AI Summit, U.S. v. Google, and Drew Barrymore Backlash

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Shak Galloway back in London for the first time in 10 weeks.

How's the weather?

It's spectacular here.

I mean, it's just beautiful.

Do you want to know what I've done the last couple of days?

No, tell me.

Okay.

Yesterday I was in Atlanta speaking to the good people at Chick-fil-A.

By the way, the most successful restaurant in the world right now in terms of dollars per square foot.

It's literally just,

and also I was thinking about you.

They're actually quite progressive.

I think they've got a pretty bad rap.

Do they?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't like, I don't like takeout places, but, but, okay, go ahead.

My sons love it.

My sons go there all the time and eat up the whole place.

No, I meant, I meant the management team.

It's pretty diverse, pretty progressive.

Anyways, they're literally the most

because they don't, they're not, they're private and they don't announce their earnings and the CNBC doesn't go ape shit about just this thing is just it's a phenomenon.

I was there then I got on a plane from Atlanta to London and then went and spoke to

the folks at IMG which is that monster sports

management company division of William Morris Endeavour and listened to a bunch of guys in consensual hallucination talk about how cable and ESPN was coming back.

But that was it was lovely.

It was lovely.

People that were really friendly and really nice and good.

Okay.

Talked a lot about Premier League.

Anyways, that's what I've been up to.

What have you been up to?

Scott's on a world tour.

Oh, I've been reading the Isaacson book for my interview today, which is going to happen later.

I've just been doing stuff.

With Walter?

Yeah.

Well, Cal.

Well, Cal.

I don't agree with your assessment of

my stride.

We're going to have a nice election.

We're going to count the votes.

That guy literally looks like Ronald Reagan and James Carvell mated.

If James Carvelle and Ronald Reagan had a baby, it would look like,

it would look and sound like Walter Isaacson.

No, all right.

Okay.

um just you know the chick-fil-a controversy was that its ceo uh directed a lot of money going charitable donations to anti-lgbtq organizations and then in 2019 a couple years ago they they made major changes to its charitable foundation and they ended the don't donations that it's the ceo dan kathy the founder made some homophobic comments that he justifiably got real strong pushback but what's interesting is that it's been like a poltergeist haunting them for the better part 11 or 12 years.

And if you go down there,

granted, really nice to meet someone biased, but if you go down there and you meet the management team and you just kind of get a feel for them, they're more progressive than a lot of companies.

Yeah, it's complicated, but that CEO definitely had some issues, as they say.

And that said, you know, my sons knew about this many years ago, and they kept going, mom, I'm all for gay and lesbian rights, but the chicken is delicious.

Sorry.

Sorry, mom.

They said, we have tried them all and they would eat it.

and i said okay you make your choices sons um they also loved in and out who had a little bit of a controversy around some biblical things and the prayer on the psalms or whatever it is yeah yeah everybody should do how deal with these things the way they want to um instead of getting all exercise don't i don't i don't happen to like fast food that much um i like a mcdonald's hamburger every now and then a cheeseburger um but that's about it i don't not very often anyway we have a lot to talk about what have i been doing i don't know i'm headed to a wedding this weekend my uh friends from sixth grade are getting married, the second marriages, and I'm very excited to go to their wedding.

It's very nice.

It's in Princeton where I grew up.

Yeah, it's nice.

And then I'm going to another wedding the next weekend with two lovely young lesbians who are going to run the world someday, and they're amazing.

So we're doing that.

So a lot of weddings.

Well, you know what they say about second marriages?

It's a triumph of hope over experience.

No, they're great people.

They're going to be very happy.

They've known each other their whole lives.

And so I'm very excited for that.

It's going to be fun.

And I wish them all well, all both couples very well.

You know the difference between a first wife and a second wife.

Oh my God.

The second wife has real orgasms and fake jewelry.

Oh, sorry.

Sorry.

Anyways,

I knew you couldn't.

You couldn't get it.

You couldn't pull out, could you?

I'm not even going to touch that one.

All right, okay, don't, don't.

Try not to touch anything, Scott.

That's my philosophy for you in general, if we want to keep the show going.

We have a lot to talk about.

Big tech's big gathering on Capitol Hill, obviously, speaking of not touching, Google's landmark antitrust tile and a new job in journalism that Scott would be perfect for, which we will get to first.

Scott, I predict this may be your last episode of Pivot USA Today.

And apparently, the Tennessean is looking to fill positions for a Taylor Swift reporter and one for a Beyoncé reporter.

The two roles will be focused on capturing the musical, cultural, and economic impact of the two icons.

Wow.

I mean, Scott, this is your opportunity.

How far are you along in the interview process?

Be honest with me.

Well, I got through the interview process, but similar to my first wife, they claimed I had revenge issues, to which I responded, we'll see about that.

That's good.

It's not good.

That wasn't good at all.

What, what, no, that wasn't good.

But what do you think about this?

I mean, that's interesting.

They are economic powerhouses

too.

Juggernauts.

I would add Barbie in there too.

But what do you think about having a Taylor Swift reporter?

You know more.

I mean, you're going to forget more about journalism than I'm going to know.

What do you think?

It's a little specific.

You know, I think you should,

I think probably,

if you're in Nashville, I guess, but she's sort of such a, she won everything at the VMAs and was totally elegant in doing so.

She really is one of these central figures right now.

That's not going to last, presumably.

There'll be other artists and everything like that.

I think to have a major artists reporter, sure, right?

And who are, yes, I see that.

And of course, right now you would focus on her and beyonce but i don't know it seems i mean you know it's not a fan one it's not to say what who she's dating or things like that it's about well yeah it kind of is cultural and economic impact yeah so when i first read this to be honest i thought it was a head fake just trying to get a press release for usa today

although i did i did get a scoop about supposedly her 45 ex-boyfriends are collaborating on an album do you know the title of the album no what is it look what you made me do.

Maybe it's about you.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Oh, God.

You know, you're pushing against the tide with

hating on Taylor.

I can see a reporter about, it's like a cultural or, I don't know, we call a lifestyle reporter, but devoting a reporter to one artist.

I don't know.

Doesn't it kind of signal the downfall?

That's like, isn't that ringing the bell at the top of the face?

I think they'll do well with it.

People can love Taylor Swift and Beyoncé content, and they have huge fan bases.

I think fan economy economy is more an interesting.

I think that would be a real, like, how does the fan economy work and how the marketing, that could, you could yield a million stories about really interesting and go everywhere, you know, not just influencers, but all kinds of places, because I think the fan economy deserves it.

In any case, the Apple event sort of came and went.

What did you think of that, Kara?

I just watched their, did you watch their Mother Nature video they did?

Oh, about how they're going to try and solve climate change?

Yes.

Yeah.

They had, what's her name?

She's a great actress.

it's octavia spencer she was playing mother nature and apple offices are already carbon neutral yeah this building is carbon neutral yeah we do with the mix of clean energy and eliminating greenhouse emissions it's kind of like if you were to you're seriously explaining carbon neutrality to mother nature right now i'm sorry you want to tell me how photosynthesis works too don't Tim Cook was in it super awkward.

A lot of the executives actually were in it, and it was all about how they'd come up to speed on their sustainability stuff And

Mother Nature came to check on them.

It was.

Did it work?

I don't know.

No, I, I, no.

I wish it did.

I don't, you know what I mean?

I see the, like, it was a good idea on paper.

So, but I don't know.

It just was, it was, it wasn't a lot.

The new phones, I think the biggest news, of course, is better cameras, of course, as always.

And the cameras are spectacular.

This USB charging and the action button, I guess.

This is the USB-C.

Everything is changing to USB-C.

Some people think they were forced by Europe, but you know, it's the direction everything's going.

Everyone should be having the same chargers instead of the lightning ones.

USB-C.

Adapters will now be available on Apple's website for $29.

This is a little dongle you're going to put on.

Following the event, Apple stock dropped 2% at time taping.

Remains down.

It's been getting pummeled.

I think people are wondering whether you're going to buy one.

I haven't rushed to buy one.

I don't quite see the point.

point.

My phone is in good shape.

There's only so many times people can go to the well here with this thing.

Although I always upgrade, but not necessarily as quickly.

I don't know.

What do you think?

This felt to me like the least exciting or buzzy new iPhone.

It was just, I couldn't, you know, a different charging port.

It felt sort of, I'll get it.

I'll get it because I want the newest one and I like to, you know,

it's something I just do when they come out with a new one.

But what's remarkable here, I mean, so you said a couple of things and there's been a lot of headlines around the stock not crashing.

Although it's been up for the year.

Let's be clear.

It's from 125 year to date to 175 and over one year.

It's like tripled in the last five.

I mean, people would pray for the stock performance.

Last month it's down.

Last six months, it's slightly down.

I would argue for the last 10 years, it's arguably the best managed company.

They have massively increased their services revenue, which is high margin.

Despite the fact that they don't sell as many phones, or this year they may pass Samsung, an iPhone user is worth something like seven to 10 times more than an Android user.

At the IMG thing, I said, well, you know, Apple could buy Disney for a 5% dilution.

I mean, one company is trading at $3 trillion, Disney's at $150 billion.

And the guy correctly said, it's actually this really interesting guy starting the British Basketball League.

They're starting a basketball league here.

He said, why would Apple want to buy Disney and take on that headache?

Why wouldn't they just continue to charge 30% if they want to download the Hulu or the Disney Disney Plus app.

But yeah, it's, it's Apple, you know, they've done

whenever anything looks like it's flattening, they do a great job of taking capital and finding other, other means of growth.

I just don't.

It's just how many times can you pull a rabbit out of a hat?

That's all.

That's the, you know, they really are quite

they're, you know, they, they have kept it going for a long time.

And, and this action button on the side is interesting.

You know, I, it's, it's always interesting.

It's, it's, you know, I just, I think I I have not rushed to

buy it yet, which is interesting.

And, and I don't know why.

I just, I, you know, putting, moving my stuff over is a pain.

I think that's one of the reasons.

I probably will.

You can customize what this action button does.

It's just making it easier and easier to use.

It replaces that ring vibrate thing.

So, yeah, okay, good.

What I would be really interested to know is that, I mean, for the first time, Apple's now getting in the crossfire of this non-shooting war, this trade war.

I'd I'd be really curious to know, because I think Tim Cook is just an enormous brain.

To what extent, what percentage of their supply chain have they diversified away from China?

Because I remember waking up three years ago.

I was on the board of Urban Outfitters because, you know, I'm quite important, Kara.

And we were talking, we woke up one day and realized that a scary percentage of our tops were made in a small radius outside of Shenzhen or wherever it was that it was closed because of COVID.

And supply chain diversification or trying to create a more heterogene supply chain for diversity has been just the call sign of supply chain officers.

And now even I think just recently Mexico surpassed China for the first time or

renewed or recaptured their

crown as the leading exporter into the United States.

But almost every board I've been on or talked to, they're all trying to figure out how to diversify their China exposure.

They definitely are exposed more than almost, except for Tesla.

Tesla and and Apple are the two companies that are most exposed in that country.

You know, I do think

they have to, they absolutely, you're at 100.

I think that's the, that's what I would focus in on rather than these sort of upgradeable products.

I mean, the same thing with the Apple Watch Series 9.

I don't think I'm going to, you know, it's, it looks the same.

It has a brighter screen.

The Series 8 is still pretty good.

Like same, it's same, it's a lot of same.

Actually, the data, I just found the data.

So 80% of Apple products are manufactured in China, but it's 19% of the revenues.

What would really hurt Apple is if they started clamping down on their operations in China.

I think actually there are more Apple employees in China than there are in the U.S.

So while on the demand side, it's obviously important.

It's one-fifth of the revenue.

It's four-fifths on the supply chain side of their products.

Well, that's what's made them so strong.

China did say that it hasn't issued any ban on Apple's iPhone, by the way, but they had security issues.

It's super confusing, just for people to understand, is that the Chinese government said that we've always been open to foreign companies and welcome to seize opportunities and share the fruits of China's economic development.

Many media reports on security incidents of the Apple's iPhone attaches great importance for information and cybersecurity.

So they're raising these security issues after this journal story about banning the iPhone.

They dropped the shares.

I mean, it's obviously they're in the middle.

We're in the middle of an issue with China.

So, and it's not one that's going away anytime soon.

It's actually in

the next century.

This is what it's going to be about.

We will not be around for the last part of that century.

But in any case, something's here now is Drew Barrymore is facing backlash after returning to work on her show during the ongoing strikes.

She posted an explanation on Instagram saying the show return is in compliance

with not discussing or promoting any struck work.

She's technically correct.

Talk shows fall under different contracts than those expired when a deal is not reached.

But the WGA East responded on social media saying the show was indeed a WGA-covered struck show itself and is returning in violation of strike rules.

Picketers are assembling outside the broadcast center where taping new episodes has begun.

Barry Moore is a member of SAG AFTRA and initially stood in solidarity, stepping down from hosting the MTV Movie Awards in May.

Of course, she's not the only one.

Your friend Bill Maher announced real-time will also be returning without writers or writing.

Maher has already caused controversy surrounding the strike, calling the demands kooky.

He was relatively calm in his explanation.

He said there's more people involved.

He won't stay calm, of course, but he, you know, he's like, more people are involved.

We're not going to do the, I guess, the beginning monologue and some of the stuff he does from the desk and some of the essay stuff.

So he's not going to do writing.

So it'll be more panels.

Stephen King immediately wrote, this is how strikes are broken.

I don't know.

What do you think?

I was supposed to go on right before the strike.

I would.

not appear on the show, I would have to say.

I would have real issues with appearing on the show.

It just seems, I get, you know, just for people's context, in the last strike, I think they went back six weeks after in the middle of the strike.

A lot of the hosts did return without writing.

So it's happened before.

So I'm not sure.

People don't like Bill Maher too.

That's an issue of it.

So what do you think?

I think this is the beginning of the end.

If you look at the strike, I think it was the UAW and UPS that got solved because both had incentives to end the strike and UPS is making money.

And if you look at, I believe the strike that the UAW is threatening, I think it's the UAW, actually, Teamsters and UPS, excuse me, but the strike that the UAW is threatening against the automobile companies, I think that'll get solved because I think their demands.

While they're asking for a lot, their demands are fairly easy to understand.

We want to make more money.

And also the automobile industry, including the domestic automobile industry, is fairly healthy.

So they have incentive.

Both sides have incentive to solve the problem.

And there's juice to squeeze, to be squeezed here.

Whereas if you look at the writers, they chose to strike in a period of absolute disruption and falling revenues from the people they were striking against.

Not all of them, but yes.

But go ahead.

Yeah.

Because Netflix was doing rather well and tech companies.

Netflix is doing well.

Tech companies separately because it doesn't, economics don't matter.

Yeah, but show me the companies they're picketing in front of and I'll show you a company whose stock is at a 10-year low and whose operating margins have been crushed.

Viacom's off 75%.

Disney's at a 10-year low.

Time Warner, Warner Brothers Discovery is, if you look at the debt, it's basically off 50%.

I mean, anyway, they just,

that's an example of a strike that was totally, was miscalculated, mishandled.

And taking too long.

I would agree.

I think this, the length of this, they had to expect that these people, because they had in previous strikes, these talk shows especially had.

And you can't just watch the anti-union shops like Greg Gutfeld grab everything.

It'll be interesting to see if this group of people that's doing this podcast of talk show hosts are going to, which one's going to fall first,

Strike Force 5.

Look, I was meeting with several producers, writers, and

they were talking amongst themselves that they're thinking about going back to work and then agreeing to comply retroactively with whatever the conditions are of a negotiated strike.

Yeah, I just want to.

You can just see the atmosphere, Scara.

People are fed up.

And here's the problem.

The people who are most powerful on the writing side are the ones that don't need um new conditions from the strike well they're they're also getting showrunners are starting to get together i know a number of showrunners in their story it's cracking that's the bottom line that's it is i mean one one wrote me it's a mess the funniest tweet though was katie delaney for every surprising drew barry more is an equal but opposite unsurprising bill maher

you know it's it is interesting that she went first it gave him cover because everyone's like oh it's bill maher being Bill Maher.

But it is.

You're right.

It's a break.

And

these showrunners are where the rubber is going to meet the road because they are starting to really feel the pressure.

The fact that they haven't, I mean, here's the tail wagging the dog.

If you didn't know there was a rider strike, would you know?

Yeah, no.

Would you know?

And if consumers don't miss you, then you have no leverage.

And these guys have no leverage.

Well, their whole point is eventually you'll know, you'll feel it.

Eventually, we're over 130 days into the strike.

And look what happened with the Steamsters and UPS.

Before they went on strike, it was settled.

And I believe,

I think you're going to see a strike with the UAW.

I don't think it's going to go very long because guess what?

Their demands are pretty clean and rational, and the people striking have leverage.

Well, we'll see.

That said, I'll be interested to see who goes on the show.

Would you?

I don't think I would.

No, I wouldn't.

I wouldn't.

Yeah, I was thinking about that.

Not that Drew Barrymore would ever call me, but if Bill Maher, I don't think I would.

And you know why?

Because I'm in a position of privilege.

And that is, I don't need the show, but there are a lot of people who need the money.

And I'll give you an example.

My first wife was this high character person with these Midwestern values.

And she got it from her parents and specifically her mother.

And her mother was a school teacher.

And her mother,

I remember the LAUSD teachers union had struck two or three times in her career.

She'd been teaching, I don't know, the seventh or the eighth grade.

Can you imagine how hard it is to teach 12 and 13 year olds?

She'd been teaching for 40 years and she

would know.

She, she like missed one day.

And when they would strike, she would just, she wouldn't go on strike.

She was like, I'm here to teach kids.

And she just refused to ever engage in not, in not showing up to work and teaching kids.

And I think that, I think you're going to see, she did it for the right reasons, but I think you're going to see a lot of these people in the union decide for a bunch of reasons that they're going back to work.

Yeah.

I don't know why I brought up Barbara Spencer.

Anyways, hope she's well.

Nice woman.

Let me say, I think Drew Barrymore is the more important figure here because she's well-liked.

And she, you know, she gave her,

people are calling her a scab all over Twitter and social media.

But I think Bill Maher, everyone's like, oh, yeah, of course, Bill Maher would do it.

He's such a pain in the ass.

See, I think it's entirely flipped.

I think Bill Maher is a

force.

His show is one of the longest-running shows.

No, but I mean, I'm talking about when people go, oh, she's doing it.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

You mean they expect it from Bill.

They don't expect it from Drew.

Right.

Yes.

They're like, of course he's going to do it.

He does controversial, contrarian things.

You know, with her, it's a little different from a perceptible.

People will be like, well, she's a nice person.

I don't, she's not really a scab.

You know what I mean?

It just, I think it has more damage than Bill Maher.

I do.

It's just so funny, the difference between perception and reality.

And that is, I've been on Marr three times and I've gotten to know.

a little bit the staff or a little bit about them.

I have never seen so many people who have been with one person for 10, 10, 20, 30 years.

Yeah, they have.

I mean, he is very loyal to his staff, and his staff is very loyal to him.

He is.

I would say that some of them are worried about his sort of rightward shift.

I've heard that from people there.

That they think he's gone red pill?

A little bit.

And they, you know, a little bit.

But, you know, it doesn't really matter.

If you like him, you like him.

If you don't, you don't.

Well, he's worried about your leftward shift.

I'm such a capitalist.

Anyway, I don't, but I wouldn't go on it, either show.

I just was like, let's just let this this thing settle.

I wish, I hope they settle.

People I know, but not on just that show, but a lot of them are really suffering.

They 100% are.

What does it mean for a large swath of people who've been out of work for 100 days, three and a quarter months, and they weren't expecting it?

Yeah,

this is how strikes are broken, as Stephen King said.

Anyway, let's get to our first big story.

Well, there wasn't a cage match, but Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and the biggest names in tech descended on the Capitol Wednesday for a special AI forum organized by Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.

They all, of course, had a sleepover at my house.

No, they didn't.

No, they didn't.

60 senators attended the closed-door meeting with topics including open source models, security, privacy.

Musk and Zuckerberg were seated at opposite ends of the table.

I mean, honestly, who cares?

Here's what Musk told reporters after the summit.

I think it was a very civilized discussion, actually, among some of the smartest people in the world.

So I thought

Senator Schumer did a great service to humanity here.

I think something good will come of this.

I think this meeting may go on history as being very important for the future of civilization.

God, he's such a drama queen.

Okay, fine.

Whatever.

It's a meeting.

I thought I want this meeting to be more than a press release.

I suppose they're a useful conversation.

I think I'm in the same camp as

of all things.

Josh Hawley and Senator Warren are all in the same camp.

I don't sure why it had to be private.

Warren said these tech billionaires want to lobby Congress behind closed doors with no questions asked.

That's just plain wrong.

Senator Marshall Blackburn, not exactly a friend of Elizabeth Warren, said in a statement, Congress has always conducted its business in the sunshine.

Today's forum should have been no different.

And Senator Josh Hawley called it a cocktail party for big tech.

You know, they all raised their hands when they said there should be regulation.

Elon said, apparently it's important for us to have a referee.

One of the contentions was open source systems that public can access.

Zuckerberg is pushing that, but some people think it's dangerous.

Zuckerberg said open source democratizes access to these tools and helps level the playing fields and foster innovation for people and businesses.

He has an argument to make.

You know, what do you think?

What do you think?

I think it was, I just, well, I disagree with the statements about Sunshine.

I think it was actually probably likely much more productive

behind closed doors because whenever it's on camera, the people looking to raise money off of YouTube clips by

doing identity politics and accusing them of being billionaires, Senator Warren or on the right, saying that they're censoring and not actually getting anything done, not actually asking questions to learn, but asking questions for a gotcha moment, hoping that it goes on YouTube and TikTok.

Yeah, and raise money.

These things are circuses.

They're entertainment.

So I think that I would imagine the conversation was just more civil and more productive out of the glare of fundraising and cameras.

And I thought Elon Musk sounded about as reasonable as he can sound there, except for the civilization thing, which I agree with you is just more catastrophizing and techno-narcissism that technology is the key to saving or destroying humanity all the time.

But I hope, but this is where I'm cynical.

I think they all understand theoretically that there needs to be regulation here, and then they deploy their army of lobbyists to make sure that the regulation doesn't get in the way of their earnings.

So I'm all for it, and I hope that they bring in incredibly, I've always thought government officials are underpaid, and the fact that they're underpaid leads them to be total whores so they can feather their bed

post their government service.

But also, we need more compensation to attract the best and brightest at a young age, especially staffers who understand AI.

And, you know, this is,

I'm hopeful.

I don't know.

I sort of, it's just, there were so many people there, 60 senators and all these people.

I don't know how public it is.

And so there's still peacocking going on in these things, right?

So I don't know.

I just feel like they've, and they also initially did not have a very very diverse, and I don't mean by people, but in terms of people who have different opinions at this thing when they brought more academics in who are more worried.

You know, I think it's fine to have an airing of, you know, airing of the grievances or whatever you want to call it.

But action is really what I'm more interested in.

Of course, you know, others, Sam Altman and Alphabet CEO Sundar Pichai, talked to reporters about AI creating positive changes in the labor market with far more great new jobs than before.

Sundar's proposals include encouraging higher use of AI in government and advancing a, quote, workforce transition agenda that benefits everyone.

But action is what I want to hear about.

Schumer, who blocked a lot of legislation around privacy, et cetera, talked about a timeline for getting laws in the books, telling reporters it can't be days or weeks, nor should it be years.

It will be a general category of months.

But Senator Blumenthal said you need to do legislation and learn at the same time.

Senator Cruz said Congress is rushing to regulated technology they don't understand.

Schumer, I'm not on board with him.

He did block a lot of the Klobuchar stuff.

Everyone blames him.

Real smart people do.

So I don't know.

I don't know.

I want some action.

Yeah, let's be hopeful, but

I feel like we keep getting our heart broken.

They just fly in and fly out.

I don't know.

I just feel like I don't care if they do it behind.

I do care if they do it behind.

I think I paid for this mic, as Ronald Reagan said.

So I would like the mic to be open, but I get the peacocking problem.

What I would like before this there's legislation,

if they're really honest about the need for regulation, I'd like them all to raise their hands and come to a gentle person's agreement that they're going to find a way to watermark AI and they're not going to use AI-generated imagery pre-the presidential election leading up to the election.

There's some legislation there.

But the legislation likely won't happen.

And I think we're about to see the mother of all AI-generated misinformation, Lollapalooza, and Q1 or Q2 of next year as Putin realizes the fastest blue line path to victory in Ukraine is to get Trump re-elected, and they'll start generating enormously damaging images and deep fakes and videos and content that's been AI tested that depositions Biden and Harris.

I think that it's going to come.

And then all the big tech firms will cash their check and come November the 5th, they'll decide that they should have taken more action and wring their hands and say, we're sorry, we need to do better in 2028.

Agreed.

I'd just like to see one piece of legislation.

Remove it from 230 protections.

If it's AI generated and you elevate it, if you algorithmically elevate AI-generated content, it no longer has the shield of 230.

Let's start there.

You don't think there should be a tech department that regulates tech, just like the FCC.

Yeah, but that's not going to happen in the next six months.

That might happen, and I do think there might be at some point a head of AI, a NATO, and an AI person.

But by the time they inform the president, by the time they go on their listening tour, you're talking about legislation maybe in two years.

We need Q1 and Q2 when the GRU, when Putin realizes it's easier to spend $7 billion than $70 billion to try and swing the American election.

And they have a lot of scientists.

They're very smart.

They're very strategic.

You're going to see just,

you want to see AI, what AI does?

We're going to know what it did after the election when all of a sudden it comes out.

By the way, it worked just fine with the shitty technology.

You know, propaganda works.

Anyway, we'll see.

Let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about Google going on trial and take a listener mail question about networking successfully.

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Scott, we're back with our second big story.

The first monopoly trial of the modern internet area is now underway, US v.

Google.

At the center of the case, did Google abuse its power and kill the competition by paying companies to be the default search engine on devices and platforms?

The government says yes, with more than 90% of the market share, Google says it dominates because their product is just better.

The trial is expected to last three months with google ceo sundar pachai and another executive expected to testify sundar will be back i wouldn't mind sundar coming over for a sleepover he can come to my house he's a nice guy you like sundar yeah he's a nice guy who would i have over i'd have sundar sam reed hoffman i guess who's your favorite tech that's an interesting question who's your who's cara switcher's favorite tech tech icon that is a good question Who would you not have a beer with because you don't drink?

Mark Cuban.

Mark.

Mark Cuban at this moment.

I really enjoy him.

I think he speaks his mind, and we disagree often, actually.

He's not really a tech guy, though.

I mean, sort of.

I like Sundar.

I like Satcha.

I have a whole chapter in my upcoming book about, like, there are people I like.

There's a number of them.

Brian Chesky, I like.

I would argue, Kara, that a lot of people's journalists feel that way.

And that's part of the reason they're CEOs.

Is that

Susan Wajicki, Sheryl Sandberg, Sundar Prachai?

I think they make.

I think they make tens of millions because they're outstanding managers, but they make billions because they're heat shields for the mendacious fox that has started those companies.

Ah, yes.

Well, yes, yes.

That's about right.

You got it right.

I'm just talking about people on a personal basis.

Anyway, it's okay to like or dislike them.

It's fine.

I think, you know, I'm with Christiane Amanpour, who just, of course, did 40 years at CNN.

She's been at CNN 40 years.

40 years.

Truthful, not neutral.

I love that.

She's fantastic.

I do.

She's great.

She's amazing.

She's

the goat.

Anyway, the trials expect to last three months.

So

what do you think about this?

What do you make of these arguments arguments by the government?

Also, Google.

Another part of Google's argument is that their competition is not just that there's search engines, but companies like Amazon, DoorDash, Expedia.

This is an argument Amazon uses, actually.

There's so much retail.

It's not just us.

What do you think?

What do you think?

And a lot of people don't like all these payment numbers coming out.

Apple certainly doesn't.

You know, this $10 billion or $20 billion, whatever they spent.

I would argue one of two things happen.

Either they find that the law,

in a court of law, that the DOJ does not have the right to break them up, which to me says they're either broken up, which I think will be the correct interpretation of the law, but if they decide they should not be broken up, I would argue we need new laws.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Well, it's a narrower case about these deals, but go ahead.

But okay, no one else can afford to pay Apple $20 billion to be the default search engine, and then no one else gets that level of data and can pull ahead of everybody and then spend $30 billion to lock up those key channels.

And let's try and bring it down to, well, what impact does this have on the world regardless of the laws or antitrust or monopoly abuse?

And let's go stakeholder by stakeholder.

First, let's talk about shareholders.

Because at the end of the day, shareholders usually decide these things.

Anytime there's a breakup of companies like this within a few years, much less 10 years, the shareholders benefit.

The baby bells or the baby bells were all worth more than the original AT ⁇ T within a decade.

When E-based month PayPal, PayPal ended up being worth exponentially more.

Shareholders win in breakups.

Let's talk about the employees.

Employees' compensation goes up because now there's more firms that have to compete to rent their human capital.

Let's talk about the Commonwealth.

I believe if YouTube and Meta were not monopolies, they would not be radicalizing young men or sending suicidal ideation images of pills, bottles, and razors because PNG would have the opportunity to advertise on platforms that aren't hurting young people.

Let's talk about

the founders.

Here's the only stakeholder that loses, the one that controls the company, because once you're worth $40 or $60 billion,

you don't care about being worth 70 or 80.

You want to sit on the iron throne.

So shareholders, the country, employees, the tax base, the number of startups, the venture capital ecosystem, innovation, every stakeholder wins in a breakup with the exception of the person who controls the company through dual-class shareholders.

The breakup, distinctive, the morality of the secret monopoly abuse, the fastest way to oxygenate our economy on the tech side would be to break up these companies.

And if you want to talk about what ails our country, it's the fact that young people are making less money and everything has gotten more expensive.

And one of the things that has gotten more expensive is the monopoly rents these firms are charging on corporations.

Thank you for my TED talk.

That's true.

Yep.

Thank you.

I think, I agree with you.

I think this is 100%.

You know, I was talking, I saw a lot of people yesterday from both sides of this case, and I've just interviewed John Cantor and others.

And, you know, the Google side, of course, is like, well, we're doing good things.

This is the la la la.

And I'm, I keep saying 91%.

I'm sorry.

I don't know.

Well, you don't have, you can have 91% and not be hurtful.

I'm like, can you?

Like, it just is, it seems like I just can't get past that number, right?

And across the globe.

And, and I don't care.

They, they can make their arguments.

There's other search companies.

There aren't.

There aren't.

They just, and they're never, they never will happen.

You know, Neva closed and they just won't happen.

There's no reason for them.

And these things do tend towards a network.

Their argument of the government's argument that these deals couldn't be made by anyone else, I think it's a pretty good one.

I don't know quite what they're going to do, unwind them, make an iPhone.

I think probably what might happen is you get the iPhone and you're like, which of these do you want to use?

And then Google will be on there like a voting thing, but it doesn't matter at this point.

It's too late.

But if you look at the history of antitrust, breakups work really well, but

almost as effective is just the scrutiny you're under once the antitrust case is underway.

Why?

So initially, the Microsoft judgment to break up the company was overturned.

Very different case, but go ahead.

I'm talking about the effects effects of antitrust when there's an order or a remedy is to break up the company.

And in the instance of Microsoft, it was overturned.

However, however, the consent decree they ultimately ended up signing stopped them from bundling and putting small search companies out of business.

Google was born.

of antitrust enforcement.

If we didn't have a proud legacy in our nation of understanding the power corrupts and going in and breaking up companies when they become too powerful, we'd all be saying, I don't know, bang it.

Google, it is cynical from the outset for Google not to recognize that antitrust is why they are as powerful as they are.

And we need to frame it from.

No, Scott, they did it because they're better.

They are better too.

By the way, they did create a great search engine.

That's the problem.

Great.

That's exactly right.

But antitrust and breakup needs to be perceived not as punishment, but as recognition.

Right.

But let me say, I don't think that's what's going to happen here.

I don't think

this has been made into a much smaller trial.

You're comparing comparing it to the Microsoft trial.

The one similarity is that it's a bench trial, which is not a jury trial.

And it's up to one person, just the Microsoft was Judge Penfield Jackson, Thomas Penfield Jackson.

This is Judge Amit

Mehda to make a ruling.

Very well-regarded judge.

By the way, I talked to both sides this last couple of days.

They both think a lot of him.

He was appointed by Barack Obama in 2014.

He's been very careful.

He's been very quiet, very thoughtful.

I think they both think he's quite a good judge.

So there's no yelling about that.

But it's one person who's going to decide this.

And the question is, how much can he, what can he actually do that really matters?

And

that's, I think, the thing most people were talking about is since it's so limited to distribution and not, there is another advertising case being investigated.

It's not a mega case.

It's not a mega case.

And that's the thing.

And

the Justice Department, Kenneth Dinser, said this case about the future of the internet.

I think think the future of the Internet was before when they had a chance to really do something.

I'm not so sure they can do anything now.

Yeah, look,

I think so many wonderful things would happen.

I think if you forced, and I don't think this case directly, it might be a remedy, but say they forced

Alphabet to spin YouTube.

I think within 90 days at the first corporate off site, the folks at an independent YouTube say, how do we grow revenues?

Let's create a text-based search company.

We're really good at this.

And then I think Google as an independent company goes, let's start another video-based search platform.

And overnight, you have two credible players in video search and text-based search, which lowers the rents on corporations and creates more jobs.

Sure, but that's not an issue here.

But it's a remedy.

Is it of this one?

No, it's not actually.

But, you know, I don't think he can force this on them.

Anyway, we'll see what happens here.

It's going to go on.

There's going to be a lot of these cases, whether it's Apple or Amazon and others.

And it's just

the wheels of justice move very slowly, and it's too late.

Okay, Okay, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question.

You've got, you've got.

I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman.

You've got mail.

This question comes from Daniel.

Hi, Kara and Scott.

Thank you for all your great work.

Your podcasts are always insightful, inspiring, and entertaining.

I'm so lucky to get to attend CODE this year, which is taking place in another week or so in California.

Working as the head of a technical department at a large public media company in Scandinavia has been a dream.

This has been a dream of mine for several years.

I expect to be outgunned at the event with my current position, but I cannot wait to get to know people from the international tech world.

Have you any advice for a 36-year-old European attending an event like this?

Keep up the great work.

Both of you have been important inspiration for me, both personally and professionally.

Kindly, Daniel.

Well, thank you for coming, Daniel.

You should have come last year, my last year.

The big show.

It was a big, it wasn't.

It was a big deal.

Everybody was there.

Yeah, they were.

The business has definitely changed since I frankly innovated it many, many decades ago.

If you don't say so yourself.

I do say so myself.

I think I did.

I think everyone copied everything we did.

but I got out of it, which is interesting.

But talk about networking advice because there is,

you know, there was a weird Wall Street Journal article saying people don't want to socialize after work, which I think is one of those trend stories I always make.

I'm like, really?

Everybody?

I just think people aren't with each other.

Talk about networking advice, especially.

You know, you can do them at a conference or at work.

It is important.

There is something important to.

gatherings.

I do 30 minutes on this in my class in brand strategy under the brand as you session I do.

And first, let let me just talk about on a very meta level.

We're mammals.

And one of the things that is really ailing our society is a total decline in third places.

And while these third places are sequestered for most people who can't afford to come to these things, I think anything that gets people together and has random encounters and you see that that person who worked, you know, I met someone who works at Meta yesterday and I spent some time with her and you just realize, you know, for the most part, these are good people.

And you meet people, I met the, I think I told you, I met the guy who's starting this UK basketball league.

It's just inspiring.

And he's, we're going to go to a football game with our kids.

It's just, it's important that we bump off of each other and smell and touch each other.

On a specific level as it relates to networking, if you think about brands and how brands are built, you could largely trifurcate it into pre-purchase branding.

Think of broadcast advertising before you engage with a customer.

Then distribution, when you go into a store and you actually want to buy the product and then post-purchase what happens after you're part of the community.

Generally speaking, the first part, pre-purchase, is overinvested because people like to think if I just write, find the right cool people wearing black and I have a great new ad campaign by a guy named Don Draper, I can take my marginal product and increase share.

That dog won't hunt.

It is overinvested.

The ROI on pre-purchase has declined dramatically.

Then Apple moved, took its $6.5 billion of pre-purchase branding, stuck it into distribution, created 550 temples to the brands.

And then the gangster evolve them, the tobacco industry, once they got, I mean, it was illegal to do pre-purchase or in-store branding, moved to database marketing and Marlborough points and then could sense whether you were trying to give up smoking and started sending you points and coupons to keep you

getting emphysema.

Anyways, in terms of your own brand and your own personal networking, what is overinvested is how much emphasis you place on in-person.

We're all obsessed with personal interactions and that's important.

But in terms of where you invest your networking, one, the really smart networkers before the conference will get a list of everyone they want to meet and they'll ping them with a note.

And they'll say, hi, I'm going to be at this conference.

I'd really love to meet.

And they do some pre-purchase investing.

And then they're there and they work hard and they try to be charming.

And then the other place people don't invest is post-purchase.

You meet somebody and you follow up.

Hey, it was great to meet you.

You know, I just got a message today.

It was great to meet you.

Do you want to catch an Arsenal game?

And I'm like, that's an easy yes.

And I'm probably going to get to know this person.

So networking, people tend to focus too much on the in-person interaction, but the real ROI is in the the pre-purchase.

Quick email.

I'm going to be at this conference.

Do you want to grab coffee?

And then the post-purchase to follow up.

I love that, Scott.

I was wondering where this was going, and then you landed it.

You landed that fucking airplane.

I was like, where is he going with the pre-purchase, post-purchase, emphysema situation?

But thank you for bringing emphysema into the conversation.

I don't know what to say.

I'm a good networker, I guess, but I think you're right.

You have to, one of the things I used to tell people, and I have showed up at a lot of events.

I i go to a lot of things or i used to much more than i do now but that's because i do i want to meet less people i i am so with you

i feel so bad i have a quick story about that i saw joanna calls at my cheers in new york at the crosby hotel we're doing a power breakfast and joanna's like scott come over here i can't wait to introduce you to all these really interesting people in london i'm like i don't want to meet anybody And the whole table is from client.

I'm like, I'm about my kids and writing.

I do not want to meet anybody.

And then I felt, and then I sat in my lunch, I met with this guy starting this super impressive event.

And the whole breakfast, Joanna, went around, the whole breakfast.

I'm like, God, that was so fucking rude.

And I had to go back and say, Joanna, I'm sorry.

I just don't.

Yeah, I know.

I'm with you.

This is what the two of us have to remember.

We're in such a position of blessings that people come up to us.

I literally don't have to approach anybody anymore.

People come up to me and say hi, and they're really friendly and nice.

And it's really important that you.

that you don't take that for granted and that you're not only really warm to people who come up to you, but occasionally, occasionally, what the hell, make an effort because it's so easy to become a bit of a snob and

just lose your mojo and lose your friendliness and lose your, and expect people to treat you as if you're famous or nice.

And I find myself, I went to this dinner last night, I walked in, everyone was sitting down at this IMG dinner and I immediately like walked out and this woman, this young woman named Henny ran after me, grabbed me, sat me down, introduced me to people.

At the end of dinner, I'm like, this is so important that there's people like you to handle spoiled jerks like me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, people don't realize you're quite shy.

You're quite shy, actually.

Yeah, but you know something?

I wasn't when I needed to make money.

Right.

When I was younger and my ability to meet people was my ability to build wealth, I found the mojo to be friendlier.

You did, but I said, as a person, people are always surprised when I say that.

I'm like, he's actually a little shyer than you.

They think you're standoffish sometimes.

I'm like, no, he's shy.

Like, don't mistake it.

I don't think it's either of those.

I just don't like people, Carol.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

Well, then, there you have it.

Perpetually dissatisfied by Walter Isaacson.

That could be a book.

People think I'm going to be so lively and entertaining and funny.

And they're like, Jesus Christ, he's so boring.

They do.

You're like a comic, you know, like Johnny Carson was not for was not funny.

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, my, my, yeah, everyone in my life's like, we wish you were that guy in the podcast.

I know, it's true.

It's true.

But oh, here, that's the way it goes.

Anyway, just I think Scott's advice is excellent.

I would say I would, I, I, I was, I'm very networky, but um, I tend to just ask a lot of questions of people, get to know them.

And you never know where you're going to meet someone super interesting.

That is one thing I always, I'm always like, oh, I didn't want to do that.

And then I find some little tidbit, something.

I went to a party last, no, two parties last night, actually, with Amanda.

And I wanted to bring her because she's, you know, she works for the Washington Post in the opinion section.

I'm like, you could meet people that could maybe write things.

You know, you don't know who you're going to, very interesting viewpoints.

And afterwards, we went to a party at the French embassy, which is the best place to go to a party ever in Washington.

I went to a party at the French Embassy.

It was for Xfinity about the Olympics coming up in Paris.

That's why they had it there.

And I ran into four or five people I was really glad to hear different little things from.

And it was.

It was interesting.

I didn't want to go.

And then I was like, oh, I'm glad I went kind of thing.

Anyway, anyway, come say hello to me, Daniel.

I will be at Code.

It takes place September 26th and 27th in California, as I said.

You can still apply to attend at voxmedia.com slash code 20.

Oh, this was a big fucking ad.

I feel so foolish.

No, it's not.

No, no, no, you're not.

No, but it's actually a good question.

No, it's not.

It's just sincere.

Does he even exist?

Or is this just a big, is this just a big marketing plug?

Yes, it's Jim Bank.

Daniel, aka Jim Bankoff.

No, I think it's no, but no, but it is interesting.

It's an interesting.

How can I network?

And what is the premier technology conference taking place this year?

No, you could, listen, let me just say, go to any of them.

The journal has one coming up.

There's a whole bunch of them coming up.

The Atlantic has one that looks interesting.

Bloomberg is constantly having them.

You go to whatever event you want.

You do not have to come to code.

You can go to whatever you want.

And like Scott, you go on Bill Maher if you really want to, but probably you won't be invited.

Anyway, Scott will, but not you, Daniel.

But anyway, thank you for your question.

If you've got a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way.

Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8-5551-PIVOT.

All right, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

I hope you're ready today.

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Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails.

Would you like to go first?

You go first.

I haven't thought about it yet.

Well, my win is Christiane Amanpour.

She's just the goat.

40 years, just still as sharp as a tech, still really doing it.

She's been everywhere,

all over the place.

I think

she has a real sense of moral outrage still, which I think is good, especially around really terrible places she's been.

And she's done some really serious on-the-ground reporting.

I think she's just a legend.

Fails?

I don't think I have one.

Let me think about it.

go, you go next.

My win is Senator Mitt Romney.

He's decided to step down at the adolescent age of 76.

I think he's a really impressive good man.

Married for 53 years.

He was a missionary in France.

And actually, I don't know if you know this.

I love Mormons.

I absolutely love Mormons.

I was raised with Mormons.

A touch homophobic and racist, but other than that, I love the Church of Latter-day Saints.

And I grew up with Mormons, and they were super into their family, super into their country, super, a lot of emphasis on success and sports and was just such a positive influence on me.

Anyways, Senator Romney, married 53 years, owes a life of public service combined with the guy was a baller professionally, Bain Capital.

I think he was the founder of Bain Capital and then decided to go into public service.

And I think he's always demonstrated, regardless of what you think of his politics, I think he's always demonstrated a decent amount of grace and

courage.

And the Republican Party just no longer recognizes him that i i would recommend people to the atlantic story a guy's been following him for two years for a book uh they're an atlantic writer and uh i have to say it's quite some it's some story of the book should be amazing i didn't want to read a mitt romney book but it looks fantastic

the guy's going in the way he came out he

whatever his name representative santos walked by him and senator romney and it's not easy to do this it's easy to talk this way behind people's back he said young man you should be ashamed of yourself.

And

he wasn't mean.

He wasn't going on TikTok and calling him names.

He said it to his face.

And I think he's had a life of service and professional success and five sons,

you know,

five decade-long marriage.

And we were talking about networking.

I grew up with a lot of Mormons.

I think mission and service.

are such fantastic training vehicles because, I mean,

what do you get when you combine a Jehovah's Witness and a Mormon?

I don't know, but I can't get this guy off my porch.

It teaches them to be really

aggressive and friendly and endure rejection.

And I think that is a gift for a young person.

I think every young person should be in a retail job where they face the public so they can endure people being rude to them and develop empathy for what it means to be serving people.

And also, I think every young person should be forced to be in some sort of sales job because what it shows you is that you can survive rejection and it gives you the mojo and the aggression you need to be successful.

And mission is kind of that.

You want to talk about rejection.

Have you ever had missionaries knock on your door?

Yes, they do not stay long.

Oh, I invite them in.

I love missionaries.

Anyways, I regaled them with stories about how I played on the church softball team and that my first kiss was with Libby Pettit, who is in the church.

That was literally as far as it went.

It's the above Mormon.

Okay.

Anyways,

but I think that

going back to networking, I think at a young age to have that sort of international experience, learn another language.

That's why I'm a big fan of national service.

So anyways,

Senator Romney, I think he's lived a life of professional success, family, God.

He's obviously a very spiritual man.

Let me just say he's dropping the bombs.

He said, why would anyone want to have lunch with J.D.

Vance?

He's going after.

He's like, I don't give a fuck.

I'm going to tell you all what I think, which I kind of like.

I like Mitt Romney unplugged.

But it's not mean-spirited.

It comes from, he's not trying to raise money.

Not a mean spirit.

It's right.

I think he believes these things.

read the piece

i think he believes them i do but let me say it's i'm i'm i'm i'm all there for it because i think he's a true he's dropping truth bombs the nation would be in such a better place if it had more republicans like senator mitt romney that ish but they are fewer and fewer that's right there's no place for him anymore fewer the the the good ones the good ones leave the terrible ones stay and also most importantly can you think of any 76 year old as good looking as mitt romney he's in great shape he's got great hair anyways i just i think it's a great role model of masculinity and service and I think he's had a,

and not only that, and this goes to my fail, inherited this incredible skill that is, has incredible dearth amongst our elected leaders.

And that is, he knows when to leave.

And that's my fail.

I did the actuarial tables on our likely

our likely nominees on the Democratic and the Republican side.

At this point, uh Joe Biden, every year, there's a six to seven percent chance he's going to die that year.

And there's a four and a half to 5.25% chance mortality rate when you're at Trump's age.

And Trump, you could probably dial up a little bit because he's obese.

But again, he looks really, at the same time, he's very robust.

What does that mean?

That means in the next six years, there's a 41%

chance that Biden's going to die.

And there's like a 37% chance that Trump's going to die, meaning, meaning that in the next six years before the next president would be elected on inauguration day in whatever it is, January of 29,

there is a two in three chance that one of them will die.

And that's who we've decided we're going to bank the nation on.

So

my win is Senator Mitt Romney, and my fail is that unlike this good senator, these individuals don't know when to leave, even when it's probably the right thing to do for the country.

All right.

All right.

There you have it.

There you have it.

I do have a fail, actually.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is flying to Silicon Valley this week to meet with Elon Musk in an effort.

Let me read this, in an effort to help ease the escalating crisis over anti-Semitism.

The meeting is the latest step in a campaign by Musk's Jewish friends and allies and executives at his social media company stave off mounting controversy.

Netanyahu has done this before when he repeated anti-Semitic tropes about Jewish financier George Soros.

And this guy comes in and helps him

get over it.

It's kind of gross.

I mean, I'm sorry.

It just is.

He just

anti-Semitism meets fascism.

It's really weird that he would do this.

Isn't Netanyahu trying to unwind the Supreme Court?

Yeah.

They're trying to broker peace.

And Joe Lonsdale, who co-founded Palantir, a friend of his, Linda Yaccarino, has gone to damage control mode.

Like, why are they keeping helping this?

Let's let it play out.

These people just come in and try to assuage the situation and bring it.

Netanyahu, what a...

They are meeting.

Their PR representatives are meeting.

This is just such bullshit.

You know what?

I've been thinking a lot about, Carrie?

Speaking of stunts,

talk about stunts.

That last paragraph you read of

Isaacson's book, which said, you know, look at his childhood and look how tough it is and kind of excusing his actions.

And I was actually thinking about you.

I was saying, okay, you know, they talk about how his father traumatized him.

Your father died when you were five, and yet you figured out a way.

I had a really bad stepfather.

I had a very unfortunate.

But for some reason, it didn't end up in anti-Semitism.

It did not.

I mean, it did not.

It's just such, it's so ridiculous.

This is one of my questions for Walter.

The different standards we set for people because they're billionaires.

I just find this.

I couldn't help it.

I went and read that last paragraph, and it felt like that.

It felt like a reheated version of that think different commercial from the 90s, from Lee Klow and Chaya Day, the crazy ones.

And I'm like, that's what we're going to start doing.

Because here's the thing.

All life, all heroes, all villains comes down to comic books.

And that is every comic book is born of childhood trauma.

But here's the decision you have.

The superheroes are born of trauma.

They're the son of orphans.

Batman, Bruce Wayne, was the son of orphans, but the villain is someone who experiences childhood trauma and turns it into hate.

But childhood trauma is no, no, I mean,

it's a reason to give people empathy, but it doesn't justify anti-Semitism or misogyny.

I agree.

I don't get it.

I don't get why everybody,

I don't.

Let me read this quote.

It's clear Twitter's drop-off in ad revenue started months ago as a result of changes the platform made to ad formats, said Sarah Livingston, a marketing analyst consultant, and has nothing to do with the ADL.

Another advertising executive who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe industry conversations said there's been a 75% drop-off in the number of people click on ads since Musk's acquisition of the company.

The person said the ADL has not been pressuring advertisers to stop spending on the platform lately.

This is such, and for Netanyahu running in and these friends trying to, this is what they spend their fucking time doing is

doing this.

Rather than fixing the actual problem, it's making sure

that he doesn't look that way.

Maybe they should make sure he doesn't talk like that.

And so I'm sorry, Linda and Joe.

Stop it.

Please stop it.

It's not, it's not,

it's so wrong.

on every aspect, but you fly in anyone you want, anyone to whitewash what is a bad situation.

And in general, this is not, it's not just an Elon thing.

It's a lot of people in tech, as I, as I reflect on it.

It's just, they never deal with the actual problem, they deal with making them look better.

I just, I don't, it's such bad parenting.

I don't know what else to do.

If my jokes become profane and inappropriate enough, will you bring in Trudeau?

And who's the prime minister of the president of New Zealand?

Yeah, I know, exactly.

And I'll give you this one quote from one of his

helpers.

He doesn't hate Jews, but he's a fighter.

And when you punch him, he's going to punch back.

Someone

with the average.

Part of who he is is an aggressive force of nature.

He doesn't understand the second order effects.

He's a 52-year-old man.

He should understand the second order.

Anyway,

just fix the problem.

Fix the problem and stop.

You know,

one of my favorite, I'll tell you my favorite person in Silicon Valley over the many years is a guy named Jim Barkstale.

He ran Netscape and he had a deal with giant toddler Mark Andreessen during those days.

And one of the things he said, he had a bunch of aphorisms.

He's from the South.

And I actually had dinner with him and Walter Isingson once.

And he said, just remember, Kara, and he used to say this to people at Netscape, to keep the main thing the main thing.

That was his big business bromo.

And I was like, exactly.

Let's keep the main thing the main thing, which was, we know what the main thing is.

So anyway, there you go.

There you go.

Jim Barksteel.

Legend.

What is Jim Barkstell up to?

Oh, you know, he's retired.

He lives down in Mississippi, I think.

He's, you know, older.

He's a wonderful man.

He was my favorite.

And what a good man.

Anyway, that's it.

That's the show.

We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot.

Scott, please read us out.

Today's show is produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griven.

Brandon McFarlane engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Meal Severio, and Gannon McMaine.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thank you for listening to Pivot from York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Happy 16th birthday, Alec.

Your birth was

the best thing that ever happened to me.

Oh, happy birthday, Alec.