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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher, and we are back from South by Southwest.

Scott, where are you this week?

Somewhere else?

I'm in the public library in Aspen.

Why?

We're out here.

It's ski week for the kids, so I came out yesterday and

I'm going full house on the mountain.

Everything is full house.

I've decided that's my new term.

Full house.

Right.

Okay.

All right.

But why the public library?

Is that the only studio in Aspen?

Because when you have kids, trying to find a quiet place is near impossible, and this is what we've been relegated to: is the public library.

They couldn't be nicer here.

How is the public library?

When's the last time you were in a public library?

You know, just in general, when's the last time you were in a public library?

I like libraries a lot.

I go to the library in Del Rey.

I find the one in New York inspiring.

I think libraries are sexy again.

I think they're making a comeback.

Are they?

I don't know.

Like books.

Did you see that picture of all those supermodels carrying books?

Very interesting.

Please forward it to me.

Please forward it to my private text message account.

It's from the New York Post.

It's ridiculous.

It's so insulting to both supermodels and books.

Anyway, let's go through the stories this week.

Obviously, there's more serious stories.

There's a lot of huge stories.

So we have a lot to break down.

Obviously, the aftermath of the New Zealand terrorist attack that was streamed on Facebook is just one more horrific mess the company has to clean up.

I had written last week in the New York Times about the worst week ever for Facebook, and this was the day before the New Zealand attacks.

They and YouTube and others have tried mightily to clean it up, but it's still a giant mess.

And I'd just love to know what you think about that.

Obviously, social media played a role in this.

I don't know if it was the key role, but it was definitely a major role.

So, Karen, Germany might be a model here, and that is because of the history around fascism in Europe, they've decided that they're more comfortable violating the tension of First Amendment to try and put out or, if you will, arrest dangerous content before it goes viral, if you will.

And as a result, because they've decided the social media platforms incur greater liability if something bad happens as a result of content on Facebook and Germany, there are a lot more editors and screeners in Germany.

So

the bottom line is when you make these companies responsible and liable for this stuff, they figure out a way to put more people

screening this content.

And then the kind of the very basic question is,

if all the other media channels in the world have figured out a way to screen this content, specifically they pay people to put up the content and they screen it, why have we decided that these guys are exonerated from that?

Should we have a default notion that they are allowed because of the nature of these platforms to not screen or not be responsible for the content that ends up on their platforms.

Aaron Ross Powell, yes, exactly.

I think what's interesting is the question of that they have done a really good job blocking ISIS, for example.

There was a great story in BuzzFeed about this.

They've done a great job blocking ISIS.

Why can't they just take white supremacy or other areas like that and just do the same thing, just to make a decision on certain kinds of content?

And that'll, of course, you know, raise the hackles of free speech and that.

And, you know, I've been getting attacked for saying some things like this, but I don't care.

These platforms are not benefiting from this hate speech, and at some point they're going to have to make a choice unless they just want to be free-for-alls, and that's what they've become.

And so they could do it because they've done it with terrorist content or tried to really hard.

And so that's a big question for them, whether they just want to say, look, we're just not going to be for white supremacy, which doesn't seem to me to be that hard, or that whole,

all those memes.

We're not going to be a platform for it.

And I think that's,

we'll see.

I don't think they're going to do that, but they could.

They certainly, there's examples like in Germany or with ISIS that they have done it

relatively, you know,

it's just a question whether they have the guts to do it or they have the whatever to do it.

Look at YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook.

In terms of the Gestalt of management, who do you think is most serious about trying to address this problem?

Probably YouTube.

Probably YouTube.

I would guess.

The most serious?

I think they're the most concerned about it.

I think they know they've got a problem.

At least, you know, I do think Facebook is concerned about it, but

I think they are.

It's just, I think they don't know what to do.

There's so many, every answer is a bad answer, essentially.

Every solution has its own thorny hooks.

And so

that's a problem.

I think they don't, they're not, like I said, they're ill-equipped to handle these massive discussions.

And again, maybe the government will step in.

I don't know.

We'll see.

There's been, you know, there's lots of talk about that.

And it'll be interesting what happens.

I'd love to get an interview with the New Zealand Prime Minister who, like in two seconds, banned assault rifles.

Like, what does she think of the way these platforms were used by this terrorist?

And so

it's a good question.

I think it'll ultimately come down to regulation as it will.

And speaking of regulation, the admissions scandal, it sounds like a weird thing from all these murders to this, but

another really interesting scandal that happened

in this age.

And there were obviously more internet connections than you think because of videos by some of these kids and things like that.

But

it was really something.

I'm doing my kids' college thing right now.

So it sort of was fascinating to read about it and horrifying at the same time.

Yeah, there's so much here.

You have, whenever typically you have

this level of income inequality, you have these mechanisms for self-correction, and they're usually war, famine, or revolution.

And I think we're going through sort of a...

almost like a soft revolution where we're now shaming wealthy people who are basically Bob Dylan said that money doesn't talk it curses and basically this is an example of the wealthy cursing at the middle class because when Stanford only takes 4% of its applicants and every company within a 10-mile radius of Stanford has figured out a way to scale their product to millions and millions or billions of people, and yet Stanford has tripled the amount of applicants but hasn't increased their supply because they want to maintain the exclusivity.

We have a problem.

And who's getting hurt here?

It's interesting.

If you're an impressive kid who's overcome the obstacles of being raised in a low-income household, we're We're bringing as many or more of those kids into the university system as ever before.

Rich kids have no problem getting in.

There's 38 universities, top universities, including five Ivies, that have more kids from the top 1% of households, income earning households, than the bottom 60%.

The kids that are really getting squeezed here are probably the majority of the kids that we knew or grew up with, and that is kids who are good, but maybe not remarkable, don't have a patent for middle-class households.

So those are the ones that don't have the seats.

And while they're still going to college, what you're seeing across the board is that kids are going to less prestigious colleges than their parents.

And I don't know about you, but I can't be at a party where someone doesn't say, I would never get into, you know,

name of university, right?

I would never get into.

Oh, I wouldn't get into my college.

But here's.

I would never.

But here's the thing.

People say it with some pride.

And that's not a good thing because on a risk-adjusted basis, your kid might be a little bit less impressive than you.

He or she might be more impressive than you.

But most likely, they're kind of similar to you on character, academic achievement, discipline, which means they're not going to have the same opportunities as you because we have a caste system in the U.S.

It's called higher education.

Give me a kid's zip code, his family wealth, and most importantly, his certification or his pedigree in the form of a college degree, and I'm going to tell you how much money this kid's going to make.

It's an interesting question of how much, you know, because you know Silicon Valley doesn't think colleges matter at all.

I think a lot of people do.

I'm not so sure college mattered as much for me.

I have to say,

I'm weirdly in a Peter Thiel camp on this kind of thing.

I would have rather worked.

But I do think that the achievement

hamster wheel is really spinning faster than ever.

And you're right.

This is not, the game has gotten worse and worse for especially a certain kind of kid, for sure.

But it's definitely, it makes you think about how education should be done.

And why isn't Stanford open to more people online?

Why isn't why aren't these colleges everyone's dying to go to and cheating to go to

have different ways to present themselves.

It's an interesting, it hasn't, they haven't increased applications that way.

Disney has managed to triple the number of people who can come to their parks every year.

I mean, Google is now at 3 billion, but Harvard has decided, Harvard said, the head of admissions last year at Harvard said, we could have doubled the incoming freshman class and not sacrificed any quality.

And my viewpoint is well,

yeah, with a $38 billion endowment, why not?

So we should start taxing these endowments unless they grow their admissions or their seats faster than the rate of population growth because when you're growing your endowment faster than your public service you're not a not-for-profit you're a private enterprise and one of the biggest problems as i care as i look at the man in the mirror is that we academics at top universities have become drunk on exclusivity we now believe that we're luxury brands not public goods we brag about the fact that we turn away 95 percent of our applicants which is tantamount to a homeless shelter saying wow we're such an amazing shelter we turn away 95 percent of the people who show up every night.

This is not

a good thing.

No, it's not.

This exclusivity, this notion of turning away good kids such that only like freakishly good kids can now get into grade schools.

It's really a crisis in the U.S.

Because if you think about, and I'm really on my soapbox now, Kara, but if you think about

the greatest things, I believe, forces of good in society, I would argue that capitalism and the U.S.

middle class are right up there.

Turned away.

Hitler arrested AIDS, and the lubricant for the middle class is education.

And kids from the middle class are being squeezed out or squeezed down.

And it's they are.

These games are like, were you surprised by these games that these they're sort of semi-wealthy?

Because they're really wealthy to people who just buy libraries for colleges and then they go.

That kind of thing.

Like the Jared Kushner manner of getting into Harvard, for example.

But these little tricks were so weird and like complex.

It was, I was just, I can't even imagine.

I was talking to my kid about it and I was like,

what would you do if I ever did?

He's like, I wouldn't speak to you.

Like it was just, and all these kids are getting like thrown out, possibly getting thrown out.

And it's just the whole, the whole shmagegi is like weird as can be.

I have to say.

And I felt bad enough having my kid in like an SAT prep course.

Like, you know, I felt bad about that.

I was like, well, he's getting kind of an advantage, but, you know, I can afford it kind of thing.

And, and then they do this, and I'm like, oh, I don't feel quite that bad anymore for that, but I don't feel great about it for sure.

Well,

there's a lot of nuance here, right?

The back door, the people who give millions of dollars, I would argue that, look,

we live in a capitalist society.

Spoiler alert, the kids are rich people, do have an advantage.

And if someone gives $10 million to a university and their son or their nephew gets in, I'm okay with that because that $10 million will actually probably increase the number of seats available to kids who might not otherwise.

I do think there is a rationale.

And let's be honest, someone gives a lot of money to a university, they're going to get favorable treatment.

And I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

But when people, I mean, when you talk about people bribing coaches, and I mean, some of this stuff got so ugly so fast.

And just a shout out, you know, who has not lost the script is my alma mater, University of California.

I went to UCLA undergrad, and they got ensnared in the scandal.

And then Berkeley, the ranking of the 10 universities that have the most income disparity, the most people from the lowest quintile on up, seven of them are University of California campuses.

Berkeley will graduate more kids from low-income households this year than the entire Ivy League combined.

So there are still universities who have stayed true to their mission.

But we're going to have, this is going to, I think, require a lot of overdue scrutiny around: one, are we academics drunk with exclusivity?

And two, should tenure be banished, which is nothing but social welfare for the overeducated?

And three, should we be thinking about some sort of way to increase the supply of seats such that we can return to the 70s and 80s when I was applying.

Online.

Online is how you do it.

100%.

Or a hybrid, right?

Half online, half offline.

But we need to bring down costs and increase supply and stop thinking of ourselves as luxury goods, but as public servants.

Anyways.

Yes, luxury goods.

Thank you for that rant, Scott.

It was not as good as your South by Southwest rant.

There you go.

But we're going to take a quick break.

There were several rants there.

We're going to take a quick break now for work from our sponsors and come back with wins and fails and predictions.

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We're back to our show with Scott Galloway, who's in Aspen in some library, God knows why.

We're just talking about the college admission scandal, the situation in New Zealand, and the culpability of online platforms.

Now we're going to talk about wins and fails of this week.

You know, I'm going to go, I'm going to start with a win of George Conway.

And I know it's the stupidest, most ludicrous story of all time, but he's brilliant on Twitter and driving the president crazy.

Now, it may be part of some elaborate reality show to take our minds off this ridiculous budget that the Trump administration put through, or maybe the Mueller report, or any number of things that are headed this way.

But it's a really interesting use of technology,

both by President Trump against John McCain on the other side, and then whacking back at George Conway.

And one of my favorite tweets, and the Twitter sphere is fantastic on this.

I have to say, it's been very funny, is the idea that George Conway, who is the husband of Kellyanne Conway, who works for President Trump, Trump,

and John McCain have rented an Airbnb inside the head of Donald Trump.

And it's all being played out on Twitter.

And at the same time, the Devin Cow thing with Devin Nunes, who's suing Twitter, Devin Nunes is obviously a fail, but the cow is a winner, has now surpassed users on Twitter.

It's a silly, stupid, both silly, stupid things, but totally enjoyable.

That's hard to beat.

Well, you brought up earlier, Prime Minister,

I hope I don't get her name wrong, Jacinda Ardern.

You know, 49 people are massacred, and then a week later they say, you know what, we're going to ban assault rifles.

And they ban assault rifles.

They ban...

high-capacity magazines.

They ban the devices that turn regular rifles into assault weapons.

And the opposition party, that's generally a little bit more pro-gun, goes, yeah, that seems reasonable.

And they don't oppose it.

And within seven days, they kind of make, they bust this move to sanity.

And what's interesting is that the the entire world was fixated on what happened in New Zealand.

Yet we lost 40, 54 people were murdered at a country music festival in Las Vegas.

We lost 49 people in an Orlando shooting.

I mean, this is happening every six to 12 months for us, yet we can't seem to find the same sanity that New Zealand found in seven days.

So my win is.

Why do you think that is?

Is it, what do you think that's for, the Prime Minister?

Okay, what do you think that's because?

Americans being Americans or the way this social media thing creates these ludicrous things that are one after the next, after the next.

It's like a reality show, really.

No, I think it's because there are some very well-organized lobbies, including big tech and including the NRA, where they have taken advantage of the fact that because of Citizens United and gerrymandering and hard left and hard right districts, that effectively government has become pay-for-play.

And well-organized, well-financed organizations can promote or delay and obfuscate

sane legislation that even the

majority of the U.S.

is against assault weapons.

But we can't seem to get this done.

So I think it's money and politics that is the culprit here,

not anything that's about social media.

Not noisiness, because it's real noisy out there.

They're all using, it's so noisy.

The noisiness is really, and the ability to get sucked into this

bread and circuses, you know, like these ridiculous things.

It feels like that with a lot of this stuff, some of which are amusing, like Devin Cow.

I have to say, I totally enjoyed Devin Cow.

you do get sort of dragged into the

George Con, the Twitter war of George Connor.

I can't tell you how much time I spend watching, only because he's so funny and like he infuriates.

He's so your man crushed.

He is so your man crushed.

I do.

I don't know what to do.

He's so funny.

Come on.

You really love him.

Her whole narcissistic personalities and his responses.

Well, only because his responses are so clever.

They're like, I'm like, wow, where did he?

Like, he's one of these, like Ocasio-Cortez.

He's good at it.

And every day,

you know,

it's just like his little thing.

It's just his little, now he's moved into the Devon Nunes area, too, which is like even better.

And then every now and then he posts pictures of Corgis, which is like insane.

It's like really wonderful and awful.

So yes, I do love it.

I do.

I have to say.

It makes Kellyanne Conway seem more human that she decided to spend her life with this guy.

No?

Right.

No, you won't acknowledge that.

No, I know that.

But the whole.

No, I don't.

I don't want to know about the relationship.

I'm sure they're getting.

I mean, it seems like they're getting interested.

I know she defended Trump, which was interesting,

which is fascinating.

So another winner, our man.

Speaking of Dreamy, Betto Rourke, $6.1 million in the first 24 hours.

Isn't that crazy?

Whatever.

You're not down with Betto O'Reilly.

He is.

He's your man.

He's not my man.

Oh, my God, Dreamy.

Dreamy, I could shower in that guy's sweat.

I'd take Biden over him.

I'd take Biden over him.

You see the predictions about Stacey Abrams, who I adore,

being a possible vice presidential candidate for Biden.

That was interesting.

Yeah, it's not going to happen.

We almost never elect the third term of any one administration, and that's his strategy.

I don't think it's going to work.

I also think we're, I think his age probably takes him out.

We'll see.

I don't know.

They're all so old.

Beto, you and that Beto man.

Oh, my God.

That guy's, come on, dreamy with a capital D.

6.

That vanity fair cover with him and his sad-looking dog.

It's like, oh, my God, that dog is so sad.

Please.

He's going to be.

Whatever.

He's excited.

I thought Margaret Sullivan from the Washington Post had a great column, but the three B's, all the boys.

Yeah.

It was just so typical.

I'm going to move you on to something you actually know about instead of beto, which is the non-topic.

And if you bring it up again, I'm going to have to do something about it.

Streaming.

It's this Instagram

letting you buy things directly in the app now.

Instagram will keep a small cut of the sale for facilitating the purchase and it's partnering with PayPal to process the payments.

What do you think of this?

Is this an Amazon herder?

You know, Facebook's tried to get into commerce a zillion times.

Yeah, except this one's going to work.

This is staggeringly powerful.

Tell me why.

Because you take someone to the bottom.

It's the same reason that Amazon Media Group is so powerful because they can serve you an ad seamlessly right at the bottom of the funnel.

So if you have Huggies in your cart, they can say to PNG, would you like to run an ad for Pampers as they're about to check out with Huggies?

And the answer is yes, and they'll pay a lot of money.

When you're on what is effectively the conde nast of our generation, which is Instagram, and you see this beautiful image of a Manala Blanc shoe.

Conde nast of our generation.

You like that?

Like, like the old?

I like it.

I actually like it.

I think it's smart.

Yes, it's very smart.

Like,

you mean, like, the, I don't know, Vogue's full of ads, right?

The ads are what you're looking at.

Yeah, but not only full of ads, but

they're beautiful.

Condonast is able to bring together this unbelievable talent and make the ads, these Annie Lubovitz shots of Kate Moss in a moment in time.

And you think, wow, I would really like to buy that $90 fragrance.

I'm not sure why, but I'd like to buy it.

And if I could buy it right now in this irrational moment where I am moved emotionally, I would.

And Instagram is giving you the ability.

They're bringing together that kind of top of the funnel, beautiful moment in time and the ability to

buy it with a touch and it's honest.

Yeah,

you know, Glossier has done very well on there.

A lot of products have done.

They've also got stuff like opiate.

They've got to clean up some of the stuff they're selling.

But I have to say, I have thought about buying a lot of things on Instagram and not an ability to do it.

And so this is an interesting, I bet I would.

I bet I would.

No, I literally realized I had gone to hell and that social media had taken over my brain when I actually noticed, I saw an ad for a cruise and I thought, wow, a cruise doesn't sound awful.

I'm like, oh my God, I'm 105.

When a cruise doesn't sound like hell, you're like, okay, I'm 105.

I hate that.

And then, you know, I get sick on boats, you know.

Oh, God.

You have to take it.

I got sick watching boats.

Anyways,

and then where I really had gone to hell and back is all of a sudden, you know what I bought because I saw it on Instagram?

I bought a pair of all birds.

What is wrong with me?

I need an intervention.

I bought a pair of all birds.

Oh my God.

But have you seen how incredible the ads are, but creepy in a good way?

They're incredible.

I have never.

I like the guy who found all birds, but no, no, no.

Anyways, it's like you and every VC in Silicon Valley.

Love those things.

Anyways,

do you like your all birds?

Are they nice?

They're delicious.

They're super comfy.

Literally, I could wear these things everywhere.

But I like to signal.

It's lovely, Scott.

I like to signal.

I bet you and Beto could bond over all birds.

He seems like he'd wear all birds.

Between your lips and God's ears.

Between your lips and God's ears.

Bring it, Beto.

You know, I'm going to get a cut.

I'm going to get an interview with him.

And then I'm going to.

Oh, my God.

I'm doing Mayor Pete from Indiana soon.

I would be really excited to talk to him.

I'm excited.

He's so smart.

He doesn't wear all birds.

He wears sensible shoes.

Anyway, predictions, Scott.

Predictions.

Go ahead.

Add whatever you prediction.

We've been good on predictions.

We've been winning on predictions.

What did we predict?

We had a bunch that we were writing.

You predicted Amazon was going to leave New York 24 hours before it happened.

Yes.

But then there was another one we did last.

Someone was pointing to it.

I can't tell which one of us did it.

It was.

Oh, Facebook executives would leave.

Yeah, that's.

I think that was you or me.

We both agreed on that one.

That was good.

And they did.

Chris Cox left, and so did the head of whoever his name is, the guy who runs WhatsApp.

That was right.

That wasn't that hard to predict.

Think of another prediction, Scott.

I need a prediction from you, and then we have to get.

Well, my prediction is I think Betto is going going to jump out ahead in the polls.

I think that this is, I know, I know

you're going to hate this.

I think a white male is going to be the Democratic nominee because I think deep down everyone is freaked out.

The number one criteria for the Democratic Party will be whoever can beat Trump.

And I think people are freaked out that a woman spent a billion dollars to lose to a criminal and they're going to go safe and they're going to nominate a white male.

That one?

Okay.

A white male.

But he lost to Ted Cruz.

All right.

He lost to.

We'll take the other side of that zone.

I saw a hick and looper on CNN last night.

What did you think of Hickenlooper?

People think he's kind of a character, kind of a

in any other era, he could have won.

In any other era, that's what I thought.

I was like, in any other era, he would have been a very acceptable candidate.

But he wasn't exciting enough.

He tried.

He plays a guitar, apparently.

That was interesting.

Samantha B.

did a great rundown of the Democratic candidates, and it was very funny.

And she said that

the funniest thing I think that she said was that

Bernie Sanders should borrow Amy Klobuchar's comb, which I think.

How's your buddy Kamala doing?

I'll tweet it at this point.

How do you feel about Kamala's campaign?

I love her.

She's great.

She's my candidate.

I like her.

If I had to pick among all of them, I think she's strong.

I like a lot of them.

I like a lot of them.

There's several really good choices,

but not the one you like.

But that's okay.

I'll get behind whatever one.

But I would like one that could win.

I would like one.

What's your prediction?

It would be great.

Oh, this Mueller report is coming, right?

I don't know.

I think it might be,

I'm torn between it being a nothing burger and something really significant.

So that's where I'm torn.

I don't know.

I think people will be disappointed because a lot of the stuff has been out there in a lot of these indictments.

And so if it doesn't say that he like

did something just criminal, I think

it'll be a big downer for everyone and that Trump will take advantage of that and keep repeating his incessant lies about things.

Oh, I have a media recommendation.

It just popped into my mind.

I've been binge watching something called Afterlife with Ricky Gervais.

Is that how you say his name?

Yeah, I heard that's great.

Really, really wonderful.

That guy brings together kind of darkness.

It is really, it's a fantastic program, Afterlife.

It's really well done and really moving and funny.

All right.

Is that a prediction?

No.

The prediction that I'll like it.

I need a prediction.

You're going to enjoy it.

Yeah, Absolutely.

You're going to enjoy it.

I'm done.

It's the altitude.

It's the altitude, the altitude, and the edibles that are sold everywhere like Big Macs around this place.

All right.

Next week, we're going to talk about all these IPOs.

So you better start thinking about it.

Try to look at it.

A lot of stuff coming.

A lot of stuff coming.

A lot of IPOs.

Oh, by the way, just a quick shout-out.

Lyft was supposed to be $20 billion.

I'm finally hitting my stride as

we're running over here.

Levi Strauss and Company going public.

The Haas family, the original gangsters of progressive values, they were giving domestic partner benefits.

They were giving paternity and maternity leave before it was cool.

These are people who advertised their product as being about sex, drugs, and rock and roll, but these are incredibly decent people who had a, you know, kept the company private so they could, they could take, you know, walk the walk and through a lot of incredible expense to shareholder value, really implement progressive values around the workforce.

They want the money?

Well, it's actually a very interesting case study because Levi Strauss and company in the mid-90s, largest apparel company in the world, but it was a manufacturer's model, stuffing it through JCPenney's and Sears and then running great advertisements.

About the time people were spending less time watching ads.

So, who took over, Cara?

Trivia question: who became the biggest apparel company?

The Gap, who decided that brand building was moving to the stores.

And by 2002, the Gap was the most valuable apparel company in the world.

And now Levi's has made a nice comeback with more control over their distribution, great product.

Anyways, shout out to the Haas family and Levi Strauss and company going public.

A good brand.

All right, that's also not a good idea.

And good people.

Not a big picture.

Okay, the stock's going to pause.

No predictions.

The stock's going to I gave a very, very bold prediction that the Democratic nominee is going to be a white male.

All right.

Okay.

Okay.

We have to wait.

We've come to grips.

Get ready on your IPOs for next week.

We're talking IPOs this week.

I will study us.

We're ready to talk about that.

We will study us.

And the numbers that these numbers, the 20 billion, the 120 billion, that kind of stuff.

Yeah, Lyft's going to make it out first.

Crazy stuff.

Crazy stuff, Kara.

Enjoy yourself on the slopes with your all birds.

I hope you enjoy yourself.

You're perfectly dressed for Asma.

You elitist, you terrible.

All of those things.

I'm wearing tree torns that I resoll every three six months.

Anyway, it's time to go.

Thanks, Kara.

We'll talk to you.

Have a good week.

Thank you.

Rebecca Sinanis produces this show.

Nishad Kirwa is the executive producer.

Thanks also to Eric Johnson.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media.

We'll be back next week with more of a breakdown of all things tech and business.

If you like what you heard, please subscribe, rate, and review Pivot on Apple Podcasts, and please say what you think about Scott's new Allbirds.