Covid vaccine in the US, Roblox IPO delay, and friend of Pivot Stephanie Ruhle

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Well, hello.

It's Elector Day.

It's Elector Day across the United States.

The Electoral College is convening to cast votes for Joe Biden, who will win.

And

the Trump people still think they're going to win, which is interesting.

Steve Miller said there's going to be an alternate slate of electors.

What alternate universe is that in?

No.

He's probably his friends, the friends he has, of which count zero.

So that's happening, which is great, which hopefully we're getting closer and closer to not having problems here.

But it's going to go down to the wires.

Trump has said he's not going to stop, but I think we need to start ignoring him absolutely and completely.

So I'm going to move on for Russian hackers.

Actually, they're complaining about a fraudulent and hacked election.

Russian hackers are actually believed to have hacked into small systems, email systems at the Department of Treasury and Commerce over the course of months, undetected.

It's possible other departments, as well as private companies, have been hacked as well.

So this is the actual

rigging and hacking going on by the Russians, which was disclosed

this weekend.

At the same time, Google went down

for a short time last night.

So a lot.

going on.

What do you make of this?

Well, if you think about, at the end of the day, the president or our elected officials are managers, and all managers are supposed to do is allocate capital to a greater return than

capital that's allocated by competitive managers or managers of competitive organizations.

And so, if you think about the leadership in other organizations and where they're allocating capital relative to where we're allocating capital, I think Russia is outplaying us and that Russia's figured out that, okay,

you have the U.S.

that spends 10 times, that spends more on their military, conventional military, aircraft carriers,

planes, tanks, than the next 10 nations combined.

We just can't compete.

And we would like them to compete with us.

We would like them to build aircraft carriers, but they've decided that's a bad waste of money.

So they're overinvesting in cyber warfare.

And we, I mean, if you really think about our capital allocation, we spent $700 billion on the military, somewhere between $6 and $12 billion on the CDC.

And I don't know what we spend on cybersecurity, but I would imagine that relative to the threat, our management isn't allocating capital as efficiently as Russia.

Because if Russia can weaponize Facebook and at a minimum, decrease the sanctity of our elections, if they can tap into federal agencies and create a level of security and create a level, it makes us look bad.

It just makes our brand look kind of weak.

It's just this, they're not doing their job.

They're not, you're absolutely, they're managers who are not doing their jobs and instead are putting up fake, you know, focused on, one, focused not on COVID, focus two, not on Russian, the actual threats to our democracy is things like this.

And it's really, I mean, the ease of the

the especially now that we're so dependent on on these technologies, it's really amazing how badly this administration has managed.

Well, not only that, though, but there's an algebra of deterrence.

And unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where I don't think there's a huge

this is like an invasion.

This is an assault on our

and on the homeland.

And I think the Biden administration needs to be very thoughtful and coordinate with the Secretary of Defense and our allies and pick up.

They're going to come down hard.

Well, they're doing.

We got to do more than that.

We got to find a city, a satellite city or something

in Russia or something of strategic interest.

And we need to shut it off like a fucking light switch.

We do.

Well, you know.

If you're going to continue to do this, we're going to start hitting back.

Well, they know we're better at this than Trump.

They know Trump isn't going to do anything.

Well, that's my point.

There's no outer rib deterrence here.

There's no fear of reprisal.

I like that.

All right.

Speaking of algebra, it's not really algebraic.

Disney's Investor Day presentation late last week showed the company moving even further into streaming.

They quietly, while Jason Kylar is taking all the arrows.

I listened to your interview with Jason.

Yeah.

That guy's good.

He is good, but he's still, they're coming at him, all the Hollywood people.

Well, first off, he's a tall politician.

He's totally full of shit.

He outright lied twice.

Oh, movie theaters are great.

We still, I still love going to movies.

Yeah, he just put a fucking steak through their heart.

And then, like, HBO Max, no, we're actually doing quite well.

HBO Max has been a fucking disaster.

Yeah, I'm not going to give him a job.

He's very good.

He should run for Senate.

That guy's going to be a good idea.

In any case, Disney, meanwhile, is doing a lot of the same stuff, but quietly in a relationship-y way.

The shares have doubled since March.

How is their content strategy different from what Jason is doing?

I think Jason's doing their work for them, the spade work for them.

Oh, gosh.

I mean, this, God, this is so gangster.

If you think about all strategy, it comes down to one question.

Oh, really?

What can we do that is really hard?

What can we do that is so hard everyone else has a tough time doing it?

And here's the thing: with a $20 billion original content budget, it's very hard to do a better job of original content.

And I would bet the next quote-unquote queen's gambit original stories that have never been told before will likely come from Netflix or maybe even HBO Max.

But what can Disney do?

Disney can say, you know what, we spent $100 billion buying these franchises called Pixar, called Lucasfilm, called Marvel.

And what are we going to do?

We're going to spin up six series.

What can Netflix not do, even if they spend $50 billion in original content?

They can't have this amazing mini-series on a young Lando Calrissian.

They can't start,

oh, gosh, it's such an amazing character introduced that Rosario Dawson is going to play.

They can't have, they're spinning up, they're going going to spin up literally every other week a new franchise adjunct from Mandalorian.

Let me ask you

Star Wars Avengers.

You'll be very happy, Jason, which they have a lot of IP.

One of the things he talked about a lot was the amount of IP they had.

Dragons, everything, everything Game of Thrones.

They have a lot more than that.

They've got a ton of Prince of Dorn.

They've got a lot.

Prince of Dorn, baddest bisexual in the world.

And granted, I don't know a ton of bisexuals, but he sets the bar.

You probably do.

He sets the bar.

Actually, you're right, I probably do.

You probably do.

But here's the deal.

He definitely, I mean, he was talking about using like a lot of their assets and the fact that they hadn't been used.

And so I think you're going to see a lot of that.

The question is whether he's pissed off holidays.

I think those holiday people will go wherever the money is, honestly.

They're

righteousness.

Although, I talked to Ben Smith about it.

He was like right in the middle.

I was like,

they didn't call them.

Too bad.

They bought the stuff.

They can do whatever they would.

I'm sorry.

Newsflash.

This just in.

Christopher Nolan and the head of CAA, who make $30 to $50 million a year off the the existing film industrial complex, think change is a bad idea.

Shocker.

Shocker.

And you know what?

All these guys will absolutely go with the next dollar.

The notion that somehow...

I was like, I wasn't called.

It's like, so what?

Like, who cares?

Like, years ago, let me tell you, years ago, when

AOL bought Time Warner and Ted Turner got all his knickers in a knot later, first he said it was the best thing since sex, and then he said he didn't like it.

I recall, I think it it was Barry Diller.

He's like, You sold your house.

They can do whatever the fuck they want to it.

They can put a shitty hattio on it.

They can tear it down.

They can, you so you shouldn't have sold it.

If you were so mad, don't sell your house.

And to me, they're not.

There's more nuance here because they have back-end deals largely dependent upon groceries.

They're going to have to, they're going to have to pull out their checkbooks and say, okay, you weren't expecting this is a different model.

They'll come, they'll be settled by lawyers.

Yep.

But it's literally like JCPenney saying, Amazon is a terrible shopping experience.

It's just, it's just, okay, really?

True, but.

All right, we're going to get on.

We are with Holland.

By the way, you realize we're effectively dictating Disney's strategy at this point.

Who six months ago said Disney needed to go full Rundle?

Who said this six months ago?

You did, Scott.

That's right.

Thank you.

Okay, Scott, big stories.

The COVID-19 vaccine is officially being distributed in the United States.

We're going to talk about this with Stephanie Rule later because she just had COVID.

The first person to receive the vaccine in the U.S.

was an ICU nurse in New York.

I love that.

I thought that was lovely.

I like this whole public having it of it.

I really think it's great.

Across the country, 145 sites were set to receive the vaccine on Monday, 425 on Tuesday, and 66 on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, major airlines, including United and JetBlue, are introducing an app called Common Pass that will verify passengers' COVID status.

They should have done this a long time ago.

The app will then issue confirmation codes enabling passengers to board certain international flights.

It's just the start of a push for digital COVID credentials as people start receiving the vaccine.

What do you think of the United States distribution plan is getting criticized, largely because we didn't order enough?

And who could step in and streamline it?

How is it going to be?

It's going to be months and months.

And meanwhile, Bill Gates is saying it's going to be until 2022, mid-2022 before anything's normal.

Others say much earlier.

What is your feelings?

There's so many things to unpack here.

First and foremost, this is really, really exciting and wonderful in terms of

what makes us human in terms of cooperation and having a disproportionate brain so large we have to be expelled from our mother early.

You know, this is our superpower as a species, and vaccines represent our superpower.

And so it's very exciting.

It's also, there's some very scary things here.

What's going to happen under the auspices of vaccine?

A lot of people are going to loosen their behavior.

We're going to see record death.

We're going to see record death during the vaccine as it's distributed.

We're going to see a lot of selfish behavior, specifically people deciding to wait because they have these fucked up, non-scientific, non-data-driven fears around this vaccine, which just is total, it's nonsense.

And we need to dispel, we need to, we need to.

We need to dispel people of the notions, or we need to outline what are the real risks here.

And it's something similar to not being eaten by a shark or struck by lightning, but being struck by lightning while you're being eaten by a shark.

We need, I'm really fearful that if the distribution doesn't take as long, doesn't go as expeditiously as it should,

that we are going to have record deaths under the auspices of the cold comfort of a vaccine.

I actually believe, I disagree with Bill Gates.

I actually think we're going to be able to get it if you want it sooner than you think for bad reasons.

I think a lot of people are going to decide to hold back for six or 12 months.

Which isn't

the wrong decision.

So, this is credential validation.

It's interesting.

Vaccine validation.

What do you think?

I think I would like,

I am of mixed, as you might imagine, but I do think you do get validated for a lot of other things.

You know, when you, I have, I vaccinate my kids.

You need to turn it in before you go to school, before they go to school, all kinds of vaccines, and I'm okay with that.

I don't mind if it's done privately, validation of the.

places that you could spread COVID.

Yes, I'm kind of for that.

I'm kind of like, yeah, because it's done in other places all the time.

Like, you know, herpes or if you have

a communicable disease, that's communicated.

I think this is a public health issue.

And I think it's quite different.

If it can be done in a private way, share it with the right people.

Sure.

Sure.

We need a passport and your identity

to travel abroad.

If you live in Texas, the Republican governor made it law that people have, youth have HPV vaccines to go to certain public schools all over America.

Shit, to go to certain countries, you need vaccines.

Of course, you do.

At MIT, if you're a student, you have to be tested every week or you can't get into the university buildings.

Yeah.

This is

public health.

And also, by the way, a lot of the stories of people going to Europe, they get totally tested and they get totally checked and everything else.

And here, you can wander around and do whatever you want and cough on people.

So I think it's, we're just doing a disservice to our economy by doing, by behaving like this.

And it just continues.

This weekend, we had all the proud boys here in D.C.

coughing on everybody,

you know, and beating people up, which is just, you know, just

the worst people on the planet, I think.

No, they're not the worst, but they're among the worst.

And so I think that people still will have this disdain.

They're going to be proud all the way to their graves is what they're going to be, proud in their whatever, I don't even know what to call it, but I do think people should be.

If you were a company, you know,

people cannot come into the office unless they've been vaccinated or had proof of antibodies.

I just think it's just safe.

It's just public safety.

Public safety.

In terms of distribution, you and I talk about this.

I don't understand.

I think Jeff Bezos and Doug McMillan and UPS and FedEx, I think all five of them should get together with Joe Biden and say, our firms, our workforce are at your disposal.

And not to have a fake.

Remember that fake press conference?

Doug McMillan was at that Trump press conference where he was coughing on everybody, the same one, where nobody was wearing masks, which was just the worst matches of all time.

So I do think you're right.

I hopefully they have a plan.

I think the people involved with Biden have done this before.

So perhaps they will.

And, you know, Fauci is now doing like a little victory dance everywhere because he's going with Biden.

He's riding with Biden and now is not in fear of being fired, obviously.

So I think it'll be interesting to see how

you don't want them to overreach at the same time, given all the sensitivities now, but I do think a really firm hand throughout this vaccination process is critical.

It's critical.

All right, Scott, let's go to a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk Roblox delaying its IPO and friend of pivot Stephanie Ruhl on her experience with COVID-19 and the economy.

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Scott, we're back.

Roblox, the popular video gaming company, is delaying its IPO until 2021 after last week's market burst with Airbnb and DoorDash's IPOs.

The company's co-founder and chief executive, David Bazucki, announced the decision, saying that waiting provided, quote, an opportunity to improve our specific process for employees, shareholders, and future investors, both big and small.

Roblox has exploded in popularity since the beginning of the pandemic, especially among children.

It averaged 31.1 million daily active users in the first nine months of 2020, up 82% from a year earlier.

So, is this a good move for the company?

So, simply put, mind blown.

I mean,

when was the last time you heard of an IPO pulling because the market was too strong?

Yeah.

IPOs get pulled because they're worried they're not going to get enough money.

This is a company.

And this is, first off, Roblox.

Of all the IPOs I was excited about,

of all the IPOs I would have thought would have gone not only crazy on day one, but actually sustained a one-year gain.

Because let's be honest, rich white people have figured out a way to capture all the gains, right?

When Google went public, it went public at like a $2 or $3 billion market cap.

So that run-up, if it was going,

if Google was around now, the private investors, the institutional investors, would wait.

Companies used to take three years, successful companies to go public.

Now they take seven, such that the institutional people people can capture more of the upside.

So what you have is, I mean, income inequality gone crazy, but if there was one stock I thought was undervalued, even going into this crazy environment, it was Roblox.

Some stats on Roblox.

The number of people, daily active users, as a percentage of their total monthly active users has gone from 18 to 24%.

They pay a third of their revenues out to creators.

No one creator has more than, I think, 10%.

They have over 50% of kids under the age of 16 have been on Roblox in the last 30 days.

I think Roblox is arguably the most.

So explain the delay.

Why?

Because this is only going to be a $3 billion.

So if you look at Airbnb, it was $30 billion, raising $3 billion.

And everyone's like, oh, they left so much money on the table.

Yeah, okay, but they only took 10% of their float out, meaning that the additional dilution they took was about 5%.

In other words, they didn't float the entire $30 billion valuation of the company.

They floated $3 billion of it.

So the fact that the stock doubled, doubled, everyone cries, well, they left a ton of money on the table.

Yeah, okay, they did.

That's true.

But at the same time, they got this huge branding event, huge momentum, real excitement.

It was on the front page.

So these things are now becoming sort of branding events.

Now, if a stock doubles, first off, the number of stocks that doubled in 2000 from their IPO in 2019 was like two, and it averages one to three a year.

This year, there's been 11 already.

So we've never seen an IPO market like this.

So you do leave some money on the table.

Now, when you talk about Roblox, which is going out at a valuation of around $3 billion and raising $300 or $400 million, they were literally setting up a scenario.

This thing could have gone out three or this thing could have popped 30 or 400% on the first trade.

This is a juggernaut.

This is arguably the most influential company for people in this age of 16.

And here's the thing.

This is why it's different than Facebook, which is arguably the most influential company.

It's not a menace.

They are spending a ton of time on safety.

They are giving parents a certain level of confidence that, okay, you're not going to radicalize my young boy or you're not going to create teen depression among my young girl.

They are reviewing tens of millions of pieces of content.

I went through their S1.

They mentioned the word safety 16 times.

They talk about parental.

I mean, they are, and not only that, they talk, I mean, this company is just so fucking gangster.

79% of their full-time staff are engineers.

They're more of a tech company than Google.

They're more of a tech company than Splunk or Palantir.

I mean, this is a a true tech company.

And they've said, all right,

let's try and share the wealth with our content creators.

And let's try and create a safe platform such that we pretend we actually have kids or that we give a good goddamn about other people's kids.

The revenues, the market is...

Like yourself from Robux.

All right.

Well, so.

Well, you know what else?

Just one more thing.

Yes, go ahead.

One more thing.

The market was missing.

They were saying, oh, it lost a bunch of money.

People prepay for Robux.

So it's negative working capital.

The free cash flow on this thing is gangster.

So if there was ever an IPO I wanted in on, it was this thing.

And these can be.

This is a good move.

This is a good move.

Well, they basically pulled back and said, maybe it's not $3 billion.

Maybe it's $10 billion.

Right.

So let's just say that.

But this just shows how the narrative has totally taken control of the numbers.

We've never seen an IPO market like this.

Yeah.

So are you worried?

Are you worried about that?

Am I worried about what?

The IPO market, with Airbnb and DoorDash.

Oh, there are canaries everywhere.

The problem is trying to time the market.

The problem is The Economist basically perfectly depicted the meltdown of the dot-bomb.

The problem is they called it in 1997 and the market went up another 60%.

It's just, it's your greed glands versus your fear, right?

How would you play it?

Give me one quick tip.

Oh, if you can get into any of these, I would try and get into them, but I would also diversify like crazy and hedge stuff.

I just think,

you know, and obviously it depends when you get in, but let's be honest, there's just no getting around it.

This is another point in the line that is income inequality because more and more of the gains are being captured by private, by people whose money is managed by Goldman, institutional investors, the VCs.

And by the time the retail investor gets access, Airbnb is already worth more than the next five hospitality companies combined.

Yeah, I had a friend who's like, I got in at 160.

I was like, oh.

Yeah, careful.

I didn't know what to say.

I said, I don't know.

I don't do stocks, so I don't know.

It's very, it's a very worrisome time agreed okay let's move on to our favorite friend of pivot

stephanie rule who is always he's she's more than a friend of pivot she's a friend of mine too and the scots um anyway stephanie let's talk about you know she's obviously an msnbc anchor and nbc senior business correspondent but she also is a

a survivor of covet what do you want to call yourself what is the uh somebody recovering from covet i would say So tell me about, tell me about what happened.

And I want to talk about, you talked about the experience with COVID on your show.

How are you feeling, first of all?

And you tell us how you think about the virus differently now.

I would say I know I don't have the virus in me anymore.

And I know that because I'm a lucky girl who has great, great doctors who can tell me that.

But what I have felt more than anything is this overwhelming sense of confusion, not really knowing how I'm doing.

You know, you get past your 14 days and if you still feel lousy, can you be around anyone?

Even understanding how quarantine works, how being contagious works.

And I'll tell you, you, my friend, kept saying to me, take this thing seriously.

Because I think a lot of people, even when they get a positive COVID diagnosis, they're assuming this is a disaster and I'm going to need to go to a hospital.

Just because you don't have to go to a hospital doesn't mean A, you're not super contagious and B, it doesn't mean you're sick.

You're not sick.

So while I don't have the virus in me, I can tell you I have never been this exhausted, and that has me worried.

I don't know how long it's going to take to sort of get back to myself.

Yeah, what we're trying to underscore is we're not celebrities like Rudy Giuliani, that we get to go into the hospital, get the very latest, because there are some treatments that work rather well now.

They've sort of gotten very good at dealing with people who are not extraordinarily sick.

But that's what amazes me more about President Trump than Giuliani.

I would have thought after Trump had it, he would have A,

empathy would have kicked in for him.

He doesn't have that.

Well, okay, but if he were a normal person, empathy would have kicked in and he would have realized, look at this unbelievable care I got.

Look at these doctors.

Look at all these answers I got.

Imagine what this is like for the rest of the world.

Because let me tell you, that is what overwhelmed me for the two weeks when I was sitting home.

But even if it wasn't empathy, I don't understand on the other side how the president didn't have sheer brutal political instinct to say, oh my God, this is impacting this entire country.

What do I do now that I've experienced COVID, knowing what this is like?

What do I do to say, I'm sorry, America, I didn't realize what this was like.

Time to really do something.

I don't understand how after Trump having this, he still stayed on the path of quasi-denial.

And to me, because he said, I got over it.

Suck it up, Sally.

That's really, I think, the.

Yes, because for him, he and the White House get rapid COVID tests every single time they walk into a room, having no understanding of how brutal it is to even get a test, then get your test results.

And then when you do and they're contradictory, people are like, oh, well, that test wasn't that great.

Trump doesn't have to experience any of that.

Right.

So what do you, when you, when you look back at it, having had it, and I'm glad you're feeling better, but you're still going to have repercussions.

What do you, how do you, people have sort of, I've had this sort of magical answer of vaccine.

It's always, and I think we had Michael Mino on the other day, and he's talked about the idea that it's as if, you know, London was getting bombed and they said the F-22 is coming or, you know what I mean?

And not doing anything else to protect from bombs, essentially, until we're waiting for the magical vaccine to kick in.

To me, the abject failure of our government, which has crushed us from a health and economic perspective, is testing.

Just think about this, Kara.

The minute you, technically, as soon as you know you have exposure, you're supposed to quarantine.

Most people cannot afford, lots of people can't afford to quarantine or they're unwilling to do it or they think they're quarantined.

Isolating means you are around no one for 14 days.

People aren't really doing that.

But if we had, I can tell you, when I actually, I was never officially contact traced by the government, but when I went and made calls to contact trace myself, people don't want to take your call.

We know from COVID, if you wash your hands, wear a mask, you're socially distant, we're lowering the risk you get it.

But if you do get it, the answer is quarantine.

So if they had done anything around testing, we should be at a place now where you have an app on your phone where you can see if you're positive or negative.

And that will

change the decision you make whether or not you walk out of the front of your house.

My entire family.

Or you're not allowed to.

Like in Taiwan, they had a cooperative system, but it was quite strict.

It's like they fined you if you did that.

And they kept people in hotels.

They had a really great system of feeding them and keeping them in hotels.

And they had almost no, and they stayed open.

They stayed open.

And listen, would I have liked to have gone to a hotel for two weeks or my husband?

I wouldn't have liked it, but I absolutely would have gone because at the very least, the stress and pressure you're under, how complicated it is to actually quarantine.

had the privilege that I have enough spaces and people in my life to help me quarantine.

Most people don't have that privilege.

And our government is basically saying, do the right thing.

And we're giving you nothing to help you do that.

Right.

So to me, if we would have sorted out testing, we could have schools and businesses open.

Technically, Kara, I could have gone into any store on any day when I had COVID because I never had a fever.

My kids quarantined for the amount of time.

They didn't technically have to get a test.

My kids would have gone into three different schools and infected all three schools.

They only got a test because my employer mailed me an at-home test at the end of it.

Which is amazing.

So how do you think the vaccine will immediately affect the U.S.

economy?

Let's get into the economy now that we've already done the damage, the unnecessary damage, by the way.

I mean, listen, things are going to open back up, right?

There's enormous pent-up demand.

It's not like we're not spending money.

Everybody keep, when you look at the stock market, one of the reasons so many big public businesses are doing so well is because that's where we're spending money.

Look at DoorDash, okay?

Once the economy opens back up we're not going to need door dash door dash had one of the most phenomenal ipos out there why because we need to have our food delivered because we can't go into restaurants right you're going to see a good portion of that reverse and it's very sad because all of these big business and remember door dash takes a cut from your favorite little local restaurant where you're ordering from.

So while people are saying, oh, the stock market's doing so well, part of the fuel that's pushing the stock market up is the lifeblood of American small business that's dying at this moment.

Right, right.

Now, when you talk, think about that, the impact, what do you see in the short term, the medium term, and the long term for the economy?

You know, Scott, Scott, our Scott often says, like, listen, help people, not businesses.

And I completely get that.

However,

We are going to lose.

We already have over 100,000 small businesses.

That's not going to change.

And if you think about so many of those jobs in sort of the hospitality industry, they're not coming back anytime soon.

On a big level, things that I don't see coming back right away, let's be honest, corporate travel.

Do you really think we're going to get right back to the everybody flying to this meeting, flying to that meeting, rushing to every possible conference out there?

You don't need to.

You realize you don't need to.

I'm so glad.

I always hated traveling.

And so now I think people are going to travel, but not nearly as much as they did.

Because

if you run a corporation, you may have figured out that your business can survive with everybody working from home, but lots of businesses have had a huge loss in productivity and they're not thriving.

And a waste, they are going to keep costs down.

They're not going to bring back lots of travel.

And lots of us have, lots of executives have a lot less support than we once did.

And that's probably going to stay for a while.

I think you're going to see low-level people not get jobs back.

Meanwhile, New York is shutting, speaking of people who are struggling, New York is shutting down indoor dining, but we still don't have a new federal relief packages for small business and workers and individuals.

How does this play out?

You have, you know, Nancy, I don't even understand what's happening.

It just is so confusing.

I don't even understand it.

And it's, you know, last week.

You cover it.

I do, but, you know, last week I was interviewing Bernie Sanders and It ended up, I ended up infuriating him.

He called me after the show and told me how angry he was.

And while I thought we settled things, the Bernie bro swarm has been attacking me ever since.

And I was just trying to make the argument to him, they've got to find a middle ground.

Like, Kara, in business.

He's blocking.

He's been blocking.

In business,

you and I could hate one another's guts.

But if we work together, every day we have to find some sort of middle ground because we need our company to make money or otherwise we're all going to lose our jobs.

Somehow in politics, they don't do that.

I'm not trying to dog on the Heroes Act.

The Heroes Act is beautiful.

But if all you're going to do is get Congress to vote to pass it, you can put that in your pipe and smoke it.

It means nothing.

Like you might say, I hate Mitch McConnell's guts.

He's the worst person on earth.

Great, super, fantastic.

But if you want to get something done, if Republicans or Democrats want to get something done for all the people and the businesses in their states, and it's not just blue states suffering, red states are suffering too.

You've got to figure out how to play ball.

So, where do you see?

How is it going to play ball?

What was your issue with Bernie Sanders so he can get more Bernie bros on you?

So, so I had, and I didn't, I honestly didn't mean to be sassy with him.

Oh, it's okay, He can take it.

That crusty man.

He was coming on MSNBC to talk about

that he's pushing this idea for $1,200.

I love that idea.

I want that.

All the support, all the stimulus, bring it on.

But I said to him, Great, I understand what your plan is.

He's obviously been talking about it.

He's going on MSNBC talking about it.

Great.

So what is MSNBC audience going to do?

Say, Amen, hallelujah.

What is, I asked him, Great, what Republican senators do you have on board to vote for this?

And then I said something that maybe was too sassy.

And I said,

You've won the hearts and minds of millions of American people.

And he has.

And I said, But you know, you haven't had enormous success over the last 30 years getting a lot of your initiatives made into law.

Do you need to change another lane?

And I wasn't saying, do you need to want something else?

But what I'm saying is, do you need to figure out a different way to get Republicans to work with you?

We're in crisis.

This isn't like a philosophical debate about what kind of health care you think we should have in a perfect world.

People are dying.

People are losing their homes.

What are we going to do right now to get both groups that hate each other to find a way to vote together?

Right.

Yeah.

And that's and of course, like the Bernie Swarm.

Oh, essentially, he thought you were telling him he did nothing for years.

I think that's what he probably did.

Yes.

And

the Bernie Swarm is saying, you are a corporate hack.

You're not somebody who even wants to help people.

I do want to help people.

But I'm just saying, I think we have to get brutally practical here to get something done.

In the business world, you don't get to be idealistic.

That's how you grow out of business.

All right.

So what, so speaking of which, I, you know, hard-hearted Stephanie Ruhl and the nice, soft, squishy Bernie, he's such a good guy.

Anyway, what do you, what do you imagine is going to happen in the short, long term?

We've seen this crazy

IPOs from Airbnb, DoorDash, et cetera.

The

stock market looks great.

You can't tell whether it's thrilled that Trump lost or or that Trump is taking credit for it.

What do you see the medium, the short term and then the long term?

What are the things people have to focus on coming out of this?

I am very worried about political will here.

Just think about people you know, Kara, in the spring.

We're willing to lock down.

We're a lot more afraid of COVID.

Now the COVID numbers are worse than ever.

The people aren't nearly as disciplined when it comes to locking down.

That's true.

Wealthy people are looking at the stock market.

they're enjoying working from home, and they're basically figuring workarounds.

Because if you are somebody who really is vulnerable, you know you can get the Giuliani or the Trump treatment and you'll be okay.

And if you're somebody who's privileged but not at risk like they are, you think you might get COVID like I did, get sick, but not in a devastating way.

And so I'm worried that we're losing some much-needed political will that maybe

we'll see solved

come January 20th.

But between now and January 20th, lives, livelihoods, homes, people are losing by the day.

Shoplifting is going up in this country, Tara.

Shoplifting for baby formula and diapers.

Right, right, right.

Now, Scott has returned from wherever, whence he came from

shoplifting, probably

or package theft.

That's his other side job.

Scott, we've been talking about Stephanie's illness and where the economy is going, but she hasn't gotten into the Biden administration.

Why don't you start and ask a question or two since I'm carrying your water since whatever you are?

Well, I'm just curious.

First off, Stephanie, I mean this even more than usual.

It is wonderful to see you.

Thank you.

And my obviously best to you and your family, and I love the work you're doing.

So my question is, just as you have, this is, I would assume, one of the bigger health scares you and your family have faced, even if it's more of an existential one than actual threat to your health, because you're all fairly young and fairly healthy.

And I know there's an X factor here, but

have you thought at all about how you think this will change the way that health care is delivered or that you will consume health care?

If we don't walk away from this as an urgent need to address health inequity in this country, then we have no leadership.

Right?

I'm the luckiest girl in the world who has access to all sorts of support and I could barely get a test and I really couldn't get test results.

If we don't look at this, if we don't get to the back of this and say, why is it that the poorest people in this country got sick and died, why don't they have access to doc?

I mean, it's crazy.

When I would sit, when I walked into NYU hospital on Friday to get checked,

I thought about, look at all of these healthcare workers, the 40 people I saw cleaning the building, every doctor, every nurse, and what are we doing for them?

How are we honoring health care in this country?

And I'm not saying the answer is Medicare for all, but the answer on the heels of this has to be, is there a way to refocus how we look at healthcare in terms of people before insurance companies?

And that's what we've got to do.

Right.

Because even from an economic perspective, right?

You get the COVID test and it's free, or you get the vaccine and it's free.

We're not saving money.

We are spending an enormous amount of money because we didn't figure out testing.

Had we figured out accurate, broad, rapid testing, many, many people and businesses would be back at work and there'd be more people alive today because loads of people have COVID and don't know they have it because there are people like me who could

kind of go to work or lots of other people convince themselves they don't have COVID because they can't afford not to go to work.

Those people are all super spreaders.

My question is: if MSNBC can figure out a way to disperse your studio and Rockefeller Center to your cottage in New Jersey, shouldn't we be able to distribute that NYU urgent care?

I don't know if it was the EAR or just or just, shouldn't they be able to disperse it to your home?

Isn't there just a huge opportunity to get off our heels and onto our toes with healthcare and push it out, if you will?

There is a huge opportunity, right?

In theory, I didn't need to ever go to a doctor.

Like, I didn't, right?

My employer sent me a test at home, which I put in a FedEx and I mailed and got the results.

My employer did that.

We could do it in a bigger way.

We don't need to be necessarily people who aren't super sick, but people who have something, people, we can be doing Teladoc appointments.

We can be getting these things, right?

If you would have said to me a year ago, we're going to do Teladoc appointments when my kids were sick, I would be like, never.

I need that doctor to see my child and touch my child.

No, you don't.

And you can see

millions more people if you are banging it out, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang over Zoom.

Well, the only thing is, you know, you talk about this, everybody suddenly realizing it.

You know, I just interviewed the Secretary of State of Georgia and he was like, well, I got death threats.

I'm like, you know, Stacey Abrams has been getting for years.

Like, now you get it.

Now you get it.

Do you think it actually sticks with people, you know, once they get back to their comfort land?

I think that's the best question, right?

It's like, I remember when I was in college and I spent a semester studying in Kenya.

And before I came home, you know, writing the letters to my parents, like, I don't want any more material goods.

I don't want you to send me a Christmas present ever.

Nothing.

Like, I, all I want to do is, is give to the poor.

That's what I'm devoting my life to.

And then I came home the week before Christmas.

And then on Christmas Eve, I was like, hey, so what do you think you're going to get me for Christmas tomorrow?

I mean,

Experiencing horrific things gives us perspective.

But if we are foolish enough to think, oh my God, this was the wake-up call we needed to change the way we deliver medicine, to change the way we govern, it's not.

But we have to figure out a way.

We collectively have experienced COVID.

How can we as a country use this perspective to come together and do some level of good?

And Scott, I think you're coming from a place where you're saying from a business perspective, how can we deliver health care?

Yeah, there are enormous business opportunities before us.

The question is, are people going to pick them up and run with them?

The probability is that.

Let's talk Biden then.

Let's talk Biden then because he's going to be in charge.

Despite legislation, he still has a lot of power.

What are you looking forward to given the selections he's made economically, et cetera?

I mean, so far, Biden has chosen pretty non-controversial experts.

And that's what we need, right?

We need a steady group of experts.

And Biden himself said, I'm not going to be your radical leader.

I'm going to be your bridge president.

And I think now,

even more than 10 months ago,

you see an enormous amount of American people say, that's what we need.

We need to get back on our feet again.

And one thing I do hope they really look at in their first 100 days beyond COVID, how many times have we said in the last four years, Trump is breaking norms.

This is out of protocol.

They shouldn't be doing this.

But technically, they were allowed to do lots and lots of things.

So all the things that everybody set their hair on fire over the last four years that we said was breaking the norms and totally corrupt and they shouldn't be doing it,

when Trump would be blowing his nose with subpoenas.

Figure out what that long list of things are and close all those loopholes in your first hundred days.

Because, guess what?

Just because Trump isn't president anymore, he may have just given every future potential autocrat the playbook for here's how you do it.

Right.

Right?

A lot of Trump appointees, not a lot, some Trump appointees are still going to be in their jobs, right?

You've got

Postmaster General, he's still going to be in his job.

In the next three weeks, you've got the Trump administration still appointing Trump people to really important posts.

If you think these guys are going away, they're not.

They're staying around.

They're finding ways to cash in.

And if they did it in ways that were unethical, then time to change the law.

All three of us spent a lot of time after 08 hearing people say, and we said, man, there were some really bad actors in the banking industry.

Like they should go to jail.

None of them went to jail because technically they didn't do anything illegal.

So everybody should get their outrage notebook back, say what were the things that were the most egregious, the most outrageous, and change the rules so they don't happen again.

Stephanie, COVID put you on Fuego.

I don't know.

What do you think about with that?

I think I will see.

I think we'll go right back to comfort zone.

I think you're going to, I'm going to ask what I'm getting for Christmas, or America is going to ask after pretending it cares.

It's going to ask you.

Everything.

You're more cynical than me, which is strange.

I'm curious, sort of the game of thrones around media companies in terms of how they intersect with politics and the change in politics.

You have the Trump administration raising, or Trump raising a quarter of a billion dollars to develop sort of what looks like a shadow presidency.

But his typical front or propaganda machine for

news corps has new threats.

There's some notion that once the Trump show goes away and we have the pleasure of not thinking about the president maybe once but every two weeks, that

a lot of networks will suffer.

How do you see things shifting in the kind of the Game of Thrones that is media or political media?

Then, Scott, let us short-term suffer and dig deep and do some homework and provide better content.

If the best we are is

reality TV diving into the freak show every day, if that's the only way we know how to get people to watch television, then maybe we don't deserve the big bucks.

Maybe I don't deserve the big bucks.

I'd like to think I don't get them.

But I'm saying, yes, people love to tune in to car crashes, but we as a country have gotten dumber and weaker in our priorities.

Let's find a way to be better, Scott.

You're a business person.

I mean, you come to the city.

Yeah, but so what are you going to cover?

The news every day, policy.

Okay, here's a perfect example.

I'm not really covering Trump lawsuits in a very big way.

And somebody called me this weekend and complained about that to me somebody who kind of revels in the drama of it and from my silly simple girl perspective donald trump is a lame duck president right the last two months of the obama administration barack obama could barely get a big headline nobody was paying attention they were on to the next thing and for me everything i make my goal is how do i help people get better and smarter covering president trump sitting on his desk crying and whining this isn't fair i'm still the president is not my priority And if people are thick enough that they want to mail him a check to raise money for this nonsense fight to say he won, that's their own prerogative.

But as long as that's not my tax dollars, I'm moving on.

My question was more around.

So if you think there's a dispersion of healthcare bypassing hospitals and doctors' offices going to smart cameras and handhelds, if Star Wars is moving to Disney Plus and your living rooms, if you think about really fantastic content that covers news and politics, it feels feels like at some point there's going to be a dispersion, that it's either going to go behind a paywall.

Let me ask it a different way.

If you were to pair with two fantastic

journalists or news people and

start a brand new company, what would that company look like?

It would be Cara, Scott, Stephanie.

Go on.

And maybe my boyfriend, Andrew Russorkin, and

throw a little sports in the mix.

I don't know.

I think

I don't know the answer to that.

I think that because we deliver so much content for so many hours,

we probably don't need to do that, right?

I think if you just delivered the smartest, best things in a more concise manner, less is more, then you'd get more bang for your buck, right?

If I was an advertiser, like what hour is it of the,

I mean, there's just so much out there that is not of high value.

What if we offered less hours and just offered good, provocative stuff?

That's a great idea.

Speaking of which, my last question, so we got to go, Stephanie.

The whole thing, Hollywood thing going on with Jason Kyler, I did a big interview with him, obviously.

There's been lots of stories about him.

What, how do you look at this, this sort of explosion by Hollywood?

What do you mean?

About

putting movies online, you know, speaking.

Listen,

from a personal perspective, I love it.

I love being home.

I love to be with my family.

Right, this Saturday night was the best Saturday night I've had in ages.

I watched my favorite Christmas movie, Love Actually, with my three kids.

I didn't miss going to parties.

I've never really liked actually going to the movies.

I like that movie.

It's great.

It's like permission.

No, because it's all about sleeping with a help.

But go ahead.

Go ahead.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Oh, my God.

It's great.

It's literally like, yes,

yes, white man, you can sleep with a help.

But okay, go ahead.

Come on.

No, everybody's left without a picture.

There are scenes from Heathrow Airport.

Just take it apart.

Just take a look at it.

I watched prom.

I watched prom.

That's what I watched, which was great.

What other content have you been consuming?

I think this is really important.

A lot of time at home.

What does Stephanie roll?

What content have you been doing?

So it's funny to say that because I'm not somebody who watches a lot of TV just because I work in ANI with my kids.

I watched...

Queen's Gambit, obviously worshipped it.

I watched The Undoing, loved it, but I have to say the ending was a little bit predictable for me.

And I was in love with Donald Sutherland in it.

And I watched Industry.

Have you watched Industry?

No.

You and I live that.

We live that.

Yeah.

You know, that show really hit on a lot of very, very true things for those of us who sort of grew up in investment banking and sales and trading.

That show hasn't gotten a lot of attention.

I think it was amazing.

There was a little, either I missed out.

So I'll tell you, when I first got into banking, the advice someone gave me was

don't ever stay out after midnight, don't drink, and don't have sex with anybody at work.

And I obviously married somebody who I worked with, so I missed that third one.

But man, that show has so much sex and drugs in it that yeah, that was Scott's experience.

Yeah, all three of those is like check, check, check.

It's girls.

It's girls meets billions.

It's really, if you were in the investment banking analyst program in the 90s, except it's in London.

It's really, it's, it's, I know, I think it's great.

I did none of this, and I behaved beautifully, let me just say

some of the people.

Right, here we go.

Here we go.

Seven wives, harem,

sultan of Subaru here.

Yeah, right.

All right, we have to go, Stephanie.

If you weren't you, you'd be horrified by you.

Listen to me.

Listen to me.

Listen to me.

Stephanie, we truly appreciate it.

We want you to get better.

Do not overestimate the impact of this.

Many of my friends have had it, and there are repercussions from it that continue.

I'm going to leave you all and take a nap right now.

Take a nap.

How much do we love Stephanie Rawl?

We love Stephanie Rollins.

How much do we love Stephanie Rawl?

All right, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Okay, Scott, wins and fails.

There's so many.

There's so many.

Do you want to go first?

I do, because I think you agree with this one.

The Wall Street Journal op-ed section says that Dr.

Jill Biden, the incoming first lady, should drop her doctor title.

That's your win.

Is that your win?

Is that your win?

It's my fail.

You know, Rupert Murdoch is my fail.

I tagged him this weekend.

I got so many likes, which made me feel better.

But, I mean, look, the Wall Street Journal did this incredibly misogynistic thing and also just rude and calling her kiddo and whatever, you know.

And then this, then Paul Gigo, who I know barely was like, oh, it's cancel culture.

No, you just have a shitty take, Paul.

And people said it was shitty.

That was it.

Everyone using this cancel culture excuse, like they didn't, nobody stopped them from publishing it.

Nobody like made them take it down.

Nobody canceled them.

They just said, you're shitty.

That's all.

Like, I want to return to the word cancel culture.

Stop saying it and just take responsibility for your crappy stories, which was crappy.

I'm sorry.

It's just a crappy story.

And calling her kid.

It's just like, it's just shitty.

It's just shitty.

And then the same time, the New York Post, also owned by

Rupert Murdoch, then sort of slut-shamed a woman who was making money on OnlyFans and also was an EMT.

You know, screw them.

Screw them.

She can do whatever she wants.

It's sexy.

Do you have her account?

No.

So, God, as usual.

In any case.

And then

the Rupert Murdoch-owned

Fox News let that, whatever, that idiot in the morning, that idiot who does interviews, they're not even interviews, let President Trump

put, because they're worried about losing people to Newsmax, which they should be,

spew all kinds of nonsense, the false nonsense all over the place.

Just Rupert Murdoch is literally the most dangerous.

You talk about Mark Zuckerberg and we talk about it.

Rupert Murdoch has been the most dangerous.

media figure in history at this moment, I think, one of them.

Thank you.

So this is a big story around the halls of NYU or the virtual halls, right?

Because the majority of my colleagues have a PhD, they have a doctorate, and they deserve, they spend three to five years beyond postgraduate work defending their thesis, trying to come up with something original.

They don't get paid a lot, and they are kind of the best and brightest in their field for a moment.

The majority of Nobel Prize winners, the reason they get the Nobel Prize is based on their work, their doctoral work.

So these people deserve to be, they deserve the term doctor.

The question is the context within which they actually use it.

And I think that I think there was a point, a valid point here that unfortunately got well papered over by the fact they acted like assholes trying to make what I thought was somewhat of a valid point, and it's the following.

That in academia,

and I'm going to be clear,

I'm not a doctor.

People oftentimes, Michael Smirgonish last weekend, introduced me as Dr.

Galloway, and I'm like, no, I just have a graduate degree.

I don't have a doctorate.

So they deserve, they deserve that.

Lady Galloway, but there we go.

But here's the thing.

In the context of academia, we don't usually use that title because we want to distinguish ourselves from medical professionals or that we want to let them have that distinction.

So I do think there's some truth that in the context that is Madame-elect Vice President, the broader context, she probably shouldn't refer to herself.

as doctor.

We know she has a doctorate.

I think that's wonderful.

The way they went about it was absolutely asinine and just it just reeked of misogyny.

It's like, would they have said that to a man?

So I think the point is a fair one, that in academia, we don't refer, academics who have PhDs don't refer to themselves, nor do they ask people to call them doctor.

We get it.

But this article was so ham-handed, it just, it just came across as.

Shitty take, shitty take.

There used to be a thing called shitty take in journalism, and this is one of them.

And that we want to, you know, it's fine to say, I've had done shitty takes.

Like, come on, just live it, love it, be it.

Anyway, yours.

Oh, by the way, let me say my win once again is Cobra Kai getting a fourth season.

I'm in.

Oh, I didn't know that.

That's a great win.

I love that show.

There was one, I'm just in the first season.

And I have to say, there's one point when they're about to fight the two original people, which they keep almost fighting all the time.

And they're getting ready to do it.

And then the wife comes out and it's like, are you friggin' kidding me?

And she goes, I'm making breakfast.

And then the blonde, the guy goes, I could eat.

Like, it just is so funny.

It makes me laugh and laugh and laugh.

And they're all, and they played

REO Speedwagon.

So I'm just happy as a clam watching that show.

Anyway, go ahead.

I'm glad they got the fourth season.

I'm going to have Ralph Macchio on sway, I think.

Well, my win and fail is the vaccine, and my fail is the lack of patriotism and science denial and selfishness that people are demonstrated with their general gestalt around the vaccine and if and when they'll take it.

If you think about the science of this vaccine,

two of them are messenger RNA.

One of them actually puts like a traditional vaccine, some of

a hamstrung, diminished form of the virus into you.

The reality is that the number of people who've had adverse reactions to vaccines is just so tiny that almost any activity you can name presents bigger risks.

In addition, the substance that they are actually introducing to your body is out of your body within a couple of weeks.

The notion of long-term effects, if you look at the history of vaccines, the number of adverse reactions almost happen almost always immediately, meaning that we have starched out that risk because the majority of clinical trials have already extended beyond that time period.

So, you are talking about risks that are so tiny.

And when people even use the term risk, unfortunately, it's a word that encompasses all risks.

It's not really fair.

The risks here are so marginal.

In addition, in addition, I keep hearing from a lot of what I'll call my cohort that they're going to wait a while.

Well, you know what?

It's not about you.

This isn't about you.

There is a web of death and disability

waving across America.

And if we don't get to herd immunity, 60% of Americans could get this, that's approximately 250 million people called a mortality rate.

1%, that's 2.5 million people, 300,000 have died already.

There are 2.2 million people who are really vulnerable.

And when you decide not to take those tiny risks,

such that you can no longer be a threat, you are no longer part of this hideous, horrific wave, you are putting other people's lives at risk.

In May of 1940, in May of 1940, the Germans drove 400,000 Dutch, French, and British

soldiers to the beaches of Dunkirk.

And the word went out.

If we lose these 400 people, it's going to be a turkey shoot.

They were stranded.

The panzer tanks, for some reason, didn't come in because Hitler supposedly wasn't woken up.

Some general didn't want to wake Hitler up.

If we had lost those 400,000 people, the war would have been over.

And who knows what this world would have looked like.

And what did the British do?

What did the British do?

They said, these guys, these young men need to get off the beach.

And every sailboat, fishing trawler, anything that floated headed over to Dunkirk and got those 400,000 young men off the beach.

And you know what?

We have 2 million people in this nation, brothers and sisters, on the beach right now.

that will die if we don't get to herd immunity.

So this isn't fucking about you.

So few of us.

So few of us have had any call to service.

This is a small call, but it is a call.

It is a call.

And register that call.

Take that call.

Get a vaccine.

It's not about you.

It's about not being a fiber in this threat of death.

And look at the goddamn numbers here.

The risks are anemic.

Let's get 2 million of our fellow Americans off the beach.

Yep.

Thank you.

I love your shut the fuck up.

Shut the fuck up, you people.

Stop.

I love it.

I love it.

You, Winston Churchill.

Let me just, let me just clap for you on this one.

We will fight them, man.

We will never surrender.

We will fight them in the wall.

That's right.

We will go to CVS.

We will roll up our city.

They will wear their masks and get their vaccines.

That's right.

All right.

Well, I'm going to wait a little while.

Fuck you.

Fuck you.

That's right.

Oh, good.

I like it.

I like that we agree on this.

What would you do if I was

exactly?

Let me just say, what would you do if I was an anti-vaxxer?

It would be ugly.

I'm not.

It's just so strange, isn't it?

And it's people have gone so foxy.

Reasonable people are like, well, how might it affect me?

You know what you are when you wait?

You're a free rider and you're a science denier and you can't do math.

Anyway, I think I want to really

freedom.

You have your freedom to kill other people.

It's tyranny.

It's tyranny, Kara.

Jesus.

You'd like to give them some tyranny.

And then we'll see.

Also, Tara Masu.

Anyway, Scott, that's the show.

I love your call to arms, Winnie.

I'm going to call you Winnie from now on.

As a reminder, we love the listener mail questions and we're trying something new.

Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit your question for the pivot podcast.

The link is also in our show notes.

Read us out, Scott.

Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sonanis.

Ernie Indradott engineered this episode.

Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer.

Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burroughs.

Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts.

Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Kara, this is our generation call.

We shall fight.

This is our generation call.

Feed the

this month on explain it to me we're talking about all things wellness we spend nearly two trillion dollars on things that are supposed to make us well collagen smoothies and cold plunges pilates classes and fitness trackers but what does it actually mean to be well Why do we want that so badly?

And is all this money really making us healthier and happier?

That's this month on Explain It To Me, presented by Pureleaf.

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