Twitter and Facebook ban Trump, the future of Internet regulations under Democrats, and a prediction on Sheryl Sandberg

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott is out this week, so the family affair continues with my co-hosts, Louis Swisher and Casey Newton, the editor of Platformer, a newsletter about big tech and democracy.

Obviously, Louis Swisher is my son, who is fantastic.

Hello, boys.

Hello, Carla.

Happy.

How you doing?

Thank you.

Casey's in California.

Louis is downstairs at my studio, my podcast studio here in Washington.

That's great.

My second studio.

So there's so much to talk about.

And we are going to talk about what happened in the Capitol.

How are you two doing at the end of 2020 into 2021?

Louise, tell me.

I mean, same day, different year.

It's been a pretty weird experience, and it feels like a lot more of the same,

especially with what happened or transpired yesterday.

So we're going to get into that, but how are you looking toward 2021?

I mean, still with hope.

It's still, I think, a pretty promising year considering everything that's happened over the past week.

But we'll just have to wait and see.

So how has the fall been?

And going, you went to college and you went to NYU and you completed a semester there.

You also had a two-week quarantine and everything else.

So how would you assess your first few months at college?

Because there was a lot of controversy of people going back to school and you'll be going back to school in a couple of weeks.

Yes, I will be.

It's definitely

not at all what

like you guys have made it seem like.

It's a very, very weird year to be in college,

very limiting year to being college.

And, you know, there's still like a lot of silver lining to it.

My classes were still excellent.

I still really enjoyed what I was learning about.

I found it very intriguing and interesting, but a lot of like this, like the social life of college was almost like shot in the gut.

And that sucked.

But I think it was manageable.

And I think as like, you know, we move through this pandemic, things will get better.

And,

you know, it'll return to normal, but it was definitely a weird experience I've gone through and something I'm glad is past me.

But yeah, well, not yet, actually.

Well, we're almost there.

We're almost there.

We're almost there.

So, Casey, how are you doing there in San Francisco?

California pandemic has gotten worse.

You're in place.

Is that right?

Yeah.

I mean, I, you know, I was going to go down and see my family for Christmas, cancel my plans, spent the whole time here in the cottage, and that was really bad and hard, but it felt like the responsible thing to do.

And I had about, I don't know, six hours worth of optimism when the Democrats regained control of the Senate.

And then a coup happened.

Oh, that was six years ago that happened.

Yeah, it feels that way.

So, you know, yesterday, I mean, I truly think was a dark day in American history.

And I still think darker days could be ahead as long as Trump remains in office.

So right now, my eye is just very much on what that man is going to do and whether he can be dislodged from the presidency, preferably before January 20th.

So that, which is in 13 days, correct 13 days.

Louis, we're going to get to the president in a second, but

Casey,

when you're...

feeling that way, when you have this up and down thing,

what do you do?

What are you doing to cope?

I mean, I do throw a lot of it into my work, right?

Like the reason that I built the job that I have is because I like engaging with these issues and I cover the tech industry.

And I think there are things that the tech industry can do to make life marginally better for the rest of us.

So, you know, I put a lot of it into there.

You know, but outside of that, I mean,

one of the many tragedies of the pandemic is it has just taken away some of my old coping mechanisms.

You know, I'm in an improv comedy troupe.

We've been meeting over Zoom for nine months now.

Let me tell you, if you hate improv in real life, wait till you have it happening over Zoom.

It is not any better.

Okay.

Is it funnier?

No, it's much worse.

There's so much lag.

None of the jokes land.

It's miserable.

And that was one of the main things that I would do to sort of decompress.

You know, and of course, you can't travel.

It's harder to see your friends.

The one nice thing is that, you know, here at the house, we now have a roof deck with great furniture.

And so I'll have a friend over and we'll sit up on the roof and we'll, you know, have a drink or a glass of wine.

And, you know, that has sort of been getting me through.

But it's just really shocking how few things it feels like we really have that we're able to do safely just to maintain some sort of social connection to the world around us right now.

Louis, how do you deal with that?

Maybe I don't want to know.

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's some ways I could get into, but

I won't.

But

definitely, I totally agree with what Casey just said.

The usual means of like, you know, feeling better, like seeing good friends, spending time with loved ones is it's it's almost impossible to nowadays without some sort of risk or, you know, fear on my mind.

So I think it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a year that's made us all stronger

and more resilient.

And, you know, I find myself like, you know, as everyone does, struggling with 2020 and its continuation.

It's, it's, you know, most terrible sequel 2021.

So

I think, you know, it's a really hard year.

But I think there's, you know, there's still some, I found spending a lot of time with the family has been

a benefit.

I really enjoy your guys' company.

Oh, wow.

You're just saying that, Lou.

Maybe I am.

Maybe I'm not.

Yeah, maybe you're not.

Who knows with you anymore?

All right, we're going to move on to the big story because there is only one story right now.

So, okay, big stories obviously is the insurrection on the U.S.

Capitol this week.

I can't believe I'm saying that.

Let's talk about the platform's response to the coup and Trump's reactions.

Facebook removed Trump's video response to the mob, wherein he said the rioters were loved and special, and he was cheated, and he understood.

And by the way, go home.

That was the sort of what he was supposed to be doing, but he did very little of that, lied quite a bit in the video.

Twitter, which he does all the time, by the way, he did it all day yesterday.

He's done it for the past months since the election.

Twitter ultimately removed several of Trump's tweets and locked him out of his pup for 12 hours.

He's probably could be back on very soon, possibly longer if he does not remove the tweets.

So let's start with Casey.

Casey,

you can reflect on this, this in a second, because we're going to also talk about the organization.

I also want to talk about the organization on platforms, but let's talk about the actions of not just Twitter, but it's YouTube and

Facebook.

So all three of them removed the video that Trump posted in which he less than half-heartedly tried to encourage his mob to leave the Capitol.

Facebook put out a statement saying they thought that on balance, it was likelier to lead to more violence than not.

YouTube actually removed it first.

Twitter had labeled it and then eventually removed it.

And then a few hours later, they issue both Facebook and YouTube issued temporary suspensions.

For Twitter, it was 12 hours after Trump deleted his tweets.

And for Facebook, it was a full 24-hour ban.

YouTube still has yet to act.

I don't think this is enough.

I argued in my column yesterday that now is the time to finally deplatform Trump.

But these steps that they've taken, I think, have made it likelier than ever before

that they actually will.

That they will do that.

So why this 12, explain the thinking inside these companies because they each did different things.

They each did, and they're confusing.

They've been confusing for months about the different things they do here.

Just lay them out very quickly for Louis and I.

And then I'd love, Louie, your response of

how you feel about the deplatforming.

Go ahead.

Yeah, so social networks are built to get posts up, right?

Social networks work when they have as many people as possible on them and posting and if you make a mistake they want to get you back up and running as soon as you can so that you can get on there and you can post and share and engage and see ads and click on ads and buy things right that's how these things are built and so when they're designing policies like this they don't they don't come at it from the perspective of like what are the ways that we can ban our users right it's always about what are the penalties that we can assess and all of those penalties are oriented around getting users back on the platform.

So you look at what Twitter did and that makes sense if you're talking about somebody who, I don't know,

you actually, I could call Louie like a really mean name on Twitter and like my account wouldn't be suspended.

But maybe I could like threaten him in some way.

And Twitter, instead of banning me forever, would say, all right, Casey, take 12 hours off, like get a cooler head, and then you can come back to the platform.

The problem is they're now trying to apply this same logic to a would-be autocrat who's staging a coup against his own government.

And so that's where I just think a lie needs to be drawn.

All right, Louie, Louis, how do you feel about this?

What do you,

and I, Casey, we do want to, because you and I have argued, I've thought he should be deep platform.

You have been on the other side of that for a lot.

Louis, what do you think about this as someone who watches this?

Well,

I totally agree with Casey there.

I think these tech companies are way too forgiving and they're always trying to invite users onto their platforms.

And

it seems they don't really have

a way to keep these leaders and the things they say, like, you know, hold them accountable for the things they say.

So

I think he totally should have been kicked off a while ago.

I guess I thought the presidency gave him some sort of protection on Twitter, but I guess it doesn't.

And, you know, it's a private company.

Jack should kick him off whenever he pleases, whenever he feels like it.

And I think, you know, it should have been months ago, but no time like the present.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So do you, do you, are you offended by, you know,

they argue, conservatives argue that they've been discriminated against to no proof that this has happened, but that they, they, to me, they violate BS.

They violate it more.

That's what I'm saying.

They've been giving a platform more than anything they've yeah so so do you feel that that that the president should be given a special consideration or not

well like no no he still has his first amendment rights to be um you know to be to speak freely and to be i guess to be heard doesn't have to be listened to but like you can't uh shout fire in a theater you know and he is he just called for a coup almost here pretty much but you know without without doing it necessarily he called for a coup in an invasion of the capital so i think you know he needs to be held accountable for his words and what he incentivizes How is that different from you?

I mean, I'm going to press you here than cable.

I can't believe I'm on this side.

I think he should be deplatformed completely, but the, the, then not saying it on television or somewhere else or saying those things.

Because he's the president of the United States and people will listen to him.

Because

he doesn't get edited there.

And on TV, they can say that is not true.

He shouldn't do that.

They can, they can add things in.

And on Twitter, they don't do that or Facebook.

Yeah, he needs to be held accountable.

Do you pay attention to him on Twitter at all?

You You know, I think the best way to deal with Trump going forward should be to ignore him, but apparently we can't leave him like alone.

So after the amounts of video.

So Casey, you have shifted on this.

You and I, I have thought he should be the platform for a while.

And I got a lot of flag from the First Amendment crowd because I was like, this is a private company.

This is not a public square.

They can do whatever they want, even though it's capricious.

That's the problem I have with them.

What shifted your brain?

That there were people taking selfies in Nancy Pelosi's office or what?

Well, I've always agreed that they could do it if they wanted.

I thought that one, it would just not be very practically effective because you know what would happen is that Trump would decamp to some other platform or he would just post to the official White House website and somebody would write a bot, actually, a lot of people would, that would instantly repost everything the president said there to Twitter.

One of those accounts would grow up, you know, and be really large.

And, you know, you could say, well, you know, the platforms could ban those too.

But I just think when you're talking about the president of the United States and you have a person who often is talking about the official business that he's conducting on behalf of the people,

you just want to have a balance that tilts toward letting that person continue to talk, even if you think, you know, as I do, that he is the worst person in the world.

I think what changed is he now has no legitimate claim on power.

He has no legitimate claim to that office.

He encouraged an attack on his own government yesterday.

And if Twitter and Facebook want to continue to exist in a democracy, it is in their interest to remove someone who is using that platform as a weapon to undermine the democracy that we all depend on.

So I just think that yesterday, a Rubicon was crossed.

I understand the arguments to ban him earlier.

And my mentions are full of people saying, oh, well,

now you say it.

But frankly, I think that there is power in some cohort of us holding back, not calling for an immediate ban.

And then when the bright line does finally get crossed, people like me and Ben Thompson come along and say, enough is enough.

And, you know, my hope is that it will have some influence inside of these, the walls of those platforms.

So, so, what, what, how does that manifest itself?

What do you think

that, how would it, how does that occur?

And do you think they'll do it?

Do you have any insight into the relationship of these companies?

Yeah.

I do.

Twitter put out a multi-thread statement that basically said Trump is on his last warning.

I'm working on some reporting.

It's like when Louis was a kid.

If you do this one more time.

Yeah, but I mean, look, like, I, you know, the last time this came up, or one of the last times was when Trump basically threatened nuclear war, you know, like, I think it was against Iran.

He's also said, you know, very scary things about North Korea.

And I understand people look at it.

It's like, this is crazy.

Like, this man is using this platform to threaten nuclear war.

Like, obviously, get rid of him, you know.

But at the same time, like, this is an official communication from the president of the United States.

Like, we all hate that he's threatening nuclear war.

But if he's going to do it, like, shouldn't we know?

Shouldn't we like have that discussion?

And I've sort of leaned on that side.

But we're just in a different ballgame now.

Joe Joe Biden has been certified as the president-elect of the United States.

Trump is a lame duck.

He is soon to be a private citizen.

And so he should just no longer be afforded the protections that were given to the president of the United States.

And I think that that's actually a huge difference.

Okay.

And Louis, when you think about where he can go, where he could go, how should there's a, there's a site I just did an interview this morning with John Mates of a parlay, parlor.

Parlor used to be called parlay.

And the things that are considered tweets on parlor are called parlays,

which is confusing.

He's probably going to go over there to other sites.

Should there be a fully free speech platform?

I mean, doesn't like 8chan exist?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I think that, well, there's already places for that.

So I think, yes, I think people have the right to, you know, say what they want, but I don't think they have the right to be free of the consequences of what they say.

There's always, there should, you know, even if you threaten someone, there should be consequences.

If you speak ill of someone, you may have to speak to that person or something.

But I think Trump is, there's always going to be a slot on Fox News for Donald Trump.

So I think he'll find places to go, whether it's not, whether it's Fox, OAN, Breitbart, other platforms who will hear what he has to say,

regardless of if he's banned from Twitter.

But I think being on mainstream platforms and holding a mainstream,

standing on a box in the public square and

like a respected box, you know,

it gives him an elevated voice that I think he no longer deserves.

Yeah, perfectly.

The mainstream.

I think you're right about the mainstream things.

All right, let's get to the idea of, do you think he's going over parlor, Casey?

He's got to go back to the fringes.

I do.

And you know why?

Because we got some breaking news.

This is happening as we're recording.

Mark Zuckerberg just posted and said that they are going to restrict Trump's access to his account indefinitely and at least through the next two weeks.

So he is not going to have access to Facebook.

So that's the right thing to do.

And as a result, I would expect the president to find another home.

You know, often what will happen is that one platform will make a move like this and the rest of them look sort of look around and say, you know what?

Like if we're ever going to do it, it's now.

And they all kind of jump together.

I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, by the end of today, Twitter makes a similar move.

Yeah, that's, I'm guessing they should, which is what I called for just recently.

So talk a little bit about

the posting on social media of this stuff.

Louis, you were watching a lot of these things

yesterday, these pictures of them doing selfies and stuff like that.

One of the things that occurred to me was that they put their pictures out there.

They're actually actively putting out their pictures.

And so it's easy for the FBI to track them.

Yeah, well, they think they're patriots saving the United States of America from an election that was stolen.

They literally believe the narrative that they're trying to uphold and the narrative that they're fighting for.

So I think if you were trying to save America, you would post a selfie too.

But, you know, they're just, they're just incriminating themselves.

They're proving that they were there.

I mean, it's like I said, like I said when we were talking before this podcast, if there's any time to wear a mask, it's when you're storming the Capitol.

So

but they can't spread COVID, Louie.

I mean, more for anonymity, but like, more for anonymity, but like, I mean, it's just, I think they're just totally incriminating themselves.

And I think they're proud of their actions.

And I think that, so that totally debunks some of these Antifa theories about who, you know, who really raided the Capitol, which are ridiculous.

But I think, you know, yeah, it's, it's, if they, I think they're, they're very proud of their actions, it seems, and they should be held responsible for their actions.

All right, Casey, what about you?

What do you think about this?

How they're using social media, all the, all the, the MAGA people are using it because they use it actively.

They're on Parlor.

They're on, they're on all kinds of, they're all on Instagram.

They're Instagramming this stuff.

What it felt like, I was like, literally, it's a reality show.

It was Duck Dynasty.

It was the guy with the Viking hat or wherever the hell that guy is.

He's a very scary right-wing fella.

I think he's the Qnon shaman or something like that.

QNAN, the QAnon guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I accept as part of living in a democracy, I mean, to be surrounded by hundreds of millions of people who disagree with me about all sorts of things, right?

And wear clothes.

We do live in the Castro.

You and I live in the Castro.

Hey, sometimes in the Castro, they don't wear clothes at all.

But, you know,

so I don't tend to think of this in terms of like, oh, like, you know, MAGA is using social media.

That's a problem.

What I see the problem is, is

realities are splintering.

You look around the last couple of weeks.

You have this pharmacist in Wisconsin who decides that vaccines are hurting people.

So he sabotages 500 doses.

You have in the United Kingdom, people are hanging up the Magna Carta in the windows because they think it allows them to reopen their shops because they saw it in a viral Facebook post.

You saw the Nashville bomber who is under investigation for maybe believing that a lot of Democrats are like extraterrestrials and lizard people.

And it's just become clear to me that this is not a problem that you can solve by removing individual pieces of information, which is what the platforms have tried to do up until now.

You actually need to promote high quality news.

You need to create a shared sense of reality.

And I could talk about ways that I think the platforms can do it, but ultimately, like that, I think is the issue that we need to address, you know, more than like, well, you know, some Republicans are doing stupid posts.

So,

Louis, when you think about this, about using social media, you're sort of a medium user.

Tell me how you use it right now, how you think about that.

Like,

I'm glad you didn't go to Congress and take a selfie.

And I'm glad you didn't steal the podium and then do thumbs up.

That picture, I was like, your entire face stealing and thumbs up.

Like, hey,

and an adult.

It was also an adult who did it.

But go ahead.

I wouldn't really want to hang around that crowd.

But

I think that, you know,

I use social media pretty, you know, as much.

It's gone up, definitely.

My usage has definitely gone up during the pandemic and the, you know, the restricted lifestyle

that it creates.

But I've been trying to move away from more of like the social media apps and more towards like, you know, the social

aspect of it and more towards like the, I don't know, like the news aspect of it.

I'm trying to like, I don't really know how I'm trying to convey it, but like I look at Twitter for newsful things

rather than like memes.

Yeah, but you've evolved.

I mean, yeah.

Talk about your evolving because you use Snapchat still, correct?

Yeah, I do.

I do.

It's still a pretty good way of talking to people.

I think from now on, I'll be asking for numbers, not Snapchats.

Forget the Snapchatting business.

So when you do that, when you think about like Instagram, when you think about TikTok, you don't do TikTok at all.

Is that correct?

Yeah, I had TikTok, but then I got rid of it.

I wasn't really feeling it.

You said you just, you got rid of it.

Why?

I just wasn't really feeling it.

I didn't really enjoy the.

I mean, I used it a lot.

They definitely got my attention for a while.

But, um, you were talking about the dancing, you didn't like all the, yeah, I just found, I just found myself just like laying in bed, just scrolling on TikToks for hours and hours and hours.

And I was like, wow, I need to delete this app.

But now I do it with YouTube, so it's a little better.

Yeah, you've used it, consistently used YouTube.

I love YouTube.

So, Casey, what is going to happen with this idea of these companies also posting illegal pictures?

Like, these guys are stealing fun.

It's all fun and games until you steal Nancy Pelosi's podium.

Yeah, I mean, there's been this really interesting debate about that over the past couple of years because people will use social media to post like war crimes, for example, or they'll post like stolen antiquities.

And the platforms will come along and say, well, this is a crime and you're not allowed to post evidence of crime on our networks.

And so then they'll delete it.

And then the activists come along and says, you're deleting evidence of war crimes.

And like you're deleting part of the historical record.

record.

And so there's this debate about what platforms should do in this case.

And I think, you know, the answer is that instead of deleting the content, it probably doesn't need to be removed from the camera.

They were doing that with a lot of cases.

They were doing that with a lot of the people in Beijing and Capitol.

They were taking down their videos.

Yeah, but they were.

They were keeping up the journalists' ones of the same thing from the other side, which was interesting.

There's a great organization called Bellingcat, which does a lot of sort of like investigations into wrongdoing, using social media as part of their investigations.

And yesterday they put out a call and they said, if you see any video anywhere from the Capitol, please save them and submit them to us because we want to build build a historical record of everything that's going on.

I'm sure some of it will be shared with law enforcement.

But so you're now seeing these like community projects.

The revolution will be televised.

The revolution

and archived and live streamed and all of it.

By the way, MAGA people, it's not a revolution.

It's just gross.

It's what it is.

And then lastly, when you think about this idea of

keeping every bit of things in a record,

Louie, how do you feel about that?

Like, because your whole life, you know, you and I have had long discussions.

I'm a bit too much of a sharant.

Your brother never lets me uh put anything up, and he's very

on lockdown.

You're not going to get his image.

You know, he's like, it's easier to find images of the Sacklers than it is to find images of Alex Swisher.

You know, like one time, I remember very vividly one time we were in Chicago and we were at an Apple event, and some Apple reporter or photographer snagged a picture of him.

It was up on the website, like coincidentally, and he had it shut down within minutes.

He was like, God damn it, that's my idea.

He made me He made me call like Tim Cook and take a look at it.

Yeah, like I said, easier to find images of Richard Sackler than Alex Swiss.

All right.

Casey and Louie, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about another big news story of the week, the Senate Flipping Blue, and what it means for the future of internet regulations.

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Okay, we're back.

Georgia voted in Senators Raphael Warnick and John Osoff to be in the Senate.

both Democrats.

That means the House, the Senate, and the White House will all be blue.

What will it mean for the future of the FCC and the future of the internet?

Now, I know, Louis, you're not an expert, but you have thoughts on tech regulation.

You know, I talk about it consistently and constantly.

I know it's riveting to you.

But I'm going to start with Casey on this one.

Casey, what happens to all these things?

Net neutrality, the attacks on TikTok, Amazon of the Post Office,

Section 230.

It's like everything.

What's already things that Bill Barr had started in the Justice Department against Google and in the FTC against Facebook?

Yeah, I mean, I think the number one thing is you will just see these questions begin to be answered in a calmer, slower democratic process and not be decided by the whims of a madman.

Right.

And that's like, we sort of just take for granted that

that's like our way of life now, but it's not going to be next month and I can't wait.

But it is going to have some practical consequences.

I think one of the big ones is there was an assumption that the Republicans would maintain control of the Senate.

And so Biden would have to compromise on his FCC appointees in particular and would not be allowed to appoint anyone who believed in net neutrality.

That's not true anymore.

So Biden has a real opportunity to get in there and appoint people who believe in net neutrality.

And so this could have actually saved net neutrality for the rest of us.

Saved net neutrality.

All right.

What else?

What else?

What are they going to do?

Because I think Biden doesn't know a whole lot.

You know, every time he talks about 230, I get a little bit like, no.

He doesn't.

It's really, it's like one of the things about him that I find the most disappointing is he just doesn't have a sophisticated understanding of that law at all.

I mean, I'm sure there are some laws he has a good understanding of.

Hey, wait, wait.

Does your grandpa, like, come on?

Does your grandpa understand how to work?

He's dead for your information, Louie.

Oh, wow.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Wow.

Too soon.

Too soon.

It's okay.

But

yeah, he doesn't have a good understanding of that.

And, but, okay, but, but at the same time, he has said, like, ban it and repeal it.

So, and, and he doesn't, like, use that kind of talk lightly or about a lot of things.

And so, I am inclined to believe he's at least somewhat serious.

So, it does seem like she's talked about it.

I think she has is a more up to speed.

And some others have different thoughts.

There are a lot of very, let me disabuse.

There's a lot of very intelligent politicians on these issues, by the way, on both sides of the aisle.

Incredibly, there's a lot of really smart people who do understand this and they regulate everything else.

So there's no reason why they can't regulate this.

So if you had to stack rank what is going to be looked at, obviously the continuing investigation, Justice Department investigations, the FTC investigations into Facebook, Google,

what do you see the big part?

Is it going to be antitrust?

Is it going to be a privacy law?

Is it going to be Section 230?

Is Josh?

I think Josh Holly is finished in many ways and he certainly can't be the leader on this 230 thing, which he was relatively pushing it really hard.

But what do you think?

Pick one.

I think antitrust, because both Republicans and Democrats share the belief that these companies are too big and they want to see them broken up.

You know, I actually think we will see more antitrust.

There is a lot of momentum behind an Amazon antitrust suit and there is a lot of good reason to pursue an Apple antitrust suit.

So I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year, both of those weren't facing antitrust legislation or regulations of their own.

And you think Merrick Garland

will black these.

It'll take the backing of those.

I know Merritt Garland, Kara.

Which I don't.

I do.

I do.

I said what's to a daughter.

What's he really like?

What's he really like?

He's lovely.

He's lovely.

I just had literally, this is a dinner party in Washington that I went to, which I'm going to drop some names here.

But on one side was Merrick Garland and the other side was Elena Kagan.

Oh my gosh.

It was like Supreme Court Justice and the one who didn't get it.

And it was so, so, of course, what did I do?

That sucked, huh?

That's what I said to Vera Carlin.

And I bet he loved it.

He was like, get a load of this firecracker.

Well, he was super sweet.

He's very nice.

He's really confident.

His wife was like, yeah, that sucked.

Like, you know what I mean?

It was interesting.

It was an interesting thing.

But in any case, that's DC.

So, Louis, when you think about regulating, you're not an expert in this, obviously, but when you think about big tech, are they, well, you're not.

You're not.

What do you think about the power of big tech and the power of big companies?

Are you worried that, you know, I think I've drilled it into you that we shouldn't have nests in our house, this and that.

Like the idea.

Yeah, we do.

Yeah, we have a thermal, we have a thermostat, but it's all the things are turned off, so it can't really spy us too much.

And again, your brother went around and unplugged all the cameras and everything else that happened to be in the house.

But how do you feel about the power of big tech?

Yeah, I think big tech is way too much power.

And I think with this change in political control, characters like Elizabeth Warner are going to have a field day on the tech industry, which I'm really excited to see happen.

I think they've long gone too unregulated.

They're just like the big oil companies of

the past centuries.

And I think that they're, you know, it's time that they got regulated.

It's time that the employees became more respected in the companies rather than like the shareholders.

And like that the, you know, I just think it's time for change.

And I think this is the time for it.

Now, you use, you use Amazon a lot.

That's the one you interfere with.

No, I actually don't.

I don't really like Amazon.

I actually like going to the store.

Oh, I think that's pretty exciting.

Yeah.

I think think Amazon's great.

Amazon has a, I've definitely used Amazon a lot in the past.

But do you think about it?

Because a lot of people feel like a lot of younger people do make choices on what they buy it and where they buy it.

Yeah, I mean,

I always prefer to go to like a brick and mortar establishment.

I find it more exciting than just sitting behind my computer and clicking away.

And also, I find I buy less than like if I'm just sitting behind the computer.

All right.

But

I think

I'm always aware of what I'm doing.

I think a lot of younger people are too, but I also think a lot of people are very unaware of the implications of their decisions on the internet and which companies they interact with.

Yeah.

Would you be able to stack rank them yourself?

Which ones do you think are better or worse?

I'll give you five.

Apple, Netflix,

Google, Google slash alphabet, Facebook, and Twitter.

Wait, well, better is very subjective.

What do you mean by that?

Well, which one do you feel has your interests at heart?

As you know, when you think of the brands that you like?

Probably Apple.

I i feel like i trust apple the most out of all those uh companies to have the um my interest at heart i think i just got a new phone and their terms of service i actually looked through the terms of service for the first time oh wow and it was it was it was a little i didn't read the whole thing of course but you know i found it a little more i felt a little more comforted by apple than any of these other companies some of them scare me like amazon definitely scares me uh-huh And what about a Netflix when it knows what you watch?

You watch a lot of Netflix.

Yeah, I like, I'm more of an HBO Max kind of guy, but

I do like Netflix.

I've watched a lot of great shows.

Um, I'm, you know, like they're taking off some ones that I like, which I'm upset about.

But let me ask that.

This is off, off topic, but you're an HBO Max kind of guy.

Why is that?

Compared to all these streaming services, how do you look at it?

Because you use them all.

You use all of them.

Yeah.

Do you watch anything in a linear way?

No, you don't, you just watch everything on demand, correct?

What is the linear way?

What is the linear way?

Like, it comes on and on the cable box.

On the cable box.

Oh, yeah.

I used to when I was was younger, but now we have all these cool technologies, so I don't have to.

Yeah.

So what do you

use YouTube?

Yeah, I use YouTube way too much.

I love YouTube.

It's good for my short attention span and it has a lot of

interesting content.

I try to watch more informative content than stupid content, but I find I enjoy both.

Can I ask you a question?

When this idea I wrote recently about Warner Brothers putting all the movies and Casey has written about this too, Warner Brothers putting all the movies on streaming services so that you watch them at home.

I watched Wonder Woman in 84, for example, but they put all 17 movies on their 17 of their movies on the slate on their new HBO service.

Max, do you care about movie theaters?

Or do you, do you, do you, do, would you rather just watch them when you want to?

Well, I, I, I, was that for Casey?

No, for you.

And then Casey.

Well, I've been a long-standing believer in watching movies at home over the movie theaters since I was little.

Like, I can pause it when I want.

I can bring the food that I want.

You know, I think it's, you could turn your home into a movie theater, which is pretty exciting.

But there is always this, like, you know, there's a joy of going to the movie theater that can't really be replaced.

So I think those will definitely still stick around.

But I much prefer watching movies at home than the theater.

What about you, Casey Newton?

Using it on the internet there in San Francisco.

My hope is that this is the crisis that leads movie theaters to reinvent themselves.

And we already have some great movie theaters here in San Francisco.

I love our Alamo Draft House.

Sure.

You know,

pretty much.

Oh, no, the one in Barcadero is okay.

The kabuki is nice too, right?

You can order a drink, right?

The food is maybe one cut above what you would find like at an AMC.

You know, when Louis was a kid, I went, we got movie tickets and they wouldn't let us in because we had to go through the bar to get there once.

You could walk through the bar.

Oh, wow.

That was a great crisis in the Swisher family.

Yeah.

But yeah, like I think, I think

I remember, you know, before the pandemic, Alamo was starting to experiment with like monthly pass.

And I think it was, you know, 30 bucks a month, and you could see like two or three movies, right?

Like, you know, movie pass sort of came and went, but I think got a lot of people excited about the idea of what a smarter movie theater could do.

So I still think there's a lot of opportunity there because at the end of the day, like people need to go on dates, people need to do things with their kids, right?

Like people love to leave the house.

And I think they will be happy to do so again, but the movie theaters are going to need to meet them halfway.

And, you know, to your Wonder Woman point, I watched that, that, uh, that movie on Christmas.

Uh, terrible, by the way, really sad.

Um, but it's a movie that after I read the reviews, I wouldn't have gone to see it in the theater, yeah, but I was happy to pay HBO 15 bucks to have something to do on Christmas.

So I think there's a way where like everyone can win here.

All right.

What are you watching?

What's your big show?

Yours is the wired.

Louis is sort of retro.

What is yours, Casey?

I've spent quarantine.

I've watched 30 seasons of Survivor.

Oh, my God.

There is something in this time watching, like, it's such a hard time.

The way I feel better about myself.

I'm going to regulate Casey.

That's what needs to happen.

Yeah, we got that.

That's too much survivor, Casey.

It definitely is.

I also just got Masterclass, so now I'm watching Gordon Ramsey who's teaching me.

Oh, I've seen the ads for that.

It seems the ads got me.

That show looks great.

It looks great.

It's fun.

I like it.

All right.

All right.

I do have a hot take, though, on this.

Oh,

I think, I think.

2020 and the pandemic and everything.

Can you go ahead?

Hot take.

Like, it will be the rebirth of the drive-in movie.

I think.

I think that is going to be reinvented.

I went to some this summer.

It was really great.

It was, I think that's going to be a big comeback.

And is that just because teens love making out in drive-in movies?

I mean, that's one reason.

But I think they're really nice.

They're really charming, especially in the, you know, when everyone's there, everyone's distanced, but everyone's safe and everyone's having a good time.

And it's almost like a semblance of normalcy, which I think is really, really like something that everyone's searching for.

Yeah, that's a flash in the pan.

People will go right back to not going to bar.

I, hey, if there's a drive movie, I'd love to go.

All right.

Okay.

We'll get you one.

And then, so I was going to ask you, what is your prediction, Louie?

Is that your prediction that we drive in movies?

That's not a prediction.

I want Casey and Louie, both of you.

But first of all, what is the show you want?

You watch The Wired is the next one you're going to watch, right?

That's my next adventure.

Yeah.

Your next adventure.

Okay.

On that note, all right, Casey and Louie, one more quick break, and we'll be back for predictions.

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Okay, Casey and Louie, usually Scott is the prediction machine, but tell me one thing you expect to see in the days, weeks, or months ahead.

Casey, you go first.

All right.

Myge before beauty.

No, beauty before.

Beauty and age last.

Okay.

I'm an honorary member of Gen Z.

My hot prediction is that Cheryl Sandberg will not be at Facebook by the end of the year.

I think assuming that Trump is dislodged from the presidency, Democrats retake control of everything, start to pass some pro-democracy legislation, she will not have a better opportunity in the next four years than she has this year, maybe next year, to kind of gracefully step away.

She'll be able to say, look,

we had a lot of problems.

I fixed as many of them as I could.

This is a natural stepping away point for me.

So I say Cheryl's days are now numbered.

Oh, wow.

And what is the real behind the scenes situation, Casey Newton?

You know, I mean, I haven't heard a lot of whispering, but the question I'm always asking people at Facebook is: like, what is Cheryl like about her job?

Like, she has nothing left to prove.

She has nothing hard problems ahead of time.

She's still as influential.

I think that she's extremely influential.

I think, you know, Mark Mark takes her counsel very seriously.

But she's been doing that job a long time.

And no part of that job turned into a job for years.

I think Mark takes his own counsel.

I think he doesn't.

I think he was relying on her a lot more and

less so.

And that's the problem.

One of the problems.

Well, you know, people have a lot of criticism of her too.

But that's a very good prediction.

When, when, when, when?

I'm just gonna, I would say like by the end of the year is sort of what it feels like to me.

Um, I think it'll depend.

I mean, first of all, the Democrats have to actually assume power.

Like they've won, but as we've seen over the past year.

She's now not getting a job in this administration.

I don't think she wants one.

Like I think she'll do something that's like sort of either in the non-profit realm or the venture realm, at least for a little bit.

Like maybe she'll come back to politics later.

I mean, you know, she's an incredibly talented business leader.

Like she can do a million different things.

So you think she can she can revive the career because she's really been tarnished.

I know in D.C.

They're like, no way.

You know, and

she would have been number one on the list of commerce, labor, this and that.

I think that's what there has to be like an intermediate step, which, you know, might make a non-profit thing more likely.

But I could also just see her like doing something like that, you know, for the next, you know, long stretch of her career.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she's still young.

She's still very young.

We'll see if she takes over another

thing.

But I think a lot of people definitely have a lot of criticism of her.

And a lot of it is aimed at her over Mark, which, as you know, I have argued that Mark deserves much of the credit and the detraction.

Louis, prediction.

I think my prediction for 2021, or maybe the the coming months, coming year, is that it's going to be a year of progress.

It may not be, I think now that the Senate has flipped blue, it's going to be a bit more progress than it would have been, but I think it will be incremental and steady progress towards a greater America based off

the fact that there's

a return to a sense of normalcy, a step away from the chaotic,

the chaos of the Trump era and the Trump administration.

I think, you know, call me young and naive, but

I think we have, okay, but I think we have politicians who will actually now listen to us.

And if there's going to be real change, I think it's going to happen now.

You sound like a first thing they should do is fix the election or else nothing's going to happen.

Do you want to run for office?

Maybe.

I don't know.

There's a lot of things I want to do in my life, but we will see.

We will see.

I have a hopefully a lot of life ahead of me.

Yeah.

Do you know what

you used to say when you were in restaurants?

You don't remember when you were a kid.

I'm going to now embarrass you.

Louis used to go up to people.

He's very friendly to people.

And he used to go up to people and go, hi, Louis Swisher.

I'd like your vote for presidency, please.

And walk away.

He would say, yeah.

And if Louis had been elected president, we'd be in a much better place, right?

Exactly.

Exactly.

I got more votes than Carrie.

Yeah, exactly.

All right.

That's a very hopeful prediction, Louis Swisher.

That's very lovely.

You always managed to surprise me.

Also, I'm glad Louis went after me

if I had to follow that up with my

lame prediction about corporate.

That was the James Stewart moment.

Like, she'd be in the well of Congress making that thing.

Did either of you watch last night?

I watched until four in the morning.

I did it.

I'm so upset and disturbed by all of it.

And I had been reading tweets like continuously for 18 hours, and I finally decided to set it aside.

Yeah, I would watch some of it if you were with.

I thought Tammy Duckworth was good.

Mitt Romney was quite good.

I did watch part of it.

Yeah, Ted Cruz was an irritating.

That Iowa boy, that skinny Iowa boy, Holly or something.

He needs to stop.

Missouri.

He needs to stop.

Awful.

Missouri.

Missouri.

Sorry.

Yeah.

But he's he needs to stop.

We all agree.

We all are in agreement about that.

And then Ted Cruz, as usual, is as despicable as usual and rounding out the

ship of fools that is hopefully Sam.

He has to shave that beard.

Oh, really?

No idea.

Okay, we'll talk to him about it.

All right.

Thank you so much.

That's the show, both of you.

Casey, where can listeners find your newsletter?

They can find it at platformer.news or on Twitter at platformer.

And Louis, they can find you at NYU doing your homework, right?

Hopefully.

Yeah, hopefully.

Yeah.

We're going to go.

We're going to go up again.

I'm excited for our little, we're going to take a little driving trip and talk to nobody along the entire way.

Scott will be back next week from wherever he is.

I have no idea.

We'll be back

in a very short prison stint.

We'll be back.

He went to school.

He went to school.

He went to school.

We'll be back to playing listener questions.

So send us questions via yappa at nymag.com/slash pivot.

Thank you for joining me, Louie and Casey.

You're always my favorite.

You really are.

Don't tell somebody.

You're my favorite having me.

Oh, we're all our favorites.

Anyway, I'm going to read us out.

Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis, Ernie Indradott, engineer at this episode.

Thanks also to Hannah Rosen.

Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business.

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