Everyone’s Favorite Legal Battle, and So Much Inflation

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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway.
How are you doing, Scott? How was your your weekend?

My weekend. What is it? It's Thursday.
Yeah. I mean, you're...
Are you on the meth again?

I'm on the meth again. I've been traveling.
That's why I've been traveling. Oh, yeah.
Los Angeles.

You went to San Francisco? Is that all right? And Los Angeles, yes. How was it?

Good. I love San Francisco.
It was great. And Los Angeles was lovely.

I'm doing a head-to-body health check. And I was meeting a very well-known doctor there to talk about that, all the various things they're going to poke and prod me with.
It's very good.

Are you doing one of those full-body kind of health things? That's what I used to go play golf or do stupid shit with my buddies.

Now we go have different devices shoved in every orifice and they tell us that we're, oh, you have, you have the prostate of a 44-year-old. And we all brag about it over dinner.
Oh, good.

Well, I'm going to get the whole thing because, you know, I had that stroke several years ago. So I decided I can't die anytime soon, largely because of you, but also my many children.

And so it's interesting.

I may do one of, I have several book contracts, and I may do one of them on the efforts by tech to keep people alive, like longer, which is, you know,

more hell on earth, essentially. Anyway, it's interesting.
It was interesting.

There's all kinds of changes in the past 10 years of all kinds of monitoring, but the healthcare system, as you know, still sucks in a lot of ways.

But this is an interesting, it was an interesting first meeting. We'll see how it goes.
We'll see how it goes. I'll keep you updated on my health.
That's great.

I'm going to have an entire 360 of my heart. You know, I have that hole in my heart, as you know.

And so I'm going to have this 360 Siemens thing that is the latest and greatest, which will be interesting.

And most people cannot avail themselves of this, but I'm going to write about it and obviously pay for it myself. But

it's really going to be interesting, I think, to find out what's inside Kara Swisher's heart and brain. Well, yeah, I think, I think we've all been trying to figure that out for a very long time.

Anyway, we'll see. Anyway, today we'll talk about the latest inflation numbers and whether or not we're headed into recession.

The jobs report was different than the inflation report, which was very high and the jobs was very good, actually. We'll, of course, get the latest on Twitter versus Musk.

Scott's been doing his homework on that. He's been reading some legal briefs.
We'll take a listener question from a recent college grad about the economy.

But first, crypto lender Celsius has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy last month that froze withdrawals from customers.

One of the company's former money managers filed a lawsuit against Celsius for being a Ponzi scheme. This is becoming a trend in crypto.

Just days ago, crypto hedge fund three arrows also filed for bankruptcy, and now its liquidators say they can't find the founders.

These are people that were all touted at all these conferences, which we did not do.

But talk about what it means for the bigger crypto market, would you say? Again, this is part of the same thing, but the inevitable continuing fall. Well, you have just a massive amount.

You have basically delevering. And Celsius was a company where they convinced people, they said, okay, I can give you an 18% APR if you give us your crypto to then lend out.

And they would lever up, borrow more money against that crypto. Warren Buffett said it best that leverage is how smart people do dumb things.

And when everything's going up, and they wouldn't give you 18% cash back, they would give you

Celsius coin,

which was obviously very tenuous in terms of its own value. And then

when people got panicked, they don't need to pull out all their money.

They just need to pull out a fraction of their money because it's so levered that it creates, you know, your veritable run on the bank.

And And the thing about this, because it's not regulated, because these deposits are not insured, it's not,

I'll say, I'll go this far, it's likely that if you put a thousand bucks into Celsius, you're now in line with a bunch of creditors and you may have to wait years to get pennies on the dollar back.

Pennies on the dollar. Yeah.
So this is, this is,

and there's just no doubt about it.

All of these things coming out, and there's probably more to come, taint the entire sector. Yeah,

it feels very made-off-y, off-y, right? It feels very madeoffy in the whole sense of it.

And the second part is that, you know, Sam, people are trying to recover the more credible companies here, like Sam Bankman Fried thought about buying Celsius and then walked away because of the debt as he started to unpeel this particular rotten onion.

It's kind of an interesting situation because there are credible companies in here, but they're going to suffer along with it.

Well, and there's this is one of the many kind of, I think, unfortunate zeitgeist or gestalts that comes out of the valley.

And that is just for the last couple of years, it's been all these very super smart people who would speak in terms that we didn't understand, which meant that they were smart and they would bully anybody who dared ask questions about how you can give 18%

interest on money. You know, you start asking questions and it immediately outed you as a boomer who didn't get it.

And also, their general view was regulation and the government were nothing but shackles on these innovative geniuses. Yeah, I heard it all.

And now it ends up that regulation or a lack of regulation is going to cost a lot of retail investors tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah, and where'd the money go? And the people,

the naysayers who say it's all a scam are having, you know, are having their moment.

I would argue, there's just so much money and so much human capital has been trying to figure out how to use the blockchain that it's, I think, naive to think there isn't going to be enduring innovation here.

But when you look back, you know, whether the CEO of Celsius used to show up to conferences and say, banks are not your friend. It felt very Travis Kalanik, right?

And so, you know, he did that with taxi companies. He did that at one of my events.
I remember. And, you know, they're the enemy.
And they have to create that. We're better.
We're different.

They're screwing you. And of course, guess who got screwed, which is interesting.
Well, we'll see where it goes.

But it's really, you know, some people think crypto's Bitcoin, for example, which is the one you point to as being the most survivable, is going to go down to 10,000, not up to 30, as people had thought.

But, you know, we'll have to wait wait and see.

This has been a big black eye, much different than compared to the last time it declined because there's all these bankruptcies, people losing money, losing their shirts and stuff like that.

And then the question is: who benefits? I think there's going to be a lot of not regulation, but legal action here, all kinds of ways.

I'd be shocked if amongst these companies, I mean, you have another fund, right? This Arrowfund where the founders disappeared and then reappeared. I mean, it's really, it all feels very, very ugly.

And then when you talk about Celsius, you want to talk about about who loses here. Celsius had, get this, Kara, 1.7 million customers.
So the population of San Francisco is, what, 850,000 people?

So imagine two San Francisco's and every person is now waking up going, oh, well, that's money I'll never see again. Need again.
And some of it's substantive.

And they were hoping there was all this parties. And we wrote about that in the very early days about

parties and this and that, all kinds of stuff around Bitcoin. But, you know, it is tarnishing the larger market, which is really the problem.
You know who it also hurts? I mean,

there's always these knock-on effects. You know, who this kind of

does kind of hurt? Is Miami. Miami.
Because Miami's kind of... It's not perfect.
Miami's linked to the tech. Miami was trying to be a tech hub or claiming it was a tech hub.

Bitcoin was the way they were. Crypto was the way they were.
Exactly. And the reality is there's been more venture money invested in Philadelphia and D.C.
than Miami.

And my thesis all along, and I get pushed back on this because it sounds like I'm being critical of some of the colleges in Florida, every major tech hub involves one thing, and that is a world-class engineering university.

And unfortunately, in Florida, we don't have that. And so it's hard to build sustainability.

There are a lot of great entrepreneurs in Miami, but they're usually in the restaurant or the services or the hospitality business.

And just because some VCs move there to recognize a gain at a lower tax rate does not make a tech hub. And so they said, okay, but what if we become known for?

And they had a great spokesperson, Amir Suarez, who's thoughtful, likable, innovative. And they went kind of went went all in on crypto because that was the fastest way to scale up.

So they had their event down there. Yeah, that was the fastest way to kind of scale up their notion that they were a tech hub.

And so all of a sudden, Miami and being kind of epicenter for crypto is not a good look right now. No, neither is a lot of the Bills with and DeSantis, of course, you know,

performing for the cheap seats in Iowa. Anyway, we'll see where it goes.

I just, you know, when anytime anybody goes on and on and then has to trash where they came from, I've always thought that was incredibly lacked class and also seemed desperate on some level.

Anyway, speaking of California, Governor Newsom continues to be super aggressive, signed a bill this week that allows victims of gun violence to be able to sue gun manufacturers.

We'll see what happens in the courts, but companies could face lawsuits if their products are, quote, abnormally dangerous or end up in the hands of people prohibited from owning firearms.

Newsom is also expected to sign another bill, which would allow residents to sue people or companies that distribute assault weapons.

You know, he's, there's going to be legal challenges to this, but he's going for it like he did with gay marriage, which is he was the one who was super aggressive. It's kind of his old playbook.

He lost several times and then he won, right? Ultimately, or California did initially was the real. pusher of this of the gay of the gay marriage bills.

But gun makers already lost their first challenge to a similar law in New York. The legislation follows

his ads where he was inviting people in Florida to move to California.

And it's just more presidential campaigning, it feels like, but at the same time, it's interesting in its aggression and

focus on certain things. He's sort of doubling down on a look for the Democratic Party.

I think Ron DeSantis and Gavin Newsome have already are trying to say to the world, we're the Democratic and or the Republican and the Democratic nominees for president 2024, and they're already running against each other.

And just as, so I like this. And so I think of this as good policy.

But to be objective, you know, I often criticize Ron DeSantis for posing for white evangelical Christian voters with a straw on their hand in Iowa. This is a little,

I don't understand my understanding of gun laws, or I should say my lack of understanding, so I'll come to a quick thesis here, is that much of what he's proposing here will not hold up in court because gun rights are

pretty strong.

for better, for worse. I'm not saying I agree with that.
So I think a lot of what he's doing right now is signaling his viewpoint and trying to establish leadership around

democratic issues. But this is the thing I found fascinating about this.
I think both DeSantis and Newsome, to their kind of credit strategically, are slowly but surely communicating to the nation.

And it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that we are the nominees for our party and we represent our party. So I think Newsome, I think Newsom has been a huge winner the last 15 or 20 days.

Right. Yeah.
He's got to, his vulnerabilities.

DeSantis's are around all these social issues where he's really over, uh, he hasn't said a lot on abortion, actually.

It was a really interesting story, either in the Times or the Post, that he's being very quiet about it because he doesn't, he knows the center does not like this particular thing.

And he's also trying to hold on to the evangelicals. Newsom, of course, is going the opposite way, signaling all kinds of things.
And

it'll be interesting.

The negative on Newsom

is homelessness in California, you know,

and crime. And that's the two things.
So, you know, shitty social behaviors are DeSantis' weak part and crime and

not the economy. The economy of California is doing great, actually.

So we'll see where that goes. It's actually doing terrific.
He's giving, sending people money.

I wish I was still a taxpayer there. Actually, I think DeSantis' weakness is that people don't know him.

They know his issues and they know, and people look at Florida and think they were smart around the pandemic, letting people get on with their lives.

A lot of people in the far right like his positioning, his weakness is Achilles' heel, and there's very little you can do about this. He's not likable.

And the party doesn't, people in the party don't, other people don't like him among the among the Republicans. Well, insiders and voters.

He's you listen to the guy speak, and you just think, this guy's kind of a kind of a jerk. And every president, probably since Nixon in their own way,

is likable or funny.

Dan Nixon.

I think that was one of his downfalls. He wasn't likable, right? His first time out against Kennedy.

It's hugely important.

Anyways,

it's a little Kennedy

versus Nixon because Newsom just

is compelling as a figure. He is compelling as a figure.
He suffers a little bit from what I'll call the Vice President Harris.

After speaking to him for 10 minutes, you just, you kind of feel a little deflated.

He's not as bad as Vice President Harris, but he, after you listen to him speak, you, you wonder, okay, what moisturizer does he use? But you don't feel like inspired by a movement.

I would agree, but I think what he did around gay marriage was nothing short of a miracle and courageous.

People, he's too, the reason he doesn't get sort of the courageous thing is because he's so handsome. But we'll see where it goes.

Anyway, also, lastly, the latest in the January 6th hearings, compelling, compelling from a branding perspective.

The committee is expected to hold its next and final hearing on July 21st in in primetime.

So much has happened at Tuesday's hearings, a lot of focus on Trump tweet that mobilized the crowd where he wrote big protests in D.C. on January 6th.
Be there, we'll be wild.

Of course, it followed this crazy meeting at the White House where crazy people got in and the other people tried to keep them out and like chase them out and had screaming matches.

A former Twitter employee, by the way, speaking of tech, this is the first time tech was really mentioned, told the January 6th committee that he tried in vain to sound the alarm on Trump's tweets and explained why he thinks the company didn't take sufficient action.

Let's play a clip. Keep in mind the speaker's voice voice was altered to protect his anonymity.

I believe the Twitter relished in

the knowledge that they were also the

favorite and most used service of

the former president and enjoyed having

that sort of power within the social media ecosystem. Liz Cheney says Trump tried to contact also as yet unseen witness and warned again about witness tampering.
Seems like he can't help himself.

We'll talk more about Twitter later on the show, of course. But again, these hearings continue to be the best watching of the summer.

They're doing a really good job by rolling things out and connecting the dots and making a narrative. It's better than White Lotus, for example.

Yeah, I do think, though, at some point, I think the two of us probably find it more compelling than most of America.

And I think they've done a great job so far, but I would argue they need to bring it to a close. And I think Merrick Garland has to decide whether he's going to issue an indictment.

And it's time, it's time to decide.

And what usually gets criminals, and I do think there's criminal activity here, is little stupid stuff like calling a witness and not recognizing that that's tampering with a witness, that that is very much.

Which is also happening in Georgia, that there's also a Georgia thing happening. And they have it on tape with him.
I think the nation, the Department of Justice, the media have all heard both sides.

It's time for the sheriff to decide if he's, you know, if we're going to indict this guy or not. I think the majority of America is going to get fatigued by this at some point.

And they've handled it well. It's been compelling.
They should bring it to a close and then decide whether we're going to indict this individual. Yeah, that's what they're doing.

I think it has had some effect. I can tell you, all my conservative friends and family are like, whoa,

like a lot of them. And they were not.
They were like, what's wrong with Trump? And recently, it's like, man, what an idiot. Like kind of, what a crazy person.
We can't have him back there.

And they're, of course, moving to other Republicans, but they're definitely,

they've had it with Trump, I think, in a lot of ways. So, and you can see that in the polling.

You can see that in the polling over and over again. And we'll see.
He certainly has a way of bouncing back, but he certainly looks like a criminal in this. And we'll see where it goes.

Definitely, Mark Meadows looks like he's going to jail at some point.

Okay, let's get to our first big story.

Inflation, which is at its highest peak in 41 years, which everybody is paying attention to. The consumer price index is up 9.1% since June of last year.

The biggest biggest pain points are food and energy costs, also used cars and things like that. Groceries are up 12% on the year.
Energy prices are up 41% annually.

I mean, it is really, I just bought some plane tickets and I was, whoa, like it was really kind of a different price. And I think everybody's feeling it and talking about it.

It's eased off since then from what I understand, but

we'll see if the Fed will resort to bigger rate increases. Last month, it raised interest rates by 0.75%.
It's expected to raise another 0.75% later this month.

So investors think that could go as high as 1%.

The rate increases don't necessarily seem to be working because we're at the

jobs report was very strong. Wondering if we're peak inflation or could go higher.
Other countries certainly have. And lastly, President Biden

called the inflation data, quote, unacceptably high and pointed to the fact that these were numbers, like last month's data, they're trending down now.

There's all kinds of stuff going on, but it's still topic A, and it may wane as things get better. But the average price of gas now is $4.63 compared to $478 a week ago and $501 a month ago.

So what do you think, Scott? How's this narrative playing out? Well, so first you have to acknowledge that inflation,

it would be unfair to hold Biden accountable because inflation is a global issue. I don't care if it's Turkey, Russia, prices are up 15%.
Europe has experienced the same inflation. But the U.S.

is so global as a country. But go ahead.
Well, and not only that, the U.S. doesn't really give a shit what's happening elsewhere.

Americans are like, all I know is, and we've entered the point of, if you look at when governments are overthrown, they're overthrown for a variety of reasons. They see the leader as corrupt.

They kick out the, you know, the Shavaran, or they think that this person doesn't reflect the religious values, or they think that this person is persecuting or

ends up persecuting the wrong people, and there's a revolution against that person.

But probably number one or number two, in terms of when people start getting very angry, as we see in Sri Lanka, is inflation.

Now, inflation on its own sounds pretty benign, but this is what's happening. And wages are either flat to down while everything else is accelerating.

The very basic premise is your quality of life diminishes drastically.

So, and I realize this is going to be a story of privilege.

Each summer we rent a house in Colorado, and the people we rent the house from came back to us and said, Do you want to reserve it for next year? And we said, Yes, we'd like that.

And they said, Okay, here's the price. They're increasing the price 80%.

And it's the same house. And

BankOps hasn't increased our compensation 80%, which means my quality of life is going down. Now, imagine that on a more substantive real level.

Yes, I get that. Yes.
Okay. We're going to take it down to a real level, do buying milk and stuff.

But when people can't afford to buy, you know, to have, to have meat, when people can't afford to fill up their tank, when people are like, we can't afford to take the kids to Disney, we can't afford a vacation this year.

They hold the current administration accountable.

And it's become,

I do think there's evidence that it is coming down. Energy prices are coming down.
There's layoffs.

The consumer price confidence indicator is showing that consumers are buttoning up or getting more hesitant to spend money. They're ripping through their savings.

And Jerome Pyle's hero is Paul Volcker, who took a lot of shit by increasing interest rates. And what you're probably going to see here is an unprecedented hike in interest rates of 100 basis points.

But, you know, economic activity, I tell you, all over California, everywhere. Everyone was out.
People are spending. The airports were jammed.
You know,

London's airport, good luck living there. It's crazy.
They're gating tickets. They're not selling tickets anymore because they don't have enough people working.

But nonetheless, adjusted for inflation is workers' hourly wages fell 1% during the month and are down 3.6% from a year ago, which is a significant amount of money that you're paying more for the things you're buying.

Let me ask you just to,

what would be the thing Biden should do? Saying they're unacceptably high is the right thing. Saying it's all over the world, I don't think is the right thing.
It doesn't really matter to Americans.

What do you imagine is the best messaging here for an administration? Because people, even if Biden doesn't have a lot of ability to do anything about it, he's blamed for it.

It sucks to be a grown-up. We had a 13-year party.
The last administration flooded the market, overdid it with stimulus, was irresponsible. And I'm the grown-up here.

My legacy is to do what's right for future generations. And we're going to raise interest rates and we're going to make difficult decisions.
And that's what leadership is.

And I apologize, folks, but looking back on this, you're going to realize we made the hard decisions that the last administration wasn't willing to make.

And we're going to get this under control. And then point to evidence that they are getting it under control.
I think, Jerome Powell, they are raising interest rates.

Do you realize a mortgage has gone from a 30-year mortgage has gone from 3% to 6% in the last 20 years? I'm aware I got a mortgage when it was three, and I'm very thrilled I did.

I have to say, I feel like I

missed that kind of thing. Yes, it's crazy.

And then do what he's doing. I mean, people don't notice it.
We've kissed and made up with Venezuela. I mean, he's in Saudi Arabia saying

I'm going to ignore him. I'm just going to kind of look the other way on a lot of very.
Fist bumping. He's not supposed to touch anyone because of the COVID.

He's fist bumping. But he's basically trying to open up the supply and the spigot of oil such that energy costs come down.
But there's no, there's no elegant way out of this. Yeah, yep, yep.

And also there's still the war in Ukraine is continuing to grind on new coronavirus variants. Lockdowns in China all play a role.

Continuing. Every single, I did some work at my house in San Francisco.
Every single person, workman I talked to is like supply chain.

They can't get things, whether it's toilet parts or various things. And

they said it's easing up, it isn't eased up, which is interesting. So I agree with you.
I think the adult way to go, it's not going to be politically palatable, unfortunately.

Anyone who's going to say, I'm going to give you pretty candy later is going to win.

Well, here's the scary part is that he'll probably end up, as we get closer to the midterms or the election, having to pull a Newsom. So Newsom, and I want to be an equal opportunity

criticizer here.

Newsom decided to, he had the Inflation Relief Act, and he's sending a check to anyone, any household in California that makes less than $500,000 because they have its surplus mostly because of the stock market acceleration and capital gains.

That is absolutely the wrong thing to do to get inflation under control.

And what you're probably going to see is political pressure if the economy continues, if the economy starts going to a tailspin, you're probably going to see political pressure to start the printing presses again.

So, one of the problems with our government and one of the advantages a place like China has on us, or even I think, European countries, we just don't think long term

because people don't, you know, people don't want to. In America, we've been told, oh, wait, as long as the market's going up, you get rich, isn't it great? Oh, the market goes down.

Well, we'll bail you out because this event is a once-in-a-lifetime event. No, it's not.
The market goes down a lot.

And I think Americans as a whole have become, well, you know, Daddy, I want an oompa loompa.

It's just, I don't think Americans, I think we've become somewhat that is a reference to Willy Wonka, everybody. You like that, right? Yeah, I do.

Anyways, Doompity-Doo. There we go.

Doompity-doo. Daruka.

Daddy. How much? Which one? How much?

Which one of those kids are you?

On that?

You're not Charlie. I'm definitely Charlie.
I'm Charlie's dad. I'm Charlie's dad.
Okay. No, his grandfather.
Remember how his grandfather? That was a sweet character. Grandpa Jack.

Grandpa Jack. I love that relationship.
Yeah, that was good. In all the movies, I don't like the newest one.
I like the old one with Gene Wilder, not the Johnny Depp one.

I don't like the Johnny Depp one. I find him pretty much.
So you don't shit in Johnny Depp's bed when you're talking about Willy Wonka.

Yeah, I love Gene Wilder was so charming in that role. Anyway, all right, so this is where we are.
We're going to go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about the latest with Twitter versus Elon by Judge Advocate General Scott Galloway, and we'll take a listener mail question about the job market.

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Scott, we're back with our second big story. Everyone's favorite legal batter, Twitter versus Elon Musk.
Now, you insisted we talk about this, even though I'm fine to talk about this. It's great.

The two are headed to a showdown in Delaware Chancery Court after Twitter filed this lawsuit Tuesday, arguing that Musk is contractually obligated to buy the company.

Let me quickly recap what the arguments are, and then I'd love your thoughts on this.

Musk's lawyers are basically saying he doesn't have to go through with the deal because Twitter withheld information about the number of spam accounts on the platform.

Twitter is saying that that's false and Musk has wreaked habit on the business and damaged the share price. They're also accusing him of violating an NDA by publicly insulting the company.

And as evidence, they have apparently provided a screenshot when Musk tweeted a poop emoji at CEO Paraguay.

Oh my God. So

let's let's, I think they're being super aggressive to settle. Their legal counsel is asking for a four-day trial in September.
They initially agreed to complete the sale by October 24th.

What do you let me hear your thing? Let me hear your thing. So I have spent the better part of the last two days on the phone with litigation attorneys and also

an attorney who specializes in the Delaware Chancery Court. And there's just some myths being promulgated by his sycophants and stenographers.

But essentially, the narrative here, there's just a lot of myths that are not going to come to fruition. The first is this notion that the bots is a legitimate argument.

The Twitter complaint summarizes it perfectly. This is his argument here as a lesson in hypocrisy.

There are text messages to the chairman of the company saying, I'm going to help clean up the bot problem. And then he made a request for information.
They gave him the fire hose.

He now has as much data on user activity as Twitter does. And he's been unable.
to figure out a way to present an argument that there's more than 5%.

Even if he can, he has to show a material adverse event, which he can't because a lot of people would argue the bots, at the continuing existence of the bots actually increases their revenues.

And then there's this information request, which is so ridiculous and so overdone that they'll be able to punch holes in it as they do in the argument.

But the myths that really are ridiculous is one, this is going to be a long, drawn-out battle. The Delaware Chancery Court

is built for speed.

They have a chancellor and six vice chancellors. Basically, that's their language, their names for judges.

They don't have juries.

They usually don't even allow opening arguments they just go straight to the evidence and then the the the judge makes a decision and they they've already they've already asked them to fast track this this likely will happen in early september the chancellors are all former gangster uh corporate litigators They are not intimidated.

They are not on Twitter. They don't give a shit if he starts shit posting and posting memes about him.
And look what's happened in the market. So

if you look at the stock price when he started acquiring shares, it was 32 bucks a share. Since then, the peer groups, specifically Meta and Snap, are down 10 and 50% respectively.

The natural level of Twitter stock should be around 22 or 23 bucks a share, but it's not. It's around 35 or 36 bucks.
And this is why I care. I believe the stock is 60% higher than it should be.

Do people believe he wants to buy this thing? No. Do people believe the underlying business has gotten stronger? No.

This is what you have when you are a shareholder of Twitter that owns a share in Twitter. You have the rights to one 900 millionth of the company and its cash flows.
But more than that, you now have

the rights and the legal obligation of the richest man in the world to pay you $54.20.

And the market is saying, based on their analysis of this case, that he is going to have to pay every shareholder $54.20.

Or

some approximation. Now, let me ask you a question because this was raised by two smart people, Matt Levine and also Bill Cohen, in their columns, is what if he doesn't behave?

What if he gets ruled against and then refuses to comply? Well, this is what will happen.

This guy could do this, right? This guy does things like this. I just don't think that's true.
One, if he can repeal once to the Delaware Supreme Court, that will take,

they will hear the court, the Delaware Supreme Court, within two weeks. So the notion that's going to drag on for years just isn't true.
I'm not talking about dragging on.

It's true. Delaware Chancery does not have a a jail cell, but they can compel people.
They can compel authorities to put people in prison. In addition, they have a lot of tools at their disposal.

They are where SpaceX, Boring Company,

Neuralink are all incorporated. They could issue an order that he has to begin selling shares in any company that is incorporated in Delaware.
They absolutely have the power to compel him.

In addition, every regulator, every senator is going to go: if people

start ignoring court decisions, then who's going to ever do anything a court tells them to do? So this mythology that he should settle. He should settle.

Well, this is likely what will happen in short order. And by the way, something I did mention that's worth mentioning.

The characters and the size of this case are novel, but the argument itself is plain vanilla. This is a contractual dispute of which there are multiple similar precedents set in court cases.

For example, recently Kohlberg and Company, a private equity firm, decided after signing an agreement to buy a cake decorations company for $550 million, the market changed and they're like, fuck, we paid too much.

We'd rather not do the deal. What arguments did they make? They haven't provided the information we requested and we lost our financing.
And the chancellor goes.

Which they force lost their, they did it on purpose. They made it go away.
That's right. And the chancellor said, your information requests are not sincere.

They're tripwires, looking for a false excuse because you went out of the deal. Bullshit.
I'm putting that aside.

And you went back to your financial sources who made a commitment and demanded unreasonable terms in a scripted attempt to get them to back away such that you could use another hollow excuse.

Sorry, guys. I compel you to show up and close the deal.

Their arguments make Elon's arguments look credible

and the chancery court ruled against them.

It's going to be a bad, bad summary.

If the board were to settle right now, they would be liable and open to shareholder lawsuits because shareholders could say, wait, you have given up my ironclad contract to get $54.20 from the wealthiest man in the world?

You can't do that. So what could happen here is if stock goes below $27 a share, this agreement with Musk is now worth more than the entire company.
That's correct.

It's like owning the wait when Yahoo owned Alibaba many years ago.

Or when MicroStrategy owns Bitcoin. That's exactly the right analogy.
Yep.

Interestingly, two things before we get, just so you know, Twitter gave Musk more than 49 trillion bytes worth of data in response to their quest for information.

According to Twitter, its executives offered meetings with Musk to discuss spam accounts, but Musk failed to attend them.

Twitter claims Musk willingly offered and agreed to terms that were seller-friendly.

They're really putting it on. They have really good lawyers here.
Now, let me just switch very quickly to another person he's warring with, which is Donald Trump,

who he somewhat embraced. He certainly embraced the right.
Last week, Trump called Elon a bullshit artist, as we discussed.

And on Monday, Elon tweeted that who Elon Who Should Shut Up tweeted that Trump should, quote, hang up his hat and sail into the sunset.

On Tuesday, Trump fired back at Elon on True Social, blasting his, quote, electric cars that don't drive long enough, driverless cars that crash, and rocket ships to nowhere, adding Elon should focus on getting out of his Twitter mess.

Now, I saw a lot of Elon's fans and reasonable fans in California this week, and they don't recognize this Elon. They still adore him and think he's brilliant, but they're sort of perplexed by this.

And say when you, you know, and I have had this experience, when you meet him, he's not this much of an asshole, essentially.

So it's kind of interesting that he's all picking a fight with Trump again.

I don't think it matters, but it certainly takes the sheen off that idea that he was moving to the right because he certainly, you know, he said DeSantis was his favorite candidate, but nonetheless, it's an interesting, not a good thing for him to have Trump yelling at him, too.

He's got still the existing poster child and number one kind of advocate and leader of the Republican Party shitposting him.

He's pissed off the far left by saying the Democrats, the Democratic Party, I think he used the word has become hateful. I mean, he's like, he's he's sort of pissing off everybody.
And

something, and this is anecdotal evidence, it's pulse marketing, but I do think there's some illumination or insight here.

So whenever I would post, so I posted the screenshot of him blocking me and I made a bunch of snarky comments and I got 22,000 likes and a lot of people weighed in and said, Scott, you're so small as they usually do and you're just jealous of them.

But the ratio when I track all this stuff of positive supportive comments was about 90, 95% to 10 or 5% negative.

Until this point, whenever I pointed out anything negative about Tesla or that it was overvalued or that no one else would get away with this shit, it was flipped the other way and people coming after me.

Well, people are bots, right? Well, no, but the sentiment, in addition, the sentiment has changed here.

I think public sentiment on

Musk has jumped. Trump and Musk, actually, which is interesting.
I think that's right. Yeah, we'll see where it goes.
Anyway,

we will see. Maybe

we will have more to know, but I think Twitter is probably playing it quite correctly here to see what they can get out of him.

I still think I'm going with the settlement because I think that you never know what this guy's going to do. That's the thing.

And I think when you have like a feral cat, you back away slowly and get what you can out of it.

But let's talk about that. Just say the Chancery Court, as I predict they will, will find in favor of Twitter and say he owes them $54.20 per share.
Then

the question is then what? Because Twitter board and Musk are both going to go, I don't want to own this. You don't want me to own it.
And they're going to go, okay, the stock's trading at 30.

You owe us

24.20.

And as the case moves through, through the Python here and it becomes more obvious that he's going to have to illegally owe this, they're going to come to a settlement that will be a significant chunk of change.

Yeah. Probably giving back his shares to somehow selling back his shares in some fashion.
Or use that as a form of payment.

Desist. Yeah.
Desist.

You know, never buy again. Go away.

Never darken our doorstep. Something like that.
Although he doesn't, who knows if he has to, he'd litigate that too, I get. Anyway, we'll see where it goes.
It's very interesting.

He's not on the winning side here.

And as much as people try to posit, oh, we know he does too, that, oh,

I've gotten them.

It's a desperation move on his part to do those silly memes. Anyway, we'll see if he blocks me for that one.
Okay, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question.

You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman.

You've got mail.

The question comes from Millie via email. I'll read it.
Hi, Kara and Scott. I'm currently a college student at UC Berkeley, set set to graduate in 2024.

And many of my peers, myself included, are growing nervous about the current economic climate. I've heard stories of new graduates unable to find work in recessions of the early 2000s and 2008.

I'm worried that the same thing will happen for college grads now. My question is: Do you think finding work after graduate will be difficult in this recession, or are they worried for nothing?

I love the podcast and appreciate all the work you do. The level of insight you provide about business and tech is unmatched.
Thank you, Millie.

Scott, should she be worried?

No. College grads from the majority of colleges in the United States,

if we do go into a recession and there's a chill, they should be worried.

You know what? Here's the thing. Stoicism teaches you to be worried about the shit you can control and not worried about the things you can't control.
And you can't control this.

In addition, as a graduate of Berkeley, which is the finest public school in the nation, she should not be worried.

What this means for her is that she'll likely have three job offers, not five. And that is Berkeley has,

first off, my favorite statistic about Berkeley is the following.

Berkeley each year graduates more kids from low-income households than the entire Ivy League combined and guess what employers love it they're like okay you know what Berkeley is Berkeley is kids is like kids from Stanford who are super impressive but they're more diverse and they're from lower income homes we like that it is staggering the demand for Berkeley grads among corporate America if if it gets cut in half She's only going to get two job offers.

So one, college grads, some of them should probably, they shouldn't even worry because they can't control it.

And two, the last person in the world that should be worrying about gainful employment is going to be a graduate of the greatest public school in America and the tip of the spear of what's wonderful about America.

And unfortunately, unfortunately, there's some nuance here.

Our higher education system has become an enforcer of the caste system, where there is a big difference between the weight class economically and the life you get to lead when you graduate from Berkeley versus when you graduate from another no-name college that still charges you as much or more.

But coming out of Berkeley, oh, it is good to be you. I'm not worried.
It is good to be you. Yeah, what are they? What are they?

The bears? Bears. They're the bears.
Yes. The California bears.
The California Golden Bears. Golden Bears.
Golden Bear.

Much different than the UCLA Bruins. A different breed, a different species of bear.

I would agree with you. I think

it's interesting because

there's also other jobs for people. Like, I suspect Louis will work in hospitality and stuff when he graduates at some point.
I think he'll have a million jobs.

I think plumbers and electricians and all kinds of jobs. There's not enough

building trades and things like that. We'll see where that goes.
But

definitely, you're not, you're going to have slight, you can't agonize when other people have real problems. Like you will have a job.
It's just a question of,

there might be depressed wages for certain. Yeah, okay.
So a graduate, an undergraduate is going to make 84K instead of 90K right at 22.

I was on the board of the business school, and you know what our biggest problem was in terms of recruiting?

Recruiters stopped recruiting at Haas because the kids were getting too many offers and wouldn't accept their offers.

They're like, we come here, we spend two days, we spend a lot of time and energy, and then no one takes our offer because they're all getting

at some point, and this is happening at NYU, and this is great to be

a business school grad or great to be a graduate of a great undergraduate school. The kids are getting five and seven offers.

And we've had to tell them, stop interviewing when you get your seventh offer. You're not doing anyone anymore.
They don't don't like to. I was talking to a kid who was applying.

You know, Alex will be applying to colleges. And,

you know, they think they limit the number they can apply now, but it's still, it's like, why are you applying to that many? Which one do you want to go to? Like, they, they, they over, they over.

It becomes competition. How many offers do you have? Yeah, exactly.

Well, I don't think he's like that, but I think it's more, I don't, I don't see this, I guess it's a strategy, but I find it appalling, actually. Anyway, you'll be fine, Millie.

You'll be perfectly fine. Good to be Millie.
Good to be Millie. What a good name, by the way.

way I love that name all right if you've got a question of your own you'd like answered you know we should speaking of which we this is a really good thing on career advice we should do a career show just like we did the dating show because I think we got a lot of people married we should do a parenting show I would like that a lot let's do

a one that's I people always say tell me about Karen I say the thing I admire most about you is your parenting yeah let's do a parenting show I think it'd be good just before this I made my son a delightful lunch in fact I felt like good about that it was delicious I made I cooked last night I met I cooked Louis was like are you sure I shouldn't cook?

And I did it, and he was pleased with my meal. I had my own.

It's funny, similar for breakfast. I had my son mix me as a cop and coke.
Same same.

Same same.

I cook for them. I got to say, the New York Times cooking app is amazing.
I've been using it a lot. I'm not a very good, I'm an okay cook, but now I'm getting to be a better one.

If you've got a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for our show or call 85551Pivot.
All right, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

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That's odoo.com.

Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other.

One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting.

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Okay, Scott, let's have some wins and fails. Before that, I want to make a call out to Doug and Freya.
I was having lunch in Los Angeles at Jagusta, one of my favorite places.

And I have to say, about four people came up to me and asked about you. And these were the most enthusiastic.
Yes. Again, it's really quite amazing.

It was a couple. They like, just like Brene Brown and Rosman.
Oh, you sent me a video.

Yeah, I sent you a video. They were great.
But here's to Doug and Freya. Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed your lunch. I certainly did.
And thank you for saying something.

We really, as I say, come up to us and talk to us. We love it.
I had another young guy and another one. It was really lots on the plane.

It was really nice. It was really nice.
And we love it.

So wins, I have, I'm going to have one, the NASA photos

from the web, James Webb Space Telescope. Wow.

It feels like I was watching Thor the other day getting ready to go to Thor Love and Thunder, and they have those beautiful visuals of them flying through space. Nothing so beautiful, so, so amazing.

It gives you pause. It makes you, this was from billions of years ago, too, right? These pictures are from a galaxy that doesn't exist anymore.

But wow, I wish someday we can space explore exploration because this, I'd love to see this. Yeah, brought to you by those boneheads called government.

Government, yeah. Yeah, beautiful.
It's incredible. I agree with you.

By the way, speaking of Thor, I heard that Chris Hemsworth, out of respect for Natalie Portman's veganism, decided not to eat meat before they kissed, which means, and this is a serious question, if I eat pork, do I get to make out with Chris Hemsworth?

It could happen.

Well, interesting, it was an exchange between Tessa Thompson and Natalie Portman at an interview, and she didn't know, Tessa Thompson didn't know that.

And then they all talked about how much meat he eats like he eats bison in the morning he eats like a ton of meat so even though you think it's a small thing apparently this man likes to eat uh animal flesh quite a bit uh that was very cute um in any case i eat beef two or three times a day

i do not i i i eat it once every couple weeks and i do eat um i do eat chicken more i eat a lot of fish um and i i like pork i do like pork quite a bit but i don't like it that much i like it i like the taste of it i don't like beef as much anymore i don't know know why i just don't have the i don't have a problem with it i just don't like it as much um anyway swats for dinner beef i see that thank you um i but i don't like the plant burgers either so i don't know um but i do like salmon is my favorite thing uh wild salmon anyway um that's my positive uh i don't really have vegans aren't animal lovers they're plant haters kara my fail is that crazy that sydney powell and the whole gang of them she just lost i think a lawyer in her i hope she loses her dominion suit uh that that craziness at the at the white house those people able to get in just like it's nerve-wracking that crazy people can get into the White House and avail themselves to an audience with the president.

It's crazier that we can elect one. I know that, but man,

I think George Conway actually said it well. Someone said that Pence and these others should get a medal of honor for what they did.

You don't get a medal of honor for not participating in a coup, but thank goodness they were there. That's, you know, my God, my God.

That would have fail on behalf of the White House security and everyone else to let these lunatics headed by Rudy Giuliani, including Sidney Powell, Michael Flynn, and the guy from overstock.com, which my favorite reference in the testimony of

Pat Sipollone. He goes, there was this overstock guy.
I'm like, who are you? Like, I didn't know this guy. Yes.
He was crazy. I remember like, oh, he's our crazy e-commerce guy.
Yes, exactly.

So crazy was in the office. And I love Pat Sipollone.
Like, who the fuck are you? Get the fuck out of my way. And why are you here? kind of stuff.
And apparently he ate a lot of Swedish meatballs.

That was my favorite thing. Apparently Trump served Swedish meatballs.
Anyway,

that gang of idiots is really, you know, hucksters, idiots, and grifters. Going into the White House was a real fail.
All right, your win and fail? I love your win, the NASA photos.

My fail, and this is along the lines of what you're talking about, I don't think Biden gets the credit he deserves for assembling a team of people that are competent.

And that is greatness is in the agency of others. The team with the best players wins.
And Peter Navarro, who was on Newsmax, is no legitimate broadcast cable network.

Not even Fox will let him on anymore. And he went on to say that he believes Vice President Pence is guilty of treason because he certified the election.

This is someone who was supposed to be handling our economy. It's just, it just gives you a sense for just how incompetent and weird the team that the former president assembled.

Well, he had some good people and they left, right?

I don't think you'd say that about the

Facebook board.

Anyone with any integrity ultimately ends up leaving, kind of toootsuite uh so I don't think Biden gets the credit he deserves for assembling a government that is credible and these are the the smaller decisions that people don't hear about that actively have you know that impact veterans affairs that impact local health departments that impact the housing

housing and urban development you know it's important the government be competent anyways my fail is is just the the incredible incompetence that continues to be unraveled here from the Trump administration my win is I can't help it

I've been very critical of the Twitter board of directors. I thought it was ridiculous that they entertained a part-time CEO or someone who was really the full-time CEO of another company.

I think from start to finish on this Musk BS, despite all the pressure, his sycophants laundering his BS and saying, oh, it's going to be hard for you. And Discovery will be bad for Twitter.

Yeah, it's going to be bad for someone. It's not going to be bad for Twitter.
They immediately assembled a special committee of the board. They didn't let Ego get involved.

They knew that, and this is legal analysis, that this guy is so erratic. So the agreement is reviewed by litigation attorneys is

more seller-friendly. In other words, tighter, more sealed than 93% of purchase agreements.
They've handled this perfectly. They haven't gotten personal.
They have been restrained.

And they are going to get their shareholders $54.20 a share. I think the legal document reads like, it's the most compelling complaint I have ever read.

And to summarize, they say that his actions are a lesson in hypocrisy. Well, that makes Elon the unhappy owner of the company.
Yeah, but even, here's the thing.

They're not going to make him buy the company. They're going to make him pay.

Right. But they've got a pretty big hammer here because they can say to him, okay, fine, show up for 54.20.

And even if he's forced to do that, and supposedly, by the way, one of the people he was considering to run Twitter was the father of his twins who was

subordinate. Yeah, but Discover is going to be

the mother. The mother.
The mother. I'm sorry.

Although there's not that there's any,

I don't see gender, Kara. I understand.
I know you want to have Elon's baby. I'm aware of this, but you can't.
You know,

you can't. I think it could happen.
You know what I'd like? I'd like, I think uterus? I think he's very drawn to me, so I have a proposal for Mr. Musk.

Let's meet in Delaware as I would enjoy seeing you get fucked.

Oh,

and let's meet at 4:20 in the morning, bitch. I'm to have to block you now.
Oh, my goodness gracious. Let's leave that in.
Let's don't take that out later. Don't.
They always take out my good stuff.

They always take out myself. Don't take that out.
Nobody takes that out, including yourself. Don't have another thought after we get to it.

I would like to watch him get pretty seriously plowed in Delaware. Okay.
That would turn me on. I will touch myself watching those chants record here.
Yay, then that's the show. Too much?

Let me put it this way. I'm sorry.
Let me take it down to a dad joke. Scott, I beg you.
Let me take it down to a dad joke. All right.

His decision to buy this firm and sign this agreement is similar to my decision when I went and decided to have the clam chowder at the September Lexis to Remember event. It felt good at the time.

It felt good at the time, but it ended up being a terrible decision. By the way, inflation has gotten so bad, Kara, that I now go to car dealerships and take test drives to run errands.

For more of these money-saving tips, follow me on Twitter. All right, Elon,

get back to Rockets. I walked it back.

I walked back. Get back to rockets.
I don't think you have rockets to nowhere. Get back to rockets and cars.
You have rockets for Elon, that little bitch. He really wants me.

Do you get the sense he wants me to do? No, I don't get the sense. I get the sense that if I asked him to code, he wouldn't come.
I think he's drawn to me.

Okay, all right, okay, all right. I think he's not talking to me.
Cut with a knife. I think he's not talking to you due to you, but that's okay.
I lose friends because of you sometimes. I gain them.

I gain them. I don't care.

I don't care.

Strangers in restaurants go on video saying they like me i know they do i showed my kids that yesterday they love us both they love us i showed my kids that video yesterday that you sent and they have the same reaction anytime they look at me and they're like why do they like you they like i know they're my cousin the podcast and they're like the podcast you listen to on the weekends and make us listen to and i'm like yeah and they're like and why do they like that my kids are totally befuddled that we have anything gets the appeal everyone in my family gets the appeal

they love us scott that's what they talk about our beautiful relationship. Anyway, the chemistry that me and Elon have.

I think it is. It's well beyond it.
Anyway, that's the show. On that note, we'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot.
Scott, read us out and try not to say fuck Elon.

It's an issue was produced by Larry Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griven. Ernie Endertot engineered this episode.
Thanks also to Drew Bros, Emil Severio.

Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business, an eight ball of cocaine, a cattle prod up my ass, and the Delaware Chancery Court.

These are a few of my favorite things, Kara.

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