Trump Indictments, Blind Side Drama, and Co-Host Don Lemon

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher, and I'm in my prime.

That's because my co-host today is journalist and anchor Don Lemon.

And Don, I had to do it.

I'm sorry.

I'm glad you are because I'm not.

I'm old.

I'm sorry.

I'm not.

You're old.

You're old.

You're not in your prime.

Creaky.

When was your prime?

When was your prime exactly?

Gosh, I don't know.

I mean, I'm joking around a little bit, but when I can, there were, you know, 10, 15 years ago and I could run 10 miles and not, you know, die.

But yeah, I mean, look, I think it's individual.

Obviously, we're joking around, but I think it's individual.

I think people get to decide when they're in their prime.

Yes, I agree.

We're in the prime all the time.

I've been in my prime since I was born.

Anyway,

I want to talk a little bit about, this is the first time you've talked since you left Santa, and I think you talked a little bit.

And it's been out four months that you on Twitter actually said you've been let go from CNN.

First of all, what have you been up to?

What have you been doing?

I've been going around traveling a lot, actually.

I've been doing a lot of traveling, spending time with my family, my fiancé and my dogs.

I've been to Baton Rouge, where my family lives.

I've gone to New Orleans.

I've gone to Park City and I've gone to Italy, spent some time in Europe, and I've been talking to a lot of people.

People approach me all the time and talk to me about issues.

But you know what?

Guess what they don't really talk about?

What don't they talk about?

They don't talk about indictments.

Very rarely do people talk to me about Donald Trump and indictments.

They talk to me about issues that are

pertinent to them in their everyday lives, like beating their families and crime and that sort of thing.

So have you learned something?

Because a lot of your shows, you did focus a lot at CNN on those kind of things.

What has it taught you?

That we all live in bubbles.

You think that, you know, we would sit, I would sit on that anchor desk every evening and then for a small portion in the mornings,

a small amount of my time, the last part of my career at CNN.

And you think every single person is paying attention and

they're as up to date as we are about the news and about the issues and they're following every single development and micro

development with Donald Trump and politics.

And they're not.

And so very, as I said, very rarely do people talk to me about Donald Trump and about indictments, even with the latest indictments that are happening now.

They do talk to me about, honestly, crime, homelessness, mental health,

being, they're worried about walking down the street in certain parts of the country, in certain cities.

And that's what, you know, they want to be able to afford their families, how high rents are, how mortgage rates, and that's what they talk to me about.

And they say they miss me on CNN.

Yeah.

So they, but but you did spend a lot of time talking about Trump.

Do you think, rethink that?

Do you rethink why you did that?

Because you were one of his biggest critics, I think.

You reported on it every night, you and Chris Cuoma and many others at CNN.

And of course, right now, it's all Donald Trump all the time on that network and a lot of cable networks, not just there.

Well, I think it was a moment then.

There was a Trump moment, there was a COVID moment, but I think that people are over it when it comes to Donald Trump.

I think they understand

that he is, at the very least, unethical and possibly, you know, a criminal.

And so I think people get it and they've moved on with their lives, essentially.

If there is some big breaking news like the developments that happen, I think people tune in for a moment.

But what I think that people have realized now is that they can be informed about especially issues that come to Donald Trump, but they don't have to be inundated.

You know, and what I've done, I mean,

I have watched very minimal cable news over the past four months.

Okay.

You have.

Has that been good for you?

Have you been?

It's been the best.

I think the experience that I've had just traveling around the country talking to people, I think it's been, it was an invaluable lesson and a lesson that I would not have gotten unless, you know, this happened to me at CNN.

I was at a wedding in New Orleans.

A bunch of my, you know, my fiancé's former colleague, a lot of conservative, you know, kind of bro guys, right?

The Joe Rogan types.

Everyone, and also in Park City, and people were shocked at how all of these guys wanted to talk to me.

They wanted to have selfies.

They wanted to engage.

And they said, man, we never saw the side of you on CNN.

You know, why not?

I wish you, I wish I wanted, you should go on Joe Rogan.

You should do this because I think it's, you know, it's important.

I would listen to you.

And so that's been a very valuable lesson for me.

Let's talk a little bit about what happened.

You know, there were so many reports flying around when you departed.

You know, I called you and said, I think you're in trouble before it happened,

largely because it started to

things started to bubble up.

And you had the Nikki Haley comment that you made about prime, which I just joked about.

She says, people, you know, politicians or something are not in their prime.

Nikki Haley isn't in her prime.

Sorry.

A woman is considered to be in her prime in her 20s and 30s and maybe 40s what do you talk wait that's not according to me prime for what it depends and it's just like prime if you look it up it'll if you look if you google when is a woman in her prime it'll say 20s 30s and 40s if you want to address that you can but first i'd love you to um

what happened from your perspective and since then chris licht who called you a lightning rod at the time was out uh which must I don't know if it had shodden fraud for you, but talk a little bit about what happened from your perspective.

Well, I'll tell you what I've come to know now that I didn't know at the time, that

more so than anything, that the

CNN's, the strategy and their content and what they, the direction they wanted to go in, that I was not a part of that, that they did not want me to be a part of that.

And I think that has

from what has played out publicly as it relates to CNN, as it relates to management and

what they're doing now, I think it's obvious that

they didn't didn't want me to be a part of that.

And I think that's a real issue that happened.

But that changed with Licht, right?

Because they came in and he went on and on about centrist, which I thought was kind of ridiculous.

You just do what you do, right?

Or you make the changes and you don't talk about it.

Do you think you don't fit into the new Sanhedrin or that they have made the changes?

Because it's not unlike, it's not that different from when you were there in terms of reporting and other things.

Well, I don't know.

I haven't, again, I have not watched since I've been there, but I know when I was there,

I was not a part of their strategy.

And as you just said, they wanted to be centrist and they wanted to move the network

in a certain direction,

which was

kind of a bit surprising because I think the news is the news and it's, you know, you don't choose a direction.

It just is.

Right.

It just is.

So what do you think people got wrong about you leaving?

And what happened later is the person who had really fired you, essentially,

got fired.

I think that says it all.

I mean, what more do I need to say?

You haven't talked to him, have you?

Sorry, dude.

No.

Why on earth would I do that?

I have not spoken to him.

I have not spoken to him.

No.

You haven't spoken to him.

But how do you do you think it vindicates you or do you think it

yes, I do?

Because

why?

Read the story and you speak to the people who are there.

And

I think people get what happened.

All you have to do is read the Atlantic story, read the subsequent stories that came out and,

you know, how it played out.

And

they're gone now.

So do I feel vindicated in that sense?

Yes, I do.

Do you feel like you made any mistakes?

Because you've had many, over the many years, lots of angers.

Not just you have had issues, you know, said things that didn't want.

Obviously, the Nikki Haley comments, I think it was just used as a predicate to move you along, or the Vivek Ramaswamy ones, which I watched again and thought, I'm not sure what's wrong here, particularly.

It's an argument and debate with someone who has a particular point of view.

Do you feel that, do you feel bad about saying those things?

I think probably the Nikki Haley comments.

I'm not so sure about Vivek.

Well, let me just, I mean, I think you just said it.

You've watched cable news, and especially, you know, I would sit there three hours, sometimes four hours or longer, either at night or a day.

And there are no words in it.

You're having conversations.

And anchors say things all the time that they wish, people on television say things all the time.

You have said things before, I'm sure, that you, that came out wrong, that you wished you had said in a different way.

Yeah, I don't get into trouble like you did.

I don't get into trouble, which is interesting.

Well, I hadn't gotten into trouble for making mistakes before because I would apologize for them or explain what I intended to say.

And it would be fine because I think people understood that that's the way it works in in television.

And so if you, I think what you're insinuating and what you said that there were some issues at play that I weren't aware of,

I said that in my statement, you know, that I released on Twitter after I left CNN.

And so I think we're saying the same thing.

Yeah.

Right.

And when you, when you think about the comment about Haley, you did explain it and apologize, but you did not, you weren't allowed to say it right away.

Is that correct?

If you're you're asking, so I'm going to speak the truth now.

I was never allowed to address the issue on the air.

I wish that I could have, but I was never allowed to.

Yeah.

I always kept thinking if Jeff Zucker is there, it would have been in five seconds.

You would have said, oh my God, I can't believe I'm such an asshole or something like that.

Well,

yes.

And I probably would have said it like that.

And you're speaking my language now.

The best person, the best, the best news executive that I've ever worked for in my entire 20-some years, even almost 30 years in this business was Jeff Sucker, who understood those things.

He understood that, you know, when you're, when you're in those conversations, just as in your regular conversations that you have across a dinner table or at a restaurant, you don't always say things perfectly and you're not going to say that on television.

He was very supportive of us and he wanted us to

not necessarily be provocative, but just to be ourselves.

And if we got something wrong, we apologized, we explained it and he supported us and we moved on doesn't have to be the end of the world or a big issue unless you're looking for a reason to get rid of someone yeah actually which is why i texted you i was like oh no after i saw that one story i was like oh dear oh dear this is going to be used so um you were you just mentioned zap zucker i agree with you i think he's the most most if not the most talented television executive one of them do you think he should go back i know there's rumors and he that he wanted to acquire cnn his representatives associates have denied them, but it's pretty clear CNN is on the market.

It feels like it's going on the market, or maybe

they aren't replacing Chris Lick yet.

They have a group of people you worked with for a long time, most of them.

Do you think he should buy it or who, what should happen to it?

That's a big question.

There's this whole story in the media that, you know, I don't know if you saw it, that we were, I was on vacation with Jeff and we were, you know, discussing.

Yes, none of that's true.

I mean, if you,

how I don't discuss cnn

um and i very frequently talk about it or think about it i look you you know me a little bit i look to the future um and i live in the present i look to the future i don't look back i had 17 almost 17 great years at cnn and the last part you know bit wasn't so great but you know hey it is what it is um look i'm just going to be really honest with you is there there isn't a better person alive who could run cnn and i don't know if there's anyone who could do it.

I mean, look, someone can do it.

I don't know if they'll do it well, but I think the best person to run CNN

was and would be Jeff Sucker.

Do I think he's going to go back?

No.

Do I think he's going to buy it?

You'd have to ask him.

I doubt it.

I don't talk to him about those things.

But why would he in this environment?

And considering what's happening now, I mean, why would he want to go back?

And why would he subject himself to that?

Well, there's a scenario where you could do things with it.

Just because something is waning at this point doesn't mean it has to wane.

If anyone could save CNN if it needs saving, if that's you want to put it in that context, it would be Jeff Sucker.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I know you're not watching it, but they announced a new prime lineup.

Well, all women, except for Anderson Cooper, Abby Phillip, in your old 10 p.m.

slot.

Do you have any advice for them at all?

That they needed two people to replace me?

Kidding.

I don't know what advice I would give them because I think the environment that they're working in is different than the environment that I worked in.

I was given...

Well, tell me, why is it different?

Why is it different?

Well, because I was given the freedom to be me.

And

I didn't have to suffer

with election deniers.

I didn't have to platform people who weren't deserving of the platform.

Now, listen, I don't know if that's what's going on with them, but I didn't have to deal with any of those things.

But look,

those guys are the best in the business.

And Abby is very talented.

Laura Coates is very talented.

She's done at 11.

Yeah,

they're going to do things on their own.

I don't think that they need any advice from me.

I would just, the any advice I would say is, Abby, just be the great person that you are.

And I would tell Laura just to be the smart attorney that she is and just to be themselves.

And well, there's a lot of legal stuff.

We are going to unfortunately talk about Trump because there is a lot of news in that.

We have a lot of things to talk about, actually.

But let me just say, you and I, so speaking of that, when you think about where you are, you're 17 years at CNN.

You and I chatted on my old show back in 2021 in Sway in the New York Times that in this interview where I asked where we'd find Don Lemon in 10 years.

Here's what you said.

Let's listen to it.

Okay, so here's the thing.

Don't tell anybody.

Okay, you won't.

I really love what I do.

And

I love being on in a time where I have almost complete editorial freedom.

Maybe I can have editorial freedom at nine.

I'm not sure.

But I think at 10 o'clock, I can pretty much say and do whatever I want.

And I do.

So I think you'll see me, you know, you might see me sort of in doing the same thing, but differently, maybe on my own network.

Maybe it'll be a Don Lemon subscription network.

Oh, a Don Lemon subscription.

Manifesting.

Don Lemon Plus.

Manifesting.

Don Lemon Plus.

Manifesting.

Manifesting.

Would you still do that?

Is that in play?

I'll ask the same question.

Where will we find Don Lemon in 10 years?

There are a lot of things in play.

Listen, I think that,

correct me if I'm wrong, Kara.

I was having dinner with an old friend last night who was in television, who ran a network for a long time.

And he said that

just recently,

that streaming and digital or online had surpassed linear television for the first time.

Okay.

Yes, indeed.

So if that gives you an indication to where I'm going, and I don't know if it's streaming, but it's whatever, it's going to be probably streaming and in the digital space.

It doesn't mean that I don't want to work in traditional linear television anymore, especially over the next 14 months.

I expect to have a voice.

So stay tuned for that.

But

I think I want to do something next that scares the shit out of me.

And I had a very successful career in cable news for a long time.

I got to do and and say exactly what I

wanted to.

I have and had a very important voice that most people don't get to hear

on that platform and still don't.

And I expect that to continue.

But I'm going to lean into the future of this medium and

do something that scares me.

John Lemon Plus, interesting.

So would that be like a show?

Like, would you join Chris over at News Nation, Twitter, podcast?

Or I assume you're going to join Tucker Carlson over there.

I know you too.

There was that back and forth when you left.

I think I wrote you, Mike.

Please don't.

No, it's not that.

It was, look, I think because the weird universal, the universe, the timing of firing, yes.

Yeah, of both of us at the same time.

It was like, hey, how weird was this?

I think of you together all the time.

I think about you and Tucker is joined at the hip.

You do, but no.

But Tucker and I are not friends.

And I don't know.

I don't know what's in our future.

Listen, I never say never to working with anyone.

I would like to be able to reach a bigger and different audience.

I don't want to keep preaching to the choir, and I don't want to keep preaching to a diminishing audience or speaking to a diminishing audience.

I would like to grow my audience and be able to reach more people.

As I said, I was quite frankly pleasantly surprised by...

how many people I thought would hate me, because a lot of them do.

But after engaging with them, they were very interested and wanted to hear what I had to say.

And I actually, I think I've reached some of them and changed their minds.

I just think that sometimes it's very,

you know, unidimensional

when you're on television.

It's just you have, you know, you're doing one singular thing and people only hear one thing from you.

And I think what people don't get, and especially what's happened to me over the last couple of months, is that

you don't always say things that you necessarily believe, right?

Meaning, sometimes you are, um, you have to play devil's advocate.

Sometimes you have to say, well, there are people who are out there who may believe this to be true.

What do you think about that?

And I think we get so upset by that by saying, oh my God, I can't believe that they're doing that, you know, or you're saying that.

It doesn't mean that I believe that.

Sometimes you're just being analytical or you're trying to create a conversation and then you end up, you know, chastising people or canceling them.

We have to stop that because then you don't really you have you have fake conversations then oh i agree i have a lot of people i disagree with i mean look at you and scott yeah i i would love to have a relationship on television or on a podcast or on whatever it is i choose to do like you and scott have because it's real and it no one you know there are no snowflakes in these conversations No, no, it gives people permission to disagree.

You know what I mean?

If I like, if he says something stupid, you know, and I go, I laugh at it and know it's what it's meant as.

I think it gives people permission to calm the fuck down.

Yeah, and you know, it's not him.

He's, it's you two banners.

Sometimes it is.

Sometimes he and I had a trans argument that was quite substantive.

It was interesting because we learned from each other.

And he does it with me.

He calls me the mayor of Wolkistan, but I don't think I am.

Anyway, it's an interesting question.

No, that's interesting.

I think that's great.

And we should talk about trans issues too because people actually talk to me about that more than they talk to me about indictments.

Oh, interesting.

Okay.

Well, we will talk about it.

We're going to get into issues.

Last question I have.

When you say more sides of Don Lemon, the Don Lemon contains multitudes.

Is that interviewing?

Is that singing?

Is that what?

What do you?

It's honestly, Kara, I didn't expect to go this far, but I will a little bit.

It's all of it.

I mean, you'll see me doing something that is multifaceted.

It will be more than one platform.

And if I decide to do it, but as you know, I don't have to rush back to work.

Right.

So,

you know, I'll see, but I'm going to sort of figure, it's a good time for me to figure it out.

I just don't want my voice to be lost over the next 14 months, so invite me back on as often as possible.

I shall 100%.

All right, Don, let's go on a quick break.

We come back, we'll talk about the latest Trump indictment.

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Don, we're back for our second big story.

I know you don't want to talk about Trump, but this is a big deal this week with Fonnie

Willis.

It's okay.

He's calling it a witch hunt.

I want to see the new dot.

Surprise, surprise.

After we recorded the pod earlier this week, we learned that the former President Trump had been indicted, yet again, this time in Georgia.

His new 13 counts include racketeering, making false statements, pressuring public officials to violate their oath of office.

He's accompanied by 18 of his

friends, I guess, his crew, Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, and Jenna Ellis.

If you're keeping score at home, that makes four indictments for Trump in the last five months, two federal cases, one New York criminal case, one Georgia criminal case, with a total of 91 felony counts between the four indictments.

He has until noon on August 25th to voluntarily surrender to authorities where he will have a mugshot and fingerprints.

Do you think he shows up on the 25th?

That's a question, isn't it?

Because that he, and then what do you do?

Because there are really no levers in our constitution that can prevent him from running.

You hit upon a very interesting conversation that I've been talking to people about.

Look, I think that it is good that finally Donald Trump and all of his cronies may be facing some very tough consequences, and they should.

But if people are sitting at home all day in front of cable news thinking that they're going to see Donald Trump in an orange jumpsuit, I don't really think that that's going to happen.

I think the consequences and the ramifications of putting a former president in jail, it's really tough because of who you're going to put him in with.

What do you do with the Secret Service?

What does that mean for state secrets?

How does that compromise the country?

So I think, you know, in the end, there will be some sort of deal made.

But the question is, what do you do?

What do you do with him?

Is he above the law?

In many ways, he is above the law.

And I know that's awful.

People don't want to hear it.

He will go and he'll have to face the process.

But then in the end, do you want someone?

Even if you think Donald Trump is the most terrible person on earth, he was the leader of the free world and he knows a lot.

And what position does that put his family in, his family members, if he's in jail with someone and they threaten this, you tell me this?

Or, you know, I'm just going through the motions.

Well, he's most people think he'd probably be under house arrest.

So if he's under house arrest in Mar-a-Lago, that's fine.

I think that's a good, you know, that's good if he is indeed found guilty.

And I think that is when I say to people, do you really think Donald Trump is going to jail?

And I say, I don't think it's going to happen.

Well, they say, they'll say, well, maybe they can strike a deal where he won't run for public office.

And I think that's

also a good compromise as well.

The best option, I think, quite frankly, would be for him to go to jail.

And I'm just being a realist here.

How does that happen?

Are we surprised that all of these people were doing what they were doing?

How long have we known this, Carol?

We've known this for a while.

And there was reporting.

You had it on your shows.

You know, the New York Times had it.

Washington Post had a lot of this.

Nothing is fresh and new here from a reporting perspective, which is just the detail.

it's the detail no i reported on phonie willis back in

february or mark i think february that that she was going to use the rico statue to go after donald trump and that it was a top-down issue for him that that you know he was directing or people in high positions were directing people in lower positions to do certain things and they were going to use a rico statue and that you know what happened just a couple days ago has just finally come to fruition but i i had that reporting exclusively a couple months ago yeah yeah it's something we've typically seen prosecuting members of organized crime.

That's how they, Rudy Gigliani used it to great effect, in fact, and he's now

subject to it.

It is fantastic.

It's like, well, what do you think?

That's the thing.

Are you surprised by all of this?

Do you think he'll go to jail?

No.

I do not.

I do not.

I think the technicalities of putting a former president in jail, I think he will push it right up to the line.

I agree.

He's taking a big risk, but at the same time, as I had on Chris Christie recently in an interview, and he said he's terrified of jail.

There may be a part of his lizard brain that says, I oh no, this is a big risk.

And he eventually went bankrupt, right?

He eventually does take his medicine on some level.

I think he, no one is above the law.

I do think the law needs to be flexible in this weird, weird situation of a person who's shameless.

That's that's really well.

People will get upset for hearing us say that, and that's that's the issue that we were talking about, even if you're just analytical.

Like, would honestly, considering what Donald Trump has done to me, the safety of my family, that you know,

I've dealt with death threats.

I had to go and do, you know, victim impact statements in court.

He called me all kinds of names.

You know, you know, the only thing he didn't, what was, what's the word that he's using?

Oh, the only thing that he didn't call me publicly was rigors.

But,

you know, he's using the riggers word.

Never mind.

Yeah.

Whatever.

Yeah.

But so would I like to see him in jail if he is found guilty?

Yes.

But do I think that that is going to happen?

The technicalities, as you say, I think it's very difficult for that.

But you're disappointing a lot of people by saying what you're saying.

You know that, right?

Yes.

No, I get it.

I get it.

I just, I'm not

technically speaking.

Now, I do think one way it might be different is a visual state rules would allow for a televised trial here, which he would love.

It also, as I said, might see a mugshot, which may be good and bad for Trump.

That's when people will care.

That's when the TV ratings will go sky.

That's when people will tune in to cable news or whatever it is.

If he goes to court, especially in Georgia, if there are cameras in the courtroom, because he's good television, it'll be the O.J.

of, you know, the present O.J.

Simpson trial, if that happens, if there are cameras in the courtroom.

That's a really good comparison.

And we know where that ended up, although I wouldn't say O.J.,

you know, he did get away with.

allegedly get away with murder.

And I think he, but his life did not get better after that.

I mean, I think it never got better.

Well, I don't think Donald Trump's life got better after he became president.

I never understood why people want to be president of the United States.

And if I was Donald Trump and I lived in a, you know, in a, in a, a high-rise and with

gold-plated toilets and I had my own jet, why would I subject myself to all this scrutiny?

I would just have a great life and live in the,

I think you're right.

It's going to be a television show and he's good television.

Now, speaking of television, the first Republican primary debate is happening next week in Milwaukee.

One, do you think he'd show up for it?

And two, if if you were doing it, you have done debates, correct?

I have.

I've done a number of them.

The last one was

in Detroit with the

all the Democratic candidates.

So what would you ask if Trump is there and if he isn't there?

What would I ask the other candidates?

Yes, what would you ask if he wasn't there?

My question would be the same to even if he was there or wasn't there.

I would ask them why they continue to support because many of them supported him for a long time.

And now they're just starting to say, you know, the election wasn't stolen and Donald Trump isn't right, you know, and they still hedge.

So I would ask them that question, why they continue to support someone who has, you know, been indicted four times, who has been impeached, who tried to overthrow the government, who encouraged an insurrection,

who says the nastiest things about not only them, but about their families, why they continue to support.

And

if they continue to support someone like that,

are they qualified to be the leader of the free world?

Oh, okay.

What would you ask him?

What would you ask him?

Why he thinks he's above the law?

Why all of the very best people that he put into place turned out to be the very worst people and ended up either in jail or under indictment.

I would ask him why he cares more about himself than the country.

And I would ask him why he continues to co-op the most vulnerable people in our society and why he's a racist, why he is a sexist.

Would you use that term?

Yes, I would.

Because I asked him in 2016 if he was racist, and he said he wasn't.

And I would ask him why he lied to me because, you know, as it turns out, the evidence shows that he absolutely is.

I think I was the first person on television to say that.

I opened my show one night.

He's got a lot of people.

The president of the United States is racist.

I remember.

I remember that.

That was a big deal.

But where's the lie?

But although, you know, CNN did benefit, as did other cable industries from covering him.

He's holding a major news conference this Monday at Bedminster saying, you know, proof, should the media cover it?

They have to, right?

He's the frontrunner.

The media should cover it.

I don't think they have to do it live.

I think that they can, you know, we don't cover when, you know, I'm not in cable news anymore, but you don't have to cover every single event live.

And there's a reason for the seven-second delay or you can, you know, you can get the information, look it over, and then disseminate it afterwards and add context to it, which I think is a responsible thing to do.

But I don't like giving, you know, dictators or

liars or insurrectionists or election deniers.

I don't like giving them a platform, especially not live.

And I think we learned our lesson in 2016 by running live Trump town halls when it was all lies.

And those things penetrate.

They do.

But now he's the front runner, though.

How do you avoid that?

I think about this all the time.

How do you avoid it?

Well, you can cover him.

Someone's like, don't platform him, Karen.

I'm like, how do you not talk about a man who's at 54% or whatever, the number he's at?

Well, you can talk about him, but again, you don't have to put all of his lies on in real time.

Twitter de-platformed him.

Well, now not.

Actually, they helped him.

They tried to help him avoid.

Jack Smith had to get a lot of Twitter data, which Elon Musk did that, you know, slowed it, slowed it down, slow rolling.

I think you have to talk about him.

But, you know, we have the same issue when it you know for Kanye you know do you platform him when he's you know making anti-Semitic remarks

you know it's a little bit different when you're you know the frontrunner and the former leader of the free world it's a little bit different but I think you've got to be you've got to be careful and you have to measure you have to be very careful and very measured about how you cover him cover him you don't have to you know put on every tweet or every what is it um truth social post that he that he puts out you don't have to do those things.

There's a reason for that you have standards and practices and

you take things through an editorial process.

Right.

Right.

I think that news organizations have to do that.

They've got to be responsible.

You know what I would ask Donald Trump though?

I wonder, I would ask Donald Trump, I wonder what your mother, what do you think your mother would think of you?

She seemed rather passive.

And what you're, what you're doing and what you've done.

She'd love me.

He'd answer.

What do we do then?

She'd love me, Don.

See, I always anticipate what people will say.

but say she'd love you you think she'd love the way you speak you know about um

whatchamacallit's wife you think she'd love the what you were comm what you were found guilty of for egen carroll would your mom would she love that yeah you'd have to be prepared i'll tell you that's the one because you know elon musk's mom is very supportive of all the things he says and i you know i met her recently by the way did you

yeah yeah interesting well she's supportive of him she does.

She attacked me for

being very normally critical about his COVID policies at his companies.

Yeah, it's interesting because he says it's okay to criticize him, but, you know, well, you know, my mom would probably be a little bit upset too, but my mom would also tell me the truth about myself.

That's what I do.

I told my sons, I said, you pull anything like this, it's over for you.

It's over.

My son took my daughter's mermaid this morning, one of my kids, and

that would not stand in my home this morning.

Did they see Barbie?

No, not the little ones.

The older ones did.

Two older ones did.

They loved it.

Did you see it?

You know what?

I loved it.

I loved it.

Let me tell you, I'm in Province Town right now, and it is a Barbie summer here, as it is everywhere.

The boys are wearing pink.

Everything.

Everyone's everybody.

It's a Barbie and a Ken summer.

Ken and Barbie.

And you can imagine what they're doing here with that.

They're enjoying themselves

in quite a lot of ways.

But

let me get to another few stories in that regard.

You mentioned there's two things I want to talk about one is the trans issue you know what i mean like here

let me tell you we have we took a picture of my son with some there's a lot of trans people here a lot of drag queens etc a beautiful picture and my wife didn't want me to post it because she's like i don't want us to get called groomers i don't want it linked to his thing and i thought them like why can't i post it's a wonderful picture you can't see his face it's a beautiful picture and the fact that we're thinking of it with all like talk about what people are talking to you about trans issues well there are people who are very supportive of the LGBTQ community who have some concerns about, you know, what your wife said.

And

listen,

I think people should be supportive of the LGBTQ community, but I don't expect every business to throw up a pride flag.

And I don't know if it's their business to, that they have to, that they should.

I would rather have their support and votes.

I would rather have them as an ally rather than alienate them.

And I think there are a lot of people who are supporters of the LGBTQ community and of the trans community who feel alienated by some of the things that are happening.

Whether that's fair or not, that's the reality.

I had this conversation on Sunday with family members of my fiancé who are, you know, one of them had a Bud Light.

And I said, oh, you're still drinking Bud Light.

Like jokingly, he goes, yeah, and he talked and they talked about it.

And they're like, look, I support the LGBTQ community, but there are real consequences for what happened.

Look at what happened in the world.

Speaking of which, you know, quarterly sales fell at Target for the first time in six years, due in part to the backlash.

And Bud Light lost 10% of their profits.

Yeah.

Or Bud Wise.

And as a board.

Yeah, no, they're moving back again.

They're moving back again.

Moving back again.

They'll come back.

Yeah.

They're going to fine-tune their approach to Heritage Months in terms of displays.

CEO Brian Cornell said on an earnings call that consumers view Target as their happy place.

The company will do what it can to learn, lean into that moving forward.

I'm not sure.

I don't think you can pin that 100% on what happened.

No, you you can't.

You can't.

You can't.

Yeah.

But in Bud Light's case, it led to $395 million in lost U.S.

sales.

It's kind of ridiculous.

Do you, why is this transition becoming such a big issue from your perspective?

Well, I think it's, look, it's,

how do I say this without getting, you know,

even

members of my community are upset.

The whole trans issue is sort of new to a lot of people.

Right.

And so, you know, one day it won't be.

And so people have a lot of questions about it.

You know, just as a journalist asking questions for people who may not have all the knowledge,

I would get yelled at and screamed at and

accused of being having some sort of internalized homophobia because I was asking questions for people who didn't know.

And so I think that you have to, you know, I

often felt like the African-American authority, right, being the only person

of color in prime time on a cable.

And, you know, I felt like I had to answer questions about being black in Americans.

And I had to ask questions coming out early in the media about being gay.

And sometimes you just have to do that.

And you have to understand that people don't know.

And if you can offer them some information, you do it.

And you, you know,

was it upsetting sometimes?

Did I get sick of it?

Sometimes?

Yes, I did, but that's the only way that people learn.

And so I think you have to take people, you have to meet people where they are.

And it can be frustrating.

And I think sometimes with the trans issue, people get really sensitive and they don't understand that this is a new and very difficult issue for people to understand.

It just, it just is.

I wish it wasn't that way, but it just is.

And you know what, Kara?

Quite frankly, it's a tough issue for even members of my community.

You know, they don't get the pronouns.

They don't get to the, well, are trans people gay?

Are they straight?

They're not necessarily this.

Why are they part of the community?

You've heard that.

Yes, a lot.

And so, you know,

can you,

we would like heterosexual people to be able to understand everything all the time, but they don't.

And sometimes they just have questions.

Sometimes my feeling, what I tend to do is say,

what do you care what people call themselves?

What do you, why is this an issue?

Why are you all wrapped around an axle about this?

Like, what do you care if people want to call themselves Phyllis or they?

I don't care.

It's like, it's, so it's hard for you, big deal.

Like, it's hard for you to pronounce names of certain people, too, right?

And you're just going to have to, that kind of thing.

I've had lots of discussions with people about this, and I tend to, I usually tend to be like, tell me how it affects you.

And then they, then they sort of get drawn into a better conversation than you're a fucking idiot.

I'm thinking you're a fucking idiot, but I'm not saying that.

It's a big and important issue, the trans issue.

Listen, and I am extremely supportive of the trans community.

And as you know,

right now, we, you know, we deal with trans issues probably more than any other issue within the LGBTQ community.

If you go to any event for the LGBTQ community, oh, they're under siege with law.

They're under siege.

And so I'm very supportive.

It's, I don't understand why people have such an issue with it.

I understand why they're curious about it.

I don't understand why they have such an issue with it because it's a very small part of our population.

Candidates like Ron DeSantis and others gin it up.

And now, of course, they're backing off of it because it's not working particularly.

Speaking of which, a lot of people are talking this week about the 2009 film, The Blind Side, which is supposedly based on a true story, but maybe not so much.

As a reminder, this was a movie starring Sandra Bullock, who won an Oscar for a role about Leanne Touhey, who brought homeless teenager Michael Orr into her family.

Orr, now former NFL player, is alleging that Touhey family never actually adopted him, instead put him into a conservatorship and exploited him for years.

The Touhey family is denying those claims, is making a few new claims of their own, even mentioning a shakedown for $15 million.

Michael Lewis seems to be backing, who wrote the book, The Blind Side, a very well-known journalist,

saying that nobody made money from this movie.

I think that was one of the things, whether they made money from the book and the movie.

You interviewed Leanne back in 2013 ahead of, yes, you did, of Michael playing in the Super Bowl that year.

Do you remember it or not?

I don't.

You don't.

I'll be honest with you, I don't.

I do this all the time.

I do.

I know people say, oh, you interviewed such and such.

I was trying to remember if I interviewed someone recently.

I think it was the two ladies that are involved in the Georgia case, you know, the polls.

And I said, did I interview her or did I read like a transcript of her?

And I can't remember.

I do that too.

Listen, I was on television at least two hours,

five days a week.

And guests come in and out and I don't remember.

I don't remember interviewing her, but I'm sure she's a very nice lady.

I don't remember it, though.

Do you have any thoughts on this?

I only brought it up because you did interview her.

I want to see what the, you know, what happens with the lawsuit because people allege things all the time and we have to see what happens.

I'm not saying that that's this case, but that's what a journalist does.

You wait for all the facts to come out.

And if there is any money to be made or gotten from, you know, from Michael Orr, I think Michael Orr should get that money.

Right.

And I think he was an adult at the time and he should have been allowed to make his own decisions as an 18-year-old person.

Whether he got the money or lost it or saved it or whatever, I think it should have been his own decision.

I think one of the more interesting parts of it is how he was portrayed in that movie is kind of thick and dumb and the white people teach him.

Well, it's a white savior comfortable.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, but a lot.

Now, when I saw it the other day, it's interesting when you re-watch things.

It's on TV all the time, which is interesting.

I was like uncomfortable suddenly.

You know what I mean?

Like, I guess I'm not sure.

I was uncomfortable watching that movie from the beginning.

I love Sandra Bullock.

I thought she did a good job.

I don't think she, she wanted Oscar, didn't she?

I don't think that she should give her Oscar back because she only did her job.

She's not involved in that.

There was a book, a screenplay, and she did her, you know, and then the movie, she did her job.

So I don't think, you know, props to Sandra Bullock.

I really like her.

I think she's amazing.

But

the whole movie about the white savior thing was always uncomfortable for me.

And I remember when I was writing my book in an editor, I talked about, I forget there was something that happened and there was this little white kid.

And I went back and I read it in the editor and I said, I don't want to do this because this makes this kid seem like a white savior.

And they were like, oh my God, I didn't even think about that.

All right.

You know, let's, let's work on that.

But

I went back.

You know what I did recently?

I went back and watched, I watched the Rock Hudson documentary.

I think it was on

HBO or something.

And

so it got me onto Dynasty.

And I went back and I watched Dynasty from the very beginning.

No.

And there was the whole character with Stephen, the gay son.

And

I felt differently about the series than when I watched it originally.

What did you feel?

What's the difference?

The way that the character was portrayed was terrible.

You know, he went back and forth about being gay and strayed.

You know, the dad, which was Blake Carrington, which is John Forsythe, killed the son, got off with, killed the son's boyfriend and got away with it.

And then through his entire life, he was embarrassed about his son being gay.

I was like, Jesus, what the.

Fuck, man.

This was terrible.

And this was the 80s.

I said, no wonder people didn't come out then.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you know, it was, I, I literally, I remember watching, and it was always, you know, sad, gay people.

I did not like John Forsyth's character.

I did not.

So he related more to, you know, Joan Collins.

I'll give you a new one in your free time, Don't, until you decide whether to hook up with Tucker Carlson or not.

I can't believe we're talking about dynasty.

I know, right, right.

Is go watch Three's Company.

Literally 90 rape jokes a second.

Like, you know what I mean?

Oh, and he had to, in order to live with two women and be here to be

gay.

But then when they're talking about like getting women, it's very,

like, hubba, hubba, give her a drink.

Like, you're like, what?

Like, when you watch it, you're sort of like, oh, no.

Cara, that's all I watch is old television.

And it's so terrible.

Don't watching old television.

Go watch West Wing again.

Go, that'll work.

That stands up.

I love West Wing.

All right, my last question here, and then we're going to get to predictions because we're almost done, is who would you want to interview right now?

You're a very good interviewer.

You did tons.

You don't even remember interviewing Leanne, do we?

I don't.

I'm sorry.

Okay.

Who would you want to interview right now?

Right now?

Besides you.

Yeah.

Fonnie Willis.

Oh, okay.

I would want Fonnie Willis, Alvin Bragg,

and Jack Smith.

I would like to sit down with all three of them.

Wow.

They would never do that.

You know that, Don.

No, but I would like to.

I would actually,

yeah i would interview donald trump yeah i mean but it would be the most uncomfortable interview that you have ever seen oh i bet oh my god you know where i would do it as i i've said if i interviewed him at mar-a-lago with like velvet ropes with the

let him bring his crowd in think about you would mar-a-lago in a bathroom no not in the bathroom

let's go see the bathroom sir uh i'd be i call him sir a lot and i would have it in the middle of the lobby at mar-a-lago and there would be velvet ropes around us so that people could watch.

Yeah,

I would do it with his crowd.

I would not be afraid of his crowd, as a matter of fact.

I would do it at a Trump rally.

I wouldn't care.

Yeah.

You might be a little more trouble than me in any case.

All right, Don, one more quick break, and you have to come back with a prediction, okay?

Okay.

All right.

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okay don let's hear a prediction okay

here's my prediction i predict that even with all of the indictments that Donald Trump will be the nominee because they have no other choice.

The only person who is really speaking truth right now is Chris Christie Christie, and the Republican Party

doesn't seem to want him.

Will Hurd

is a bright guy.

I'm not sure he has the support of the party and the star power, sadly,

to win a presidential election at this point.

I think it will be tough for the Republican Party to win.

I predict that Joe Biden will win the next election.

All right.

Oh, that's a good one.

Okay, Joe Biden.

Joe Biden will win again, once again.

You know, he wins by not saying anything.

Like, he just sits on the beach and he seems to go up and fall.

Yeah, that's another thing that people are talking about, but that's for another time.

Yeah, I know.

The age thing that we've discussed that many times, but nonetheless, you've discussed it on the podcast.

Yeah, think it's a big deal.

Big deal.

I do think it's a big deal.

Listen, I don't, you know, it makes me uncomfortable talking about people's age.

My mom is 80 and she's a very young

80.

I think, you know, Joe Biden has, you know, he has the stuttering thing that we talked about on top of what happens.

And his people have to like stop letting him fall down, like putting obstacles in his way or what have you.

Yeah, well, he's pretty fit.

I have to tell you, he's pretty fit.

He is pretty fit.

Listen, I think that Joe Biden is a very smart man.

I think that Joe Biden is doing a great job.

If you look at what he's doing in office, what he's accomplished, he's doing a really good job despite all the criticism that he gets.

But what I'm saying, again, I'm being analytical.

I'm not saying that I agree with this.

People are talking about his age, and that is a concern for people I

meet.

Now, if you speak to someone like my mother, who is a die-hard Joe Biden fan, she'll say, I like, I don't care.

I like that he, you know, he's old enough, he's older, and he has wisdom, and that's important for a president.

And I think she's right.

But there are a lot of people who are concerned about his age.

Joe Biden is concerned about it.

He even said that he's concerned about it.

So, you know, he knows that it's an issue.

So I don't think that's.

But you still think he's going to win.

Because now they're problems.

They're trying to focus on Kamala Harris, obviously,

saying she'll be the real president, et cetera, et cetera.

No,

people talk about that as well.

I think people would like Kamala Harris to be a little bit stronger,

to have...

This is what they're saying to you.

Yes, to be a little bit stronger, to

have more accomplishments under her belt, to be seen,

to be forward-facing a little bit more.

The concern is that Joe Biden will drop her and then he won't get the black support and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know the whole thing.

I don't lean into any of that, but I'm just telling you what people say.

But you still think he's going to win and Donald Trump will not.

I think he'll win.

I think Donald Trump will not.

But who knows?

And then you and I could go to Mar-a-Lago and interview him after that.

I would love to.

I'd do it with you.

We'll make a Donald Trump sandwich.

Let's try to do that.

So what do you think?

What's your prediction?

My prediction?

I'm going to go separately, not on Donald Trump, but on the the writer's strike.

I feel like it may settle by October 15th.

I think there's some pain starting to feel by the studios who are in a better position from a leverage point of view.

I think there's a lot of pain from writers and actors.

And I don't think they're calling them rich people is really working particularly well with the public.

And I think

they have to settle

on some level and maybe push certain things down the road.

I don't know.

I just feel like maybe by October, they'll have to be be settled.

First will be the writers, then the actors.

That's why I'm saying I think the writers will settle soon and then the actors by then, because they have to walk back.

I interviewed Fran Dresher, a lot of stuff they've said

that, you know, not walk it back, but tone it down, like, you know, that they're, they're, they're a bunch of monopoly men, which may or may not be true.

And they have been taking a lot of the value.

And so I do think it's going to.

I think it's going to settle before the new year.

Now, I didn't think.

I thought January 15th was.

I need to get my Don Lemon reality show into production before they come back with the content right are you doing a reality that would be so

what would you call it uh joke uh

uh i don't know i'm joking lemon life i have no idea lemonade lemonade lemon life when life gives you lemons that's what it when life gives you lemons when life gives you lemons like god can i be in your reality show like we can move into a like a house in provincetown and like you have lesbians around some trans people we'll bring ron de santis in after he loses you you know, nomination.

Would you watch that?

Oh, us with Ron DeSantis in a house in Brovinstown?

Are you kidding?

It sells itself.

It would be my family, my dogs, you, and what do we have?

You said we have some

attic, like flowers in the attic.

We keep them up there and let them out every night.

No, he's like, What is it?

No, is it it or thing?

Thing thing, thing from the Adams family.

Oh, God, Don.

That would be a lot of fun.

Anyway, if you need any help figuring out your future, as you know, I understand these things rather well.

So if you need any podcasting help, if you're going to do that,

you should go on Joe Rogan.

It's not so much with Tucker.

I'm sorry.

I think you should rule that one out.

Would you watch that?

New and Tucker?

Yeah.

I think he's a nasty piece of work.

I think maybe back in the day, sure.

I used to like Crossfire, but I think

people have proposed that Tucker

have an event and that we do it live streaming and it's like a prize fight.

Here's how I feel like it.

It'll diminish you and not him.

I think just like Mark Zuckerberg in the cage fight, it diminishes Mark and not Elon.

And I think it diminishes you and not him.

That's what I think.

I think he gets a lot of purchase out of it and you do because his fans are really the lowest group of people sometimes.

Some of them, not all of them, but

I think it diminishes you.

I don't know.

Maybe.

Maybe it could be if he comes back to the way he used to be, but I think he's walked down that road rather far.

Speaking of racist remarks, sexist remarks, et cetera, et cetera, attacking people.

What do you think of Twitter?

Look, I think, well, or X, I think Twitter is,

my gosh, it's such, it's an enormous platform that could do so much good and it's important, especially to,

it has so much importance, especially to people who don't live in democracies, right?

Yep, agree around the world

around the world.

And if Elon Musk could and Linda Yaquarino could just get it right,

I'm not, I'm not confident that's going to happen.

You're not.

No,

I don't.

I'm sorry to say I was one of the people, as you know, that thought it was a great thing.

And then he's really turned it into a real shit show.

Because I hear nothing anymore about threads.

Really interesting.

I like threads quite a bit.

I'm not saying I like it or dislike it.

I'm just saying when people have issues or, you know, if there's a big deal, people go to Twitter still.

If there's an announcement, people go to Twitter.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a habit.

I don't know.

It could be great, but I don't think under, I don't think he can make money, so it doesn't really matter.

And if he wants to own it, like he owns a yacht or a baseball team, fine.

A losing baseball team, that's fine.

You know, he's rich and he makes a lot of money from other things.

So sure, I guess.

I don't know, Don.

You love the Twitter.

You haven't been on it lately.

No, no, I'm not.

I stopped during the, I stopped using Twitter during the Trump era when he was president and people were started attacking me.

No, not really.

I don't.

I have someone who does social media for me, and I'm going to go back to doing my own social media, I think, now.

It's a little bit less toxic.

Try threads.

I think it's good.

That's well.

Stay on Instagram.

Yeah.

But I'll go back eventually.

But anyway, I hope I did okay because I'm kind of rusty.

Yeah.

No, you're good.

No, I was just telling someone you were pro.

Anyway, Don, that's the show.

You can come on anytime.

You can come on anytime.

I did get, I did get, I got half yay Don Lemon on Twitter and half that awful man and on and on about you.

Well, that's pretty good, don't you think?

That was good.

I felt like it was fun.

I wrote back, oh, go fuck yourself.

I'll have who I want on this show.

Thank you.

That's really what I said.

I'm like, get your own fucking show.

And then I say, I'm cursing a lot here now.

Anyway, all right, I got to get back to Carnival.

Everyone's all dressed.

There's a lot of kids.

What are you doing?

No, I'm not.

We're going down to a family reunion, but Carnival is getting firm sounds getting ready for Carnival, and the theme is toys.

You know what?

I would come on your show more often, but I feel objectified by Scott.

No, seriously he has a weird crush on me don't you know that he does i know that i'm aware i'm fine he's tasteful weird man crush and i i don't know it's a little creepy it is a little creepy because you're a handsome man he loves a handsome man you know my mom thinks he's gay but he's not as you know isn't he gay he is a he he has a he has a tremendously beautiful and wonderful smart wife uh it's weird he does have a weird don lemon fixation he's gay-ish gay-ish gay-ish yeah so i will i will have you on when he's not around how about that all righty because i don't want you to feel objectified don lemon because i think you're in your prime

and so are you my dear

mad why didn't you strap you know what he made a mistake thank you

come on and and apologize for it and look at this i don't know if it's well that's a whole nother story but come on yeah yeah you know and i own what i i own what i do anyway you know glass houses that's what i say anyway uh for most people not everyone i love you too we'll be back on Tuesday with a break in Scott Free August.

That's right.

Scott can't quit us.

Don, I'm going to read us out.

Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Enderdott engineered this episode.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

And I'm so looking forward to the new reality show when life gives you lemons.

What do you mean you're going to read us out?

I don't know what that means.

We'll do it live.

We'll do it live.

Thanks, Don Mama.