Overtime – Episode #704: Andrew Huberman, Frank Bruni, Christopher Rufo

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Welcome Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late-night series, real-time with Bill Ma.

All right, here we are.

And here, Frank is the host of the Huberman Lab, Andrew Huberman.

She is a professor at Duke, an author of The Age of Grievance, Bran Grooney, and he's a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

His book is called America's Cultural Revolution, Christopher Ruffo.

Okay,

here are the questions from the people out there.

What do you think, Andrew, of the rise of Ozempic?

How has it changed the way we think about health?

Oh, that's a great question.

What is your take on Ozempic?

Ozempic has made one thing very clear that people debated for a long time, which is the reason that so many Americans are obese, is because they eat more than they burn.

Remember, that was a debate not long ago.

It's still a debate.

I still read it.

I still read like it's a mystery.

Well, it absolutely,

it absolutely, I mean, these are the laws of thermodynamics.

If you take in more calories than you burn, you're going to put on weight over time.

Some people burn more at rest, and so they don't need to move around as much, but people have been eating too much.

In particular, these highly processed foods, etc.

We can talk about those.

The interesting thing about Ozempic that bothers a lot of people is that it is very expensive, and if you go off it, you gain the weight back, unless you do something like resistance training, aka weight training, to keep the muscle that you have, because muscle is a highly metabolically active tissue.

So

if people want to go on it or take less or go off it, they're going to need to do something to offset the reduction in metabolism.

The other thing that's happening now is- Is it is itself the drug itself,

do you think it's unhealthy?

Well, it raises these GLP levels, this natural peptide that limits appetite, by thousandfold, excuse me, increases by thousandfold over what it normally is.

It's extremely effective, and I would say for getting a lot of weight off of people who really need that, I think it's a great first pass, especially if they're unwilling to exercise.

I think anytime a pharmaceutical is on the table, okay, should somebody take an SSRI?

Should they not?

The real question is, what are they willing to do instead?

If If they're willing to exercise, resistance train, and eat well, well then probably don't need Ozempic.

But they say Ozempic has other functions too that could be valuable.

What I always want to know when they come up with something and then somebody says, well, it's effective at what we designed it for.

I'm like, I'm never arguing with that.

I want to know is what happens downstream?

Because again, just as the layman, common sense is when you block one thing in the body, usually it has some other effect somewhere else.

Absolutely.

That's what I'm asking you.

What is going on?

It's doing the thing it's supposed to do.

What is the bad side of that, or is there one?

Well, there are activities of GLP-1 outside of appetite, so you see things like nausea.

You also see reductions in appetite for alcohol.

because of the reductions in sugar cravings, so that's considered a positive side effect.

There are now a number of people that are looking at this for the treatment of various addictions.

I'm not saying it's all good.

I will also say that there's a very important thing happening in the legislature now, which is to look at what are called compounding pharmacies.

People have realized that you don't necessarily have to buy the super expensive Ozempic from the big pharma companies.

You can get it from compounding pharmacies, which are going to give you the same thing.

And micro-dosing of Ozempic, in combination with healthy lifestyle, but even just micro-dosing of smaller amounts, far cheaper, like one-tenth the prescribed dose, far cheaper, and turns out to be pretty effective.

So, what we're finding is, like most things, it's not all black and white.

I'm not either strongly pro or against.

However, I will say with confidence that if you exercise, get your morning sunlight, you get your sleep, you try and eat mostly unprocessed or minimally processed foods, you can go a long way towards your health.

And I will also say it's clear that most Americans don't want to do that and would rather take a pill.

It's just a reality, right?

It's just a reality.

It's just a reality.

But it was...

It was interesting, now that we have Ozempic, I hear much less about the body positivity movement, which was always Orwellian.

It was always Orwellian to say that being fat was body positivity.

It is the exact opposite, or this bullshit about how you could be healthy at any weight.

This is your wheelhouse, this kind of stuff.

Yeah, I mean, you look at the advertising, and you talked about the Sydney Sweeney ad, that represents a huge sea change.

I mean, they tried to pump the airwaves full of propaganda that if you were 400 pounds

and you had some kind of esoteric outfit on, that that was the new vision of beauty.

They had had some college kids believing it.

But the reality is that people throughout time have an idea of classical standards of beauty.

And in our case, in our civilization, there have been an American standard of beauty that actually reflects what people want.

And so

fat was in at a time.

You can see it in the paintings.

But it's when people were poor and food was, you know.

That's right.

And in certain cultures, like the Pacific Islander cultures, there's different culture embarrassations.

But the reality is that more people

would rather be

petite, trim, low body fat, than be 500 pounds.

And I think that's what they're doing.

Maybe a near-white world.

But I mean,

that's not everybody.

No, beauty.

No, it's true.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But science is not.

Science is not in the eye of the beholder.

I mean, you just run up against facts.

All right, let's move on.

Top comics from the U.S.

will perform at a festival in Saudi Arabia next month.

I saw the poster.

Wow.

Some friends of mine.

What does this suggest about how liberals view the country now?

Yeah, I mean, some big names.

I mean, Whitney Cummings is going over there.

I think Bill Burr, Louise Sique are performing in Saudi Arabia.

Wow.

I mean, who's going?

That's my question.

It seems high risk.

It seems like the thing that might end in a public beheading if you say the wrong thing.

So I I don't think that'sin' the lines.

Yeah.

I don't think this is about politics and how they see Saudi Arabia.

I think this is about this.

Oh, it is?

Yeah.

How much are they being paid?

Saudi Arabia knows how to bribe.

They did it with sports.

Now they're growing with comedy.

Wow.

Political principles tend to go out of the window when there's enough money on the table.

Maybe Colbert get a job over there.

Andrew, is pot worse than alcohol?

Oh, what a good basic question.

I mean, I think we're maybe not on the same page with that.

I think your view is proceed with caution, and mine is, I'm high right now.

But of course, alcohol is worse than pot.

Nothing worse.

Alcohol is worse than pot.

Everything, right?

Yeah.

Basically, isn't alcohol worse than everything?

Zero alcohol is better than any.

Right.

Two drinks maximum for an adult non-alcoholic per week.

It's kind of the upper threshold.

Week.

Per week.

Week.

What you can do without starting to increase your risk for cancer, increase your, you know, about 5% of all.

Business week?

Did we talk about five business days?

Wow.

Weekend exemption.

Weekend exemption.

Thank you.

Drinking's at an all-time low, and I think it's because people realize that, yes, it helps you fall asleep, but your sleep is is super lousy.

It messes up your gut microbiome.

I'm not a teetotaler.

I really think that people should do as they wish, but know what they're doing.

But in terms of increasing your risk of cancer, especially for women and breast cancer,

it's unequivocal.

And there's yet another study this week that shows that even moderate drinking is bad.

If you enjoy drinking, just limit it and do a bunch of other things like get your morning sunlight, get your exercise, eat well to

offset the damage you're doing.

How many drinks do you have a day?

Apparently, way too many.

Anyway,

you're allowed to enjoy life, but it'll be a shorter one.

I love you for the information, but you're depressing the hell out of me.

Many, many others.

Yeah.

What about, hypothetically asking for a friend?

What about someone who, like, like I don't

drink a lot now, but like in the past.

Like,

because I feel like the human body really is amazingly resilient the way you can do things in your past.

And then, you you know once you stop doing them you're pretty good no yeah

moving on

to saying every uh every um sinner has a future every saint has a past yeah but i mean if that's true then why not i feel like i always like you know, did as much as my body would allow me to.

When my body let me have 25 drinks a week, I did.

Much different impact in your 20s and 30s.

Right.

In part because of the way that sleep becomes more and more important for maintaining brain function and bodily function.

And I will say that with cannabis,

you know, people are very concerned about the elevated levels of THC.

It is a concern for people with a predisposition to psychosis, but you might enjoy this fact.

It turns out, an expert on my podcast, expert in cannabis, who told me that the data point to the fact that if people smoke or vape cannabis, not something I'm suggesting they do, people are pretty good at bringing themselves into the right plane of high.

The panics and the psychotic episodes that people experience and take them to the ER is because of these edibles where they, you know, they eat an edible and then suddenly they're, you know, twice the desired plane of high, as it's called.

So edibles are as much of a problem in that way as the high THC levels.

No, I don't eat it anymore.

It's just, it's so much of a commitment.

Exactly.

Exactly.

That's exactly what it is.

No, it is.

Six hours later, you can't find a...

I mean, it's like, you know, it tells me when I'm not high anymore, and I want to tell it.

Okay, Frank, as a former food critic for the New York Times, do you think Trump's immigration crackdown will make food in America less interesting?

I have no idea.

I have to come up with something for you there.

I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know what that means.

What are the panel's thoughts on the FBI searching John Bolton's home this morning?

Is it further evidence that the agency has been politicized?

Well, I mean, you know, Trump's comment was, I didn't know about it.

I had nothing to do with it.

And then he said something like, you know,

I might ask for it, but I just think this is better.

It's It's not about thinking it's better.

The president is not supposed to do things like that.

He's not supposed to be involved with that.

He says things that he's doing as a favor.

Plus, I don't even believe it.

I mean, even if he didn't specifically say to Pam Bondi, look into

exactly.

I mean,

they know what they're supposed to do.

They know what pleases him.

Yes.

That's right.

I'll take the other side.

I think it's a good thing.

And let me explain why Chakra.

Let me explain why.

Because look, you look at basic game theory.

When President, remember this, when President Trump ran for office the first time, his big chant at the rally was lock her up.

I was a little bit like, this seems a little extreme.

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

But after he won, he said something very interesting.

He said, that was a campaign thing.

Hillary's fine.

We're going to all move on.

And he didn't actually seek to prosecute his political opponents.

But now, over the last 10 years, we've had Russia gate, we've had investigations, we've had indictments, we've had arrests, we'd had the mugshot, we'd have a bullet through his ear, we had him stripped.

I don't think we'd have to do it.

strip.

What is the bullet through his ear?

The bullet, I don't think, is something we can blame on the Democratic Party.

Even so, even said.

There's no point of connection between the bullet in his ear and what happened to John Bolton's house this morning.

No, let me get there.

I'm warming up to this, guys.

Come on.

So, okay, let's take the bullet out for sake of argument.

You have him

stripped of his ability to actually do business in New York.

I mean, he was the most persecuted political figure in American history.

And the idea is if you get into office and you do nothing, you're sending a signal to Democrats that Republicans will never fight back.

There's no downside consequence.

You can knock out a Republican, just like they did with Nixon, anytime they want.

Tit for tat is a way to recalibrate the system, to get back to parity, and over time, if people play it intelligently,

I think you get an actually healthier political system.

And last point, John Bolton.

Very smart person to start with because everybody hates John Bolton.

Conservatives, Republicans.

When did that become part of a criminal case?

Everybody hates this person so much.

But you're saying they did it to Nixon.

Are you now saying that Nixon did nothing wrong and was wrongly pursued?

Yeah, no, I think if you look at the history of Watergate, you see that it was a setup from start to finish.

You know, four of the five Watergate burglars, listen, four of the five Watergate burglars were connected with the CIA, were connected with the FBI.

You had the judge, Judge Sarika, who had backdoor meetings violating the law out to get Nixon.

And I think, and this will be an unpopular opinion at this table, maybe with this audience, but in time, I think we're going to see Nixon vindicated and the history around Nixon will be changed.

And the tapes and everything he said on the tapes, and was that a hoax?

No, but look, Nixon had no

one

Was Nixon aware of the Watergate break-in before it occurred?

I'm sorry?

Was Nixon aware, did he plan the Watergate break-in?

Did he have knowledge of it prior to the break-in?

I don't know.

Actually, I can't access.

I don't know.

I mean, that was a long time ago, but

he's on the bottom.

Was Nixon engaged in a cover-up?

There was smoking guns on that tape, on the tapes.

There actually was.

I don't remember if he actually said break into this specific place, but he definitely said,

we can get them the money.

You know,

absolutely.

And the reason, not true.

He had no knowledge prior to the break-in.

His staff came and said, hey, we have this problem.

He floated an idea that is a so-called smoking gun, but never acted on it.

This is where we are.

Nixon vindication by 2035.

Okay.

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Rated mature.

Andrew.

What are you about drinking raw milk?

This show covers all bases.

That's what I love about it.

No, I mean, I'm serious.

Well, I drink.

I don't drink milk.

No, I don't drink milk either.

But what about raw?

Like,

see, again, one of those things, I stopped talking about these things because I'm just a comedian, so how could I know anything?

But pasteurization, which of course is a valuable thing, just like vaccines are a valuable thing in a mindset.

But they do kill the good bacteria.

And we do want good bacteria.

I mean, when people are drinking those probiotics, that's good bacteria.

But from what I've read and for the people I've talked to, nobody really knows if those probiotics are doing anything.

But raw, but if you have unpasteurized goat yogurt,

I think that's doing something.

Do you eat raw milk products?

Not milk, goat.

Goat.

A lot of people that are lactose intolerant can handle goat dairy.

It's a different molecule.

Yeah, right.

The gut microbiome, so these trillions of little bacteria sounds pretty gross, that live in all of us, are essential for mental health and physical health at every level.

This is one of the most important discoveries of the last 20 years.

Is that where our immune system is?

It signals to our immune system all over our body, but a lot of things are made by those bacteria,

what I call short-chain fatty acids, the signaling for serotonin production in your brain.

All that stuff originates in the gut.

This is, and it's counterintuitive.

It goes back to our earlier discussion about mind-body connection.

You would think, oh, you know, how I feel, everything about that is above the neck.

No, the body is signaling the brain, the brain is signaling the body.

The best way to support your gut microbiome is to ingest enough fiber, vegetables, and fruits, but also, if you can, to ingest some low-sugar-fermented foods.

People immediately say beer.

No, not beer.

That's not a low sugar fermented food.

Things like sauerkraut, kimchi.

So sauerkraut, kimchi, kombucha is great.

Some have a little bit of alcohol, just

mindful of that for kids.

Raw milk products, yes, can support the gut microbiome.

The sourcing and the handling of those raw milk products is very important because if you allow a lot of bacteria to flourish, you do introduce the risk of contamination.

And there have been some some instances where kids and adults have gotten pretty sick from raw milk products.

However, if they're handled well, a lot of these raw milk products are quite good for the gut microbiome.

I'm not going to recommend anybody.

You do you.

I'm just going to throw this into the mix on this.

Most people have had antibiotics, right?

Some people have had a lot of them.

What do antibiotics do?

They kill the good bacteria.

They kill as many bacteria as they possibly can.

Including the good bacteria.

Including the good bacteria.

And that's why something

like unpasteurized, again, not recommending,

to me is valuable.

Yeah, sure.

Because you have to replace those good bacteria because, again,

when we're hungry,

we're not really hungry.

It's all those trillion things wanting to be fed, is it not?

That's right.

A lot of our hunger mechanisms arise in the gut.

When you eat sugar, sugary foods, independent of the taste of those sugary foods, Those sugary foods act on cells in your gut that communicate with the dopamine system of your brain, the desire centers in your brain, and cause you to want to eat more.

Try this.

The next time you eat something that's kind of bad or you have a scoop of ice cream or something or you have a piece of chocolate, delicious chocolate, one of the first subjective experiences you have is more.

I want more.

Not, oh, I'm relishing in the taste of it.

So low sugar fermented foods are the best way to go.

If you are confident in the sources of your raw, unpasteurized dairy, okay, there is some risk there, but okay.

And yes, if you're taking antibiotics, that's why they tell you to take some...

you know, quality Greek yogurt or bulgarian.

It's also because you're relishing in the taste of it.

That's right.

Taste is a big factor.

I don't normally eat sugar, but occasionally if I'm at a restaurant, somebody orders a dirt and I have a bite of it, I'm like, oh my fucking God, that is right.

I see what they're...

I see what the temptation is.

Listen, from the time we're born, we have an innate, a hardwired system for seeking sugar.

It's just delicious.

But you approach it like an adult.

Like you're not eating like a child all day long, eating pastries and cookies.

Most adults in the United States eat like children.

And most children, unfortunately, are eating very poorly.

High sugar, high carbohydrate and sugar combinations.

You know,

if we look to Europe, for instance, they eat desserts, right?

On average, traditionally, they've been healthier, at least better BMI, thinner, you know, et cetera.

The reason is they eat desserts for dessert.

They're not eating it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

You know, hamburger buns, hot dog buns here.

Most of the breads in the United States carry a lot more sugar.

And so, you know, these so-called hidden sugars, it's not that sugar is poison.

It's the volume of sugar that we're eating and that we're not even aware that we're eating.

You know who had too much sugar?

Nixon.

Thank you very much.

We gotta go.

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