The future of travel and a Friend of Pivot on telehealth

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Yeah, Scott, what's new?

Anything going on?

You know, absolutely nothing in my life, Kara.

I'm trying to think, what have I been up to?

What have I been up to?

Rebecca Cuba Music.

Oh, that's right.

Who's destroying the cable bundle single-handedly?

Is it a bird?

Is it a plane?

No, it's not even a jungle cat who has been on Bill Maher twice before me.

It's the dog, Kara.

After 30 years of working my ass off, I'm an overnight success.

An overnight success.

Okay.

All right.

Stop the music, Rebecca.

It's actually three times.

But nonetheless, that was an amazing thing.

I have to say, I have to hand it to you.

They had never gotten a dose of Scott Galloway, and you decided to go full on Scott Galloway.

It was amazing.

You went nuts.

So rather than me going on about you, let's listen to you on Bill Maher.

Capitalism is hands down the best system of its time.

When young people are seeing today, it's not capitalism.

We have rugged individualism on the way up, and then we have we're all in this together on the way down.

And we have socialism.

Capitalism on the way up, where five CEOs of airline companies make $150 million, use all their excess cash flow to buy back stocks so they can artificially inflate their own compensation, and then shit gets real and a pandemic comes and they don't have any money, and all of a sudden we're in this together.

When you have capitalism on the way up and you have socialism on the way down, I'm not done yet, and then you have socialism on the way down, that's not capitalism or socialism, it is cronyism.

It is the worst of all worlds.

Capitalism, capitalism is full-body contact violence at a corporate level so we can create prosperity and progress that rests on a bed of empathy.

We have flipped the script here.

We need to be more loving and empathetic with people and more harsh on companies.

Capitalism, we are protecting.

We should be protecting people, not companies.

Fucking Delta, burn, baby, burn.

You yelled a little bit.

You were emotional.

The whole thing.

It was a perfect.

It was the first time.

I thought I was going to throw up.

I'm not kidding.

Before the show, I was so fucking nervous, I thought I was in.

Well, next year, you'll be on again.

You'll be on again, I think.

Unless you you pissed bill off i couldn't tell actually one of your one of your muckety muck friends who's like big in the world of pr called me and go two things first off you did great second you'll never be invited up back because

you upstaged him well in so many words but i didn't think that was true at all i watched oh you did you did anyways but he's got an ego at him so anyway i was really

maybe you should have us both on he wouldn't do that he would be finished we'd take over the show and we'd just be hired by hbr no care i'll tell you what we should have him on we have bill ma we have bill maher on that's bill maher on that's a good idea we'll have him on okay so one thing that's interesting someone i'm going to have on the show soon is christie's auction house uh named the buyer of the 69 million dollar digital artwork that buyer was metacoven a founder and funder of meta purse the largest nft fund in the world another bitcoin boy essentially um so we're going to have someone next week on to explain one of scott's nyu colleagues to explain nfts and other cyber currencies the the bitcoin's going up again it's all being you know it's a lot of bitcoin bros buying this digital art too to keep it going But I think it's fascinating.

I think it's not a, I don't think it's a Ponzi scheme whatsoever.

I think it's showing how you use these things.

And in some cases, there'll be fraud.

In others, not so much.

Yeah, it's, it's just never underestimate the market's ability to find products when people have cash in their hands.

And this notion of creating, it's just fascinating, kind of artificial digital inspired

assets or scarcity and then creating a currency where two people agree that something is worth something.

It feels like a lot of speculation right now.

A lot of people are.

But what is any, what isn't speculative?

Like, I was just thinking, I was trying to explain to my son.

And so he's like, oh, you can get a, you can, he was, he has, of course, obsessed with the basketball ones, but

he's like, I can get those clips anytime.

And I said, but you don't own them.

Like, you don't own the clips.

You, you, you, you can get them.

And so what I was sort of interested in was like, you don't own the Mona Lisa, but you can have a picture of it on your wall and you can buy, you can take a picture and you can look at it, but someone owns it somewhere.

So I don't, you know, it depends on how they can monetize it and what it trades at.

So I think of it that way.

Like, what is a painting worth?

Why is some one painting worth something and another not worth something?

You know, I don't know.

Well, art has outperformed every asset class

because it's not only a store of value, but it's also consumption.

Usually it's one or the other.

A store of value is like a T-bill, a treasury, and you don't get to enjoy it.

A store of value or something you consume, you know, a car, whatever, it declines in value.

So art art has been this fantastic, a lot of people get a lot of reward from it.

It's also been a fantastic store of value.

And so art has outperformed almost every asset class.

And the idea of putting kind of some sort of Bitcoin-like secure ownership on top of a digital asset is an interesting

idea.

It's a blockchain.

Yeah.

That's the idea.

Blockchain.

Excuse me.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I think it's fascinating.

I mean, I was just, for some reason, I re-watched Tenant the other day because I was still trying to understand it.

And remember, there's a whole scene in an art place place without taxes.

They have the art stored securely.

Anyway, like, what is, I just think of what is anything worth?

This is my new feeling of everything.

What is anything worse?

Value.

Value.

Like, what is your value?

Could I sell you in some way?

Like, like a Bitcoin version of you, a digital version of Scott's many rants, for example?

Because like this, this guy who's a football player is doing it.

Well, I was thinking we should put an NFT on top of one of our, like, our most downloaded podcasts and see if we could raise money for charity.

i think there's going to be a lot of interesting yeah

let's think of something let's make an nft we'll do something like that maybe all your different rants of various kinds and stuff like that anyway it's a fascinating time scott really congratulations you did a beautiful job i'm going to be not

cared i'm going to jokes at you i'm not going to do anything you did a great job

your sweater was nice you were dressed well you looked good you looked smart I have to say

very, I was very impressed because it could have been a friggin disaster.

I was expecting a possible disaster.

I'll be honest.

Oh, there was a non-zero probability this was all going to come to an end on HBO.

I was literally like, oh, shoot.

You were nervous.

You were more nervous than me.

A little bit.

I'll be honest.

I'm like, what's it going to say?

Was he going to cancel us?

He's going to cancel us a little bit.

And I'm like attached to him, like at the hip.

Oh, God.

I'm going down like the Titanic.

Except, you know, it'll be like, you know, when Leonard DiCaprio was hanging on

that thing

on the door that Kate Winslet was on?

You remember that scene at the end?

Of course, I know.

On the door.

The Titanic at the end, when they're at the end.

Yeah,

when he's about to drown and she just lets him go.

She lets him go.

Oh, no, you're going down with me, by the way.

Oh, no.

I'm staying on the door.

I was like,

how do I stay on the door?

So just two words, Kara.

Two words.

Go on.

First word, suicide.

Second word, pact.

We are in this together.

Oh, no.

You ride with the dog, you die with the dog.

No, I am Kate Winslet on the door.

That is who I am.

I'm just saying.

I love you, but goodbye.

Freeze to death in the depths of the North Atlantic.

But I love you, goodbye.

They both could have been.

I'm women and children first.

I'm on the first boat.

There's Rebecca.

That's right.

100%.

All right, we're going to go on to big stories.

Air travel is surging this week with vaccine.

People with taking the vaccine are starting to feel free to move out the country.

Let's talk about the reopening of American travel over the weekend.

TSA officers screened the highest number of passengers on a single day since March 15th of last year.

The reduction in travel hit airlines hard last year.

U.S.

airlines lost more than $35 billion combined.

On the other hand, a smattering of colleges like Yale University are canceling spring break this year in an effort to keep students from traveling to hot spots like Miami Beach.

All right, what do you think?

I'm thinking of traveling.

I've gotten my vaccine not until, of course, it's all in.

But what's going on, Scott?

What do you think is going to happen now?

It's both super exciting and also, we don't want to acknowledge this.

It's also frightening.

Duke just canceled classes.

They have an outbreak there.

Yep.

This is what Fauci said was going to, Dr.

Fauci's going to be.

It's happened in other countries, too.

Well, and we don't want to acknowledge this, but, and this is why it's so important we get vaccinated.

I see it as a race between vaccinations and variants.

Viruses are incredibly impressive pathogens or organisms.

I don't know what the correct term is.

And you can bet that this virus is working overtime to try and figure out a way to get around these vaccines.

And when we have people traveling and we create more opportunities for asymptomatic carriers, you just, you're kind of, I don't want to say you're arming the variants, but I think this is a very nervous time because if you want to see a crash

that would affect everybody, if all of a sudden there's an outbreak of a variant that appears to, that, that

resists the vaccine.

That is when shit gets real for us.

I mean, it's gotten really real.

It's a half a million, but all of a sudden it looks like, wow, we could go from half a million deaths to five million and you'll see the you'll see the economy the economy wouldn't won't be able won't won't have any kevlar against that so look i'm a glass half empty kind of guy right i think it's exciting that people are traveling um

it's a good sign that people want to get out there's there's no doubt about it this is going to be the roaring 20s if we continue agreed i look at the stock market look at the stock markets roaring i think it's interesting to see what happens what would be interesting to see if u.s airlines actually change their practices like in terms of how they behave and and operate their businesses the second thing is um i just talked to Airbnb's Brian Cheske for Sway coming up.

And, you know, one of the things is he has pivoted his business, obviously, but his will, that business will go right up.

You would talk about that because people were moving closer to home, but now they're seeing an upsurge in traveling, he said.

Not internationally yet, but in the country and stuff.

It's going to be, you know, I think that,

I mean, I love Airbnb, but it's going to change.

We're just going to change so many ways.

We're going to return to travel, but I think we're going to travel differently.

He said no, business travel, he wasn't focused in on at all.

He said it's over.

Oh, business travel is going to get business travel is going to get crushed.

That's what he said.

It's just, it's just, we've realized I have several friends who do nothing but kind of

circle the plan of raising money from

sovereign wealth funds.

And they say they'll still go to Canada to meet with Ottawa teachers.

They'll still go to the Gulf or wherever, but they'll go once a quarter instead of once.

I mean, they're just off planes.

Yeah.

Because everybody has learned new technologies and is comfortable.

And I think the same thing.

I wonder what's going to happen.

I think travel is going to be reconfigured.

I think people are going to spend as much money, but they're going to spend it.

They're going to crowd it around leisure travel and consumption and travel with their families.

That is precisely what Brian said.

He said he doesn't think business travel is going to come back in ways that people think people have changed the way.

You know, he had talked about their own headquarters, you know, that they had made these beautiful headquarters.

And he's like, you know, I rethink everything now.

Like, not that he's not going to make it available and people want to go in, it's temporary, but it's going to be a much different strategy.

He said he's not going to go full hog like a lot of tech companies.

At the same time, he feels like most of the investments his company should make should be in consumer travel, consumer travel.

And he thinks that's going to surge.

He thinks people are really dying to get out and stuff, but they're not going back into airlines.

They're not going to, remember, they had an airline plot going on.

So it'll be interesting.

What do you think was going to happen to airlines?

And I have one other question about spring break since you're down in Florida.

A lot of airlines will go bankrupt

and they'll be reconfigured.

Airlines in the United States have gone bankrupt or they call it restructuring, I think 62 times since the turn of the millennium.

Airlines are famous for going bankrupt.

And guess what?

That's fine because it'll give another set of investors a chance to come in and try and reconfigure and make airlines more resilient to these types of shows.

What would you do in that way?

What would you do?

Because of course, at the same time,

the fact that travel is down, climate, you know, the emissions are down, obviously.

And there hasn't been a real, you know, when I talked to Bill Gates, he talked about the, you know, a green fuel, essentially, fuel that's made with less emissions or it's much more expensive.

It has a real premium on it.

Would you, they're not really going to invest in that, right?

I mean, would you, or is that something everyone's like, look, emissions are down where people are traveling less.

This is good for the environment.

Well, that's it.

There's two different issues there, how airlines reinvent themselves.

But I think a big question for society and for all of us as individuals as it relates to our professional and not our personal lives, our relationships, our behaviors.

This is a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.

And what I say to my kids, when I say my kids, my students, ask yourself, what are you going to leave behind?

I mean, as a society,

there were parts of the country where emissions were down 20, 30, 40%.

And the question becomes, well, might that be something we want to hold on to even post-pandemic?

And what would be required to do that?

It's an exciting moment to say, how do we leave emissions behind?

I also think it's a really interesting exercise to say,

what about my relationships with my children, my spouse, my parents, my friends, my coworkers was better and what was worse?

And which relationships or behaviors do I leave behind?

No, my baby, my young daughter, the first year, I would have been traveling quite a bit.

I would have 100%.

Amanda and I talked about this.

And I have to say, I don't take, I want to travel more intentionally.

I hate to use that word because I hate that word.

That's right.

You know, just more intentionally.

Like, do I have to do this?

No.

Like, can I do it via online?

Yes.

Like that kind of thing.

I think it's, it's turned out to be just fine.

And it's kind of stupid trips where you travel somewhere.

I mean, Farhad Manju had a piece about this.

Like, he traveled one place to get an argument with someone for an interview and it didn't even work.

And he came back.

And he was like, it was a waste of money, time, and emissions.

I mean, he could have done it a much different way.

I track everything I do pretty meticulously.

And my first business profit brand strategy, my biggest client was Audi.

And I used to commute every week from San Francisco to Munich and then get in a car and drive to Ingolstadt, Germany, such that I could spend one or two days with the CMO of Audi trying to figure out what Audi's purpose was

as a brand.

And I was commuting back and forth to Germany.

And I last year in 2019.

10-hour flight?

10.

That's it, right?

Like 11.

Yeah.

And then, and then consulting is a young woman's game.

It's a terrible lifestyle.

Anyways, but in 2019, I did about, I did 41 speaking gigs.

And for 25 of them, I had to travel.

And when I looked at the amount of money and the amount of miles, I spent somewhere between 75 and 125,000, or my client spent that on just my travel.

And in 2021, I will do somewhere between 70 and 80 speaking gigs.

And I'm not traveling.

And I'm going to cut that entirely out of my life.

If I can't go into my studio, turn on Zoom, then I just don't, I don't do it.

I'm not going to the Radisson in Scottsdale.

And

when you think about what that means, not only is it

a destruction in business travel, but I also think it's a real opportunity for mothers and fathers to spend more time with their kids, right?

It's like, okay, I might give up a little bit of income, but I save a lot of money, save a lot of emissions.

And where do you reinvest that capital, right?

Do you reinvest it in remote technology?

Do you reinvest it in your family?

Do you reinvest it in making more money?

But it'll have, what's interesting about it is like all digitization,

it'll have a really, it will have a negative impact.

And that is the speaker circuit, which I'm technically on.

There's sort of tier A and then there's familiar.

There's tier A that gets, call it 60 to 200 grand for a speaking gig.

And then there's tier B and tier B is kind of 20 to 40.

And there's a lot more of those folks.

Those folks are getting crushed because by going remotely, you take your prices way down.

And so you can get tier A for what used to be tier B prices and they're soaking up everything because they can do two or three gigs a week versus just one.

And so it's like all digitization, there's big winners and the tier two or the tier B get crushed.

Guess what?

You're just seeing it across.

Tier A this week.

You moved into tier A.

Go on.

Cable star.

Cable.

HBO star.

All right.

That's right.

Tier A minus, I would say.

Tier A minus.

Tier A minus.

Anyway.

All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break.

We'll be back with a friend of Pivot to talk about telehealth, which is just what we're talking about now.

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We're back with our friend of Pivot, Andrew Dudham.

He's the CEO and founder of Hims and Hers, a telehealth platform that connects people to healthcare professionals.

Welcome, Andrew.

Thanks for having me.

So tell me,

I've seen your ads everywhere.

Explain what you're doing, what the company does.

You guys just went public via a SPAC in January, and I want to talk about that.

And Scott will have a lot of SPAC questions, but talk about what you do because you've made some big strides during the pandemic, for example.

Yeah, you know, Hims and Hers is actually relatively simple, which is to be the front door for people to come access healthcare.

So from the comfort of your phone, you can go to forhims or forhers.com.

You can pay between $20 and $30.

You can access a specialist for things like dermatology, sexual health, anxiety, depression, a whole bunch of things you might be concerned with.

And then get immediately connected to, you know, that doctor, have a personalized treatment plan and have anything necessary to feel better and be well shipped to your door kind of on a monthly basis.

So it's, it's really consumerizing and making accessible a really complex healthcare system, which is just is just brutal really in this country.

Now, what, what do you do, Dem?

Do you, telehealth?

Is you have doctors on your platform or are they doctors hired by you?

Because

there was an effort in San Francisco, and I'm totally blanking on the name.

You probably know it right away, that an ex-Google guy was doing, which is these sort of storefronts, sort of for millennials, where people would have sort of, it was very digitally oriented.

You'd go in, you'd see a doctor, was beautiful looking, you know, sort of trying to consumerize the healthcare experience.

What's the difference in what you guys do?

So, this is entirely digital.

So, we have a platform that connects doctors to you as a patient.

So, no matter where you are in this country, you could be in a

rural zip code of Nebraska.

You can go onto the platform and get connected with literally a specialist and, you know, let's say post-pregnancy melasma, right?

And actually have a real consultation with the best clinical care you could possibly get as if you were living in San Francisco or New York, but have it from the comfort of your home.

So, we're really this marketplace connecting world-class physicians and specialists with patients that need us across the country.

And how do you know they're world-class?

So we actually have an entire medical organization, which is led by Dr.

Patrick Carroll, who previously actually was the chief medical officer at Walgreens for five years, practicing physician for 30 or 40 years.

And what we do is actually vet and

train all of the physicians on the platform.

So they go through constant re-education, making sure that they're aware of kind of the best protocols for whatever they're specifically treating.

They have to pass tests before they can even get onto the platform.

And on average, you know, the doctors are experienced for 15 or 16 years in a hospital before they even get to hims and hers.

So we pretty much take the cream of the crop, then make them accessible to the rest of the country, all through a really beautiful and simple experience.

And this is a really unique part, that's all cash pay.

It's $20 or $30.

It's something anybody can afford.

And that price point is really important because that's a price point that in most situations is cheaper than people's co-pays on their insurance, right?

People have insurance and they're covered, but they could pay hundreds of dollars just to see a doctor given what's happening in the high-deductible insurance plans in this country.

So making it affordable and accessible, I think, is a really important part of our vision.

All right, Scott.

So first off, Andrew, congrats on your success.

I think a lot of people acknowledge there's a huge opportunity here and that you're seizing it.

How does a company like HIMS build moats?

You have technology, you have a customer base, you have a brand, obviously a bunch of components and execution, but assuming companies ranging from the largest health insurers to Amazon decide to get into remote or telemedicine, what are the moats that you're building that are going to sustain what right now looks like a very healthy valuation?

Yeah, it's a great question.

I think it's across a lot of the areas you talked about, the clinical care, making sure that

we can really deliver personalized, customized care for every patient that comes on the platform.

So, for example, in our skincare world, we have partnerships with compounding pharmacies so that we can get you literally the perfect personalized formula for your skin, right?

So I think that clinical personalization really matters.

The technology platform, at the end of the day, that's what powers this whole thing.

So if you think about our numbers, it's kind of crazy.

We in the last three years, because the business is just 36 months old,

have powered close to 3 million medical visits.

And then, if you look at the largest competitors in the space, you look at Teladoc, for example, 30 or 40 billion dollar public company.

It took Teladoc 13 years for them to power just their first 1 million medical visits.

And we did that in our first 12 months of operation.

And the only reason that was possible was because we spent you know, four or five years and hundreds of millions of dollars building essentially this digital workflow for physicians on one side and patients on the other, and then our own custom EMR in the middle that made it way easier for them to interact, for them to diagnose accurately, for us to have programmatic check-in with our patients that gave our doctors leverage on their time, but resulted in better adherence to medication.

So all of this technology is just new in healthcare.

And from a regulatory standpoint, in the last couple of years, it's really now the first time you can even invest in this technology to allow patients and doctors to use it.

And so that's a huge moat that when you think of the biggest healthcare companies in the world, they really just haven't built that yet.

And so I think that's something we focus on.

And the same thing, you also tended, you focused early on things like erectile dysfunction or skin with women birth control and sexual health.

So a lot of the ads were.

felt very condomy.

Like, I don't know how to say it.

It just was like that you had hair growth kits, skin sex, birth control.

Talk about that, that why you decided to start there.

Those were, so they're relatively healthy people just wanted to either look better or have more sex essentially you know what there's a lot of people that want to look better and have more sex i would argue it's probably most of the country um you know

um you know brain brain

that's right you know but it was actually a really intentional decision which is

you know i i truly believe in the next 10 years probably 80% of what we know is healthcare, you know, going into the doctors, waiting in line, getting a prescription to the pharmacy, that's going to move to a digital first experience.

100%.

Right.

And if you think about that, 80% of a $4 trillion market, that's massive.

So if we believe in the next 10 years, this whole industry is going to be completely revolutionized, digitized, mobile-first, et cetera, beautiful.

Well, you then need to go think about who's going to be the biggest paying customer in healthcare in 10 years from now, right?

And in 20 years from now.

And it's not going to be my parents, right?

Because, you know, their affiliation and awareness of technology expectations are so different from those those in their teens and 20s and 30s who expect everything on demand, everything price transparent, everything beautiful.

I mean, they were just spoiled, right, by the consumerization of everything, right?

It's at their fingertips.

And so we felt if we needed to build the future of healthcare, we had to go and build it for the young generation because they're going to be the ones that are going to be the biggest spenders in healthcare in 10 and 20 years from now.

And then when you go talk to those people, turns out the things that they really care about when they're in their 20s and 30s, when you're you're trying to build that relationship with them is things like dermatology anxiety and depression sexual health issues s tds right pregnancy and so that's really where you see our core focus in the beginning is building that loyalty with what we think is going to be the future biggest spenders in the healthcare system so how do you get when they get become creakier um

what what's the what's the plan because then it becomes people do have to see doctors physically um more frequently yeah so maybe they don't.

Maybe they don't.

Well, I think, you know, a lot of things that affect the country en masse, you're talking about hypertension, hyperlipidemia, diabetes, weight loss, right?

Those types of, those types of categories probably, you know, are the leading cause of 70 or 80% of death in the country.

When you talk to physicians, most of them tell you it's actually really quite safe and standardized to treat those in a digital experience, right?

You can have cognitive behavioral therapy apps that help you readjust your

expectations of food, for example.

You can have really safe online nutrition therapy and coaching for anxiety and depression.

There are safe SSRIs plus CBT plus individual psychotherapy.

So I actually think there's this world where it really will be almost everything except for in-person procedural work that will be done in a digital setting.

And even those procedural works will start in a digital setting and then you'll get referred into a specific brick and mortar institution.

So, for example, in the last year or two, we've gone and partnered with Oshner Health Systems, Sinai, Privia.

These are large brick and mortar institutions in the country so that when patients come to us.

Exactly.

In in-person visits, so when patients come to us and they need something that we can't offer them in, you know, in our virtual experience, we can then refer them in via this really seamless experience into something that's brick and mortar to help them out.

Can I ask you two questions?

Stop, I'll have another one.

The business model involves a subscription that's about $20 to $30 a month

and aimed at millennials and Gen Z who don't have insurance.

Your main revenue comes from the sale of prescriptions, correct?

Is that correct, essentially?

So it's actually not.

The main revenue comes essentially from the sale of a comprehensive treatment package.

So it's about 80 or 90% of our revenue is recurring, as you said.

But with that treatment package, you get personalized medical consultations, unlimited consultations.

You essentially have a doctor in your pocket.

Which you don't use that much, right?

That's probably like a gym, like people use it a lot less than,

you know, for

a lot of our conditions, they actually use it quite frequently.

You're talking about something like anxiety and depression, and you're doing check-ins, right?

Of like, how are you feeling?

Is the medication working?

You change dosages.

You might change a different medication.

You might actually schedule, you know, a therapy appointment that week.

So you actually have this kind of a quarterback system in our experience where they're leading your treatment for this condition.

And so that $20 or $30 includes that full-time doctor, the personalized treatment for whatever you need, both services and products, and then on top of that, the delivery of the actual medications and products on a monthly basis.

So it's really all-encompassing,

you know, to solve whatever issue you come into the door with.

Scott?

Yeah, this, look, this just feels like the biggest consumer business in the world, U.S.

healthcare that's undergoing the biggest disruption.

It just seems like the opportunities here are just,

you know,

titanic, for lack of a better term.

The question is,

it feels to me like this is going to be an arms race, that there are going to be a lot of deep-pocketed players come into this.

And speaking of raising capital,

you went public via SPAC.

And I'm just curious why you decided to SPAC instead of a traditional IPO route.

And if you could give us what you felt were the biggest surprises to the upside and to the downside about doing SPACing versus a traditional IPO route.

Can I just put that in before you go on?

Just so people know, you raised $280 million.

About $75 million came from a private placement from investors.

And before you had raised $158 million in venture capital, including from your own venture capital from Atomic, which I know pretty well.

So talk about, so why, yeah, why SPAC?

You know, we kind of approached it as a really just first principle debate, right, at the board level and the board including myself you know is very blue chip traditional silicon valley investors you're talking founders fund ivp thrive capital you know these are not people who are taking huge massive risks when it comes to structuring ideas like a spac but at the beginning of last year as we're planning for the traditional ipo process working with the banks you'd expect us to be working with prepping for that process We started to learn about just the fundamentals of the SPAC structure, which as you guys have talked about, has been around for a really long time, right?

This isn't new,

and tee them up against the traditional process.

And when you look at it actually under the hood, despite I think the fact that there are, you know, maybe an overabundance of companies going public right now, and there's too much capital, which is creating all types of perverse dynamics, if you actually look at the structuring of the SPAC, it's really advantageous for the team and for the company.

You have a process that takes four to eight months instead of 12 to 18 months, right?

Having raised hundreds of millions in capital over the last decade, I know the real distraction costs when my management team is raising capital instead of focused on my business.

And an additional six months of them being distracted with a traditional IPO is a real cost that I took into the equation.

So I think that speed was really important.

I think there's a degree of flexibility in structuring with SPACs that is really undervalued.

So as an example for us, we raised that 75 million pipe, as you said, Karen, and we really explicitly wanted some funds that we'd gotten to know who were really big, long-term believers in our business to be in the business and to anchor that pipe.

And with a SPAC, we could structure those dynamics appropriately.

So, for example, Franklin Templeton, phenomenal public market fund, they really anchored the pipe for us.

And for us, that was an important dynamic.

And so, with the traditional IPO, you have a little less control of your book, right?

The banks are really managing this dynamic.

And then, lastly, you know, and this is hotly debated,

you know, it's the trade-off of the traditional roadshow and the excitement and the PR you get from that IPO.

And in a lot of situations, that pop with the real cost of that pop and whether or not you can get that roadshow and get that momentum in a less cost, you know, costly way.

Because you had also been marketing, correct?

Heavily.

That's right.

I'm so aware of you and I don't know why I ride in New York Subways.

I think so.

Right.

And so we, you know, we're a business that

people knew about in general our customers um you know we've been marketing to for a really long time when you look at the actual historical you know costs of ipos and you know working with the best banks that we would all expect to be working with you know there are real dynamics there on pricing and where their clients are getting real upside and so what we decided to do with the spec because every other dynamic we really liked was

have a real roadshow, you know, as if it was a traditional IPO.

We met with 100 or 200 individual accounts and told the story and got people excited.

But we could price the deal what we thought was a real practical price and an appropriate price.

And so, you know, the stock has traded up and down and all over the place, just like the rest of the market, but it's up 50 or 60% on the IPO price.

But we still felt like we priced it appropriately.

And I think we would have left a material amount of money on the table if we had done a traditional IPO.

So I think, you know, first principles, speed, right?

For entrepreneurs who are looking for efficiency on their team, a process that takes half the time is something that it's also a complex story, right?

Obviously, it's a more complex story.

It's not as easy to tell.

Let me, could you answer Scott's question about the mega tech companies like Amazon and traditional players like CVS coming in?

And obviously, Walgreens, interestingly, CBS and Walgreens are both headed by women, which is interesting.

But

the new head of Walgreens, Rand Starbucks, she knows something about this kind of thing, right?

She has, I mean,

picking her was a really interesting choice from my perspective.

Totally.

I think that was really fast.

She knows how to sell coffee.

She knows how to sell health, you know,

so talk a little bit about that.

I mean, Amazon's going to come in here and show up, have a doctor show up at your door

or whatever, or via their, you know, the thing in the

various devices.

Yeah.

Right.

That's right.

You know, I think there's going to be a tremendous amount of investment in this space, as there should be, right, from a first principle standpoint.

You're talking about an industry that is so fundamentally broken, 80% of rural counties in this country don't have a doctor within two hour drive.

Half the people in this country can't afford the deductible on their insurance plan.

I mean, it's entirely broken system.

So everybody needs to invest a lot of money into it just to get it into a good place.

With that said, I think the players that will really win are the ones that

understand that consumer expectations have dramatically changed, right?

That they are technology forward, that they're digitally native forward, right?

They expect everything on demand from the comfort of their phone.

They expect it to be beautiful.

And then they find a lot of this finance stuff.

Exactly.

A lot of the finance stuff.

And so, you know, when I talk to, and I talk to a lot of CEOs of big healthcare systems and big pharmacy systems, like you were talking about, and what I see overwhelmingly is still a pretty historical legacy type of approach to healthcare, which is we control your health and we give you a couple of options, right?

And it's behind the scenes, scenes complex incentive webs of insurance and reimbursement of how we're making money but the patient is really a recipient of our care and in my opinion is you know customers in the next 10 years are going to be using their dollars and going to the places and companies that they love right the companies and experiences that are beautiful that make them feel good that that you know kind of feel empowered and so to speak with their dollars and in order to do that you have to have a great orientation for the customer a really, really heavy technology focus and experience focus.

And I think in a lot of ways, that will frankly filter out, so to speak, probably a large number of the players that are, I think, playing in this space.

I think that's

how I see it.

A quick question.

Do you have a branding issue just because

I didn't know you were really in telemedicine?

I think of HIMS as the erectile dysfunction delivered anonymously to your door company.

And now that you've gone broader into what is a much bigger market, and it sounds like you're doing really well, have you given any thought to just your brand positioning or even the name of the company?

Because there's guys like me who think, oh, that's the Viagra to your door company.

Right.

Yeah, I think there's two elements in there.

You know, the first on the kind of positioning of the company.

My opinion is generally people don't get super excited when they hear about the word telemedicine, right?

I'm a customer.

I hear about this telemedicine company.

That doesn't, you know, when I'm feeling sick, I don't think the word telemedicine.

I think, you know, flu, or I think the acne on my face, or I think depression, or I think anxiety.

And if you think of this next generation of consumer experiences, people want to feel an emotional resonance with your brand and with your company.

And so, you know, Scott, to your point, people don't know the word telemedicine.

And we actually kind of intentionally don't want customers to think about the cold, sterile hospital when they come to our experience.

We want them to come think about solving their depression or solving the fact that them and their partner are struggling in their relationship because of sexual issues, right?

And that we're going to help you with that issue and empower you for that issue.

So I think that was actually a pretty intentional move for us, which is kind of

put the doctors and the clinical and the white coats kind of behind the scenes and make it just feel beautiful and seamless.

And then the second is on the, you know, on the naming of the company.

I actually think we will probably at some point, you know, change that name.

You know, the hims and hers name is such a binary name, to be completely honest.

And I don't think it's particularly reflective of the.

It feels like you're bigger than that now.

When you call it up on Google, just so you know, it goes official site ED and hair loss meds from home.

That's where it says when the Google, when the Google

I can, I can validate big market.

Big, big market.

Huge market.

Pfizer built a very large company on that market.

But yeah, I think there's a lot from a consumer expectation standpoint that's changing changing really quickly.

And especially we hear this a lot, right?

Because our demographic are kids in their teens and their 20s.

And they're the ones that are

pushing the boundaries of identification, non-cisgendered, non-binary in a lot of different ways.

And so our team is actually spending a tremendous amount of time on how you navigate that, how you do it safely.

from a medical standpoint, right?

Because there's actually a lot of dynamics.

It's not just a branding exercise.

It's also a clinical protocols exercise, right, from a healthcare standpoint.

But it is something that I think is an important part of the future that you'll definitely see us take lead in.

So, just one last question here.

So, you said publicly your $3 billion market cap, you can see you being a $20 billion market capitalization company.

What is the major point of friction between $3 billion and $20 billion?

Is it customers?

Is it talented management?

Is it regulation?

Is it more capital?

If you could solve one point of friction to get from three to 20, what is it?

It's execution at at this point, right?

We have, you know, plenty of people.

People bringing in the right people.

You know, I actually think we have the right people.

It's an entirely remote team.

We have about 150 people across the country.

But what we need to do over the next five years is systematically go from a business that is currently made up of

five or ten different verticals and categories and continue to grow that base and also expand into five or ten new vertical new verticals and categories, right?

You need to broaden the set of customers that you can help on the page.

I just noticed

on your site, which immediately goes to hair and sex, essentially at the top, which is nice.

I'm enjoying your cactus standing straight up, which is kind of an interesting choice, but I like it.

Are you mocking me?

No, wait, I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

This is, Scott, this one is simple.

You need erections when you want them, not when it's convenient for your penis.

This is their protection.

Absolutely nothing.

No response for that.

Okay.

I have no response for that.

Please don't.

I'm going to call that.

I'm reading right from the ham site.

Okay.

So you have popular

I should call him.

Wait, listen.

Anyways, go ahead.

Okay.

You and me?

You added skin, primary, you've added

primary care is now there, and then COVID-19.

So, last question: What has happened during the pandemic for you?

I'm clicking on the COVID-19, you have home saliva test, self-assessment tools is what you're working on there.

In primary care, you have cold and flu, allergies, infections, UTI right up top, skin and bug bites, eczema, and stuff like that.

Those talk about what's happened during the COVID time period.

Yeah, you had this situation where,

you know, these massive tailwinds of telemedicine have been happening for years.

And we, we were kind of expecting five and 10 years from now, you'd see this mass market awareness of telemedicine.

And what happened is you had all of it happened in 12 months, right?

You had the president saying the word telemedicine over and over and over again on daily interviews.

And so you went from this world where less than five or 10% of people have ever experienced digital health to now coming into this year, almost 80 plus percent of people having experienced it.

And once you've experienced it, it's amazing, right?

You're on your couch, you click a button, you connect to a doctor, you talk about the UTI, you don't have to come in and wait in a line and get childcare lined up.

The medication comes to your door within a couple of hours or the next day.

It's just beautiful and affordable and seamless.

And so I think

what we were able to do was look into the future of what's going to happen in a lot of industries in the last year, and in particular with healthcare.

And now customers more than ever, I think, expect to be able to pick up their phone and get access to it.

And so we launched, as you were saying, primary care.

So now if you have a bug bite, if you have a UTI, if you have a migraine or a

stomach bug, you can come talk to a primary care doctor in 10 minutes.

get a medication if you need it, get some advice if you need it, and start to feel better.

Toenail fungus.

It's just seamless.

Toenail fungus.

Sinus.

Super, super common thing.

Oh, How many of you have to do that?

Yeah, but isn't, but just to be serious for a second, isn't a big value proposition, not only remote medicine, but

it's the delivery of anonymity.

I mean, anonymity is a huge component, a huge value add of

a lot of medical, a lot of specific.

And it seems to me that you went after what would people really value a certain level of anonymity or discretion around that remote provides, and you're attacking those.

You know, when you look at privacy better than anonymity, excuse me, maybe privacy or, I don't know, I don't know what the term is.

yeah i think i think it's normalization right and stigma it's stigma busting right is how we think about it that's right that's a great term if you think about you know the new york city subways these these beautifully photographed cactuses right that's not healthcare you don't think of that as healthcare but it starts a conversation between men or women sitting on that train talking about their sex life.

I'm not sure that's a good idea.

No, it is.

Like friends sitting there and maybe they start by giggling and they laugh at it, but then they actually have a real conversation or you see yeah you know a conversation about anxiety or depression and there's a little bit of

the big area i think is interesting yeah there's a little bit of like irreverence maybe in the marketing and brand but it it gives people the access point it opens the door just a little bit oh you mean with with friends you're on the subway with not yeah exactly no with friends yeah your friends are there

on the subway scott yeah what do they got to say no no friends

right yeah and and and especially when you talk to people okay good good you know when you talk to people about healthcare, that access access problem isn't just about cost and location.

It's about stigma, right?

People are scared to admit that they've got an issue.

And so we've spent a lot of time trying to remove that stigma and normalize these things for people because we know that that's a big impact.

Not really, the money besides stigma is inconvenience and how difficult.

I think for a vast majority of people who are used to a relatively well-functioning healthcare system, but not really because they're wealthier, this COVID has shown everybody how badly it is done and how easily it could have been done

in terms of ways.

Anyway, Andrew, this has been fascinating.

I find this area so interesting.

And both Scott and I will be talking about it a lot in the future, I think, because it's really the, as Scott said,

it's the brass ring in terms of the one area that tech has not affected at all in a way that you would imagine it should have.

Okay.

Congratulations.

Thank you so much.

We really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

See, Scott, it's more than condoms and cactuses.

Penile-looking cactuses.

It is an interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting as they're started to branch out.

They were certainly ED and

I didn't know that.

Did you know that?

I didn't know they were telemost, and I always thought they were the get-your-Roman.

That's where they started.

We should keep an eye on.

All right, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Okay, Scott, wins and fails.

So my win is Sarah Silverman, the comedian, did this great video that's gone viral talking about righteousness porn and her saying that as a proud progressive, she's thinking she may not want to affiliate any longer with a party because she's kind of the sick of the all or nothing attitude.

And she uses minimum wage as an attitude and that.

you know, there's just so much righteous anger on both sides.

And I got an email from this really thoughtful guy, and he said that,

and he kind of said, he was trying to be, I think, paternal, which I always welcome.

And said, look, you run the risk because you are in kind of this influencer circle of entering a bubble where you're drawn to issues that create, that are emotionally charged,

as opposed to issues, boring issues that don't auger as much emotion, but are more important to people's everyday lives.

And I feel as if in politics, we're like Tyrannosaurus Rexes, we're drawn towards movement and violence.

We want to talk about things that catalyze emotion, whether it's, you know, whether they build the wall or not, or

late-term abortions, which just aren't what I'll call, you know, it's an important issue, but it doesn't,

it's not, we're talking about, you know, a fraction basis points of percent of actually what happens out there.

And I thought that was an interesting comment.

And what Sarah was saying is that, and I'd like to think, that there's a movement towards what I'll call the pragmatic middle, or

let's be less focused on being right and more focused on being effective.

Yeah.

And, you know, let's let's create more warriors and fewer woesters and fewer bigots, so to speak.

Let's put on the far right, we have they've weaponized bigotry and it's gotten out of control for them.

And I think on the far left, we've made the mistake of believing we're a self-appointed police force for cultural issues.

And it's like, okay, when are the operators showing up?

When are the people who are going to interesting, you know, you're saying that Rebecca Tracer's story in New York magazine this week, from New York Media, is really quite good, actually.

She talks about that, and it actually opens with that.

You'd think it was about Cuomo.

And it was like, it's not that they were,

this guy had come in from the Obama administration and other places.

And he's like, it's not that they were just

mean with each other.

It was a mean culture, you know, a mean and unpleasant culture.

It's that they were ineffective too.

Like they were mean and

who are they talking about?

They were talking about the Cuomo administration.

They're like, they weren't just mean at each other and grasping, but they were ineffective at their jobs.

And every single person interviewed talked about that, is that they never never got to policy.

It was always about optics and fighting and winning and dominating.

And it was really, it's a really, I was, I did not expect this story from Rebecca Traister.

I thought I was expecting a very different story.

And it was about competence, like, you know, and she wasn't saying you should be mean or anything like that, but it was like, it wasn't just this guy.

These quotes were fascinating.

There was one woman of color who was working in the PR department.

She's like, it was never about the policy.

It was always about the projection.

And

you just wish you could just do something, like you could actually do something that helped people.

And it was, that was, that was really interesting to me.

But you're,

you brought up Cuomo.

I believe that it's unlikely that he's going to survive this and that it will be a function of what did actually take place or what didn't take place.

But even more so than that,

I think he's not going to be our governor because he's an asshole.

And that is if you treat people poorly.

She noted that too.

If you treat people poorly, if you're all about leverage and your optics versus partnering with the mayor of

New York and saying, all right, occasionally you get the spotlight.

If you're about, if you occasionally hold back and don't threaten or intimidate people, you know, the moment, I mean, look at the way people are coming for him right now.

He has no base of support.

He has no pillar of loyalty.

And so he may deserve or not deserve to be drummed out of office, but he's going to be because he's an asshole.

And here's the thing about being an asshole and

not letting other people occasionally have some credit or some limelight or using intimidation.

It makes you ineffective.

It just makes you ineffective.

And

anyways, I think competence is going to really matter.

I think

I forget, it was like

Biden's gotten up to 3 million a day.

It's just, it's getting done.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like getting things done is going to be a very attractive trait, I think, politically is what you're saying, is getting things done.

And

he's the perfect example.

I think for the first time in several decades, we have an individual who's a better president than candidate and who is, I don't need to hog the mic.

I want to obviously get credit, but I'm more about behind the scenes getting shit done and trying to,

you know, I'm not an ideological warrior.

I'm just trying to get things done.

Anyways, I think there's, I thought her rant was, was my win.

My fail

is, you know, the very disturbing news out of,

I believe it was about out of britain a woman named sarah everard yeah disappeared on her walk home in london and was found dead a week later and she did everything you're supposed to do she called her boyfriend to let her know she was on her way home she took a safer route she wore bright clothing like she just did everything and they responded the police responded by going door to door and telling women they should stay inside.

And I thought to myself, I thought, okay, here we are in America.

And we're afraid to tell people to wear a mask, much less stay inside.

But when 51% of our population is under threat, we tell them to stay home.

And it's just, it's like, nope.

And then any modern society that has tax revenue has the wherewithal to say, I mean, if there was someone roaming the neighborhood with a gun, or if there was a Jack the Ripper-like psychopath, they also didn't want

to protest, is what they didn't want.

They didn't want those protests.

And then the protest got violent.

And then they were heavy-handed with the protesters.

And the reality is, it just struck me like this

standard.

The reaction shouldn't be, you need to stay home.

The reaction is we're doubling the police force and this is why you can feel safe leaving your home.

I also think that men have a responsibility here.

And that is.

Yes, they do.

Well,

at UCLA, we used to have something called community service officers.

And it was this infrastructure where men and women with walkie-talkies could be called within three minutes.

We did that.

Someone could help you walk home.

I think men in these areas have a responsibility to ensure that their communities are safe because I don't think we can just always blame the police have a responsibility, but there's something about, there's something very uncomfortable when you immediately move to, okay, there's violence against women, so women need to stay indoors.

And it's just not the right response.

Exactly.

But we might want to also get at the heart of why that is, why women are so unsafe walking in the streets everywhere across the world.

That is, to me,

it can't be men are just that way.

It can't, that, that, that answer is, is so old and ridiculous that you get, but it still exists.

And I think it's one of the things is making men understand that.

I, I think I tell, I've told you this story when I was walking down the street with my

oldest son, who's a big guy.

And I started looking around.

It was dark.

And as usual, I was checking my surroundings because that's what a woman does every minute of the day, no matter where you are, no matter who you are, you do that.

And

he's like, what are you doing?

And I'm like, oh, I wanted to make sure we're safe and he's like why would you be unsafe and i said oh my god like i can't like i can't even he's raised by two lesbians in san francisco and he still he still felt safe and i didn't and it was a really interesting moment and i and we are well-to-do people and everything else i mean in a in a in a city neighborhood still it's an urban setting but um it's uh

and you know cities are well anywhere can be anything so it just was interesting that the dichotomy between how i looked at things and how he did and i I was like, how do I get through to him lack of safety?

And I think I extend it on to the internet people all the time.

I'm like, the reason why bullying lasted so long on all these platforms is because these men had never been unsafe.

They didn't understand lack of safety.

And that's a big,

if everybody could understand that and be empathetic to it and a bed of empathy, as Scott Galloway said on Bill Maher's show,

it would be much better.

Thank you.

I think there's two things to play with your son.

And the first is instinctually,

the male gender is about

seeing an animal from 200 meters away and quickly reacting and moving to violence.

And women are much more thoughtful about their immediate surroundings and noticing things.

So it's hardwired into us.

But also, the sad truth is women are less safe.

That's the sad truth, is that that's the reality.

Women are less safe.

So they're smart to be more thoughtful around them.

And that gets to your point.

It's like, well, why is that?

Yeah, we need to do it.

But I do think

the loud left and the loud right, especially the loud right, is not start stopping Peter Thiel just put $10 million into super PAC backing potential Ohio Senate candidate J.D.

Vance, who wrote Hillbilly Elegy.

I think the loud parts aren't going away for anytime soon.

I got to tell you, Scott.

Except I like you loud on the Bill Maher show.

That I liked.

Well, you know what?

There's the loud parts and then there's the hard parts.

We need to call him.

We need to call him.

Oh, that was good erectile dysfunction, human.

You have already signed up during the entire interview.

I could hear you typing, signing up.

Anyway,

it could help you on so many levels.

I mean, like, really, at least

skincare.

Can I be erectile carefully

hair, which I think is going to be a heavy lift for you?

And then, and then what else was there?

Some COVID-1.

So anyway, it was all, it was kind of a built-fruit.

I think.

I think hymns could make me, I literally think hymns could make me feel 55 and 7.8s again.

You need to wander over to hers and see what you can get available over there for you.

Anyway, Scott, that's the show.

We'll be back on Friday for more.

Congratulations on your show.

Sirius, everyone should watch it.

There's clips all over the internets.

Thank you for saying that.

That means a lot to me.

You should watch him because he did a great dog episode.

It was fantastic.

Anyway, go to newyorknymag.com slash pivot to submit your questions for the pivot podcast.

The link is also in our show notes.

And we will be back with another episode at the end of the week.

Scott, read us out.

Today's show is produced by Rebecca Sinanas, Arnie Andritot, engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Hannah Hannah Rosen and Drew Burroughs.

Thank you, Drew, for always figuring out my shit when I'm on the road.

I appreciate it.

Make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts.

Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Karen, Rebecca, have a fantastic week.

This month on Explain It to Me, we're talking about all things wellness.

We spend nearly $2 trillion on things that are supposed to make us well: collagen smoothies, and cold plunges, Pilates classes, and fitness trackers.

But what does it actually mean to be well?

Why do we want that so badly?

And is all this money really making us healthier and happier?

That's this month on Explain It To Me, presented by Pureleaf.

mike and alyssa are always trying to outdo each other when alyssa got a small water bottle mike showed up with a four liter jug

when mike started gardening alyssa started beekeeping oh come on they called it truce for their holiday and used expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip once there mike still did more laps around the pool whatever

You were made to outdo your holidays.

We were made to help organize the competition.

Expedia, made to travel.