What the OnlyFans news says about power and control, Cathie Wood's transparent investment strategy, and a prediction on the federal reserve pulling away from the punch bowl

Support for the show comes from Saks Fifth Avenue.

Sacks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to shop for your personal style.

Follow us here, and you can invest in some new arrivals that you'll want to wear again and again, like a relaxed product blazer and Gucci loafers, which can take you from work to the weekend.

Shopping from Saks feels totally customized, from the in-store stylist to a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you things that fit your style and taste.

They'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in, or when that Brunello Cacchinelli sweater you've been eyeing is back in stock.

So, if you're like me and you need shopping to be personalized and easy, head to Saks Fifth Avenue for the Best Fall Arrivals and Style inspiration.

Thumbtack presents Project Paralysis.

I was cornered.

Sweat gathered above my furrowed brow and my mind was racing.

I wondered who would be left standing when the droplets fell.

Me or the clogged sink.

Drain cleaner and pipe snake clenched in my weary fist, I stepped toward the sink and then...

Wait, why am I stressing?

I have thumbtack.

I can easily search for a top-rated plumber in the Bay Area, read reviews, and compare prices, all on the app.

Thumbtack knows homes.

Download the app today.

Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway is still somewhere tweeting and missing me.

So I'm joined by his favorite Canadian, Andrew Ross Sorkin of the Good Hair, also New York Times columnist and editor, co-anchor of Squawkbox, and author of Too Big to Fail.

Andrew, how are you?

I'm great, but we still have never gotten to the bottom of this whole Canadian thing.

Do we even know?

Do we know where that's from?

It was probably some ayahuasca moment, and he just decided.

He has a massive crush on you, like a mat, kind of creepy, honestly.

It's mutual, by the way.

I'm a big fan.

I don't.

I am.

Okay.

He knows his, you know, I'm a big fan.

I'm just happy to sit in

his seat and keep it warm.

Yes, but he's like deeply, he thinks I'm trying out hosts to replace him, and that is, in fact, true.

I saw that commercial for Pivot.

I also saw his other commercial, frankly.

So I know.

I know that.

At any moment, Scott may cancel himself.

That is correct.

And deservedly so.

I would defend him on that.

He could do it.

So this is a tryout then?

No, it is.

Of course it is.

But I like to bother him with people like Preet.

I have George Hahn.

I've got some others.

So, you know, we'll see.

We'll see what happens.

We'll see how it goes.

You'll see how he behaves.

Now, I really do miss him, but let's not tell him that.

So let's get on to the stories because there's so much to talk to you about, particularly.

So, a couple of things we're just going to talk about just briefly.

TikTok is partnering with Shopify to strengthen its e-commerce ties.

This is a thing that they had talked about when Trump was trying to do whatever he was trying to do with it

to link it with Walmart and stuff like that.

So, Shopify vendors with TikTok accounts can now add shopping tab to their profiles.

What do you think about this?

Because

this has been discussed many times.

Instagram is a platform that does this too.

This is the only way that

TikTok is ever going to get to the same place as

Instagram/slash Facebook, right?

So to me,

this is,

I don't know if this is the holy grail for them or not, but given that they don't really have a back-end platform like this, given that Facebook effectively does, to some degree, already provide these services, I think

this is what you would do if you were them

and you didn't want to build it yourself.

Right.

So, and I think it also speaks volumes about Shopify.

I mean, the growth of Shopify in the past 18 months is insane.

Well, not being in Amazon's a big deal.

Being an alternative to Amazon, right?

They're not going to sign up with Amazon here.

They didn't want to do it with Walmart.

You know, it's kind of interesting in that regard.

But I'm going to, I will make one point about this because I know that you and Scott talk about Amazon all the time and potentially Amazon is a monopoly all the time.

I say to anybody who says Amazon's a monopoly, I say

Shopify.

Right.

Tell me how Shopify could have a hundred billion dollar plus valuation at the same time that Amazon is somehow.

Absolutely, but that's true.

Okay, that's true.

We're talking about sort of the decimation of other researchers.

No, I control, but everybody, but everybody thinks that Amazon has somehow quashed all sorts of innovation.

And I look at Shopify and I say that that's

the opposite side of that argument.

Yeah, Andy Jassy should send a fruit basket to Shopify.

We offer it to Toby at Shopify.

Yeah, definitely.

There has to be an alternative, and there's a good misinternation being the alternative, right?

Like Microsoft with Apple and this and, you know, Apple.

So the real question, though, is do you believe that Shopify is the alternative or you think that Walmart is the alternative?

I think Walmart has struggled and struggled and struggled for many years.

And I have a lot of regard for a good example.

Doug McMillan, you may have been there, was at Code a couple of years ago.

And he talked about a 10,000 square foot store that you looked at things and then ordered them and they were delivered to your home instead of their 200,000, 180,000 square foot stores.

And it was, nobody paid attention, but I had covered retail for you.

So I was like, this is a big deal with this guy I just said.

They didn't do it.

And Amazon is now doing Amazon freshes all over my neighborhood in D.C.

They're doing the small, the goes, the freshes, the possible department stores.

This was an idea that it's not a fresh new idea necessarily.

And if you're Doug on a day like this past week when this announcement got made, are you saying I lost it?

I don't remember.

No, they weren't.

They had it.

Why didn't they do it?

Like, that's the thing.

Like, they had been, I'm doing a memoir as your wife is my agent, actually,

on the, on the stuff and i look back old stories my old stories about walmart taking over everything right killing off garfinkels so i don't know interesting time i don't know i only i only say that because you thought that microsoft and you thought microsoft and walmart were going to come together and do that as part of the trump thing as you mentioned and then they didn't didn't happen and here we are yeah so airbnb says it's funding uh housing for 20 000 afghan refugees around the world again this is something brian chesky's done several times around uh charlottesville he's done it around all kinds of stuff he goes out on a limb progressively in this area it's also a good brand attribute.

What do you think about that?

I think for the brand of Airbnb, it is another master stroke for Brian.

Having said that, I'm sure it does not ingratiate himself with Kevin McCarthy and Republicans who seem to be so insistent that these refugees

either aren't refugees or somehow should never come to America or should not be

given a home, which I think, as you probably can imagine, is

just so you know just that they think I heard I I heard that

what news channel you're reading you're watching but yes

so this is a good thing if you're Brian it's I I think I think Brian has staked out a

place in the United States and globally around being this progressive brand.

And I think that attracts people to the brand.

I think the complicated part for Brian is going to be over time,

you know, which landmine you try to avoid and which landmine you accidentally step on.

They're involved, by the way, with the Olympics now.

They're going to be a sponsor in China this winter.

I think that's actually going to be complicated.

So, right?

Because here on one side, you're going to be

working with Afghan refugees, which I think is a marvelous thing.

But the same people who believe that are going to say, Brian, how can you therefore be involved with China?

Yep, 100%.

I mean, like all these businesses.

But at the same time, like there's no negative to saying we're going to fund Afghan refugees for them.

And by the way, Nazis aren't allowed to stay with us.

It's kind of a good brand attribute, but you're right.

I think it's a great brand attribute until you believe that there is some senator, congressperson, or somebody else on the other side of this argument who says, you know, we're going to tax these people.

We're going to regulate Airbnb because we beat them.

I mean, you remember what they did

in Georgia to Delta Airlines

over some of these issues in terms of they actually, they tried, but cost them some that cost them some real money that was real money that was real taxes I think Delta looked good in that one yeah but you're right I thought Delta looked fabulous but it's an impact and so this is that's the part you know right now I think progressive politics or some semblance of progressive politics are popular and popular enough the question is what happens over time and does

your brand look Patagonia just did it again and it does it again and again and it's been nothing but net for them in terms of people wanting you know their most recent things.

So I don't know.

I feel like it's, if you stick to it and he keeps doing it, it's, I think it's probably a good thing.

So last thing, Disney, speaking of people fighting with politicians, Disney, last one was Delta.

You mentioned that and Patagonia, obviously.

Disney Cruise Line announced that it will require vaccination proof from all passengers above the age of 12 from Florida to the Bahamas.

This goes against DeSantis' ban on vaccine passports.

Disney is a big player in Florida.

This is a, what is the, I don't know what it is, a shot across whatever.

How can you lose?

Who's got, let's think about this.

Who's got the leverage?

DeSantis or or disney disney disney disney not only has the leverage because of their size because the number of people they employ in florida i mean the whole thing does it disney should be should be the governor of florida at this point yeah yeah so what why do they just were like screw you desantis they know that this is a big deal disney doing this the other cruise lines did it in a little bit and were sort of got attacked by desantis but if you know now he's got to attack disney which is i think

he can't attack disney in the same way he couldn't attack those school districts that were saying you got to wear a mask.

Yeah, yeah.

What does that put DeSantis at?

What does it do when he's, when all these businesses are going up against, I saw Christy Nomes one last night, which I thought was rather clever, actually.

She's sort of the smarter DeSantis.

She's like, we're for business freedom and we may not agree, but they should do what they want.

Like she was, she was fascinating in her little.

Well, look, can you be a Republican who believes in free markets and then tell a company that they can't require their employees to do certain things?

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's, she threads, she threaded that needle.

He's an oaf.

He looks like an oaf, and I think it's really hurt his.

And then the other question is, is DeSantis playing to be the governor again in Florida or is the DeSantis playing to be on the national stage in a different way?

In which case, the audience becomes quite different.

I suppose.

I just think it's, I think he looks like an oaf.

I think Disney, fighting with Disney and fighting with businesses is a real problem.

All right, let's go on to big stories.

Only fans.

This is the big story.

You're very interested in this.

A reverse course.

I love this story for so many reasons.

Cannot wait.

Let me just fill people in on it.

Reverse course on its plan to ban sexually explicit content.

This is your sex workers.

The company created quite a stir with the creator economy last week when it said it would ban sexually explicit content because of restrictions from banking partners.

I feel like it may have been a feint.

Anyway, less than a week later, OnlyFans announced it was suspending the policy change that had, quote, secured assurances necessary to support our diverse creator community, which means from banks or whatever.

So

explain this.

What's the game plan?

Why did it reverse?

Okay, so what's going on?

Okay, I love this story, not because of the porn side.

I want to be clear with you about that.

Scott might have a different view about that, but I'm not Scott.

I'm not Scott.

I love this story because it speaks to freedom of speech.

It speaks to monopolistic potentially practices or power among the...

financial universe in terms of the banks, whether that was an excuse or not, we can get to.

And it speaks to this idea of empowering the creator community, even if it means you're naked.

Yeah.

Which to me is unto itself a fascinating sort of component part of all this.

Yeah.

We are pro-sex workers here at Pivot, but go ahead, keep going.

Well, certainly.

So it's no, but, and this is what's so interesting.

By the way, I will say there has been a shift, at least online, if you spend time on Twitter enough.

in terms of support for sex workers in a way that they were not being supported only a week ago.

So all of a sudden, sex workers became creators.

I thought that as just

a little bit of a mile.

It was a big part of this company's business, right?

So, what do you think actually happened behind the scenes?

It's a huge part of this.

I actually do believe it was the banks.

I don't think that that was a head fake at all.

I think that banks over the past year,

you saw it happen.

Actually, Nick Christoph, our colleague at the New York Times, deserves a lot of credit for putting pressure on the credit card companies to abandon sites like Pornhub and other sites

like that.

I think that some of the banks took a new look at it.

I think some of the credit card companies took a different look at it.

In this case, it wasn't the credit card company.

So there's two pieces of this.

There's the Rails, the MasterCards and Visa.

They were not the ones that were having the problem.

It's the underwriters.

So the people, when you get a credit card, you don't just get a Visa card.

You get a Visa card from

Chase or wherever.

And it was some of those banks that were saying, we don't want to process these types of purchases, partially from a reputational perspective.

One of the other reasons, by the way, historically, banks have not wanted to process these types of transactions is how often they

get a phone call later from somebody, including parents and other things, saying, this was not an authorized sale.

You need to now send it back to us.

So there's actually a higher risk for them.

teen or something like that.

That it's a stolen credit card, that there's a fake something, that there's a kid doing, all sorts of things.

My mind immediately went to my teenage sons, but go ahead.

but this but this is exactly why banks don't like processing um these types of transactions so that part from just an economic perspective

with the head the bango when he was leaving mastercard and he yeah i i can't tell you the the sex workers came down on him and me for just even talking about it and obviously nick kristoff on these things said we were you know trying to inhibit sex and this and that.

And it was a really interesting experience doing that.

But why did they reverse if they said they were going to do it?

What was it suddenly?

From my understanding of it, and

there's probably more reporting to do.

I think that there are some banks that will transact for you that make it a lot easier.

I think they have probably found some of those.

I also think there were some banks that didn't think about sex workers as

part of the

content creators or the creator community or the creator economy.

And so I think that's a bit of a mind shift that's taking place in the finance industry.

And I also think that there's another component part of this, which is that banks are increasingly nervous that regulators are going to look at them as having too much power.

Now,

I'm somebody who has been writing for years less about how banks could impact the sex work industry and more about how banks could impact the gun industry.

So I've advocated in a bunch of columns over the past couple of years and sort of exposed the idea and opportunity that banks banks could have to control

the gun industry, something that you talked to MasterCard about guns and other things as well, that they don't want to do.

They don't want to do it for political reasons because what they don't want to do, this goes back to where we were talking about DeSantis in Florida and all sorts of other things.

They don't want, or Delta, they don't want politicians to say, okay, we're going to regulate you now.

Okay,

you don't want to give loan money to that person or provide them with credit because you don't like that kind of thing.

And so is this is to me, we are this is like a microcosm of all of these issues in one.

Here's what's interesting: one, two things: one is this idea that you mentioned that you know that content creators are of all kinds, shapes, and sizes, right?

And so, what are the what do these sex workers deserve in terms of service and protections, like labor protections and things like that, like you're an Uber driver or anything else?

And on the flip side, and I'd love you to talk about it because I interviewed Ashton Kutcher and Julie

Cordois yesterday from Thorne about this Apple thing, which has attracted a lot of controversy.

And it's reported that Facebook accounts for nearly 95% of online child exploitation reports.

That's because they actually track them.

Apple hadn't until recently.

So, or not that much.

So, when you think about these banks, also because we talk about social networks being social arbiters

of things, and we force them into it.

We get angry with them.

They have anti-vex or whatever happens to be the problem of the day.

These banks are in a much more, you know, and you noticed that with the January 6th thing when I did that parlor interview, they all threw him off suddenly because he said some things they didn't like.

So where does that put these banks?

They kind of have no choice, right?

Well, so I think that the banks are like platforms.

Right.

And yes, you can de-platform somebody.

A bank has every right to take a customer or not take a customer.

The only thing you cannot do is do it in a discriminatory way.

You cannot effectively discriminate against quote-unquote protected classes.

but you can decide.

I'm not doing sex workers or whatever.

I'm not doing sex workers, or I'm not doing that.

And by the way, there are a lot of folks who've decided they don't want to be in certain businesses.

So, Stripe, and I give them a lot of credit on guns or other things where they say, We just don't transit, we don't transact guns.

That's not our business.

Apple, we don't do that.

That's not the way we're approaching this.

By the way, Apple, and we can have lots of debates about their quote-unquote walled garden, right?

They decide what there's they're not doing sex work apps

on their platform, right?

Yep.

And do we think that's terrible?

I mean, maybe we do.

I mean, this goes back to the whole sort of power dynamic and

whether you think that these sites should have the control that they do.

I am a believer that customers buy products from companies based on what you think they stand for, what they mean.

This goes, now we're talking about, we go back to Brian and Airbnb or Patagonia.

Or Disney.

And I think that's totally fine.

Yeah.

Now, if they're all colluding together to say, you know what, no bank or no

wants to do sex workers, and they're talking to each other and saying, we're all going to do this together, arguably that's a problem.

So when you think about this, when you think about the banks going back and forth on OnlyFans, one of the things OnlyFans had said last week, I believe, is that they couldn't raise venture money.

I can't believe venture capitalists have the lowest bar on the planet.

I mean, it's lower than the lowest spot on this earth.

I don't think that Andreessen Horowitz is getting into the sex worker business anytime.

I mean, I think most of the is that really true?

They can't find money.

There's money like, there's not enough rat holes to shove down all the money available to a lot of these startups.

And if it's especially lucrative, there's always someone who's going to pony up, do a SPAC.

I think that there's some.

I don't know.

I mean, maybe, maybe.

Maybe there is.

But by the way, there's less banks.

So this is interesting.

There's probably not a bank in town right now that would take your company public if you were OnlyFans

doing this kind of thing.

So there's also the argument to say that from a business perspective, long-term value creation as a platform that actually being a quote straight platform, for lack of a better phrase, or

let's call it

sex worker-free, might actually be a better business model.

Let me just say, I'm going to make the opposite.

Look at Tumblr.

It was bought for a bedillion dollars by Marissa Mayer, and then it was sold for like $3.

You and I could have bought Tumblr at the end, right?

So look, that was a heavy duty.

That was a lot going on there.

And so they lost all their value.

That was there.

And the same thing with OnlyFans.

I think people know this for what it is, you know, especially during the pandemic.

It got bigger.

I think this is what they're married to.

And they have to be able to get away with that.

But I would say, and maybe you can't pivot pivot.

Here we are on pivot.

Could you pivot the business model?

I don't know.

And maybe you'd want to try to pivot the business model because, look,

my kids are too young, though.

And who knows?

Maybe they are on this stuff and I don't know.

And

I'm praying that I'm keeping an eye on all the stuff.

But I wouldn't want them on OnlyFans.

Right.

Right.

Because I know what's on there, even if they told me what they were really trying to go get, go find was something else.

Right.

Right.

Right.

And so maybe there's a bigger art, bigger, there's a bigger TA.

I hate TA, but there's a bigger TA if there's no sex workers on the, on the platform.

Presumably.

But again, look,

the minute they take them off, they run smack into TikTok.

They run smack into other creator platforms.

And there's like a new creator platform every five minutes.

And so I think this differentiates them.

And it's just, I'd love to understand what happened behind the scenes.

Like here, they got a bank or someone to do it just the way Parlor got someone to do their tech after they got dumped by a bunch of people.

There's always someone lining up.

Anyway, this is really interesting.

We're going to keep watching this.

It's a fascinating area, but you're right.

People are really suddenly very pro sex workers.

Like, how dare they not let them?

do that, create that online.

It's interesting.

Hugh Hefner would love what's happening.

Hugh Hefner, Whatever.

All right.

Hugh Hefner would love what's happening.

Yep.

Andrew, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about the New York Times profile and investment mogul Kathy Wood and take a listener mail question.

Support for this show comes from Robinhood.

Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform?

With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs.

Trade all in one place.

Get started now on on Robinhood.

Trading crypto involves significant risk.

Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto LLC.

Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services.

Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or SIPIC protected.

Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.

Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC, member SIPIC, a registered broker dealer.

Support for Pivot comes from LinkedIn.

From talking about sports, discussing the latest movies, everyone is looking for a real connection to the people around them.

But it's not just person to person, it's the same connection that's needed in business.

And it can be the hardest part about B2B marketing, finding the right people, making the right connections.

But instead of spending hours and hours scavenging social media feeds, you can just tap LinkedIn ads to reach the right professionals.

According to LinkedIn, they have grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, making it stand apart from other ad buys.

You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority seniority skills, and company revenue, giving you all the professionals you need to reach in one place.

So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads.

LinkedIn will even give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign so you can try it for yourself.

Just go to linkedin.com/slash pivot pod.

That's linkedin.com/slash pivot pod.

Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads.

Andrew, we're back with our second big story.

This is an area I'd really like to understand from you.

This is a phenomenon this particular investor is.

The New York Times published a profile detailing the rise and success of Kathy Wood, the Wall Street vet and founder of Arc Invest.

The profile titled God Money, YOLO, How Kathy Wood Found Her Flock, starts with a bullish herbal stance on Tesla, explains how it helped build her strange alliance with a new generation of risky traders.

She's really popular.

I'd been aware of this.

She started Arc Investment in January 2014.

The firm invests solely on disruptive innovation.

I have to tell you, so many people have a target on her.

She's a fascinating character.

Tell us about her and what you think about the strategy to be as transparent as possible with her investments and her decisions.

Okay, so I've known Kathy Wood for...

quite some time.

We've interviewed her on Squawkbox actually more times than I can remember.

And I will tell you, especially early on,

I thought that she was was a bit crazy.

I didn't get the joke.

Define crazy.

Why is that?

Tell me why that is.

She would come on and tell us that Tesla was going to the moon.

And she would set these price targets, which seemed completely unreasonable at the time.

Yeah, it seems very Henry Blodge at Amazon 19th.

And she had lots of math, which didn't.

at least to me, particularly make a lot of sense.

I know I get a lot of feedback on Twitter saying,

How is this person on TV saying these things?

None of this makes any sense.

And yet, to a large degree, at least temporarily, and we won't know whether it's temporary or forever, she's been right.

Which is to say that Tesla's gone up.

She was an early believer in Bitcoin

and so many other parts of this, as you described, YOLO economy.

And so she clearly has tapped into something and not just tapped into the right stocks to buy, but also how to communicate with this sort of new generation of social media-driven Robinhood trader.

And so she's attracted a ton of money

into her funds.

And as a result, literally when she puts out, you know,

a statement saying we bought X at the end of the day, there are people who are literally, some people just own her fund, but there's a a lot of other just straight-up copycats.

Yeah, because she's very transparent about her investments, which is usually not what these people do.

They'll say even one thing and do another, sort of, like it's essentially.

Speaking of Andorra's orchid, no, no, but what's so interesting about the idea of the transparency is thus far the transparency has worked, meaning every time she says she's buying something, people copy it because it's working, right?

The flip side can also be true, which is to say that when someone makes a trade makes it public

when it's public sometimes then there are people who then decide that they want to take the opposite side of the trade that is not happening in this instance because so far in this at least the past 18 24 whatever months yeah she's killing you know everything's working yeah so what when you have potential risky it's obviously riskier investing um how should they think about when they're following her investment strategy

look i don't want to offer investment advice The only thing I'd say is diversifying matters.

And so if you have all

your eggs in the Kathy Woods basket

and you're trying to make sure that you're diversifying your risk, that's not probably the best idea in the world.

Having said that,

if you want to gamble on this sort of YOLO economy, heavy word.

That's YOLO, Andrew.

What do you think of YOLO?

What do you think of YOLO?

I mean, it kind of

shows the stock market is kind of a gamble.

We are in a YOLO moment.

The question is, is this a tulips moment?

Have we always been in a YOLO moment?

And just the very powerful people know that and we didn't, all us chumps?

Ooh, I don't think so, actually.

I think that we're in a YOLO moment because

you could get money from effectively the government via the banks for next to nothing right now.

The stimulus money was thrown around.

There were a lot of people.

hanging around

during COVID, stuck inside.

So they had nothing to do but basically gamble and trade.

And that's what they've wanted to do.

And now that

we've sort of lived through a pandemic, hopefully coming out on the other side, but who knows where we really are, I think there is a YOLO sense of, you know what, screw it.

I'm just going to start spending money because who knows the next time I'm going to have the opportunity to.

So all of that, now the question is, can you create a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Right.

And that's to me the interesting part of it.

If everyone just spends all their money all the time, that's great.

It's just YOLOing, in other words.

If everyone YOLOs, can you just

build a persistent YOLO economy.

Right.

So the New York Times profile found she manages nearly $85 billion, which is up from less than $10 billion at the end of 2019.

First of all, where's her money coming from?

And, you know, this, knowing her trails are

trailing the overall market this year, I know you don't want to give investment advice, but what typically happens here?

There have been popular, who was the last popular person like her?

There was another investor that then sort of hit the skids and this and that.

I mean, obviously, every investor hits the skids at some point.

But what do you think?

Look, I mean, Bill,

who is going into this?

Yeah.

Well, right now, it appears that it is a younger generation of trader, of Robinhood investor.

But there's some institutional money in these things now.

I mean, it's not all just straight retail, but the interest around her

is mostly retail.

And the question is,

this time around, is retail somehow smarter than what used to be described as the smart money?

It used to be that the retail was the dumb money.

Dumb money.

The institutions were the smart money.

Yeah.

So has that, you know, is GameStop and AMC somehow changed that dynamic?

I happen to think it probably hasn't long term, but boy, has it short term.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You can make some money.

So who does she compare to?

Can you think about?

And then I have one more question on her.

I mean,

who does she compare to?

Is there a character like her?

Like, look, you work on billions.

Is there, you have a Kathy Wood character on billions?

Is there a character in this day and age?

I'm thinking, I'm actually thinking, and we could probably do this together, back in the late 90s,

who do you think were those

kinds of characters?

I mean, Henry didn't have his own funds.

No, he didn't, but remember that.

But Henry was a believer in this stuff.

Mary Meeker.

Henry's a little bit more circumspect today.

Mary Meeker.

Though I would say that Mary's been, I mean,

Mary was both

right.

She was right.

Turned wrong turned right again yeah right yeah i think she had an overall thesis and much more conservative but that both of them had the overall thesis of the growth of the internet i think nobody understood like that what the pandemic would do especially this particular go-round um but i i think yeah i suppose henry henry would i would also say that there's one different insight that kathy woods has had here that actually is to me interesting and it relates to tesla but relates to maybe some of these other meme stocks as well which is that it's not just the business model that has to be scalable.

It's the ability to get new capital that has to be scalable.

And that if you can effectively continue to get new capital, you can almost create your own self-fulfilling prophecy of success, right?

Right.

Okay.

And that is actually an insight

that most investors have thus far completely missed.

I see.

That's a really smart one.

Who's coming after her?

That's my last question.

I mean, because like, it looks like people are coming after her, but they don't see, you know, I was just, again, I was doing this research for my book.

And, you know, remember David Rocker was all after AOL 100 years ago?

Like, he was sort of correct, but he was not correct, if that makes sense.

He was technically correct.

I just think like the classic wall, the classic Wall Street banks, the classic hedge fund managers, that anybody who believed in sort of Graham Dodd

or sort of Warren Buffett, anyone who believes in sort of these classic models looks at Kathy Woods and they turn up their nose and they say, this is ridiculous and I don't get it.

And what is she doing?

And, you know, she's some kind of pied piper.

That's what they think.

Now, they're thinking that while she's laughing, you know, all the way to the bank and they're not.

Yeah.

I'm going to have her on sway.

At the moment.

I'm Kathy Wood on sway.

All right, Andrew, let's pivot to a listener question, roll tape.

You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman.

You've got mail.

Hey, Kara, and maybe Scott, if he's done gallivanting around the world, Steven Spiker here, pediatric oncologist by training, now working in health tech.

With the recent and not surprising dismantling of Google Health, it has all of us working in health tech asking the question, if a company like Google can't cut it in healthcare, then who is actually capable of innovating in the space where there is such intense need for innovation?

Appreciate any insights.

Well, this is an interesting story.

You know,

both Andrew and I are long enough covering this to have watched Google at this several times.

And I literally started researching and I'd forgotten all the things they had done with their, and then Microsoft with Vault, and it just has gone on and on and on.

So, what Stephen's referring to is Google Health Vice President David Feinberg's departure from the company.

Feinberg will be joining Cerner, an electronic health records company in October.

There's a lot of that going on, electronic health records.

And there's several companies that are Epic, I think is one, and some others.

So, health tech is still something to be bullish on.

Scott always says investors should be looking for every opportunity to get between the intersection of technology and healthcare.

But Stephen's right, Andrew.

According to a report by Deloitte, investors dumped around $22 billion into digital health companies in 2020.

That's more than double the investments made in 2019.

Everyone's hoping, like as with climate change, everyone's hoping for the big moment.

And Google, Microsoft, Apple have not been as successful.

What do you think?

Well, I'm going to push back and say, have they not been successful?

I would argue Apple, for example, with

the iWatch, has actually

changed the dynamic in a material way.

Now, have they changed it in a monetary material way yet?

I don't know.

I wear an aura ring.

I just used a Q health testing

device to test my daughter for COVID.

She's negative, happily.

That device, I think long-term, is not only going to be testing for COVID, but next time we think that's...

This isn't a rapid test.

I used an ILOOM rapid test the other day because I was near a COVID person.

So I took this.

No,

this is

effectively the equivalent of a PCR test that you would do in your home.

We have these,

we had this company actually on our program a while ago.

Eventually, this test, which is a box, it's a cartridge, it links to your phone.

The phone can therefore

link to a doctor.

You'll be able to put strep tests in there.

You'll put

influenza.

Basically, there'll be a test for everything.

How much was this box?

Just curious, because the alum thing was 30 bucks.

I thought that was a lot.

It was great.

It was well done.

You know what?

I don't know.

can be honest with you.

I don't know.

I just got a test version of it.

So I don't know.

I think that the box is probably going to, I would imagine, cost a couple hundred dollars.

And I would assume the tests would have to be a lot cheaper unless it's unless they change.

So the way pregnancy tests have gone, it used to be you went to the doctor, killed the rabbit, and now you have pregnancy tests.

But don't you think that that's where all this is going to go?

I mean, I think telehealth, telemedicine has actually demonstrably changed even over the past 12 months.

The next time that you are even remotely sick, but but not so sick that you're dying, you're going to get on your phone and you're going to talk to your doctor like the equivalent of FaceTime.

Maybe you'll have one of these devices in your home.

She or he will tell you, you know, take some test and send me the results and then we'll decide what to do.

I think there's going to be a lot of that.

And I think we actually are on the cusp of a little bit of it.

Now, are we on some like mind-blowing change in how medicine and healthcare is going to be paid for and the economics of it all?

So you're talking about monitoring.

Because like you have the aura ring ring and I know you tweeted about it because they're mad that Fitbit's stealing

some good bits from them.

They have a way about readiness.

They've been pushing themselves as you could recognize COVID because of sleep and this and that.

But these are these are monitoring things, whether it's the aura ring or it's this box.

And I agree, like going to get a strep test is a pain in the neck.

So you just don't do it, right?

This experience I just had with getting these PCR tests was was easy because I used curative.

I went to like a booth that was in a high school, but it took days and days.

It was ridiculous like that I waited for so long.

And in Europe, there is sort of instant, I took the rapid test, and I wasn't sure it was, you know, it just was one of these moments.

I was like, well, this is a waste of my time.

Like, for sure, I can be making money doing other things than running around going to little booths in, you know, high schools or churches.

But it was better than it was for sure.

But this is all monitoring.

Like, what you're talking about is monitoring and cutting out some of the really ridiculous stuff we do for healthcare.

But I think they're talking about the idea of records,

monitoring, data sharing, getting tested.

Obviously, the pandemic's pushed us into this telehealth thing.

It hasn't worked as well, obviously, with education.

But

where do you see the investment possibilities then beyond monitoring?

Well, so I think there's going to be the monitoring, testing.

But I think the whole experience of going to a doctor is going to fundamentally change.

And therefore, by the way, the records issue, meaning the healthcare records issue will have to change because they're going to have to be more accessible.

You're going to,

they probably will all of a sudden be mobile, meaning you're going to have them on your phone, go from one doctor to the next, or go from one doctor to the next, sitting inside your own home.

I think all of that is coming.

It's just taking a long, long time in part because of the fact that so many of these healthcare systems already have either old technology that they're still trying to amortize or the new technology

is not completely baked yet.

I mean, I've talked to doctors.

I've talked to doctors over the years about, you know, why aren't you using the Google service or somebody else's service?

And, you know, they've customized these platforms to such a, such a degree.

It's like Oracle and Database.

They're sort of in the database of Epic or whatever they're in, and they're just stuck in there.

And you're locked in.

So I think that there's going to have to be,

you know, some transformational work done that effectively gets you to this next place.

But I don't know.

What about telehealth, though?

Well, tell them, you know,

you use a lot.

I've tried a lot of these.

I've just noticed, speaking of ads on Instagram, this thing called fastic which is another there's like 20 apps for fasting to monitor it rather than doing it yourself on a piece of paper um you know i tried the the uh continuous glucose monitor thing

those large levels and and there's several like that super sapiens and others um again this is all sort of tech guys trying not to die you know what i mean essentially and me and kara um so what do you but where where would be what would be the biggest thing that would have to happen would it be the you know amazon getting in here?

Like, I would honestly, I would trust them over a Walmart or a CVS.

Now, CVS and Walmart just got two new CEOs, two women who are running these companies.

Where is your healthcare going to come from?

The truth is that the challenge at the moment for all even the monitoring stuff we're talking about is it's too pricey.

I mean, let's be honest.

Yeah.

Karen, you and I are like one percenters in this.

You know, this aura ring here, I think.

I still was like, it costs I think

300 bucks.

If you're wearing that levels patch that's not a cheap product i mean if you want to actually monitor your glucose a couple hundred a couple hundred dollars um

all of these things still cost too much so to me the real question is you know when you can get an aura ring for 30 bucks or something like that or it gets subsidized by your insurance company because they actually believe that all of this stuff changes the dynamic that's the thing i don't know meaning we could wear all of this monitoring stuff and then you have to say is the monitoring stuff truly a nudge enough to change people's behavior to the point where you're seeing demonstrable outcomes?

People say to me, oh, you wear your aura ring.

Does it really change your sleep?

Well, I always say to people, it doesn't really change your sleep.

It changes whether you decide, you look at the data, and does the data tell you that you should go to sleep earlier?

And is that any different than if you did?

Do you?

I actually do.

I have found this thing to be a huge.

You're a good Canadian.

I have found this monitoring the sleep thing to be a major major game changer for me because without the data, I honestly would just be tired all the time.

And I still am.

It's true.

When I was wearing this,

I stopped eating certain things.

I did.

And it feel better.

Honestly, I do.

It was interesting.

And it was surprising things.

It was never the thing I thought.

It was like something weird.

And I was like, oh, I see what's going on.

But can I throw one?

Can I ask you a healthcare question?

Sure.

I would say pre-pandemic, the pharmaceutical industry was hated.

Hated.

Right?

Do we we love the pharmaceutical industry now?

Do we love Pfizer now?

Do we love Moderna?

Or do we have to do that?

It's interesting.

I was just going to ask you that.

I think it's interesting to watch.

If you notice, certain VCs on Twitter are like, follow the money.

They're moving into the conspiracy theory world.

You know, this idea of them trying to benefit, and the way we're doing testing helps them, and the way we're doing vaccines helps them.

You know, the more we're sick or the more we feel we're sick or in fear, there's a lot of that online.

I don't know if you've noticed that.

At the same time, remarkable what's going, what's happened, you know, and I credit the more innovative companies like Biantech and others, who have been, by the way, working on a lot of this stuff for a decade, right?

It's not like it's, one of the things I was arguing with one of my relatives was,

this is new.

This is fresh.

I'm like, this has been worked on for a decade.

Like, come on.

Like, this, there's, it's just, they're just moving it out quicker for something else.

So I think it's both.

I think you sort of are sort of appreciative of how quickly this rolled out.

And at the same time, the resistance, that's the last question I was going to ask you.

If you're talking about all this monitoring and everything else, people won't take a friggin' vaccine.

Like, honestly, did you, there was a fireman from San Francisco who I literally want to go find and punch in the face, except he'd kill me.

But it was, it was, it's just amazing to watch, they're not going to be willing to be vaccined because they think they're being monitored.

They're certainly not going to be willing to be monitored on other people.

Okay, so I go back to follow the money in the same, in the opposite way of the, the,

what the venture capitalists, the skeptical venture capitalists online may be saying or conspiracy theorists.

I think if there are incentives

by either insurance companies, employers, or others to wear either monitoring devices or other things because they believe that having those devices on actually changes people's behavior and makes them healthier, I think people are going to do it.

So Delta Airlines just announced that their employees, if you are not vaccinated, they're not saying you have to be vaccinated.

They're saying it'll cost you if you're not vaccinated.

It's going to cost you $200 a month if you're not vaccinated.

I think you're going to start to see nudges like that around all sorts of versions of.

You know, I like a stick.

Other people, I was arguing with someone who was here.

They like the carrot method.

Like, let's give them this.

I'm like, you know what?

No, you don't get to come to the concert.

You don't get to come.

You don't get to, just like with everything else, you don't have your polio vaccine.

You don't get to come.

Like,

I'm one of those parents.

Like, no, thank you.

I don't know.

I don't, I don't like incentives.

I think it just is like, I think the only thing, and I get that people get angry about it, but it sort of, it reminds me a lot of sort of, you don't get to drunk drive.

You just don't.

Unless we get autonomous cars, you don't get to drunk drive.

And you get, you pay the price for that and other people do too.

And so I just, I worry about a lot of these things.

I think they're all, this monitoring is all good for people, but they will resist it because they feel they're being monitored and they have good reason not to trust the Googles and even the Apples of the world.

Fair enough.

Anyway, we'll see.

You have to tell me this.

What?

When are we going to have autonomous cars?

I know it's on a tangent, but I just want to know.

Not today.

I want to know.

Not today.

Not today?

Not today.

What about 2030?

tomorrow i'll ask elon he's coming to code we'll ask you should come out and ask him yourself um soonish soonish not ish who knows not for a while all right andrew one more quick break and we'll be back for predictions

avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin?

Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is?

With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro.

You just have to hire one.

You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app.

Download today.

This month on Explain It to Me, we're talking about all things wellness.

We spend nearly $2 trillion on things that are supposed to make us well.

Collagen smoothies and cold plunges, Pilates classes, and fitness trackers.

But what does it actually mean to be well?

Why do we want that that so badly?

And is all this money really making us healthier and happier?

That's this month on Explain It To Me, presented by Pureleaf.

Okay, Andrew, as you know, every week we demand a prediction from Scott and other guest hosts.

So I would like your prediction, please.

My prediction is

that by

let's call it October, the Federal Reserve really is going to

pull back on the punch bowl.

And we are going to see the combination of the pulling back of the punch bowl by the Federal Reserve and the pulling of stimulus checks and unemployment checks and all of that actually start to show itself for the first time.

And it's going to get a little dicey in October.

People think that.

I've been reading a lot of these newsletters that are saying this October is not going to be a good time for skulks i you know what newsletters are you reading these days hopefully there's a still i'm reading a lot of the puck ones what there's one there's a good one called deal book there's a good there's a good one yeah deal book i read you of course i read you but i heard

let me ask you a question so the pulling of stimulus checks and what the punch bowl explain what this punch bowl they've been doing this thing and it has a letters what's it called QE whatever QE infinity uh quantitative easy infinity we we are basically giving we're printing money like it's going out of style yeah explain that for regular people I i can't i always forget it the myth i mean the best way to explain what's happening right now is that for many many years now we have continued to uh print money and lower interest rates to next to nothing so that basically money becomes free if you go get a mortgage today it's i know i just got one tiny i mean it's so great it's so great for you i hope fantastic i know capture a 30-year fixed mortgage because who knows what they're going to be then and so that's right you know at some point uh they're going to pull the punch bowl away from the party and say, no, no, no, we're going to increase interest rates.

So Jerome Powell's been a punch bowl spiker, in other words?

Oh, absolutely.

Is he going to be replaced?

Let me push you on this prediction.

He will not be replaced.

I'm very confident he will not be replaced.

You can call me on it

when he does.

All right.

Why?

Why?

Tell me why.

Because lots of people think they're going to pick, they name some other people.

I feel like ultimately he's done a pretty great job.

I think you have Janet Yellen, the Treasury Secretary, who likes him, thinks he's done a good job, thinks the market trusts him.

The markets trust him.

And there is this sort of strange dynamic between the markets and the economy.

And if the markets don't trust you, I think that's a dangerous place to be too.

So I think there's the devil you know versus the devil you don't.

Even if he's pulling the punch, and the stimulus choice, I agree with you.

It's really interesting to see what will happen with people going back to work everywhere you go for hire, hire, for hire, for hire.

And then, by the way,

throw in where we are in the pandemic.

And there are, you know,

lots of restaurants.

I think they might struggle this winter because people are not going to want to eat indoors.

Catering companies that were planning to do indoor weddings or conferences or events or all sorts of things that aren't going to get the business.

So I think it's going to be a little bit more challenging than it has been.

All right.

All right.

That's an excellent prediction.

All right.

You had two there.

You have Powell is staying in and get careful for October.

I'm so glad I got my mortgage.

Anyway, thank you so much, Andrew.

As usual, you've been excellent and you win the whole award.

No, you don't.

I got the job.

I got the job.

Yeah, no, no, no, maybe, maybe you will.

Who knows?

If Scott doesn't behave, that could be a possibility.

Anyway, don't forget if there is a story in the news and you're curious about and want to hear our opinion on, go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for the show.

Andrew, please read us out.

Today's show is produced by by Lara Naiman, Caroline Shagren, and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Endradot engineered this episode.

Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or Frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media.

We're back next week with another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Support for the show comes from Mercury.

What if banking did more?

Because to you, it's more than an invoice.

It's your hard work becoming revenue.

It's more than a wire.

It's payroll for your team.

It's more than a deposit.

It's landing your fundraise.

The truth is, banking can do more.

Mercury brings all the ways you use money into a single product that feels extraordinary to use.

Visit mercury.com to join over 200,000 entrepreneurs who use Mercury to do more for their business.

Mercury, banking that does more.

Bundle and save with Expedia.

You were made to follow your favorite band and from the front row, we were made to quietly save you more.

Expedia, made to travel.

Savings vary and subject to availability, flight inclusive packages are adult protected.