The U.K. piles on Facebook

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Well, Scott, how are you doing?

Where are you calling from today?

I am what appears to be a closet somewhere in downtown Manhattan, and a handsome, bearded millennial just showed me to my closet.

And

I can see him turning red.

So he's not only handsome, he's humble.

And of course, my Sherpa, Rebecca.

This is all probably more information than you want to talk about.

Yeah, we have a lot of handsome millennials laundry around.

I'm in New York.

Bearded and handsome millennials.

Millennial and handsome is redundant because I find anyone under the age of 30 just kind of, you know, they all look just young and young and, I don't know, eager and nice.

Yes, they are.

They're very nice employees of Vox Media.

I am actually in San Francisco for a New York minute,

and I'm heading back that way via Vegas.

Vegas.

Vegas, baby.

You just couldn't stay away, right?

I couldn't.

I'm going to see Barry Diller, Dara Khosrashahi, and Andy Jassy at an event that I'm just going to do.

So, okay, I was wondering how long before the name-dropping would start.

I just did that.

A minute to go.

The reason I'm asking is because the topic is the power of platforms.

And I wanted to get your insight on what I should say.

And then we want to get into the big stories this week.

Like, what should I say to these people about the power of platforms?

I want a line

from you that I can deliver unto them.

I would just ask, I don't know.

The most powerful platforms are the ones that seem to get away with, have replaced profits with vision and growth.

And I would just ask Uber, have you re-changed the dynamic where, for some reason, losses are the new black?

What's going on here?

You're losing a billion bucks.

How can you

what about AWS?

Oh, Amazon Web Services?

Yeah, that's the guy who runs it, Andy Jassy, the most powerful thing you don't know.

That company will be spun by the end of 19 and be one of the 10 most valuable companies in the world on the spin.

I would ask him directly, what do you think of the idea of spinning AWS and why wouldn't you?

Yeah, okay, good.

See, that's why I dropped those names.

There you are.

I needed your help.

I need your help.

Let's move.

Speaking of dropping things on the ground, Facebook, there was was a trove of UK Parliament.

UK has had it with Facebook.

And they've released 250 personal emails.

And it shows that Facebook CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, used access to user data over the years to hurt competition.

Facebook said the...

the emails were cherry-pooked.

And again, Mark is responding on Facebook about the thing.

What do you think of this?

I mean, again,

and then Cheryl Sandberg was more pylon for Cheryl Sandberg, all over the place, and how she was responsible for everything.

Dual class shareholder stocks.

And so, talk about a lot of people are calling for the FTC and others to look into this.

You have a different take, which is unusual, I think, because you're usually a Facebook basher, I would say.

Yeah, I'm a big critic, bad for the country, bad for the planet.

But if you read through the emails, and I think you're writing a story on this, I don't know if it's in the Times or somewhere else, but I would argue there's no real news here, that the activity and the dialogue is somewhat typical of a company that is trying to crush its competition.

And I would bet there's emails like that at my company, there's emails like this at Vox.

And it's clear the trend here is everyone's piling on.

And if you look at the email that everyone seems sensitive to is the email around Vine, that the moment Vine or Twitter announced a six-second video, a product called Vine, they decided to basically shut it out of Facebook and turn off certain features that would make it difficult.

What they failed to disclose in all these stories, which gives you, you know, which lends this notion to people just piling on, is that soon before that, or recently before that, Twitter had done the same thing to Facebook.

Yeah, Instagram, right.

Well, they said they're not going to let they wouldn't let Facebook properties use their find friend feature on Twitter.

So there's nothing new.

They did a bunch of stuff, for sure.

It was back and forth.

There's nothing new here.

The thing that's interesting is that

it's not the competitive instincts and the full-body contact decisions that are part of capitalism competition.

The thing that's scary is that if you have one player that when they make those decisions, can basically turn the oxygen off in the room for any company.

And I would argue this just highlights a failure of the DTC and the DOJ, because if you have four of the five top apps owned by one company, they can kind of put their foot on the windpipe of almost any company trying to make a living in the app economy.

So I think it's a bigger issue, but I would argue Facebook and Mr.

Zuckerberg and Cheryl are sort of doing their jobs in these instances.

What's your take on this?

I agree.

I agree.

I was like, what a surprise.

Like people are like, oh, can you you believe they're using people's data?

I'm like, yeah, I believe it.

It's sort of like saying, can you believe Donald Trump sent something awful on Twitter?

It's like, yeah, okay.

And I think one of the things that people don't realize is how, you know, I was at an event last night and I'm going to drop another name, Sam Altman, who runs Y Combinator.

It was like this great new place called Manny's in San Francisco, which we're going to do a live podcast from there when you're here.

Awesome.

It's this new space for civic and political and

discourse.

And we were doing a lot of live podcasts from there.

And one of the things I kept saying to the crowd, they were like, well, should they have been better?

I'm like, they're a business.

Let's keep in mind they all kept the money and they're a giant business.

They're a business.

Stop pretending you're not businesses and businesses do things.

I think the issue is a lot of these companies,

you know, they sort of slather on the we're doing good, we're wearing hoodies, we're drinking kombucha.

And so

it hides the fact that they're just like Wall Street people or cigarette manufacturers or chemical companies.

You know what I mean?

It's the same.

To me, they make the money and they'll do what it takes to make the money.

They're not concerned with the condition of our soul.

They're not going to take care of us when we get older.

And the piece of advice I would have to some of our listeners out there just starting their career is that I've never understood the notion of being loyal to an institution.

An institution is an inanimate legal construct filed in Delaware.

You should be loyal to people.

But when I see people talk about making career decisions over their loyalty to institutions, I feel that's a construct, and I'm going to go way off script here.

I think that's a construct that's been built into our society, mostly so young people would go put themselves in harm's way to maintain the land of older, rich people.

But this notion of being loyal to an institution, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

It's like at NYU, they talk about loyalty to the university.

I'm like, no, you should be loyal to people that treat you well.

The institution does not exist, and

it's not going to

take care of you when you're dying.

I don't know how we got here, Kara.

Where am I?

I like it.

I like that you're going into the thing because, no, it's true.

I mean, you have to look at these companies.

I think people did put little hopes and dreams in them a little bit because they were not just

another thing.

There was actually a great piece in Pace this week that I liked.

And they go, they said,

there's a small elite bankrolled by really rich people.

The elite push austerity onto the public.

The public supports progressive goals and hates the elite.

That's the story.

These aren't two tribes anymore than Al Campone and his victims were tribes.

It's pretty simple.

There's a ruling class.

They like each other.

They don't like you.

That's the history behind every Bush and Michelle Obama picture or what.

And it goes on.

And it says, privilege looks in the mirror and calls it, calls the site beautiful.

And it was really true.

I was like, these people are just powerful.

That's poetry.

That's poetry.

Anyway, speaking of powerful and people getting increasingly richer, Lyft apparently has done its confidential IPO filing thing that they all do.

I don't understand.

What have you heard?

That was big news.

It feels to me they're just trying to say, I'm first, I'm first.

They have to be first.

They have to be first, right?

I mean, analyze this, please, because I think if they, if Uber is going to go out, obviously, but they've got to go out before Uber.

Well, you got to give Lyft props.

People thought the game was over.

Just say, you know, Lyft is one of the the greatest.

I don't want to even comeback stories, but carving out a niche.

I think

probably the best example of that is I thought that the voice game was over last year.

Alexa had 70% share.

And then Google came in and carved out 20, 25% share in just 12 months' time.

But

I would say kind of four or five years ago, we thought the game was over, that it was Uber and the seven dwarfs.

And Lyft has carved out a nice niche, mostly through, I imagine, good execution and some of the missteps on behalf of Uber.

But I don't, tell me what is the difference between Uber and Lyft culturally, economically, business model.

What is the difference?

I don't think they have a moat.

You know, I talk a lot about moats.

I think we've talked about it, the idea that Amazon has built all these moats.

I'm not so sure.

Uber has a brand moat.

They have the credit cards.

Those are the two things they have, right?

And it's a brand that people know.

So that's not nothing.

That ain't nothing.

And they have the credit cards and the relationship.

And they're like a utility and they work well most of the time.

Both of them work well.

And so I think it really is just getting the driver satisfied, getting the customer experience down but i i think it'll be harder for lyft to compete but the fact of the matter is they've got to go public before uber does in order to get out into the markets and what do you think these companies say they do get public it'll it'll set a proxy for the valuation for uber which i can't imagine is going to be anywhere near the 120 billion dollars their bankers yeah especially with the recent announcement of the losses the billion dollars in losses a quarter that's a lot of money but do you know the guys

a lot of saudi money talk about there you go talk about the management at Lyft.

We always talk about Dara.

We always talk about Travis.

Who are the key players at Lyft and what's your impression of the culture there?

John Zimmer, for example.

They're really

earnest comparatively.

They come from a much sort of more hippie, I don't use the word hippie, that's another word, but you know what I mean.

They come from a

very sort of wanting to save the world background

kind of thing.

And so I think they're different.

I mean, because, you know,

Travis was

very, it's John Zimmer and Logan Green, the two of them, and they were the founders.

And so they came out of this thing called Zimride, which is a rideshare company that they founded in 2007, I think.

And so it's a very different mentality.

It's a very different company.

And you, and John Zimmer and both of them are lovely, like the literally polar opposite of the Uber, the original Uber people.

At one point, I think it was John, it was at a party and I was sitting with a bunch of people and he goes, he starts to, it was very early on in the stage of the company.

And he starts going, you know, what's really amazing?

80% of the cars are not in use.

And that's just wrong for the planet.

Cause, you know, one person sits in a car, like, and there's five seats and whatever.

And I was, and, and he's like, and 80% aren't in use.

And we really just want to help the planet by filling those seats and this on and on.

And he really meant it.

Like, it was really something.

And he walked away and one of the CEOs there goes, Travis is going to kill him.

Right.

Right.

Poor little, poor little cute thing.

Oh, man.

But they proved to be very aggressive and made some changes, I think, that are necessary there to be a little tougher and get away from this sort of softer side of ride sharing.

And even in their headquarters,

the last one they had that I was in, they had like soft, squishy things coming from the ceiling.

And like, it was super comfortable.

And there was like a bro brewery, but it was nice.

Ladies could go, that kind of thing.

And compared to the Uber headquarters, which looked like a bond villain, like that,

if you didn't put your feet on the sides of the elevator, the floor would drop out and you'd end up in a shark tank.

So it was a very, very different people.

I like them a lot.

I like that.

I'm telling you, I've said it before, Kara, but if you ever need a quick pick-me-up and you're feeling depressed, which for me is, I don't know, every 30 or 40 minutes,

just roll up to a crowded place with a bunch of young people in your car, roll down the window and go, Uber?

And see how many people instinctively just roll up to the side of your car.

It is so.

That is a terrible thing.

And I I think terrible things have happened that, but thank you for that.

Please don't do that.

And see who gets to that.

I'm not going to bail you out of jail.

Let's go.

See who gets you.

Oh, you are definitely my second call.

My first call is to a lawyer.

By the way, I get, so now I'm boasting.

I get calls from people who I get calls from jail.

I think it's because people think I'm discreet and I have access to cash and they're right on both, but I get, I'm the guy my friends call when they end up in jail.

So you should know that.

You should have me on speed dial.

Okay, good.

I have to say something.

I got speaking of people calling you, I got so many people coming up to me at this event last night and all this week, how much they love you.

I'd have to tell you.

Go.

Sorry, I didn't hear that.

Go on.

What was that, Kara?

What was that?

God, that's Scott Galloway.

I've been calling him.

I was at a, we did a live podcast with Chuck Todd and others from Andrea Mitchell and Hallie Jackson from NBC News.

And then last time we did Sam Austin.

What's Todd like?

He's from Miami, which really shows you.

Just like you'd imagine him to be.

Really?

He's just, yeah.

Go listen to the podcast.

It's good.

Andrea Mitchell's the hardest working person in journalism, and Allie, Allie Jackson really throws it down.

It was good, it was fun.

But Chuck is Chuck's got a lot of opinions, and he's great.

I like, I like bantering with him, but you had a lot of fans in DC, Scott.

You have a lot of fans everywhere.

Carol, where can we find the NBC podcast?

You can listen to it on Recode Decode.

There you go.

All right, when we get back, we're going to take a quick break.

And when we get back, we're going to talk about wins and fails of the week.

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We're here with Scott Galloway.

This is Kara Swisher.

This is Pivot.

Scott, wins of this week, wins or fails?

Well, I would go with a win.

And I think that the legacy of George Herbert Walker Bush and

taking some time and some pause to look at the patriotism, the service, the fidelity, the dignity, and I think more than anything, just the humility.

I thought the kind of really interesting thing was,

you know, he said, he was very deliberate and he said, oh, no, we're inviting the president because it's the right thing to do and I don't want him to be miffed.

And I thought, after all, they've been through with this guy, you know, it just would have been so easy for them not to invite them.

And the McCain funeral, while an incredible funeral, it felt like the majority of that was sort of them having the last word.

Right.

Whereas this was very much, I mean, here you have, okay, first off, George Bush, right?

Youngest pilot in the history of the Navy.

18 years old, decides to get in a, I don't know, P-53 Thundercat, flies 58 combat missions, is shot down over the middle of the Pacific, somehow gets out of the plane, inflates a raft, and is sitting in the raft and then probably comes to the realization that he's going to die of exposure.

And then a submarine emerges, and then you got to hope, gee, I really hope that's one of our submarines.

Right.

And the guy is pulled out of the water, you know, married for 70 years,

Americans with Disabilities Act, Clean Air Act, managed to get these things done with both houses of Congress controlled by Democrats, passed more legislation than any president with the exception of FDR and Lyndon Johnson, but did it in four years.

Just a reminder of some fantastic values that we aspire to and our leaders and also kind of a start, also a disappointing reminder that a lot of those values seem to have slipped away.

And so

I thought it was very, very moving.

Yeah, I wasn't a big fan of that whole era.

I have to be honest with you, the whole Reagan.

I was at Georgetown at the time.

And so I was more, you know, being just recently out, the whole AIDS thing was still disturbing.

I know he did turn it around a little bit, but that whole, he was still part of the Reagan administration that uttered.

Reagan never mentioned Reagan never uttered the word in eight years.

I know that.

And I know you shouldn't be just an identity politics thing, but people were truly dying then.

And it was really appalling what was happening there.

So I always, that always tinged with that with him.

And also some of his, you know, it's sort of like some of the mishaps, right?

So it's, but, but you're right.

I mean, a lot of mishaps, what are the mishaps?

Same way.

Oh, just the way his his verbal gas.

And it just, you know, it's sort of out of touchness of the elite.

Again, it was sort of like, here we are ruled by our Yale going leaders kind of thing.

So I did, I did always enjoy Barbara Bushism.

You know, that was one, she was one of my favorites.

And she just died also this year.

It's me remiss and seeing.

They both died in the same, I think, the same year.

But she was, I liked her thing because she would pop off with something awful and I loved it.

That was, that was my, I liked her a lot.

Look, it's an impressive family.

And if you hear, if you ever talk to people that know Jeb or speak to George W, I think W will go down as probably, you know, the hard rock hall of fame of tragic or catastrophic geopolitical decisions.

But people say he's actually a very decent man.

That's a new thing.

They're decent, but they ruin the world.

I'm sorry.

People who work for Jeb love him.

So this is,

these are, you know, George and Barbara.

He's a lovely guy.

George and Barbara, you know, sort of of their blink in the universe mattered.

They raised good, responsible children.

And even though I think the marketplace, and I think this is right, he said, we're not comfortable passing the mantle of the presidency between fathers and sons and husbands and wives, which I think is actually a good thing.

This is an impressive family, and the patriarch passed away.

I was just very moved by the whole thing.

The image that will really stick with me, and it was on Twitter, was Bob Dole having someone, these guys

lift him up, and then him giving his salute to George Wood.

I thought that was really powerful.

Yeah.

Again,

I do have admiration for George Wood, although it was to me, like it was a quainter version of awful, like the conservative, the awful conservatism.

It was a quainter, less, less dangerous version of what's happening now.

In some ways, I kind of like to just see it out there in rapacious, in the rapacious ways.

And for example, Trump today saying, you know, apparently he said,

I don't care about these deficits or whatever, because I'm not going to be here.

Right.

Like, all presidents think like that.

He just said it.

And I'm sort of like, all right, you're an asshole.

Thank you for confirming.

You know, in a lot of ways, even though it's an awful sentiment, it's something that all of them behave like.

Yeah, I don't know if anyone's told him, but his kids are probably going to be around for a while.

By the way, strongest economy in a long time, and we're exploding the deficit.

What passes for bipartisanship is reckless spending, right?

Republicans want tax cuts and military spending.

Democrats want

social programs.

And then occasionally we decide, I know, let's do it all and let's fuck future generations.

It's literally like we're speaking to the future and saying, fuck you, I want mine and I want it now.

Speaking of saying dirty words, too much.

No, I like it.

I like it.

No, Michelle Obama disagreeing with Sheryl Sandberg on the lean in.

That shit doesn't always work.

Yeah.

That was interesting.

That was.

That was, and it was a new color for Michelle Obama, who tends to be always the diplomat.

She is.

I was thinking, when they go low, we go low.

Sort of, she's the one who said that.

She's a super.

What do you think?

Do you think Michelle Obama?

Do you think she has a future in public service?

Do you think anything?

I don't think she's running.

I think she likes being Michelle Obama.

Yeah.

I think she likes, I think the, I think, why would she do that?

Why would she subject herself to that?

She's, she can be influential.

I think she's, you know, the book is the most, I think it's the top seller of the year.

People like her.

The minute she enters politics, she gets done.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like it all goes.

It all moves off.

And

I don't, you know, I think she's perfectly competent to do it.

It's not, not, it's not like,

it's not that.

It's that she's, if you were her, like, is this what you want to spend the next 20 years of your life doing?

100%.

Because it'll be 20 years.

So, and, you know, she's already done it.

She's already been there.

I don't know.

I don't know.

She doesn't seem to want to do that.

Anyway,

next thing,

predictions.

Scott?

Predictions.

So I think, oh, I have a couple.

One,

I think Ms.

Samberg will be gone within 12 months, but it'll be her idea.

I think they're hoping this dies down.

And I think she's going to announce that she wants to go run a foundation or

talk about service.

But

I think she's done.

I think she's gone.

But it'll be disagree with you.

You think she's around in a year?

Yes, I do.

Okay, we'll bet.

I was with some Facebook people last night.

I don't think she's going anywhere.

Really?

Mark has to kill her.

He's not going to kill her.

He's not going to throw her under the bus.

It's not going to happen.

Huh.

And

my big prediction is:

I talked about the AW spin already.

Another prediction.

I think that Amazon is going to start making the kind of the business story of 19 and innovation is the movement of big tech into healthcare.

And if you look at industries and the kind of the disruption index in terms of what industries are most disruptible, if you just look at the price of the underlying service relative to inflation.

And with the reason Facebook and Google were so successful is the media industry kept raising its prices faster than viewership.

And this disruption or this unearned margin of profitability, they stuck their chin out and Google and Facebook were there with kind of fists of stone.

So you need this industry waiting to be disrupted that consumers don't like and that's fat margins and is just charging too much.

And there's nothing that is more disruptible right now than healthcare, which I think is now 18% of our economy.

And I was asked, I got a call from a, I won't use his name, but an iconic kind of globally famous investor.

And he said, which of these four do you think, and I'll turn the question to you, I'll get my answer, would be most successful moving moving into healthcare?

And I said, well,

the easy last place is Facebook.

No one's going to tell Facebook they have diabetes or an STD.

Right.

Number three, I think, weirdly enough, is Google, even though they're great with data, my sense of their health condition is changing.

It's been kind of these moonshot CSR things, cured death.

Yeah, they just don't want to die, Scott.

That's really cool.

Yeah, there you go.

That's the problem.

I'll be so ready when that swings around, hopefully in 40 years.

Anyway, that's probably.

Yeah, that's not going to happen for you.

You don't get to not die.

Yeah.

And then

from what I understand, the mortality rate is still 100%.

So and then number two, I think, is Apple.

Most people would pick Apple as number one.

I think the data they collect from all the wearables is inflated in terms of its importance and its utility.

And they don't have the core asset you'll need to be a player in healthcare.

And that is their investors like profits.

So the company that I think is going to go after healthcare and just scare the shit out of everybody when they start peeling off the most actuarily appealing households in America and insuring them.

I think they're going to go through the insurance store is Amazon because they know I agree with you on this.

They know your body.

They know your body mass index based on the size of the clothes you order.

They know the food, how healthy your diet is.

They're pretty soon going to know the farm cynicals you're on.

They're going to know if you're in a monogamous relationship.

They're going to know if you're wealthy.

All the things that indicate you're in good or poor health.

And what they'll do is they'll offer over Alexa.

They'll say, hey, Prime member, would you be interested in exploring a way to cut your health care costs in half with Prime Plus Insurance?

And they will literally take the healthiest, most profitable, or least expensive households off the table.

And we are going to freak out.

Yeah.

I think that's really, I think you're right.

I was, they could do almost anything.

They could sell it.

I was just thinking the other day because I had another mishap that I with Home Depot and stuff that I tweeted about.

And I literally could have gotten Amazon to deliver it.

You were at Home Depot.

Home Depot and I had a disagreement, but they did handle it well in the end, but it's because I tweeted to all the people, but

actually, well, lots of things went awry, but

they, but I, when I was doing it, I looked on Amazon.

I could have gotten it in two days, and I know it would have been delivered beautifully.

And I thought, I just, I didn't pick Amazon because I didn't want to give them every bit of my business.

That's, you know what I mean?

Like, I was like, I can't let them be fantastic again.

And because there's so many stuff now coming out about

the toll on these delivery people, the toll on the people that pack it.

There's so much, you know, it's sort of like these, you know, I don't, I don't want to compare this to like a Harry Potter movie, but Dobby, you know what I mean?

there's all these people working under the hood at these places that are suffering in a way that we don't even think about

nice nice potter reference but i have two questions and the first is

first off i want to ask her as a point of personal privilege to give home depot another chance they're an outstanding organization with great management team and i think they're fantastic at what they do and it's really nice to see a big retailer actually succeeding in the world of amazon so i think your instincts to go to home depot are really strong well i tried they they ended up breaking my garage but i won't go into it

There you go.

There you go.

Karma, karma, karma, karma chameleon.

So the last thing, I will do that.

Are you on the board of Home Depot or something?

No, but I like those guys a lot.

The golden aprons.

I know the guys in digital there, the CEOs, just like an earnest.

You're always wandering around with drywall, I'm sure, right, Scott?

That's your dream.

I seriously am the least handy person you've ever met.

It is.

This comes as zero surprise to Carazon.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm very handy.

I go into a Home Depot and it's seriously, I might as well be on the moon.

I don't even know what's in there.

I can't even recognize that stuff.

People buy wood and lumber there.

I'm like, where are they taking this stuff and what are they doing?

What are they doing with this wood?

They buy drills.

And I'm like, well, do you have to plug this thing in?

What is this?

You know what I'm getting you for Christmas?

It's where's the battery?

I'm getting you a tool belt, Scott, for Christmas.

That's the plan.

Well, I can get a little tiny little hammer for you, a little screwdriver.

It'll be nice to practice and wander around.

Oh, wait, my question.

You brought up the poor treatment of Amazon workers and things that are coming out.

My question is this.

Do you think this is unique to Amazon or have we just been sort of?

They should be three times as nice, I think, you know, and three times as fast forward.

Isn't it just coming to light that the kind of minimum wage workers all across America get treated like shit?

Yes, this is what my point was at the beginning is their businesses.

They don't care.

You just don't.

100%.

Speaking of predictions, we're going to play on the show of Recode Decode this week a tape of my son Louie and Casey Newton talking.

I want you to comment on this, predicting socializing will happen in private groups rather than on social media.

I have a hot take about social media.

Yeah, so in 2019, I think 2019 is the return of the group chat.

If you talk to people about the kind of social interactions they actually like, it's group text, whether it's an iMessage, whether it's on your Snapchat, talking to a small group of friends, you know exactly who's there.

You can share your in-jokes.

You don't have to pose for people.

You can just be dumb.

There's none of this pressure.

If you use an app like Snapchat, all of those chats can just disappear.

They're not going to haunt you forever.

Or maybe you just use iMessage and it's end-to-end encrypted and you feel like you're probably going to be fine.

But I think increasingly, more and more people are just going to want to group chat and not worry about the rest of everything that social media has to offer.

What do you think, Mr.

Swisher?

I agree with that.

Wow.

So what do you think, Scott?

What do you think about what Louie and Casey said?

So anything your son says, I'm inclined to agree with.

But yeah, I think what you have is I think young people are actually more aware of the danger and

kind of, I think it's drilled into them earlier and more often that your digital record goes on your permanent record.

And if you want to have a conversation or you want to express anything a little bit off color or more aggressive, it should be done in small groups.

Now, but what, can you expand on on what he meant by the socialization that takes place in groups and not online?

Well, this was Casey's idea, and I think Louis agreed with it, is that he was, he actually, Louis went even further.

Casey said that he thought that you wouldn't be in these larger groups, that you would be in these small, the group chats.

And it's more, you know, it's happening on a bunch of places like Instagram and other places.

And Louis made the example.

He was in Cuba, and he uses Snapchat, which you can't use there.

He was there over the holidays.

And he started using the Instagram group chat thing.

And he was like, it was so uncool to use Instagram to talk to my friends, which was interesting.

But he was talking about the idea of being just an,

he likes Snapchat and the concepts around it.

And so he said even more so.

But then he went a step further and he said, well, you know, what I'm really interested in is analog, talking to people in person.

And I was like,

what a concept.

Yeah.

And so they definitely are a warrior group.

You know, my other son is just starting to use,

he texts a lot more, which is interesting.

How old's your youngest?

13.

he does i mean he knows how to use snapchat and stuff i'm pretty sure he's texting um and he uses he uses uh his video games to talk to his friends like they're playing at fortnite and then they talk then they have a social time telling you be careful with fortnite be careful with fortnite it is scary my kid literally during the weekend we he was doing he did does well in school and as a reward we said we'd like to let you play fortnite because all of his colleagues all of his buddies play in their class and i'm telling you that we gave the kid crack.

It's just no, really?

Interesting.

I don't know.

My kid does really well in school.

Oh, my gosh.

All weekend long, we'll be on the beach, beautiful day, boogie boarding, hanging out, running around with the dog.

And he's like, Can we go home now?

Can we go home now?

No, no.

It's because he's thinking about Fortnite.

Well, it wears off.

That's my kids were like that, and then it wears off.

They don't stay at it.

Yeah, I think this addictive quality has.

I think it's a phase that'll grow out of in about 70, 75 years.

No, stop it.

No, my kids aren't using it as much, but they like it.

They still like it, but they're not using it as much.

But it's interesting, is a lot of what they like about it is the socializing, I think, about the way they are doing as much as the games.

And they like, actually, it was really interesting.

I had a bunch of them, 13-year-olds over, and I was asking what they liked.

And a lot of them like the stories in them, like whatever they are, like the historical stuff and this and that.

You know, that there's every one of these things has a different story, and they actually enjoy

the French Revolution.

One of them, the Assassin's Creed, I don't know.

They're playing, you're like, Cara, I like the historical stuff.

stuff.

Where can I go kill someone on screen?

No, they do.

I'm telling you, they do.

They like the stories.

They like the stories, which is these video games have gotten to be really interesting in terms of stories.

I don't think it's the way to learn history.

I'd rather they read like

historical tones.

It's all right.

Do you bond with your kids over media?

Do you play video games or watch?

No, I don't play video games.

We bond over cooking.

We won over cooking and talking

debating.

That's how we bond.

And going out and wandering around.

Anyway, this has been a great week.

Thank you for hosting.

We will have all our kids on the show.

Maybe we'll just do the show.

That'd be nice.

Yeah, I think that would be good.

So next week

we'll have lots more to do to talk about.

I think there's going to be Google coming to Congress, I think, next week and stuff like that.

That's right.

There'll be plenty for us to chew over.

Anyway, Rebecca Senanis produces this show.

Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Thanks also to Eric Johnson, who's sitting right across from me in my kitchen in San Francisco.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media.

Join us next week for more of a breakdown on all things tech and business.

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