Lyft and Uber consider franchising, Apple becomes the first $2 trillion company and a listener mail question about social distancing with Aminatou Sow

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott is still in Nantucket.

In his absence, I'm joined by my friend, Amina Tusso.

She is the author of Big Friendship, How We Keep One Another Close, and the co-host of the podcast, Call Your Girlfriend.

We have a lot to talk about.

Amina, welcome back to the show hi kara how's it going how you doing good it's a busy week i have a busy week there's a lot going on i had dropped louis off at college which went well um and i know can you believe it now

old now i mean that means we're older i don't like this He is with you now in New York.

So you're going to take care of him once you can visit him.

But you can drop things off.

They have him quarantine in the dormitory.

I will drop things off.

I'll take him to party.

No, you know, just the two of us.

Just the two of us.

Dinner parties, tara dinner parties no party just the two of us people no no we want we want nyu to work out as opposed to all the other colleges

enough fair enough you know in the interest over the weekend over the weekend a lot of colleges closed down which was you know kind of

when you saw the pictures, you could see why.

I mean, I saw a really good TikTok from these two boys who were essentially saying that if they saw anyone partying, they would snitch on them.

And it made me really happy.

I was like, yes, this is what snitch culture is for.

It is for a global pandemic please tell everyone and bust up all of the parties this is not okay

yeah well he's having a good time i left him a ton of food in his room and he's cookings and he's and is and i get left him his pots and pans so he's very happy does everyone on the show know that louis is literally like the best cook in the world he is he is i i dropped a lot of dimes at like russo's and all this all these and citorell to get him to make him anyway he was he's very happy let's go a couple of things uh the post office updates The postmaster general, Louis DeJoy, I hate that he has a name like my son, is halting the changes the post office made in response to the outcry from the public.

But of course, he's not rolling back any of the changes.

Of course, he could say it now that he's wrecked everything.

So what do you expect to happen next?

He's coming to Congress.

Obviously, this is, you know, they're hoping it's another awful thing they did that's just going to go downstream with the next awful thing they do, like.

backing QAnon.

So

what do you think about that?

I mean, I find it fascinating that, you know, it takes this amount of public outcry for the postmaster general basically to say, oh, I guess this kind of looks bad.

So in the interest of it not looking as nefarious as it is, I'm going to just.

put it on pause.

It's just so nefarious.

It's so nefarious, but also, you know, the thing that really, it's just like management failure from the top when you look at it, where you're like, okay, you are literally carrying out your bosses,

you're carrying out your boss's like orders, But now that you are called into accountability and you have to explain yourself, your boss is nowhere to defend you.

Like no one is there to have your back.

And you are accountable to Congress and you're accountable to the American people.

And he looks like a coward now.

And except they've already done the damage.

I know.

They've already done it.

They're going to keep doing it secretly.

And, you know, it's the thing that Mary Trump was talking about.

The chaos really is the point.

And so

they unleash the chaos and you can't put that genie back in the bottle.

And now there is already doubt sewn into whether we are going to have a fair election in November.

So this, you know, I was like, don't do it from the beginning.

And we're not here as a country.

But, but that's the whole point is to make a mess and then hope that you can

pick it up.

Secondly, Airbnb has filed to go public.

But it was a surprise.

So it looks like that's a good piece of news.

I know.

That's a good piece of news.

I was excited for them.

It felt like, you know, COVID was going to really scuttle that that for a long time so you know hopefully this is a good thing how do you feel about it i think uh it's good i have a little bit of insight i think their business was picking up more than people realized because people are going near their houses right they're renting longer term so they actually have their business is is rebounding because people either want to get out of the city or go to a place or have other places to go and so they have a lot of localized thing in this country and other places there's not a lot of travel elsewhere like i'm not going to you know wherever oregon and renting something but people nearby their areas are growing rather significantly.

I mean, I think that this is a thing that they did really smartly is that they really redefined what travel was, you know, and instead of saying, oh, you have to go to Europe for three months or get on a plane and go far,

you know, explore.

explore travel near you.

Anecdotally, I've been getting a lot of their marketing emails.

And so some of them are geared towards that, but they're also doing this new anti-discrimination push, which I really wonder what that's about.

As someone who, you know, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I've been discriminated on on Airbnb multiple times.

Yes.

That was a big issue with that.

I mean, it is a persistent issue.

So it was just interesting to get that email this week, you know, and then like on the heels of the IPO is like, yes, please

solve the discriminatory issues on your platform.

That'll be better for everyone, including you.

Yes, 100%.

All right.

Speaking of

things that were good news, the Democratic Convention National Convention is pretty good.

It's good TV.

I was really surprised

i'm voting for carrie washington turns out you're not voting for ava longoria wow wow no she was good too i thought that was ridiculous i was like come on it was a host that's all and they're fine and they're very

the hosts have been great it's good

moving like it keeps it moving i have to say this is the way to do a convention not from the roll call to like the speeches are short and sweet and to the point and then you got barack obama is the best speaker ever the best speech he's ever given um you know it was really strong and everything looked different It felt like a, I don't know, what do you think?

You're talking to someone who was like very negative about this whole enterprise from the start.

I have to say that my favorite part of the convention, I've been watching every night, my favorite part of the convention has been the roll call

because

America is so big and beautiful.

You know, it's so nice to see that every single state is so quirky and weird in its own way and everyone is doubling down on the weirdness and the quirkiness of where they're from.

I hope they do the roll call like this forever and ever and ever.

You know, like the production values could be higher.

There was a great tweet.

There was a great tweet, Kara, about why, you know, it's like someone was like, why, this is why Ellen has to yell at people.

They were like, fix this.

They were like, who's producing this?

This is why Ellen has to yell.

I think they're doing it on purpose.

I like the listener.

I think it's quirky and it's fine.

The thing that is like very telethon, kind of thing.

It is like a telethon, which I appreciate.

Another thing I think that is like very true and fair is that this convention is very much not geared towards young voters, which I think is a very practical and good choice from the Biden campaign because

that is not the

electorate that is going to send them over the top.

They have done the math of that.

So whenever I see like people just complaining so much about, you know, like, it's like, where are the young people?

Where are the this?

Where are the that?

It's like, this is not for you.

If you are,

it's not for us.

It's not.

They pulled out Billie Eilish.

They pulled out.

I know, but it is not for,

by and large, this is not a thing to convince us.

And also sometimes the production value being so good also like obfuscates the message.

Like the Violence Against Women's Act and domestic violence piece the other night was very, very, very good.

Like that was good.

Like that is an incredible contribution Joe Biden has made to our politics.

But also, you know, the Violence Against Women's Act was literally rolled up into the crime bill, the one thing Joe Biden doesn't like to talk about.

And also, how can you have a montage of all the women that Joe Biden has been, you know, politically consequential with and not mention Anita Hill.

So it's things like that where you're like, okay, I see what you're doing.

You're putting a band-aid on the whole thing.

It looks nice.

I can't put Anita Hill up there.

Listen, I am very emotional about it.

No, I like, I'm telling you that I know what the point of the convention is.

I think that it is doing it well.

It is also a point of frustration because you're like, oh, this is how we win every time.

It's not meant to be

all of Joe Biden.

It's his greatest hit.

Oh, it's really.

And it's an infomercial.

It's like, by, you know, not, I'm not going to say my pillow because that lunatic.

I know.

That was a really good ad before that man came out as a Trump supporter.

Well, I like the one with the pace that goes on everything and keeps everything waterproof.

I can't remember.

Flex seal.

But nonetheless, I thought it was a very good infomercial.

And I think the hokiness was the little quirkiness that it didn't go to the right thing, that Nancy Pelosi started speaking before it started.

I thought Carrie Washington handled it beautifully, you know, and you have a feeling, you know, that what they're doing is they're meeting Trump where he is.

She's known for scandal right now, even though she's a great actress and lots of things.

But she, people are like, political, right?

You know what I mean?

Like they're sort of meeting, they're sort of using a lot of Trump style kind of stuff, but with a better narrative, with a, with a, I'm really eager to see next week's.

Listen, I think the narrative is great.

I love, you know, like showcasing America's diversity has been, it was really moving to see that, you know, and to be like, yes, like, this is why we are, we are the big tense party.

Look at, look at how.

I was counting that.

I was counting.

Look at everyone.

You know, it's like also even, you know, the woman who nominated Biden is literally, you know, like, you know, she's a working person.

I'm interested to see the RNC.

I think that will be very different.

Give me, before we get to big stories, what is the prediction besides like possibly having the cop that

joke?

There was a joke that they'd have the cop that killed, who killed Jordan.

Oh, George.

It's going to be, it's going to be the Hunter.

It's going to be the Hunter Biden show.

They're literally, they're going to be like, you know, like,

because Hunter Biden, Ukraine.

No, are you kidding me this is the kind of like quirky stuff they love to do that's going to be there there's definitely going to be like a random very joe the plumber kind of person

um

probably scott bayo probably melania is going to plagiarize michelle obama's speech word for word for word

yeah yeah

you know it's gonna it's gonna be a lot of uh it's it's gonna be very strange it's gonna be very strange i'm into i'm into watching it what do you think there who do you think is the host tonight is it it's gotta be oprah right?

Who's the host tonight?

That would be good.

I did not look it up, but I'm sure it's going to be a superstar.

Surprise, right?

They had Jennifer Hudson.

They're kind of like, I'm trying to think who could they get that's kind of a topper.

If they got Beyonce, Oprah, I would be excited.

If they got Beyonce, I would be over the top.

Beyonce would never do it.

Come on.

She would absolutely never do it.

Beyonce would be the one that is nominated for president, obviously.

I don't know who it's going.

I wonder who the host is.

I think it's got to be Oprah.

You think so?

We'll see.

We'll see.

Yes, I feel like that is the case.

We'll see.

In any case, it'll be nice.

In any case, in any case, let us get to big stories.

Uber and Lyft are floating, moving to a franchise model amidst gig worker issues as companies grapple with how to work around classifying their drivers and employees.

Rideshare services are considering licensing their brand to fleets around California.

Uber has already uses this type of model in Germany and Spain.

I interviewed Dara Kostrashahi yesterday, and we got into it about that issue.

He's going to, you know, close down in California, I think today, depending on what the judge says,

and said a lot of stuff about that it just doesn't work and the money is going to cost too much.

There's not going to be enough workers.

And then we had a representative of gig workers who thought it was all bullshit, this third way of employment.

Well, yeah.

So, what do you, what do you, what do you think?

We had Vanessa from Gig Workers Collective, Vanessa Bain.

Well, don't you think, I'm like, is this just me or is this just a return to taxi-style monopoly?

Is that what they're proposing?

Which is very, yeah.

I'm like, oh, this, this is hilarious.

Well, they have AB5 that they don't want to follow.

And so they have prop two they're waiting for that would sort of gut it in a lot of ways.

And so, I mean, I think the issue is your business don't work.

And I think that's the point I was making to him yesterday: your business is not sustainable if you have to pay for people.

Now, he has been pushing this idea of this third way that it's not an employee, not an independent contractor, but an independent contractor essentially with certain rights.

Vanessa made the salient point that people already have employment rights.

Why not just extend them to these people?

Um, and then maybe have a number that you worked more than 20 hours a week.

You know, if it's people that just do five or 10 hours, that's different, obviously.

Right.

I mean, the thing with Uber, too, like with Uber specifically in this arrangement is that they were already kind of operating this in like, you know, pseudo-franchises for the black car services.

Right.

And also, they're literally reinstating a system that they were purporting to disrupt.

So, this is this is just as bad for the drivers.

What do you imagine is going to happen here?

What do you think is what has to happen with this with these companies?

Because this whole concept of gig workers is really, I mean, most people are going to be gig workers.

There has to be, I'm not saying a third way, but do we have to radically rethink what an employee is overall and then use some of the- I mean, do we have to rethink what an employee is or just treat employees well?

I'm like, employees are employees are employees.

I just, I find it it like,

yeah, I find it very grading that these companies are, you know, acting like gig work one is this like completely new category of work.

And that because it's gig work, they don't deserve rights.

I think that what you are going to see is more labor organizing around this.

And you, I think that the drivers and the labor organizers are who are going to push these companies to change because

it it's just not it's just not tenable and truly it's it's not fair and you're just seeing that they're like the company itself has no imagination they're literally bringing back a system that they're like this is a system we're disrupting and all of this is to squeeze more labor and money out of workers it's like uber like you would do better to treat your workers well well so what do you what do you imagine is going to happen here if if if prop 22 passes it's at odds with the law um so what what do you have what has to happen just just treat them as employees if they work a certain number of hours i mean treat them as employees like figure out the worker classification for sure because what this is looking like to me is a pretty desperate gamble.

And, you know, I'm like gambling.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

And long term, this does not feel like a winning proposition for the company itself.

So I don't understand why they are, you know, using this as a band-aid.

This is bad.

Yeah.

So what do you, you know, you're someone who is,

a lot of people who work for Uber are people who are

lots of different kinds of people work for Uber.

And so they have,

does this help or hurt workers to have this, to have this idea of more workers' rights in terms of extending it to everybody?

And what can we do on the federal level?

It's got to be universal health care.

That I think is one of the biggest showings of this.

Other rights, including unemployment insurance.

Vanessa was talking about inability to collect terms.

They owe her $10,000.

100%.

Like we need to give people health care.

We need to figure out retirement and insurance because Kara, the whole way that like, you know, the companies lure people to drive for them is telling them that it'll make them financially secure.

And all you're doing is like increasing the precarity that they're in.

But truly, the drivers are, the drivers are the force of the whole thing.

There is no company without them.

So I always struggle with this because you have been an independent contractor.

Yeah, I've been an independent contractor for a little bit about that.

And you also have visa.

You're from,

you're from.

I'm a refugee.

I'm like a full like refugee, independent contractor.

Had to figure out like a green card.

This country is is a nightmare for anyone who wants to work for you.

Explain it to people who don't understand, who don't, what, what the difficulties you go through, because I think it gets so sucked up into partisan.

Talk about the, you know, being an independent contractor and the difficulty of doing that and getting the rights you deserve.

Right.

So being an independent contractor for me, I will say, has been like generally a net positive because I, yeah, it's everything they tell you about the gig economy.

It's like you're flexible.

You get to be your own boss.

You get to set your own, which Dara was pushing.

Yeah.

Which Dara was.

Which I think is like, is great.

And honestly, like something that, you know, more conservative people should definitely push for.

I was like, this is the pull yourself by your pants shit that you guys are preaching about all the time.

We love it.

But the truth is that also like being responsible for your overhead in this way is, I think, like really stifles entrepreneurship because we live in a country that does not have a solid like

safety, does not have a solid like safety net.

Like I, you know, like I had cancer for two years and was not able to work.

And the only, like, truly the only privilege I had is that I had like a pretty healthy savings account.

But it is nuts to have to live through your savings because, you know, like we don't have good programs for that.

Or also, you know, like I, my health insurance at this point costs thousands of dollars a month, like between health insurance and the drugs I have to take, hanging on by a thread.

But I'm also very much like, I don't have kids.

They don't have responsibilities.

So I can figure it out.

But at scale in this country, this, it's not normal.

It is truly not normal to to want to just like make a living and to be a little more creative in how you do that and not want to participate in corporate America and not have any of these structures.

So much of retirement, healthcare,

everything is tied to like corporate employment here in a way that is.

And that is going.

And that is going in a way that, and especially after this pandemic, people are not going to be hiring people back.

Yeah.

You know, and people are going to be working from home and people are going to be gig workers more and more and more.

I mean, it's just, I think most people feel like that's the way of the future.

I think it's the way of the future.

I think that, you know, for a lot of like people who are, you know, like a little bit younger,

we can figure it out a bit more because you can have like one foot into,

you know, like doing corporate work and then come out and consult and do the like back and forth.

And if you want to leave, you want to leave.

But this country is very discriminatory towards older people.

So that is not like a an opportunity that a lot of people have.

But I do think that this model of work is the future for so many people, whether you work at a, you know, a fancy tech company or you, or you don't.

And so for that alone, I think that the federal government really needs to get involved in regulating this, but all of the other issues that we have, like childcare, healthcare, like whatever, all of that needs to get solved in order for people to just be able to contribute at work and to not feel like they are hanging on paycheck to paycheck.

That was the point of Elizabeth Warren, who was just such a troller last night.

I love the whole thing.

She was the best.

She had Joe in the corner, BLM in the blocks.

It was, she was like,

I was like, that lady is just

all of it is true, right?

Like, I think that there, I think that there is a model in which these companies can get rich and still not treat people like awful.

You know, we, we need to figure that out, especially if you are saying that the people are the power of your company.

Like billionaires need workers.

Workers don't need billionaires.

So figure it out.

And beyond that, I think a lot of parents who are of means and who had child care, who had adequate child care and had the ability to do that.

Now, like, I had someone's like, this is really hard having your kid at home without, I was like, welcome to everybody else.

Like, you think, like, I think for people, whether they go back to it once they get their full-time childcare or whatever, I think everyone understands the necessity of child care.

That was to me, the most important thing.

Last question on this, and then we'll go to a break.

What do you, Darren did talk about the idea of

doing this and it happening and having

this thing happening today, which is closing down.

Do you think consumers are going to, he's hoping that there's a hue and cry that we need our cheap Ubers.

I don't think it's going to happen quite that way.

I think people are going to realize what this business model really means is they've been getting a free ride.

I don't think it's going to happen that way.

I'm literally one of the, I'm one of the people who bought a car in the pandemic.

You know what I mean?

I was like,

there is a growing trend of people who are

who are going to buy cars.

And yeah, I was like, if the alternative is to figure out public transportation or to own your own transportation, I'm like, I will do either of those things before

like, I will do ride sharing again, you know?

And, and I think that that's something that's worth considering.

But truly, it, it just makes it hard if you are a consumer who is even a little bit

conscious of the choices that you make to support them as a company.

And they're the ones that make it hard for you.

Right.

And it's not just Uber, it's Lyft and Uber, Lyft,

yeah, all of them.

And the problem is that that convenience is what we really do need in the pandemic, but you can't turn regular people into frontline workers and not pay them like their jobs matter.

So, 100%.

That's as

Nicole Hannah Jones says, they are sacrificial workers, not as well.

It's awful.

I will say that over and over again.

I thought it was one of the most important things.

All right, Aminatu, let's take a quick break and come back to talk about Apple becoming the world's first $2 trillion company and a listener male question about how we keep one another close or not during the pandemic.

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And we're back.

Apple was the first company to become a $1 trillion company back in 2018.

And now, two years later, it's the first company valued at $2 trillion.

A lot of people thought Amazon would get their first.

As recently as mid-March, Apple's value was under $1 trillion, but quickly climbed back in recent weeks.

Despite growing calls from Congress to examine the monopoly power of big tech companies, Facebook, Google, Amazon, and have grown even more powerful during the pandemic, along with Target and Walmart, by the way.

They're doing rather well.

All the big companies are doing well.

What do you think about this 2 trillion situation?

I mean,

Apple adding a trillion

in value over the past, I guess, like 20 weeks, 21 weeks is

to me, it's concerning when you think that when you consider that the backdrop is that the global economy is shrinking faster than it ever has before, you know, so I'm like, that concerns me.

That really, really, really concerns me.

It concerns me that we are, you know, inequality is just like growing leaps and bounds.

And

rich people are just getting richer and richer and richer.

You know, I just, I, if Apple were a country, I think at this point, it would be like the eighth, like richest country.

Do we really need that?

Do we need that?

I'm not sure that we need that.

What do we do about about that, though?

Because it's not, this is the stock market putting these valuations on these companies.

So there's not, it definitely is a juxtaposition when they're getting to $2 trillion and then they're fighting with something like Fortnite and all the developers over power.

What to do about it?

What is your perception?

Because you can't really change what Wall Street is valuing at.

Yeah, I mean, we can't change what Wall Street is valuing it at, but I think that what we can do is hold them more accountable to what they're doing.

You know, we were talking about the issue with Fortnite.

And I'm like, that is, it's interesting that this is happening as they're facing the biggest legal challenges than that they ever will in their history.

And I think that we're just going to keep, this is just going to keep happening more and more.

For me, it's really a question of like, what are you doing with that growing revenue?

How are you being held accountable?

Because the, the more, um, the more valuable the company is, the harder it is for, um, you know, for people outside of the company to really have a grasp on what's going on.

And so that, I don't know, that really concerns me.

It's also just, it's one of these like watching them like really tout this in a press release during COVID is, you know, that seems very crass to me.

But yeah, I, like you, I'm like, I'm watching and I'm curious, but I, I, I feel that we are watching an acceleration of something that cannot be good happen.

So we'll see.

What, what do we do?

What do we do?

What happens?

Watching it is one thing.

Is there

anything you and I can do?

I think that no one's thought of breaking up apple apple has not thought of being broken up others have you know they think about all the others google facebook amazon that's been discussion is there a breakup here or is there a necessity for a breakup i mean i i definitely think that they need more reg they need more regulation in their in their hardware ecosystem like that's one thing that can happen i think that um

you know uh something needs to happen with the payment systems like there is a monopoly there also that is concerning um and yeah you know it's like if even now on the like just thinking about the fact that they take a 30% cut in the app store, just it seems like extortion at this point.

It's like, what do you need all of this for?

But yeah, it's like the way that I look at this is that the government has to step in again.

You know, we like, there's nothing that you and I can do.

And the rest of us are all watching.

But I just, I just wonder, I'm like, is the government also watching this and just excited about it?

Or are we, or are they understanding that this is actually a problem?

So what is the next $2 trillion company?

Cause Because that's where this is headed.

I mean,

I like thinking about that.

It's giving me agita.

I mean, Amazon, obviously.

Do you think they're mad that they didn't get there first?

No, I don't think so.

I think Jeff Bezos is very happy with himself.

He's very happy with himself.

Very happy with himself, the Jeff Bezos story.

Yes, exactly.

I think he has no problem with that.

I don't think so.

I mean, yeah, probably them and who else?

Google.

followed by Microsoft.

You know, it's just big, big, big, big, big in all areas.

And again, let's just stress, this is not just tech companies.

Walmart and Target had their best quarters ever, like because they were designated, you know, the places people could shop compared to small businesses.

Even though, you know, you could buy anything at a Walmart or a Target, it was designated a grocery store, an essential service.

And so everybody who had all those smaller stores with other things that were not deemed essential, even though they're inside of

a Walmart,

you know, got killed.

You can see boarded up.

You know, just even in New York, watch the only thing that seemed to be doing okay were finally restaurants.

Some of the restaurants were doing better because they were able to operate outside.

But, you know, the boarded upness of the entire city was really, and here too, the same.

Yeah, I mean, and small businesses are just, you know, I think in New York, the stat that I saw in the Times Metro section was that probably a third of those businesses will never come back, which is so sad.

You know, I like, I also just, I know that we've been like very negative about this, but, you know, I think that I just want to be clear that we're not intertwining the performance of tech companies with the wealth gap.

You know, I'm like, the tech companies are not responsible for the growing inequality that we're seeing, but they're definitely an example of it.

And yeah, so I'm like, I'm not blaming Apple or the stock market or whatever for making trillions.

I'm just saying that millions of people are out of work

because of how we handled coronavirus.

And the backdrop of this are these companies who are thriving and everyone else in a small business is doing very poorly.

And that is not, that is not an America that is, that is sustainable.

This is all going, this is all going to end badly.

So maybe

they will talk about it at the at the Democratic Convention tonight.

I hope so.

I hope so.

They sort of did.

They talked, let's see,

gun violence.

They talked about

sexual harassment.

They talked about immigrants.

Yeah, I guess they could.

They could talk about this idea of that.

of that.

They didn't really zero in on the rich versus.

Next time you should have like a hedge fund person or whatever talk about, do you love how technical I am?

A hedge fund person or whatever.

I just want to hear more about these valuations because they're very perplexing.

They're very, very, very perplexing.

And I have so many questions about them.

Well, Wall Street is not Main Street.

Okay.

We're going to move on to another thing.

You asked listeners, speaking of touching, and someone's going to talk to us.

You asked listeners how they're navigating one another during the pandemic.

Your book is about how to navigate friendship and other relationships.

So here is one listener's dilemma.

You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman.

You've got mail.

Hi, this is Jeff from Oklahoma.

I wanted to give an answer to Ms.

Sal's question regarding boundaries during COVID.

My oldest son is a congenital heart defect patient and at great risk of the most detrimental effects of the virus were he to be infected.

Thus, we've been in various stages of quarantine since late February.

We haven't let a single person even near our home without specifying that they need to to be in a mask and distance from all of us.

But I'm having to make a much different decision now.

My baby brother is dying of liver and kidney failure at 32.

I have had to make the agonizing decision to not be there as he moves into hospice.

Even if I were to quarantine for two weeks after his inevitable passing, I can't guarantee that I won't myself contract the virus, pass it on to my children, or possibly die from it.

I feel life's experiences and problems are relative, so I'm sure there are horror stories that make my own current circumstances pale in comparison, but having the courage to make sure that I extensively question anyone who comes near my home has been a no-brainer.

I'm curious how the two of you are negotiating these things and what kind of boundaries you've set up.

Thanks for everything.

I love your show.

I'm okay, comparatively.

Wow.

This is such a heartbreaking kind of voicemail to get.

I am,

I, yeah, I'm really grateful for this to this person for calling in and just

really,

just heartbroken for them because

everyone is having to make these really impossible decisions during coronavirus, like impossible, impossible decisions.

And this one, this one is definitely up there in the, in the puzzle of how do you, how do you figure it all out?

And, you know, it, it makes me, um,

it makes me really upset, Kara, because there, there was a different way that this could have been handled, um, where people would not have to choose between, um, which relative do you have to see?

Like, whose safety are you putting first?

What are you doing?

It is just, um,

this is really upsetting to me.

It's a grading thing because it's not, this guy obviously has a worse time with his child and relatives being very sick, but people do also deal with it on a very basic level.

I know, I think Amanda's very, yeah, I can't, she can't, the baby can't see her grandparents, and she's very close to her family.

Friends can't see each other.

You can't, I can't see you, for example.

I've gone to two Zoom funerals since quarantine has started.

Um, we have another uh Shiva on Zoom next week.

This is all very, very, very upsetting to me.

You know, people cannot grieve appropriately.

There is no closure.

There is no end in sight.

And again, when we are confronted with choices like the one the listener is making,

I think that having a little bit of grace for yourself is important.

And, you know,

making choices and rationalizing them to yourself is the only thing that you can do.

Like,

you know, we are not not in a position to say like, what is, what's the best thing to do, but I think that for anyone who is, but I think that for anyone who is listening at home, I think that really having this perspective of, okay, like, sure, like maybe you want to go to a bar or maybe you want to see people or, you know, or maybe you really do need to see your parents or you want to socialize with people.

But I think that really remembering the sobering truth that.

there are harder and other choices that people are making.

And every choice that you make as an individual impacts the collective.

And so,

that is, you know, I think that, like, from an ethical perspective, and really from a, from a place of just like wanting to be a good citizen and a good member of my community, that is something that I struggle with all the time, you know?

Well, it's interesting because I think people are this the level of selfishness has surprised me.

Although there's been a lot of moments of grace and people are being lovely, like I found people in New York great this weekend.

You know, I mean, I was expecting like an onslaught of attitude, but it wasn't that.

It was actually lovely.

People were really masking up.

They were being,

of course, but then I was like, I was getting to the toll booth.

I was putting on my mask.

I happen to be talking to my mom.

I always use my mom's example.

And she's like, why are you doing that?

I'm like, the toll booth operator has to deal with people every day.

Why should I try to get them sick?

And, oh, that's silly.

And I was like, what is, and I was like, literally, I like how the babies, I'm like, what is wrong with you?

Are you homicidal?

Like,

are you homicidal?

Like, it was weird.

I was sort of like, what is

it?

The total lack of empathy and a lack of just regard?

I'm going back to like Michelle Obama's speech on night one of the, of this thing.

And when, when she really talked about the empathy piece, that has stayed with me for a long time because, you know, like Mary Trump talked about that when we were with her also.

Just this complete disregard for other people.

It's like, what does it cost you to wear a mask for five minutes to pass a toll booth?

It doesn't cost me anything.

It's like, what does it cost you to to to just to be a decent human being to other people and so i don't know it it doesn't surprise me it really disappoints me give let's do let's do something positive what what do you you know you your whole book is about how you and your best friend have maintained closeness with through difficulties um

how do you maintain it in the digital space now what advice do you have for people who are having trouble staying close to friends during time it doesn't have to be as dramatic i mean i will tell i will confess to you that we did not write an advice book because we are not experts or qualified.

Like, it's very much,

you know,

a memoir of our friendship.

I think that in COVID,

you know, Anne and I do not live in the same city.

So at the beginning of the pandemic, very much our friendship was not affected because we don't, yeah, it's like, it's the friendships with the people that you live in town with that are, you know, those had to go digitally very quick.

But the longer this has gone on, the more challenging it's been for all of us.

I will say that the thing that has helped me the most is just being a little vulnerable with your friends and saying, and actually telling them, like, hi, I am struggling to stay in touch with you and I want to figure it out together.

Because I think that the biggest lesson I have learned, at least in my own life, about any kind of relationship strife is that it is mostly a thing that you are talking to yourself about and not to the other person that's involved with.

in the thing.

And so I think that just saying to your friends, like, hi, like, I am Zoomed out or I am, I am, I, I have childcare responsibilities.

I have a lot of things.

I, I don't know,

I, I don't know when I'm going to get a moment to myself, but you are someone that I think about a lot.

And you are someone who I want to try to integrate into this, um, you know, into my quarantine.

To be very explicit about it, sometimes even just saying that, like, takes all of the pressure off because you have now both reassured each other that you are struggling with the same thing.

Are there better?

Are there better tools that you found that, you know, to do that?

I do FaceTimes.

Like, I was doing a lot of people.

I don't, i have been really baffled with how um i understand why for work we have to use zoom and video chat i completely understand it right i don't understand why everyone has decided that the technology of work also has to apply to friendships and to relationships i see because that just makes it harder just call people what do you do with people who don't live in your town just call them i was like i i call my dad i call my friends i think people appreciate that i also say um when you think of someone immediately get in touch with them in a way it doesn't have to be a phone call.

You can drop them a letter in the mail.

You can

drop a postcard.

Carol, I send you postcards.

Don't act like this is weird.

You know what?

I gave, I know, I know.

I'm teasing you.

I gave Louie stamps and he was, he still can't.

I know.

Remember when Louie called us one time because he couldn't figure out the postage situation, the post has been?

He was like, what do you do?

He's like, so you stand in line and then you buy stamps and then they make sure.

I didn't even know where to put the address.

He put the, he did, I literally mailed something for him and he had the address in the, in the return address.

That's not his fault.

They should be teaching that in high school.

Okay.

That is not his fault.

But listen, I was just saying, like, you should get in touch with someone.

Like, um, this, uh, like, I, I have a friend who is very good at this who she will just call you and uh leave you a voicemail.

Like, she knows that you're not going to answer and she just leaves you a voicemail.

I love to listen to the voicemail.

You just have to figure out what your people want.

I don't think that there's one size-fits-all advice, but I think that instead of carrying the guilt,

what do you not do?

What do you, what is the worst thing in this digital?

I do not video time people who i know don't want to be on uh facetime i think the worst thing that you can do also is just not being explicit with your words it's just not telling people that they matter to you and you care about them like that is the the worst just tell people and then figure it out that's the beautiful thing about friendship is that the two people in the friendship get to define the rules of how they do their friendship Right.

And when you take away from, if you were writing this book that you wrote now, what would,

what would be, so you already had the long distance relationship.

You were already working on that.

But in general, for people, if you were adding a chapter right now of how to deal with it in this timeframe,

what would you put in it?

Always connect.

I would put in it.

Connect when you can, but also

talk about how you are going to connect.

Like, I think that that's important.

Keeping in touch is a muscle that you have to exercise.

If you don't do it, you're going to be the person who doesn't keep in touch.

If you try, you will probably get better at it.

I also think,

yeah, you have to be consistent in the way that you do it.

I don't mean that in that you have to do it every day, but you have to figure out a rhythm that works.

And again, you're in a relationship with someone else.

So you should figure out what that is.

It's like, are they, you know, do they like it when you text them?

Do they like it when you DM them?

Do they like, I know it sounds very cheesy and it's all very, you know, it's like you got to talk about a lot of this stuff, but this is why

this is what makes like relationships great, like whether they're romantic or not, is that you figure out each other's boundaries, you figure out what like people like and you, you get to infuse like your own, you know, your sense of like wonder and magic into it.

And I think that you cannot do that if you are not in dialogue about what each of you want out of the relationship.

I would like a hologram with you.

Oh, I would give you a hologram, Kara.

I would just be in your house all the time.

What do you like?

Do you, you would probably be like a really good like Alexa voice.

Like that's what you would be.

I would be.

I would be.

I would like, I like FaceTime, especially with the baby.

The baby loves it.

Loves FaceTime.

The baby is

always like very expressive on FaceTime.

I get excited because I'm like, oh, maybe she's recognizing my voice.

No, she's just stimulated.

We love it.

No, she recognizes you.

But it's really, I like FaceTime.

I have to say, I find FaceTime great for personal, especially because of the baby.

But I like, you know, I like FaceTime.

I do.

Listen, I think it depends.

Like, I like FaceTime and you like FaceTime.

So I'll FaceTime you.

But like, what do you do with the people who don't like FaceTime?

I just, I text.

That's my other.

Texting is my number one.

You're not a good texture.

Do you do like voice to text or do you text the yourself?

No, I hate voicemails.

No, I mean, like, when you're texting, are you talking on telephone or do you like type the words?

I sit there with my little tiny digits.

Yeah, you're a prolific texter.

This is true.

I am a prolific text.

This is true.

I could move a poke on my text.

Anyway, this is really interesting time, but we're going to have one more quick break and we'll be back with predictions.

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Okay, last week, Andrew and I talked about what cabinet positions might look like under a Biden-Harris administration.

I know you thought that's what you were going to talk about, but you know what?

The RNC is coming up.

It's a scary thought, but any idea is what the Trump cabinet might look like if he gets re-elected.

I'm sorry.

I can't believe Andrew Russ Sorkin gets the like

everything easy.

And you're asking me to imagine the worst empire possible.

Come on.

Come on, just a few.

What do you, who's going to, are they going to, are we going to bring people back?

What is he?

He literally has dregs.

No, he literally has dregs.

He doesn't have anybody good.

I was like, when you lose an evil name like Rex Tillerson, can you get higher than that?

Like, I don't think so.

Right.

Right.

So any, will he, will he, if he loses, I think he's going to have protests out the yin yang.

I think if he wins, this is going to be.

I think he's going to name one of his kids in the cabinet.

Like he's going to have to.

Like a kid or a relative.

Like there's just no.

Like, you know, I'm just like, where else is he going to find these people?

I think like one of them.

Who would you like him to have?

Act like you, he, he, he suddenly goes, oh, God, I better, like, clean this up a little bit.

What, who would you like to have?

Oh, like, in a good, like, he gets a mind and he cleans it up.

Yeah, because Hillary Clinton talked about that.

I thought he might rise to the occasion, Barack Obama.

I thought he might like understand the gravity of where he was.

And then he didn't.

I don't know.

Maybe like suddenly he understands.

He's such a like demented game, Kara, but I'll play along for two seconds.

All right, okay.

Um, maybe Mitt Romney, like have Mitt Romney as something important.

Have

not make him have an embarrassing dinner.

I mean, the dinner, like Mitt Romney has already humiliated himself.

So that's his problem.

Yeah.

Well, he's, he's ridiculous.

Who else?

Kara, these people are all bad.

Like, have, I don't know, Colin Powell, like, somewhere at defense.

Have,

no, this is a bad game.

It's, like, I literally cannot see it because all the people who could have been, you know, doing this are all speaking at the DNC.

So unclear.

Right.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Right.

I just, I, I can't like, uh, I can't play that.

Who Who would be the worst?

Who would be?

Okay, well, the worst is Betsy DeVos staying at her job, like

education.

She's just like ripping the whole place apart from beginning.

So that's bad.

Having like a straight up conspiracy theorist, like, which there already are, but like someone like fully from

GOP nominations.

Those guys are winning GOP nominations.

It's bad.

You know, like Tom Cotton joining the administration, also bad.

I don't know, that's Ben Shapiro,

you know, like press secretary, bad,

that kind of stuff.

No, thank you.

Okay.

So you don't see any, it's, it just can't happen.

I mean, why do you think that it could happen?

I always, you know what?

I'm one of those people.

I mean, but don't you think that that is a cheater's gonna cheat?

I think he's gonna cheat.

I think if it's close, you're gonna see a real, I think eventually he'll be out, but he, I think the Democrats are making their strongest bid right now.

I think, I think, you know, you could have a younger person than Biden.

You could do a lot of things, but it's a good-looking pair.

Everybody likes him.

This is the best effort going at this moment.

And so if it doesn't work,

I think it'll be protests 24-7.

I hope there are

protests 24-7.

I hope he does not win.

It's just, you know, Barack Obama speech was really, it was like, this cannot go on.

This is when...

I pissed off Barack Obama.

I thought I'd.

Oh, my God.

I honestly like was

so scared it was like between him and hillary last night and they were like uh good luck everyone take care of yourself i was like i cannot handle this this is not okay

yeah i agree it was but i i did like kamal harris kara if you were going to be in the government maybe not of this like evil like person but if you were going to have like any government job in an like administration that you like which job would you like i would create an a director of the internet oh that's good i would create a new a new area because you know we have an sec we've got it's a it's a very distinct industry.

And I would, Andrew Yang wants the job, so I'd have to arm wrestle him.

Sarah, you, like, no offense to Andrew Yang.

Well, some offense to Andrew Yang.

You have more tech experience than Andrew Yang.

Okay.

Selling an SAT company, I'm like, is that what makes you a tech entrepreneur?

But that's just me.

I.

Oh, just very quickly, Steve Bannon was just arrested.

I think he misspoke to Congress.

Oh, no.

I love it.

Are we still facing consequences?

Probably he'll pardon him.

I mean, he'll definitely pardon him.

Are you kidding?

Who knows?

Oh, man.

I think he did actually lie to God.

They did a criminal, the bipartisan commission, the Senate Commission

did say Eric Trump, Steve Bannon, a number of people.

Oh, he was charged with fraud for the border wall campaign.

Oh.

Oh, that one?

Okay.

I thought that was the Senate thing.

Wow.

Fraud for the border wall.

Whatever.

Talk about he, that's, it all begins and ends with him, doesn't it?

It really does.

I have to say, Steve Bannon is probably one of the most single, most damaging personalities in this country.

Awful, awful, awful, awful, awful.

I think he really did predict and facilitate Trump in a way that

I think people don't appreciate his impact.

Same thing with Rupert Murdoch.

Yeah, I mean, really,

weaponizing people's xenophobia.

Weaponizing people's xenophobia and hate.

Let me tell you the job that I want.

I I want to be on the board of the USPS because I looked up the board members.

It's like nine white dudes.

Everyone is a lawyer.

It is such a cushy job.

First of all, you get paid like $50,000 for the board assignment.

And then all of this other, you know, like travel stipends or whatever.

I'm like, none of these people need this.

Please reform the board.

Be so good on the post office.

I know.

I'm like, reform the board of the USPS.

That's the, I'm like, that's where I want to serve on that or just be postmaster general.

I love the post.

I love the postal service.

Okay.

I'm telling you this.

I'm telling you this so that when you're queen, you remember to put me at the post office.

It's the only assignment I have.

All right.

Okay.

It's done, Amina.

You've got it.

You've got it.

When I am, I will make you the head of the postal service.

If I had any cloud, it would happen.

It would be very funny.

I can't wait.

You'd be so into stamps.

You'd be like, all right.

Actually, you know what?

They have good stamps.

They do have good stamps.

Currently, there is the best stamp at the U.S.

The best stamp at the post office right now, if you're looking to buy stamps, is they have issued a Ruth Asawa stamp.

She's an amazing artist.

Those stamps are beautiful.

There are, yeah, look at the stamp collection online.

You don't have to go with the boring ones.

They're like, there's some beautiful, beautiful stamps.

And the postal service, when I was there recently, they were like, buy some stamps and help us.

And these are great.

They were all excited about showing me their stamps and they were all great.

They were all great.

Anyway, Amina, it's been a pleasure hosting with you this week what advice do you have for baratundi thurston who is co-hosting with me next week what should we discuss what should you discuss well definitely ask him um who his creative picks for the trump administration 2.0

i'm i'm curious about hearing those um i'm gonna ask him yeah i think you should ask him that i think you should ask him um yeah you should also ask him like what he wants to do in the government.

I see what you're doing.

All of your guests are just your shadow cabinet.

So

I'm loving this for you, Kara.

You would totally be my chief of state.

What's Scott up to?

Is he like, what's his, what's his deal?

When is he coming back?

He's in Nantucket.

Living his best life.

Well, his fans have been tweeting at me.

So

like,

Scott will be back from

Nantucket very soon, everyone.

No worries.

No.

Oh, my God.

They, they love you.

Don't you?

Listen,

listen, they love me.

I love Scott.

He has a good fan base.

I'm into it.

I know.

He does.

I know.

I know.

Don't say anything.

Anyway, we did.

We did a live pivot yesterday.

And so

he got his game on, and they got enough of Scott.

So that's fine.

Anyway,

I'm going to be happy to have him back too.

But I love having someone like you and all the

Stephanie Rule and Andrew.

And I'm excited for next week.

So I can't.

Anyway, speaking of Scott, we hope you've been loving our live stream series called Pivot Schools.

You can still get tickets for next week's show at pivotschool.com.

Next week is Sundar Pachai.

Yay.

It's Tim Wu and Sundar Pachai.

I think it'll be great.

And now I'm going to, I'm going to, can you meet us out?

Can you read us out, Amina?

That would be fun.

I can read us out.

Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sananes.

Fernando Finate engineered this episode.

Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer.

Thanks again to me, Aminatu, for co-hosting this week.

Kara, thank you.

Aminatu.

Kara, thanks for having me.

Make sure that you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Kara will be back next week with Bartumde Thurston co-hosting the breakdown on all things tech and business.

And just remember Amina's book, Big Friendship, How We Keep One Another Close, How We Keep One Another Close.

And she's also the co-host of a fantastic podcast called Call Your Girlfriend.

Thank you so much, Amina.

Thank you, Kara.

I'm gonna miss you.

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