Disney's Victory Lap, Online Privacy, and Guest Ruth Ben-Ghiat

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

And you've been gloating.

We've been both globe trotting, haven't we?

We have been.

Except you keep working.

You keep working.

I know.

So I was in Argentina with Louie, which I did a podcast while you were away with Lydia Polgreen and John Favreau and Louie.

But I'm back in D.C.

You know, I hate culture, but I feel like every once in a while I need to do something cultural for the kids.

So

I took the boys to Egypt and went with a, by the way, if you ever get a family you can travel with where the dad, where everyone gets along, you got to hold on to those people.

So we went with the Bjorgersons who are this wonderful, like lovely family.

And we did one of the things.

It wasn't the Galloways, but go ahead.

Yeah, no, we're the dysfunctional family where they, when they, when they recede to their cabins at night, they thank God that they are who they are as opposed to us.

And then, but we did one of these flat river cruises where you stop every day with an archaeologist who takes you on a tour of the Sphinx or a crypt or.

Oh my God.

How was it?

You know,

look, civilization and time and all this, a lot of the stuff that, quite frankly, I think about is

really brought home when you go through Egypt.

And the thing I register is that my kids didn't enjoy it.

But they're going to really enjoy it when they're older.

They're going to look back on it.

Oh, why didn't they?

Because no video games.

Well, they're so twitchy not being on their devices.

And you could tell they're kind of bored like three hours into the tour of, you know, the inside of a pyramid or whatever.

You can just see them getting kind of twitchy.

But I just know when they're older, they're going to,

you know, don't you think it's some things that you enjoy more after they've happened?

I had pretty good travelers.

Louis and Alex really went across the world, especially with Megan, who we worked for Google.

So she took them like everywhere.

Like, you know, they met the Dalai Lama at one point.

So they had kind of a different.

Well, you know, there's a word for

people who get audience with the Dalai.

Who?

Rich.

It means you're rich.

No.

She was with Google.

No,

she was aware of it.

Yeah, see above rich.

No, but it wasn't personal.

It was your stuff.

So she was.

He just admired your spiritual aura.

He needed to meet with you.

No, whatever.

I don't know why she was with the Dalai Lama.

I have no idea.

But in any case,

when she

would go to a lot of cool places, she went all over Africa with Google, because she ran Google.org, and that's why.

So they went all over Africa, all over,

you know, all over the world.

And so she'd often take the children, which we would pull out of school and thought it was a good idea.

And at one point, Alex had been to like so many countries.

It was crazy.

It was like an enormous, like more than I've been.

And

someone was like, he was, I don't know, eight or nine.

And someone's like, little boy, have you ever traveled anywhere interesting?

And he was like, I've been to 65 countries and I've met the Dalai Lama.

I've met the Dalai Lama.

Oh, that's so Alex.

He liked that stuff.

He liked all of it, and so did Louis.

I've been pheasant hunting with Mandelo.

How about you, Ben?

No, no, no, they didn't do that.

They did not do that.

Although, one time, Megan was on a plane.

They were going to Fez.

Google was.

This was a Google trip.

And it was with Larry and Sergei and a whole gang of them.

And they were going to

see Bono.

No, my kids did not go on this trip, but Megan was going on it.

And they wouldn't let me on the Google plane because Larry Page was like, well, you can look at it.

I wanted to see it.

And they're like, you can look at it, but you can't say anything.

And I said, I can't promise that.

That's literally what every woman I've gotten naked says to me.

You can look, but you can't touch your coming side.

Right.

Oh, no, no, no, that was good.

Oh, my God.

It wasn't good.

Promising porn humor.

Sorry, go ahead.

So they wouldn't let me get on it.

I dropped Megan off.

They wouldn't let me see it because I would talk all about it, of course, because I wish I could to this day talk about what was on the Google plane, but I never was allowed on it.

And then they were saying they had bought carb, this is really early, carbon credits.

They were into buying carbon credits.

And he was explaining it to me in detail, Larry Page, about the carbon credits.

And because they were going to fly around Kilimanjaro to see it from the air, like to see the problems of climate change by flying around it.

And I literally was like, but we're buying carbon credits because to make it better.

I was like, why don't you just not fly over Kilimanjaro to do so?

But that's what they were doing.

They were in

any

space tour.

Yeah, they were circling it.

Well, so where, where'd you go after that?

I went to Israel.

And?

Well, one, I talk a lot.

One of the many things I don't like about myself is I virtue sing a lot, sing a lot.

I talk about doing shit, and I don't do it.

So on the six-month anniversary of the attack, anniversary is the wrong word, six-month marker, I decided to go to Israel.

Well, I went to the Nova

Music Festival Memorial, and I'm sure that'll become a memorial.

It already is.

And then I went to, well, let me start with the good stuff.

Tel Aviv, as anyone who's been there it's a cross between miami and berlin it's a wonderful city just distinctive however you feel about the situation it's a fantastic city and i would have dinner and that someone overheard that i was visiting from america and like 11 people got up and waited in line just to shake my hand and say thank you for coming they're just so grateful that you're visiting they're having trouble getting people there and

And so I had a wonderful, you know, it was very meaningful.

I went and took it, I went into the Gaza envelope.

I took a tour of Kibbutz Faraza, which is one of two kibbutz that was attacked.

That was obviously very heavy and very upsetting.

They have pictures of the kids and the people who were murdered.

So that was very heavy and very upsetting.

And then I went to,

I mean, I did weird stuff.

I went to the

crossing where the convoys of the humanitarian aid trucks are crossing.

There's a kind of a narrative that Israel

is for

for a lot of reasons or falsely in my view is that there's an impression that they're not providing humanitarian humanitarian aid.

And there's literally, I stopped and took pictures of this convoy that was over a mile long.

And to be fair, the Gulf Nations, Qatar, the UAE, and the Kingdom are supplying a lot of the materials.

But the amount of food and aid that is going into

going into Gaza right now is just staggering.

Not enough,

and obviously the Joseph.

Okay, but not enough.

But the question is, where is it going?

What happens when it gets there?

But, anyways, that's another talk show.

But it was, I'll say this without

getting too deep into the

arguments around this.

It was just very rewarding.

And, you know,

people know where I stand on the issue, but I wanted to do more than just talk about it.

I wanted to go.

So yeah, it was very, it was

very, very rewarding, but very, obviously, as you can understand, very heavy and upsetting at the same time.

And also while I was there, there's huge protests against Netanyahu.

I mean, huge protests.

Well, and,

but also I said, I said, I'm going to come back.

When should I come back?

And they said, You should absolutely come back.

I forget what they call it, but the gay pride parade there, they say, is the best time in Tel Aviv.

It's like one of the biggest gay pride parades in the world.

But it's look,

it's a very progressive, interesting,

you know, place right now.

Anyway, I was happy to go.

Yeah.

Well, we'll see it progressive.

I mean, I think, you know, it's a very complex.

And obviously, Netanyahu is unpopular.

He'd lose the election today from what i i was reading over the weekend um at the same time he's not going to call elections and um you know there remains all these vexing issues and this this uh bombing of this uh aid convoy from world central kitchen certainly has caused a lot of rancor in this country at least and and across the world um so it's it continues to be a vexing situation politically um

and and obviously from the people on the ground there.

But hopefully it will,

even Trump has moved away from total support, which is interesting.

I don't know if you noticed.

He said they have a PR problem, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, I mean, good or bad, democracies wag the dog here.

And that is the elections.

You know, Biden's softening his stance because, quite frankly, I think he's worried about Michigan.

And I think Trump sees an opportunity to.

He might just be.

Oh, Trump also, you mean, is also softening his stance.

Well, Biden's rhetoric has changed a little bit.

It sure has.

I'm of the view that the best way to end a war is to win it.

I don't think they should be calling for a ceasefire.

I think they should be calling for unconditional surrender and release of the hostages.

And

I just have a different view than a lot of people, especially young people, on this.

And we can have a civil conversation as you and I do and discuss it.

But I don't see how.

And I'll be honest with you, Kiera, I think a lot of it is optics.

I think the U.S.

has its own history with terrorists.

And even the Gulf nations who have been

eerily quiet on this,

understand

Israel's right to exist.

And I'm, you know, when Secretary of Defense Austin is speaking with the Israeli Defense Forces about them going into Rafah, I think that the people,

I think a lot of this is optics.

I think the U.S.

recognizes that this current situation is unsustainable.

If Israel took over the U.S., it'd be business as usual.

If Hamas...

Yes, I understand.

I get that.

I get that.

I'm just saying it's just, things are changing in terms of our relationship with Israel.

You and I, for all intents and purposes, don't matter.

It's the next generation, which has changed rather drastically.

And that's just true.

It's just the way it is.

And I don't think they're doing themselves any favors by same thing.

We didn't do ourselves any favors by going into Iraq.

Because it was a disproportionate response.

That's the argument.

Yeah, right.

I think so.

I think so.

Yeah.

But, well, there's a lot to get to today.

Let's not have that.

We'll have, We should have a longer debate about this and bring actual experts in.

But I definitely think just talking to

young people, I've spent a lot of time with young people, even just in Argentina, they have a point of view that has changed drastically, I think.

Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including what's next for Disney triumphing in that proxy battle and Congress unveiling a new legislation to protect online privacy.

Finally, plus, our friend of Pivot is NYU history professor and writer Ruth Ben-Giat, who will explain why Trump's dictator talks should not be taken lightly.

But first, at the time of this taping, Meta stock is up 8% in the last five days.

The jump comes after analysts raised targets for the stock, saying it has competitive advantage to gain in the digital ad market as it integrates AI.

Also in Meta's favor, a motion filed to dismiss the FTC's monopoly claims.

Beta revealed Instagram's ad revenue for 2021, $32 billion, which is more than YouTube.

Oh my God, that was such a great purchase.

The pop also caused Mark Zuckerberg to pass Elon Musk in wealth, taking over the top spot as the third richest person in the world.

Oh, Scott.

I mean, there's obviously not, he's won the wrestling match, whether he likes it or not.

I don't really care about Elon here, but

what a performance.

This is something, again, you had stressed, had not bought, but had stressed.

Yeah, each year I make a star pick.

In November of 22, my star pick for 23 was Meta, and it's up 353% since then.

This company...

I mean, first off, at some point, we're going to have to have an actual wake and some closure and a funeral for this ridiculous consensual consensus hallucination around headsets.

I mean, granted, they continue to send weight loss tips to 5, 10, 95 pound, 17 year old girls.

And

I really appreciate a business model where I get to vomit up all my inventory of all my experiences and pretend that it's poetry.

I mean, I don't like the company.

I don't like the people who run it.

It's arguably the best-run business in the world right now.

And my colleague, my former colleague at NYU, a guy named Peter Golder, a strategy guy, really brilliant, who ended up going going to the tech school at Dartmouth.

He had this fascinating insight that

I wrote about in my first book.

And then he said, the true innovators are terrible for shareholder value because they have to be so far out in front that they get mud on their face, arrows in the back.

It's the number two.

Apple's the perfect example of the second mouse coming in.

So you could argue.

Around the key issue here, Elon Musk is the innovator.

He came in and he laid off 80% of Twitter staff.

And from a consumer standpoint,

the fact that he can run this company on one-fifth the number of people, granted, it's not doing well, but the operations, it continued to go.

He's sort of with the innovator there.

Now, what Mark Zuckerberg said is, I got an idea.

Let's lay off 20% of our staff and not be assholes.

And we can hold on to the revenue.

And that has created what is arguably the biggest business trend of the last 18 months.

And that is these companies thinking, you know what?

We can have all of the great taste of reduced expenses without the calories of reduced revenues.

Yeah, and they did it right.

They did did it efficiently.

And Meta has also leveraged AI to get around the kneecapping that failed from Tim Cook.

Their targeting is more efficient now.

Instagram, which continues probably to be the best acquisition in the history of tech, is an absolute juggernaut, growing, still growing 20 plus percent a year while they cut costs.

Yeah.

You know, let me just note something.

Scott, when you recommended, you said 2022.

I recommend my meta was my stock pick of the year in November of 2022.

Okay.

October 28, 2022 was at its lowest in the past five years, $98,

$99 there.

So essentially $100,

and now it's at $527.

Amazing.

If we'd only bought, we'd be on my G650 going back to BA.

I doubt it.

So hang out with a little looster.

So where is it going to go here?

When's it going to go from here?

This isn't at stock I would get near right now because it feels expensive.

But at the same time,

there's so many green flags here.

The scrutiny around TikTok is not

as good for meta.

The growth of reels, the leveraging of AI.

I mean, everything.

But you still wouldn't buy it right now.

I feel like after a stock, I have trouble buying a stock after it's gone up four and a half fold in

the last 15 months, but I wouldn't want to short this thing.

It's just, it's, and he's finally waking up and starting to reduce the expense, and he'll start laying off people, making excuses around the mixed reality ayahuasca trip that he had, or the, the, whatever you call it, the meta.

Yeah, what do they call these things?

The Oculus?

Oculus.

Yeah, they're there.

They still have it.

It's 34 times, its PA ratio is 34.

It's still not, I mean, that's not ridiculously expensive given its growth.

There's probably, there's probably some, still some upside there, but I don't, I mean, the juice has been squeezed pretty hard here up four and a half fold.

A company this big, its stock is up four and a half fold in the last um 15 months that's just it's doing more revenue i mean instagram's doing more revenue than youtube right now i know isn't that amazing it's which is also a great business by the way Yeah, anyways,

Meta's killing it.

It's staggering.

I hope it gets broken up.

And I think parents continue to pay a huge cost for their dominance and their monopoly power here.

Yeah, Trump media is down, just so you know.

But, of course, people took millions out, just so you know.

Lots of people took millions.

I was just pointing out Trump media value declined again, continues to decline through socials shares.

But people are taking money out

of the company, just so you know.

Yeah, that's just, that's insane.

That's crazy talent.

Oh, speaking of something that I think is a little insane, actually, a group of California businesses are coming after Governor Gavin Newsom saying taxes are out of control.

This is a complaint that lots of people had about California.

The businesses have spent $16 million gathering enough signatures to put a measure on the ballot in November.

The measure would require two-thirds of voters to approve local tax increases and roll back some recent ones.

Real estate businesses are some of the biggest funders, partially in response to additional charge placed on luxury home sales that passed in Los Angeles in 2022.

Newsom and other local officials took out a full-page ad in the LA Times and San Francisco Chronicle calling out businesses like Chevron and UPS, saying the move would kill funding for basic services.

You know, California doesn't actually have the highest.

I saw a chart doesn't have the the actual highest taxes.

And actually, there's a big boom in San Francisco real estate now because of AI and a lot of companies coming back.

And it's on an upswing.

You know, I don't know what to think of this.

I think they want to just, it's actually not the highest taxes, which is surprising.

Well, okay.

The market, the market is really an incredible beast.

And New York, Hawaii, and California are three of the five highest taxes.

Now, if you had to, if you could just live anywhere in the U.S., where would three decent, I mean, the reason why these places have the highest taxes in the world is because they can.

And you know why?

For the most part, for the most part, it's worth it.

And for all the people shitposting California, who all these wealthy people in VCs, they could live anywhere and yet they decide to stay put and just continue to bitch about California.

And the thing I don't like, I mean, I don't know if you remember Howard Jarvis and Proposition 13, but he basically made it,

he made it impossible to raise taxes without a two-thirds vote.

And you ended up with really, with incredibly budget-constrained school systems.

These things end up being suicide pacts that constrict local government.

What I am a fan of is states competing.

And you have seen a lot of people move out of California to Texas.

And at some point, the lawmakers have to, in an agile way, face the issues and either

increase social services or decrease taxes.

But I've been thinking a lot about taxes, Kara.

I've been thinking a lot about taxes.

So

well, you you know, Daniel Kahneman, the behavioral economist, passed away two weeks ago.

Two weeks ago, amazing.

I'm a big fan of his.

His book,

Thinking Slow and Fast, kind of like was one of those books.

I don't read a lot, but if I like a book, I'll read it twice and try and cement it into my memory so I can sound smarter than I am.

And that was one of those books.

But he did great research looking at the effects on money and happiness.

And the reality is money is correlated to happiness.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that it tops out.

And if your objective is to be happy, then at some certain point, shouldn't we go back to the 50s and 60s where above a certain point of extreme wealth, you get taxed at 90%?

So it's just a real argument for returning to a much more progressive tax structure at the very high level.

And to be fair, I think Governor Newsom's taxes of late are mostly about what a lot of people consider onerous, but taxes on the very, very wealthy.

And this is my view.

Okay, so say taxes become ridiculously high above a crazy amount of money.

Here's the thing: getting to hold on to that money, it's not going to make any happier.

Yeah.

Well, here's what they, I asked tax burden, just people know, New York, Hawaii, Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, New Jersey, Maryland, Minnesota, Illinois.

So it's, it's, it's not, it's not California necessarily.

Um, and it's, it has high taxes.

The lowest one is Oklahoma, 7.12%.

Well, doesn't that make sense?

I mean, again, see above, see above, high tax.

It's like, okay,

a Porsche costs a lot of money, and guess what?

It's worth it.

There's also higher sales tax burdens, so it unduly hits the poor

in some of these states that have no taxes.

Regressive taxes, sales taxes, things like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, we'll see.

We'll see where it goes.

He's got a, I think he's going to have a good year in California.

Lastly, Tesla revealed RoboTaxi in early August.

Elon Musk announced, I have one word for this.

Yeah, I'll see it when I see it.

Fine.

Well, it's not going to be a product.

He's just hand-waving waving because he's so, there was a very long Wall Street Journal article about the real problems at Tesla, which we've been talking about.

We're coming for a while.

Product, competition, crazy toxic owner.

Here's where we are.

Tesla should have jumped a little bit when he talked about Robo-Taxi, but this is just

make good cars, Elon, and focus on them and stop.

virtue signaling all over Twitter.

That's really pretty much what I would say.

I don't know.

Any thoughts?

I agree with you.

It's a press release.

We have autonomous cars.

What's the innovation here?

I don't

Waymo in San Francisco.

Yes, you know.

Is he claiming it's going to be a better car?

Right now, this is about regulatory approval.

I'm already nervous enough in one that has much more sensors.

He needs to create a series of distractions because over the last decade, people have noticed that the EV

umbrella creates disproportionate unearned market capitalization.

And so the biggest manufacturers in the world, specifically automobile companies, have said, okay, we're going to go hard into EVs.

And there was a lag.

And similar to Netflix through the aughts, he had in the teens, he had basically open field because to his credit, he started early.

But now you have BYD saying they can come up with a decent EV for $10,000.

In addition, you have seen an absolute crash.

in the value, the residual value of used Teslas.

And so people are scared to buy a new one.

They massively missed here.

They essentially

reported 387,000 in global deliveries, and they estimated 449,000.

That's a big hit.

So this company, it's not an AI company.

It's not an energy.

All the jazz hands from all the bullshit analysts trying to pump this stock up, try and pretend it's something it's not.

It's an automobile company.

It'll start trading like an automobile company, which means its shares still have a long way to go down.

Well, it was the high was in November 2021.

That's his high point before he bought Twitter, I guess, a 407.

Now it's in the hundreds,

164.

And he keeps doing tiny little

hands.

It keeps going up and down, but it's got, it's, just make better products, Elon.

That's it.

Like, really, seriously.

People have caught up.

Just stop.

Stop with press releases and make things that people want to buy.

And by the way, your car isn't that interesting anymore considering how many great cars there are at that woods, which we talked about.

You don't have to buy a bolt like I do,

but you certainly have choices.

You just lost all credibility.

I know, but still, you know, but I have a lot of friends who are buying them, and they're all like I was taking a look at some of the,

I was looking at the Bronco for, and I'm looking at the Rivian, the newest one.

Do you say a lesbian joke?

Don't say, oh, wait, am I thinking out loud?

I'm sorry, Bronco.

No, but I was looking at the Rivian, the smaller one.

And I have to say, there's no way I'm going to buy a Tesla because he's such a jerk, but they're not mostly because there's more choice.

I have lots of choices.

That's the thing.

Anyway, who cares?

Wave your hands all you want.

Just stop, just build better cars.

That's what I would say.

I would argue, I actually, and I hate to, I think Tesla's a great car.

I just think other, I just think the gap, the marginal difference has been closed.

A lot of people don't like the inside.

I don't like the, I never like getting in a Tesla.

I got in a lot of Teslas.

I'll tell you in Buenos Aires where I was taking a car to Uber.

Uber works really well there.

A lot of people.

On your way to tango and beef.

Tango and just more beef than tango.

Argentina is literally a case study on how bad governance can fuck up an incredible nation.

A lot of beef.

Anyway, it was delicious.

Let's get to our first big story.

Disney is looking ahead to its future after successfully fending off activist investor Nelson Pals, an all-around jerk-off guy.

I know you like him, but he's said a series of idiotic things recently.

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Have I ever said I like Nelson Peltz?

Have I ever met him?

Yeah, kind of.

No,

I like governance.

Good investment.

I like companies not wasting anything.

All right, in any case, he's said a lot of stupid things recently.

For the second time in two years, Disney announced last week that shareholders shareholders had voted to elect its entire slate of board nominees by a substantial margin following an expensive proxy battle.

What a waste of money.

Pelta's company, Trient Partners, said it was disappointed with the outcome, but proud of the impact we had in refocusing this company on value creation and good governance.

Fine, that's you get that.

And they made some money too.

I think a couple hundred million dollars.

We've been talking about this proxy battle for months.

Does he come back for another fight?

As I said, he made $300 million, a 40% return, so good for him.

So he wins when he loses.

This is a win for Bob Iger, but I'm not sure he comes out unscathed.

And of course, there's the succession plan.

He said

is the board's number one priority, and that's being treated with a sense of urgency.

They have brought some people on the board who are good at that, but his contract ends in 2026.

So

what should happen here?

What should it prioritize?

He could have another attack by an activist at some point.

He announced an expansion of its Magic Kingdom Park in Florida last week, part of a 10-year, $60 billion investments in parks, cruises, and experience.

He settled with Ron DeSantis.

He seems to have cleaned up some of the messes.

So thoughts?

Well, so again, around predictions.

In November of 23, one of my three stock picks was Disney.

It's just undervalued.

And I like Bob.

He's a good manager.

On Prof G, on the Prof G pod two weeks ago, I predicted that Nelson would not get a board seat, and it was obvious.

And the reason why is that the CEO and his proxy solicitor have more insight into what shareholders are thinking.

And very rarely does a CEO let a shareholder vote go to a vote if they're not going to win.

So,

just some personal experience here as a chance for me to flex and talk about me, which I know you're missing.

Okay.

I can't wait.

So, when I raised $600 million, bought 70% of the New York Times and said we're filing a 13D and we want four board seats.

Companies undermanaged needs to divest things, including the 70% of the Boston Red Sox, which made no fucking sense.

Anyways, Janet Robinson, the CEO at the time,

they showed up to negotiate and they offered us one board seat.

And I took my capital partner.

We kept running back and forth in the meeting.

And I said, As for all four, they're dead.

They wouldn't be negotiating unless they knew they were fucked because they know their shareholders better than we do.

And the only reason they're here is because they know they're going to lose at the annual meeting.

And so they offered, you'll love this, Garrett.

They offered two board seats as long as I was not one of them.

Of course.

They did not want me on.

They did not want me on the board.

And my capital partner said, we'll do two, but Scott has to be one of them.

But the moment, the moment if Bob

doesn't go to the annual meeting unless the incumbents know they're going to win.

And the moment

the moment it was clear there wasn't going to be a settlement, it was clear that he wasn't going to get the seat.

And

it was an overwhelming victory for the incumbents.

And it's very straightforward.

What happens here?

If the stock goes up, he's fine.

It's gone up.

Well,

it's up about 20 or 30% year to date.

So, so far, but it's still, it's still, if the stock goes down,

if the stock goes down, Bob is going to announce his succession plan earlier sooner rather than later.

And he's going to go give Nelson, if Nelson still wants it, a seat.

If the stock goes up, Nelson wins, Bob's fine, rides off into the sunset.

It's all about what the stock does the next nine months.

Right, nine months.

So your thoughts?

Where's it going to go?

Look,

I think Disney is going to be one of the consolidators as a paul opposed to the consolidatees in the streaming market which sets the multiple that's the growth business that's the future in addition they're sitting on top of this amazing business that doesn't get the credit it deserves called the parks they really are singular true you have universal for the teens you pointed that out to me i like that analogy and here's the thing netflix and google can't build these parks or they're not interested in it these are decades-long investments unbelievable experience you have to be part of if you have kids like with Moana and

then with live action Moana, frozen four, five, whatever the hell they're being.

And there's a great flywheel.

You can bet there's going to be all sorts of frozen rides, right?

So

this is the IP here is unprecedented.

They're going to have a nice niche and family around streaming.

They have the cash cow with the parks.

This is, and it's trading at a 10-year low.

They've had some misses.

I mean, Wish didn't do very well.

A couple, a couple, you know, they've still got the frozen juggernaut.

They've got Moana.

they've got a lot of stuff.

But some of the stuff doesn't do well.

Like, I know they've had a series of movies that haven't done that well, but he's got to get back to entertaining.

The thing that irritated me about Peltz was he didn't like Black Panther.

He said it was too woke.

What an amazing movie!

And it was an enormous hit.

What an idiot.

That's a distraction.

Friggin' idiot.

I know, but he's an idiot.

Just when he comes out of his mouth, I want to like.

Well, I don't know if I told you this, but

my prostatitis has been flaring up, and it's clearly DEI.

I mean, it's clearly like

it's clearly DEI.

Someone blamed DEI on.

It was something funny.

Something happened in the, oh, the earthquake in New York.

They're like, it must have been DEI.

No, that's clearly DEI.

I love that.

Anyway, but what is his biggest challenge?

I'd like to know what you think his biggest challenge is.

Look, Bob's.

Succession.

Yeah.

Okay.

So

a lot of these guys get.

Okay, so

you don't make, they call him the leader.

And here's the thing.

He's not the leader.

You can't run a company of this size and complexity when one person is in charge with leading it.

His job, his job, is to create an environment where there's great leadership across all the divisions and an atmosphere of success and innovation.

So he's about creating an environment.

And it's not easy to create an environment when, quite frankly, as nice as he is, you're seen as someone who keeps executing the people who get near the Iron Throne.

Really good CEOs in board meetings.

I love the succession, the succession strategy we do once a year with the CEO.

And you can always tell who's a good CEO.

Or one of the ways is they come in and they're really thoughtful about giving the bench playtime in the board meeting.

And then you have other CEOs who want to make it clear that there's me and everybody else.

And without me, this thing doesn't work.

That's when you know you got to start thinking about finding another CEO.

And unfortunately, some of the most famous CEOs in the world, they don't even realize it, have a habit of executing anyone who gets near the Iron Throne.

He has not done a great job instilling confidence

in fostering

and cultivating

leadership.

So, that's on a cultural level, that's number one.

But most importantly, he's going to make the right moves about the parks.

They know how to run that business in their sleep, I think.

And the key here will be moving the streaming platform Disney Plus and Hulu to profitability while maintaining growth.

Which he talks about, which he's been talking about rather confidently, I've noticed, in his utterances,

he's been talking about making it quite profitable

and doing a lot of things they wouldn't have done before.

The reason why it'll be profitable is that for the first time in the history of this company, in two years, they haven't raised their content budget, and that is Netflix, while they have also raised prices.

So Netflix is given cloud cover for a rationalization in the sector such that Disney Plus and HBO can raise their fees without raising their content budgets.

This whole market is rationalizing, which is good for Disney.

Although they've got to sort of get a little bit heftier.

And they have all the kids stuff, but Netflix is just killing it with their shows.

I have to say, all the Netflix shows right now.

It's brute force.

They just have so much.

Well, they're also kind of good.

There's a real mix.

I'm going to watch this.

I was noticing what I was watching, but I had downloaded.

And there's another one called Scoop.

It's about Prince Andrew.

It's like it hits the gentleman was kind of good, you know, although I didn't keep watching it interesting.

They have One Day, which is doing great.

They've got all kinds of, I know, they've got all kinds of things that are doing really well.

I'm just saying, I watch all of Disney because my kids do, but I don't find a lot there that I want to watch myself and I would.

But Netflix really is, they've got to sort of have something for me, Kara Swisher.

And Netflix always does.

All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break.

And when we come back, Congress makes a big move toward regulating online privacy.

And we'll speak with friend of Pivot, Ruth Ben Giott, about Donald Trump and dictators.

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Scott, we're back.

Congress appears to be closer than ever to passing national online privacy protections.

House and Senate subcommittee leaders from both sides of the aisle unveiled a proposal on Sunday, meaning they're cooperating for legislation that gives consumers the rights to control how tech companies use their personal data.

The American Privacy Rights Act would limit the types of data companies can gather, allowing users to opt out of targeted ads and permit people to sue bad actors for violating their privacy.

This would be a big thing.

One thing the bill doesn't do, prohibit companies from targeting minors with ads.

I wish that did that.

A lot of states have their own online privacy laws.

We'll see what happens at the national standard.

Of course, the tech companies will push back.

It's unclear whether it's going to get passed

because they've got a limited amount of time.

What do you think?

What do you think?

It's with Maria Cantwell as one of the pushers of it on the Senate side.

I mean, it feels better.

I think you know more about this, although I want to come back.

I do have a story about Senator Cantwell.

Oh, okay.

Well, you know, this is, look, here's the problem with a lot of the stuff they're doing is they met, I've seen a lot of criticisms of this.

I've seen a lot of positives.

You can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, right?

That we have to put a stake in the sand to add privacy laws.

It does a lot of things.

It doesn't do, I would definitely add prohibiting companies from targeting minors with ads.

We do it on television in certain ways.

And they can see ads, but like, remember, there are cartoons with cigarette companies.

They should be much more attuned to what's happening, especially because

there's such a movement going on right now about that.

So I think it's a good time to do that.

You know,

the companies will scream about innovation and hindering them.

But this is sort of the baseline, it seems to me, this privacy bill is the baseline of anything else.

And they should pass it as an act of symbolism to do so.

And I don't think it damages anything.

You know, that's, again, that's always the complaint of tech companies.

I don't think tech companies should resist this happening.

And probably

it's sprawling.

There's a lot through.

There's a lot here on it.

And so we'll see what people think and the reaction it has.

But it's big.

It's a big bill.

But opting out of data practices and targeted advertising and also

being able to sue them seems to me table stakes.

What do you think?

More importantly, back to me.

When I first moved to New York, I literally left tech, sold my house, got divorced,

moved to New York without a single friend.

I even said to my ex, who I'm still close with, I said, you can have all our friends.

I just want to change my life.

And I moved to New York and I fell into this group of really interesting people.

And one of my friends, a woman named Anne Mafe, and this other guy, Boykin Curry, all these sort of like super smart, cultured, like interesting people.

And because I was, I think, 34, 36 at the time and single, but had been married, which meant I could actually commit to something, I was the ultimate setup.

Everyone was trying to set me up.

And I had dinner with a woman.

Dating.

I had dinner with a woman I think you know or knew.

yeah rob glazer's wife ex-wife just like plunky young wow yes yeah really nice attractive like spark plug and she said i have the perfect woman for you she's smart she's good looking da da da and i said great and she said she's going to be in town um are you comfortable dating high-profile women i'm like oh what does that mean she goes well her name is uh she's running for senate and her name's uh maria camwell and first off i think senator it never happened she was an an executive in a tech executive, but his coming real networks.

And I asked some questions about her, and it ends up, and I said, and I said, there was one feature, of course, me being a thoughtful person.

She said, I said, I'm not interested.

She said, why not?

And I said, I didn't get divorced to date women who are older than me.

Oh, no.

I want younger.

Which older, like at six months?

Yeah, she's like six years older than me.

But I said, I want to date much younger women who have terrible relationships with their father.

Those are my two criteria, Kira.

Those are my two criteria.

Anyways,

I could have been a senator's husband, but I told her I also couldn't date her because I didn't want that relationship to come in between my relationship with or my relationships with Patty Stonecipher and Emily Rodokowski.

I thought they just would have been too hurt.

It just would have put a strain on those budding relationships.

Oh God, these fake relationships are so creepy, but funny on the end.

In any case, I could have been a senator's husband.

I could have been the biggest problem her staff had to to deal with

god you would have been she's terrific i would have been like who is the secretary of homelands that woman from new jersey who's said oh she would have had to be i could have been billy carter yeah or or minutian's wife remember she was like posing with dollar bills and stuff like that

she's crazy he is crazy that matches me like yeah i would have been i would have really stood i would have been the bad peanut butter to her chocolate right she's sane and attractive and nice and i would have been the staff would have there would have been people just demanding away from your dating dating life to, here's why it's important.

It would make privacy a consumer right and put people in control of their data.

That is really at the heart of it.

And, you know, we have not had a comprehensive national law on this, and we have to.

It is a signal that we care about this.

It also preserves a lot of the stuff that's been happening in states, especially California, which has been.

which has been out front of this.

There's such a patchwork of state laws.

That's one of the issues.

And to be able to sue these companies for violations is really important.

It stays away from the free speech part, and it reigns in.

You can sue them for this.

This is the kind of stuff I've been talking about.

Go to their pocketbook.

If Facebook is going to dominate digital advertising, you should have the same rights that you have to sue people.

And so that's one of the things.

And this just a comprehensive privacy bill says we care about this issue.

Now, again, the people who don't like it and think it's too thin, people who are against it saying, how dare you?

This is a baked industry right now, digital advertising.

It deserves a piece of legislation.

So we'll see

where it goes.

I don't know.

We'll see.

I don't know.

They're really busy with other important issues.

I'm going to get a call from Maria Cantwell now and say, I'm going to have a

restraining order.

Do you think she's still thinking about me?

No, I'm going to see her.

What could have happened?

What could have happened?

I used to talk to her all the time when she was at Real.

It was interesting.

She's a super.

I love her.

I think she's so good on the issues.

She tried to insert $15 minimum wage into the Recovery Act.

And of course, we can give seniors a $90 billion increase in Social Security.

Yeah, she probably doesn't get her due of the amount of stuff she does.

She's a very serious person.

She's one of our few elected representatives who just shows up and does the fucking work.

Yeah, she's a business person, too.

My favorite recent.

posing for the TikTok cameras and trying to, you know, in the mad dash for an appointment

to the Trump cabinet that will never happen is Representative Jim Jordan has sent letters to all the biggest advertisers demanding that they answer why they aren't advertising on True Social.

I mean, that's what our representatives are doing.

Why are you advertising on platforms where there's no people that fit my political values?

Anyways, a shout out to Senator Cantwell.

I think she's served the country really well.

She is.

She is.

She's a serious-minded senator, and she was a really lovely person to talk to back in the day in the early internet days.

I really enjoyed her.

Anyway, we got to get to our friend of Pivot.

Ruth Bengiat is a professor of history at NYU and author of Strongmen, Mussolini to the Present.

She also writes the substack Lucid, which focuses on abuses of power and threats to democracy.

Ruth, welcome.

Thank you.

I'm so glad to be here.

So we want to talk dictators.

I want to start with something you posted on X last week after Donald Trump shared violent imagery of Joe Biden on True Social.

You wrote, wake up people, this is an emergency.

A lot of people have concerns about that imagery.

But what was it specifically that made you sound the alarm here?

You've been doing it for a while, so I'm not so sure that's the newest thing in the world for you.

But talk about why that bothered you in particular, of the many things that could bother you around Donald Trump.

Yeah, so it's about, you know, because I feel like Donald Trump has been

waging and his GOP enablers have been waging a whole campaign to delegitimize all of our democratic institutions.

And in particular,

you know, attacking Joe Biden.

This was an image which showed Joe Biden, it was

a sticker on the back of a pickup, as though he were a hostage

kidnapped.

And if you study coups, a third of my book, Strongman, is about coups and authoritarian takeovers.

What is this showing?

It's showing an outcome of a political situation where Biden has met a bad end, where he's somehow been overthrown and ended up tied up.

And this is being,

you know, this is being depicted as something.

positive.

And so it's continuing the coup.

And it's just, it's extremely dangerous for obvious reasons.

And I feel like this is normalizing this, is allowing people.

Which is the point, right?

I mean, you called it, you said Trump's repeated elevation of dictators as models of leadership should be understood as part of a re-education strategy.

Now, one thing he does is this is not new.

He did that with CNN, if you remember him punching CNN.

This was years ago.

He did one that I wrote a column about when he was, not just,

you know, stand by and stand, whatever the heck he said.

He says it a lot.

It's not a new, fresh thing, but you're calling it a re-education strategy that's been ongoing, right?

That it hasn't stopped the coup.

And he continues to do that.

Explain why, because he says he's joking.

He says he's kidding.

this is just him, that this is his brand of humor such that it's not funny, but still.

Talk about the re-education part of it.

Yeah, it's interesting.

What he's been doing,

and this is since the fascists, Mussolini and Hitler, you've got to re-educate people to see violence in a positive way and even make it into something patriotic and even morally righteous.

And Trump has been using his rallies since 2015.

And this was part of my report for the January 6th Committee.

He's been just over and over saying, like, oh, in the good old days, we used to be able to punch, you know, protesters.

So there's that vector.

And then he's been also elevating dictators, like doesn't matter, you know, North Korea, China, whatever they are, communist, fascist,

as positive models of leadership.

Orban, he had, he recently met with Victor Orban from Hungary.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

And so Orban, what does he say?

I take seriously what he says.

And he says that, you know, Orban's so great, he's so strong because he says this is how it's going to be, and everybody just accepts it.

So he's telling us what his what he's telling Americans, his followers, that this is a positive model.

So if you take the violence as a way of moving history forward, which was January 6th, and you take the positive

the positive praise for these murderous dictators, you get a re-education strategy because he saturated the media environment for now many years over and over and over again.

It's nice to meet you, Professor.

I don't think we've met before.

So

we spent a lot of time talking about what a danger Trump is and how wrong and really

anti-American a lot of his activities, much less his rhetoric, are.

But

he was elected

by the U.S.

and he continues to poll really well, despite all of these things that are horrific to everyone on this podcast.

What is it about the atmospherics in the U.S.

that has led the populace to support this individual who we all agree does not acquit himself as we would want someone who wants to be the president?

What's happened in America?

What's changed here?

That's a great question.

And there are patterns to these things.

And the research for my book,

when there's been a perception that there's been too much social progress and certain people are losing out, it could be conservative elites who are worried about losing their privileges.

It could be people thinking there's too much gender emancipation, too much racial emancipation.

You get a kind of counterrevolution.

That's a big word.

Or you get a backlash.

And that's when somebody like a Donald Trump is appealing.

But a Donald Trump also models himself for that environment.

And the thing about these strongmen is that they're highly sensitive to, they read the marketplace and they understand

what is wanted.

And they model themselves.

They will be whatever they need to be to get to power because they have no morals.

They're just about getting control.

So

Donald Trump comes up and he was the perfect person as as the anti-Obama.

And

he was the male brute.

So he addressed the people who felt that women had too much power, same-sex marriages were taking over, all of the racial stuff.

And so

that's what he did.

And he also told these people that he loved them, that they were the forgotten.

And so there's a sense that he's not just going to represent them, he's going to protect them and take care of them.

They're daddy, a big daddy.

Big daddy.

He's big daddy, and he's remained big daddy.

And once they bond to him and they feel protected, but they're also protective of him because he's also the victim.

And Mussolini was the victim, Erdogan's the victim.

They all do this and it's highly effective, this manipulation of emotions.

Scott, you write about, you know, masculinity and emotions.

And Trump is the latest example of somebody who's extremely skilled at using this.

First off, Professor,

I think that's such an important point because

I've been thinking a lot about Roe recently, and I don't think people zero in on some of the things you're talking about to really understand.

And I would just want to double-click on it.

My ascent is you talk about them wanting to return to an era where they were more comfortable.

And I think it's more specific than that.

Just as young men have fallen further faster than any group in America, the ascent globally of women over the last 30 years is unprecedented.

They've doubled their elected positions in parliaments.

There are now more women globally enrolled in tertiary education than men.

And I think the extreme of any religion is really uncomfortable and wants these uppity women to sit down.

And

I think that's what Roe is.

I don't think it's about birth.

It's about taking power back.

Isn't it specifically about telling

very conservative sects

of religious extremists who have disproportionate power and unfortunately young men who feel shunned by women that I'm going to take power back from women?

Oh, totally.

And who better than a repeated, you know, abuser,

somebody who boasts about, you know, putting women in their place?

And this was part of his marketing strategy from the very beginning.

And that's why when the Holly, the Access Hollywood stuff came out, I knew that it would actually help him because, you know, these are the people I study.

It's been, it was horrible to write the book and be in their heads.

You know, Mussolini was a serial rapist and many others, Qaddafi as well.

So this is part of their glamour.

And until we

wean ourselves from this kind of toxic brute, you know, idea that this brute force,

this ideal of masculinity is glamorous and desirable, we're going to be susceptible to these Donald Trumps.

So, can you ask the similarities?

Can I pick up on that between Trump and some of these classic dictators?

I did not know that about Mussolini Forager book.

And also,

how they shape themselves, because I just just interviewed Tim Ryback about his book Takeover, which is the six months, you know, it was touch and go for Hitler there, whether he was going to make it.

And he certainly adapted himself.

He removed himself from crazy for enough time to convince them all the different constituencies that he needed to convince on the left and the right to finally appoint him chancellor, which gave him the opportunity to become more.

So talk a little bit of the similarities when you're talking about about these various dictators and the differences.

Are there differences also?

Yeah, the outcomes are different.

So, you know, we're not going to, whatever happens, it's not going to be a Hitlerian one-party state or a North Korean one-party state.

But the similarities are that

these people are highly sophisticated at communication.

And whatever the era they're in, they use the latest tools of communication to forge a direct and unmediated bond with their followers.

So Mussolini, you know, was he was gesticulating and he started in the age of silent cinema, used newsreels.

Now, Hitler, of course, he had the radio

and he ranted.

And the Nazis invested in like state-of-the-art audio technology so that when he had rallies, his voice would reverberate in ways that made him feel seem more godly because that's part of the personality cult.

So they all do personality cults, which it's so interesting.

The rules have not changed for a hundred years.

You have to be a man of the people so you're relatable and certainly Trump is, but you have to be the man above all other men, the man who gets away with it.

And that's the rogue glamour.

So they all use this.

And so Modi used holograms when he ran initially for office, so he could be everywhere and nowhere like a god.

Berlusconi, who owned TV networks, used satellite TV to be everywhere.

And Trump used Twitter.

So that's one thing they do.

They have these bonds that people feel they're speaking directly and only to them,

which hasn't changed for 100 years.

If you're advising the White House, how would you match this?

Because Biden's certainly not that.

Yeah, I think in general,

we can learn from autocrats

to

make more use of emotion in politics.

There's one of the things that autocrats do really well is create these tribes and these communities, and they make people feel cared for.

Now, it's bogus.

Of course, they're just really trying to manipulate them.

Trump doesn't care.

You know, at the beginning of the pandemic, I did an interview and I told, I said that Trump doesn't care if you live or die, and people got upset, but that's just how it is.

But they seem to care about people.

So, Democrats in general around the world can make more use of emotion, of joy, of hope, of love.

And Biden does this in his own quiet way, but

it'd be ideal if it's somebody who is a more charismatic, energetic vehicle for that kind of emotion.

Is there someone like that?

Is there someone like that?

I'm not sure.

I mean, I'm a big fan of Pete Budig

as a communicator.

And

he's been, he's got a restrained personality, but he's able to talk, he goes on Fox and he's liked on Fox.

He's a very, very, he's a great asset as a communicator.

And he has everything, I think, as a communicator.

And he could develop in this direction if given the space.

So talk, what about worries you the most about a Trump second term?

What worries me the most about a Trump second term is that he has been

very clear about his intent to have an American version of fascism.

Now, that's, again, that's not going to be a one-party state, but he wants to turn the U.S., you know,

the military, if he could, but certainly

law enforcement to repress large numbers of Americans, to deport, you know, millions, and he would stop at nothing to try and gain total control of the United States.

And that's what authoritarianism is.

At its very essence,

it's the executive trying to

overwhelm the other branches of government so that they can be safe and be

never prosecuted again.

Can he actually do it?

We're such a big and diverse country with so many, like you can't imagine California going along.

There's elements in every state like this, but how do you manage to do that?

I mean, Germany was a very particular smaller country.

So is Italy, so is Turkey in a way, you know, although it's much more diverse, Turkey's more diverse with Erdogan.

How do you, and certainly Modi has

done that, but has limits, has had limits in terms of what he can do.

So how do you look at that?

Is that a possibility?

I mean, we've all seen the science fiction about it.

We've all seen those apocalyptic movies where that happens.

Yeah.

I mean, to Hitler, you know, Mussolini is actually a better example or somebody like an Orban

versus Hitler, because today things often happen gradually.

But Trump is, you know, and Project 2025 is about, you know, having an accelerated transformation of government using executive orders, perhaps the Insurrection Act.

And, you know, we know there are many things that he can do.

The main thing that definitely would happen, because it happened during the first Trump administration, is

that Trump is not interested in governance.

He's interested in using public office for private benefit.

And, you know, in his first administration, he spent one out of every three days, not governing at the White House, but visiting Trump-branded properties.

And so this kind of enrichment

for you and your family and cronies, that definitely would go on.

He's already said, you know, he's boasting that he accepted money during his first presidency from the Chinese for, quote, services.

And I'm still trying to get somebody to ask him what those services were.

So the White House would be for sale.

Our intelligence would be for sale.

Perhaps it already has been, you know, keeping documents in his bathroom.

All of this lack of accountability and erasure of public versus private, that's the strongman thing.

They don't accept any erasure, any divide between public and private.

It's all theirs, and it's all theirs to sell and profit from.

Professor, my sense is is the media has a difficult time trying to figure out the approach to covering Trump.

Do you have any thoughts around where the media has

succeeded or not succeeded and

the role the media plays

trying to figure out how to cover this guy?

It's a little like Frederick Birchall in the in the New York Times reporter who sort of normalized Hitler for a long time.

Oh, yeah.

And

Mussolini actually had a column, a syndicated column, because the anti-communist Baron Hearst was his backer, that reached a thousand newspapers for eight years in the United States.

So talk about normalizing.

I think, you know, we know

the press has been, it was working with an outdated playbook,

a playbook that worked

in terms of two,

if you had two candidates and two parties

that still bought into democracy.

The problem is they've been slow to understand how to cover our situation where we're a bipartisan republic, but one of our parties no longer is in democracy.

I see the GOP as an autocratic party.

And if it were a sovereign entity, its foreign policy would be pro-autocratic, pro-Putin, pro-Orban.

That's a reality.

And they've struggled.

So that's where they still do the both sides-ism.

But it's a little more subtle because, for example, Meet the Press,

which has a bipartisan viewership.

Kristen Welker has done very well actually bringing Republican guests on and probing them.

And the audience there are Republicans who don't want to see perhaps a Republican aggressively bashed, but will listen to a careful probing of their hypocrisies, of their inconsistencies.

So it's just

you can you can think that

this more gentle approach is perhaps not appropriate for our emergency, but it depends what your aim is.

So what should they be doing?

I think that the headline writers are,

there's a lot of headlines that are unhelpful.

For example, even in the Washington Post and certainly in the New York Times.

Also the placement of important stories about Trump's corruption.

Often the New York Times will put it on page A13.

I think that if we want to prioritize saving our democracy, we have to have a different kind of placement of these big stories.

Also, to show the American public that people are being held accountable.

When January 6th,

insurgents are sentenced,

when the DOJ is doing things to restore faith in institutions, because bashing the press is a popular habit, but it's a symptom also

of this success of the right of

making people lose faith in all institutions.

Right, absolutely.

I think one of the issues is Trump and his cronies, especially Steve Bannon, flood the zone with crazy all the time.

And so you get exhausted, including January 6th.

And so you're like, oh, I'm tired of listening to it, kind of thing.

Anyway, it's a really important book.

There's a lot of really important books out these these days in this area.

Ruth Ben-Giott, her substack is called Lucid, and her book is Strongmen, Mussolini to the Present.

Light, little light reading for you.

Ruth, thank you so much.

Thank you.

I enjoyed the conversation.

Thank you, Professor.

All right, Scott, one more quick break.

That was a happy topic.

And we'll be back for wins and fails.

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Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails.

Why don't you go first?

Mine are long and you cut me off, so do you want to go first?

Cut you off?

How did I cut you?

You constantly cut me off.

You don't invest in this relationship.

Oh my God, literally, no, nobody thinks that.

Do you want to do a word count again?

So I can prove it.

Just because you go to Argentina.

Yeah.

We can do a word count so I can prove to you again.

Audience, just so you know, we do a secret word count and Scott always comes out on top, just so you know.

Just so you know.

Daddy's on top.

He likes to be in charge.

Dalin Alda publicly is a caveman in the south.

Hello.

Oh, my God.

Hello.

And as you see, I totally outspoken.

I could have been Mr.

Senator Cantwell.

All right.

My win is the three body problem.

It's on Netflix.

We were just talking about Netflix.

Whoa, it is so cool.

It's based on a, I think it's a Chinese sci-fi thing.

And there's a really weird backstory.

It's the guys who did Game of Thrones, so they know how to make a show.

And they're really talented.

And

I've interviewed them before when they did Game of Thrones.

And this show is really compelling.

It's also weird.

And the guy who funded it was a Chinese billionaire who got murdered by one of his employees.

This is separately by being poisoned.

It's like this whole story is, but the story itself is amazing.

And it's hard.

It's not easy.

You really have to pay attention um and i i'm compelled to watch it and a lot of these shows i have to say like i did watch the gentleman but i'm not compelled to watch the next one this one i can't like same thing with shogun what i think about with streaming is do i want to keep going and there's a lot of stuff i leave off and i i see my history of these things um and

shogun and this are the kind of things that move me forward they're beautifully made really interesting the cast i've never seen most of the cast there are some jonathan prices in it, who's always fantastic, but this is a cast I don't know.

And I love that.

Like, that's one of the things that's super compelling to me.

My fail is,

you know, this continued

situation around abortion.

And Trump is trying to thread the needle saying right now he's saying abortion should be left to the states, declines to endorse a national limit.

He was, he was pretending.

But I do think

we have to, this is one of the more more compelling reasons that I've been talking to a lot of women, particularly

there are

bans on all or almost most abortions in so many states, almost the entire South.

And then there's bans after 12 to 15 weeks, and then a ban blocked by the court.

There's several.

But much of this, the South

will be without abortion rights.

So the entire South, really, unless, say, Florida wins in this election where they put it into the Constitution.

But this is not how this is no way to run a country on a big issue.

We have to come to some sort of agreement.

And then I think the best chance of that is Joe Biden, obviously, not Donald Trump.

He's made a mess of it as we are.

So that to me continues to be a vexing issue, bodily autonomy.

So we'll see if this should be a much bigger issue.

I understand why immigration is.

I understand why crime is.

But to me, abortion, I think, will be the biggest issue, one of the bigger issues in the election and should be.

Go ahead, Scott.

So my win, a huge win for women's sports.

Viewership estimates for the NC2A women's tournament final between Caitlin Clark's Iowa team and unbeaten South Carolina are between $18 and $24 million.

To put that in context, The upper figure would be five times what the women's final drew just two years ago.

It would also be get this, Cara, every game from last year's World Series, all five games of the NBA Finals, all but two college football games, and even outdo one of the NFL's postseason matchups.

This is, I mean, the reality is there's been a lot of complaints about equal pay.

And I, quite frankly, always said, well, as soon as they start making as much money as men's sports, they will get as much money.

And now it's happening.

And this is this is this is a seminal moment for women's sports.

You know, basketball

pulling more than a star.

She's a wow.

Unbelievable.

So this is this is a really nice moment

for for women's sports.

Anyways, big win,

Caitlin Clark and the South Carolina team and just women's sports in general.

My fail, I had a different fail, but what you just said and what Professor Guillot said inspired me.

In Florida, as the Supreme Court has said, actually, no, right to abortion is not codified.

The governor can do this and limit it at six weeks.

So someone has put on the ballot a resolution that would, in fact, give every woman in Florida the constitutional right to have an abortion, and they need 60%.

It's polling pretty closely.

So

my newsletter, No Mercy, No Malice, I decided to do a big deep dive into Roe.

Bodily autonomy has played a big role in my life.

And so

what I...

What I came to sort of, I think, understand is that I was trying to figure out what's going on here.

What are the drivers when you have the majority of even Republicans, much less the nation, are for some level of bodily autonomy?

What's going on?

And it's like, okay, it's about life.

It's not.

The people who are most vehemently and effective around the pro-life movement are the first to want to advocate for capital punishment or force a woman to carry essentially what becomes a cancerous tumor around or put a woman's health in jeopardy.

It's not about life.

And they think, well, then Democrats go, they're not obsessed with life.

They're obsessed with birth.

That misses the mark, too, because again, it's the same group who wants to cut funding for the child tax credit.

They don't want to make it easier for young people to have children.

As a matter of fact, able-bodied people, young people between the ages of 30 and 34, in 1990, 60% of them had at least one child.

It's dropped to 27%.

So if we wanted more kids, we could absolutely do it.

We've just decided we're not obsessed with birth.

What I determined, or what all the data shows, is the following.

And this is both Professor Guillat and Fried Zakaria's new book, The Age of Revolutions.

I think it's called Reflect.

And that is

there are certain conservative wings of almost every religion that are really uncomfortable with the assent of women.

And the fastest way to quote-unquote put them back in their place is to do what we do to the IRS or the Antitrust Committee, and that is to defund them.

And when you force a woman to carry a baby to term against her will, you're basically impoverishing her and diminishing her power.

And the fact that more and more women are less reliant on the government or on men is really upsetting to some of these groups, and they want to go back.

Now, that's not the most disturbing feature, and this is my fail.

There's two stats.

The first is that the greatest source of mortality by a factor of two for women who are either pregnant or have recently given birth is homicide.

And abortion gives women the opportunity to break ties with a violent partner.

But the really, really disturbing fact here is the following.

The segment of America that provides the least support around bodily autonomy, it's not old white people.

It's Gen Z men.

Men 27 and younger are the least supportive.

of a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

And I believe it's because young men feel shunned by women and want, believe that if they take women back to the 50s and 60s, they're going to need them more.

I don't know what it is.

I don't know if it's anger.

I don't know if it's conspiracy theory.

I don't know if it's just naked misogyny.

But I was absolutely shocked and rattled by the fact that young men are the least supportive of a woman's rights to terminate a pregnancy.

And it's also the definition of stupid, because it not only hurts society, hurts the economy, it hurts them.

Because to be quite crass and blunt,

when you deny a woman, a woman's ability to plan out pregnancies and have kids when she wants to,

fellas, let me tell you, this isn't going to increase, but decrease the likelihood you ever get laid.

What do you think is going to happen to sex when women may be forced to carry a baby to term against her will?

So this is literally the definition of stupid.

Young men feel shunned by women.

Young men want more sex.

It's not that they're more religious.

It's not all of a sudden they have a new undying love for the unborn.

It's that they're angry at women.

And let me tell you, that is not a good rap.

That is not a good rap.

Anyways,

my fail here is young men who just do not understand

that bodily autonomy is key.

to their ability to someday have kids.

They're key to some someday find a woman who wants to have a relationship and wants to have sex with them that might result in a partnership.

And the fact that we are mistaking this pro-life movement for anything but the following.

And that is trying to put this group of people who have ascended faster globally than any other group.

And that is women.

And we never win taking groups back.

So anyways, my fail is Gen Z men.

What the fuck are you thinking?

What the fuck are you thinking?

Doesn't that shock you?

No, it doesn't.

No, it shocked the shit out of me.

No,

I think what Ruth was talking about, sort of Uber daddy, the man, the manly man, it's such a toxic, it's literally, I have spent my whole life trying to raise sons who are the, not the opposite of that, but not that, right?

Because I want them to feel good about being men.

I want them to feel strong.

I want them to feel, you know, their gender.

I do.

I do.

I know it sounds crazy, but I do.

But I also,

you know, one time years ago, I remember people were surprised by this.

Louis really wanted to learn how to shoot a gun and he did and i wasn't gonna deny him i he i i put him with someone who knew how to shoot guns he wanted to go hunting he did and i you know i was like i he goes do you want to go with me i'm like i don't have any interest i think it's it's grotesque in many ways but you should do what you want and he got his gun like he got his gun license in california took all the tests um he went with a friend of mine who was a also a great fisherman and hunter who also took him fishing and um and up in california on those boats where you and I I just feel I like I was the people were like how can you do that I was like he wants to try it he doesn't like it now but he did it and so I wanted them to feel their whatever they want to feel but definitely

spent a lot of time thinking about how they treat women and how they think about women.

And I have to say both of them are very good boyfriends.

They're very good.

You know what I mean?

Like they care about their partner's health and their well-being, I think.

From what I can see, I think

Alex has a new girlfriend who's wonderful who knows her own stuff.

She's a strong woman, and he's attracted to that in a good way.

And so I agree with you.

I don't know what's in their fucking heads, these men.

I honestly don't.

I think a lot of it is, I mean, one-third,

two-thirds of women under the age of 30 have a boyfriend, only one-third of men.

Women are dating older because they want someone more economically and emotionally viable.

I also do think, I don't want to be too Alan Alda here.

I do think that media has taught women to exit a relationship, that you don't need this, you deserve better, and the Carly Simon song in the background.

I don't think enough women, if you go to these sites, women all want the same guy who's over six feet tall and makes over $100,000.

And I think that online dating speedballs this unreasonable filter.

They lose that advantage pretty soon, right?

They lose that advantage.

And they all end up alone.

Yeah, they end up alone.

And they all end up alone.

But young men, but here's the thing.

Young women who are more attracted, because men will always be more attracted to younger women, not always, but most.

And then what you have is a group of 20-somethings, especially men, who resent women because they feel like they've been shunned by them on dating apps.

And I think they become very resentful.

And

I don't, it's very, it's a real shame.

And then unfortunately, men without the prospect of a romantic relationship go down to a much darker place than a woman without a prospect for a romantic relationship.

And that is women have much stronger social networks than the consequent guardrails and consequent care and love.

Whereas guys without the prospect of a romantic relationship get angry and they like, you know, stop looking for a job, stop showering, stop.

That can happen.

That's one thing we should be pressing for men is friendships.

One thing I'm really happy about the boys is they all have really good male friendships and female friendships.

I think that's something we don't push enough with men.

I spent a lot of time.

I'm thrilled Alice is in a frat.

I couldn't be more thrilled.

I was just in Israel and they have mandatory national service.

And I was at this memorial at the Nova Music Festival.

And I met all of these,

I call them kids.

I mean, they literally look like they're in high school, Kara.

And it's women compulsory for two years, men for three years.

And

all of these young men and women in uniform who carry an automatic rifle.

So they have to learn about moral ambiguity, technology, making snap decisions.

They serve serve in the agency of something bigger than themselves, and they're all together, and they're all outside, and they're all working their asses off.

They meet business partners, friends, they meet boyfriends, girlfriends, mates.

To your point, we need a big investment in trying to get a cure, cure and decrease loneliness among young people because they just don't know how to

handle it.

It's terrible for them.

Yep.

But when it becomes the last point, I'll make, I just, I'm judging the Livingston Awards.

And there's all these amazing stories.

One of them was about Afghan women, their suicide rate is going up since the Taliban took over because they live in these domestic violent relationships and they don't get choices anymore.

So it was real it was a fascinating story.

But those kind of things degrade so quickly.

So quickly, if you combine what Ruth was talking about with this trend, it's really, it creates a bad society for everybody.

everybody.

Anyway, very good topic, Scott.

What a really interesting point you're making.

I really appreciate all your words on that.

All your many words.

My many, my many, my two-to-one, never-ending words.

Never-ending.

It's not two-to-one, but it's not.

It's not two-to-one.

Anyway, we want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind.

Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

Okay, Scott, that is the show.

Are you traveling anywhere?

Are you sitting staying put?

I'm here for a couple of weeks, and I go, I'm speaking at TED in

late April, and then I'm going down to

LA for MAR, and then I'm going to Miami, then I'm going to New York.

I'm going to

craziness.

I'm here for you.

You know, I'll be in London in mid-March, May.

I don't think you're going to be there anymore.

Mid-May.

Yeah.

Maybe.

We'll go out for dinner.

Anyway, I'm also going to Austin this week to do at the LDJ.

I'm going to do it.

Library.

Yeah, I'm doing a little thing with Larry Wilmer there at the thing.

Larry Wilmer?

Yes.

Yeah.

I love that guy.

I know.

I do too.

I love Larry Wilmer.

He's funny and he's smart.

Yeah.

He asked me to come do this thing or they asked me to come do it with him we got we have a nice rapport um we it was on his show once um and then i'm not even gonna tell i'm gonna tell you thursday what i'm doing friday you're gonna die so good is it involved senator cantwell patty stunciber emily markowski no no i'm going to la to do some stuff but i'll tell you that later i'll tell you that later yeah anyway is it someone i like who you're going to start making are you going to steal another one of my male friends no these are female friends that you probably want to have friendships with anyway we'll be back on Friday with more, and I'll tell you about that right before that happens.

Scott, read us out.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Intertod engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Meal Severio.

Nishak Kurua is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/slash pod.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

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