U.K. says Uber drivers are employees, and the future of cyber attacks

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I am one split end away from cutting my own bangs, Carol.

By the way.

Bang is what you should say.

Bang.

Is there a hair on that head of yours?

Have you seen my eyebrows and the amount of hair I have in my ears?

I'm going to start braiding the two together.

Oh, that's a good guy.

You know, let me just tell you, a handsome bald man, Stanley Tucci.

I was watching the CNN special here.

I'm good.

Wandering around Italy.

He reminds me of you a little bit, except he's charming and delightful.

Go on.

You don't look, you don't move unlike each other.

You're both tall, skinny men of baldness.

You're tracking my movements.

You're

sexy beasts today.

What's going on with you?

Listen,

before that, the reason I watched Stanley Choo Choos because I watched the Dylan the Dylan Farrow documentary, Alan versus Faroe.

Oh, shit, here we go.

We could only have bald, handsome fun for 10 seconds before we got into male.

I watched that documentary.

And by the way, everybody should watch it.

You know what?

I can't even do it.

I've seen it.

It's so well done.

I haven't seen it, and I've seen that.

No, you haven't.

This is well done.

This is devastating.

I have to say.

In any case, I then had to see.

I saw Hannah Her Sisters, one of my favorite movies, Hannah and Her Sisters.

It's just going to raise.

You can't watch it anymore after seeing it.

Don't watch the documentary then.

That's all I have to say.

Crimes and misdemeanors.

Yeah, crimes is a good way to get into this issue and not misdemeanors.

Going back to my back to my...

We had to watch Stanley Tucci afterwards because it was so heartbreaking.

And then we were happy because he was eating seafood stew and stuff.

Italian food, right?

Yeah.

Just like going from a wine, like there's like, in Florence, there's holes in the wall they hand you wine out of.

Very likable, very handsome.

I have to say

he'll probably be accused of cultural appropriation or something.

So

by touring around Italy, hello, Tucci.

Swisher's Italian too, by the way.

That sounds very Italian.

I'm half Italian.

Like an Italian cleaning product.

Swisher.

My parents were full Italian.

My mom.

Get rid of the kitchen grind.

We are people of Italy.

We're born in a my grandfather was born in a town called Felite in Italy.

God, that's fascinating insight.

Anyways, back to me.

So my statement, one,

one, what was it, split end, that split in away from doing my own

streaming bank banks.

That's a quote or that's a line from, have you been watching WandaVision?

No, but I should.

I should.

You really should.

It's really interesting.

And you're one of these Marvel weirdos.

You like that whole thing?

I haven't gotten to it.

It's a Marvel.

It's way too much to get to.

I've been watching it with my 10-year-old son, and I'm not exaggerating.

We stop.

I do what I hate when other people do.

I pause it and I'm like, what's going on here?

Who is that?

What's going on here?

I hate when people do that.

I'm like, just watch the goddamn program.

You're not supposed to understand it all.

And I've been pausing it.

We never watch TV together.

We should not watch it.

What is this?

Are you kidding?

We watch an hour of TV together every week, twice a week.

We talk to ourselves.

That's true.

But I'm talking about like a month.

Well, you and I are going to watch a mutant movie together.

That's what we're going to do.

A mutant movie.

We're going to watch the movie.

Let me just say.

But anyways, WanaVision, I think Disney has kind of a second big hit on its hands.

I think it's really interesting.

It could be.

It's really interesting.

It's very different.

And there's a lot of really good actors.

There's so much good TV.

I like cross-generational TV, too.

I like being able to watch TV with my boys.

There's a ton of good television.

There's nothing to be said about it.

There's so much going on.

Anyways, WandaVision.

Watch it, Karen.

Okay, I shall.

Now, enough with the TV recommendations.

Big news today from the Supreme Court denied Donald Trump's bid to block New York's prosecutors from accessing his taxes.

It's the Al Capone moment.

Dominion Voting Systems is suing the My Pillow Guy, which is a pleasure, Mike Lindell, for more than $1.3 billion.

You know, I talked to the Dominion Systems Voting Systems CEO, and he said he was going to do this, and then he did.

And now Merrick Garland's up on the ⁇ it's just not a good moment for the Trump people today.

This is a bad Trump time.

But there's a, I think there's some, and a little bit of this is aspirational or confirmation bias, but I think there really is a very strong sense of the immunities kicking in.

And talking about unification, I don't think after something like this, you can unify until you hold people accountable.

I think you have trouble.

They're still kicking, though.

They're still kicking.

I don't know.

I think there's a decent chance

the former president is in real legal jeopardy.

Yeah, everyone is saying, oh, he's going to run for president.

I'm like, I don't know.

I think he's in real trouble.

This one's bad.

This one's bad.

Tax fraud brought Al Capone down, Al Capone moment.

That's interesting.

It's an interesting question of whether he's still.

He's going to appear this week at CPAC, I think, today or tomorrow or something like that.

So he's back blabbing away.

It's going to do the same old act.

But you're right.

Immunities are key.

And by the way, Pfizer's COVID vaccine stopped 89.4% of transmissions in Israel.

This is the most important news story of the year.

And it's just so exciting.

I've been thinking about this a lot because

there is a narrative that has developed amongst

college-educated, wealthy, and middle-class households.

Yeah.

That, okay, so you know how 80% of people believe that they're better than average drivers,

which obviously makes no sense.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

All right.

Okay.

You're in the 20% of self-aware.

But essentially, the majority of people have convinced themselves that, okay, I'm in decent shape.

I take care of myself.

I'm a good driver.

I'm probably not going to get it.

But even if I did, and I know a bunch of people

who have gotten it and said, oh, it wasn't a big deal.

So, and then they hear the

nonsense junk science that is amplified on Facebook, less so on Google.

On YouTube, I want to just give a shout-out.

When I talk about my book, Post-Corona, on YouTube, they take it down because they're like, We don't want anyone talking about Corona, and I respect that.

But, anyways, on Facebook, where they continue to spread or where or anti-vax content continues to run amok,

and they have done a little better, anyways.

The bottom line is, people have bought into this narrative that, oh,

in a cost-benefit trade-off, I'm going to wait.

Because even if I get it, it's probably not, I'm probably 0.01% fatality rate.

I'm in that group.

And what this shows, what this shows is the question you should be asking yourself is not, are you worried about getting COVID?

The question you should be asking yourself is, are you worried about someone you love getting COVID?

And if you are, if you are, even if you've talked yourself into believing you'll be fine, it doesn't matter.

You need to get this vaccine.

This is about not being a fiber in the web of death that is snaring our most vulnerable.

89%.

Although, let me just say, some people think the Biden administration is too negative and it's causing more of that anti-vax

too negative.

Well, they're being like, be careful, it's not working.

We're still in trouble.

I think the problem is they've got to keep warning people not to.

Yeah, they don't want anyone to get relaxed.

Relaxed.

And at the same time,

they're encouraging it and they're making it possible.

1.7 million vaccines, way above what they said they were going to do.

So it's a real interesting question.

I mean, David Lee.

A lot more than that.

Something like 14, 15% of America's already been vaccinated.

No, no, I meant 1.7 million a day.

That's

whatever the number they're doing a day or a week.

I think it's a week.

Sorry.

But one of the things that's really interesting is that you like Fauci was on the thing saying, keep your mask on.

You have to have masks in 2002.

And then, you know, they're saying things are going, getting better.

And then the herd immunity is getting closer.

I think

35% of people are immune because they had COVID.

Another

12% to 14% have had the vaccine.

So it's getting to the, they got to get to an 85%.

Anyway, you do feel like today is a freezing day in D.C.

and but the temperature is rising today.

And all this week, it's going to be in the 50s.

And I have a feeling, I just, I cannot take it anymore this winter and this covet and everything else i think people are at that moment so they've got to keep in control of the face masks and things like that at the same time uh feel hopefulness at least and and and want to take the vaccine in order to move that along faster this is so exciting though if you if you think about it it's not only

you know i mean my my biggest fear has been uh my my kids grandparents one of them is uh immunocompromised and i thought okay this is how she dies uh one One of us gets it.

We get a flu.

Okay, we're fine.

A headache, a flu, whatever.

And then there's always a non-zero probability you'd be a long hauler.

I know some young people who have contracted this and they're still dealing with it.

But the majority of the people I know have gotten through it.

But then you give it to somebody.

My friend's father, a close friend, David Lister's father was a pediatric surgeon, lived a fantastic life and passed away from this and probably had a few more good years.

So this is not only about, again, the question isn't about, do you want to get COVID?

The question is, do you want anyone you love to get COVID?

And this shows, this shows that

the narcissist, what I call playbook of, well, I'm going to wait.

Well, that shit, that dog doesn't hunt you.

You get in that line.

You do not wait.

You get in.

Get in line.

It's so interesting because there's a whole, you know, this who gets in line and stuff like that.

I still obviously haven't gotten line because I'm not up yet.

But the idea of line waiting is really kind of, I think it's frustrating to a lot of people.

At the same time, you have to wait in line.

As I told you, I have some relatives that jump the line and I just don't want want to speak to them.

I just don't want to speak to them.

Unfairly.

And then other people are guilty because there was a friend of mine who was eligible for the line and was thinking about not taking it.

It was, I forget why they were eligible.

It was either they were a teacher or something that was totally legit,

whatever state they're in.

But then they're like, well, my grandfather hasn't gotten it yet.

And I'm like, well,

you're in the line, whatever the line's rules are.

Get a needle in your eyes.

Get it.

Get it.

Get it.

Get it clear.

You're in the line and you're being fair.

And take it.

If you're a a vacation, if you're a vaccine tourist or you're jumping the line unfairly, you're an asshole.

And take pictures, and take pictures of you getting it to make people like you more comfortable with it.

The number of people who claim they're going to get it has gone up because what's happened is now that, I don't know, whatever, 55 million people have received a vaccine, and there's been very, very few.

I mean, like, no instance.

I mean, this is like odds are not only greater being eaten by a shark or struck by lightning, your odds are about the same as a struck vaccine.

Struck by lightning while being eaten.

All right, speaking of immunities kicking in, we're going to get to our big stories.

Big stories.

The UK's Supreme Court has ruled that Uber drivers are not self-employed.

The ruling essentially means that the UK Uber drivers need to be treated like employees and not gig workers.

That includes paid time off and minimum wage.

Uber's share prices dipped in the United States following the news.

It's unclear how the UK ruling will affect Uber's business model overall.

When Uber listed its shares in the United States in 2019, its filing, the Securities and Exchange Commission included the section on the risks if they would have to classify drivers as employees in compensating them.

So, Scott,

is this like GDPR for gig workers or not?

That was the law that changed things around privacy, et cetera, in the U.S., changed globally.

But what do you think is going to happen?

I think this is, again, it goes back.

I think this is...

directly related to the Facebook Australia fight.

And I think the rest of of the world, their immunities are kicking in sooner because they get all of the downside of big tech and a fraction of the upside.

And the notion that also reflects well in the UK where money hasn't perverted politics as much as it has in the U.S., where a proposition in the U.S.

This is legal, this is judges, but go ahead.

Yeah, $150 million to the AB5 and then $3 million against it.

Guess

which ballot, which side won.

But I think, look, there's just no getting around it.

If we want to wait for the government to catch up and have a new classification of worker, fine.

But until then, until then, we want to err on the side.

Billionaires have increased their wealth from $1.9 trillion to $4 trillion in the last 10 years.

Minimum wage has exploded from $7.25 to $7.25.

And yet we have a company that's figured out a way to skirt even those minimum wage laws with software called Uber, called Lyft.

The gig economy is, there's a cancerous part of it and if we're going to err if we're going to err and maybe it's clumsy and maybe we need a new classification fine but the fact that that a guy or a gal turning on software to drive people in the back might make at least minimum wage i mean is that really a threat to capitalism is that really

it's definitely a threat to their business i mean you know i mean i think it has iterations throughout the like to to door dash to everything else there's a real struggle between things that consumers really like, like fast delivery or cars on demand and stuff like that, and what it actually costs.

And whenever Uber was initially, when they were doing those $4 across the city things, I don't know if you remember when you'd take it and it would cost like $6 or something like that.

I literally was like, I just paid $4 an Uber.

It did not cost $4.

It did not.

It cost me $4, but not society, not the driver.

This is just bullshit.

Like someone somewhere is paying for my ride.

Order that little black dress from HM and decide how much that's costing somebody.

I think about it a lot.

I think think about it a lot.

We have fetishized the consumer in our society.

We've decided whatever the consumer wants, whatever the end consumer wants, that's how we should dictate antitrust law or consumer laws.

And it's like, no, we have people who are thoughtful, who will look at the supply chain, who will look at emissions, who will look at carbon, who will look at child labor, who will look at minimum wage loss.

and will step in when there's externalities that arise.

And unfortunately, unfortunately, big tech is very smart,

very well researched, and steps in with charming individuals and lobbyists to suppress

that intervention called regulation around externalities.

Capitalism is not an organic state.

If it doesn't sit on a bed of empathy, you end up as a Central American nation with a rich...

You're full of them, Jay, fetishizing consumers' bed of empathy.

You sleep on a bed of empathy.

No, I slept on edibles, and I think I'm still tripping a little bit.

But essentially, if we don't have people in all this bullshit narrative that, oh, you're against capitalism, the the whole point of capitalism is we intervene to adjust around externalities and a huge externality around a class of people called Uber drivers, and not all of them,

a large portion, maybe even the majority of Uber drivers, when you talk to them, like it.

They say they like it.

It provides flexibility.

They do.

But there's a percentage of them that should be making more money and they should be passing those costs on to the consumer, even if it makes it a smaller business, even if Uber isn't worth more than Ford and General Motors.

That's okay.

that's okay that's our job to make sure that capitalism we continue to do well by doing good i'm um anyways go u kingdom go united kingdom go united but

you're a shareholder of uber how would you play it how would you play this the situation of beds of empathy and fetishizing him i would get out ahead of it and you know what darakasrashahi should be credited with what was probably the most strategic and deft acquisition of last year their acquisition of the food delivery company was was it Postmates?

Who did they acquire?

One of them.

Postmates, yeah.

Yeah.

So, look, he has pivoted his business and diversified it and said, okay, instead of the novel coronavirus taking wind out of my sale, I'm going to put more wind in my sale.

And he took an inflated currency, in my view, I think Uber's dramatically overvalued.

Yeah.

And use that.

And what do you do when you're in?

I guess they wouldn't be considered.

Delivery people really aren't thought of as employees, are they?

But

that was a great move.

So

I think that was probably one of the better acquisitions.

If I were Dara, I would try and get out ahead of it.

And I would say, we're going to, I mean, quite frankly, you should pull a Brian Chesky, where I'm a shareholder, and say, we're going to get out ahead of this and position the company around its stakeholder.

There's a face the music issue on employees and a face-the-music issue on advertising.

And, you know, interesting, Corey Doctrow had a really amazing thread on Twitter.

I recommend it.

I was going to read the first part.

There's an old Irish joke whose punchline goes, if you want, get there, I wouldn't start from here.

That's basically how I feel about the so-called Australian link tax and Facebook's retaliation.

Let's start with the fact that it's not a link tax.

And then they talk about the arbitration and stuff like that.

They design, let me read that.

They design their system so publishers leak intelligence to them.

Then they exploit the leakage to gouge the publishers further.

It hurts advertisers, readers, and publishers, and it's a result of illegal, collusive, corrupt ad technology duopoly.

And the existence of an advertising duopoly, meanwhile, is a result of a lax antitrust enforcement.

Facebook and Google were permitted to execute a long string of anti-competitive mergers and acquisitions producing the hyper-concentrated

market we see today.

The obvious remedy to this situation is to break up the monopolies.

That is off the table for now.

40 years of neoliberal orthodoxy said monopolies are efficient and breakups don't work.

So we're left yanking on other policy levers.

Anyway, these are the two areas, I think,

this idea of

owning markets and how to deal with employees that are going to be the big ones for tech to deal with.

Yeah,

and I think there's an investment strategy here.

For the first time,

my investment advice for the last 10 years has been don't buy anything that's not an unregulated monopoly.

Amazon, Apple, Facebook, and Google, there's no need to buy anything else.

And I'm actually personally about to make two

investments, and I make usually one to two investments a year.

And I think there is a,

my big thing is dispersion, but I also think that content and a healthier web ecosystem is a great place to invest right now because I think a lot of people, including consumers, their elected representatives, have decided, okay, we need a less toxic web.

And also, also, I think a decent place to invest right now, and I'll talk more about this once the investments close because I like to disclose.

I think content and news and local news are about to have their day in the sun after getting the shit kicked out of them for the last 20 or 30 years.

I'd like to hear about where you're going with this.

Okay.

Anyway, so what would you, would you buy Uber?

If you didn't think a menace economy and not lying on a bed of empathy,

what would you buy?

I don't know.

I haven't looked at, I just, I look at the stock and I think, wow, this is really fully valued.

I think DARA is a really talented strategic executive, and I think it was a great acquisition.

I wouldn't want to be on the side of a gig economy company that still has employees working for less than minimum wage.

I just don't.

Even if it's only 10% of them, I just wouldn't want to.

That to me feels really offensive.

Minimum wage should be what they should be paying, $15 an hour.

How about you?

Would you buy Uber?

I don't buy any of them, so I don't really have to worry about my, you know.

But, you know, I have very, I have a very small FOMA greed thing going on.

So I go, oh, I should have taken that job at Google.

And then I'm like, oh, those assholes.

You know what I mean?

That's what happens.

It happens with all of them.

I was offered jobs at all of them.

So I'm always like, oh, I really couldn't be in like Fiji right now on my yacht.

You in Fiji out of your yacht.

I'm just saying, I could be.

I could have.

I literally was offered jobs.

I would have been very wealthy.

And then I know, but that's not what you would do with your money.

That's ridiculous.

You're right.

I would have taken it.

It's not right wing.

But in any case, every time I do that and I realize that I really was there and had the, and actually not just was there, but had the offer.

And then I didn't take it.

And it's a dozen times it's happened.

I'm like,

I don't want to work for those assholes.

Like, it's just, it just kicks in.

My, I don't want to work for those assholes is stronger than my greed and FOMA about money.

I just can't.

I just can't sustain interest in it in any way.

I have plenty of money.

Anyway, Scott, we're going to take take a quick break.

And when we're back, you'll be joined by New York Times best-selling author Nicole Perlroth to talk cybersecurity.

She has a new book that's really scary.

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Moving on, we have a friend of Pivot.

Nicole Perlroth is the New York Times cybersecurity reporter and the New York Times best-selling author of This Is How They Tell Me the World Ends.

It's about cybersecurity

weapons race, essentially.

Nicole, welcome.

Thanks for having me.

So, you know, one of the things we've talked before many times about this, and you write a lot of stories of what happens, talk about why you decided to write the book, because we're in the middle of a huge attack, the SolarWinds attack.

We'll get to that in a minute, and the role of

FireEye and Microsoft in this.

But talk to me about why you decided to write this book.

So the short answer is I had been covering these major attacks and I kept seeing my name in the footnotes of other people writing books.

And I just had to kind of give myself a pep talk and say, you know, you know these attacks better than anyone except for the people on the ground.

Write a book.

So that's why I wrote the book.

And I crammed everything in from the last seven to 10 years of reporting.

And then I sent it in.

And then this giant solar winds attack happened.

So in some ways, it's the prelude to solar winds.

But why I chose to focus specifically on the cyber weapons market is I had seen over and over again that regulation was not going to get us out of this.

You know, businesses were just incentivized to get their product to market.

Government was incentivized to keep a lot of this software vulnerable so they could preserve their espionage advantage and their battlefield preparations.

And as individuals, security is so annoying.

We don't like turning on two-factor authentication.

So I wanted to focus on the incentive models and see what the incentive structures were and how they could possibly pull us out of this.

So you're saying that they want to get this software out to serve people who don't want to deal with issues of security.

And then the government likes it, that U.S.

government especially lets this sort of gray market go on and attack these software programs we all use every day.

Yes.

And I had heard murmurings of this gray market, but it still blew me away that the U.S.

government, you know, these agencies charged with keeping us safe, were paying hackers, some of them all over the world, in Europe and Israel, as young as 16 or 15 years old, to turn over a vulnerability in software software that we all rely on and then never tell a soul, you know, lock them up in NDAs and then increasingly classification levels.

And maybe that was okay two decades ago when Russia was using one piece of software and we were using another, but we all use the same software now.

You know, whether you know it or not, we all use Microsoft Windows.

And so I was fascinated by this idea that our own government would preserve a vulnerability in Microsoft Windows so it could spy on Iran or so it could get into Iran centrifuges and take them out one day.

And increasingly we're rolling that.

Yes, this was Duxnet.

And increasingly we're rolling all that software into our things and into our power grid and into our water treatment facilities.

And so it seemed like the stakes were getting higher and higher, but no one even knew that this secret market for vulnerabilities existed.

Right.

I'm going to ask one more question, then Scott will jump in.

Solar winds, explain it to people.

This is the biggest hack that has happened on the United States government and companies.

Yes.

So SolarWinds is probably the most pervasive attack we've seen on our systems.

And we only learned about it.

And this is the part I think really is key.

We only learned about it, not from our government, not from the NSA, not from Cyber Command.

We learned about it because FireEye, a security firm, was itself hacked.

And then in unwinding its own attack, it realized that these hackers had come in through technology made by SolarWinds, an American company that makes software that just allows IT administrators to see what's on their network.

And that software, that visibility software, was used by more than 400 of the Fortune 500 and some of our most sensitive government agencies like the Department of Energy, which oversees our nuclear labs, Treasury, Commerce, State, justice, and Homeland Security, the very agency charged with keeping us safe.

The problem is that they've been in our systems for so long, we think since at least March of 2020, that they had vast opportunities to plant more back doors and more applications.

And it will be a very long time before we uncover every single one of those.

So essentially, what's happened here is the Biden administration just inherited a communication system it cannot trust.

Now, the good news is we think this was espionage.

We think they were after emails, strategy planning documents.

The bad news is Russian actors, not the one we think was was guilty here, the SVR, but other Russian actors have used the same technique for much darker purposes, like wiping data, paralyzing networks.

This is

shutting off the power in Ukraine.

In Ukraine.

All right, Scott.

So just

I had never really looked at that.

I think that's fascinating that companies and people are not only competing against bad actors or competing against the government.

That's just such an interesting insight.

So thank you for that.

The question I have is: can you give us the state of play around competence?

If you think of every nation state that has its own cyber

warfare and cyber defense resources, give us a sense for handicap the league, who's kind of best to worst among call it the G20 or non-G20?

Who are the Tom Brady's and the people who just don't don't know what they're doing?

Such a good question.

So, you know, we, I think, remain the world's top cyber superpower.

What we did with Stuxnet, where us, you know, us being the NSA and Israel, hacked into an Iranian nuclear facility 10 years ago, jumped from the window systems into the industrial controls.

and spun those centrifuges in some cases so fast that it destroyed the uranium and in some cases slowed them down to a trickle and did it in a way that it looked like a natural accident.

No one has ever come close to that.

That is still to this day, 10 years later, the most sophisticated cyber attack we've ever seen.

Other countries who are capable of doing that include Israel because we did it with them.

And then I would say just below them, if not tied, are Russia,

China, the United Kingdom.

and maybe France or Germany.

But then below that is this huge, wide gap.

And then you have the actors who really want to do harm or really want to exploit financial systems for profit, like North Korea.

And 10 years ago, they were way behind us.

They had the intent to do harm, but they didn't have the capabilities.

And what this market has done, the one that I'm writing about, about purchasing these capabilities from hackers and these vulnerabilities in code that you can use for espionage, but also destruction, what that market has done is closed this capabilities gap substantially.

So Iran is not where the NSA is, but what they've learned is they can do just as much damage with rudimentary code that just wipes out the data at Saudi Aramco, which they did a few years ago, where they replaced it with an image of a burning American flag.

And so the gap is closing.

And the other thing I would say is, yes, we are the most advanced cyber superpower, but we are also among the most targeted nation states on earth because we have systems of most interest.

And we are the most vulnerable because we're the most wired.

And we don't seem to understand that this philosophy at Facebook of move fast and break things, you know, get as much out there as possible, be first to market.

It has really harmed us when it comes to security.

So we have some work to do on defense, but we are still way far ahead on offense.

Offense alone doesn't work.

Right.

So defense,

you're essentially saying the reason we're robbed is because that's where the money is.

That's where, whether it's ransomware attacks or if you're trying to do malevolent things like what happened in Florida on a grid.

Because there's all kinds of flavors of this.

There's malevolent, there's just money, there's just espionage, and then there's just wreaking havoc or trying like misinformation, which is a whole nother, you know, the misinformation and disinformation campaigns by the Soviet Union and I mean, Russia and others.

Talk about defense, because this is one of the issues you and I have spoken about.

We just, we have in the Biden administration, there is now Ann Neuberger who is leading the way in terms of dealing with this, but it's on an emergency level.

And, you know, I wrote a column recently about this, which I also quoted you in,

where, you know, they missed it in the Trump administration.

I think one of them called me and said, we didn't miss it.

I go, well, you missed it.

Like, I don't think you didn't miss it.

You know, maybe you knew about it.

You didn't tell anybody.

I don't know.

But how did that happen?

How did our defenses fall so badly?

And is this the solution to do it on an emergency basis every time rather than have a central command?

Like, because there's so many different players.

There's Paul Nakasomi, there's this, there's this person, this person.

What do we have to do to have better defense?

Well, it's a really good question with a really hard answer.

I mean, what Russia did with SolarWinds is they got our number.

They exploited our red tape brilliantly because what they did was they got into these first into SolarWinds, which is an American company's software.

They got into SolarWinds clients through their software update mechanism.

But where they set up their command and control was in New Jersey using servers from GoDaddy and from Amazon.

And that's where the NSA can't look.

You know, the NSA cannot look into these domestic systems.

That's how we are set up.

So, in a lot of ways, Russia just used our Constitution against us, like they have with misinformation and disinformation, where they've used our First Amendment against us.

So, this is a really hard problem to solve for.

One of the things that the Trump administration did is they rolled out this executive order, which basically says companies like Amazon and GoDaddy have to report which foreigners are registered under their systems,

in part because clearly we were blinded by this attack by Russia.

I don't know if that's going to be enough.

And I don't know what the American tolerance is for going any further, especially after all the discussions we had with Snowden, Edward Snowden, the contractor who leaked the NSA documents.

So it's a really hard question to solve for, which is why in the book I say, let's just start with baby steps here.

Let's take inventory of what's in our systems.

Let's know what software touches our systems.

Let's know how much of it is American-made.

In the case of solar winds, a lot of that software was built in places like Belarus, you know, where we just don't have

the same visibility or maybe the same level of security.

A lot of the victims didn't even know they used SolarWinds.

A lot of the tools that make its way into software like SolarWinds is open source, you know, these open source protocols that are often just one dude sitting on his couch, you know, operating on a volunteer budget.

So let's take inventory of how much software is making its way.

into these critical and sensitive systems.

And then let's talk about how to secure it, whether it's making sure it has multi-factor authentication, making sure we're doing code audits and penetration tests,

you know, making sure individuals understand that it should be mandatory to have to turn on two-factor authentication and to use different passwords because they're all gone.

We're just, there's no point in even in some ways discussing the higher up things when we can't even get the basics right.

And the basics would wipe out 70% of the threat.

It wouldn't stop solar winds, but it would get us to a much better place than we are right now where hospitals are getting ransomwared all the time, schools are getting locked up and taken offline.

You know,

everyone's using, you know, phishing for fraud scams and that kind of thing.

But Nicole,

so, and this is my theme, that everything is essentially a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, the young to the old, and to small and medium-sized businesses to large businesses.

My understanding of espionage is that there's political

and geo, kind of geopolitical espionage, and then there's corporate espionage, which is basically China planning spies inside companies and saying, hey, send us the IP for this company, and we're going to figure out a way to knock it off.

And my understanding is that the resources allocated to corporate espionage has grown, has exploded exponentially because money is very powerful in terms of geopolitical power.

And

when you see this ransomware,

at the end of the day,

isn't there an entire industrial complex dependent upon small and medium-sized businesses remaining to be vulnerable, such that big companies and big tech can cash the register or ring the register or go public?

And there's a disincentive to protect small and medium-sized businesses because this is an enormously lucrative industry for big tech?

Yeah, it's such a good question.

Kara and I have talked about this before.

You know, where this is all going is mom and pop businesses small and medium-sized businesses do not have the resources to hire the top security engineers they don't have the money to put in place the intrusion detection tools and the network monitoring tools and all of the fancy stuff you can buy from fire eye and crowd strike so that's not the case at amazon and google right most of their security teams these days are like mini intelligence agencies yeah they're all former NSA, CIA, Australia, UK, GCHQ, analysts and operators and hackers.

They have huge intelligence agencies within their businesses looking for this stuff, which means you are better off as a medium, small, medium-sized business in using Amazon Web Services or the Google Cloud than you are trying to manage all your data with some server in the back office.

And what that means is it's precisely what you just said, Scott, which is the business is is drifting to the big players because the small players just don't have the resources to protect their data.

And in a lot of cases, that is why ransomware is hitting these small, medium-sized businesses, and not just businesses, but municipalities, small, medium towns that just oversee these tangled webs of outdated software.

And they don't monitor who's accessing what, and they don't have two-factor authentication on.

So they're really ripe, easy targets for ransomware.

I want to talk specifically about a platform.

And I want to tell you that I always say I'm paranoid, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

And you tell me if I have a tinfoil hat on or there's any logic to my fears here.

When I started being very openly critical on Twitter of Putin, I started finding that a lot of people came into my feed with a very basic, Scott, love your work.

It's always the same thing: love your work, but on this one, you have it wrong.

And then slowly but surely, and then when I also,

and the threat is internal, started criticizing the septic tank, which is the portfolio of some VCs in San Francisco, all of these bots started showing up.

Or if I say Tesla is overvalued, and now my feed is littered with accounts

that say very, very disparaging things and seem in a methodical way to be attacking.

my credibility, quite frankly.

And I click on them, low follower count, and can't find a person here.

I'm under the belief or the notion that if I were in the GRU, that the most cost-effective weapon would be to identify 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 people who are anti-Russia and just slowly but surely attack their credibility.

And so my question is, is that going on to the extent I think it is?

And two,

what do you think?

I think Twitter should have identity.

And I think this First Amendment cloud cover bullshit, that what about

the journalist in the Gulf reporting on human rights?

I'm like, you know what?

I think we could probably figure that out.

It's pretty easy to see when someone is reporting legitimate news and when they aren't.

Is the problem as absolutely out of control as I think it is specifically on Twitter?

And what do you believe should be done around identity or forcing identity on these platforms?

Well, one caveat here I would say is there's a lot of enthusiastic Tesla.

So yeah, I don't know if that's the Russians, but I agree with you.

I think Twitter Twitter has vastly underestimated what we call sophisticated chat bots these days.

They're much more sophisticated than they were in 2016.

They recognize natural language and they can respond in natural language.

And they're taught to search for keywords or, you know, tweets critical of Putin and come after you.

That is very, very real.

I have talked to former Twitter security folks who say that is one of the reasons they quit because Twitter was not

adequately addressing the bot problem.

And, you know, they've come a long way, but they're nowhere near where they need to be.

Also, I have the same problem.

I've had things where I've said anything critical of Russia or tried to attribute a Russian disinformation campaign.

And next thing I know, people are tweeting out cartoons with my face on it, walking into a gas chamber.

I mean, really heinous, anti-Semitic stuff.

This is a big problem.

So it's a big problem.

Yeah.

So, I mean, in some ways, yes, I agree with you.

It's the same same trade-off that we always talk, you know,

be careful what you wish for.

But yes, my knee-jerk reaction is we need better identity on Twitter.

I don't see the same level of vitriol or bots or disinformation on LinkedIn.

LinkedIn is a metric.

Because of identity, 100%.

Yes.

And it's not an ad-driven model.

Subscription and identity.

And what do you know?

Anyway, I'm sorry, Nicole.

No, that's no, it's true.

I've just noticed it just with my book coming out.

The conversations on LinkedIn are nuanced.

They're pleasant, they're thought, you know, thought-provoking.

Twitter is horrible.

Yeah, they're exactly.

And I don't, you know, but then I don't know what to do about the journalists in the Middle East and how to solve for that.

But, you know, Saudi Arabia, we caught them planting spies at Twitter, literally planting employees at Twitter.

So they're working their way around it anyway.

You know, and also Twitter has a profit motive to keep it going, to ignore it.

Yeah.

yeah, one of the things people have said is, let's get rid of trending topics because that really, you know, drives a little bit of a lot of people.

And in Facebook groups, and in Facebook

rules around groups, which is the same thing.

All right.

I have one last question for you.

This is how they tell me the world ends.

How does the world end for us from a cyber point?

If you had the worst case scenario for you, what is it?

Well, the worst case scenario is sort of where we already are.

Oh, dear.

You know, we're our intellectuals.

One minute to to midnight, man.

One minute.

You and I should roll.

You and I are the same.

Other than you being more educated and more credible, we have the same view of the world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Also, they're out to get optimistic.

I like the glass half empty kind of guest.

Okay.

All right.

Rock on, my sister.

Rock on.

Yeah.

Okay.

How does it end?

No, I mean, we are our, Russia's in our government.

networks.

They're in our grid.

They've gotten into the power, the power plants.

We've seen them break into nuclear plants.

Our hospitals are getting ransomware.

China is making off with our intellectual property.

And our water treatment facilities are now getting hacked.

The reason the worst case scenario is just one more minute away is because no one has actually used these accesses to turn off the power yet.

But it doesn't mean it's two clicks away.

So that's why, you know, this is how they tell me the world ends.

It's time to just really wake up.

Right.

Because what are we waiting for?

Are we waiting for them to turn off our lights are we waiting for this geopolitical trigger or do we want to do something right now and i think the answer is we probably should start doing something right now so ted cruise may be a victim no i'm kidding he's not oh god oh god why no because texas it seems to be the weather in that case at least oh right yeah no i mean how interesting i mean i've been talking about what what would be the threat if the power got turned off or the drinking water supply was contaminated and it turns out it wasn't a cyber attack it was just this underinvestment in winterizing but yeah yep yeah absolutely that's what it would look like yep 100

anyway nicole thank you so much her book is this is how they tell me the world ends it's so worth it's it reads like a thriller is there gonna be a movie there's a tv show i can say that now there's this will be my um a big announcement oh telling

fx optioned it so it'll be a tv show so who's gonna star as you i don't think i'm gonna even even be in it they're making it much more interesting.

Okay.

I love her.

I love her.

Jessica Chastine.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

She's in a lot of people.

She's such a babe.

She's such a babe.

All right.

Oh, God.

I don't see Nicole.

She's just a very impressive

lady.

It's terrible with a lot better hair.

In any case, Nicole, thank you so much for coming on.

Congrats on the book, Nicole.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So fun talking to you guys.

Likewise.

That was Nicole Pearl Roth.

Scott, I knew you would like her.

I did.

She's a cyber brilliant reporter.

And she reinforces my paranoia, which I like.

Oh, great.

Perfect.

All right.

They are out to get you, Scott.

They really are.

We'll be back after this for Wins and Fails.

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Okay, Scott, wins and fails.

What?

Do you have any?

Do you have any?

Yeah, I always have them.

And

I literally develop them as I'm talking to you.

Here's a fascinating win.

This is not really a win or a fail.

I just discovered all these girl singers.

You know, I'm aware of Selena Gomez and the rest of them and Britney Spears, et cetera, like and things like that.

But I'm thinking of interviewing someone.

I'm trying to think about whether it's, I think, Jojo Suwa, who is this,

she was on dance moms.

She wears a thing in her hair,

a bow in her hair all the time.

She's really kind of crazily a capitalistic

something.

She's selling shampoo and stuff like that.

Well, she just came out as a lesbian, and she's doing it with the same cheerleading enthusiasm she does in selling shampoo or dancing or dances.

And so I'm fascinated by her.

And I just think she's a win on some weird level because she's got my attention.

I don't, I can't even.

I have absolutely no comment on that.

I know that.

Well, she's in that genre of Britney Spears, but different.

Like, different.

What's her name again?

I'm sorry.

Jojo Suwa.

And if you just

had a last name,

S-I-W-A.

And recently, a rapper attacked her.

This guy named Da Baby.

Da Baby.

When you say attacked, what do you mean?

He's had some line in one of his

songs that attacked her.

It's just fascinating.

I love all this pop stuff.

I'm very interested in the pop stuff.

Fail?

John Corin just did it at the hearings for Merrick Garland, bringing up the steel dossiers again.

I mean, honestly, these people, it's like the, someone said it's like the mixtapes of the right wing.

It's Hillary's emails, Hunter Biden, the Steel dossier.

Like, they got to get a new act.

And if Trump comes back tomorrow and doesn't have some new material, I think we need to move along.

Okay.

Thank you.

What are yours?

So my win is

the news around not only the news that 89%

of people who,

or I don't know, was it a reduction of 89% of transmission once you had the vaccine?

Yes, 89% in Israel, yeah.

So that is incredibly,

that's just wonderful news that further supports the vaccines.

Our numbers are plummeting, too, since people have been getting.

Well, that's my actual win:

distinct of all the well-documented and deserved problem,

warranted

deficiencies in how we've handled the novel coronavirus, we are, as a percentage of the population, vaccinating, rolling out the vaccinations as well or better than every nation in the world except for five.

Better than Canada, better than Japan.

There's just a small number of nations, including Israel and the UAE and a few others, that are doing a better job.

And a lot of it is, A, we have tremendous manufacturing capability.

Pfizer and Modona are producing the vaccines here in the U.S.

You do have to give Operation Warp Speed and the previous administration some credit for committing a billion dollars to these companies.

So they bought a ton of vaccine early.

And then our healthcare workers are frontline workers.

So we are, our win is we are, I don't want to say we're not getting ahead of this thing, but we are vaccinating at a great rate.

Americans are embracing their brothers and sisters and getting their brothers and sisters off this beach of death, if you will.

So I think the vaccine rollout, credit where credit's due,

is really starting to get momentum.

And I think, according to a lot of people, you're going to see

the infrastructure every day, not only, I mean, if you loosely break it down, and it's vaccines and then the distribution system that actually inoculates or vaccinates people, each of those things is getting better every day.

Still, I'm going to stop you.

Still, 500,000 deaths we passed.

I mean, so unnecessary, the amount, when you compare it, this is going to be looked at, studied forever.

Like, who didn't get it and why?

The other countries like us just didn't die at the rates we did.

And so, therefore, either we're a sickly group of people here in the United States, or we're a bunch of assholes.

Well, the answer is yes.

We are.

I mean, the reality is we are overweight, and we are, but

it wasn't our physiology that really hurt us.

It was our arrogance, and anyways, and our incompetence.

But we've spent a lot of time talking about that.

The vaccine rollout in America is, on a relative basis, is actually going really well.

That's my win.

And then my fail is

I think the continued war on the poor, as evidenced or manifested in what's happening in Texas with these utilities that are demand priced, and they sign up people.

And there's instances where it's taken out of your checking account, and there's senior citizens who've seen their electricity bill go to $7,500 for a week.

And what choice do you have?

It's like, well, I could either freeze to death as a 75-year-old retired

cross-card.

And so you've had these seniors and low- and middle-income people literally wiped out.

Little kids.

And essentially,

it's just this, it's the same war.

And that is

we want to disparage government and infrastructure.

Why?

Because if you can't afford heat, but you're rich, you can get heated by the Ritz-Carlton in Cancun.

You can go buy that heat, right?

So, any reduction, a disparagement of government.

That was a Ted Cruz reference for people who haven't been paying attention to that fatuous pop injection.

Thank you for that.

When you cut funding, and granted, I actually think the crisis is a terrible thing to waste.

I think I'm not in favor of giving states and local governments bailouts unless it goes directly to schools, because I do think a lot of states, including California, including New York, have to have some tough conversations with how they spend people, specifically unions.

I do think there just needs to be more efficiency.

But having said that, generally when you disparage and underfund and start this screen against government, and not only that, investments in public infrastructure, that really is just a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich because it's poor people that need a train running every 15 minutes to get to work.

It's poor people that need to know, and middle-income people that need to know, that electricity isn't going to go to $7,500 a week if a crisis hits.

Yeah, you know, they didn't cut the numbers in New York.

They haven't cut into transit, which was interesting.

I don't know if you saw that.

There was threats to cut into transit and then they didn't.

Yep.

Well, that's good news.

A lot across the country, which is interesting.

I do think there's going to be, I know you don't think you should go to state and federal to deal with them.

And a lot of them have done a little better than they thought.

I think a lot of municipalities, including D.C., thought they had a much lesser tax base than they thought.

And now they're getting a little bit.

And then so they sort of had these drastic cut things scenarios.

And I know in D.C., they, I think they have 500 million more than they thought they were going to have.

Some number of people.

That's so fascinating.

It is interesting.

And so that's.

It's happening in New Jersey and Manhattan and New York.

Tax revenue.

No, this is in D.C.

I think it's across several municipalities.

I think it's in California.

There's all kinds of things where it's not quite hitting the bottom line as much as they thought it would.

Maybe over time it certainly will.

Maybe if they don't recover economically.

But one of the things, you know, as I told you when I interviewed someone last week with this idea of COVID learnings, like what do we learn from this?

And I think this is going to be one of the things is

if we really look, this is such an opportunity to look at every facet of society

and understand the failures, why they happened the way they did, what was the cause of them.

I mean, it'll be argued forever and used politically, but rather than doing the reductive political thing is like Trump, you killed us, or

you know, Biden, you saved us, this kind of thing, which they're going to do and that's fine, whatever.

We have to really look at like what actually happened.

I'm excited to see, you know, what people like Raj Chetty come out with, all these economists, like in terms of what's going to, of what it's going to do, and then how it's going to change.

Because things like telecommuting, you can see

there's going to be more of it, right?

There's obviously, and it's been, even though we all hate Zoom, I think we're going to continue to do it.

Telehealth is another area that I think is going to progress really fast.

100%.

And then, but tele school, no.

Has anyone written a book on this, on who the winners and losers are?

Sounds like you should.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, post-corona.

Post-corona.

But I think even more so, study the actual.

Who's that lesbian who's the cheerleader who just came out?

Who's that?

That's what I want to talk about.

It's just, it's so confusing.

I hate when lesbians don't fit in their presupposed genres.

Stereotypes.

I really, it's like, oh, now I have to come up with another genre of lesbian.

I think it's dangerous to make stereotypes.

Do you own a Subaru?

Do you own a Subaru?

I did.

I had one.

I loved girls.

I did.

I did.

I did for years.

I did.

I had a Subaru.

Of course I did.

I had children, but I know, and that is the chosen

of my people.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

They're great colours.

No, I don't believe in stereotypes.

It's just like it's such an interesting world now in a way it didn't used to be.

There's the spereofers.

But wait, wait, just to go back to our regular show.

There's a very lesbian.

There's the, anyway, sorry.

You're both of those things.

So,

so.

Just saying.

And skirting the edge of cancellation.

Here he is.

I find the lesbians are much less harsh on me.

They are.

They don't care.

You know, they're like, yeah, you're funny.

Whatever.

Come to our conference.

Yeah, whatever.

That's right.

We'll beat you up if we need to.

No, it's straight white women that have decided their outrage for everybody around me.

Anyways, and tech bros.

Even the tech bros don't like me lately.

I know what's that.

That's interesting.

It is interesting.

Everybody likes me.

I can confirm that is not true.

Anyways, but what you said before was really interesting.

Do you know what the tax revenue in D.C., New Jersey State, and New York State?

The tax revenue is up.

Up, that's what I said.

Up.

And that was such a shocker because all we hear about is wealthy people moving to Texas and California to take advantage, to realize their capital gain and have lower taxes on it.

And I think it's got to be a function of the stock market.

I think it's got to be the capital gains,

the taxes they're getting from an explosion in the stock market.

What'll be interesting, what'll be interesting, Kara, is what happens in 24 to 36 months when things normalize and the tax base, because so much wealth has left these states, states, what happens then?

That's when you're going to see a fiscal crisis.

It should be interesting because right now, suddenly, I mean, I have this other house that I couldn't sell to be on COVID.

Everybody wants to buy a house now.

Like, it's really interesting.

There's this weird pent-up demand for things, which we'll see where it goes.

We'll see where it goes.

Everyone does want to get out.

You can feel it.

You can feel it.

We are going to have, okay, we're going to have.

We're in the last mile of this.

We have a trillion dollars that has not been spent in stimulus.

We have $500 billion in additional savings from families because they're not going to disney world

or to uh chipotle or wherever you have a trillion and a half dollars waiting on the sidelines you have so much so much emotion people waiting to get out it is going to be the roaring 20s for 24 months it's going to be it's going to be

uh sodom and gomorrah i don't know what what you would call it it's going to be i want to go on a vacation like it's going to be so out of the way what did i do last night looked at what where i could go for christmas like somewhere great and i'm like i'm getting the big big one.

And where does, where does, I got to be honest, I'm doing the same thing.

Where does Kara Swisher want to go that she thinks is somewhere great for Hawaii?

I love Hawaii.

Oh, you love Hawaii.

That's right.

You love Hawaii.

I love Hawaii.

I don't even just, Hawaii speaks to me.

I love Hawaii.

Hawaii.

I'm going to Hawaii.

And I'm getting the big one.

I'm getting the big one.

Hawaii speaks to you.

Does it take you to another place?

I love it there.

I don't know what it is about that.

There's certain places.

Is there somewhere like that for you?

I just, the minute I went there, I felt like I was home.

It sounds crazy.

Vegas strip clubs speak to me on a very emotional level, on a very soulful level.

Scott will be appearing nightly in the big penthouse at the

centers.

I think Italy.

I want to go back to Italy.

Oh, yeah.

Well, watch Stanley Tucci, your doppelganger.

That's right.

I appreciate you say that.

That guy's handsome.

Yeah, he is.

He looks good.

He wears a suit.

Well, everyone looks good in this thing.

It makes you long for better.

Is it European porn where they just show how beautiful a city is?

It's literally here.

That's exactly what it is.

You're like, if you like Euro porn, I've got a show for you.

Oh, we already talked about

Killing Eve.

It's total Europorn.

They take a city and they take fashion in that city and they just put it on display.

Okay, fine.

But this is just pure.

Have some mozzarella.

I'm not sure.

Here's a nice glass.

That's definitely problematic.

Chiante.

Let's go.

All right.

This is such a nice feeling.

Let's go to Italy.

Can we have a pivot event in Italy?

Yeah.

I'm not actually, I'm not dying to spend more time with you, but I would like to get to know Amanda better.

So maybe send her.

You stay home with the Subaru and the kids.

I want to take Amanda and then the new one.

I want to take your little one.

She's a cutie.

She is a cutie.

She's welcome.

She is a cutie.

She's got a lot going on.

I'm very excited that that is a win for me in 2020, 19 and 21.

Anyway, Scott, that's the show.

It's on.

We leave you on a happy note.

Look at that.

How we are.

Here we are trying to bring hope to the world.

That's our job.

We'll be back on Friday for more.

There's a lot going on this week.

We'll be back sort of slagging people as soon as possible.

By the way, speaking of which, we're going to talk on Thursday.

I did an interview with Sasha Baron Cohen yesterday on Monday.

You're kidding me.

No, 90 minutes.

I don't think we'll use all 90 more.

Well, I'm sorry.

Sasha Barron Cohen.

Oh, it's so great.

We're going to have him on our show.

Wait, oh, no, wait.

Let me guess.

You had him on your other podcast.

That guy is my fucking hero.

And you take him on Sway?

He is crazy.

You know what?

He doesn't give many longer.

I'm not talking to you.

He's not coming.

I'm not talking to you.

I will get him now.

I am not talking to you.

No.

That guy is literally my role model.

Well, you're going to love this interview.

He went.

Hey.

I'm going to be sure to tune in.

Jesus Christ.

All right.

Enough of that.

Sasha Baron Cohen.

I've been working on that for years.

I've been working on that for years.

It's a long podcast.

He doesn't want to do these 20-minute ones.

He wanted a long amount of time to talk, and that was an hour.

We'll get him on.

We will get him on an event we're doing, okay?

We're going to do an event, and I'm going to put you on stage with him.

How about that?

He'll do it.

That guy's a total gangster.

He is.

He's fantastic.

He's very funny.

Fearless, creative, socially conscious, yes, ridiculously hot wife.

Not that I've noticed, nor does that have a criteria for being a gangster.

Okay, all right, I'm sorry.

We're gonna talk about Sash Baron Cohen, and you don't have to listen to it with clips and everything.

Sorry, Scott.

I don't know what to say to you.

They all want to come on the sway.

The sway is the sway.

It's what it is.

I will get him.

I get lots of people here.

Don't you worry about it.

Anyway, you're probably going to get that woman who just came out, that cheerleader who just came out of the.

That's who we get.

That's who we get.

Glee.

Glee meets golden girls, meets, I don't know, meets the L-word.

Are you kidding?

We have great people.

Give me a break.

Anyway, go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit your questions.

That's right.

We had Bill Gates.

Oh, no, that was Sway 2.

That was Sway 2.

Okay.

Anyway.

Anyway.

And we have someone talking about cybersecurity.

Well,

it's just fucking Easter here every day.

It's an Easter parade here every day.

Question about Envy.

Envy and fear and loathing.

I'm the other family i'm literally the other family

like every other weekend you swing by and you bring a pair of adi das for me and a bain skateboard i'm the other family i'm literally the other family

i'm not going to tell you who's coming on to sway really soon but it's big there's a lot of big ones i've had it i'm going to read us out today's show today's show producing more with less because one of us is not invested in this podcast but it's still nonetheless turning chicken shit into chicken salad is rebecca sonanas who produced the show any ninja todd engineered this episode thanks Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows.

Make sure you subscribe.

If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

The question isn't whether or not you want to get COVID.

The question is whether you want your loved ones to get COVID.

Get vaccinated.

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This is a wonderful day for America and for the world.

Also, nice bangs, Scott.

Thank you.

Thank you.