"Friends of Pivot" breakdown the big stories of the decade

Support for the show comes from Saks Fifth Avenue.

Sacks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to shop for your personal style.

Follow us here, and you can invest in some new arrivals that you'll want to wear again and again, like a relaxed product blazer and Gucci loafers, which can take you from work to the weekend.

Shopping from Saks feels totally customized, from the in-store stylist to a visit to Saks.com where they can show you things that fit your style and taste.

They'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in, or when that Brunella Cacchinelli sweater you've been eyeing is back in stock.

So, if you're like me and you need shopping to be personalized and easy, head to Sacks Fifth Avenue for the best fall arrivals and style inspiration.

Thumbtack presents Project Paralysis.

I was cornered.

Sweat gathered above my furrowed brow and my mind was racing.

I wondered who would be left standing when the droplets fell, me or the clogged sink.

Drain cleaner and pipe snake clenched in my weary fist, I stepped toward the sink and then- Wait, why am I stressing?

I have thumbtack.

I can easily search for a top-rated plumber in the Bay Area, read reviews, and compare prices, all on the app.

Thumbtack knows homes.

Download the app today.

Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway, capping off the decade.

That's right.

That's right.

I'm Anderson Cooper, minus the hair, the good looks, and the famous mother, but I'm here, and you're my Kathy Griffin, Kara.

What were you doing 10 years ago, Scott?

Without?

I was recovering from the the recession.

I'd just been run over.

I had a two-year-old son at home, and I was starting to get my act together professionally.

I had spent 10 years kind of enjoying a wonderful midlife crisis, partying in New York.

And then my son had the poor judgment to come rotating out of my girlfriend, and shit got real, and I got back to work.

So 10 years ago, I started getting back to work.

Oh, wow.

You know, I was working for Rupert Murdoch 10 years ago.

Really?

Yeah, I worked at All Things Do.

I was at

Walt Mossberg's Coattails.

Yes, where I did did that, but then I surpassed the mastery.

There we go.

No, he was great.

No, he was great.

He was great.

I was doing great.

I had a nice, 2010 was a good time.

I had small children.

My kids were in,

we're small, were smaller.

And I'm just looking at some pictures, but we had a really good,

we were running All Things D.

It was going great at the time, and we were doing big deal things there.

And it had sort of just reached its sort of biggest

many years of things.

So it was a good time.

And I'd started professionally.

I just started, I had just founded L2.

I was obviously teaching, and then I thought, so wait, back to me.

I published a piece of research where I took 1,200 data points to analyze a brand's digital footprint, and I put the research out and ranking 100 companies.

And 40 of the companies called me and said, who are you and why are you doing this?

And I went to NYU and said, I'll give you stock if you give me the IP.

And that was the birth of L2.

That was 2010.

Wow.

Wow.

10 years ago today, to this year, not today, but this year was when we did the famous Mark Zuckerberg sweating interview, Walt and I did.

That was 10 years ago?

That was 10 years ago in June of 2010.

And also, we did a great Steve Jobs interview.

He was quite in good health then.

Or in relative, not great health.

He was

sick, but he had a little bit of a rebound.

But we did one of the most amazing interviews before he died.

And then, but yeah, we interviewed the Mark Zuckerberg sweating video.

Yeah.

Wow.

And I was, let me see, I'm 43 now, so I was 33 then.

Yeah, 33.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I'm really old.

I was not that young.

In any case, we're going through the, what are you going to do for this decade?

What's your decade plan?

For the next decade?

Yeah.

I just want to surround myself with people that love me a great deal and that know they're loved by me and

enjoy the salad days, Kara.

What else?

That's very nice.

That's a lovely thing.

I'm going to get bigger and better.

That's my plan.

But what is your lesson of the past 10 years?

Do you have any lessons?

You know, like reflections?

Well, I mean,

I'm feeling a little bit hungover, so I'm a little bit melancholy.

But my lessons from, and you didn't do the math, I'm actually 55 now, from 45 to 55, for me, it was a time of recognizing or waking up at the beginning of my 40s and realizing I didn't have a lot of deep, meaningful relationships, that I was very selfish.

And I've started investing in those relationships.

So I come out of the last 10 years with a lot.

And I just want to, for me, the last 10 years, And Carol, I don't know if you know this, I wrote a book about this, but I recognized that if I continue to be an island and be just a male that was living in...

I know your book.

My children read it.

I know that.

If I was going to continue to be a, I mean, I was literally kind of the beginning of the decade, living alone in Manhattan, leaving my apartment to go to the ready tailor, get food or sex, living like a caveman.

And then I decided, this is awesome and I'm good at it.

But if I continue this, all the science says I'm going to die in my 60s because men who live alone.

And so I started, I started investing in relationships and it was the smartest thing I've ever done.

You know, you know, you sound like a lesbian, which is why I like you so much.

Do I?

Yes, you do.

You really do.

You're literally.

I mean, you're my

lesbian.

I'm literally the worst lesbian.

I have only

sports.

I have to make exposures to lesbian culture.

You and Cinemax.

Other than that, I have absolutely.

I knew you would have to make a tasteless remark about lesbian porn.

Okay, listen.

Everything I'm going to do is to get away from the private

heart from you.

Stop.

I'm not letting you go down that lesbian porn avenue.

It's not happening today.

Anyway, because the end of the decade, because a lot of people are doing this, we're going to do things a little differently.

We're obviously going to to go break down a few big stories the past 10 years and some of them, let's bring in a few friends of Pivot.

We got some good people talking to us, people we like and or admire to hear more about this.

I haven't heard this.

Have you heard this?

I haven't heard this yet.

No, I haven't.

Rebecca went out and got them.

Rebecca did an amazing job.

So shall we get started and close this decade down?

We're done with the 10s.

We're going into the 20s, my friend.

Stop the mic.

The roaring 20s.

And you know how that ended, not so well.

All right, big decade breakdown.

Let's get into it.

Number one, Fang.

This was a huge decade for big tech uh it was very big in 2010 but not as big as it is now uh it's a cliche but really a bit of a reckoning for silicon valley toward the end uh and you obviously scott published a book called the four and you yeah a key moment of turn a key moment of attention did you no but you said the four you were like that's how i met you that's when i met you did you coin this term fang or not no i didn't i coined the term the four

and but no i didn't coin the term fang that's not me thank you though anyway do you what what do you think about this big tech?

I mean, I think this has been the big tech.

What do I think about it?

Yeah, I do think.

Well, look,

first off, they've gone from $1 trillion in value to $4 trillion, which is the GDP of, I think, Spain.

Incredible prosperity, incredible potential.

We spent the first six or seven years arguing over which one of their leaders was going to run for president.

And they've been incredible vessels for the transfer of wealth from the rest of the world to the U.S.

But there's a dark side.

When I started, you mentioned the four, when I started writing that book, it was a love letter.

I was

people don't remember this, but I used to literally be the biggest evangelist in the world for these firms.

I thought they were just incredible.

And by the way, they say you were talking, you know, kind of decade in review, you asked me what I was doing in 2008.

I literally got run over by the recession.

And I know you're not supposed to talk about money because rich people create this dictum or this gestalt where you're not supposed to talk about money such that they can pretend that they're just following their passion.

It's like the godfather said, only rich people tell you not to talk about money.

But I had, at the end of the recession, I got run over.

I called my accountant and I said, how much money do I have?

Because at one time, you know, when I was much younger, I had, you know, what felt like a lot of money.

It wasn't a lot of money for where I was in my life and where the success I thought I'd achieved.

And I took all of that money and I put it into two stocks.

I put it into Amazon and Apple.

And those companies since then have gone up, I don't know, between seven and 12 fold.

So I want to be clear, big tech economically saved my ass.

And I started writing a book about them because I was so impressed with them.

And by the end of the book, after really understanding them, the book, as you know, turned into a cautionary tale.

And ever since then, I just get more and more disturbed.

But I am absolutely biting the hand that not only fed me, but save my ass.

There's been incredible economic prosperity.

But we, you know, the question is: have we opted for economic prosperity at the expense of income inequality,

at the risk of the weaponization of our democracy?

Have we lost all empathy?

Are we dividing into different cohorts?

Have we turned our backs on teen depression because of economic prosperity?

Have we been overwhelmed by private power where the government is no longer a countervailing force, but a co-conspirator, which is a key step to fascism?

There is a lot to be concerned about here.

It's been a tough day.

It's been a big shift.

You know, people don't realize this, but Uber didn't get found out until 2009 and Airbnb 2008.

And, you know, Facebook was, when I did that interview, he wasn't huge.

Like, it wasn't like he wasn't, he was sort of obviously up and coming, but they weren't dominant in the way they were.

And obviously, Steve Jobs was still living.

You know, he didn't die until 2011.

But, you know, there was a whole different kind of internet.

It was sort of in the, it was sort of a hopeful time.

It certainly was.

It absolutely was.

And we didn't see the seeds of what was coming in the middle of the Obama administration.

So it was sort of,

it's sort of fascinating to think about how quickly that had changed.

You were quite, that book in the four was, it was a love letter.

You're right.

That's exactly right.

Which is kind of interesting.

And I do think what it will be interesting to see in this next decade of what's going to happen with these companies and what will they continue to do this?

Do they understand the damage they've done?

Are they going to be, where is the room for the safe internet, the people who are going to create the good internet

and the possibilities?

And I think that's, I have some hopefulness about that.

It's like, who is going to do that?

And I do have some hopefulness that someone is going to figure out ways to remake some of these things so it's not just a continued sort of

you know,

transfer

from everybody to them.

And

I think that would be a great thing to have happen.

The only one that kind of looks like it right now, it'll probably be someone new, but I've come full circle on this is I think the only one that sort of feels a little bit like that is

your guy, Evan Spiegel, at Snap.

And I'm glad that they're doing so well.

And one-to-one communication is much healthier than this sort of group performative.

And you don't feel like you're speaking to someone, so you tend to be much meaner and trolls can bad actors can weaponize it.

It feels like it'll be interesting.

Obviously, the internet was the medium of the last 10 years.

I wonder what will, you're right, what will be the medium of the next 10 years and what impact will it have?

Or does it just continue?

Do we continue to more and more power and more and more of the spoils continue to just get concentrated?

He's an interesting character.

I'm going to do, he just talked to them this morning, actually.

I'm doing something for them at CES.

And then he's coming to code this year.

So it's going to be a really interesting.

I agree with you.

He's a really interesting character.

I'm looking forward to talking to him about that.

That's why I invited him because I want to talk about where it goes.

Instead of just bellyaching about the shit that Facebook's pulled on him, I want to talk about where things are going and where the safe internet is.

So

it's one of my things I want to talk about a lot in the next decade.

It's like, what are we going to make from this mess?

And what can all the players start to think about?

So anyway, big tech.

Big tech is the big story and realizing how much has changed in just a very short 10 years.

Number two, obviously politics.

This has been a pretty big decade for politics and presidents.

We've had two very different presidents in the past 10 years, Barack Obama and Donald Trump.

Couldn't be like polar opposites.

There's probably too much to dig in here.

But we reached out to Scott's friend and someone I admire very much, Senator Michael Bennett of Colorado.

He is one of the candidates for president, has been a senator for the past decade.

So we asked him about what he thinks about the biggest moment in policy this decade.

When we look back at the past decade, I'd say that a moment that stands out as one of the most important to me is the failure of Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform.

I was part of the gang of eight that wrote the bill in 2013, and its ultimate failure in the House of Representatives was emblematic of a crisis in our democracy.

And in many ways, that set the stage for Donald Trump.

It set the stage for Donald Trump's anti-immigrant screeds that he started his campaign with and the way that he's governed our country.

Well, I'd agree with him.

I would agree with him.

And I think it wasn't just the immigration reform.

It was taking, using tech to really get this message out in a way.

He had started it with the Central Park V.

You know, he had a history of doing this, but he really did sort of amp it up on using digital means to do this and including some stuff, you know,

breaking people apart over this issue.

It was a big element in the Russian disinformation campaigns.

What do you think, Scott?

Well, just, I mean, I'm very, as you know, I'm very impressed and fond of Senator Bennett.

The way I met him was his office reached out to me and said, the senator would like you to come down and talk to him a little bit about big tech and its impact on our society.

And I ended up spending a couple hours with him, and he was so fascinated with the notion of income inequality as it relates to big tech.

And he was taking notes, and you could tell this is a guy.

You just meet him, and

he, I don't want to say restored my faith in government, but he made me a lot more optimistic that you could just tell tell this guy was very committed to helping

others that

had really been hurt by income inequality.

You know, school superintendent, tremendous empathy.

You've noted that his demographic and his style are, the timing could not be worse for him.

Sort of a substantive, quiet.

You know,

he's not loud.

He's not dramatic.

His best tweet when he was, you know, he's still running for president or if the Democratic nomination was, elect me president, I promise you won't have to think of me every day,

that I'll just handle the North Koreans.

But

I think it's important for, at least what I found, is when you get to know a lot of our elected representatives, it does, I think it does, when you don't see it filtered through the lens of Fox or through an impeachment trial, it does in many ways restore your faith in government.

Me too.

I agree.

And he's a very impressive, decent man, and exactly who we would want representing us.

But yeah, I also believe, quite frankly, that

it's shown a light.

My senior senator here, Marco Rubio, basically, in my opinion, cut and run from immigration reform because he was pandering to his far-right constituents.

He's a panderer.

We had an opportunity to

basically, the fact that we didn't pass that regulation as Senator Bennett led to a lot of very divisive things.

And we don't like to acknowledge that, but the notion that somehow we woke up one day and there were 11 million undocumented workers here, we let them in because they're this incredibly flexible, agile workforce that we bring in to

farm our produce, take care of our seniors, help us in the service industry.

And the notion that somehow these people came over without our knowing, and by the way, it's been incredibly economic beneficial for us.

And then all of a sudden, we like, okay, let's demonize them now.

It's been very difficult.

It is.

I think Senator Bennett is correct.

I agree with you.

He's incredibly irredeed.

He's just really impressive.

I also went and visited him.

And just one of these, it does restore your faith in people when you talk to someone like that.

He's a very good public servant.

He's a very fine public servant.

But what do you think the biggest story is politically?

I think it is, you know, related.

Trump.

Trump is the biggest political story of the decade.

He just is 100%.

Trump signifies, and some people would say it's pregnant, but Trump signifies this undercurrent of anger and also, quite frankly, of bigotry and tribal nature that I think everybody thought had gone away.

and is still there.

And, you know, it just, there's just no getting around it.

The election of Trump, in my view, is the earthquake, the tremor, the seismic event, whatever you want to call it, of the decade.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, it's interesting to think about that sort of Barack Obama began the decade, and he almost feels zeroed out

in a lot of ways.

He isn't zeroed out, obviously.

It's in a historic presidency.

But

it's just really interesting, but how forgotten that is, like, in comparison of how outsized Trump's role has been.

And, you know, again,

it's a role that's been emphasized by tech.

Again, he's used tech really strongly.

He's used, obviously, not just Twitter and his outbursts and exclamation points and all caps letters on Twitter, but the Russian disinformation, the uses of disinformation to manipulate politics, the political ads, you know what I mean?

It's all been part and parcel to his success.

And the reality show television part of our world that we so love in this country.

It's all sort of been echoed and re-echoed and echoed.

It's been critical to his success.

Aaron Powell, Jr.: Yeah, and what will be interesting about moving into the next decade that it'll be so critical, we've had moments like this.

We've had incredible threats, but immunities have always kicked in, whether it's deciding to

enter Europe during World War II after the tremendous damage of World War I, deciding to put our manufacturing base into production, the embrace of civil rights, globalization.

I mean, there's just been so many seminal sort of, let's say, immunities that have kicked in to overcome what have been tremendous threats to our society.

What will be interesting is if in the next couple years or

just a year, if immunities begin to kick in against what is some fairly unhealthy and threatening things to our democracy, whether it's us or tech being weaponized by bad actors out of Russia or this general move towards autocracy as opposed to democracy.

Everyone accuses

the big story on the left or the big story that Trump has been able to promote with his 60 million followers on Twitter is that somehow the far left or that we're prone to being socialist.

And I think the bigger story is how the right has become much more prone to fascism.

And the notion that fascism at its core is extreme nationalism, refusal to condone violence and the demonization of immigrants.

I mean, if there was ever a playbook for fascism playing out right now, it would have...

it would have President Trump on the cover.

So I'm hopeful that as has happened throughout our history, that when we enter these dark times, that the immunities begin to kick in.

So I'm waiting on the immunities, Kara.

I hope it started yesterday.

I don't know.

I think tech does emphasize this.

It emphasizes this in a way that, you know, television did in a lot of ways with Joe McCarthy as he became drunker and more sweaty.

It was sort of like, ew, that's not us, right?

Like, I know it sounds dumb, but it's the same thing with Nixon.

It's just,

when is it going to help?

make it clear that this is not who we are, but we are this way.

That's the thing.

I hate when people say this is not who we are.

I'm like, it's precisely who we are.

We're also other things.

We're also good.

And we pulled back from Joe McCarthy.

You know, one of the stories that really affected me this week, I think think it was in the Washington Post, it was about the Tulsa massacre, as they sometimes called the race riots.

That's not what it was.

That, you know, they're using all this technology to find graves, of mass graves there over this, this, just was essentially murders of white people to this incredibly thriving black community in Tulsa called Greenwood.

And one of the things, I just was like reminded, I'm like, we're just awful as a people.

We're just awful.

And I was sort of fascinated by the debate that's going on about it.

And, you know, here's something, like, tech is not part of this, but it's being used to sort of resurrect something we should remember.

And the fact that I didn't know more about it sort of angered myself.

I was like, I should know about these things.

And hopefully, we can sort of start to unearth some of these qualities we have that we have to look at really hard.

So we'll see.

We'll see.

But you're right.

But Trump is unfortunately the

main politics thing.

When we get back after this, we're going to do more of the top decade breakdown, including women and diversity and leadership, streaming wars, and more.

Support for this show comes from Robinhood.

Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform?

With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs.

Trade all in one place.

Get started now on Robinhood.

Trading crypto involves significant risk.

Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto LLC.

Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services.

Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or CIPIC protected.

Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.

Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC, member SIPIC, a registered broker dealer.

Support for Pivot comes from LinkedIn.

From talking about sports, discussing the latest movies, everyone is looking for a real connection to the people around them.

But it's not just person to person, it's the same connection that's needed in business.

And it can be the hardest part about B2B marketing, finding the right people, making the right connections.

But instead of spending hours and hours scavenging social media feeds, you can just tap LinkedIn ads to reach the right professionals.

According to LinkedIn, they have grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, making it stand apart from other ad buys.

You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, and company revenue, giving you all the professionals you need to reach in one place.

So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads.

LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign so you can try it for yourself.

Just go to linkedin.com slash pivot pod.

That's linkedin.com slash pivot pod.

Terms and conditions apply.

Only on LinkedIn ads.

Okay, Scott, let's keep going on the decade in review.

Did you have hair at the beginning of the decade?

Or not?

Just curious.

No, I shaved my head in my early 30s so I could raise money for my startups at a higher valuation.

I actually have hair.

I had a ponytail in graduate school.

By the way, if you...

I need a picture of that.

You need to put that on the internet.

We need to see that picture.

Was it a ponytail with a comb over or just like a full head?

I was like a bad novelty act at a Chippendale's they would send out to like cool the girls down.

They'd be like, all right, they're out of control.

Send out Galloway with a ponytail to cool them down.

But wait, did you have a bald head and a ponytail?

Because that's all.

Oh, no.

And with a Corvette.

Okay, I was pathetic, but I wasn't fucking ridiculous.

You weren't gallant.

You didn't go gallant.

No, I had an actual hair.

I had a lot of hair.

My hair, believe it or not, granted, it was a low bar, but my hair used to be my best feature.

I want to see a picture.

Send, put a picture on the internet.

Okay, next breakdown, number three, women in diversity and leadership.

Huge decade for women.

There was a Women's March in Washington and the Me Too movement.

And there's more women in Congress than ever before.

All Democrats, pretty much uh so i think all democrats um so we reached out to a friend of pivot reshma sojani who is a founder and ceo of girls who code to talk about how women fared in tech and leadership over the last decade i think when we look back at this decade we're going to realize that this was the moment that we had a reckoning with technology and that women rose up look i mean i think we're at a tipping point right women aren't putting up with bullshit anymore all you need to do is look at the walkouts and the protests from the past year many that are inspired by me too,

and the fact that you have girls standing up every single day being change makers.

I'm hopeful that women and girls are going to rise up and they're going to lead.

And they're going to push tech companies to be better.

They're going to push tech companies to go back to reading their mission statements and to really reconciling the fact that right now they are out of touch with their values.

Yeah.

I think Reshma's more positive than I am about this.

I mean, there's a lot of things that happened.

There was, you know, Elizabeth Holmes got a lot of attention.

Obviously, Sheryl Sandberg, who had started the decade in 2012, she became the eighth member and the first woman on the Facebook Board of Directors, which took her a while.

It was long after she joined the company.

And, you know, then you had the Google walkouts over these issues.

You had the Me Too movement.

But then you had sort of a mess at Yahoo with Marissa Maire and not very many women CEOs and declining numbers of women in leadership positions at tech companies.

And not the case at media companies.

I think there's more women in charge there.

But

what do you make of this?

Well, I've always thought that as someone who was raised by a single mother, so when my parents got divorced, they were what I would call fairly equivalent on a balanced scorecard professionally.

My mom was more intelligent, but my dad was more charismatic.

But they both had been pulled out of school in the eighth grade, immigrated to America.

And my dad went on to be national sales manager of Owen Scott's and make a very good living.

And my mom went on to be a secretary.

And when you were in the 70s and you were a single mother with a kid, you could either be a travel agent, a real estate agent, or a secretary.

And I've always felt that the ism or the greatest discrimination in our society, and I saw this firsthand,

was sexism.

I still think women have it harder than almost any cohort.

And other cohorts and other forms of discrimination get a lot of attention, as they should.

But I think as we stand here and now, I still think that it's that the thing

that creates the most,

you know the bottom line is when they give money they've done experiments when they give money to the men the the the the brothel and the bars thrive and when they give money to women the kids get bigger and fatter right and that we the best thing we can do in society in my opinion globally and i believe with chris richens on this is to fully fund planned parenthood and make sure that women always have access to state safe

family planning and two to economically liberate women that that is still the the the means the fastest blue line path to a better world it's a hundred And the numbers keep decreasing.

I think there will be some reckoning.

I'm really looking forward to this Google investigation and how they handled issues around women.

I think a lot's going to come out about that, hopefully, and how the managers who were so feted did not handle these issues very well.

And it's something I do want to talk about, Sundar Pachai, who was not running the company during this decade, but now is, or part of the decade he's been running it,

and has tried to sort of clean it up.

But at the same time,

you worry about something like the Me Too movement in tech or media or wherever it is just losing its steam, you know, and that's my worry.

And then not having enough women, like you can criticize Sheryl Standberg or Marissa Mayer or Elizabeth Holmes or whoever.

It's just there's not enough women so that you can, some can succeed and some can't.

Like so much is writing on these women who are fallible human beings.

Well, I would, and just such that I, you know, I don't leave this segment without getting a ton of hate on Twitter.

I would argue that people will incorrectly look at the Me Too movement as the seminal moment in terms of progress for women.

I worry that the Me Too movement has entered a phase where we're now taking all agency and responsibility away from women, and we're starting to treat a lot of these situations as if the women are children and that they have no accountability or responsibility.

And I worry that over time that people will look back on it and think that it was not as beneficial to women as they'd originally thought.

I think the moment-I don't agree with you.

I couldn't tell stories, it is so critical.

The ability to tell stories is not taking away agency.

It's telling stories.

And it's not that they, that there aren't going to be like edge situations and things like that, but the ability to talk about your experience in the workplace, which every woman has, they have 10 episodes and some of them are minor, like stupid remarks.

Right.

Like, I guess we can let that go, but it should stop, but I guess we can.

I'm not suggesting we let it go.

And I think you're right.

And I think it was overdue.

And it's a healthy conversation.

It needed to happen.

I worry in certain instances that the media depicts any sexual situation similar to how we would treat any sexual situation with a child, that whoever's involved is guilty because children rightfully have no agency and they should never be in that situation.

And I feel like in some instances, the way the media portrays some of these situations is as if the women have absolutely no agency.

And I wonder if that is good or if there is a negative part of it.

But let me go on to where I think the more kind of underreported victory, if you will, or one of the most important things as it relates to female leadership and that is what is the one country that really, one developed country that really never had a recession?

It's a trivia question.

You know what country that was?

I don't know.

Is it Finland now?

Because that's like, I'm so thrilled.

It's being run down.

Donkey, baby, it was Germany.

Germany has been the economic engine of Europe.

Germany, and it's for a few reasons.

One,

one, manufacturing.

And I used to never, I never used to bind in the notion of how important manufacturing was.

But the bottom line is if you look at innovation, when you outsource manufacturing and making things, you do lose a lot of innovation.

Two, they've always had a lot of respect and appreciation for the dignity of work and boards are mandated.

Boards of directors are mandated that have representation from labor.

They really value the middle class there.

And three, I think they've had some of the most competent leadership of the 20th century in the form of Angela Merkel.

And

I think she's just an incredibly thoughtful, humble leader who's all about doing what's right for the German people, even if it means she's not famous.

I don't think she's

I think she's an inspiration.

And I think that's a moment we will talk about in 50 years as it relates to female leadership that gets, doesn't get the attention it deserves.

I think she will go down as one of the more important leaders of the last

50 years.

But I do think, I think the telling stories, I think Susan Fowler's essay and also Ellen Powell really did

telling their stories, they were not, they had agency.

They had plenty of agency.

And it led to like Travis's being pushed out.

I think that, among other things, it sort of led to like a number of stories about the behaviors there.

And so we'll see.

It's just at some point, I think people are on notice and that's the best part.

And even if they're a little scared for now, good.

Good.

They should be scared.

And so that's my feeling is that telling stories is literally the most powerful thing you can do.

And then you can't say you didn't know.

Like, that's to me the most important part of this.

You cannot say you didn't know.

There was a great story about something that was going on on the set of the affair.

Hollywood reporter Kim Masters did it.

Again, it was great.

It was well done, I thought.

Read that.

It was a really interesting question.

And I think it was...

It's how people perceive things in talking about sex.

Anyway, we'll see.

We'll see where it goes.

I don't perceive big executives and women executives in charge of these tech companies anytime soon.

I don't see it at all.

And again,

in this story that Bloomberg Business Week had about

the Vision Fund, it's an all-male management team.

All-male.

All dudes.

Nice.

Well done.

Anyway, number four, streaming, wars, and content.

Obviously, over the past decade, a lot has changed in the way we consume media and a story we definitely watch in the decade ahead.

So we got Richard Plepler, my favorite media.

You love Richard.

I love him.

He's so elegant.

The former chairman and CEO of HBO on what his defining moment of media was in the past decade.

I think when you're talking about some of the transcendent moments in American culture over the last decade, you'd have to begin in April of 2011 with the airing of Game of Thrones, which of course became

something of a cultural phenomenon.

Nobody knew that thrones was going to be thrones.

And it is, it's, listen, it's one of the grand intangibles when something breaks through like that.

And I think anybody who says to you that they either knew that that was going to happen or they had an instinct that something before it it hit the cultural nerve was going to hit the cultural nerve.

I think they're lying to you.

All right.

Richard, by the way, it's been reported he's starting his own production company and talks with Apple.

It's going to happen.

You know, he's going to be making more.

And I would be remiss in not saying that he also did sopranos.

So, you know, this guy has been sort of at the, has sort of really put a lot of stuff.

And I think the thing he's talking about is coalescing around good TV, that TV got so good in the past decade.

And I think TV used to be the idiot box.

Now it's the intelligent box, essentially.

So what do you think is the defining moment in these media wars?

I believe the defining art form of our generation in 100 years, when they look back, it won't be Damien Hearst.

It won't be, I don't know, the music that's coming out, although 80s music makes a run for it because it is genius, Kara.

But the defining art form is television.

There's more risk-taking.

There's more resources.

TV used to be, you know, the best show on TV used to be Cheers or MASH.

And now every night there's shows on that are much better, mostly because of resources.

But I think television is, you know, we tend to mock it.

And unfortunately, it's ruined, but less ruined by this, you know, this tax called advertising.

But I would argue that probably House of Cards was a more seminal moment because I think Netflix...

I mean, the bottom line is Netflix ate HBO.

And there was a lot of reason that HBO probably couldn't be Netflix because they had investors who demanded profits.

But I would argue probably the more seminal moment was when Netflix went into original scripted television with House of Cards.

Look, the streaming wars,

we started a world where HBO

and TV was getting, I think, a quarter of the budget.

It's now been featured.

I mean, just as FedEx and fulfillment has become a feature of a business that can monetize it through Prime, media is becoming a feature of businesses that will monetize their programming through Mandalorian dolls, theme parks, paper towels, or phones or iPhones.

So So the media industry

started the decade

with tremendous innovation.

And now it is,

I don't even know how to describe it.

It's being featured, if you will, or this notion that it's becoming a feature, not a product that's a standalone profitable business in and among itself.

And the next few years are going to be really crazy.

But television, the defining art form, House of Cards, Netflix, Reed Hastings was just kind of the, you know, the tech genius.

I know he gets talked about a lot, but he doesn't get the same amount amount of oxygen as these other guys.

Because again,

here's the thing.

One of the things that media has taught me as distinctive big tech and Netflix, or the contrast I take away from it, is that

social media, if you will, is nicotine.

And that is, it's addictive and it's not good for you, but it doesn't necessarily, or we don't think it gives you cancer.

It's the advertising, which is the tobacco that gives you all the carcinogens and the cancer.

And the reason why Netflix, which is just

as

important important or as penetrated or arguably has as much influence over people as a Facebook or a Twitter, the reason why it hasn't been weaponized, the reason why it isn't creating the type of damage is that it doesn't have advertising.

So for me, Netflix kind of shows that, okay, social media is the nicotine, but the real cancer of these business models and something we should look at is the advertising.

Yep.

Yeah, 100%.

Though I will say, I'm going to give it to Richard because, look, they had done the Sopranos, they had started with Game of Thrones much earlier.

House of Cards did not come out until 2013.

I think Netflix was taking from the HBO playbook

very beautifully.

100%.

And so I think the idea that television could be that good, you know, was something that I think HBO definitely pioneered completely.

And then they still do succession.

They still manage to hit it out of the park.

And managed to do that for a fraction of the budget.

They spend $50 or $70 million per ME, and Amazon Prime has to spend $350 million, and Netflix spends like $200 million.

The culture, the case studies that will be written by HBO or about HBO, I think will be more about how do you create a culture that is that productive, that is able to produce such incredible quality on what is literally a fraction of the budget of the other players.

And if

I were any media company, it's like if you're any basketball team, you watch where Michael Jordan goes.

I would be watching where Richard goes.

He's going to apply.

He's going to do it.

He's an independent guy.

I think he's been working for people for his whole life.

I met him when he was a PR guy, if you can believe it, at Time Warner and

at HBO, actually.

And he worked for Jeff Buchas, which was interesting.

But I have to tell you, I just think that wherever he goes, he's going to, obviously, it's been rumored and he's going to Apple.

You think he's going to do it?

He's going to make stuff.

You know, he's going to make stuff.

And I think

that's what's really important about executives like him.

That's why I like him so much.

He makes stuff and the stuff he makes is good.

Like, it's a pleasure to talk to someone who makes stuff.

I do think HBO missed a lot of the tech turns, 100%.

I don't know if he could have done it.

They certainly couldn't have done it within Time Warner the way they were.

But they've definitely missed the tech turns.

But in terms of ushering in this, like you wouldn't have Mazel, you would have House of Cards, you wouldn't have, you know, every fantastic, every single one of those streaming networks is due to what HBO started many years ago when it was called Homebox Office, when it started with just movies.

And so I think they didn't, you know, a lot of companies, they don't reap the benefit of what they did, you know, in a lot of ways.

And I think they're one of them.

So anyway, so, but it's, but it's going to be an interesting time of who's going to win.

Obviously, Disney's now here and doing a really good job My kids are watching Disney Plus a lot now, which is interesting and they've also moved to Apple Music from Spotify So it'll be interesting to see if the big guys can come back and reclaim their crowns in this area Yeah,

100% it will be the media has become whether it's you know whether it's a quote-unquote company masquerading as a platform that's really a media company, media and as you've said, propaganda has become this, it's become even more powerful and more important.

And we never realized that it could be weaponized to this extent.

But it's going to be, it's just almost sort of impossible to figure out where it goes from here.

But it's been a, look, it's been a great, it's been a great 10 years for what I'll call creativity around media.

And at the same time, we've gotten all this shitty reality television, which is, of course, brought us Donald Trump.

Anyway, so win and fail of the decade, Scott.

If you had to pick, could you pick one big win and one big fail of the decade as it pertains to tech and business?

I will go first if you like.

I would like you to go first.

I'm going to give it to Apple for, you know, Steve Jobs died in 2011.

And I think they've done okay.

Like they've done, like everyone was sort of like saying, oh, now Apple was going to die with him.

And I think they've done a really interesting job.

Now, people could quibble with stuff, but they've really grown in certain ways.

They haven't been.

crazy creative in the way you think of them, but I think they've really done it.

I think Tim Cook's done a very nice job of running the company.

And it's, you know, its valuation is huge.

It's gone up, I think, 70% this year or something like that.

And the big fail, even though it's a financial success, has to be Facebook to me and

the awful turn it's taken and inability to really recognize its need to be responsible.

I hope it does.

I have great hopes.

Just like Nancy Pulsey said about Donald Trump, I pray for Mark Zuckerberg that he will

begin to turn this company to a more dulcet direction for our society.

Thank you.

Wow.

So just as James Carvell said in the great movie Old School, when Will Farrell provided a response to a debate question and James Carvell responded, that was perfect.

I think he nailed it.

I think Apple's renaissance, I think all this notion that Steve Jobs was a Jesus figure and no one could run the company but Jobs and then this, you know, the first openly gay CEO of a Fortune 500 company quietly tripled the market capitalization and made Apple, I don't want to say relevant again, but increasingly relevant.

Apple is just, and then

open stores that totally

went into this dying medium, went vertical, created these temples for the brand.

As they realized that broadcast was starting to lose its effectiveness, transferred money out of broadcast advertising into $7 billion in leases, which was arguably one of the greatest unlocks in the history of business.

And then I think this dual-class,

young, broken sociopath and his $2 billion beard that have, in my opinion, levied more damage than almost any company in modern history and still get to decide what are the algorithms that present the content that nudge the population of the southern hemisphere one way or another.

I think Facebook is and Mark Zuckerberg are the most dangerous organization and individual alive today.

So, yeah, I think you, look, I think you nailed it.

Apple and Facebook, the wins and fails of the last decade.

They're the opposites, too.

They're kind of interesting because Tim obviously

has been outspoken comparatively.

What's interesting about Apple to me, it's kind of a win for the olds, because

by the way, they could have retired, right?

Everything could have just closed down after Steve Jobs died, and they would have been hits.

They had hit after hit after hit after hit.

But they continue.

That's what's amazing to me is this is a group of people,

which you have all there's all kinds of issues at Apple around workplace and things like that.

And they continue to have controversies surrounding their app store and things like that.

But in general, it's and you know, their taxes, come on, like they got a tax.

You know, he's sort of kissing up to Trump a little bit more than he should.

But

it's really interesting that this is an older group of people who've been together for a very long time and again, have had so many hits.

And I don't want to say it's like the Rolling Stones because I don't know.

I'm trying to think of what would be the rock, but like it just continues to make good music.

Like, it's really kind of fascinating that where you get that, when you're that rich and you've done that, had that much success, why you keep succeeding?

And so that's heartening as an older lady.

I think about fear of death, wanting to be relevant, wanting to go to St.

Bart's, party with younger women.

Do I need to go on?

Tim Cook doesn't go to St.

You'll never see Tim Cook at St.

Bart's.

I'm sorry to tell you.

No.

Okay.

That's not his gym.

He's a very simple man, I think.

I think he has a very, he likes football from Alabama.

I think that's where he went to college.

He talks about football a lot.

Yeah.

And he just loves Apple.

I think he just, I don't see that.

Like, he doesn't really strike me as, I mean, he has very nice sweaters, but otherwise, I don't see a lot of spendy spendiness from him um

but anyway it'll be interesting to see if if if zuckerberg can redeem himself despite these you know like they say i make a lot of money so what i must be right i don't that's not a good enough excuse anymore as far as i'm concerned good for you you built a great business by by by hurting other people.

And I think they have to really start to, it would be really lovely to see that in the next decade for him.

It's not going to happen.

There's about as much a chance of that happening as you getting me that rabbit coat you keep promising.

And not only that, it's dangerous.

That's true.

I have hope for Mark Zuckerberg.

This takes me back to a terrible and awful place when I was eight years old, and we used to go to the Mission Valley Mall in Laguna, Nigel.

And my dad would take my mom in, let her try in the rabbit coat.

It was $58.

It was coming for Christmas.

And before you know it, I'll get you a rabbit.

And before you know it, my dad is living with a flight attendant from Continental Airlines, Kara.

This takes me to a big story.

Mark Zuckerberg is not a good person.

I'm going to retire this story for the decade.

Let's put it away.

Let's put it away.

Let's find a district attorney that doesn't doesn't.

Let's have a little rabbit code funeral for you.

That's what we're going to do.

We're not discussing the rabbit code anymore.

It's not happening.

It's done.

We're done.

We're going to have a little, we're going to have a little

funeral.

You fodder a food presser, a food processor.

Listen to me.

And what a shocker is.

He's been married four times.

What a shocker.

Prediction.

And then we have to close.

We have a really good close.

Our parents are going to talk about us.

Speaking of our parents, speaking of that dad of yours, who you just impugned.

Let's talk.

What is your big prediction?

And then we got to to get out of here.

I got things to do, Scott.

I got my decade to live.

My big prediction?

Yeah.

Oh, my big prediction is that big tech is up.

I mean, I don't, my prediction for

2020 is that we're going to see

another 20 or 30% increase in the market capitalization of big tech.

I just don't see anything slowing them down.

I don't, I mean, the market might crash, but they'll outperform

any, those four companies or five companies will outperform every other sector.

I just don't see anything getting in their way right now.

Everyone keeps waiting for their fall, and I don't see it.

We'll see.

Oh, all right.

There you go.

So you have to be back to kissing their ass?

Is that what you're going to do?

Well, no, I think they're terrible people, and I'd like to see one or more of them in an orange jumpsuit.

But from a shareholder perspective, I just don't see

unregulated monopolies make great investments, and they continue to be unregulated monopolies.

And

I vote with my feet.

People say, well, it's hypocritical of you to be so disparaging of these companies and then to invest in them and finance their growth.

And my feeling is I'm a capitalist.

I don't want to be some professor and tie-dye barking at the moon.

Everyone has an obligation for economic security.

But effectively, if you did not invest in these, like these companies and Microsoft and Netflix and like, I forget what the other crazy performer was, Domino's, like it was the best performing stock

other than Netflix.

You've been kind of shut out from the massive increase in the S P over the last 10 years.

And I just don't see that changing for the next one or two years.

I think these companies are going to continue.

Every time I use them, every time I look at their moves, every time I see an Amazon van, every time I order something seamlessly

off of Instagram now, I think, oh my goodness, these companies.

They're just getting their momentum.

The flywheel, the mother of all flywheels, and the most valuable company in the world, okay, my prediction, the most valuable company in the world is AWS.

Once it's spot,

it's going to be the most valuable company.

Who can't own a share of AWS?

Who will not be able to not own shares in the biggest cloud company in the world?

Those are going to be the shares you give your granddaughter at the christening.

Those are going to be the shares that every pension, every alternative investment company in the world has to own regardless of the valuation.

So anyways, my other thing is AWS most valuable companies.

We're going to keep getting rich and insulting the tech companies.

Very nice.

There you go.

That's how the dog rolls.

He's completely.

Let me just then, let me use the opportunity to say, who raised you?

And we're going to find out in just a second.

Before we head out for the decade, Rebecca also called our parents to talk about how far we've come in the decade.

First, let's hear cameo from my mother,

Lucky Carney, Lucretia Carney.

Go for it.

Kara is her own person, as you know, much to my chagrin at times.

Yes, she was wearing the aviator sunglasses.

She was known for that.

She hasn't changed much.

I didn't think she would be as famous, I guess, as she has become.

Kara, I am so proud of you.

And while we disagree politically, I love you and I couldn't be more proud or happy for you at this time of your life.

Oh my God.

She always does this.

That's nice.

She's like evil half the time and then pulls something like this.

That's going to make you feel good.

Yeah, it does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I don't like her political things.

I do think Fox News has changed her brain.

I really truly do.

It's like, I'm going to, when she dies someday, I'm going to have it.

I'm going to donate it to science to see if there's Fox, you know, like CTE, there's Fox syndrome.

Yeah, but parents loving you and being proud of you.

That's 99% there.

You're 99%.

You can argue over the other one.

She always shows up.

My mother always shows up.

She always shows up.

I got to say, she looks good.

She looks good.

She does look good.

Now, a word from Tom Galloway.

Here we go.

The dad of Scott.

The biggest change I see in Scott is going to the other end of the way way he has changed.

His whole family life now is

like a little closed circle.

They don't go out a lot.

It's like a little circular group.

There's the yada, the boys,

and him.

And it's that little closed loop, like a family living in a prairie.

But Scott cares

very deeply for my well-being, okay?

And that he gives me

the benefit of his intellect

in helping me to see things clearly in my life.

He makes me take a step back from my impulses and look at things in a more balanced way.

That's unfair.

Oh, my God.

This is so manipulative.

Irish?

No, he's Scottish Glasgow, Sandy Hills, Glasgow.

Scottish Glasgow.

That's unfair.

By the way, that was clearly...

That was clearly the dementia speaking.

Dad, that's it.

We're putting you in the Happy Valley active living.

I didn't know your dad was Scotty from Star Trek.

That's amazing.

Yeah, that's him.

By the way, a Scottish accent and good looks.

No wonder he's been married four times.

You're a closed loop.

You're a closed loop.

I like that.

That's lovely.

Oh, look at that.

Look at that.

Your dad, you just insulted him and he said a loving and touching thing about you.

How do you feel?

You have all hearts, Scott.

I think that's what he was saying.

I believe that's what he was saying.

And you've become a great family man.

Is that correct?

Is that the correct translation of that?

It says the man who's been married four times.

Anyways, but yeah, that was very emotionally manipulative.

And I think we should move on or I'm going to start crying because you know I will cry.

All right.

Okay, I like when you cry.

I love when you cry.

I love when you cry.

It's so terrible.

You know what?

Also, you talked about the deck.

I don't know about you.

At some point, you'll get there.

I did not cry from the age of 34 to 44.

Now I cry all the time.

I've embraced the sloppy part of me.

I like it.

I like the sloppy, Kara.

Not me, baby.

I'm not going to be crying.

That was nice.

Nice you're still around.

How old's your mom?

How old's lucky?

85 or something, something somewhere in there.

Yeah, my dad's 89.

Yeah, anyway.

All right, Scott, on that touching note, it's time for us to go.

We're going to take a break for the last days of 2019 to reflect, but we'll be back in the next decade starting January 3rd, 2020.

Meanwhile, I like 2020.

It feels good.

2020.

It feels like fresh.

It's going to be fresh, Scott.

You'll see.

Things will turn around.

Meanwhile, you can reach us by using hashtag pivot podcast or emailing us questions at pivot at voxmedia.com.

By the way, we recorded a recode, Decode episode about our favorite moments in the podcast in 2019.

Listen to it on Monday, December 30th, before the new decade begins.

Scott, happy decade.

Yeah, likewise, Kara.

Congratulations on all your success and all the relationships in your life.

Thank you so much for doing this podcast with me.

It is a great pleasure and it's a great honor to do so.

All right.

And we will do more in the next decade in 2020, as Barbara, 2020, as Barbara Rausler says.

Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis.

Eric Anderson is Pivot's executive producer.

Thanks also to Rebecca Castro and Drew Burroughs.

Thanks again to all the friends of Pivot who lent their voice to this show.

Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from Fox Media.

Scott and I will be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

This month on Explain It To Me, we're talking about all things wellness.

We spend nearly $2 trillion on things that are supposed to make us well.

Collagen smoothies and cold plunges, Pilates classes, and fitness trackers.

But what does it actually mean to be well?

Why do we want that so badly?

And is all this money really making us healthier and happier?

That's this month on Explain It To Me, presented by Pureleaf.

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify.

They have the tools you need to start and grow your business.

From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need.

There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them.

With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into

sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com/slash special offer.