Making a Monster

Speaker 1 Radio Lab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?

Speaker 1 Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

Speaker 1 Potential savings will vary, not available in all states.

Speaker 3 WNYC Studios is supported by ATT, offering a guarantee covering both wireless and fiber internet service that is all about having your back. Staying connected matters.

Speaker 3 That's why ATT has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right. That's the ATT guarantee.
Visit ATT.com slash guarantee to learn more. Terms and conditions apply.

Speaker 3 Visit ATT.com slash guarantee for details. ATT, connecting changes everything.

Speaker 1 Radiolab is supported by Apple TV. It's 1972.
A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes. Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds.

Speaker 1 All they have left is a life raft and each other. How will they survive? The true story of a family's fight for survival, hosted by Becky Milligan.

Speaker 1 This is Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Apple TV subscribers get special early access to the entire season.
Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.

Speaker 1 Wait, you're listening.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 You're listening

Speaker 2 to Radio Lab. Lab.
Radio Lab. From

Speaker 1 WNYC.

Speaker 2 December the 8th, 1963 was the exact date.

Speaker 2 I was just drifting in really quietly with my gun in front of me.

Speaker 2 And I was just caressing the trigger and I was just about to pull it.

Speaker 2 It's a funny thing, you know, I thought I'd been hit by a train.

Speaker 2 And I don't know, I'd never been on a train.

Speaker 2 But it was such a big, powerful whack

Speaker 2 knocked the mask off my face knocked the gun out of my hand thumped me into the bottom and then i was being hurled through the water faster than i'd ever ever ever swam

Speaker 2 this is radiolab i'm lulu miller and i'm loftifnasser and that voice was rodney fox who our producer rachel kusick talked to why rage yeah so i went to go visit rodney Rodney because for people like me who love the ocean, his story is something that I try to tell myself would never happen,

Speaker 2 but it did.

Speaker 2 Of course, it couldn't be a train. I had to be a shark, a big shark, and instinctively I gouged around its head with my fingers.

Speaker 2 My arm went into its mouth over its teeth and ripped.

Speaker 2 And the shark seemed to

Speaker 2 let me go and I fell out of its mouth where my chest was in its teeth. And I instinctively pushed it away.

Speaker 2 And then I realized I'm still holding my breath 60 feet underwater.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to drown.

Speaker 2 So I headed straight up towards the surface.

Speaker 2 Rodney makes it to the top, takes a huge gasp of air, but then...

Speaker 2 I look down and there, through pink water, which I realized was my blood, there was this great big head,

Speaker 2 these big white teeth coming with the mouth wide open, straight towards me.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 just before the shark got to him,

Speaker 2 it turned, grabbed these fish Rodney had tied to his belt, and dragged Rodney back down. Deeper, deeper, and deeper.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 a miracle happened. The line snapped.

Speaker 2 And Rodney began floating up towards the surface. Like a leaf drops down from a tree in a waving sort of a way.

Speaker 2 Rodney gets to the surface. There's blood everywhere and he shouts for help.
He yelled out, shark, shark. And a boat came over.
They dragged me into the boat and raced raced me to shore.

Speaker 2 So, the reason I went to go talk to Rodney is because this Friday is the 50th anniversary of the movie. There is a creature alive today, Jaws, who has survived millions of years of evolution.

Speaker 2 The original Summer Blockbuster, but also a movie that taught the nation, if not the world, to be terrified of sharks. It lives to kill.
It's the seed that bloomed countless nightmares.

Speaker 2 Mindless eating machine.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I mean, like, I'm in the ocean all the time.
Like, I'm a volunteer lifeguard. I do open water swimming.
I surf. Like, an absurd amount of my life is built around the ocean.

Speaker 2 And, and I realized, though, like, the only, the only time I think about sharks is when I think about shark attacks. And, and I, I didn't know anything about sharks.

Speaker 2 Uh, and so I called you guys up because you're kind of the only ones who answer these kinds of calls that I make. And, and I was like, let's do some shark stories.

Speaker 1 And then you came back with

Speaker 1 a school of stories.

Speaker 2 I brought back quite a haul.

Speaker 4 I brought back so much. We were like, you know what? We're not doing a shark episode.

Speaker 1 We're doing a week of shark, a non-trademark infringing week of shark. Completely different than shark, of course.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. It's a different thing.
We have got a shark story coming every day this week.

Speaker 2 Starting this morning, some are scary, some are beautiful, some are adorable.

Speaker 4 We got sharks that fly.

Speaker 1 Sharks that glow in the dark. Sharks that might cure cancer.

Speaker 1 And we're going to start with the great white shark. Not only the shark from Jaws, it's also the shark that attacked our guy, Rodney Fox, at the beginning of this episode.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And the reason we're actually starting with Rodney's story and the story of this shark is not just because it's my literal drop-dead nightmare, but because his story and how he responded to this attack afterwards, it is intimately tied up in our collective fear of sharks.

Speaker 1 Okay, so go on.

Speaker 2 So go on.

Speaker 2 Okay, so Rodney gets to the hospital and the doctors are like, dear God, this guy is a mess.

Speaker 2 I actually got to see the wetsuit he was wearing at the time. There's just a giant slash, like someone took.
a bread knife and sliced him in half. Rodney had lost a huge amount of blood.

Speaker 2 Every rib in my chest broken. The tendons in his hand were severed.
A lung punctured as well. I mean, he really almost died.

Speaker 2 But obviously he's here. He didn't.
I woke up. I didn't know whether I was in heaven or hell.
Thank goodness the walls weren't painted black. He was alive, but he was in really rough shape.

Speaker 2 I had a temperature of 105. I couldn't lift my head off the pillow.
He was in a ton of pain. Horrific.
It was just unbelievable.

Speaker 2 Says he would just lay there in bed, his eyes fixed on this big clock on the wall. And you could see the secondhand tick, tick, tick.

Speaker 2 I was watching this tick. I remember that so much.

Speaker 2 He was in the hospital for a week, then two,

Speaker 2 then three.

Speaker 2 And then at some point, he had what I would consider to be kind of a baffling thought.

Speaker 2 Of all the things in the world, I loved my family first and I would never give up diving. I want to get back in the water.

Speaker 2 What? Why?

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, so Rodney had always loved the ocean. He would go fishing with his dad, and his dad would always just be pulling these fish out of the water.

Speaker 2 But when Rodney was like 10 or 11, he decided he wanted to see what was down there for himself. I decided I'd heard about masks, and I made my own mask.

Speaker 2 This was before you could just go to the store and buy a pair of goggles. So Rodney found like a tube from a tire.
And I got some glass. He strapped it around his face.

Speaker 2 It was the wrong size for my head. It was rough as guts.
And he jumped in.

Speaker 2 I saw my first beautiful fish underwater.

Speaker 2 A box fish. It was little, like the size of a softball.
Really boxy body and a tiny little tail.

Speaker 2 It was just sort of levitating in front of him. And colours, the colours were so bright.
Orange with like iridescent blue stripes and spots all over it.

Speaker 2 And it was so cute and I just never forget that first sight from underwater. Just imagine that when you've never seen a YouTube video of the ocean, there was no blue planet, no David Attenborough.

Speaker 2 Jacques Cousteau was still years away from doing his thing. We really didn't know very much about the oceans.

Speaker 2 So seeing this fish and all these other fish swimming around down there was like going to the moon it still brings you know warm shivers to my my my heart

Speaker 2 and then pretty much as soon as it was there

Speaker 2 his goggles fall apart water rushes in and it was gone he got a glimpse

Speaker 2 yeah this little taste um yeah and but he it got him hooked Rodney started diving all the time. And we never knew what we were going to see.

Speaker 2 By the time he was a teenager, goggles came for the first time and my mother for Christmas brought me my first pair of goggles and ah, it was a new world.

Speaker 2 He started spearfishing with some friends, made a little club. It's called the Octopus Club.
And by the time he was in his 20s, 23, 24 years of age. He's entering competitions.
And we trained.

Speaker 2 We used to run around the block together and we used to do push-ups against each other. They'd practice holding their breath for as long as they could.
And this is a really bad thing.

Speaker 2 At the time, I was driving an explosives truck. And to practice, I would hold my breath and count telegraph poles that I could have blacked out.

Speaker 2 I would not have wanted to be on the road behind you that day. No, no.
Rodney says he loved the fishing and the competition, but really, it was all an excuse to just go down there and look at stuff.

Speaker 2 The beauty of the underwater scenery was so intense.

Speaker 2 And so after the shark attack, when people would come up to him and say, give up diving and never go back in the water again, he thought, are you kidding me? And never see that beautiful world again?

Speaker 2 No way.

Speaker 2 My first day back in the water was only like

Speaker 2 four, three or four months after my attack.

Speaker 2 And it was the first outing by all the clubs again down at a local beach where they were going snorkeling.

Speaker 2 My wife actually paddled me out on a big surfboard

Speaker 2 in the middle of all these other 10 or 15 heads of divers going up and down on this reef. And I went into the middle of them because I thought the shark won't be there.
And I put my mask on.

Speaker 2 And the funny thing happened, the sun shining on all of the riplets of the water was sending diamonds down into the sea. And I saw them as all the sharks.

Speaker 2 And I said, they're all coming at me. And so he pops out of the water.
And I shook my head and all the sharks went away.

Speaker 2 But this experience, this day, it really rocked him.

Speaker 2 He wants to be there. He loves the ocean more than anything.
Yeah. But he's still so afraid.
He's in this like fight with his mind.

Speaker 2 If you look at the statistics of it all, how many people are actually killed or bitten per year, it's quite minimal to the amount of people that go diving out in the water.

Speaker 2 Like Lulu, if you had to guess for 2024 last year,

Speaker 2 do you want to guess like how many people died from shark attacks around the world?

Speaker 4 How many people died? Yes. I don't know, like maybe 970.

Speaker 2 Okay, so take that number and subtract 963. Seven.
So seven. Seven people

Speaker 4 singular people.

Speaker 2 Seven confirmed fatalities from sharks last year. Okay.
So just to put that into perspective, these are a few of the things that will kill more humans than sharks every year. Okay.

Speaker 2 So at the beach alone, the things that are way more likely to get you at the beach are rip currents. Water itself.
Water itself. Okay.
Skin cancer, huge one.

Speaker 2 And actually, surprisingly, holes that little kids dig in the sand. Really? Actually, those holes are about as likely to kill you as a shark.

Speaker 2 And those are just at the beach. Okay.
Zoom out a little bit. Yeah.
Lightning strikes. Are more than sharks? Yeah, 24,000 people a year, apparently.
Selfies? That's so sad.

Speaker 2 It's a really bad way to go.

Speaker 4 Okay, so you're saying, you're saying, like, wait, sorry, one more, one more.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 The one stat that I just love as a New Yorker is that you are 10 times more likely to be bitten by a New Yorker than you are to be bitten by a shark.

Speaker 2 I kind of like

Speaker 2 that. I get that.
I get that. Okay.

Speaker 2 But but

Speaker 2 up, up, yes, yes.

Speaker 4 Sharks, man. Like,

Speaker 2 they are

Speaker 4 so fast and so big. And, like, I can hear these statistics, but if we're at the beach and you tell me there are sharks in the water, I'm not going to go in.

Speaker 4 Could it be analogous to a snake kind of fear where it's just like, or I don't happen to have it, but a spider fear where it's like you, we are, we come out ready to be afraid of these things because it would have served us.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, according to the scientist I spoke to named Chris Lowe, professor of marine biology and the director of the shark lab at Cal State Long Beach.

Speaker 2 We are kind of hardwired to quickly learn how to fear certain animals.

Speaker 5 They're land animals that we co-evolve with, but not sharks. Psychologists have done studies where they've shown babies pictures of snakes and spiders, and they react with fear.

Speaker 5 Then they show them a picture of a shark, and there's no reaction.

Speaker 2 Really? Yeah. Chris pointed out the obvious fact that we're not an aquatic animal.
For most of human history, people had very few interactions with sharks.

Speaker 5 It was this beast that people were told about that they rarely get to see.

Speaker 2 And Chris says, when all you have are stories.

Speaker 5 What happens is it allows people's imaginations to take over.

Speaker 2 Like we didn't have goggles until like the 1950s. So we didn't, we knew that things were taking us.
We never actually ever saw these creatures. Like the most we might see is the fin.

Speaker 5 We're given a few pieces of information and then we begin to develop this image of what these animals are like. We make the monster in our head.

Speaker 2 And in a way, that is exactly what was happening for Rodney. Like, yes, he had been attacked, but what he really feared was what he couldn't see.

Speaker 2 You have no idea if there's a shark within 10 meters or within 10 miles.

Speaker 2 And so you give the sharks the benefit of the doubt, and you think they could be right there waiting for me.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's really one of those things that

Speaker 2 you have to mentally overcome.

Speaker 2 Which is what Rodney's going to try to do

Speaker 2 right after we take a quick break.

Speaker 1 Radio Lab is supported by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.

Speaker 1 Just ask the Capital One Bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.
He'd also tell you that Radio Lab is his favorite podcast, too. Aw, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy.

Speaker 1 What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital one.com/slash bank, capital One NA, member FDIC.

Speaker 4 Radiolab is supported by AT ⁇ T.

Speaker 4 There's nothing better than that feeling like someone has your back and that things are going to get done without you even having to ask, like your friend offering to help you move without even having to offer drinks and pizza first.

Speaker 4 It's a beautiful thing when someone is two steps ahead of you, quietly making your life easier. Staying connected matters.

Speaker 4 That's why in the rare event of a network outage, AT ⁇ T will proactively credit you for a full day of service. That's the AT ⁇ T guarantee.

Speaker 4 Credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers.

Speaker 4 Must be connected to impacted tower at onset of outage. Restrictions and exclusions apply.
See ATT.com slash guarantee for full details. AT ⁇ T, Connecting Changes Everything.

Speaker 1 Radiolab is supported by the National Forest Foundation, a nonprofit transforming America's love of nature into action for our forests.

Speaker 1 Did you know that national forests provide clean drinking water to one in three Americans?

Speaker 1 And that national forests and grasslands cover nearly 10% of the U.S., hosting 150,000 miles of trails and providing habitat for over 3,000 species of plants and animals.

Speaker 1 The National Forest Foundation supports the places where we come alive, keeping the trails, rivers, and forests we love healthy.

Speaker 1 Last year, they planted 5.3 million trees and advanced over 300 projects to protect nature and communities nationwide.

Speaker 1 Their work creates lasting impact by restoring forests and watersheds, strengthening wildfire resilience, and expanding recreation access for generations to come. And when forests struggle, so do we.

Speaker 1 The water in our taps, the air we breathe, and the trails that connect us all. Learn how you can help at nationalforests.org.

Speaker 1 Radiolab is supported by the National Forest Foundation, a nonprofit transforming America's love of nature into action for our forests.

Speaker 1 Did you know that national forests provide clean drinking water to one in three Americans? And when forests struggle, so do we.

Speaker 1 The National Forest Foundation creates lasting impact by restoring forests and watersheds, strengthening wildfire resilience, and expanding recreation access for all.

Speaker 1 Last year, they planted 5.3 million trees and led over 300 projects to protect nature and communities nationwide. Learn more at nationalforests.org slash radiolab.

Speaker 3 WNYC Studios is supported by Apple TV.

Speaker 6 It's 1972. A young British family is attempting to to sail around the world when disaster strikes.
Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds.

Speaker 6 All they have left is a life raft and each other. This is the true story of the Robertson family and their fight to survive, hosted by me, Becky Milligan.

Speaker 6 Listen to Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.

Speaker 2 Lulu. Lotthiff.
Rachel, Radiolab.

Speaker 1 And we're back with the story of Rodney Fox, a man who is brutally attacked by a great white shark, desperately wants to get back in the water, but is terrified of being attacked again.

Speaker 2 Seven or eight months after my shark attack,

Speaker 2 my wife took my young niece into the zoological gardens in town for a wander around.

Speaker 2 And as we were looking at the different animals, we came across the lion's cage.

Speaker 2 And as we walked up to the lion's cage, it started to roar.

Speaker 2 You know, lions, when they roar, it starts back at their tail and it goes right up through their body, up through their chest and out through their mouth. And the roar

Speaker 2 is incredible. It really takes you over and shakes you.

Speaker 2 And it strikes Rodney like, oh, these lions are kind of man-eaters, exactly like sharks. With his mouth wide open, big white teeth there.
But when I can look at it in a cage, it feels safe.

Speaker 2 And I thought, well, maybe I could reverse the role. Maybe I could get in the cage myself and drop the cage over the side where all the show where there's some sharks are.

Speaker 2 And I can have a look at these great whites and make up my own mind if I want to go diving with them again. And so, again, Rodney cobbled together some materials.

Speaker 2 A steel mesh that they made for putting in concrete. And built a shark cage.

Speaker 2 A two-man cage that we could stand in with little holes in the front that you could look out and maybe put your camera out from.

Speaker 1 Oh, so like this is the shark cage, like that you see on National Geographic or whatever?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. But actually, Rodney is one of the first people to make and use a shark cage like that.
Huh. So for him, this was like this original idea to overcome his fear.

Speaker 2 So, Rodney has his cage, and then he decides he wants to try it out. So, he finds a boat, gets a crew together.

Speaker 2 And so, we went out on this trip, and uh, they took the boat out to this place called Dangerous Reef for a reason, great name, a little bit of a great white hotspot.

Speaker 2 They head out to these waters, and eventually, they see a fin.

Speaker 2 So, Rodney rigs up this cage, lowered it over the side, jumped in the cage, and then

Speaker 2 he's just waiting

Speaker 2 peering out

Speaker 2 into the dark water

Speaker 2 some fish dart by

Speaker 2 the sunlight flashing off their scales

Speaker 2 and then he says i was looking and i just saw shadows drifting past the back of the boat just shadows down the end now and again

Speaker 2 and then all of a sudden i turn to my right and there's this submarine swimming past with eyes

Speaker 2 and it swam only about three meters or ten feet in front of me

Speaker 2 and almost looked like it was man-made because it was so big.

Speaker 2 Rodney feels himself recoil. I'd move to the back of the cage and with his back pressed against the back of the cage, he looks at the shark for the first time.

Speaker 2 Just stares at it.

Speaker 2 This great big silver grey, great white shark.

Speaker 2 And he's staring at it.

Speaker 2 He realizes the shark

Speaker 2 is not even really looking at him. It didn't take any notice of me in the cage at all.
It just was more interested in the fish.

Speaker 2 And that certainly was a big help for me.

Speaker 2 After that first day in the cage, Rodney found that it got easier and easier to return to the ocean. Spent thousands of hours in the water.
His fear of being attacked, it never completely went away.

Speaker 2 But if I had worries about sharks, he would just tell himself, Generally, sharks don't like humans. And he'd think about how indifferent that shark was to him when he was in the cage.

Speaker 2 And not only that, like how beautiful it was.

Speaker 2 And so pretty soon he started sharing that experience with other people. Like they would call him up and say they wanted to go out and see the sharks too.

Speaker 2 Because that was the only way you could see a great white shark. Nobody had filmed or photographed great whites underwater.
So Rodney started bringing filmmakers out there.

Speaker 2 One from Italy and one from England.

Speaker 2 And more people want to see it and more people want to see it. And I got this call from Hollywood.
Somebody working with a 27-year-old filmmaker named Steven Spielberg.

Speaker 2 They were making a big budget shark film.

Speaker 4 Oh,

Speaker 4 the Jaws people call him.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes. Nobody knew it was Jaws at the time.
They said they wanted to try and get some realistic footage in there. And I was pretty excited about this.
And they wanted to come out for six weeks.

Speaker 2 So Rodney brought them out and they shot hours and hours of footage. And then that crew, they went back to Hollywood.
Fast forward a little while and the movie comes out.

Speaker 2 And as we all know, monster shark, terrorizing beachgoers,

Speaker 2 hunting them down, never giving up.

Speaker 2 But the weird thing is, when you watch the movie, you really didn't see a shark very often. You get an hour into the film without seeing a shark.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 You really don't see a lot of shark footage in that movie.

Speaker 2 Chris Logan, the shark scientist from before.

Speaker 5 And I think that was actually the brilliance of the movie.

Speaker 7 The best monster movies always work by withholding the thing that you're supposed to be frightened of. And that really amplifies fear by causing this cognitive uncertainty.

Speaker 2 What is it? What can it do?

Speaker 7 This is Jeffrey Cohen, professor of English and Dean of Humanities at Arizona State University.

Speaker 2 And he studies monster stories. Godzilla, Frankenstein, vampire movies, you name it.
And he says, in all of these stories.

Speaker 7 It's really when the monster is continually just at the edge of vision. Those are the moments that just keep you on edge.
And that is one of the reasons I think Jaws is so effective. It waits.

Speaker 2 Instead of showing you the shark, you just hear that iconic score.

Speaker 7 And you very quickly learn in that film that the soundtrack takes the place of the monster.

Speaker 7 Once you see it, it's actually not quite as scary anymore.

Speaker 2 Which is kind of like the exact thing Rodney learned for himself when he went down into the cages and the thing he wanted to share with other people. And so when Rodney saw the movie.

Speaker 2 I was embarrassed. I had no idea at the time that it was going to frighten so many people out of the water.

Speaker 2 I didn't even tell people for 10 years that I really worked on it because it was totally against what I wanted to do. I wanted to get people to understand and like sharks better.

Speaker 2 This made him hate sharks.

Speaker 4 Well, yeah, I mean, it's like he invented this whole contraption to see it more clearly and then ended up being complicit in this kind of like

Speaker 4 infection in our minds of seeing it as something so scary.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like he was able to kind of like paint this masterpiece of a shark. And then we kind of wiped away all of these beautiful details.
And all that was left was this outline.

Speaker 2 of this creature that just feels so ominous. And that's not actually the version of the white shark that Rodney knows.
It's just kind of the one that got handed to us.

Speaker 2 And so I decided I needed to see the shark

Speaker 2 Rodney wanted us to see. All right, regulation for this.
For myself.

Speaker 4 That's tomorrow on day two of our week of sharks.

Speaker 1 Yeah, join us as we come face to face with what I think still is one of the scariest things in the ocean.

Speaker 1 This episode was reported and produced by Rachel Kusick with production and editing by Pat Walters. Mixing help and sound design by Jeremy Bloom, and it was fact-checked by Diane Kelk.

Speaker 4 And one more thing, we want to give a huge thanks to everyone who supports Radiolab, especially right now, everyone who's a part of the lab, our membership program.

Speaker 4 Your support makes big projects like this possible, and we are so grateful.

Speaker 2 And if you aren't a member yet or are thinking about giving more,

Speaker 1 this is the perfect time to take the plunge. Because if you join or re-up now, you will receive a really cool gift.

Speaker 4 A limited edition Week of Sharks hat designed by the awesome Maine-based artist and surfer Ty Williams.

Speaker 4 It's so beautiful and fun and it gives you a chance to show the world you support public radio in the form of Radiolab and support sharks.

Speaker 1 It's available to everyone who joins the lab this month, even for as little as seven bucks a month.

Speaker 4 You can join at radiolab.org slash join. Existing members check your email for details and thank you so much.

Speaker 1 This is Swimming with Shadows, a Radio Lab week of sharks.

Speaker 2 See you tomorrow.

Speaker 8 Hi, I'm Teddy and I'm from Berkeley, California, and here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad Abernrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler.
Lulu Miller and Lothith Nasser are our co-hosts.

Speaker 8 Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, W.

Speaker 8 Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Rebecca Lacks, Maria Kaz Gutierrez, Sindu Nyana Sambandan, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sara Kari, Sarah Sandback, Anissa Vitza, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster, and Jessica Young.

Speaker 8 With help from Rebecca Rand, our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Curzol-Maximi, and Natalie Middleton.

Speaker 8 Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid.

Speaker 9 Leadership support from Radiolab Science Programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Tolpentol Foundation. Foundational support from Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P.

Speaker 9 Eslau Foundation.

Speaker 1 Radio Lab is supported by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.

Speaker 1 Just ask the Capital One Bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.
He'd also tell you that Radio Lab is his favorite podcast, too. Aw, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy.

Speaker 1 What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital one.com/slash bank, capital One NA, member FDIC.

Speaker 1 Radiolab is supported by the National Forest Foundation, a nonprofit transforming America's love of nature into action for our forests.

Speaker 1 Did you know that national forests provide clean drinking water to one in three Americans? And when forests struggle, so do we.

Speaker 1 The National Forest Foundation creates lasting impact by restoring forests and watersheds, strengthening wildfire resilience, and expanding recreation access for all.

Speaker 1 Last year, they planted 5.3 million trees and led over 300 projects to protect nature and communities nationwide. Learn more at nationalforests.org/slash radiolab.