We're not the only ones obsessed with Preet Bharara. Plus, the vaccine mandate divide and Friend of Pivot Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman

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Speaker 17 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway is vacationing in God knows where.

Speaker 17 This week, I'm happy to be joined by Preet Barara, Scott's favorite person.

Speaker 17 We're so happy to have you here. He's so jealous wherever he is in Visa or wherever the heck.

Speaker 16 Scott. Wait, so you don't know where he is?

Speaker 17 I don't.

Speaker 17 i don't he you know he's got a plan seems irresponsible on someone's part he gets i know that you know but i just let him go and have this buck and all kind of thing for august does he check in yeah yeah yeah he sends texts and if you notice he's been like saying how close he is with anderson cooper online and stuff like that i've seen that you know you promoted that too i did but i i but i've done some ego boosting i know i know but i'm trying to make him feel better for not being here and him being bad about you being here so he's bailing on the job he's on vacation trying to make him feel better yes i am because i gotta he's gotta come come back all fresh and stuff.

Speaker 17 And he's got a real issue with you. He's obsessed with you.

Speaker 16 Just like, for example, Andrew Cuomo, Governor Andrew Cuomo.

Speaker 17 You see how I did that? So

Speaker 17 he issued an 11-page letter on Friday attacking special investigators. He wrote a damning report in his office.

Speaker 17 The letter claimed that investigator June Kim had, quote, unwarranted skepticism of the governor because of Kim's ties to Preet. Can you explain? Yes.
Can you explain, please?

Speaker 17 I want a little bit of your thoughts on this situation.

Speaker 17 What a hot mess.

Speaker 16 So I can explain.

Speaker 16 It has been suggested to me that in this letter sent by my former friend, Paul Fishman, who was the U.S. attorney in New Jersey,

Speaker 16 in which I'm mentioned 33 times.

Speaker 17 Yeah, 33, an 11-page letter.

Speaker 16 33 times.

Speaker 16 33 times. I'm a podcaster now and a commentator.
Commentator. I have no public office.
I have no subpoena power. I have nothing to do with this investigation.

Speaker 16 And yet my name is invoked again and again and again. And I guess the premise is that once upon a time,

Speaker 16 I was the U.S. attorney and we did some investigations.
And June is a really good friend of mine.

Speaker 16 And so as they say in the letter multiple times, at various junctures, Andrew Cuomo seems to have done things to harm my career, among other things. It's reported that he told Trump to fire me.

Speaker 16 On another occasion, he readily admits that he called up the

Speaker 16 Obama administration and told them, don't make me the attorney general.

Speaker 16 And so therefore, because he tried to screw me in various career ways, June Kim, my friend,

Speaker 16 is in some ways biased it makes no sense by the way they didn't make any of these objections of billions i know i can get if it's an episode billions but you know they're always cross doing each other but does it make any sense so i'm i'm a little close to the matter does it make any sense if i'm watching billions yes but otherwise no this is here to my favorite sentence yeah go ahead please do and i i want i want to know if ordinary people understand this argument okay all right okay so in the letter claiming bias on the part of mr kim they refer to me and say, quote, during speeches and interviews, back when I was his attorney, during speeches and interviews, Mr.

Speaker 16 Barara repeatedly articulated his deep distrust of politicians in Albany and his intent and eagerness to probe deeply to find evidence of wrongdoing.

Speaker 16 It is reasonable for our client to question whether Mr. Kim shared those views.
Well, I hope he did.

Speaker 16 Don't you hope that Prosperity

Speaker 17 a thing or two about probing deeply.

Speaker 17 But in any case,

Speaker 17 do you have any problem with him? No. Didn't he get you fired? No, probably not.

Speaker 16 Trump didn't what he didn't want.

Speaker 16 You don't think so.

Speaker 16 I don't don't believe so. I mean, look, I don't think he's going to be afraid of the family.
I don't think you like him.

Speaker 17 No, very few people do it. I mean, from what I can understand, and you know, this idea also, just on the substance from narcissistic, yeah.

Speaker 16 This idea that someone has investigated someone once, and by the way, in connection with that investigation,

Speaker 16 was involved in a decision not to bring charges. Yeah, he didn't.
Andrew Cuomo was not charged. Other people were.
He was not. Yes.

Speaker 16 And the idea that you can't investigate again would mean that no prosecutor could ever investigate somebody or prosecute somebody twice, which happens all the time, which Andrew Cuomo himself did because he was the attorney general and a line prosecutor at some time.

Speaker 16 So it's look, it's a distraction, like a lot of people do. And I'll stand by the other, the other complaint they make about me.
I'll stand by my comparison between Andrew Cuomo and Donald Trump.

Speaker 16 And maybe I'll appear in another letter.

Speaker 17 Yeah, that's right. You are.
And you have said that. Can you illuminate me on that? By the way, June isn't your guy, right? That's the plan here.
Like you're using him to get back in Andrew.

Speaker 17 He's your guy.

Speaker 16 He's my guy. We don't have guys.
I know.

Speaker 16 Maybe that's how it works at Andrew Cuomo's. Oh, he's this guy.

Speaker 17 I know he's groomed me. I can see him saying it.

Speaker 17 So what do you think is going to happen here from a legal point of view?

Speaker 16 So for the important news, we're recording this on Monday afternoon.

Speaker 16 His chief aide, as people refer to her as the most powerful non-elected person in New York.

Speaker 17 His guy.

Speaker 16 His guy. She's a

Speaker 17 woman. I know.

Speaker 16 Melissa DeRosa stepped down yesterday.

Speaker 16 And, you know, from what I can tell, and having lived in the state for a while and understanding some things, that is a terrible sign for Andrew Cuomo.

Speaker 16 You know, all these arguments that he and his lawyers are making making tend to be distractions, tend to be cherry-picked.

Speaker 16 The one thing they're correct about is there is no formal adjudication of this report, right? It's just a report.

Speaker 16 And then other bodies can decide what to do with them, like a DA's office or like private civil lawsuits, or most importantly, the state legislature.

Speaker 16 And they can do with this information what they will. And so it's really a political argument now.
Yeah.

Speaker 16 And if Andrew has lost, you know, and it was a very sort of tight and terse statement that she made with no reference to him, no gratitude to him.

Speaker 17 All right, what's going to happen to him? So, Lieutenant Governor,

Speaker 17 I want to move to another topic. Kathy Horchall is reportedly promoting

Speaker 16 Hochul, excuse me.

Speaker 17 What do you think is going to happen here?

Speaker 16 I think nobody thought anything would happen for a while until the assembly impeached, which would cause him to have to step aside during the pendency of the trial in the Senate.

Speaker 16 I think he's not going to wait. I think the good money is that he will finally see the writing on the wall

Speaker 16 and step down sooner rather than later.

Speaker 17 Oh, interesting. I don't think so.
I think he's a narcissistic prick.

Speaker 16 You want to take a bet?

Speaker 17 Okay, I will, but you probably know. You probably know because you have all the guidelines.

Speaker 16 I don't know anything. I just, I just observed.
I'm just

Speaker 17 a narcissistic prick. I think that is really where I stand and go.
He reminds me of a lot of people I cover. You know, he's just not going to stand down.

Speaker 17 Anyway, speaking of not standing down, Chinese giant Tencent faces a lawsuit from Beijing prosecutors who say the WeChat messaging app does not comply with laws protecting minors.

Speaker 17 Now, Apple, just we're going to talk about that in a second, but you know, WeChat's youth mode limits young users' access to some games, which which is astonishing.

Speaker 17 They can do this in this country when people go mad. And the filing did not specify how WeChat youth mode broke Chinese law.
But they're really pushing hard from a legal point of view on tech giants.

Speaker 17 They can just do it, right? As I mean, compared to here, as someone to do. They can do whatever they want.

Speaker 16 Yeah. What do you think? As you mentioned, I don't know enough about it because as the reporting suggests, there's no basis.
Right.

Speaker 16 Usually when you bring actions like this on the part of the government, you have to have some specificity like you allege.

Speaker 16 You know, I didn't spend a long time being a prosecutor in Beijing, so so I don't

Speaker 16 know a lot about this.

Speaker 17 Would you like to have power like this just to do what you want?

Speaker 16 No, I like democracy better, such as it is at this moment. And we'll talk about that too, obviously.

Speaker 16 But

Speaker 16 what is interesting about this, I think, will be the relevance to our later conversation about what Apple is doing with iMessage.

Speaker 16 And one of the arguments that we will discuss is even if it's all well and good here in the United States, where we have rules and we have some accountability, once you allow a certain kind of surveillance in other countries like China,

Speaker 16 that's where the problem lies. Yeah.
100%. So I think this is a portent for that.

Speaker 17 Yes, that's a very good point. All right.
Time for the big story.

Speaker 17 Companies and governments around the world are weighing vaccine mandates, but citizens and employees are voicing opposition, even as the death toll from the Delta variant grows.

Speaker 17 United Airlines will require its 67,000 U.S. employees to get vaccinated by October 25th.
This is a day after I did an interview with the head of American Airlines, who said he wasn't going to.

Speaker 17 He got a lot of heat for that. In France, citizens must be vaccinated or have a recent negative COVID test to enter cafes or ride inner city trains.

Speaker 17 The requirement has prompted four weeks of protests and drew almost a quarter million people to rallies this past Saturday. Amazon has no COVID-19 mandate yet, what vaccine mandate.

Speaker 17 The tech giant reportedly fears an employee walkout and labor shortage if the mandate is implemented. That said, other tech companies absolutely have mandates.
I think Google and some others.

Speaker 17 New York City has mandated all of its 300,000 municipal workers get vaccinated or agree to weekly testing by September 13th. The move has been opposed by several of the city's unions.

Speaker 17 Pre, explain this to me with the lawsuits. Go for it.
Laws. They should lawsuit.

Speaker 16 Well, the lawsuits seem weak and frivolous lawsuits are brought all the time. And we see that in the course of the prior administration as well.

Speaker 16 And it seems to me the nub of the lawsuits is the distinction between something being a permanently approved vaccine versus something under emergency youth authorization.

Speaker 16 Now, I think the better lawyers who have examined this and will be defending these things understand that even emergency youth is strong enough and tested enough that it can be required.

Speaker 16 And so I think those will fail. But what was interesting to me about this debate is at some point we're going to have permanent use authorization.

Speaker 17 Very soon.

Speaker 16 Right. So that to the extent these lawsuits are relying on that distinction, that will soon be gone.
And what are the arguments going to be there?

Speaker 17 That this, who knows about these vaccines, but they'll have been approved.

Speaker 16 Right. But the motivation of the people who are making, bringing these suits, I think some of them care about the distinction between temporary and

Speaker 16 emergency and permanent. Some people don't.
Some of them just don't want anybody to give them a jab ever.

Speaker 16 And so those legal arguments are maybe relied upon too heavily. The other thing is, you know, some of these businesses are saying that there's this mandate, but not tomorrow.

Speaker 16 You don't have to finish by tomorrow, sometime in the future. In many cases, likely after they will have permanent use.
And I wonder if that's intentional. Right.

Speaker 16 So that argument is taken away from them in the coming weeks. Yeah.

Speaker 17 So what do you make of all the resistance? I mean, all these, like, there's all these incredible stories.

Speaker 17 A story in the Wall Street Journal about a nurse whose parents died, and then she doesn't want to take the vaccine. And she's like, it's almost like people want to blame us for this.

Speaker 17 I'm like, yeah, I want to blame you for this. And then there was a guy in Texas who was a very anti-vax type person.
He died of COVID in five days after getting it, I think, something like that.

Speaker 17 Obviously, there's a lot of Facebook stuff where people are saying, I should have taken the vaccine. Can I have it now? And they're like, no.

Speaker 16 There's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of politicizing.
Which I don't get, right?

Speaker 16 Because all the people who supported Trump and say he should get credit for Operation Warp Speed don't want to take the vaccine.

Speaker 16 There's a very sad story by a doctor in Alabama who talks about patient after patient who gets sick and said, now I wish I could take the vaccine.

Speaker 16 I think we should spread those stories more, not in a judgmental way.

Speaker 16 Even though I understand the urge to be judgmental. Yeah, really.

Speaker 17 I'm sort of, it's interesting because I think fear does more than coddling, honestly. You know, let's give someone a beer or $5 or whatever the heck you want to give them to $50.

Speaker 17 I do think fear does, is what causes people to do things.

Speaker 16 It is, but also, you know, I think the carrot works better than the stick, according to some things that I've read, right?

Speaker 16 If you, if you were told you can't fly, you can't go to a concert without getting vaccinated, that's maybe going to be worth more to you than 100 bucks.

Speaker 17 Well, is that a carrot or is that punitive? That's a stick, right?

Speaker 16 Well, it's, well, let's call it a carrot. Okay.
All right. Through our rhetorical magic.

Speaker 16 Look, you get this vaccine.

Speaker 16 You get to go see Springsteen and I'm like, I am all out of fucks, I have to say about this.

Speaker 17 I have to, I just am like, I cannot say. I have a young child and I'm like, oh,

Speaker 17 by the way, got in a little bit of trouble. Yesterday hit her head.
We were in the hospital and I was like, oh, great. We're walking into COVID soup and ended up wearing the mask all the time.

Speaker 17 But it was sad. She was real good at it.
And it was really, I just am like, no, this is not something I want for my children, essentially. I don't want this to happen.

Speaker 17 But what do you imagine is going to happen? Will the Biden administration have a vaccine mandate? Is there any possibility of that?

Speaker 16 Well, you know, what's interesting about that is to put the lawyer hat on again for a second, there's a division within the Department of Justice called the Office of Legal Counsel, which was asked to develop an opinion basically saying that governmental entities and private entities can issue mass mandates.

Speaker 16 They don't call them a mandate because they say, we're not sending people to your home and holding you down, but it's a conditional requirement.

Speaker 16 If you don't get the vaccine, then you can't participate in certain things. You can't come to your work as a police officer.
You can't come to your work at the Justice Department.

Speaker 16 And so I think that's a signal that they have strong legal grounds, which goes to your question about lawsuits, for proceeding.

Speaker 16 I think the balance for them is, you know, the people who are pro-Biden are getting the vaccine.

Speaker 16 And the people who are not have to be persuaded in some way that works. Because, you know, Biden's numbers are slipping.
Not that this should be, you know, described

Speaker 16 in a political context, but it is. And the irony is that it's the people who are against Biden who don't want to get vaccinated who are causing a problem for everyone else.

Speaker 16 But that is reducing his numbers among independents also. It's a big catch-22.

Speaker 17 Yeah, 100%. Well, last question on this.
When they're trying to do this, when you're a company, what do they do? You see more activity from companies than you do from governments.

Speaker 17 And obviously, you see some resistance from governments like in Florida and Texas and other places. Not just that, but mask wearing and vaccinations.

Speaker 17 Those are sort of two separate things, but they're together in some way. I never thought vaccines would get dragged into the mask fight, essentially, but that's what's happened.

Speaker 16 Look, there's a combination of things you can do. You can ask for vaccinations, but then in the alternative, you can have, look, you can have religious exemptions.

Speaker 16 There are people who in good faith, and there's a lot of people in bad faith who don't get the injection.

Speaker 16 You can mandate testing.

Speaker 16 The problem population are the people who don't want to get vaccinated, don't want to get tested, and don't want to wear a mask.

Speaker 16 And that's a trifecta for disaster.

Speaker 16 Look, but in your experience, I'm sure you've seen. over and over again that sometimes it's businesses who take the lead yeah

Speaker 17 and they don't mind being food either they don't they'll like come at us Like Walmart.

Speaker 16 Were you surprised by Walmart? No.

Speaker 17 I know, Doug McMillan. No, I don't.
They have, they're a forward-facing company. They have to do that.
You know, when I was interviewing the American Airlines CEO, he was talking about it.

Speaker 17 And I said, I'm not getting on your airline. I said, that's my consumer decision.
You know what I mean? Like, one of your flight attendants coughs on me. I don't want to.
I can still get COVID.

Speaker 17 I don't want to get it.

Speaker 16 So you're going to just use Professor Galloway's jet?

Speaker 17 Yeah, I'm going to use his jet kit.

Speaker 17 Scramble the jets, Galloway.

Speaker 16 He definitely has his pilots vaccinated, right? I don't know.

Speaker 17 I don't know what he does when he leaves the area of this squad cast. I don't know what he does, Pre.
Let's go on a quick break when we get back. Apple doesn't vow place on privacy, like you said.

Speaker 17 Stay with us.

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Speaker 17 We're back. Apple has announced plans to scan images on iPhones and other devices before they're uploaded to iCloud.

Speaker 17 Apple says the program is designed to detect and prevent the sharing of child sexual abuse material. It's called CSAM, I believe.

Speaker 17 The privacy advocates warn that this effectively nullifies Apple's previous commitment to user privacy.

Speaker 17 EFF, not surprisingly, has criticized the move, saying it's impossible to build a client-side scanning system that can only be used for this type of content.

Speaker 17 The move will include scanning iMessages of users younger than 13, as well as updates to Syrian search that will intervene when users search for prohibited material.

Speaker 17 Will Kathgart, the head of WhatsApp, voiced concerned on Twitter. He's a really interesting guy and said the popular chat app will not adopt the system.
So what do you think? What is going on here?

Speaker 16 So, you know, this is just the latest example.

Speaker 16 the latest iteration of a debate that we've had even before modern technology going back to the founding of all republics and we since we first started talking about the social contract right?

Speaker 16 The balance between liberty and security. And I think on both sides of this debate, there are people who too often belittle the other side.
So I think there are privacy advocates, no offense to them,

Speaker 16 who I think are not as concerned about things like child pornography and the manufacturer of child pornography, which

Speaker 17 hurts other things. I think they're willing to

Speaker 16 tolerate it. I see, but you kind of can't have everything.
Yeah, you can't. As soon as you start talking about a balance, you have to figure out where that's struck.

Speaker 16 And some people advocate it for it in one direction versus the other.

Speaker 16 And I think they have to take seriously this issue of so many people being exploited in the most horrific way. I think it was the most awful crime that I ever oversaw the prosecution of.

Speaker 16 On the other hand, you have knee-jerk folks in law enforcement all over the country who poo-poo the need for privacy. And they'll say in every circumstance,

Speaker 16 no matter what the possibilities are, we need a backdoor. So the back door issue came up in San Bernardino some years ago.

Speaker 17 Apple stuck to its guns on that one.

Speaker 16 And so I don't know where the balance is properly struck. I don't love arguments that rely mostly on slippery slope rhetoric.

Speaker 16 You know, the slippery slope gets used too often. It's too easy.
It's too facile. Yeah.
Which is not to say that there may be some problems here.

Speaker 16 Look, it may be that, you know, Apple is my understanding is there are two facets to this. One is they're going to match.

Speaker 16 photos that are conveyed to an existing database of pornography, you know, underage pornographic materials. Yeah.

Speaker 16 And then they're going to scan everything or look at everything for people who are registered as under 13.

Speaker 17 Well, they're going to, once they're uploaded, if they get uploaded, they're iCloud, if they bring it to the cloud, if they keep it on their phones by themselves.

Speaker 17 But the whole point is sharing this stuff, unfortunately. But go ahead.

Speaker 16 Look, maybe there are possibilities of opting out and parents can have a choice about some of these things.

Speaker 16 Maybe there can be ways to get people to not be as concerned by having outside oversight. I know these companies don't like that.

Speaker 16 And sometimes when they do that, as we've seen, it's not done in a fair-minded way or in a way that people respect.

Speaker 17 Okay, you mentioned two things. One was with San Bernardino, which Apple was very strong pushing against James Comey on encryption.
I don't know where you were on that issue.

Speaker 17 And then the second thing was when they took 230 protections away from sex trafficking and some other things. So that was sort of removing immunity from that.
Why do you think Apple's doing this?

Speaker 17 And what did you think at the time when Apple they were vehement about that?

Speaker 16 So I wasn't involved in that. But my sense was it was a business decision.

Speaker 16 And they're very smart. And I understand that there are companies that have philosophies about freedom or about exercise or whatever the case may be, high-minded or low-minded.

Speaker 16 But it's through the prism of business. And my perception always was that in the marketplace, being very, very pro-privacy was important for Apple.
There was a parallel controversy with Microsoft.

Speaker 16 And it's a long story, but we were in litigation with Microsoft over trying to get documents that were kept on servers abroad. And it was a ludicrous argument in my view.

Speaker 16 They were drawing a distinction between servers abroad and the United States. And my view, that was a business decision, too.
You want to come across as being very, very, very pro-privacy.

Speaker 16 And the question I have here is,

Speaker 16 did some research about their business prospects and the views of the public change to cause them to have a different point of view now than they did during San Bernardino? What do you think?

Speaker 17 I think they've seen, they realize the fist. I think they're doubling down on this idea as we're not trying to kill humanity.
You know what I mean? Like that's the brand right now.

Speaker 17 We're not Facebook to stealing all your privacy. And at the same time, they're like, but we're going to protect your children.

Speaker 17 It's a very difficult threat, a needle to threat for them, I have to say, because it does sort of give me the creeps, right? I have kids who have these phones and they're young enough.

Speaker 17 You know, I'm like, what are they going to do to those phones? And I definitely have to study it. But at the same time, I would trust Apple more than others.

Speaker 17 But at the same time, it couldn't, you know, speaking of a cliche, open the door for anybody mandating that Apple must search for lots of things.

Speaker 17 I mean, as a prosecutor, did you want to get your myths on this stuff?

Speaker 16 Yeah, look, there's a reason why this kind of technology comes into the debate and to the fore when you're talking about the most serious kinds of things, terrorism and the manufacture of child pornography.

Speaker 16 It's hard to come up with anything worse than those two things. I think there would be

Speaker 16 a lot more pushback. and even a lot more debate if we were talking about lesser kinds of crimes.
Prosecutors will use whatever tools that they have.

Speaker 16 And if they understand that a private company has the ability to get certain kinds of information yeah they will use that from their perspective in good faith to protect the public and hold bad violent people accountable there'll always be someone oh let's get this guy let's oh yeah but this guy's bad too like you know what i mean like there's never stopping

Speaker 16 law enforcement folks will also tell you that the most private place that exists is your home and the constitution has a fourth amendment which says only

Speaker 16 that

Speaker 16 you can't have unreasonable searches and seizures. What's a reasonable search and seizure?

Speaker 16 And I've heard law enforcement people, and I understand that point of view, and I also understand the other point of view. But to give the law enforcement perspective for a moment, again,

Speaker 16 if it is the case that our Constitution has recognized and the courts have recognized that even in the most private place that we have, you know, the bedroom in our home, on our phone, that if there's probable cause to believe they're fruits of a crime, you can go look there.

Speaker 16 Why is a phone so much different than your bedroom? That's the argument.

Speaker 17 Yeah, I think ultimately if it puts it gets put in bad hands, I mean, these things, we've listened we've opened the door a long time ago by using these things.

Speaker 17 And I think they're just too juicy for law enforcement not to want to do. And I suspect that Apple

Speaker 17 wants to be the privacy company, but not too private, right? I think they're, and they were going to be acted upon. This is something, let me just tell you, when I'm working on my book on

Speaker 17 Silicon Valley, and one of the things that was memorable to me when the Communications Decency Act did pass, there was another part of it that declared unconstitutional.

Speaker 17 But I was at a lunch where, of all people, do you remember Fawn Hall? Yeah, of course. She was working on this stuff because she was obsessed with pornography on the internet, child pornography.

Speaker 17 Not obsessed, but she was concerned, but a lot concerned. And so she had a lunch where she had an envelope that she gave out and it was child pornography on the internet at the time.

Speaker 16 And I was like, oh, hello.

Speaker 17 Was she arrested on this? No, no, but it was really,

Speaker 17 it was really,

Speaker 17 you sort of get, you have the emotional side of it as a parent. You're like, yes, get these people.

Speaker 17 Look how easy it is they have to use these tools. And then you want the companies also to protect you.
It's really, it's a very difficult issue.

Speaker 16 Look, it's the hardest. And by the way, the other complicating factor in this is politicians in the middle in particular understand this.

Speaker 16 And they have constituents who are privacy advocates and they have constituents who are law enforcement advocates. And during my time in the Senate, I saw most of the time they wanted to punt.

Speaker 17 Punt it, not deal with it. But as a prosecutor, you wanted this stuff, right?

Speaker 16 Wouldn't you like?

Speaker 17 Isn't it the best way to get information now?

Speaker 16 Or the easiest? Yeah, with proper controls and a judge's supervision.

Speaker 16 You know, prosecutors have a view of their own magnanimity and believe that they won't abuse it.

Speaker 16 But we understand, and look, I have some perspective from that time. It's been four and a half years since I've been there.
And I think I understand other perspectives better than I did,

Speaker 16 which doesn't make the decision any easier, doesn't make the balancing any easier.

Speaker 16 And by the way, as you know better than almost anybody, this privacy debate is a little bit funny sometimes because at the same time that people are fighting tooth and nail to make sure that the government doesn't have access to certain kinds of things, these tech companies do.

Speaker 16 They do. And they make claims, they make claims, I guess, that they can't see them, that they don't look at them.

Speaker 17 They cannot. They do.

Speaker 16 But they can't.

Speaker 16 Right, you think they can't.

Speaker 16 But they could change it. I mean, the same argument applies to them.
They could change it.

Speaker 16 We have given all this information to them. We've given access to all our information to them.

Speaker 16 And yet we trust them. I don't know.

Speaker 17 Even the Apple, which is, I think, the most privacy conscious.

Speaker 17 I can show you stuff on your phone that they've been saving there locally, but still there, watching you and tracking you in ways that it's for use on the phone.

Speaker 17 It's always some excuse that they have it. In any case, what worries me, and then we're now going to get to our friend and pivot, is when you have this ability, what if a crony gets into office?

Speaker 17 What if that James Clark guy, and if you'd like to have a comment about him, please do, did what Trump said. Like, if you get some president who feels like doing something,

Speaker 16 Jeff Clark, right?

Speaker 17 If you get someone who is willing to go along with it, it's problematic. Like, they could pick anything, you know, or Governor Cuomo.
I think Preet. Let's investigate Preet because whatever.

Speaker 16 These are the pitfalls of a free society that sees an emergence of technology that we've not seen before.

Speaker 17 Yeah, exactly. Well, speaking of what.

Speaker 16 Maybe Lieutenant Colonel can be.

Speaker 17 Yes, exactly. Let's bring in our friend of Pivot.

Speaker 17 He's retired Lieutenant Colonel of the U.S. Army, who served as a key witness in President Trump's first impeachment trial.

Speaker 17 He covers the episode and its fallout in a new memoir, Here Right Matters, an American Story. Welcome, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vinman.
How you doing?

Speaker 19 Hi, Kara. Hi, Preet.
I'm doing okay. I actually was just thinking about your conversation on Apple and privacy and disruptive technology.

Speaker 19 I wrote an article for the diplomat on this topic about disruptive technology and

Speaker 19 understanding the future trends, including artificial intelligence and the need. I brought in Isaac Asimov and the three rules.
We should have some guide rule,

Speaker 19 some guardrails to protect ourselves against this. So it's fascinating.
I'm glad you guys are having this conversation.

Speaker 17 So in that vein, let's recap to our listeners. You were present for a telephone call between President Trump and the newly elected president of Ukraine.

Speaker 17 On that call, Trump suggested that Volodymyr Zelensky investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter in exchange for U.S. support.
The U.S.

Speaker 17 had at the time suspended millions of dollars of foreign aid to the Ukraine. And you reported this call up the chain of command.
This was just a regular telephone call.

Speaker 17 So you were not surveilling it, but you were on the call as happens when the president talks to various foreign leaders, different people are on the calls.

Speaker 17 Can you talk a little bit about what we, you and I had a long interview post when you left and when you were leaving. Talk about where you've been since then.
Then we want to talk about the book.

Speaker 16 Yeah, it's

Speaker 19 I guess it's been about nine or ten months since we last spoke. It's been an interesting trek.
I think last time we spoke, there was a lot more ambiguity about what my future might hold.

Speaker 19 There's still an enormous amount of ambiguity now. There's some sort of wishful thinking about whistleblowers doing the right thing and then kind of landing on their feet.

Speaker 19 I think Preet knows this maybe even better than most. That's not what usually happens with whistleblowers.

Speaker 19 Their life is turned upside down. They have to recover from a massive upheaval.
In a lot of ways, I've had a similar experience, but I was just well postured to kind of recover.

Speaker 19 I think there's a breed of resilience that runs deep in my family based on a background and kind of starting over and restarting over is the story I talk about in Herite Matters that's allowed me to kind of land on my feet, but still with an enormous amount of ambiguity moving forward.

Speaker 19 You know, I haven't quite figured out.

Speaker 17 What do you mean ambiguity? What is it?

Speaker 17 People are like, oh, you, that kind of thing?

Speaker 16 Or what?

Speaker 19 So, no, it's not like even external or towards me, although there is some of that, you know, it's internal about about what I want to do.

Speaker 19 I mean, I made a declaration back then about staying active on national security, advocating for public service, accountability, and demanding values-based leadership.

Speaker 19 I've been active on those areas, but those are kind of conceptual as opposed to what is it that I'm going to do for a living.

Speaker 17 You would have stayed in the army, correct? You would have stayed.

Speaker 19 I guess if I just stayed quiet, I would have been out of war college at this point in a kind of a high-value critical assignment for U.S. national security somewhere overseas at this point.

Speaker 19 But that's not the way things are. And now I'm trying to find my way invested in completing my PhD at Johns Hopkins.
I'm basically all but dissertation at this point. So coursework is done.

Speaker 16 So I want to ask you a question about the parallels between what you experienced in that July 25th call and some of the things we're hearing about now. And I'm struck by how similar they are.

Speaker 16 In your case, what you write about and what you experienced was a call between the President of the United States and the leader of Ukraine.

Speaker 16 And part of the message was, could you announce an investigation to Joe and Hunter Biden? Not necessarily open one, but announce one. And then he knew he could run with that.

Speaker 16 And literally the quote we have from the acting deputy attorney general's notes from the final weeks of the Trump administration was Trump saying, listen, all you have, I'm paraphrasing, all you have to do is say the election was corrupt.

Speaker 16 And I'll do the rest with the Republicans. Can you speak to how you react to that given the experience you had and how similar they are and what it tells you about that administration?

Speaker 19 You know, it's interesting. I guess I'm past any point of shock having with these revelations, just because

Speaker 19 it's almost exactly the same thing. He wasn't really even looking for dirt on Joe Biden.
He just wanted an announcement of an investigation by the Ukrainians into Joe Biden.

Speaker 19 So it's the same exact thing. And you would think that, you know, there would be a lesson learned from impeachment.
There wasn't. Part of that was because the

Speaker 19 Senate Republicans failed to do their job and live up to their oath and hold the president accountable, whether that was for removal or even something as simple as a censure.

Speaker 19 Instead, they went all in, basically encouraging the president to pursue.

Speaker 19 That's not a stretch. They encouraged the president to continue doing what he did.

Speaker 19 And subsequently, we had a massive mismanagement of a COVID pen, of a pandemic, a global pandemic, that, in my mind, there is zero doubt had cost

Speaker 19 hundreds of thousands of lives. If it was managed properly, we would have not had those kinds of casualties.
The impact on the economy would not be huge.

Speaker 19 In a parallel universe in which Mike Pence was the president, because Donald Trump was removed, there is little doubt that the pandemic would have been handled much more effectively.

Speaker 19 And having failed to learn a lesson there, having inflamed protests in the summer of 2020, the president moved in to try to steal an election.

Speaker 19 And he's the one that obviously tried to steal an election with the same tactics.

Speaker 17 The same tactics.

Speaker 17 The same tactics.

Speaker 19 Fortunately for us, he's just not very effective. And usually he does as much harm to himself as he does to U.S.
national security and so forth. And he wasn't able to pull it off.

Speaker 19 But we came pretty close, in my view.

Speaker 17 Yeah. One of the things, I had George come in as a guest host the other night, and he said

Speaker 17 he has all bad intentions, but not very effective,

Speaker 17 which is, I guess, good, but

Speaker 17 not that good.

Speaker 19 That was my experience.

Speaker 17 One of the things you had is the book deals with your relationship with your father, who was a Trump supporter. I don't know if he still is.
Can you tell us how you dad? My mom is a Trump supporter.

Speaker 17 I have relatives who are Trump supporters, especially a Fox News watcher. She was an anti-Trump person.
I have tapes of her saying what an awful person he is, and then suddenly was not.

Speaker 17 It was really a shift. I don't know what went on with your dad, but can you talk a little bit about that? Because hearing you doing something that, you know,

Speaker 17 quote, hurts Donald Trump.

Speaker 17 Talk about that experience, because it's disappointing, to say the least. Sure.

Speaker 19 It is.

Speaker 19 Although, you know,

Speaker 19 my dad, I'd never couch him as

Speaker 19 disappointing. He's always

Speaker 19 back in my corner 100%, even during this, where he thought the best thing to do would be to, you know, march into the president's office and

Speaker 19 seek accommodation and say, how do we work this out? But for my, yeah, I mean, this is the way he thought it should be.

Speaker 16 Yeah. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 19 And frankly, if I did do that, things could have worked out very differently. But for my dad, he's a product of his history, 47 years in living under communism.

Speaker 19 And in those 47 years, recognizing that communism was a failed enterprise and, frankly, swing the pendulum swinging in the complete opposite direction towards, you know, conservatism, unhealthy kind of conservatism, uh, as a complete, absolute rejection against communism.

Speaker 19 This is not an uncommon phenomenon amongst

Speaker 19 Cubans, you know, Cubans, Venezuelans, and so forth. And he was a product of that.
And then, in addition to that, he also kind of appreciated that maybe something like Donald Trump,

Speaker 19 a non-politician, a businessman, could kind of shake up

Speaker 19 the swamp

Speaker 19 and take this country in a new direction. So that's his starting point going in.
And that's his starting point with his counsel to me. And we had plenty of disagreements on

Speaker 19 what kind of harm or good the president was causing to the United States.

Speaker 17 But what you did, he supported you for what you were doing? Or did he say don't do it?

Speaker 17 Because your brother also got pulled into this yeah when he didn't know any any better

Speaker 19 when he kind of just saw uh when he was listening to fox news and the president's rhetoric he he he thought you know the president was uh was on the right foot but as he learned more as he as my my mom actually said no more fox news in the house so as as once he stopped kind of getting that programming He started to listen to

Speaker 19 the bigger context and understand what's going on.

Speaker 19 See my own contribution. He had absolute faith in the fact that I was being truthful and just kind of relaying the circumstances factually.

Speaker 19 He broke with the president.

Speaker 19 And then, of course, when the president attacked me personally for just simply telling the truth, this is one of the, you know, when we did this CBS Sunday morning interview, he was like,

Speaker 19 in his view, I just did the right thing. And the president attacked me.
That is, that's something that he just can

Speaker 19 reconcile with. It wasn't palatable.
And he broke with the president.

Speaker 16 You know what he needed more of? He needed more of Vox Media

Speaker 16 and Kara Swisher and

Speaker 16 some others.

Speaker 16 Can I ask you sort of a more fundamental question about what you've learned about character and judgment and personality and what it is about people,

Speaker 16 what qualities of personality cause a person to be more likely to stand up in the way you did and be courageous in the way you did. than other folks.

Speaker 16 I've talked about this with Michael Lewis, who identified for me the quality of self-possession.

Speaker 16 People who don't care as much about what other people think and are very, not arrogant or conceited, but are just comfortable with themselves.

Speaker 16 Do you have a view on the kinds of things that make a difference? Because I think it's important to figuring out how we educate people, how we train future leaders as well.

Speaker 19 I'm going to start out with kind of the more controversial characteristics and then I'll work to the safer ones. But I think there's a little bit of an irreverence that I guess I've always had.

Speaker 19 And I'd say with regards to the office of the president, I've always held that office in extremely high regard.

Speaker 19 Frankly, not until that phone call did I really fully kind of believe that the president was behind this enterprise.

Speaker 19 I thought it was do-gooders in quotes trying to ingratiate themselves with the president, trying to advance the president's interests.

Speaker 19 But I refuse to believe that the president himself, no matter the fact I've seen him in action and I knew that he was kind of a corrupt, kind of transactional, self-serving individual, did I believe it because of the reverence of their office?

Speaker 19 But in my background, there is a bit of an irreverence streak that

Speaker 16 helps.

Speaker 19 And that's an interesting trait to have for an army officer that spent their career in the military.

Speaker 16 That's not on the checklist, right? It's not irreverence. It's right after it follows orders well.

Speaker 17 Well, yes, it is. Yes, it is.
That's not true.

Speaker 17 Look at Millie. Look at, no, I think people do.
You're supposed to think for yourself. Correct.

Speaker 19 I do, but you take a critical eye and try to kind of look at the merits of a situation on both sides, juxtaposing views. And it's important.

Speaker 19 I had the chance to work for Chairman Dunford, who I thought was a superb leader, and he welcomed that kind of feedback.

Speaker 19 General McKenzie, who's now the CENTCOM commander, was a very, very strong supporter. And, you know, at one point called me in and encouraged me.

Speaker 19 One of the last conversations I had before I left the Pentagon was like, you're not a typical lieutenant colonel.

Speaker 19 You're doing great. Speak your mind.
I had plenty of leaders tell me to do that, encouraged me and kind of nurtured that healthy, respectful irreverence. So I think that's one trait.
Another one is

Speaker 19 having a sense of yourself and having a bit of a

Speaker 19 already having a moral compass

Speaker 19 as a background to build on. I think I got a lot of that from my father, who did not tolerate dishonesty.
And that was made clear to us from an early age. And something that I certainly

Speaker 19 instilled with my subordinates in the military, with my daughter, it's just important because this concept of once you lose trust,

Speaker 19 it's nearly impossible to regain it.

Speaker 16 I

Speaker 19 too often maybe give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. And then it's hard to kind of recover.
But that's a starting point for me.

Speaker 17 Okay. So we've heard reports that military leadership worried about a coup in the waning days of the Trump administration.
Do you think their concerns were valid? This was General Milley and others.

Speaker 17 You said they wanted you to think for yourselves, and it looks like they were doing some of that. Do you think the military would have resisted a more organized coup attempt on January 6th?

Speaker 19 I think the military was

Speaker 19 dead set on not being involved at all in domestic politics. And there was a

Speaker 19 right. But we were in an uncharted territory and in a world in which the president was able to effectively rouse his constituency.
I mean, frankly, already radicalized, deeply radicalized to violence.

Speaker 19 And they secured the Capitol building. They basically held the White House.

Speaker 19 And really, law enforcement wasn't well positioned to respond. I don't know

Speaker 19 what the right answer would be, but it doesn't seem like the military could completely sit out on the sidelines as our democracy was being stolen.

Speaker 19 Let's say in a more effective world in which you had a competent president that was able to actually realize the enterprise, sitting on the sidelines, I don't know if that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 19 My criticism of the military is that they're too prepared to take half measures. I think that we've seen that play out over a couple of decades of war.
They took at best half measures.

Speaker 19 Maybe that's even a kind judgment with regards to, you know, defending somebody that was in a position to not defend themselves, me in uniform.

Speaker 19 I didn't have the ability to defend myself, I didn't have the ability to say anything, and they were willing to have me sacrificed.

Speaker 19 Encouraging the president to continue to pursue coercive tactics to kind of break the military like he did so many other institutions under his watch, you know, not break completely, but harm him and have them bend to his will with the State Department, with defense.

Speaker 19 And I guess, just to finish this idea very quickly i'm concerned that the military in

Speaker 19 being weak need

Speaker 19 with responding to each one of these different events me the protests in the summer of 2020 uh the president's rhetoric about you know stealing the election uh whether he was encouraged to then you know potentially leverage the military

Speaker 19 either actually have them to come out in support of him or to somehow indicate that the military was behind him as he you know as he tried to

Speaker 19 tempt his coup. I don't think the military did any favors to itself by completely sitting out on the sidelines.
It's just not right.

Speaker 17 Interesting. Pre?

Speaker 16 I wonder, Lieutenant Colonel, aside from President Trump, is there some person in this whole saga that you write about and that you endured who disappointed you the most?

Speaker 16 Either in the way that they didn't support you or didn't speak up, or they turned out to be someone that you didn't think that they were?

Speaker 19 Yes. Yes, that is very much so.

Speaker 19 What of the last acts that Chairman Dunford did on his way out in his just, I think it is his last day, as he put out a statement to CNN talking about, you know, recognizing that I was under attack, that he attested to my capabilities, my integrity, and so forth.

Speaker 19 And that's it. After that, it was crickets.
And I don't, this is not a criticism against the Department of Defense or the Army as a whole.

Speaker 19 They're honorable institutions filled with tremendous public servants, selfless servants.

Speaker 19 But the leadership, I think, frankly failed both me and the nation in certain regards in not holding the line to the ethical standards and principles of the institution.

Speaker 19 The leadership, not the institution. And that's frankly

Speaker 19 an area that I'm

Speaker 19 increasingly more comfortable to talk about because it's a hard place to go to, frankly, for me as a career military officer. But we are in a place where we're not in a state of war.

Speaker 19 We are coming coming out of two decades of kind of a the military failing to achieve it the military and political objectives and there's a moment of introspection uh as to why these things occurred and uh possibly for us to be able to address these issues and become stronger so that's where i i would come in on on criticism and then house leadership i mean gop leadership that has failed to live up to their obligations and their oath they've moved on and disappointed us on other things yeah so i have this question for you it's a serious question but perhaps frivolous so i i can only find one interesting omission from your book, Here Write Matters.

Speaker 16 And it's it's the lack of an index,

Speaker 16 which is interesting to me. You wrote a Washington book without an index.

Speaker 16 And I wonder if that was intentional to drive Washington people crazy, because how the hell do you expect Washington people to read your book unless they can first turn to the index and find their name?

Speaker 16 Answer, sir.

Speaker 19 You know, that's.

Speaker 19 That is an excellent question. Actually,

Speaker 17 33 times in an 11-page letter. Anyway, sorry.
Pre-wanted by the music.

Speaker 19 This is beautiful because Jennifer Pritzker, my benefactor and my position at Lawfair, actually asked the same question. And I didn't have a good response.

Speaker 19 I'm writing a book about, I don't want people just to flip to the portion of the book that has their name in it.

Speaker 19 I've got the second book project that's a dissertation that's going to have plenty of index and bibliography. I guess I didn't even think about it.

Speaker 19 But that's a good point.

Speaker 19 Keep that in mind.

Speaker 17 I'm going to ask a better last question. What do you think is going to happen to Trump? Like, look, you've been through the ringer with the right-wing media, but they've stuck with him.

Speaker 17 So has the GOP, who disappointed you.

Speaker 17 I'm sorry. We constantly complained by the GOP.
They attacked you as un-American, citing your family's immigration history.

Speaker 17 What do you think is going to happen with Trump and his movement as you look at it? They toppled you.

Speaker 19 Well, I guess, you know, we're even. I got him impeached.

Speaker 16 I got him impeached. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 17 Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 16 That's true.

Speaker 19 But, you know, honestly, I'm less concerned about Trump in 2024. I'm much more concerned about his movement.
The reason is that, you know, he's basically taking slivers out of his pie.

Speaker 19 He's done that repeatedly. He has, his, his, you know, base of support is shrinking.

Speaker 19 I don't think he's going to be viable. He already lost by 7 million votes in the previous round.
I think what I'm concerned about is Trumpism and the fact that you have

Speaker 19 a bunch of sycophants

Speaker 19 in political positions that are willing to go to any extreme to kind of continue to divide divide this country,

Speaker 19 double down on a shrinking base, and thinking that that's a strategy to

Speaker 19 political victory and taking all sorts of extreme measures with regards to voting rights,

Speaker 19 gerrymandering, all sorts of other things. And that even if they fail, they do a lot of harm to this country.
So it's Trumpism that I'm most worried about.

Speaker 19 It's this idea that there is in fact kind of an absolute truth.

Speaker 19 It's in fact that we are one people united by but far more than what divides us and it's really kind of a culture war that's being inflamed uh for for for self-service i criticized tucker carlson this week he went to to to see victor orbond and was touting authoritarianism uh over democracy and uh the fact that there there is no shame anymore with with being anti-american on the right that's what concerns me you know what he never had shame you can't shame the shameless lieutenant colonel anyway thank you so much everybody should read his book here right matters an american story thank you lieutenant colonel alexander vinman thank you thank you sir thank you all right preet that was great would you have turned president trump in that's a tough call that guy made boy well i don't know if i would have turned him in but i refused i refused to take his call right no i don't put myself in the category of lieutenant colonel vindman right that's true i had enough sense

Speaker 17 not to talk to the guy yep yep yep he was always trying to play something but to but to take it up that was something that took something to do that but you're right, you both have that in common, very much so.

Speaker 17 All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Speaker 16 okay pre wins and fails i'll let you go first wins and fails okay so aside from the very obvious fail that we've already discussed at some length the defense job of andrew cuomo's lawyers and their invocation of me fail and then

Speaker 16 For my real fail and win, I have the same episode involving the same person. Okay.

Speaker 16 It's a former acting attorney general, Jeffrey Rosen, who was only attorney general for the final weeks of the Trump administration.

Speaker 16 And as we've been learning over the last number of days, has done something very good. He's decided to come in and talk to congressional investigators,

Speaker 16 revealed information about how Donald Trump was calling him to try to get him to overturn the election, as we discussed with Colonel Midman, Lieutenant Colonel Midman, saying, hey, just call the election corrupt and I'll do the rest.

Speaker 16 He did a good thing in denying the request of the acting civil division chief, Jeffrey Clark,

Speaker 16 to tell georgia and other states that there were problems with their election because there's no proof of that so that's all good that's a win i also consider it a fail because it took him too long yeah this is information that he's carried with him for you know eight nine ten months and it might have been good information to have brought to investigators and congressional figures during the time of impeachment because all of this is part of the same thing it's it's this stuff that the president was doing at the very john boltony of him Yes, totally.

Speaker 16 And I get that people are saying

Speaker 16 that it's great.

Speaker 16 But I think you can't call it a win without also calling it a fail because this information would have been very helpful.

Speaker 17 Although he makes the argument.

Speaker 8 He couldn't have.

Speaker 17 He didn't have that a lot.

Speaker 16 There's always a way. You figure out a way.
I mean, look, he's doing things that are part of the win side of this.

Speaker 16 Knowing that there might be legal objection by Trump and his lawyers, he basically rushed in over a weekend this past weekend to talk to investigators, which is a good thing.

Speaker 16 So, you know, when there was a will to try to get. the story out and not be stymied, he figured that out in recent days.
And maybe something happened that changed his view.

Speaker 16 I don't think he thought he was going to take that to his grave. And earlier would have been better.

Speaker 17 Yeah, very good ones. Okay, I am going to say a win.
The U.S. military, just it's breaking, will mandate COVID-19 vaccine for troops by mid-September.

Speaker 17 They're going to order 1.3 million active duty troops, even if the FDA has not issued full approval. Hopefully they will by then, but that's pretty quick.

Speaker 17 They can do things fast, speaking, you know, as Lieutenant Colonel Vindman just noted.

Speaker 17 And so that's going to be interesting and controversial, but they're going to have to be taking their medicine here in the military.

Speaker 17 They're going to have to do it, I think, unless they leave.

Speaker 17 The fail is this climate report that just came out, and it's just devastating, the hotter future with this new climate panel.

Speaker 17 It's a major scientific report, and it's really disturbing. It's a United Nations scientific report.

Speaker 17 Humans have already heated up a planet by 1.1 degrees Celsius or degrees Fahrenheit since the 19th century. And it's going to get even more.

Speaker 17 And this is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the body of scientists.

Speaker 17 and even if nations start cutting emissions today which is a big if total global warming is likely to rise about 1.5 degrees celsius within the next two decades a hotter future is now locked in so that is a fail and it will continue to be so i it's depressing but it's so uh anyway preet that is the show on that note on that note on that note this was a real treat it was a treat i really appreciate it and everybody should listen to preet's podcast say where when and where they can get it stay tuned with preet wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 17 All right.

Speaker 17 Come back on Friday when I'll be joined by guest host Beratundi Thurston. A heads up, that Friday episode will go out a little later than usual.

Speaker 17 So if you don't see it in your morning commute, don't panic. But maybe listen instead to stay tuned with Preet while you wait.

Speaker 17 Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit your question for the Pivot podcast for that episode and others. The link is also in our show notes.
Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman and Evan Engel.

Speaker 17 Ernie Endradot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 17 If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Speaker 17 We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

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