The end of the Bezos era, SpaceX for civilians, and a stock prediction

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hi everyone this is pivot from new york magazine and the vox media podcast network i'm kara swisher and i'm scott galloway scott What's going on today?

Do you hear the CEO of Parlor John Matts got fired?

So are you wearing his ears around your neck like some, like like some, some warrior

who's killed people?

You know, I didn't kill him.

I got, I just showed he had bad judgment.

A little bit.

A little bit.

It started the ball rolling.

It started for sure.

I kicked the ball and it moved it down the hill.

That is for sure.

I think he then made a lot of moves afterwards.

First of all, it was a bad judgment.

He really had a lot of bad judgment in that interview and said things on literally the wrong time, like read the room that's being attacked at the Capitol, essentially.

And then I think he continued to do make bad

bad interviews.

He sued Amazon, which he never was going to win, you know, for not hosting parlor.

Antitrust, yeah.

The whole thing, every, every behavior he had afterwards, what he's now saying is because, because he wanted to moderate the platform and Rebecca Mercer, who's an easy target as a villain, and I suspect she's a villain almost all the time, pretty much all the time.

I think that he's using her as the excuse, but I think some of his management techniques were not very smart.

I know nothing about this story because I don't know.

Well, you can't because it's your job, but I have purposefully avoided all news about our former president, about my pillow guy.

I don't, I used to watch Fox occasionally just to kind of understand the viewpoint.

I don't care about follow-up.

And you know what?

I find that I won't say I'm mentally healthy, but I'm less mentally fucked up.

Yeah.

I really think there's a big sigh of relief.

Yes, there is.

And a giant walk outside the last few weeks, just trying to avoid all this shit.

All the crazy.

I don't even want to hear about this congresswoman from Georgia.

I'm just like, okay,

okay, fine.

Let me give you a crazy thing.

We know they're crazy.

They didn't discipline her, and now the Democrats are going to.

They're going to, I mean, they didn't discipline her.

Then again, they didn't kick out Liz Cheney, who for doing her job, which was interesting.

Yeah, that was, it's interesting.

The whole thing is sort of kabuki, and they need to focus on.

So does Parler, but

from your viewpoint, does Parlor have a role is parlor going to be are the backers of parlor going to make money is parlor phenomena no i think it's gone i think it's not up they have to build they've got to build it back up they missed their their big opportunity was after trump got kicked off of twitter and now that's passed you know what i mean like i don't think it's going to people are going to be rushing to it um they've gone to telegram they've already made their you know the crazies have already made their choice and and it's not going to be parlor anymore and so i think it's finished

a lot of people on i don't know if it's the same thing it's a messaging app i'm getting a lot of uh people saying hit me up on Signal.

Signal.

Yeah, Signal or Telegram.

Those are

two encrypted messaging apps.

And one has more, I forget which one, I think it's Signal, has more ability to have groups and things like that.

For the real right-wingers, there's MeWe.

I think it's called MeWe.

Another one's called

I'm blanking.

Anyway, there's a whole bunch of them they can go to.

But it's not as good as a public forum, and it's not as good as Facebook.

And so, you know, that's where they really organized was on Facebook and essentially Parlor and some other places that were just out in the open.

So we'll see.

Anyway, he's gone.

We'll see what his story is, see if he'll throw Rebecca Mercer under the bus, but she's always sort of in the shadows of all these really unpleasant things that have to do with our democracy.

So perhaps he will have some things to say about her that will give us more illumination.

Under acting chair Jessica Rosen-Wurzel, the FCC is expanding the broadband services discount program to cover remote schooling, which is exciting.

It's the new FCC.

Jessica's Jessica's really an interesting

chair, and I hope she gets the job itself.

She was sort of polar opposite to Ajit Pai.

So that's super interesting, what's happening there.

And we'll see what we're going to get from the FCC.

The FCC has been kind of quieter

in the Trump administration and not done as much.

What are you thinking of this week?

So,

you mean the plan to try and give broadband to everybody?

Yeah.

Look, the economists did a study, and

as broadband increases in a nation, it's correlated to GDP growth.

Indeed.

Broadband has become one of those things.

Again, we like to think the government is bad at everything.

No, government is really good at defending our shores.

They're really good at making sure that seniors don't end up homeless.

They're really good at ensuring I should say they're really good most of the time at ensuring we have clean, safe drinking water.

And broadband,

they're great at the essentials and they're great at things that require afford leaning investment.

But not here, they haven't been.

Here they haven't been at all.

Well, but that's what I'm saying.

I think it's the opportunity.

Well, except it's been going on.

I mean, Scott, years ago, Walt and I interviewed the then, I can't even remember who the FCC chairman was at the time.

And we put up a chart right before we interviewed him that showed that the U.S.

was the most expensive broadband

in the world.

And like, I think we were behind Latvia down at like 17 or some number that was really an embarrassment.

Well, we've let, essentially, we've let companies come in that are very deft and have a lot of lobbyists figure out a way to segment the market and create

semi-regulated monopolies, which are a transfer of wealth from our citizens to these companies.

And while big tech are unregulated monopolies, that's even worse.

What I'm basically advocating is that if you were to, South Korea, basically a strategy nationally for their nation in terms of competitive advantage relative to their peer group is that I decided, I think, 30 years ago, they were going to flood the the nation in bandwidth and a government supported initiative.

What I'm saying here is just like,

I love infrastructure.

I would love to see nothing more.

Would you like to lead infrastructure week for Pete Budijech, Bako?

You know what?

It was just really fascinating.

If you think about our airways, how much infrastructure, the invisible infrastructure of our airways and how many, and how air traffic control turns airspace into this unbelievable asset for all of us.

And it was the same thing is true of broadband, but I find it just so disheartening to think that, okay, we spent $5 trillion to mostly keep the rich rich with these bailouts, and we could have done something, we could have had literally high-speed rail across the entire nation three times over.

We could have done something like this and ensured that every household in America had lightning fast broadband.

Anyway,

it's like dropped up is what has gone.

This is something I've talked about for years and years and years.

It's literally like saying to people during the time we put telephones everywhere, which was critically important.

Hey, everybody, here's a can and a string.

Good luck.

Like, we would never have done this.

These are the kind of things.

And especially now with this remote schooling, like it should be

priority number one for everybody, by the way.

Remote schooling, for the ability to reach schools.

It's just ridiculous.

It's your ability to learn.

It's your ability to step on news.

It's your ability to form,

even now, relationships.

It's your ability to communicate with your, I mean, this is, show me a family that has broadband,

low broadband that's interrupted because of economic strain or for whatever reasons.

And I'm going to show you a family that starts, the kids start to fall behind.

Yep.

So this is, I mean, it's, this is a great moment.

Let's say, all right, let's,

we, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.

We have an opportunity to look at this and say, all right, what do we leave behind?

Do we leave behind emissions?

Do we leave behind forcing

workers to commute if they can be home two or three days?

You know, what do we leave behind?

And one of the things we could leave behind is the notion that the private sector

is the best way to solve every problem.

This should be, if I read one more story of poor kids doing their homework from Taco Bell, I'm going to just really lose my mind.

We're going to have Jessica Rosenworcel on the show.

That's my new decision.

Well, remind me of those pictures of Africa.

I'm making an executive decision here.

Go ahead.

Have you seen these pictures of Africa?

Paul Romer, a colleague at Stern and a Nobel Prize winner who talks about growth,

his Nobel Prize was around growth.

And he had this really moving photo that he always uses of kids studying under a parking lot light.

Yep, I've seen that picture.

Yeah.

And that's where we're headed.

Ridiculous.

That's where we're going.

We are going to have Jessica Rosenhorsel here, and she's going to tell us about this.

And by the way, it shouldn't be a discount program.

It should be free.

Thank you very much.

That's my platform.

That's what I'm running on.

Good ROI.

So let's get to the big story.

Speaking of people who are taking charge of rather big places and someone who could probably provide us with bandwidth easily, like tomorrow, this is a big story.

Anda Monira, Jeff Bezos, is stepping down as CEO of Amazon.

He's going to stay executive chairman.

In Amazon's quarterly earnings call this week, Bezos announced that 27 years after founding Amazon, he'd be stepping aside as CEO and moving on to the executive chairman role, which is a very active role.

Let's be clear, he's not going anywhere.

Andy Jassy will be the new CEO of Amazon.

He previously was head of AWS, Amazon's cloud, very successful cloud computing business, which represents 62% of its profits and 12% of its business.

So very successful group over there that Andy runs.

The transition will officially take place in the third quarter of this year, which starts in July.

So Andy Jassy, here he is.

Now, we're going to get to the other things that happened at Amazon.

Meanwhile, the same day, the Federal Trade Commission, they sort of knocked this story off the blocks,

announced that sanctions against Amazon will pay $61.7 million.

million dollars to settle allegations that the company cheated gig drivers out of tip money.

This is a story that happens all over the delivery space.

It's not new to Amazon.

Door dash.

Yeah, do it.

All the FT.

What is wrong with them?

In 2015, Amazon advertised a program that called Flex that would pay drivers up to $25 an hour to make deliveries that they could receive 100% of any tips.

But in late 2016, Amazon secretly reduced its own contribution to drivers' pay, according to the FCT.

Anyway, they paid the money.

It's not a huge amount of money, but it's not nice.

It's not nice.

In any case, Andy Jasset was not responsible for that.

But he's going to now be

the CEO.

I know him quite well.

He's an interesting character.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: So before we even get to that, though, I do think it warrants a moment of recognition that Jeff Bezos, his career.

Look,

no one man in history has taken a company from zero to $1.7 trillion.

No one person

has established a recurring revenue relationship with 82%

of households.

No one person has had a company hire a half a million people in one year.

No one person has revolutionized e-commerce, revolutionized cloud, revolutionized voice.

This is, as he stands here today, and there is a dignity and discipline to leave in the stage while people are clapping.

He goes out or he leaves the CO role as

the bluest flame thinker in the history of business.

And also, I have been very critical.

I don't think they can equip themselves well, gamifying the Commonwealth, some of the things you just read about.

But the reality is, you know, I've owned stock in Amazon since 2007.

They're the largest recruiter of young men and women out of my class.

It's given them an enormous,

a wonderful start to building economic security.

You know, you just got to recognize what he has done.

It is just staggering what he has accomplished.

Now, now, the most exciting thing, the most exciting thing, and there's an analogy here or a metaphor or a correlation, whatever it is, a reference to Bill Gates.

Bill Gates, when he retired, was not that well liked.

People saw him as someone who really threw around his elbows in business.

Up until the point he retired, he was not very philanthropic.

The last 25 years for Jeff Bezos have been meaningful for our society, but the next 25 years could be profound.

If he were to put those resources and that brain to work on some really big problems, you know, he could have an incredibly profound impact over the next quarter century.

If only someone actually knew him back then in the early days and knows Andy Jassy well and could comment on it.

I wonder who that person is.

Me.

So please comment.

Okay.

I like your thoughts.

You know, he has had a very, you know, he was a very interesting guy.

He again started off later in his life.

He was not young.

It was very pleasant to talk to him because he wasn't a 12-year-old when I was covering early Amazon.

Very enthusiastic, super friendly to the press until he wasn't.

And someone who really did have a vision that was very clear, a very data-driven vision and enthusiasm for what what he was doing.

And a tough, tough guy.

I mean, a lot of people think of him as sort of this laughing, you know, guffaw guy, but he's really a tough customer.

And in terms of we've had a lot of tangles over the years

causing us not to talk for a while over something that he thought he was right on and was very clear.

And so he's a really interesting character.

But I definitely think his ideas someone was arguing with me on Twitter the other day whether he was a a visionary, because I said in a column I wrote in the Times that he was.

You know, I compared him to positively with Jobs and Musk.

And I said, except he's sort of meaner, you know what I mean, or more obstreperous and more aggressive than those two alpha dogs.

And

some was like, no, he's not.

He's not.

I was like, he's 100% visionary.

What he did and continued to be innovative at Amazon compared to any other CEO, Mark Zuckerberg borrows things.

Gates borrows things.

You know what I mean?

It's the boring stuff that was so impressive here.

He did a couple of things.

He decided fulfillment used to be something William Sonoma was a cost center, and it took them two weeks to get your Calphalon when you ordered it online.

And he said, if we can get people things, if we can move people to things and decrease the delta in the reward of immediacy, it's going to revolutionize retail.

And it's super boring.

And he spent hundreds of billions of dollars on it.

No one wanted to spend hundreds of millions on it, but that was just a unique way to look at things.

And the other thing that people don't talk enough about, that's just such the jiu-jitsu move of the ages, he took their biggest cost centers, fulfillment,

processing power, bandwidth.

He took their biggest cost centers and turned them into enormous profit centers in the form of businesses they sold to other businesses.

No one's been able to look at their expense line and say, okay, we're going to take our biggest expenses and figure out how to make them not only lower and smarter, but how to start selling them to other places.

And by the way, the most valuable company in the world isn't Amazon.

It's AWS.

And with the appointment of Jassy,

basically, Amazon is now a cloud company.

One of the things I've been thinking through, Second Order Effects, I thought they would spin AWS.

Yeah.

Because Jassy, any guy like Jassy wakes up in the morning and looks in the mirror and says, hello, Mr.

No, he does not.

You're wrong.

Once again, because you don't actually know him.

Do you know Man?

Do I know Andy Jassy and you don't?

I've interviewed him a lot.

Do you think he thought, I just want to be number two the rest of my life?

No, I don't think so.

I think he really, he's a very different kind of character.

He's much more like Satcha Nadella.

He's a very good leader.

He was Jeff's technical chief of staff.

I remember when he got there, actually,

at Amazon.

He was kicking out of Harvard Business School.

And actually, what was really astonishing is Jeff in 2003 let him do this skunk works, which became AWS, you know, just go off and do it.

And they opened it in, I think, 2006.

And so I think he's quite entrepreneurial.

He's a very entrepreneurial guy.

And he also likes being Jeff Bezos' number two.

He does.

He's like Jeff in a lot of ways.

Nicer, very much nicer in a lot of ways.

Very,

he's different in

personality in some ways.

But but

he loved having this.

And when I interviewed him last year, if you remember at Code, he was like, you disagree with you.

I thought he was telling the truth, that he would do it if the government made him, but he doesn't see anything.

He's going to spin it.

He's the spin of AWS.

Yes.

He said he'd do it if he was forced to,

and the government should tell him.

Same thing around facial recognition.

If they want this, he's not going to be the moral arbiter.

If they want it regulated, they should regulate it.

But he did not want to spin it off.

I've asked him dozens and dozens of times over the years.

Well,

so the likelihood that it happens now just went down because now Andy is no longer the king of the north.

He sits on the iron throne of Westeros.

And all of a sudden, he's going to want to keep the companies together.

And I did

watch that.

CNN yesterday and the FT, like, why now?

Why did he step down?

And I'm like, wouldn't you?

Yeah.

He wants to, Jeff Bezos has rung every bell.

He wants to spend 2021.

He wants to spend more time at the Cannes Film Festival and the Oscars and not in a Senate and not in a House subcommittee meeting.

He didn't want to come back to Amazon.

He had come back because the pandemic, it's quarters signaled the pandemic's over.

You know what I mean?

Because he didn't have to be a good person.

It's an interesting way to look at it.

Yeah.

He had to come back to do that.

And of course, other people retired.

Jeff Wilkie, who is the other contender for this job, who I never thought was going to get it.

I always thought it was Andy,

was

retired earlier.

And so I think he was like, Jeff does not want to spend one minute of the day doing anything Jeff Bezos doesn't want to do.

And he didn't like any of the political groups.

You know, we talked about broadband being correlated to GDP growth.

Wealth is correlated to no.

Wealth is the ability to say no.

And there's a lot of things in his life as the CEO of a company that, quite frankly, is a monopoly that people feel has grown too powerful that he can't say no to.

When he gets called and hauled in front of his House subcommittee

and they start asking questions and he has to think very thought, he has to spend probably days with lawyers prepping for this thing and then have Jim Jordan ask him questions Representative Jordan or

you know so not being CEO it reattaches him to his ability being the wealthiest man in the world means he is the king or queen of no and and he reattaches to that he can also do whatever he wants Andy does take the temperature down Jeff is is a lightning rod for people you know he's he's a character he's yeah I think Andy he'll be like Tim Cook like you know how Tim didn't get that many many questions?

Andy's the same way.

He sort of absorbs, like, he's not.

He seems very likable.

He seems like

I describe him as Midwestern, and I have no idea where he's from.

No, he's from Scarsdale.

There you go.

He looks like he's

like he's from Wisconsin.

You know, he grew up.

He's like a, you know, upper middle class kid from Scarsdale.

But, but his,

it'll be interesting because he'll absorb that.

He'll be able, and I, you know, I think Jeff will actually take an executive chair and will be sort of the ambassador for that because because people always want to meet him and stuff.

And I think he's a lot of people in the Biden administration said they've started to really, Amazon started to reach out to see how they can help.

They didn't want to help the Trump administration.

And of course, the Trump administration didn't want to be helped by Jeff Bezos.

And so that's that weird obsession that

Trump had with Bezos is gone.

And so Amazon's trying to make their way into doing helpful things with their logistics around the vaccine.

And I've just heard that from various Biden people.

And so that should be interesting.

Then they have to do that because Andy faces a lot of stuff around not just this Federal Trade Commission thing, which was many years ago and shitty, what they did, but also antitrust issues, issues around the unions.

Amazon's been extraordinarily tough on union organization, stuff around workers

and the marketplace issue.

So there's a lot that he's going to have to deal with from a regulatory point of view.

So I'll be interested in who they, I don't even know who they have in Washington, but what they do here.

I suspect Jeff will be here more.

They'll bring him out for the star power that he has always had.

And I think he'll be a little more active than in politics than you realize.

And he has this big house here in Washington.

So he may do the charm offensive while Andy deals with it, a lot of it.

But it'll be interesting who they get to run all the retail stuff.

They've got a huge bench all over the place at this company.

Not many people leave, which is the other issue is diversity.

This is not.

These people have been in these jobs.

Andy started when he was a kid.

All the executives started when they were kids.

Okay, so

this is a huge point.

And it's another one of the kind of boring PSA or cholesterol tests that indicates the kind of underlying health of the organization.

I read that the turnover at Snap and Twitter among senior management is around 25 or 30 percent a year.

One in three leave.

Yeah.

At Amazon, it's 2%.

None.

So they have done something where everyone, these are some of the most.

It's culti.

Well, it's not, okay, but that's looking at as the glass half empty.

Yeah.

Okay, so the word culture comes from.

They like working.

People with tremendous opportunities.

I mean, these are people, obviously very talented people that a lot of companies, a lot of would, they receive a lot of calls from headhunters and they all say, you know what?

Looking at the people I work with, look at the opportunities, looking at the economic and psychic rewards, I'm going to stay at Amazon.

I mean, that just says something about the company.

Andy was in line for the Uber job.

You know, he was thinking about his options.

And I remember joking with him when I saw him.

So he's like, I was like, you missed that bullet.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, seriously.

He was in line for a lot of jobs.

He was always, he really liked running AWS.

I'm going to, he really didn't want to spin it off and be his own CEO.

So now he just waited.

He's sort of like Iger sort of waited in the wings for the big job.

You know, how every, how, how Eisner just drummed everybody else out of there.

He was Steve Young with Joe waiting for Joe Montana to retire.

Yeah, just like that kind of thing.

I think it'll be an interesting.

Sports analogy from the dog.

First and last.

It's an interesting thing of how he wants to do it and how he wants to differentiate himself.

I hope he does.

I hope he has like a Tim Cook moment because Tim has certainly differentiated himself from jobs.

Satcha's, and I'm going to leave the bomber's ears out because we're just going to ignore them at Microsoft.

Because I think that was just an extension of

Gates and not very successful.

You know what?

A lot of people think Bomber didn't get the credit he deserved.

Satcha kind of came in and built.

So

during Bomber,

they doubled revenue and they quadrupled profits.

Yeah, he missed some turns.

He missed some turns.

Well, phones, mobile, social, search.

He missed kind of the biggest movements in tech.

Other than that, Kara,

he was so weird.

I told you that story.

We were at the dancer.

Good dancer.

That's true.

I like Steve Bomber now.

I didn't before he hated me for the longest time.

But anyway.

That's impossible to imagine.

That's impossible to imagine, Kara.

He was seeing I had a Tetsi.

But now we're like, he's like, he's doing all this cool stuff with his team and some political data stuff.

I think he's become rather, I wouldn't say lovable.

Everybody wants to be Mark Cuban.

Everyone wants to be like the

I just have a podcast with him today, which he made less than.

He's all-owning billionaire, Mark Cuban.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You told the GameStop or told the Wall Street Bets guys to hold the line.

By the way, just

listen to me.

You're not that you're a data.

When someone tells you to hold the line, that means you're about to get a spear in the chest.

You and Mark Cuban have a lot in common.

I literally have him talking about free the nipple.

There's a whole section of his motto, free the nipple, and how to fix content moderation.

I would think you and he would get along rather well.

I've met him at South by South.

I like him a lot.

I know.

Well, you should listen to it because there's a whole Scott Galloway moment where I have to do it.

He's got a really nice TikTok account with his daughter.

I think he puts himself out there.

I like it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had to shut him down.

You just shouldn't tell young men to hold the line.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When he's already rich and they're not anyways.

In any case, Andy will be interesting.

So you and I have both suggested this move for Mark Zuckerberg.

I wanted Mark to step down.

You wanted Mark to end and like become executive chairman.

I put someone like Brad Smith from Microsoft in place, someone who's believable as someone who's not going to screw everyone and we'll try to do something.

What do you think?

Do you think

Mark is now thinking, hmm, I don't want to go to Congress anymore and stare into the Kleeg lights like I'm a deer kind of thing?

What do you think?

I don't think.

I think Mark is so, and generally speaking, I think the people in big tech are generally speaking good people who incrementally get tempted and get so sick of getting talked to and scolded all the time that they get on their heels and they don't, they have trouble seeing their company.

Look, when it's raining money,

it blurs your vision.

But I, but I don't want to say I forgive them.

I think, generally speaking, they're good people, except I think Mark Zuckerberg is a strange person, and I think he demonstrates the behavior of a sociopath.

And that's a that's I'm the victim, total, totally detached from the harm,

constant,

constant returning everything to this.

Well,

an ability to lie.

I think he's shown a tremendous ability to say things that just aren't.

So he is not leaving, you're saying.

He is sticking.

Let me put it.

He's holding, as they say.

He is an exception.

I can sort of relate to these other guys, just

given their age and everything.

I have no idea what is running through that guy's brain.

I have no idea.

What do you think?

I couldn't predict anything that Mark Zuckerberg.

I think both he and Cheryl are going to move along, I think.

both of them.

And you think they'll bring in someone from the outside to be COVID?

That would be the shareholder-driven thing to do, to hit the reset button.

Because Cheryl's not going to take over for him.

That's not going to happen

now because they need to clear the whole thing out.

And I think it's a perfect jet.

The Bezos move gives them a little more permission to do this.

I think that they will bring in a significantly

not better, but more, someone with a better reputation, CEO.

And

that's where they're going to go.

I think that's what's going to happen.

I think that's what's going to happen.

I think personally, I think the individual, and he's probably just having a great time, but I really think there's the lesson here is that you want to leave a party 10 minutes early versus 10 minutes late.

And if you're an NFL player, you can't do that because an NFL player.

You only have a certain time, right?

An NFL player is making $5 to $8 million a year, I think, is the average salary.

And once they leave, it's very difficult to make that kind of money.

So you sort of play it out until you get cut.

But these guys have made so much money and accomplished so much.

I think there's a real,

there's just, there's, you want to leave the party 10 minutes early.

I think Tim Cook, if I were Tim Cook, what does he have left to accomplish?

Oh, no, he's staying.

He's staying.

I don't think he's going anywhere.

I think he's, this is the job he's always wanted.

I think he'll play it out for another 10 years.

Wow.

And with Mark,

the issue with, yeah, he does.

I think Mark is young.

That's the issue.

Like, what is he, what does he look, even as rich as you are, and I know you and I would be perfectly fine with all the money and we'd fly all over and do crazy things.

But this guy doesn't have anywhere else to go.

Like, he likes what he does, too.

And so he's young.

And what does the rest of his life look like if he leaves Facebook?

Yeah, but

that's why, and I've said this before, he's the most dangerous person in the world.

And we said Trump will be with us for, you know, the immunities kicked in and he was voted out of office.

Biology will take care of Putin.

But we have someone who controls the content of what one-third one-third of the globe absorbs is and is comfortable giving them algorithms of amplification that divide their society.

And he could be with us for another 50 years because of a dual-class shareholder system.

I would suggest he takes the exit pod that has been offered him by this Jeff Bezos move.

That's what I say.

I would suggest he get in the exit pod and fly off and do something important for the world.

That's what I would say.

And then like lecture us about whatever billionaire idea he has and put some money to it.

Or be like Mackenzie Scott, Jeff's ex-wife, who just gives away money.

She's a gangster.

I love her.

She's a gangster.

She just said, the nation is hurting.

I'm not going to.

Here's some money.

No strings.

I talked to two.

I'm trying to get her to come on the podcast.

I know her.

I knew her.

I used to know her well.

But I haven't talked to her in a long time.

And everyone I talked to is like,

we don't know how to reach them.

They just handed us the check and said, good luck.

They didn't have any strings.

She didn't want to have any press conferences.

She didn't want to do, they don't even know who to call.

They're like, we got to call.

The check came.

We cashed it.

That was the whole encounter, essentially.

Well, I told you my story.

I love it.

I told you my story about Mackenzie Scott, right?

I was going to be a millionaire.

I was a DLD talking about Bezos.

And a woman comes up to me and says, I think I can help you be more effective.

And I'm like, well, that's passive aggressive.

Okay.

And

I said, sure.

And she said, you don't, you need to give Mackenzie Scott more responsibility for the role she played early on at Amazon.

And I said, that's interesting.

Tell me more about it.

And we started talking, really intelligent, interesting woman.

And I'm like, what's your background?

I was CTO of the U.S.

government.

I'm like, were you married to Kara Swish?

Oh, yes.

That was your ex-wife.

And we sat there and laughed.

And then we took a picture and said, I'm like, it just makes sense that someone that used to used to

mate who was your life partner would show up and give me shit.

Oh, she's a nice lady.

Listen, Mackenzie does deserve a lot more credit.

I say that all the time.

I wrote a whole column.

That would track me down.

You don't care for that.

It tracks me down every day.

We have children.

Anyway, we're going to go to the next one.

It's a million times a million.

All right, Scott, let's go to Chris.

Cheers in your words very quickly.

When we come back, Mark, take the exit pod.

When we get back, we'll talk about Bezos' nemesis, Elon Musk, and the happenings with Tesla and SpaceX.

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Okay, Scott, we're back now.

Speaking of visionary founders, sort of the opposite.

Jeff is his opposite.

He's also, Jeff is going to do a lot of space stuff.

He's going to move on to Blue Origin and build that city in the sky, etc.

Let's do a check-in on a few Elon Musk related stories.

You know, he's just, he's removed himself from Twitter for a little while, I guess.

I heard he's back.

Is he back?

I I heard he took a whole 48 hours off of Twitter now.

He's like you.

He's like you, like a lot of people.

Being bad at Twitter?

No, he's much better.

No, just like can't get, can't, can't quit it.

Anyway, SpaceX, Elon Musk, SpaceX is planning his first all-civilian crew to space at the end of the year.

Big risk for him.

He's talked about this for you.

He said that this is an important milestone towards enabling access to space for everyone, adding that's part of SpaceX's broader goal to bring the cost down over time and make space accessible for all.

As you know, he wants us to be a multi-planetary group of people here on the planet.

On the other hand, this week, a test flight of SpaceX's Starship, which is designed to fly to Mars in the future, crashed.

But that's okay.

SpaceX is an incredible success, I think, in many ways.

It doesn't hurt.

Tesla recalls.

This was one, again, a lot of companies have, let me just say, a lot of companies have recalls, a lot of car companies.

This week, Tesla recalled some of its cars, 130,000 vehicles.

These cars had an issue with the touchscreen computer chips, and they can't fix it in the way they do, which is over the air.

And the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration considers it a safety issue because drivers lose the display for the camera's backup camera.

It's not the most serious problem, but it's a problem.

He appeared, Musk appeared on Monroe Live podcast and even agree that it might be a good time to buy a Model S as they ramp up the design.

Took a 14-minute second break from Twitter.

It's really interesting, you know.

And of course,

he was very involved in the GameStop run-up.

It was GameSton's.

So, what do you think?

What do you think?

Well, anything,

anything.

He's also the richest man in the world, unless Bezos is.

They keep trading that slot.

Yeah, that's incredible.

Elon Musk has added the GDP of Hungary to his personal net worth

since the pandemic broke out.

And look,

and I'm scared to say this because I was so wrong around Tesla, but I think there's a bubble inflating around what I'll call just space.

And that is, it's exciting, but when you look at the different technologies where the hype was ahead of the reality, you think about 3D printing or you think about wearables.

I think that space is, I think it's a dangerous and expensive domain.

And it's super exciting.

SpaceX of all of them, Boeing has tried to put people into space or have launch capabilities.

SpaceX

is executing like no one's business.

I mean, they have their technology.

They got people to the International Space Station faster than anybody else.

It's an inspiring company.

Blue Origin will be interesting.

I think space travel might be one of those things that the government needs to be involved in because I don't know if, at least in the short term, it's commercially viable.

It is so expensive and so dangerous, quite frankly.

So we'll see.

I think it's great.

I think it's great.

I think Bezos will be focused a lot on it.

A point I made around these two people is that what's really fascinating is the two richest people in the world, in this world, in history of the world, want to get off the planet.

They consider it important that we get off the planet in some fashion.

And both are worried about these existential crises.

I don't think they're going.

I don't think that's it.

I think they want to be.

No, I think Elon, that's how he's going to go.

We'll never see him again.

I think he's going to get on.

I don't know about Bezos, but I think Elon's getting on

to Mars.

He's going to try to go to Mars.

Do you know what life on Mars?

Distinctive movies with Mars.

Distinctive movies with Matt Damon.

Do you know what it's like on Mars?

I know, but Elon wants to be king of Mars.

It makes the top of Everest seem like the Caribbean.

I'm telling you, he wants to do it.

I do not disbelieve him when he says it.

I have to say.

He says a lot of crazy stuff, and I don't think he's.

He's way too smart to do that.

I don't know.

I think he's going to be.

He would like to.

Let me just say he would like to.

He's going to be like Mars, St.

Bart's, SoCal.

I'll go with St.

Barts.

That's not the kind of person he is.

I'll go with St.

Bart's.

No.

That's you, Scott.

You don't know.

100%.

That's you.

I think it'll be interesting to see what happens with

Tesla and others moving forward, but I think his heart is in SpaceX.

And

he is really interested in it.

It's an incredible company, by the way, in the private markets.

It's been increasing its valuation like 60% a year.

Yeah, they're

going to be able to do that.

And they move into Defense Department.

They've been speaking of working with the government.

They've been moved, they grabbed that Defense Department contract, which they had never moved into that gang of like

speaking of real crooks.

But the winner there is NASA and the Defense Department because what they're doing, they're taking advantage of the cheap capital being afforded by the public markets' excitement around space, and they're saying, okay, you build our capsule.

Yeah.

So so i it it there's a very good there's a wonderful outcome of all the the excitement around space and that is our our government agencies are getting access to that cheap capital indirectly yeah it should be an interesting i think it i think it's exciting i don't know about off twitter and his game his game something he just likes to wade into this stuff and be the gold yeah it was one word but it sent the stock screaming i think about

super sound he loves jetting up all his base and stuff like that.

But you know, there's something, there's something here

to, it goes back.

I've obviously been thinking a lot about this, but you know that Professor Chipolo's quadrants where you have one access that is good for society, one that is good for yourself.

Intelligent people do good things for society that are good for themselves.

Stupid people do things that are bad for themselves and bad for society.

And then they call them the helpless or artists, people who do good things for society

but it's bad for them.

And then there's the bandits, people who do bad things for society but good things for themselves.

You might say, okay, Mark Zuckerberg is a bandit.

You could say Andy Jassy, if you wanted to be kind, or Tim Cook, are the intelligent, good for the world, good for themselves.

People would describe the mob that overran the Capitol as the stupid, bad for themselves, and bad for society.

And I feel like a lot of these billionaires who have been, and some congresspeople, quite frankly, ranging from AOC and Ted Cruz, who have been posing for the millennial cameras and saying that this movement is wonderful around the

Wall Street bets movement, and maybe it's a new way to value stocks.

I generally don't think they believe that.

I think that we're going to look back and say, should you have been egging them on and telling them,

saying things publicly?

Because I think

you can't look into their heart, but these are very intelligent people that understand capital formation.

And I think you got to think, okay,

do you really think that this is a movement and that what they're doing is ultimately going to be good for them?

I don't think they think, Scott.

I think you give them enormous amounts of credit.

I think they just like the reaction.

They like the applause.

They like, you know, they're all trying to grab the millennial vote.

Why would they?

I think they aren't.

I think they just, a lot of these people are

intuitive, like reactive people.

All of the people you mentioned all are, do not think as much as they should, given their ready-fire aim.

Yep, exactly.

All of them, they have that in common.

I hate to say they're like Ted Cruz and I don't think a Ted Cruz and the AOC are alike.

I think she's like run the circles around him in so many ways.

But I think it's interesting.

But we have to move on.

We have to move on.

We have to move on.

We're going to take a listener mail.

Anyway, Elon will be fine.

Him and Jeff will do the battle for the skies and all of us will benefit, hopefully, in some way, unless they rain down.

Would you, well, let me ask you this.

Would you pay a quarter of a million?

Okay, not even a quarter of a million.

Would you pay 10 grand to go into space?

Would you go into space?

I have no interest in it.

100%.

No, I'm with you.

Let's not go to space together.

Never in a million years.

But I didn't bungee jump when everyone else was doing it.

Anyway, moving on, let's take a listener mail question you got you got i can't believe i'm gonna be your mailman you got mail

hi guys really big fan of yourself cara and of course um you too scott my question is around facebook uh full disclosure i have been working at facebook two and a half years it's the first job coming up university for me um they've been great employers but because i also love tech and i love listening to you i speak um and other thought leaders in this field i've noticed there's been you know a lot of

negative feedback on the brand overall since I've joined even.

And I was just kind of wondering: do you guys have any positive sort of sentiment towards Facebook?

Do you think we still have a role to play in the world?

If not, why?

I'd love to hear it.

Thank you.

Oh, Sahil.

He's a really big fan of mine, and you too, Scott.

That's my favorite part of this entire thing.

Oh, and you.

You.

Okay, by the way, I just want to point out that Representative Khanna goes on to Twitter and says, it was great being on Pivot with the inimitable, incredibly thoughtful

Chris Wisher.

And then, you know, he said, and Scott, too.

And Scott, too.

That's our new thing.

And

thanks for the big wet kiss there, Representative.

It was literally like his press agent said,

you have to mention that guy, too.

You have to mention that guy.

You don't actually kill CEOs like I do.

That's why.

He is literally like

a fucker off, Representative.

This is just a a regular guy who feels the same way, Scott.

This is how it's going to go for you.

Listen to me.

I think that's a Scottish accent.

Hello.

No, I don't think Sahil is not.

It's not.

No, no.

Anyway, I'm not even going to go into it with you.

That's why they say

you're very unloving to me today.

You are being hogged.

You are late.

You are late.

And I have things to do.

Let's get going.

It's like whenever, anyways.

There's not enough hugs in the world.

Speaking of hugs in the world, no, I don't have anything.

I'm not investing in our relationship.

I will try.

I will try.

Listen, I don't care.

Sahil, can you think of something positive about Facebook, Scott?

I like Instagram sometimes.

It's not just about forgiving me.

It's about forgiving yourself.

Let's talk about Facebook.

Instagram is fun sometimes, and I like the ads.

I don't know what to say, Sahil.

Okay, I had two thoughts hearing that question.

The first was, did he have to clear this through the 800-person information bureau that is Facebook to ask this question?

No.

And they're like, is there a way you could make Cheryl seem more likable when you ask the question?

Anyways,

look, Facebook,

let's be honest, I think Facebook is a net

of all the big tech.

Yeah.

Most of them are net good for society.

The problem is with the word net, that we think, well, if they're a net good, let's leave them alone.

No, we should regulate them.

Google is a net good.

Amazon's a net good.

Apple's a net good.

We just need to go in and take away a lot of the external is the bad.

I think Facebook is unique in that is, I believe, on balance in aggregate is a net negative for the world.

That is a good way of putting it, Scott.

And but that's not to mean there isn't tremendous value and opportunity that couldn't be unlocked if

quite frankly they had an entirely different company or different leadership.

What would they do?

How could they be good?

Because I think the business plan,

engagement and enrichment are the thing that is most important there.

I think it's hard to figure out a different way to do it.

And

just things pop up.

Even the best intentions, you get this crap.

And they don't always have to be able to do that.

I think you've bought into the narrative that, oh,

they're trapped.

They're forced to be evil people.

No, they're not.

These algorithms,

these algorithms of amplification.

They can change it.

They can change it.

They could move to subscription.

They could take WhatsApp independent and have it be the new collaborative tool.

WhatsApp should have been

basically

Teams and Slack and TikTok, I don't think, would have gotten any oxygen had WhatsApp been an independent company.

I think you would have seen

a lot more innovation from WhatsApp if you kept the leadership there and kept it in the middle.

I am wrong.

You are correct.

Look, there's enormous, it's like at Star Wars I see good in you I see the light Facebook we see the light in you you've got to get you've got to get

Cersei and Daenerys off the fucking iron throne you've got to get insulting women again as usual they weren't the worst characters were they Cersei Cersei

poignant she was poignant powerful powerful powerful female leadership role on TV she was I think she was a great role a great role model she was very good in any case there is things You're right.

Facebook could do a lot of things.

I recently did an interview with Kevin Roos about this, who has been a great Facebook critic, also in a lot of ways, very

damning of Facebook.

Two things.

One is they can change the algorithm anytime and it gets better, just like knocking President Trump off

Twitter.

Second thing is, and they can do it, and they've done it.

They've done it and they've changed it back and it shows positive things.

And the other one that Alex

Damos, who we've had on the on the podcast many times, the thing that he said is that they have all these people they hire about civic engagement and better community, and then they let the growth team take over no matter what.

Why hire them at all if they're going to let the growth team make decisions?

Would Alex Damos be an interesting CEO?

No.

No.

He strikes me as very likable and thoughtful.

He is.

His project, but I think he made the good point.

It's like they have those people there.

They just ignore them.

And you know that in any, you know about those organizations where they bring in a person who's supposed to make things better and give them no power.

What's all the diversity that people, like stuff like that?

Captics.

They're brought up for optics.

Yeah, but give them no power.

And Facebook brings in Ken Chenel under their board.

And Ken Chenel's like, no, I'm not going to be involved in this if you're not going to listen to me.

Yep, exactly.

So, so.

I want to make the world a better place.

And if you're not going to let me leave it.

We're going to finish this up.

What thing, what would you advise young employees of Facebook to interact?

How would you advise them to interact by leaving?

It's easy to be generous and righteous with other people's livings.

I think people who work at Facebook,

it's an incredible opportunity for them.

Their first obligation is to develop economic security for them and their families.

I have no beef with people who work at Facebook, but I think a lot of them are coming to their own conclusion that time after time, there always seems to be an excuse for not doing the right thing.

And it's not a collective decision.

It's a decision

made by Mark Zuckerberg.

There's a reason why the majority of his senior leadership other than Cheryl kind of drop like flies.

And I think a lot of them just stay too.

They don't.

A lot of those people stay too.

Whenever they acquire a company, it seems like the founders end up leaving.

Yes, the founders do.

The old employees are still there around him.

Well, they have options that are probably, it's probably hard to leave at this point.

Look, I don't,

everyone has to make a conscious decision around where they work.

The people that worked at Exxon were good people.

The people who worked at Ultra were good people.

But you are working.

There's just no getting around it.

You're working for a company.

Social media in itself

is addictive.

It's like nicotine.

Pinterest is addictive.

Snap is addictive.

But the shit that gives you cancer is these algorithms of amplification and the ad model.

And Facebook is giving our society cancer.

So you work for a CEO of the US.

Unfortunately, the stock is so high.

It's really like

the minute another CEO comes in and starts throttling this back, they're going to get attacked.

So that's the issue.

They've got to have Mark do it.

Mark has to say, you know what?

I run this place.

I don't really care.

That's what's so upsetting is that he has the power

to put stakeholders over shareholders because it's a dual class.

Let's go back to dual class shareholder companies, which are a violation of governance.

It said, it's not one person, one vote.

It's everything matters.

It's Kremlin governance.

Everything matters until there's something I don't like and I get to decide.

So it's not real governance.

It's total.

And by the way, the Ford family does it with 6% of the company.

They get to control it.

The Sulzbergers get to control the New York Times with 15% of the company.

It was originally the initial, the initial justification for why corporate governance should be Kremlin-like governance is that media is so important, so important that we shouldn't be subject to the vagaries and short-term needs of people who might come in and say, I don't like the way you're talking about

war in Iraq.

I'm going to take you over and I'm going to influence you.

We were supposed to be, it was supposed to be, they pitched it as a protection for a net good for society.

And guess what?

It's backfired.

It's now a net bad.

He could say these amplifications, these algorithms of amplification are bad.

We need to dramatically change our business model.

And by the way, it's going to cost a shit ton of money, and our shares are going to get cut in half.

But I have a vision for this.

And he could do it.

He doesn't do it.

He doesn't think it.

I'm going to.

Sahil, we don't have any answers for you.

You should go to another con.

Go to Eddie Jassy, he's a really cool guy.

That's what I'd say.

Anyway,

anyway.

All right, Scott, one more quick break.

I got to go soon.

I got things to do.

We'll be back for predictions

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Okay, Scott, you got to do a short one.

I got some things to do today

that I got to get to.

You need to be more loving towards your co-host.

Today is not a loving day.

I'll call you later and I'll be nice to you on the phone.

I'll send you placements.

I need that.

You know I need that.

You know I like it.

I need it.

So prediction time fast because Kara Swisher's got somewhere to go.

Okay, so GameStop is reattaching to the fundamentals.

And this time last week, when we said, and I believe our exact words were, these people were going to get smoked.

They are getting smoked.

It peaked exactly seven days ago.

The stock was at 476.

It peaked.

And now I believe it opened at 71 this morning.

So no tendies, as they say.

Specialty retail, whether it's, you could argue Best Buy is Big Box, but William Sonoma, Restoration Hardware, Abercrombie, and Fitch, Urban Outfitters generally trade somewhere between 0.2 and one times revenues.

GameStop.

So my prediction is very straightforward.

The GameStop is reattaching to the fundamentals and within two weeks is going to be trading somewhere between $25 and $50 a share.

The reattachment is happening.

And also

everybody posing again for Millennial Camera says this is a new era of investing.

No, it's not.

The best regulator in the world.

The best regulator in the world are the pain from mistakes.

And there's tremendous informal regulation going on right now.

All All the attacks I was getting because I didn't get it.

And I was a boomer protecting my hedge fund buddies and I was crying because of my losses, none of which were true.

And all of a sudden, it just went

dark.

It just went dark.

Because you know what's happening?

You know what's happened?

A bunch of people said, hold the line, you know, storm the castle so they could get rich.

And there is so much pain out there right now.

And this thing is reattaching to the fundamentals.

And it's going to be 25 to 50 bucks.

And they say it's a new era in investing.

No, it's not because guess what?

Let me step in.

Here's what's new.

I'm going to step in.

I'm going to step in.

In some cases, there's always going to be a short squeeze kind of company situation.

And this shows that people can do this on certain stocks.

But these short squeezes are very not rare, but they're not.

What really matters is the fundamentals.

And making, if you're interested in investing, I think it's a great thing.

And I think more people should be investing, not just rich people, not just

investing, though.

Define investment.

Do research, pick companies, make good decisions, and stop playing the speculation speculation game.

Like, I get that you want a part of the stupid part of Wall Street, but the casino part and the speculation part is it makes nothing, it creates nothing, it doesn't help people, it doesn't give people jobs.

It's just a lot of bullshit.

And so you can play that game, but when you play that game, you're going to get burned one way or the other, or you're not.

Like it does, you're either screwing someone or being screwed.

And so I don't understand why people want to play that game in any way that's productive to society.

So it's fine that more people are involved.

And if you want to do this thing, but you are going to really, if you don't time it right, if you don't do the right thing and you think it's an emotional thing, it's all about money for most of the people that are playing it.

That's right.

And speaking of money,

here's what the research shows.

80%,

80% of day traders lose money.

And we know what it comes right down to?

It's very simple.

The more you trade, the more money you lose.

What percentage of people who have invested in a number of stocks and left them in there for 20 years have lost money?

Zero.

Zero.

It's exactly what Wilworn Buffett said.

It's not timing the market.

It's time in the market.

Not as much fun, not as much fun, but investing is about finding good companies or even just buying the indices,

low-cost indices.

It's your investment strategy, quite frankly.

It's putting money away, putting things away and not thinking about it.

The biggest mistakes I've made in investing were one, getting into this day trading phenomena for about a week with iOmega, but it was a great lesson for me because it happened early.

And I sold,

I bought Netflix at $12 a share.

That's the good news.

It's at $550.

I sold it at $10 to like take a tax loss or something and never bought it back.

Find good companies, put them away.

And then if you love trading, if you really love the markets, go to Las Vegas.

Well,

not if it's Dopa Hit for you.

From free drinks.

But recognize that Dopa Hit costs money.

But if you love the markets, and I get the sense a lot of these people really love the markets, then try and get some certification certification and some training and go into the industry and get armed with great research and armed with supercomputers.

I do think one of the positive outcomes here is that a lot of young people have been inspired by the markets.

And the markets are a wonderful way to make a living.

But if you're looking to make money, if you're looking to invest, boy,

80% of day traders lose money.

And that's what these people are learning very hard about.

This is a game.

This is a game, and it is a tough game, and it's a nasty game.

And again, my focus is like, you're not helping anybody.

You're helping yourself.

And I'm glad that some people made money and are able to pay for their parents' rent.

There's a lot of cool stories like that out there.

And screwing the man, sure, that's great.

That's great.

But this is not, the real power lies in ownership of really great companies, creating jobs, et cetera.

This is just like anything else that's like gambling.

It's fine.

I like gambling.

I do it myself, but

I know what it is.

I know what it is.

No, you're brother.

It's no prediction.

It's consumption.

Yep, it's consumption.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

And if you like it.

I support the idea, and I do think a lot of those short sellers need to be kicked in the teeth.

I love watching them being kicked in the teeth.

Well, that was fun, no doubt about it.

And if there's any regulation, it should be across all the hedge funds that have been trying to pull this shit for the last 20 or 30 years.

We don't like them anymore.

But we don't like you either in that regard.

You know what I mean?

Like, who's screwing who?

It doesn't matter.

Anyways, you asked for a prediction.

My prediction is GameStop stock within,

it's already happening.

Within two weeks, we'll be between 25 and 50 bucks a share.

And everyone posing for the millennial cameras has said this is a new approach to investing.

So many people, for every story that's been publicized about someone paying off their mortgage,

there's more stories about someone who got egged on and thought they were part of a movement and didn't understand the technology and the technicals of this stock and went in and got smoked.

And I think the lesson here is going to the regulation, the informal regulation that's going to happen here in the market dynamics are that the warriors who will hold the line and take a spear in the chest for you, the bandit, the person trying to make money off of them, those people are going to rethink it the next time.

And I just don't think you're going to see the same level.

I don't think you're going to see as many what I'll call

crowd squeezes.

We'll see.

We'll see.

It's interesting.

It sure is interesting.

That's all I have to say.

Okay, Scott, that's the show.

I'm sorry if I wasn't nice to you, but I really do bring.

No, don't even start.

Like if someone's even slow, shows you one like says, oh, you're late, you get like, oh, you're hurting my feelings.

Come on, come on, come on.

Got to start investing in the relationship.

I'm short squeezing our relationship.

That's what I'm trying to do.

You know, Kara, this is the real question.

Are you angry at me or are you angry at yourself?

I'm never angry at me.

Are you angry at yourself?

I am literally never angry at myself.

So, Did there's actually, I'm being serious for a moment.

One of the keys to living a happy, rewarding life is not only bringing forgiveness to others, because in every relationship, both parties will at some point screw up, is bringing forgiveness, but also also bringing forgiveness to yourself.

At the end of life, at the end of life, you know what people's biggest regrets are?

What?

Well, well that they hadn't invested more in the relationships that they hadn't lived the life that they wanted to live instead of what society wanted them live yeah to live and also they wish they wish they'd been more forgiving of themselves they wish they'd been less hard on themselves so be less hard on yourself and not

hard on myself

i love myself dude i'm fine on all those things i'm good i'm good you're angry you're being mean to yourself

you're being you're being mean to yourself okay today's episode all right that's the show go to new York Magazine, nymag.com slash pivot to submit your question for the podcast.

The link is also in our show notes.

Scott, I am leaving you right now.

I got to go.

I got to go do something.

All right.

I adore you, Scott.

Bring forgiveness.

But largely it's because

of major mental issues I have.

That's why I like you.

Anyway, read us out.

Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sonanas.

Ernie Indra Todd engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burroughs.

Make sure you've subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify, or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business.

Life is not about what happens to you, it's about how you react to what happens to you.

Forgive yourself.

Don't be so hard on yourself.