Trump’s Top Secret Photo, Snap Layoffs, and more with George Hahn

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

It's technically September, but in our hearts, it's still Scott-Free August.

And we're closing with my favorite co-host and friend of the show.

And who was the most popular last year during Free August, the one and only George Han George.

That can't be true.

It is.

I agree.

I couldn't.

I was pretty surprised, honestly.

I thought, really?

Seriously, I mean, if nothing, I am living proof that just a little bit of nerve, a lot of sass, and a deficit of shame, and a solid A-cup will shoot me straight to the middle.

Yes, but you did a great job, and people loved you.

They like our banter.

They think that they like when we gay it up, which this is going to be a particularly gay show.

But isn't it gayer when Scott's on?

Yes, it is.

We have a lot to talk about.

Scott is very upset.

So I thought, I thought it would be good to piss off Scott the very last show.

I'm so happy.

And then I heard that you haven't had a Scott-free August.

What is going on?

Everyone's seen Scott but Karis Wisher.

I've had a Scott full August.

In fact, I think I might be having his baby.

Really?

I am doing his, he has a podcast every week.

It's sort of an audio version of his No Mercy, No Malice newsletter/slash.

Right.

And I do that.

We drop that every Saturday, so I record that on Fridays.

And then I was just up.

He and his stunning wife, I could go on all day about her and everybody.

She's amazing.

They invited me up for a weekend a couple of weeks ago in Nantucket, and it was so lovely.

Yes.

Have you ever been there?

Everyone's been, you know what?

I have.

I went up there for one of that Nantucket Nectars guy, whatever.

He has one of those blah, blah, blah conferences, right?

Whatever.

And I went up for that.

And I didn't like Nantucket.

I have to tell you, I don't like Nantucket.

It's too, you know, I grew up in Princeton, New Jersey.

It's too preppy, first of all.

Every time I fly in, I think, someday this won't exist because it's so flat.

And then all the houses are the same.

And I'm sure you like that aesthetic, but I do not.

Well, the house was like, I felt like I was in the set of a Nancy Myers film.

Like, I felt like

Jack Nicholson and Diane Keaton's house.

Yes, I like it when it's, but they have to build like that.

And the other thing is, I just, when I see the wide-wheel corduroys, multicolored wide-wheel cordoise, the whale belts.

I come back to where I grew up in the whale belts.

And I'm sort of like, do you understand this world is over kind of of thing?

But they don't, right?

Does that make sense?

There's a lot of Oxford cloth.

A lot of Oxford, very white.

I saw our former Secretary of State and Massachusetts Senator John Kerry was at a restaurant where we were having dinner at.

Of course, he's probably part of the furniture there.

He's rusted in.

I get why people like it.

And they like to war with Martha's Vineyard, which I kind of find more interesting in a lot of ways.

I don't know why.

I don't know.

They just have this weird.

I've never been to Martha's Vineyard.

I like, you know where I like?

George?

provincetown uh who come on who does

that's i i like provincetown it's a special it's a special animal it has the cedar thing it's got like it's got the weird out sort of san francisco by the way it's a little too much which i like it's and then all the straight people come now and look and and they like it too like it's really i don't know i kind of like it i like provincetown a lot i love it but it's this gig that you're doing you're doing it regularly yeah we do it every week it's in the prop g pod like feed Then he's got a couple of other products, if you will.

Like there's no mercy, no malice that he and I do every week.

And then he's got another one called Markets that he drops every Monday.

And then there's his Prof G thing.

So in that same feed, he's got a couple of products going.

And it's fun.

I really

enjoyed it.

I've noticed he does those through August and not this one.

So I have noticed.

Have you noticed that?

Yeah.

What is that about?

Because this is what made him famous, right?

I know.

And I like, I didn't ask him about it.

You know, we had a lot of time together.

And again, his wife, she is so lovely.

I might be a lesbian now.

Yeah.

And she rallies.

Because, you know, my mother thinks he's gay, as you know, has

asked him a number of times.

I have news for your mother, but that's okay.

Anyway, we've got a lot to talk about today.

And I know you have a lot to say about a lot of things, but today we're going to talk about Donald Trump's true social meltdown.

As the case against him grows, we saved it for you.

Also, Snapchat's loss could be Netflix's gain.

We'll hear from a very special friend of Pivot, my brother, about long COVID, et cetera.

There's a lot going on there.

I was just in San Francisco with Jeff, Jeff Swisher, and did a lot of tests, which he was great helping me through them and stuff like that.

I have nothing wrong with me.

I just always get myself tested.

And I know, George, you have a lot to say about that too.

But first, Twitter is announcing all sorts of new features this week.

They were continuing to move on.

The latest and edit feature for Twitter blues subscribers for $4.99 a month.

You'll be able to edit a tweet for 30 minutes after you first post it.

Here's the thing, though, edited tweets will be labeled, and users will be able to look at the previous versions, which is a good idea.

I think that's a good idea.

I think it should be free.

I don't know why they don't make it free.

That should be something everybody else has editable everything.

Meanwhile, the social media company is also rolling in its new circles feature.

Users can now share tweets with a select group of friends while hiding them from the main timeline.

Some users are calling it rollout gay Twitter holiday.

George, have you been using circles?

Did you celebrate Circle Day?

What do you think?

I've not been using Twitter's Circle Jerk, whatever it is.

No,

what I don't understand, and this is a, I'm not being funny here.

I don't understand the difference between circles or communities, which Pivot has a Twitter community, and then there's a private message group.

What is the difference?

Exactly.

Thank you.

You just articulated the problem.

Thank you.

It's all the issue.

It's all the same.

And one of the things, circles was used on Google, and I don't even remember when Google had Google Plus.

Do you remember Google Plus?

I remember that.

Yes.

And

you made circles, and it was so fucking confusing.

I don't understand what is.

Why would you, first of all, why wouldn't you just use text if you were texting a group of friends, right?

Group text, which seemed to work.

And there was a bunch of group text apps for years, but group text seems to work just fine.

Right.

And if you don't want people to see things on Twitter, why are you on Twitter at all?

Right.

That's another thing.

I'm not going to do some Carlos Danger, Anthony Wiener naughtiness.

That's for Grindr.

Honestly, I trust the security of texts on, say, an Apple phone versus on Twitter.

I would worry that it would get seen.

I don't DM as much anymore.

I don't know about you.

How do I want to say this?

Number one, what's with the extra charge?

I already subscribed to Twitter Blue, and that gets me some ad-free content, and I can upload videos up to 10 minutes long.

Yay.

Right.

But also,

is it in Twitter's best interest?

Is it in our best interest?

As they scramble for a way to become, I don't know, because they're bored, they need to tack on a feature or something.

It's confusing, but do we need it?

We need the edit button.

The edit button's a great idea.

100% agreed.

But I'm kind of like 100 years ago.

Let's go back to the DNA.

Like, I like the OG Twitter in a way.

Like, that's what it's like when

Mini Coopers came and everybody loved the Mini Cooper and we love how small it is.

Okay, great.

Now let's make it big.

Okay, great.

You just killed what made it charming.

You know,

I have a big Mini Cooper.

All right, we got to talk about that.

We got to talk about that.

It's not mine.

It's my son's.

It's my son.

Well, we have one.

We had one and we liked it.

I like my Mini Cooper.

But you got the one that looked like it's got blown up on steroids?

Yes, because I have big children.

It's too small.

But why a mini?

You need a maxi vehicle for your large, tall son.

I do.

I have a Kia Sorrento, as most people know.

I have a Kia Sorrento for all the children, which makes me very sexy.

It's hot in the upside down.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

People are like, is that a Kia Sorrento you're driving?

Yes, it's only $28,000.

It was like super cheaper than there's like a Volvo version of it.

If you want to tell the world world you hate sex, we have the car for you.

I love my Keo Sorrento.

I love it so much.

It's the segue of cars.

Okay, I had a Honda minivan when I was in my 20s.

I drove a Honda minivan.

That's what I drove.

And I used to push the button and go, get in.

Oh, God.

It was sexy.

I love my Honda minivan.

I don't know why I had it.

I had it, though.

I loved it.

I mean, I like vans for different reasons, you know, but.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Okay.

Well, I just.

This is a family show.

Yeah, exactly.

No, it's not, not at all, not with you here.

So you don't think this matters?

What is Twitter to do?

I haven't heard your comments on the Elon Twitter thing, obviously.

But by the way, speaking of that, earlier this year, Twitter considered taking on OnlyFans.

The company considered allowing adult content creators to sell subscriptions to their content while taking a cut.

But in tests, Twitter concluded that it could not, quote, accurately detect child sexual exploitation and non-consensual nudity at scale and killed the idea.

It's not where you go for your porn, is it?

No, just be Twitter.

And also, Scott has been beating this drum a lot, and I'm on the same page with him.

Charge money, but for the reason Scott has talked about, if you have X amount of followers, you pay this tier.

I would really like, I like that we've got the blue check verified thing.

So like, I know who I am.

So when trolls come at me, and they occasionally do, I don't really engage with them.

But

one of my favorite comebacks is, please use your real, you know, come at me with your real name and a real photo.

You know who I am.

Otherwise, like, why should I care?

Right.

But porn, not something you know Twitter.

No, no.

There are porn.

There are, there is porn on Twitter.

I have come across it.

Right.

Not that much, though.

You don't see it a lot.

No.

Right.

Yeah.

But do you think about them making it a business?

It's a very lucrative business.

It can be a business.

Of course it is.

You know, they always say, like, if you want to know where tech's going, follow the porn.

Right, exactly.

So what do you think of them doing that?

You wouldn't use it for that.

No, not at all.

I have

no other resources for that.

All right.

And lastly, I'd love to know what your thoughts on Elon Musk's latest legal move.

He has a lot of them, just like Donald Trump in a weird way, is subpoenaing the Twitter whistleblower, Peter Zotko, aka Mudge.

Let's call him Mudge.

Musk has sought information from a whistleblower on how Twitter measures spam accounts.

In addition, he's requested information about attempts to hide security weaknesses and Twitter's engagement.

Of course, he was going to do this, this guy who was.

Where do we think we are with this?

Is the air out of the balloon on this particular?

No, I just think.

Well, I don't know.

I think the timing is really convenient in light of the arguments that Musk is trying to make in order to weasel out of the deal.

But this whistleblower is this report or whatever, the timing is very convenient because it gives Elon another sort of

wave to surf.

You know, oh, and by the way, and then there's this, and this is the other reason why I don't want to go through this deal.

It's like, no, dude, the deal, you, and you and Mr.

You and Cohen talked about it last week or last episode.

This whole thing was Elon's idea.

Like, dude, you, you hit on Twitter and now you don't want to put out.

Like, now you've decided you want to close.

He is the one who started that.

Yeah, he hit on Twitter.

He hit on Twitter.

And now Twitter's like, okay, well, maybe I'm interested.

Yeah.

Except now they want the money.

Right.

This is a hooker transaction and he's trying to get away with not paying.

How would you feel if he does get a hold of it?

What, how would you feel about Twitter?

I would still use it.

I would wait and see because I don't know what he's going to do.

I'm not a fan of Elon.

I think he's a dick.

Right.

But I would wait and see.

You say that like that's a bad thing, but go ahead.

Sorry.

It's not the kind of dick I appreciate, Carol.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Okay.

I think it'll be interesting.

It does make me worry about, honestly, security.

That's what I would worry about.

Yeah.

And I probably should be worried about security now.

But I think he would let Trump back.

I mean, he's flirted with the idea of letting Trump back on.

No, he said he would.

He said, which is a horrible idea.

Which is a horrible idea.

We'll get to what's Trump's got to have somewhere to go soon.

We'll talk about that in a second.

Lastly, Goldman Sachs says school is back in session and COVID is out.

The firm is asking workers to come back into the office five days a week and we'll drop all COVID requirements for office entry.

Goldman chief executive David Solomon has long been opposed to continuing remote work, has been pushing for return since February 2021.

What do you think about this?

I mean, neither you or I go into the office.

So listen, leaders lead and often lead by example.

Set the tone.

But if David Solomon's not in the office full-time, then he's got to fuck off with this.

So you've got to make a good case for it.

Exactly.

And not just because, not just because you're claiming that it's good for the company culture.

Personally, I have my own personal feelings about it.

I like, like, I'm in, I'm at Vox right now.

I'm not doing this in my apartment.

I like getting out of the house personally.

Right.

I like coming here.

I've got.

When you want.

When I want.

But I like coming here.

But like, if you go, if I go outside this studio, it's tumbleweeds.

Yes, it's empty.

It's crazy.

So what is the solution or what is the option?

I think give people the option, I suppose.

And some people, especially if they are caretakers of a loved one or if they have children or something, like if I were living, my mother is sick and like a job, a great job for my sister, who's been largely her caretaker, would be if she got to work remotely, but she cannot.

She cannot, right?

She's not allowed to.

No, not with her job.

So

I think it depends.

And also, especially for young people, Scott, again, I mean, I am sitting in his chair.

I know he thinks they should go in and make friends.

Yeah, especially if they're young.

You got to make connections and like figure out like how else you're going to have an affair with the boss come on like yes that's okay all right okay okay take that one down um but one of the things i think that is important is intentional and i keep saying this over and over again if if you're going in everybody has to go in on say monday wednesday friday whatever it is but everyone has to be there because what happens is people go in and they're the only person in there if they hit it at the wrong time and so then you have the feeling of why am i here kind of thing and you also you want a happy workforce uh and they will be productive for you and you know, everything you need to know is in the movie 9 to 5 because there was the story London there about flexible work hours.

And when they kidnapped Dabney Coleman and the three ladies started taking over,

they made flexible work hours a thing.

And the secretaries were happy and it was a better place.

Like everything you need to know is in that movie.

It's wonderful.

That's a great movie.

It's wonderful.

What's your favorite scene?

It's Dolly Parton.

It's delicious, but always one of my favorite is I love the three women, of course, but I love Elizabeth Wilson.

She plays Roz.

oh right

um violet did you get my memo yeah roz i tore right through it like did you get the latest memo yes roz i know right where to stick it like

she's so great she was my acting teacher she was great oh really oh yeah she was fantastic every office has a roz and we need roz back in the office you gotta figure out ways to make some jokes and you know there's there's good time space yeah you know what i do i show up at the office every now and again for to delight people that's how i did it no i did office hours office hours, exactly.

Like a professor.

Exactly.

That's what me, Professor Swisher.

Anyway, let's get on to our big story now.

The Justice Department is showing its hand.

In a court filing this week, the DOJ published a photo that appears to show top secret documents seized from Trump's residence.

The government says that the documents were intentionally hidden from investigators, which could lay the groundwork for obstruction.

And on Wednesday night, Trump seemed to confirm the documents were his in a post on True Social.

He really has to stop posting.

So this has been astonishing.

This is crazy.

What do we make of the evolving defense?

He also went on a posting spree on TrueSocial.

He spent Tuesday morning reposting content from his supporters, more than 60 posts in all, some of it straight from QAnon and 4chan.

So talk a little bit about this because the New York Times had noted the department officials are not expected to file charges imminently if they ever do.

I can't imagine someone's not going to be charged here, but maybe his lawyers.

How are you looking at this?

I'm looking at a guy who's unraveling.

I think on Tuesday, somebody on Twitter, because I, you know, everybody reposts or, you know, screenshots.

You know, I was enjoying Twitter because it was Trump-free, and now it's not.

It's just like, I guess maybe you might as well just let him back on on some level because like all of his content winds up there regurgitated anyway.

Yes, yes, 100.

Pictures of it for sure.

Screenshots of his truths.

But

I think he posted like 60 times that day.

That's irrational, abnormal.

He's panicking.

I read read a thing recently

when someone sent a guy who was close to him, I forget who this person was, or was writing about him or something.

When Trump got kicked out of off social media,

he started, he was depressed and he put on a bunch of weight.

Like he was freaking out.

Like Trump freaks out.

This is him, I think, freaking out.

Well, he likes popularity.

I think someone was noting to me, someone who covers him, was that he likes popularity.

And if he's not being talked about, even if it's badly, he gets upset.

Oh, he really does.

Of course.

He's equating the thing, even though it's actually the Republicans are not very happy that it's about Trump again because they want to be talking about Joe Biden.

They want to be talking about gas prices, inflation going into the elections, which they were winning really.

Now they're not really winning.

We'll see what happens, but they should be winning right now.

And right now, it's all about Trump and

if possibly nefarious things he's done.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I think he should just keep doling out enough rope with which to politically hang himself.

Well, what about in terms of

his defenses?

He says he declassified things.

His lawyers gave him all the classified documents.

Okay, I kept them, but not on the floor.

You know, they were in a box, et cetera, et cetera.

George Conway noted they, in asking for this special master, it allowed the feds to say what he had done and put it out there, which they wouldn't have been able to officially.

And so they're speaking with their filings.

And so one of the things George Conway said, which I thought was really smart, is they said

he asked them to punch them in the face and they did.

And that's what they did.

And we laugh about it, but he's encouraging people to believe conspiracy theories.

We're still talking about the conspiracy theories, including this one.

There was a bomb throughout this week at Boston Children's Hospitals after right-wing media spread rumors of child abuse there.

So, and other people think he should just, since he's posting confessions, maybe he should just keep posting, no matters what the lawyers say, post, post, post.

I'm sort of like, enough of him.

He just either charge him or don't, and then move on from him.

But people seem not to be able to.

On some level, it is interesting and perhaps ultimately detrimental if he keeps doling out enough rope with which to hang himself and taunting.

And then there was another part of me, Kara, like,

okay, blah, blah, we get excited about this.

We've been excited about other things before, whether it was the impeachment,

whether it's the January 6th hearing.

Now we're going to get the villain, right?

Now

are we, though?

Because we.

Part of me, the cynic in me is saying to myself, self,

nothing's going to change.

He's going to get away with this.

The rules rules and the law do not apply to him, and it's going to be nothing.

And on Twitter, everyone, so many people seem to get really excited about it and tweeting photos and opinions I respect.

Yeah.

Oh, here it's coming.

It's coming.

He's in trouble now.

He's in trouble now.

And I'm just sitting there going like, you know what?

I'm going to go take a nap.

Wake me up when he's in jail.

There is a difference between lawyers' legal stuff and Congress, right?

Congress has no teeth.

Law stuff, I mean, look, Martha Stewart went in jail for for a very relatively minor thing compared to this, right?

But she's Martha Stewart, and he's Donald Trump is this weird, like, he's a real greasy animal.

You know, he's a greased pig.

Seriously.

He really is.

He is.

The legal things, I think, are much more.

Although he's gotten out of legal jams before in lots of different ways.

That's what I mean.

I want to be hopeful.

The thing is, everyone behaves, I think, and he doesn't.

And that's where the power is.

For example, the Justice Department, 60 days before an election, tends not to charge things that are highly political.

So that's September 10th.

So if they don't, they don't charge him by September 10th, they're not going to charge him until after the election.

You know, they certainly could charge his lawyers.

They could charge all kinds of things, but it's, it's, it's because everyone else behaves and he doesn't.

And we're learning.

What are they going to do?

Kind of nothing.

Or is there anything you can do, right?

That's the problem.

And it gets, it does get a little disheartening.

At the same time, it's it's a downward spiral on some level for him.

I think the Republicans have sort of had it that it's about him and, you know, hair on fire.

That's not good for voters.

Because look, in Alaska, an Indigenous woman, one, a Democrat, who's quite liberal, over Sarah Palin, which is amazing.

I think that's the result of this nonsense for them.

You know, when it comes to Trump, and again, he is this very, he is a completely original animal

in this game.

And he is defied.

You know, listen, we thought he was done after access hollywood the access hollywood tape it should have been done after he made fun of a disabled reporter it should have been over after x like pick a point there are so many and yet he just keeps going and the crowd cheers him on louder here's the comparison i make is john gotti he got caught and he died in prison that's what happened to him they flouted it remember he was always like yeah come and arrest me whatever teflon dawn eventually he died in prison that's eventually what happened to him so fingers crossed.

I don't know.

I think this is just

I'm really astonished by sort of the shamelessness of it.

Then I'm like, oh, that is actually a very powerful way to be.

But speaking of which, he may not have a place to post.

True Social is still not available in the Google Play Store.

Google says the app lacks the needed systems for moderating user content.

That's a violation of the store's terms of service.

I don't know if Apple will be doing the same.

And also,

it's got all kinds of money problems, whether it's the SPAC, it's not going to SPAC properly.

They aren't paying vendors and things like that.

So this business.

A Trump Enterprise isn't paying paying a vendor?

You're kidding.

I know, exactly.

So he may not have a place to post.

So he either has to go to another one or

that's going to be a giant mess from what I've been talking to all of you.

It's been a giant mess.

It's always been a mess.

Yes, I get it, but it's going to not exist at some point.

And so the question is, where does he go?

And if Elon gets it, he does get back on Twitter or he goes over to some of the others like Getter or Parlor or wherever.

But here is, from a copyright standpoint,

I've never seen Truth Social other than the screenshots that people post on it.

It is such a Twitter knockoff, like almost literally.

Doesn't can't Twitter take them to court?

Like, no, that's what our icons look like.

That's where we put our, they can't, there's nothing there.

No, nothing.

He can do there.

I think the question is whether he gets back on one of the main systems or not.

And they're hoping, you know, if Twitter prevails against Elon Elon, does not buy the company and it gets its money, I don't think they'll ever revisit this again.

All right, George, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about the trouble at Snapchat and speak to a friend of Pivot, my bro, about long COVID and more.

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Okay, George, we're back with our second big story.

Snap Inc.

is disappearing.

The company says it will lay off 20% of its workforce, and that's around 1,200 people.

They hired a lot during the pandemic.

Snap also killed off its selfie drone, which I've got right here.

I've got it right behind me, the Pixie, after just four months of launching it.

I'm very excited to own it.

So, were you ever on Snapchat?

I'm having Evan Spiegel to code next week.

I was on it for a day.

I have an account.

I used it for like a day and I got bored.

Because you had no friends?

Well, story of my life.

No,

I didn't see,

not that I didn't see the value of it.

Like,

we're communicating with cave paintings again.

Like, it's a more, it's another assault on words.

From a writer's perspective, that kind of bothered me a little bit.

But also,

I don't know.

I just, I couldn't.

And it's not like I'm a Luddite.

I love tech.

I love TikTok.

I love, you know, I loved Vine when that was a thing.

Like, I love all this stuff.

Snapchat, I couldn't get into it.

I tried.

I couldn't get into it.

You probably didn't have people using it.

It was very a teen, you know, my kids love it because they have all their friends on it.

I was playing with, I was with my nieces and nephews.

I mean, they were just like, you know, they, they're, they, they're all about it.

And we did do, we did do some snapping back and forth.

Um, I understand the fun of it, but um, it struck me as something

whose value would be short-lived.

And not monetary value, but like entertainment value.

Like this is fun, but like a toy that I'm going to get bored with after a while.

Right, right.

I think it's not designed for you, it's designed for kids.

So, I for you know, your nieces and nephews are still on it, correct?

Right, you're still using it and heavily, so are mine.

My kids are, and also, it really did.

Um, you know, Twitter circles and Instagram's close friends are both similar to Snapchat's Friends First model.

Other apps have added disappearing messages like WhatsApp, Messenger, and Instagram.

And of course, Snapchat invented stories, and now everybody copies them.

So, they certainly have been a font of creativity for sure.

I think it's just difficulty is sustaining this as something beyond what it was.

Also, they also lost two big executives for Netflix as it spins up its new ads-based tier.

Snap is an ad-based company, and of course, it got suffered when ads went down.

It did very well until it didn't.

It was doing really well during the pandemic.

And Netflix is going to need a bigger marquee.

It's releasing more than 40 films before the end of the year.

That's more movies than all the big studios are sending to theaters in the same period.

But theaters aren't going down with a fight.

This Saturday, major chains, including AMC and Regal, are offering $3 tickets for National Cinema Day.

You're a famous moviegoer.

What do you think first of the ad tier at Netflix?

And would you avail yourself to that?

And how do you look at them right now, given there's so many other streamers?

And then movie theaters.

You know, I have predicted like that it's going to be a very small business, but you love going to the movies.

I do.

You like going to the movies.

I saw your pictures.

Not very often.

You went to the Maverick, the Top Gun Maverick premiere.

That was the premiere in London, and people were dressed up in Tom Cruise.

You had your sassy blue suit on.

You were feeling cute, you looked tiny.

I know, but that was like

once in a blue movie.

But didn't you enjoy that experience being in a theater and seeing it on a big, giant screen?

I saw, I enjoy seeing that movie in a big theater.

I went to see Thor, which wasn't a very good movie in a big theater.

If it was good, I would have enjoyed seeing it there.

I'm trying to think of a movie I'll see in the theater, a James Bond franchise movie, maybe.

Yeah, that's about it.

There are some movies that are just conducive to that experience, right?

Right, but you go to lots of movies, right?

You still believe in movie theaters.

Well, I don't want want to say, I don't want to put it that way because I think they have a lot of reinventing to do because it does, well, as much as my happy place is sitting in a theater with a bag of popcorn, an ice-cold soda, and a bag of Twizzlers, watching something that's really great that takes me out of my life for two hours.

Like AMC, for example, which is the chain that I visit most, they have a lot of work to do because there is a lot about their experience that sucks.

Right.

Yeah.

And I want to

bitch slap anybody getting a bonus because it's so undeserved.

I don't know.

I feel like no, listen, my kids don't go to the movie theaters.

They watch everything streaming.

They watch it on their phones often, which is interesting.

I know movie makers hate that, but they do.

Most movies aren't deserving of

the $10 it costs.

They just aren't.

$10?

Oh, huh.

Wait a minute.

I don't even know.

Again, I went free.

I went free.

So I'm trying to remember the last thing I saw.

I saw Nope, the new Jordan Peel, which was great.

You did not see that on a plane or streaming.

No, Nope is something you needed on a big screen because it's the sky and it's UFOs.

That was very conducive to a big screen.

And Jordan Peele is making such good movies, it's a pleasure.

He is.

He is indeed.

The movie was, I went to see it in Dolby Cinema, which is not just standard and it's between standard and IMAX.

Right.

Okay.

That ticket, I think, was like 23 bucks.

23.

Yes, ma'am.

And then the snacks, you know, my feed bucket of over-buttered, over-salted popcorn, and

my keg of soda that has an undertow and my bag of Twizzlers.

And I'm almost 50 bucks in

with one guy, and that's no dinner, no sex, like just the movie, ma'am.

And that's a lot.

It is.

It is.

So, was it worth it?

That's what I'm saying.

It's not a big business.

And especially since the experience, if the seats aren't great, if the experience isn't frictionless, it's just, it is exactly the same as when I went when I was a kid.

And it was better then because the popcorn was better.

The things were cheaper.

The seats were not better necessarily.

It's probably going to be limited because I do enjoy that experience.

I mean, there is a part of me, I am a cinephile, I love movies.

I am a purist.

What kind do you go?

You go to the old, old movies, too.

And I can see going to old, old movies in a city.

The UC 25 on 42nd Street used to do that.

They had the 25-screen multiplex, still do.

And on one of the smaller screens,

they showed classics like Citizen Kane, Wizard of Oz, and I'm like, and then it went away because people weren't weren't into it.

I love that shit.

Right.

I could see one theater in New York that shows.

I mean, there is.

There's a film forum.

The film forum and the Paris Theater between Bergdorf and the Plaza.

Yes.

Netflix owns that and renovated it.

and has done speaking of Netflix, they did a beautiful job with that theater.

Yeah, and they put in their movies in there, right?

Not all the time, though.

I like something they showed recently that is not in the Netflix streaming library.

So it's not exclusively their stuff.

But yeah, they do when there's a Netflix original that they want to have, because I think you still have to have a theatrical release for Oscars.

What do you spend your time doing more?

Going to theater or watching on a Netflix kind of thing?

Oh, definitely streaming more for sure.

Streaming.

There was a really great analyst for Puck that writes about it, and she was talking about that Netflix is making all these movies and that they finally are 50% original content, which was their goal many, many years ago.

It feels like they're spreading it a little too thin.

Like it's like

pull it back.

Yeah,

but they are at 50% original content.

And eventually they will have,

we'll hit with a bunch of franchises, right?

Whether it's Stranger Things or whatever it happens to be, just the way.

But the other companies have had 50 years of this, of making franchises.

And some work and some don't.

The other part is, even though people come for, say, Stranger Things, which is a big hit right now, the rehearsal, I think that's on Netflix is a big thing.

The rehearsal is HBO.

HBO.

Is it HBO?

Whatever.

They come for something fresh and new from whether it's HBO or Netflix or whatever.

But people stay for re-watching the Marvel movies or old classics like Nine to Five or something like that.

They come for one thing, like a new thing, but they stay, and that's where much of the movie, and that's what Netflix doesn't have because everyone pulled them friends, for example.

And Netflix re-watched that.

In terms of batting average, in terms of like, let's say they put out

a hundred original shows or movies,

a fewer percentage of them are going to be really tentpole, amazing ones.

Whereas

Apple or HBO seems to be, in terms of taste level and

quality, seems to be a little more discerning.

Really?

You think so?

Are you watching the Game of Thrones?

Are you watching?

I did watch the first one at Scott's, actually.

We watched it.

We had to have the boys leave the room a few times.

Yeah, I bet.

But

I'll continue with it.

It's fine.

But

I love the morning show on Apple TV Plus and Severance.

My God.

Yep.

Very good.

I think they're sort of a comer.

I think they are.

I think they're the new HBO.

Interestingly, though, Netflix has made Sandman, which and Echoes, which are two big hits right now.

But that's my point.

Like, for every four good ones, there's like 30 pieces of shit that no one cares about.

Yes, that is fair.

That is fair.

That is fair.

But I think old TV was like that.

If you look through people's

broad network television over the years, there's shows that you were like, come and gone, come and gone, come and gone.

It's just that they're doing this in plain sight comparatively.

But they're just burning money with these productions.

And I'm glad that

actors except me are getting work on their show.

But it just seems like they're throwing a lot of money at stuff.

It's like, oh, yeah, here's a check.

Okay, go make it.

Like, is anybody having a creative meeting?

Right.

That's true.

Although they have Never Have I Ever is Doing Well, there's a whole bunch of them.

It's a really mixed bag.

And I think some of them are really quite amazing.

And some, like, you know, for example, on Netflix, they tried to make Space Force didn't really work.

The Ranch didn't work.

But it is amazing the amount of content that's coming out.

It really is astonishing.

Which means theaters, you're fucked.

I thank you very much.

That's the end of my thing.

Okay, George, let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

Dr.

Jeffrey Swisher is the chairman of the Department of Anesthesiology at California Pacific Medical Center, a friend of the show, and an even bigger honor for him, my brother.

Jeffrey, we wanted to bring you on to discuss long COVID, especially George's long COVID and other things, and also to talk about monkeypox, whatever the heck you want to talk about.

Last May, George wrote a post on his site detailing a mysterious series of panic attacks that began in November, and he suspects maybe symptoms of long COVID.

George, first tell us briefly what you experienced.

I was

starting in November of 2021,

around Thanksgiving time, I was in a Broadway theater.

I was seeing To Kill a Mockingbird.

And as the show started, I started to have a panic.

What I later learned was a panic attack.

I thought I was having a heart attack.

And it went on for like about 30 to 40 minutes.

I thought I'm going to be the one who is going to, they're going to stop the show for me.

I'm leaving this theater in a stretcher.

I was fine, as I said, after about 40 minutes,

shaken, but fine.

And then nothing for a couple of months.

And then it happened again.

And then I had a few more, finally engaged the medical community.

And this was manifesting with panic attacks, a form of anxiety, heart palpitations.

I was exerting very easily.

Like I live on the eighth floor.

Sometimes I would walk up just for the exercise.

I was blown out by the third floor.

Like, I couldn't get further than that.

You're very fit.

You're quite fit.

Yeah.

I try to take care of myself.

And so something was awry.

Oh, gosh.

Medical community, we love to throw pills at it.

So I am on an antidepressant, Lexapro to be specific.

I also have, oh, and I went to the emergency room because I had a heart, like the anxiety that went on for a whole day and was given Ativan for that, which I still carry with me.

It's in my pocket right now.

It's like a break glass in case of emergency kind of a thing.

I haven't needed it for a while.

That's very common to do that.

You know, both of my boys have panic attacks every now and then.

And one of the things that we have them carry is an Adivan with them.

Yeah, it's in my pocket right now.

Yeah, it's a break-glass thing.

But, you know, all of the symptoms that you're experiencing

is what's known as the fight or flight response, right?

Actually, it's better known, I think, better fight-flight,

you know, freeze or faint response is an even better response for it.

And it's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's all physiologic.

And it's really due to a perception of some kind of threat that you are,

you know, experiencing.

And your brain, specifically when you experience a threat, the amygdala then sends a signal to the hypothalamus, which then sends a signal to the adrenal medulla to produce two hormones, adrenaline and noradrenaline, or epinephrine and norepinephrine, same thing.

And that gives you all of the symptoms that you're experiencing when you have this fight-or-flight response.

And you think about it, I mean, humans have been having this for hundreds to 200,000 years for, you know, our current,

and even before that, Homo erectus for 2 million years.

You know, we were prey, right?

And so it's very important that when we develop this response, that, you know, all these physiologic responses, which we still have, cause this, you know, these feelings that you have.

So one of the the things was that it was COVID-related.

And there was just a news story this week about how much heart stuff and brain stuff around long COVID.

Can you talk a little bit?

Is this these?

Because I have a lot of friends with long COVID.

And one of my friends, they tremor inside.

Another one has heart, just like with George.

One other one who was a long-distance runner is winded all the time really easily.

Talk a little bit about long COVID.

What are you seeing?

You were practicing in San Francisco throughout the COVID epidemic.

You finally got it yourself

by traveling, which is interesting.

Talk a little bit about long COVID, especially people who had COVID before the vaccinations, because that's where the real problem is, correct?

Well, yeah, well, I think even before,

regardless of when you get COVID, I'm actually similar to George.

I'm suffering some of the same effects of long COVID as well.

I got it in early July when I was on a bike trip in Nova Scotia.

And I got very sick.

I mean, surprisingly sick.

I was concerned that I might have to go to the hospital and I took Paxlovid

and that got better.

But still, two months later, I'm still experiencing similar symptoms that George has.

Shortness of breath when I climb stairs, a little feeling of panicky sometimes, you know, and you know, the effects of long COVID are incredibly varied in people.

I mean, they can range from exactly what George is describing

to some people are developing inflammatory disorders.

There's a few really scary.

side effects of long COVID.

And it may have to do with the inflammatory effects that this virus has.

The scariest effects are

particularly vascular and potentially blood clotting.

And some people,

George, you sent me some things on Twitter the other day that was in, I forget where the link was from.

Financial Times, I think?

Yeah, Financial Times.

It was a layman's link, but it was quite good.

And it just showed the increase in people who are having heart attacks, who are having strokes, who are having...

myocarditis and pericarditis, which is an inflammation of the heart, all since this COVID epidemic.

And interestingly, I don't know if you noticed yesterday, but the lifespan of Americans has now decreased almost three years since the start of the COVID epidemic.

And this is all due to the secondary, not just dying of COVID itself, but some of the secondary effects, which are strokes and heart attacks.

Yeah, COVID was a driving cause for the change.

U.S.

life expectancy dropped to just over 76 years.

It's the lowest suspense since 1996.

And other countries did not suffer this.

Well, we've had an incredible number of people who were infected from COVID.

Plus, I would say, you know, the population of our country is not the healthiest compared to a lot of other countries in terms of.

And if you look at the other countries around the world, you know, we don't have data from Russia.

I don't believe we do.

But countries that are similar to ours in terms of obesity and heart disease, et cetera,

I think that you're going to see more of those effects.

So what to do about this when you think about it, you yourself are suffering it, George is suffering.

Everyone, of course, medically.

Mine's passing.

Passing.

Yeah, I think mine is too.

Mine is two.

but i'm concerned in fact one of my colleagues who's a who's a thoracic surgeon who had covet very early on uh kind of surprised me he asked me the other day whether i've had my legs scanned ultrasound scanned for blood clots and i didn't think about it but you know one of the things when you had your stroke for instance you know what's it 11 or almost 12 years ago um you know it was due to a blood clot that uh trapped traveled from your legs up to your heart so covet may predispose you to have these you know blood clots due to inflammation of the vascular system um and And then you can develop strokes from that.

People who haven't had a stroke, you mean?

Yeah, people who have not had a stroke.

Oddly enough, I am the one person who hasn't had COVID, which is unusual.

The one person who has blood clot problems.

Most of this.

More than just you, Kara, who have not had a cross-roll.

No, I know, but I'm saying among this group.

I'm glad I didn't because I would worry you.

I attacked.

Jeffrey and I talked about this when we had our amazing bagels at Barney Green.

And by the way, can I just say, do you know, speaking of Scott?

Yeah.

He got very upset by this relationship.

Can you explain it?

Let me just say that, I tell you, George, it's a magical moment, right?

Here we go.

It was so magical.

Oh, my God.

I walked up to the west side and I stood outside Barney Greengrass and I saw you there.

And you were a very handsome man, by the way.

As are you, sir.

As are you.

You know, it's fine.

And, you know, you know, I'm straight, but I am not narrow, as they say.

And I was like, oh, my God, this man is so handsome.

And so we sat there at that back table and we gazed at the college.

And I mean, a guy came up to George during the thing, said, are you George hahn and i was like oh my god i'm with a celebrity and you know it was just but you know the thing is it's it's really too bad scott wasn't there i mean really

really too bad yeah yeah

it's a trouble it would be a trouble it really would be the hottest all right back to covid what are the implications uh of this going forward because they just announced another vaccine right correct yeah yeah it's a it's what's known as a bivalent vaccine um and so a bivalent vaccine has the mRN remember these are mRNA mRNA vaccines.

So what they do is they cause your body to produce the antigen, which then your immune response kicks up as a result of.

And so

this vaccine is a bivalent vaccine.

And I personally waited to take this vaccine because it's going to have elements from the original SARS-CoV-2, which was like the Delta variant, and the current variant, the BA4, BA5 variant.

which is what I had and probably, you know, a lot of people had.

And because it's much more infectious, this most, the most, or a micron variant.

It's known as.

So should people take it?

Should people take these things?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're in, I think there's a couple things.

The Financial Times article talks about this, about who should take this, you know, the vaccine.

I think if you're high risk, you should definitely take it.

If you haven't had a booster in, say, six months, you should take it.

Very, I would say the high-risk individuals.

And I would include myself.

I'm over age 60.

I have a pre-existing condition.

So people like me should definitely take it.

And

so yes, and I've been waiting for it.

You should take it probably at least several months after you've had an active COVID infection because

your immune system will

respond better to it.

It'll give you a better antibody response to the vaccine.

But people aren't taking vaccines now.

They're sort of down.

They're putting people back in work with no COVID restrictions now.

How do you look at that?

You know, it's happening all over the place.

I mean, I think that we're just like, you know, this, this, this virus, everybody says, oh, it's going away, and then it rears its ugly head again.

And you can see the nature of it.

I mean, the case rates just go up and down.

It has to do with the time of the year.

Are people going back inside for work?

Are they going back to work, for instance?

And so the more people are in a

confined environment, the more we're going to see this vaccine.

It's not going away at all.

Right now, it's in kind of a slow burn.

We see the same.

So is that more like the flu that you have every year or more like something else?

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe you might have to have it every year like the flu vaccine.

You know, there's nothing to stop a new variant from emerging.

So this current vaccine is going to deal with Omicron and prior, you know, COVID sort of antigens.

And so it'll give you more protection against a more infectious version of COVID, which is the Omicron variant.

I went to Mount Sinai's post-COVID care center to get an assessment.

And when I described all the symptoms that I had just run run down for you guys, the woman just said to me, she's seen a lot of this.

And I didn't feel like such a unicorn.

And I just like, I was crying in her office.

And by the time I was done with the appointment, I felt not alone and that I was not the only one.

So I talk about this a lot on social media.

I wrote about it.

Cause I wanted to sort of do my part in getting the word out that like this does happen and there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm feeling better.

There have other things that I've been throwing at it.

I've been meditating.

I see a therapist now.

I'm eating.

I'm re-engaging with exercise, basically taking care of myself.

I quit smoking.

I haven't had a cigarette in over six months because I thought it might have been triggered by that, this panicky feeling, even though it wasn't helping it, certainly.

So I've made a lot of changes personally that may have contributed to a quicker recovery from it.

I don't know.

But there is,

I guess, their point at the Mount Sinai Care Center was she said, this will pass.

I'm starting to come out on the other side of it.

And

whether it's through just, you know, time.

She said to me at the COVID care center at Mount Sinai, it could be months, weeks, a year on the outside.

For me, for me, it was,

I would say about seven months.

Yeah.

That's very typical.

I mean,

this is very common.

I'm hearing this story a lot.

And, you know, this long COVID thing.

And it's real.

It's a real thing that we all need to be concerned about.

And i feel i feel normal i was nervous about going to nantucket to get on a plane oh really uh to see scott yeah um i thought i had the you know pills with me in my pocket and i had more in my bag i didn't need any and that was that was a real sign to me that okay we're on the other side of this yeah but many many more people and more funding you mentioned all the important things i mean get outside fresh air exercise you know eat right definitely smoking you know you should not be smoking at all nobody should Yeah, nobody should.

I mean, there's no, there's no benefit of smoking.

Well, you get a nice little buzz when you take a huff.

I have smoked once in my life a cigarette, sixth grade behind a fence, one puff.

That was the entire Kara swisher, which is why my recent tests were excellent.

I got in trouble in eighth grade, Kara.

I got in trouble for smoking at a party with a bunch of my friends from eighth grade.

They just socially ostracized me for like taking a puff on a cigarette.

I have not had a cigarette.

I don't think I've had a cigarette since then.

Yeah, we're not cigarette people.

The Swishers are not cigarette people.

Well, our dad was.

No, he was.

He smoked.

And my grandma used to go down in the basement and smoke.

But let me ask you last question, a couple last questions.

So COVID aside, monkeypox.

Where are you with monkeypox?

So monkeypox is, you know, it's, I think the name is scarier.

I mean, well, it's a scary thing.

Monkeypox is in the family of what are called orthopox viruses, and it's very similar in a lot of ways to the smallpox virus.

As you know, smallpox was eradicated.

I think the World Health Health Organization declared it eradicated in

1980, and there hasn't been a case since.

But monkeypox is in that class where it was zoonotic viruses.

It's from animals to people, and it developed

in Africa, in the Congo.

There's two different variations or what are called clades of this virus.

And it basically is much more contact-oriented than COVID is.

And so individuals who get it, are usually it's it's often through sexual contact but it's it can be you know kids can get it just from you know touching someone with a lesion.

So the numbers have been alarming in terms of the numbers that have gone up.

So at August, I believe in August of this past year, there was like nine, 10, almost 10,000 cases at the beginning of August.

Now we're looking at almost 20,000 cases, and that's even in a month in this country.

Worldwide, there's something like a little over 50,000 cases as of the end of this month.

So

it's a pox virus.

And so you get adenopathy, very painful swelling of your lymph nodes.

You get flu-like flu-like symptoms.

Often you feel very, very sick,

people who have it.

It's about a four to 10-day incubation period.

In the first phase, it's like the flu-like symptoms.

In the second stage, and you have eruptions of these

tox lesions, which then scab over and eventually, like chickenpox, it goes away.

It's not in the same family as chickenpox.

That's a different class of viruses.

But still, I mean, it's concerning, and there is a vaccine for it.

In fact, there's two vaccines.

One is the the Geneos vaccine and the other is the vaccine that's used for smallpox.

That's called ACAM 2000.

The latter is less common because it has more side effects and it's also investigational for monkeypox.

But the Geneus has been approved by the FDA for this.

But there's limited.

Take that?

No.

Well, there's limited quantities of it.

I think if you're in a high-risk group, you know, people who have frequent sexual partners and things like that.

Yeah, maybe.

And also, you can get post-viral prophylaxis.

If you get it, you can get the vaccine afterwards, and that does afford you some protection and maybe even potentially shortens the problem.

And this is something that'll work its way through the system, presumably.

Yeah, I mean, but it's going to be, it's like all viruses.

It's, it's, it's highly replicative.

Personally, I've seen in my hospital maybe three or four cases of it.

I have not personally taken care of a patient with it, but they'll commonly come in for secondary infections.

All right.

George, any more questions for Dr.

Swisher?

Yeah.

When can I go back to orgies?

Well, you know, as I said on Twitter the other day, I'm personally getting tired of these Zoom orgies.

Tell me about it.

I mean, I might have to go to Twitter circles, you know, just to hold myself over.

I want to just say I was just in San Francisco for a series of tests related to my stroke.

I'm not having a stroke.

I'm just checking up on it.

And Jeff was amazing.

By the way, I have the body of a boring 20-year-old.

That's what I'm saying.

You have a colon of a 20-year-old.

You have a colon of someone who's never done anything fun.

And the same thing with my heart.

My heart has like no plaque, no arterial deterioration.

But let this be a lesson.

Like I was reminded, you just did this to everybody listening in a little public service announcement.

Get checked out.

I have an adult female in my life.

She has never had a breast exam.

I'm like, are you crazy?

That's next.

That's next month.

Right.

Like, just like.

Check yourselves out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anyway, Jeff, thank you so much.

I'll see you soon.

I'll see you at Code next week.

Take care, George.

I hope to see you soon.

I'll see you you at Code next week.

We'll talk soon.

Bye.

All right, George, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

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George, we're back.

Before we get to wins and fails, let's pivot to some listener mail.

You've got, you've got, I can't

This mail comes from Andy.

George, would you mind reading it?

It would be my pleasure.

I'm a huge fan of Pivot, but I'm bothered by Kara and guest hosts' consistent denigration of Scott's character, influence, and worth.

Does the dog really deserve to be treated like so much dog shit?

To be sure, Scott invites a certain amount of criticism with his outsized personality, but this is a man who has chosen to be more vulnerable about his own shortcomings and mental health issues than most public figures.

How about a little praise and generosity for a change?

Andy from Somerville, Massachusetts.

Sincerely.

Sincerely.

Andy, the whole show is about.

teasing Scott.

You do understand that, correct?

I mean, really, it is.

Someone from Vogs one time said, you know, I think Scott's a little offensive.

I don't know if this is going to work.

And I was like, no, that's the point.

Scott is offensive.

I hit him.

He says something amazing.

And then he says something offensive.

And then I hit him again.

I said, that's the show.

We're in.

We're out.

We're done.

We love Scott's vulnerability.

We love him criticizing himself.

We love his outsized personality.

But of course, that opens himself up for criticism and stuff like that, which is the point.

The point is the ability to disagree on a very civil level.

We don't make fun of him.

Like, we don't ridiculously tease him.

We do make fun of going Scott Free August.

It's funny.

So I think it's, I don't, I don't agree with you.

I don't think we do treat him like dog shit.

I think he, he invites that in lots of ways.

And we think he's incredibly prescient.

I think he's very smart about when he's wrong.

He actually then tries to learn from it, which is not many people do.

They just sort of move along from their stupid, stupid statements.

He like examines them.

I love when he talks about his mental health challenges and, you know, the difficulties he's had over the many years with his family or whatever it happens to be or working.

And I love that he shows his emotionality.

You don't see that a lot from a straight guy.

Like you just don't like in terms of how he

processes his very lucky life and at the same time expresses

regrets and he expresses unease and things like that.

And that's, I think it's one of his great strengths.

I don't know.

What about you?

I agree with everything you just said.

I think Scott is like a thinking person's Joe Rogan.

Ah, interesting.

I hope it's just a matter of time before Scott has an audience on that scale because I think he's got so many more worthwhile worthwhile things to say.

And also, on a personal note, in this weird time that I'm in, you know, with this social media notoriety or whatever it is that I've got right now, and every, so many people have said to me, oh, you should have your own show.

You should be working on this.

You should do this.

You should do that.

The only person, and I could actually see myself getting emotional about this, the only person.

who has said to me, you've got something I want or you've got something really good going on.

I want to bring you onto my team and I want to give you a gig and I want to pay you for it nicely because I think you're good at what you do.

The only person who has done that is Scott.

Yep, that's correct.

And

I will, he will always have my gratitude and my loyalty because he is the only one who doesn't just say, oh, you're talented.

He also said, oh, you're talented.

I want you on my team.

And here's a job.

And here's a job.

He's the only one to give me a job.

100%.

I mean, he does pay it forward.

Listen, when when I started Pivot, there were a lot of choices.

And Scott was the only one, really, in lots of ways.

I didn't think about anybody else at the time because I really thought it was important, one, to disagree with civility and funny and be funny about it.

It's always civil.

You guys are like siblings and it's beautiful.

But also to have real disagreements and not agree, whether it's over Dr.

Oz or whatever.

I mean, he gets very touchy about that particular subject, for example.

But we still discuss it.

And that's what's really important.

So I don't think it's treating like dog shit.

I don't think we tease him.

We tease him.

And you're going to have to get used to it.

This is the family we have.

Yeah, he's good for it too.

That's right.

And so one of the things that's important is to be able to tease and also be able to express yourself in a relatively, and I don't say a safe space, but he is able, because it's very public, talking about his shortcomings and his mistakes and when he's hurt.

You know, one of the things that drives me crazy, and let me just say, he gets like a lot of shit for some really assholes in Silicon Valley, like a lot.

If you don't think I go after them rather significantly for doing that, because it's such ridiculous bullshit, because they themselves make mistakes all the time.

They themselves have lots of problems and never would admit it.

And I think that's why he's much more powerful than in the end.

So I don't agree with you.

I don't think we do.

I think we tease him.

And by the way, we're going to keep teasing him for all kinds of things.

And he deserves it, every single fucking bit of it.

If you've got a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way.

Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

Okay, George, let's hear some wins and fails.

Let's talk about a fail first because I want to end on a high note.

I would say the fail, Sarah Palin.

Like in general, I would say the Republicans and the stupidity that she enabled and ushered in as the VP candidate in 2008, like

she made it okay, like she made stupid okay.

And I think, in some weird way,

she

is kind of the

validation of her stupidity

enabled the possibility of Trump.

Yeah, she was the first.

Well, there's been others.

Newt Gingrich really started.

She is the patron saint of our Marjorie Taylor Greens and our Lauren Boeberts and our Jim Jordans.

And she lost.

And that really turns me on.

I'm really happy she failed.

It was still closer than I'd want it to be, but this has been a state that's been Republican forever.

They put this ranked choice voting in in order to stop Lisa Markowski.

The Trump people did put it in, and now they're complaining about it.

They're the ones that put in this voting, which caused her to lose because people voted for this very progressive woman who's fascinating, who seems very into fish, by the way, which I think is important to Alaska.

And so they had a very decent candidate who's a very typical Republican, who Sarah Palin beat, which means the dumbs, you know, have enough people to get her there.

And that's, we'll see if it happens across the country.

If this is the case where Sarah Palin-like characters in lots of state Senate races lose.

Yeah.

Herschel Walker.

In a way, I would like to see if the entire GOP is in a bit of a fail spiral that has yet to manifest.

It's starting with Kansas, and then we've got this very, like a Democrat in Alaska.

Yeah.

Yep.

And a woman, like,

you know, maybe this is a sign.

So we'll see.

She is concerned with fish.

I think that's what put her over the top.

Anyway, I will second for my fail, and then we'll go into wins, is this there's a new report out, the National Assessment Educational Project, which is the nation's report card.

Math scores dropped seven points since the start of the pandemic, marking the first ever decline, while reading scores slipped five points.

It's the largest dip in 30 years because of that.

It's not we're trying to be done, but the pandemic, along with people like Sarah Balion and stuff like that, has created a real deficit in learning.

So it's something we have to get back to.

Smart should be sexy again.

Smart is sexy.

Smart is sexy, but we should really think hard about becoming stupider

and not do not do so.

Don't you think, like, I'm not really on board with this notion of I want my leaders to be someone I can have a beer with.

I want my leaders to make

to give me something to which to aspire.

Right, right.

This is two decades of progress in math and reading, which is really because kids aren't in schools.

They were testing nine-year-old school children.

The basics are not there and we have to, if we're going to compete worldwide, it has to happen.

All right.

What's your plus?

I'm not saying this is an endorsement that I want him to run again or something, but Joe Biden, you know, Papa Joe's on a roll here.

And we've had some nice wins here.

This is a nice streak.

This is sexy.

And this is stuff to brag about.

This is stuff to, if that's one thing Democrats are not good at, it's just

let's all get on the same page here.

Let's brag about this.

Yeah.

And also in your face.

Speaking of a bunch of in your face.

I'm loving the new White House Twitter person.

She's from New Jersey, the person who's doing it.

Delicious.

Yeah.

She's very famous.

That is gorgeous Twitter.

Yeah, it is.

Whether it matters or not, I don't know, but I like it.

It's a point of view.

It's a good look.

That's a very good one.

My win is a nuclear inspectors arriving at the plant in Ukraine.

I can't believe they've gotten this close with a nuclear facility that they're doing shelling all around this area.

It's a real, it's a danger to the whole world.

And so I'm glad these inspectors are there and what a job they have to do because this is an embattled nuclear plant, which shouldn't, those words should not ever go together.

They braved intensified shelling.

They're in danger and they're crossing front lines and they need to.

This is critical.

Russia is playing games like this is just ridiculous, ridiculous.

Just ridiculous.

So they have to guard nuclear safety.

And so the International Atomic Energy Agency is there working on it.

So thank God for that.

That's what I would say.

Nice.

That was me, my plus.

Yeah, that's my win.

But my win really is you, George, as always.

Kara, you're my win.

And by the way, for people, for people who say, you know, people often say, oh, you know, Kara, she's not a hugger.

She's, you know, she's a little tough.

Not in my experience.

Well, that's because you're George Hahn.

Why wouldn't I not hug you?

Right.

You're very huggable.

If you're huggable, I hug you.

If you're not, I really, really don't.

All right.

That's the show.

Scott will be back with us next week in one week.

We're spending Labor Day getting ready for code, which is just an astonishing group of people coming.

So Tuesday, you'll get a special episode of Land of the Giants from our friends over at Recode and the Verge.

This season is covering Facebook's journey to becoming meta.

George, would you do the honors and read us out?

Be delighted.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin.

Ben Woods engineered this episode.

Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back on Friday for another breakdown of all things tech and business from code.