience.

Speaker 85 This is the kind of opportunity that reminds you it's never too late to go after what you want. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it.
Head to waldenu.edu and take that first step.

Speaker 8 Walden University, set a course for change.

Speaker 45 Certified to operate by Chev.

Speaker 2 On eBay, every find has a story.

Speaker 55 Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee.

Speaker 33 Not just a tee, the band tee from the last show your favorite band ever played.

Speaker 59 You wore it everywhere until your ex started wearing it, which was cute until they dumped you and took it with them.

Speaker 33 Which was not so cute.

Speaker 65 Anyway, now you're on eBay.

Speaker 74 And there it is.

Speaker 24 Same tee from the same tour, still living in your memory, rent-free forever.

Speaker 58 See, the things you love have a way of finding their way back to you.

Speaker 94 But eBay isn't just forget whatever your ex stole back, it's also for that rare championship foul ball you caught, then heroically gave to the kid next to you.

Speaker 83 And where else are you going to find your first car?

Speaker 95 The one you wish you never sold, but now finally get the chance to take back home for good this time.

Speaker 89 Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 32 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 80 Comfort isn't just about how something feels.

Speaker 20 It's about what it's made of and what it stands for.

Speaker 92 The avocado green mattress is built on that belief.

Speaker 21 Each mattress features thousands of individually cased steel coils that move with your body, giving you world-class back support that helps you rest, recover and rise feeling renewed.

Speaker 79 You'll feel just as good getting into it as you do getting out of it.

Speaker 87 But real comfort also lasts.

Speaker 88 That's why avocado mattresses are handcrafted from certified organic materials for durability and long-term support, designed to stay strong and comfortable for years, not just a season.

Speaker 3 And there's peace of mind in knowing your mattress is made to some of the highest standards for safety, sustainability and social impact.

Speaker 57 Better for you and better for the planet.

Speaker 34 If you want to experience that comfort for yourself, visit an avocado retail store or one of their premier partners and try it in person.

Speaker 92 Head to avocadogreenmattress.com today and check out their mattress and bedding sale.

Speaker 96 Avocado, dream of better.

Speaker 49 Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that actually, because I do think that we think about changing education is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive, it is the motivation.

Speaker 15 I was thinking about how we put limits on ourselves.

Speaker 49 When I finished sixth grade, I remember before I went to high school, my favorite subject was math in sixth grade and my least favorite subject was art.

Speaker 56 And then when I finished high school, my most favorite subject was art and my least favorite subject was math.

Speaker 49 And it was just fascinating to me how that completely flipped over a seven-year period.

Speaker 71 And as I've grown up in my own life, I found that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where I naturally gravitate toward.

Speaker 56 But so much of that up until sixth grade was the limits or the things that were expected of me as opposed to what I was motivated and driven towards.

Speaker 15 And I was thinking about something you said in the book.

Speaker 49 You said that if you were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum.

Speaker 42 And I was wondering, how would that have affected you?

Speaker 69 How do you think that would have affected you?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people, being given a label is a pejorative to them and, you know, almost feels shameful.

Speaker 1 Although we know, you know, being on the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowers of concentration that if you find the right place, it can be helpful. Other people,

Speaker 1 they're glad when they get that because then they say, oh, that's why

Speaker 1 my social skills were slowed to develop. And

Speaker 1 here's some strategies that people like me have used. I'm not alone in this.

Speaker 1 I fit in. into this and it's actually a reasonably common thing.

Speaker 1 There isn't like some medicine, ADHD, you know, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with,

Speaker 1 they do have the

Speaker 1 folklinator all a variety of things they give kids for that. And I still wonder about that.
I haven't chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use those medicines.

Speaker 1 I think eventually you learn to, you know, adapt. I still kind of rock a little bit that...
when I'm thinking hard and without even knowing it. And it does bother people sometimes.

Speaker 1 And that's definitely kind of a what they call self-stimulation behavior that you know makes it pretty likely I fit into that diagnosis.

Speaker 48 Do you think it would have changed your trajectory of success? Have you thought about that?

Speaker 1 I worry that I might have thought of it as pejorative. It's really how you communicate it.
I mean, if you say, hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize at all, and you're, you sort of destined to

Speaker 1 never be good at those things.

Speaker 1 Obviously, to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go out and

Speaker 1 sell the dream of computing, I've had to, even though I'm not a natural,

Speaker 1 develop a lot of social behaviors. And it might have discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way.

Speaker 1 I think of that Dr. Cressy experience where he didn't make me feel terrible while enlightening me that I was wasting

Speaker 1 my time as well as my parents' time.

Speaker 62 Yeah.

Speaker 35 Did you continue therapy after that or ever go?

Speaker 1 Most periods of my life,

Speaker 1 I found it useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about, you know, what's confusing or what's troubling. I think, you know, I'm very lucky to to have that.

Speaker 1 I think particularly if you have a life where some extreme things happen, that

Speaker 1 luck is a huge part of that to

Speaker 1 keep you on the ground. A good therapist can play an invaluable role there.
So yeah, I've benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.

Speaker 38 Yeah, well, I was thinking about in the book, obviously you beautifully introduced us to Kent.

Speaker 38 And obviously the loss of Kent seems to be a place in your memory that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy.

Speaker 38 And you talk about in the book how you're not quite sure what your parents would have said and how it all felt.

Speaker 63 And I was just wondering if there were any,

Speaker 49 did you have support at that time through therapy and other ways to deal with that grief?

Speaker 1 No, and I've been looking recently at people like Anderson Cooper talking about, okay.

Speaker 1 How do you deal with grief? And a lot of what they come up with is that if you can keep talking about the person and what you got from them, you're kind of honoring them.

Speaker 1 Kent's parents obviously were

Speaker 1 the most affected by this because

Speaker 1 they would never have this incredible son and who would have no doubt gone off and done incredible things.

Speaker 1 And I remember spending time with them for like a year afterwards and then feeling a bit guilty

Speaker 1 that as I got busy,

Speaker 1 I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book, I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father.
I run into him right as I'm starting work on the book.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we can talk about what a great influence he had on me. And, you know, so I did think that was helpful.
But boy, it took me a long time because death, it was just such a shocking thing.

Speaker 1 I have this idyllic childhood. Other than Kent's death, nothing at all

Speaker 1 traumatic. And we're talking all the time.

Speaker 1 You know, a little bit, I reach out to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes on to found Microsoft with me, to step in and, you know, be that

Speaker 1 super close friend.

Speaker 1 But back then, the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly, hey, buck up, you know, get on with things, which after a few months, I

Speaker 1 did.

Speaker 62 Yeah.

Speaker 54 And also at that time, you're talking about how he actually invited you on the trip he went to.

Speaker 38 And, like, you're talking just before he goes off.

Speaker 15 And then all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute, we used to talk every day.

Speaker 62 Or, you know, and that it can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment, it feels like.

Speaker 59 How did you revisit that?

Speaker 30 When did you kind of turn towards working through the grief as you wrote the book?

Speaker 62 Did it feel like you were revisiting it?

Speaker 1 Because it was left to be a little bit different. Definitely.
You know, at that high school, when I built a hall in his name and, you know, gone out there and talked a little bit about

Speaker 1 the role that Kent played in my evolution.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 some efforts to

Speaker 1 honor him.

Speaker 1 Sadly,

Speaker 1 Paul Allen also, the other key friend in this book, died, I think, about six years ago from cancer. And, you know, he also was very key at getting me on the right right path.

Speaker 1 And there wouldn't be, you know, without those two friends, you know, there really wouldn't probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.

Speaker 49 Yeah, you talk about how Paul was setting you little challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this or do that.

Speaker 30 And then you'd go ahead.

Speaker 57 And I was thinking, how amazing to have a friend that can motivate and inspire you in that way.

Speaker 30 And then I was thinking about what you just said when I was reading the book that.

Speaker 15 It felt like you told so many stories of so many people in your life that are no longer here now.

Speaker 48 And so grief wasn't just about about Ken or Paul.

Speaker 15 It was there's so, you know, just so many individuals that you've had life with that you're having to process that with.

Speaker 38 What has been helpful for you genuinely deeply inside that has led to some sort of helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about all these wonderful people that you've lost.

Speaker 1 Well, most of my life has been about looking forward. Yeah.
And, okay, let's get this innovation and let's do it first. And, you know, whether it's software or

Speaker 1 saving children's lives, which is the big foundation thing.

Speaker 1 And it is a little bit unnatural for me to look back because you have to say, okay, how do I describe my relationship with my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her?

Speaker 1 You know, how do I talk about Kent? Where I don't know if he'd lived what would have happened, but

Speaker 1 probably, you know, something that he would have very much been a part of it. And so it's awkward to look back because you have to deal with these things and talk about,

Speaker 1 should have I have spent more time with his parents afterwards, because eventually I stopped doing that.

Speaker 1 But this year I turned 70. I mentally don't feel like I think of a 70-year-old, but it means I'm in the final third,

Speaker 1 no doubt, of what I've been very lucky to live. And so

Speaker 1 I really did force myself saying, no, there's some lessons out of this,

Speaker 1 telling people how lucky I was and maybe a few lessons for them as parents or how they

Speaker 1 navigate success.

Speaker 1 And so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it quite a bit. I have to say, when I'm reviewing it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm reliving these things.

Speaker 1 So it always takes me about three times longer to take some pages and edit than I predict. Or if it was

Speaker 1 something like about climate or pandemics,

Speaker 1 I'm pretty fast. There's no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing

Speaker 1 something scientific.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 53 What was your favorite part to relive and what was the hardest part to relive?

Speaker 1 Well, everything about the fascination we had.

Speaker 1 And you're like, what, we see this thing.

Speaker 1 These computers are going to be amazing. And, but no one else is saying that.
So we must be wrong.

Speaker 29 That's contradictory.

Speaker 1 And, you know, that contradiction. So, you know, Paul actually,

Speaker 1 I helped him get a job out in Boston so he could be out there and bugging me that, okay,

Speaker 1 should we go build a company?

Speaker 1 And then finally, when this kit computer, which is so limited, but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes comes out, then, you know, Paul's argument, we should go and do something, he wins because we don't want to be left behind.

Speaker 1 We want to be there from the very beginning. And then we meet a few people, although it was still a very small movement.
We meet other people like Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, who also

Speaker 1 have been infected with this idea of, okay, we're on to something that

Speaker 1 is going to be huge.

Speaker 39 That, Paul, I mean, the research that you did to find in this book, I was, every time I was reading, I was just like, how do you have so much detail?

Speaker 67 I was really blown away by the level of detail, both in the storytelling, every moment, but then even there's that note that you have that says, Steve Jobs called was rude.

Speaker 70 And I was just like, you know, even just having that back then, I was laughing as I read it.

Speaker 10 And I was wondering, like, I feel like...

Speaker 10 From the outside

Speaker 60 and naturally, and you talk about this later on in the book, how we see people as this like slither of who they are and people have a public profile and that becomes their brand.

Speaker 45 And if you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind of like arch rival nemesis kind of portrayal. What was it actually like?

Speaker 25 Because in the book, it comes across much more

Speaker 53 inviting than that, as opposed to this kind of harsh rivalry.

Speaker 1 Well, I had a fantastic relationship with Steve. You know, early on, I got to do the

Speaker 1 basic, which they called AppleSoft, that went with every Apple II computer.

Speaker 1 So I worked with both Jobs and Mozniak to get that done.

Speaker 1 Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write application software, a spreadsheet word processor for it.

Speaker 1 And so we actually had as many people as they did, and we worked very closely on that project. And he and I loved the fact that that ended up being a key Apple product.

Speaker 1 Then he leaves Apple. I talked to him about Next, but I never thought that computer would do that well.
So he was disappointed. But then when he goes back and he's

Speaker 1 it's unbelievable what a great job he did because Apple went from being on the way to Dyne to being the world's most valuable company. And Steve had really matured and it was something.

Speaker 1 And I, you know, we helped write software for that. Then later when Steve is sick, we had

Speaker 1 about five different conversations where we got to talk about kids and

Speaker 1 had computers done well and where he was pretty thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve

Speaker 1 you know, his skill set and mine, other than, okay, you know, madman leader, you know, drawing people people in.

Speaker 1 But he, his taste in design and user interface and even his intuition about people, he was just genius in a way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and write code.

Speaker 1 Whereas, you know, my thing is, hey, I'm an engineer. You know, here's the code.
Let's make it faster and smaller. So actually, that allowed us to get along because...

Speaker 1 you know what he was super good at i was not good at i envied those just incredible talents that he has. In some ways, he's more singular.

Speaker 1 You know, if you say to me, are there other people like you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I can name a number of people, including many who worked with me, but I don't know somebody who's who I say, oh, yeah, you know, he's just like Steve Jobs.

Speaker 75 Wow. Well, that's very humble of you as well.

Speaker 47 I mean, that's beautiful to hear.

Speaker 69 What were some of those final conversations like that you had with him that were potentially, it always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more so in those moments.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we were being thoughtful about the friendship.

Speaker 1 Walt Mossberg had us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing and surprised people because Steve was very harsh.

Speaker 1 You know, he was a, you know, always, he said we were the General Motors and he was like the Mercedes.

Speaker 1 But, you know, all in,

Speaker 1 it was all very fair.

Speaker 1 Well, we've, you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education and where both he and I had given speeches saying, of course, this will make education, you know, five times better.

Speaker 1 And we were like, wow, we got that one wrong. Maybe, you know, maybe next round we'll deliver on that promise.

Speaker 1 And, you know, how unusual it was, even a little bit lonely that, you know, when you were so successful and then you were having doubts about, okay, are we making mistakes here?

Speaker 1 You know, both of us had had kids by then. He was actually,

Speaker 1 you know, of course, he not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff. And because that was a realm I'm not in, I, you know, could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did.

Speaker 1 Now, partly picking people, but that's, you know, kind of amazing.

Speaker 1 you know, now

Speaker 1 part of Disney. And, you know, and both a sense of thankfulness, although,

Speaker 1 you know, he was very sick and just hoping some new drug would come along, and tragically it didn't.

Speaker 90 Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee, not just a tee, the band tee from the last show your favorite band ever played.

Speaker 34 You wore it everywhere until your ex started wearing it, which was cute until they dumped you and took it with them, which was not so cute.

Speaker 65 Anyway, now you're on eBay, and there it is.

Speaker 24 Same tea from the same tour, still living in your memory, rent-free forever.

Speaker 82 But eBay isn't just for getting whatever your ex stole back.

Speaker 94 It's also for that rare championship foul ball you caught, then heroically gave to the kid next to you.

Speaker 95 The one you wish you never sold, but now finally get the chance to take back home.

Speaker 5 For good this time.

Speaker 32 eBay Things People Love

Speaker 92 The Avocado green mattress is built on that belief.

Speaker 44 Each mattress features thousands of individually cased steel coils that move with your body.

Speaker 21 giving you world-class back support that helps you rest, recover, and rise feeling renewed.

Speaker 88 That's why avocado mattresses are handcrafted from certified organic materials for durability and long-term support, designed to stay strong and comfortable for years, not just a season.

Speaker 44 And there's peace of mind in knowing your mattress is made to some of the highest standards for safety, sustainability and social impact.

Speaker 92 Head to avocadogreenmattress.com today and check out their mattress and bedding sale.

Speaker 10 This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 11 I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

Speaker 11 Every time I travel, I find a part of myself I didn't know was missing.

Speaker 6 I remember being in this small town, completely unplugged, and for the first time in a while, I felt still.

Speaker 11 Travel does that.

Speaker 14 It grounds you, expands you and connects you to something deeper.

Speaker 11 That's why I'm always looking for experiences that go beyond the typical.

Speaker 19 Chase Sapphire Reserve makes traveling a breeze, earning eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel and granting access to Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide.

Speaker 25 No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 26 Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 12 Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA, member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply.

Speaker 61 Yeah. Was there a

Speaker 48 memorable piece of advice or conversation where you said something to him or he said something to you that has stayed with you?

Speaker 1 Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us, you know, in his case, he's an orphan.

Speaker 1 So he has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal.

Speaker 1 I don't have anything like that. You know, even though Kent died, that's not why, you know, well before that, I was somehow always, you know, pushing as hard as I could be.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I think both of us, you know, being thankful for what we'd been able to work on. I mean, you know, we got more of a front row seat and helped build this thing.

Speaker 1 Steve never got around to doing philanthropy. Now his widow Lorene is doing great philanthropy.
So, you know, that's,

Speaker 1 I'm sure he'd be proud of that. But he didn't get to that stage.
And I was just getting into that stage.

Speaker 1 So I shared with him a little bit about, wow, a lot of children die and we don't do much to stop that. And that kind of intrigued him, but then he never got to pursue it.

Speaker 38 Yeah, you're reminding me of something I read in Bob Iger's book where he was talking about how There was a time when Spielberg, George Lucas, they'd all sit together and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback.

Speaker 38 And they all felt very confident doing that because they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse.

Speaker 57 And so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Steven's going to steal my idea, or, you know, George Lucas is going to steal my idea because they felt so confident.

Speaker 52 And it sounds like, even for yourself, as competitors, to talk, to have a relationship, does that still happen today?

Speaker 52 Do competitors talk?

Speaker 24 Do they pick up the phone to each other?

Speaker 69 Was that very rare?

Speaker 68 Because it feels like

Speaker 57 it feels definitely now so less.

Speaker 1 I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself.
Maybe that drives everybody else together. I don't know.

Speaker 1 And, you know, over time, I think Elon,

Speaker 1 as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow out a little bit and

Speaker 1 probably be an incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes, there is some good conversation.

Speaker 1 Larry Ellison is now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy, and we're all a bit more reflectful. I mean, hopefully by the time you get to 70, you've been hyper-successful.

Speaker 1 You can, you know, relax and let your guard down a little bit and, you know, laugh about the things you got wrong.

Speaker 15 Yeah.

Speaker 47 What was some of the advice that you've given to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even more recently?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft,

Speaker 1 the one...

Speaker 1 Big challenge we had is we were so successful by the late 90s that we got into antitrust difficulties. And in retrospect, we could have handled that better.
And so I've been very

Speaker 1 open with Mark. You know, I used to brag that I didn't have an office in DC and I didn't, you know, what a great country that I didn't have to talk to politicians.
Well, that was a mistake.

Speaker 1 You know, now, you know, you've got all of them going to the inauguration. And, you know, so

Speaker 1 they're not making that mistake.

Speaker 1 Maybe they, have they corrected too much in the other direction? Well,

Speaker 1 history will judge. So, yeah,

Speaker 1 it's weird to be kind of an elder statesman.

Speaker 1 Satya, who runs Microsoft, has done such a brilliant job. And one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if it wasn't doing well.

Speaker 1 And so Steve Ballmer did a great job. And now Satya is with this AI generation.

Speaker 1 So that's another great blessing is that not only the value of the stock, but also the fact I can just focus on, okay, what about polio and malaria, you know, knowing that they're, they're taking the company to new heights.

Speaker 1 You know, what, what a great blessing

Speaker 1 that's been for me.

Speaker 62 Yeah, it seems like I love what you were just saying now that, you know, maybe there'll be a time when Elon turns to philanthropy and you talked about others.

Speaker 15 And it.

Speaker 73 And it seems that that turning point for you is so key.

Speaker 67 And I feel like you were one of the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one of the first to do it in a really big way to be able to move away from this big company that you founded, world-changing,

Speaker 47 generation changing, and then turning to that.

Speaker 38 And that service element to me, I was intrigued as to

Speaker 6 why do you believe that that's almost where every one of these people need to go.

Speaker 60 Like, why is it that you believe that turning to a life of service and giving back is core for Elon or whoever else it may be?

Speaker 1 Well, it's pretty insane. This is a world where somebody can have

Speaker 1 over $100 billion. I mean,

Speaker 1 what is that?

Speaker 1 And it's not,

Speaker 1 you know, you don't want to just give that to children and create some dynasty. That's not even a favorite to them.

Speaker 1 You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes.

Speaker 1 And if you're a great innovator and you know how to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there are some government is risk-averse, and particularly poor countries don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or solving malnutrition.

Speaker 1 There is something that philanthropy can have these outsized results in terms of lives saved, almost like a great startup

Speaker 1 does on the side of innovation. So, getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity to the poorest, both inside the U.S.
and

Speaker 1 outside the U.S., you know, I feel that, you know, we've got the golden rule.

Speaker 1 We're supposed to care about people.

Speaker 1 There are times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside the country is lower today than it's been, but I know that'll come back around because of the moral. logic there, I think,

Speaker 1 I believe

Speaker 1 is very, very strong. And I found it so fulfilling.
And I created a group called Giving Pledge of people who've committed to give the majority of their wealth away. And we learn from each other.

Speaker 1 Hopefully we inspire each other.

Speaker 1 And hopefully we change the societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune, most of it should combine with your talents and make the world a bit more of a

Speaker 1 fair place.

Speaker 66 Yeah,

Speaker 38 I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really fortunate when I went out and lived as part of my time as a monk in India.

Speaker 70 We helped put together a, well, the monks were doing it already, but I got to be a part of it, helped build a daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million kids a day.

Speaker 49 And it was all in exactly what you're saying, like to help the malnutrition children. And now they're even trying to figure out how much protein to have in it,

Speaker 51 like trying to figure out the actual composition as well.

Speaker 24 And I remember seeing that so early in my life.

Speaker 47 Like I would have gone out there first time in my teens and then later on when I became a monk in my early 20s.

Speaker 10 But the reason I raise it is because I think it goes back to what the point you made earlier about motivation.

Speaker 48 And one thing I've really been trying to figure out with the right partner recently is how when I grew up, I remember my dad used to read the rich list.

Speaker 72 And he'd have the rich list, like the Sunday Times or whatever it was.

Speaker 51 And so as a kid, I would see my dad and on the back of it would be the rich list.

Speaker 10 And I was thinking, how incredible would it be if kids grew up with a service list?

Speaker 38 And how would that change motivation?

Speaker 37 Because I feel we reward, we repeat what we reward.

Speaker 70 And I feel like we've never really seen that case study yet up until maybe, you know, your case study and the people that are following with the giving pledge, that service becomes a natural part of life at that scale.

Speaker 50 I think we see it in smaller communities.

Speaker 49 You see people with very little actually doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at that level.

Speaker 73 And so I find that changing that drive and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother had for you, your impact of faith had in you, I think that could be huge.

Speaker 15 I don't know what you think about people seeing a service list instead of a rich list or whatever the right word is.

Speaker 1 Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than

Speaker 1 the impact you've had philanthropically. And part of the the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there.
You know, I've tried to think through: okay,

Speaker 1 since we know how to save lives for $1,000 per life saved, wow, we better

Speaker 1 use this money

Speaker 1 as absolutely best we can.

Speaker 1 And I do think we're going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean,

Speaker 1 you know, these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are

Speaker 1 in a very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty, I don't think society should feel that good about it.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I sat down with Bernie Saunders and he said, no, he would outlaw billionaires. I think that's a mistake.
I think allowing in America, in particular, wild innovation, wild risk-taking

Speaker 1 is good. But then on the backside of that,

Speaker 1 there should be a strong expectation. And I think role models help a lot.
You know, Warren Buffett, in very different industry, very different skill set.

Speaker 1 You know, he's always been a role model and was the one who, even when I was

Speaker 1 still building the fortune, said, okay,

Speaker 1 your mom is right, you know, and here's some books you should read,

Speaker 1 you know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth, the history of what Rockefeller did, you know, because this will be

Speaker 1 as important a measure of your impact as making the money.

Speaker 47 Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful one to pass on.

Speaker 15 I think it was Trump who mentioned recently that you'd asked to see him to have a discussion.

Speaker 57 Did that meeting ever happen?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I had a very long and actually very impressive. impressive dinner in terms of he asked good questions.

Speaker 1 You know, I talked about over 10 million people are alive because of U.S. generosity with HIV medicines going back to President Bush in 2003.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I encourage him to keep that as a priority and to accelerate innovation.

Speaker 1 You know, there's an idea that you might be able to cure AIDS that we're working on, and he could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and how

Speaker 1 his leadership and the U.S. government resources are very important there.
And, you you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to meet with him.

Speaker 1 The fact he gave me that long period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions.

Speaker 1 You know, somebody may come along later and tell him to cut that money, but I make the argument as best I can

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 the moral purpose of the U.S. and how we're thought of and

Speaker 1 the fact that a cure is on its way,

Speaker 1 that's worthwhile.

Speaker 1 You know, so this administration is in charge and

Speaker 1 trying to help them,

Speaker 1 They're willing to cancel old things, some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't. So they're

Speaker 1 helping direct them so they'll use their open-mindedness to do different things and try and make that come out well.

Speaker 1 I think that's worth trying. Yeah.

Speaker 47 What do you see as the moral purpose of the United States and the way you mentioned it just now?

Speaker 1 Well, we've been the shining light of not only being a democracy

Speaker 1 ourselves and

Speaker 1 having political opponents respect each other and work well together, but also

Speaker 1 saying that even though we're in this very powerful position, we won't abuse that position.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 okay, if we allowed ourselves

Speaker 1 to let other people spend too little on some things,

Speaker 1 there's a balance there. But if you become too much of a bully and you're not keeping democracy, which requires reducing the polarization and bridging some of these divides.
That's a little bit scary.

Speaker 1 Democracy is a fragile concept, and particularly at a time when AI is coming along and the government will have to play a strong role in saying, okay, these jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore, here's how we help

Speaker 1 those people.

Speaker 1 How do we keep AI

Speaker 1 as a primarily beneficial thing versus a

Speaker 1 thing that bad people use and it messes up these job markets? That, I expect the 2028 presidential debate, AI policies, will be the most important thing.

Speaker 1 And I was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't discussed hardly at all.

Speaker 75 Yeah, that's such a good point.

Speaker 66 I didn't actually think of that, but you're right.

Speaker 50 It didn't come up at all.

Speaker 53 Yeah, that's fascinating.

Speaker 38 I mean, how do you prepare for something like that?

Speaker 73 It would

Speaker 38 need to be surrounded by the right people and having the parties.

Speaker 1 Well, you've got to educate everyone. You know, you can't count on the technologists to shape these things.
You know, social networking, we're still arguing about what the policies should be.

Speaker 1 And, you know, the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things that

Speaker 1 even if they're not at all factual and AI heightens all of that.

Speaker 1 And, you know, this is an era where getting the politicians to see the technology, including all this good stuff, personal tutors, better medical care, even making the government more efficient, you know, this is the most promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, you know, AIs actually are pretty darn good at

Speaker 1 reading and processing those kinds of things.

Speaker 1 So, you know, we're on the precipice of these AI breakthroughs, the reliability and capabilities.

Speaker 1 It's kind of an extension of what I worked on as a child,

Speaker 1 personal computers, then internet, then cell phones,

Speaker 1 and now AI. But

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 it's super intelligence,

Speaker 1 it's of a different character. And

Speaker 1 it'll put us to the test on how we work together within the U.S. and how countries work together.

Speaker 60 Yeah, it's interesting because as you're talking about social media there, I think Mark Zuckerberg on Joe Rogan were saying that they are taking away their fact checkers.

Speaker 38 And I believe Axe is X is doing something similar. What was your take on that?

Speaker 1 You know, this whole thing of how you balance free speech versus not, you know, discouraging people from using vaccines when that would be beneficial for them or

Speaker 1 even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial or some bad things there.

Speaker 1 I'm a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a clear prescription to how we achieve both the goals, free speech and yet

Speaker 1 reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some of which

Speaker 1 had me being some

Speaker 1 weird misbehaving actor, you know, which was a lot of craziness, you know, clearly over a million people died who

Speaker 1 should have benefited from the vaccine. And next time, you know, whether it's an out-of-control AI or the next pandemic, the impact of not getting facts out could be much more dramatic.

Speaker 1 I mean, the next you could have a pathogen that was 10 times or 20 times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once Omicron comes along. The fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and

Speaker 1 mostly elder people.

Speaker 1 So politics meets AI

Speaker 1 is where a lot of our fates will be determined even in the next 10 years.

Speaker 15 And how do you see a role in that?

Speaker 1 Well, hopefully, there's some things I really do

Speaker 1 understand about that. And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my foundation work on education and health,

Speaker 1 using it, the place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers and doctors is in poor countries in Africa. And so the fact that these things

Speaker 1 can give farmers advice and give a pregnant woman advice and look at what your kid is eating and say, no, you need more protein in this diet. And it's essentially free.

Speaker 1 The way that computing was free that I saw when I was young, now we're getting into this even more radical thing of intelligence will

Speaker 1 basically be free. You know, that's kind of wild stuff.

Speaker 1 So I hope both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons of a past of where we've been able to shape things so far, you know, so that I think personal computing has largely been an empowering thing.

Speaker 1 You know, I was reading this book, Nexus, where Harari says that when the printing press comes along, it actually is books about witches and how you find witches that are the best selling.

Speaker 1 So just thinking because we have new capabilities that will necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way, that's sadly a naive concept.

Speaker 55 Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee.

Speaker 33 Not just a tee, the band tee from the last show your favorite band ever played.

Speaker 34 You wore it everywhere until your ex started wearing it, which was cute until they dumped you and took it with them, which was not so cute.

Speaker 65 Anyway, now you're on eBay and there it is.

Speaker 91 Same tea from the same tour, still living in your memory, rent-free forever.

Speaker 93 But eBay isn't just for getting whatever your ex stole back.

Speaker 94 It's also for that rare championship foul ball you caught, then heroically gave to the kid next to you.

Speaker 95 The one you wish you never sold, but now finally get the chance to take back home.

Speaker 5 For good this time.

Speaker 32 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 92 The avocado green mattress is built on that belief.

Speaker 21 Each mattress features thousands of individually cased steel coils that move with your body, giving you world-class back support that helps you rest, recover and rise feeling renewed.

Speaker 8 That's why avocado mattresses are handcrafted from certified organic materials for durability and long-term support.

Speaker 81 designed to stay strong and comfortable for years, not just a season.

Speaker 3 And there's peace of mind in knowing your your mattress is made to some of the highest standards for safety, sustainability, and social impact.

Speaker 92 Head to avocadogreenmattress.com today and check out their mattress embedding sale.

Speaker 10 This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 70 I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given.

Speaker 11 Every time I travel, I find a part of myself I didn't know was missing.

Speaker 13 I remember being in this small town, completely unplugged, and for the first time in a while, I felt still.

Speaker 11 Travel does that.

Speaker 14 It grounds you, expands you, and connects you to something deeper.

Speaker 10 That's why I'm always looking for experiences that go beyond the typical.

Speaker 19 Chase Sapphire Reserve makes traveling a breeze, earning eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel and granting access to Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide.

Speaker 3 No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 27 Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 12 Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA, member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply.

Speaker 62 Yeah, I mean, you've raised such a good point there. Even this idea, I loved what you said that you said you wish your generation could have figured out how to have,

Speaker 51 not have these extreme polarizing conversations, but actually find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms, whether that be through how we use technology.

Speaker 56 What is it that, why do we keep doing that?

Speaker 50 It almost feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas, but then we always use it for almost the same thing or something that feels

Speaker 51 insignificant compared to what it could do.

Speaker 11 Where are we going wrong?

Speaker 60 Why can't we get that right?

Speaker 1 Well, it's kind of amazing how well humanity has done.

Speaker 1 You know, the violent death rate over hundreds of years have gone down a lot.

Speaker 1 You know, more recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten the annual death rate from 10 million a year at the turn of the century down to about 5 million, vaccines being the biggest part of that because we got them out to most of the world's children.

Speaker 1 So, humanity for

Speaker 1 a being that grew up in these small hunter-gatherer groups, now

Speaker 1 we have big cities, complex technology. Our ability to get along,

Speaker 1 in some ways, has been good. Nuclear weapons that when I was young, you know, my greatest fear was, okay, there was going to be a nuclear war.
And I do worry the current generation

Speaker 1 doesn't have that exposure to it. So, you know, the arms treaties and

Speaker 1 spending too much money on building those weapons. I do worry that we've lost track on that one, but at least we haven't

Speaker 1 used those.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we've done pretty well so far.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 will we this time? I think this is probably the hardest innovation because

Speaker 1 we do have human limitations.

Speaker 1 Even I, when I see an outrageous article against somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click on it and have it tell me, yeah, he's even stupider than you thought. Or, you know,

Speaker 1 this is a mistake. You know, we're all

Speaker 1 subject

Speaker 1 to that. And we do like to form into groups, but all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and

Speaker 1 government generosity, we can think of ourselves as being part of that as opposed to a much

Speaker 1 clan or

Speaker 1 race or nation.

Speaker 75 Yeah, I think on a global level, it requires what you were saying.

Speaker 15 And on a personal level, it requires us to almost be

Speaker 48 able to evaluate, assimilate, assess,

Speaker 42 have self-awareness, allow for self-reflection, space for, you know, the things we don't have time for anymore.

Speaker 84 You know, I was looking into something called the third space theory and how in the past you had your home, you had work, and then you had church or temple or community center.

Speaker 63 And how those three spaces, that third space was a place you could look back on home and work and say, I could treat my wife a little bit better, or I could have spoken to my colleague a bit better.

Speaker 49 And that third space allowed allowed that time and energy where it was all about reflecting on how you could improve.

Speaker 71 But today we've lost three spaces into two, into one where we work from home, live at home, and the screen is our third space.

Speaker 60 And so that lack of having a physical body or building that gives you permission to

Speaker 42 step back from your whole life, not play a role there.

Speaker 71 and actually purvey what's going on in your life, we've lost that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a shame.

Speaker 1 You know, the decline of religion is a very strong trend.

Speaker 1 You'd hope there'd be a modern religion that takes whatever is put people off and yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this, okay, at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.

Speaker 1 If you expect government to figure out how to solve things, you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church-based groups, oh, this person person needs help.

Speaker 1 I have extra time, you know, is way more effective. And

Speaker 1 so we expect too much from government in a way.

Speaker 1 So I hope we can re-energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious modernization or maybe just a community thing that is maybe spiritual, but not

Speaker 1 labeled. as religion.
That local engagement where you see other people,

Speaker 1 I think we need more of it.

Speaker 72 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 64 Bill, I've got to you for a couple more moments.

Speaker 15 And there's a few things I wanted to ask you.

Speaker 52 One was, you talked about how in the book, how

Speaker 15 being the smartest person in the room and that status was something that you maybe hid behind and your insecurities were hidden behind.

Speaker 30 And I was wondering, is that something that you've been able to put down that guard and take that away as time has moved on?

Speaker 84 How were you able to do that?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit,

Speaker 1 you know, to learn how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways.

Speaker 1 You know, at Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople at the foundation, you know, people who go out in the field and do heroic work. And so my, you know, sort of single view of, okay, math

Speaker 1 capacity is, you know, this

Speaker 1 great thing, I've... I've mellowed and been able to bring in different skill sets.
But no,

Speaker 1 I started off being pretty bad at that.

Speaker 61 What were those insecurities that you were hiding?

Speaker 1 Well, you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake in programming or math, I'm very tough on myself.
And I'm like, you need to spend more time.

Speaker 1 You need to work harder. And it's kind of a tough love,

Speaker 1 don't fool yourself

Speaker 1 thing.

Speaker 1 And so my early management style worked for people like me,

Speaker 1 but not as well for other people. And so, year by year, you know, I did grow with Microsoft.
A lot of entrepreneurs, you know, don't stay as CEO and you have to bring in someone else.

Speaker 1 I wanted to do that. And so, by bringing in some other people, I got better at that.
I would say moving over to the foundation was another level of how you

Speaker 1 bring in a different mix of talent. And so, yeah, I'm trying.
I'm still trying.

Speaker 1 I'll be better a year from now.

Speaker 15 Well, I was most excited that you said there's still two more books coming after this one to talk about the different areas of your life.

Speaker 49 And I really enjoyed this one so much.

Speaker 38 I'm so excited for people to read it, to get to know you better, to get to know the people that have changed your life for the better and allow you to do all the incredible, phenomenal work you do today.

Speaker 38 And I honestly am so inspired by the work you do today.

Speaker 57 And I really hope that I can be involved in some small way.

Speaker 62 So I thank you deeply.

Speaker 1 Well, thank you. It's been fantastic.
It means the world.

Speaker 55 Bill, we end every episode with a final five.

Speaker 50 These questions have to be asked in, answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

Speaker 15 So Bill Gates, these are your final five.

Speaker 66 The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 You know, finding what you really enjoy doing.

Speaker 1 And hopefully there's some job that... that has that as opposed to

Speaker 1 what jobs pay well or other people push you to. If you're doing something you really enjoy, that's hard to beat.

Speaker 71 And you found that early.

Speaker 1 I was super lucky on that.

Speaker 1 Computers were there right when I needed them.

Speaker 66 Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 People will tell you not to take risks. And

Speaker 1 it's very well-intentioned.

Speaker 1 But there are contexts. You know, when you're young, you know, like people say, okay,

Speaker 1 it must have been scary to drop out. Not really.
I mean, I could have gone back. You know, there's no flesh wounds involved

Speaker 1 in failure. You know, so failure is, you know, probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing.
And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know, emotional safety,

Speaker 1 in many cases, we've gone too far.

Speaker 60 Yeah.

Speaker 37 But did dropping out at that time feel like a big risk?

Speaker 1 No, it did. Not even.

Speaker 1 The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids and i was like if i can't pay this guy his check this is rude you know he's got a real problem and i'm kind of implicitly promising him i've got this thing figured out uh so that scared me yeah was that there's a scene in the social network where you're on stage and mark zuckerberg's in your in the auditorium and then they leave and they say the speaker just said the next bill gates could be sitting in this room and then mark goes that is Bill Gates.

Speaker 1 Is that true? That is absolutely true.

Speaker 1 Mark and I have laughed about that a lot, that our experience at Harvard, dropping out of Harvard, you know, telling people that, hey, we saw something other people didn't see,

Speaker 1 very, very similar.

Speaker 50 Question number three, what would you say is the most important problem the smartest people on the planet should be solving right now?

Speaker 1 There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest, which we're kind of losing that.

Speaker 1 But I would say shaping AI has for me

Speaker 1 risen to the top of that list.

Speaker 1 We need to do all those. We can't just skip, you know, the

Speaker 1 any of those. But this one is

Speaker 1 going to be a... a very big deal in in the in the next decade.

Speaker 57 And what would be your advice to the biggest business leaders in the world in regard to that?

Speaker 1 Well, I don't think you can count count on them. Their competitive framework is to go full speed.
And so only government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slow down.

Speaker 1 You know, for the good stuff, you want them to lower the price and get it done sooner.

Speaker 1 And so we can't, although, yes, they should be part of the dialogue and they're humans and citizens too, but you can't count on them because the metric for them is to go full speed.

Speaker 36 Question number four, what is your favorite mental health habit?

Speaker 1 You know, it's a very big deal for me to get time

Speaker 1 reading and

Speaker 1 thinking by myself, whether it's on a walk or going driving.

Speaker 1 When I was CEO of Microsoft, I took two full weeks, think weeks, one every six months, where I would just go off by myself and think, okay, is Microsoft on track? What are the trends?

Speaker 1 Towards the end, I'd write a memo, which actually uh was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists and turns like when the internet comes along or you know software is not reliable enough you know i need that time to think

Speaker 1 even though i love quick thinking you know being in a meeting and spotting a mistake most of my good work has come from the kind of slow thinking where i'm off being reflective and maybe coming up with some non-obvious ideas you know maybe is

Speaker 1 a little bit

Speaker 1 my, you know, being on the spectrum, I need that refreshment.

Speaker 1 You know, when I see my schedule with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll try and make sure the next week has a little bit less of that.

Speaker 1 But, you know, to maintain creativity, you have to have some calmness and be. not behind.
If you feel like you're behind, like you turn on your email, like, ah,

Speaker 1 oh, I'm late.

Speaker 1 You know, that, that, your creativity gets, gets squeezed out

Speaker 1 one of the first things.

Speaker 54 And does that think we need to be in nature?

Speaker 15 Are you away from everything?

Speaker 62 Is it, are you simply thinking?

Speaker 42 Are you taking books?

Speaker 38 Are you journaling? Or is it?

Speaker 1 I'm taking books to read, but I'm also taking very long walks

Speaker 1 and just thinking about things. And I love,

Speaker 1 I take a tablet of paper and write things down quite a bit. And, you know, I'm pretty religious.
I'm not taking phone calls. I'm not browsing the news.
You know, the news can wait.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm off by myself

Speaker 1 24 hours that whole time.

Speaker 1 Somebody can stick some food in.

Speaker 1 But,

Speaker 1 you know, that's kind of extreme. You know, there's people like Harari who meditate kind of an unbelievable moment.
I almost envy

Speaker 1 him. I don't think I would go that far, but we should be more in his direction than we are.

Speaker 72 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 15 And what's the book you've gifted most, actually? I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader.

Speaker 54 You recommend so many great books.

Speaker 48 What's the book you've gifted to people close to you the most?

Speaker 1 There's a Steven Pinker book called Better Angels of Our Nature

Speaker 1 that talks about

Speaker 1 even though in the short run we see

Speaker 1 how tough things are, if we zoom out a little bit and say, okay, 200 years ago, to be a woman, to be gay, you know, 30% of

Speaker 1 children die, you know,

Speaker 1 lifespan is less than 50 years. You know, that's not saying there's a guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen.

Speaker 1 But people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, you know, this approach to government is failing. Maybe we should try something radical, like not, you know, being fully democratic.

Speaker 1 I'm like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute here. Yes, we need to feel bad about

Speaker 1 the things we're not doing, but we also need to have a perspective.

Speaker 1 The system of scientific inquiry and democracy

Speaker 1 and widening our circle of care

Speaker 1 beyond our family, clan, nation.

Speaker 1 as we discover new things and we can share more resources. That really is working.

Speaker 1 It sounds

Speaker 1 naive

Speaker 1 to say that, but

Speaker 1 the books that really go through that,

Speaker 1 I find

Speaker 1 guide how I think about the world.

Speaker 38 Fifth and final question.

Speaker 60 If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Speaker 1 Well, if you look at all these religious texts,

Speaker 1 I'd say the... the thing they all eventually come back to is is the golden rule, which is to treat people how you would like to be treated.

Speaker 1 You know, I mean, say that you're about to be born and you don't know if you're going to be born a woman or an Africa. This is a thing that Warren Buffett taught me.

Speaker 1 You know, what you get to construct the world and how fair it is. And then we will randomly pick and you will be born in

Speaker 1 some place in some way.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, I think the construct that would guide

Speaker 1 the world you'd want for that is very much going back to that golden rule, not, okay, let's win wars, you know, let's out-compete or, you know, have more money or resources than other people.

Speaker 1 And so it's kind of a, it's one of the few universal truths that

Speaker 1 we should have that guide our behavior.

Speaker 75 I love that.

Speaker 38 Bill, thank you so much for your time on On Purpose today and genuinely so grateful for your time and energy.

Speaker 47 It was thrilling to talk to you and I love getting an early copy of the book and being ahead of the world on it. So thank you so much.

Speaker 1 Well, you know, I've loved our conversation. So look forward to more.

Speaker 54 Thank you.

Speaker 11 If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship.

Speaker 11 We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress.

Speaker 43 If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you no wonder our kids are struggling we have a new technology and we've just taken it in hook line and sinker and we have to be mindful for our kids they'll just be thumbing through this stuff you know their their minds never sleeping

Speaker 10 this episode of on purpose is brought to you by chase sapphire reserve i believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given and Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

Speaker 19 When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel and even access to one-of-a-kind experiences, experiences like music festivals and sporting events.

Speaker 8 And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide.

Speaker 25 Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 27 Trust me, discover more at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve.

Speaker 29 Cards issued by jpmorgan chase bank na member fdic

Speaker 15 subject to credit approval terms apply

Speaker 98 are your ai agents helping users or just creating more work if you can't compare your users workflows before and after adding ai how do you know it's even paying off Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 98 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 1 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 99 Fall is the perfect time to explore California in a brand new Toyota hybrid with 17 fuel-efficient options like the stylish all-hybrid Camry, the Adventure-Ready RAV4 hybrid, or the spacious Grand Highlander hybrid.

Speaker 99 Toyota has the perfect ride for any adventure. Every new Toyota comes with Toyota Care, a two-year complementary scheduled maintenance plan, and an exclusive hybrid battery warranty.

Speaker 99 Visit your local Toyota dealer and test drive one today. Toyota, let's go places.
See your local Toyota dealer for hybrid battery warranty details.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.

Bill Gates: The Untold Story of Who Bill Gates REALLY Is

Press play and read along

Transcript

More episodes from On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Addicted to Scrolling? 3 Small Changes to STOP Feeling Drained After Scrolling Social Media

Mark Rober: Feeling Stuck in a Rut? Use THIS Simple 3- Step Method Engineers Use to FINALLY Turn Your Ideas Into Reality!

Roxie Nafousi: Struggle With Low Self-Worth & No Confidence? (Use This Life-Changing 3-Step Method!)

I Reached a Major Milestone! 8 Life-Changing Lessons I’ve Learned From Incredible Guests Along the Way

Divorce Lawyer James Sexton: #1 Conversation Every Couple Should Have Before it’s Too Late (Use THIS 3-Step Script TODAY!)