Ep. #613: Michael Moore, Jonathan Lemire, Vivek Ramaswamy

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Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Night Series, Real Time with Bill Ma.

Start the clock.

Thank you.

Hi, Krapo.

How are you?

Thank you very much.

Hey, what's up?

Thank you, people.

Thank you very much.

I appreciate that.

Wow, how enthusiastic you are.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

I know why you're happy today.

Because

you see Joe Biden on 60 Minutes on Sunday?

He declared the pandemic was over.

So if you're wearing a mask, you better be robbing me.

I thought it was over a year and a half ago.

But anyway.

So this is, you know, and things are getting back to normal.

We saw for the first time now in a couple of years.

The UN met.

Putin did not show up.

He has bigger problems at home.

Did you see this, Putin?

He had to call up the reserves now.

This is not going on, but Gen Z is not having it, by the way, around the world.

Gonna talk about here.

It's so interesting.

He had to call up 300,000 Russian men, not good for Ukraine, because they're gonna go to Ukraine.

On the bright side, it greatly reduces the number of people who are trying to hack my Netflix account.

Yeah.

I tell you, things are not great here, but in Russia, have you seen this?

Like 12 people, and these these are prominent people, have fallen out of a window.

This guy doesn't care who knows.

And then last week, another prominent former ally of Putin died falling down the stairs.

Falling down.

It's funny, his goons were dragging him up the stairs

so they could push him down the stairs.

And one of them said, why are we overcomplicating this?

And hey, let's not forget about our friends in Puerto Rico.

Man, they're having a rough time there.

The hurricane hit that.

Did you see that?

The Red Cross still says the people there are without power.

They need water, they need blankets, they need medical supplies, and a bad bunny could use a bag of carrots.

No, I mean, you know, I know Trump didn't know it, but Puerto Ricans are citizens of the United States.

We should never forget that.

But, you know,

Puerto Rico,

it's a weird thing.

They're not a state, but they're not a country.

They're in this vague gray area like Adam Levine's marriage.

But I tell you, are you excited?

The midterms are only like six weeks away now, and they say very high interest.

The people are out there.

They're going to go out there and vote.

This is not usually the case with the midterms.

But as one guy said, I just want to take part in democracy one last time before it goes away.

And they

have some buttes who are running out there.

I mean, have you seen this guy in Pennsylvania?

Could be the governor of Pennsylvania, a real place, called Doug Mastriano.

He's out there campaigning with a prophet,

as one does in politics.

A prophet who talks about the fact that there is,

I'm killing, not making this up, an anointed cake

that when gay people eat it, they become straight.

That's what this

story has everything evangelicals love, magic, bigotry, and dessert.

But unless

to my gay friends out there, if you accidentally eat this anointed cake,

you can turn back if you deep throat an Eclair.

I just.

Giving equal sides.

This used to be a real country.

Did you know about it?

Oh, speaking of which, did you see Trump this week on Sean Hannity?

He was talking about, you know, of course, we know a couple of months ago the FBI raided his home in Mar-a-Lago to get the documents he stole, you know, classified documents, and he told Sean Hannity that he can declassify a document, a president can, he can, maybe just him,

by just thinking about it.

Just Just thinking about it.

It's all there in the Constitution.

The separation of psychic powers.

Okay?

It's plainly spelled out.

Really?

He can do things just by thinking about it.

I guess this explains all the women who only thought they didn't want their pussy grabbed.

And

Trump has eight different lawsuits going on.

And New York State this week said they're suing him and the kids, the whole family, because their family business, of course, was a big sham.

One person is like,

yeah, so it's not just Trump, it's Ivanka Eric Don Jr., not Tiffany.

A rare win for parental neglect.

And Trump this week returned to Mar-a-Lago for the first time since the awful raid, and he said,

it's not the same.

The whole place was ransacked, and apparently Melanie was very traumatized, too.

She said she can't get out of her head the thought of an FBI agent with his fingers in her drawers.

Anyway,

we've got a great show.

We've got Jonathan Lemire.

And the fake Ramas Rocky.

But first up, he is the Oscar-winning filmmaker whose hit movie Bowling for Columbine makes its 20th anniversary this year.

And he's the host of the podcast Rumble with Michael Moore, my good friend.

Michael Moore,

Michael Moore,

Mike.

Hell,

how are you?

You look great.

You look like Michael Less.

I am feeling pretty good, actually.

I've spent the pandemic trying to take care of myself.

Yeah, you look great.

I see you're in your bunker there with the map.

Your

undisclosed location.

So, listen, we've talked about the midterms many times here.

I think there's...

sort of a bright spot there in the fact that the country is on the brink of disaster, which for the first time I I can remember, the midterms are sexy.

This is the one usually we had trouble getting people to go out and vote for, but now there's very high enthusiasm for a midterm election.

So what do you think is going to happen?

Well,

just before I say what I think is going to happen, I need to preface it by telling everybody who's watching that

everybody needs to show up.

And you need to bring five to ten people with you on election day.

That is crazy.

That's a lot of people.

But make it you know play beer make it a fun thing have a party afterwards whatever but i honestly believe bill and you know you and i are are two well-known uh pessimists i think and and i have never felt this optimistic and i and you know i was on your show here um what's now six years ago when i said that trump was going to win and uh the audience booed me and you stood up for me.

I was just saying what I look, I'm out, I'm around.

You know, I'm from the Midwest.

I think I had a pretty good sense of what was going to happen.

I think the opposite is going to happen this time.

I think that there is going to be such a landslide against the traitors, especially the 147 Republicans who just hours after the insurrection voted to not certify the elected president of the United States, Joe Biden.

And I think that there is going to be so many people coming out to vote.

I want to thank the Supreme Court for reminding women that they are, in fact, second-class citizens and taking their rights away like this.

There are so many, I don't know if you've seen the list of states, starting with Kansas, which, by the way, 60% of the people in Kansas a couple months ago showed up to say, no, we want abortion legal and we want it in our Constitution.

We want to stay there.

And this is, I think that there's going to be special massive turnout of women.

70% of all new registered voters in Kansas were women.

In Wisconsin, it's 17% more than men are registering to vote.

Pennsylvania, 12%.

I mean, in most of these states, women who have, these are women who have not voted, who've not been registered, are coming out to register.

And then look what happened in Alaska.

Alaska only gets one member of Congress and elects a woman, a native Alaskan woman, to defeat Sarah Palin, Alaska.

This is like, there are so many signs of this that I think, I honestly think if we all do our work and if we all get people to get out there and we get out there ourselves, we have a chance to do something that it does happen every now and then.

1993, Canada

voted every Conservative member in parliament except for two out of office.

Gone.

All of of that, except for two.

And four years later, in Great Britain, 1997,

every Conservative member of the British Parliament in Scotland, in Wales, and from Northern Ireland were all thrown out of office.

I think we could throw out a huge number of these Republican traitors in November, November 8th.

And

I think there's a good chance where instead of, see, as liberals, you know, we're like, oh,

we're going to, you know, there's all this whining that goes on.

And we've got to stop this and realize the power that we have right now.

We're going to get two to five new Democratic senators after this election

come November.

I really, truly believe that.

I believe we're going to keep the House.

I think the pundits are all wrong.

They're wrong so many times.

They're wrong about, because here's an example, just in Michigan.

In the off-year election midterm of 2014, only 15% of young people 18 to 29 showed up to vote.

Very typical in those days.

But four years later, in 2018,

young people doubled their vote.

It went from 15% to 32% showed up.

There's going to be even more this year.

That's been the trend.

So women, young people, people of color are going to save the day, and we are going to be very happy the day after the election.

And I know it's

people are afraid.

Well, don't say that, Mike.

Now people won't show up.

Yes, I know, because the old school Democrats, liberals were a little like, oh, wow, yeah,

you know, it's not that way anymore.

I think there's a real revolution,

a non-violent revolution going on in favor of democracy.

People don't want to lose it.

We know how close we are to losing it.

And we can't lose it

michael moore now let's meet our panel

i'm sorry

i'm sorry question two

i'm just excited we're going to get rid of these people that are trying to tear the country down we're going to get rid of them i'm i'm excited about it i see

you know we have some republicans watching this show I mean,

we are for all Americans on this show.

No, but that's why.

I know.

Shut down.

Shut up right now

and answer one other question, okay?

Where are you on Biden 24?

Well, you know, when he said...

Suddenly you have nothing to say.

No.

I feel for him.

I don't want to pick on him because he's old, but he told us when he was running

that

he may only be a one-term president.

But hasn't he done kind of good in the last six months?

Yes.

Okay, well, then

I want him healthy.

I want him to keep going.

And

why?

That's how I feel.

I know, but look, you're punching 70 in the mouth.

I know.

Okay.

Okay, and you got your hair.

But why be aegist about it?

I mean, shouldn't we just judge him on the job he's doing?

No, I'm just saying he may decide he won't, he doesn't want to run.

So we need to be thinking plan B or plan C.

Right.

But no, I'm,

believe me, I'm a huge fan of what he's been able to do.

You know, he's not me, he's not you, but that's okay.

I'm, you know, we can make our peace with certain things in order to make this work.

Okay, so when I saw our friend Salman Rushdie have his little episode with getting stabbed, I thought of you recently because

I know you have been attacked in almost the same way.

And I remember when we went to the Met game, do you remember we went to the all-star game at City Field once, you and me and Salmon?

Yeah, there we are.

Oh, fuck.

Yeah, look at that.

You know, Will, do you remember me leaning over to you, and all of a sudden they put us up on the Jumbotron?

And I went, oh, geez.

You know, right now there's a guy up in the bleachers, the assassin, and now he's confused because he doesn't know which one of us to take out first.

And

it's pretty dark right now, but

it's

at that moment.

Do you remember that Miguel Cabrera from the Detroit Tigers?

He swung the bat at the plate and the bat flew out of his hands.

Do you remember this?

No.

It went right over our heads, like two, three feet over our heads.

That one bat could have taken out all three of us.

But

listen.

So you're saying Miguel Cabrera was the assassin?

I'm just saying he's from Venezuela.

I think I saw this in a naked gun movie.

You know, Bill, the serious thing.

Yes, I have had a few times somebody leap on the stage with a knife, with a weapon, and fortunately I had security, and they were able to protect me.

One time a guy came at me with a knife.

And the security guy couldn't stop it in time, so he put his hand up in front of my face, and the knife went right through his hand.

And that security guy, his name was Ron.

He looked at his hand with that knife, it went all the way through, and he looked at it the way you or I would look at, like, uh, in the shower, at a bottle of shampoo, like when it's empty.

And we're like, oh,

he was just like, that's all he did.

And then he took the guy down and handcuffed him.

But you know, it's um,

it's a scary time,

it's a violent time.

When I

hear that Solomon is doing well,

I can't wait to go to a ball game with him and you again.

That was really exciting.

All right.

Well, before I let you go, I just really did want to say congratulations on, I can't believe it's 20 years since Columbine.

And it's funny because, you know, Sal has said before, Solomon Rusty has said before, when he's asked about his legacy, and people say, what do you want?

Or maybe he just said this to me.

I don't know.

I blame the pot.

But I know he said it.

He said, you know what I want?

A shelf, meaning a whole shelf of books, which he pretty much has already filled up and he's hardly done.

And I feel like you have a shelf too.

You know, when you think about Roger and me, and you're thinking about bowling for Columbine and Sico and Capitalism, a Love Story.

And you've taken on guns and you've taken on income inequality and you've taken on health care.

You've taken on a lot of the big issues.

And I know you're not done, but I just wanted to congratulate you,

not just on the 20 years, but having a shelf.

But I got got to go before you start.

Michael Moore, everybody.

I'll speak to you.

Thank you to you both.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right, let's meet our

founder of Strive Asset Management and author of Nation of Victims, Identity Politics, The Death of Merit, and the Path Back to Excellence.

Vivek Ramaswamy is over here.

He is the host of MSNBC's Way Too Early and author of the new book, The Big Lie, Election Chaos, Political Opportunism, and the State of American Politics After 2020.

That's the whole book, by the way.

I just read the book.

Jonathan Lemire is over here.

All right, I want to start with this, what's going on in Iran.

And I said in the monologue, you know, Gen Z's not having it around the world.

I think there's something going on here.

I mean, I have never seen what I'm seeing in Iran.

If you don't know what was going on, folks, a woman named Masa Amini was killed because she was not wearing the hijab,

hijab,

hijab, correctly, and she got taken in by the morality police.

I mean, we've known this goes on forever in lots of Muslim countries.

It's not just this one, but Iran is pretty bad.

And they basically killed her in custody.

And people, I don't know if you've seen the footage, but they are burning their hijabs in the street.

And I feel like this is maybe like their George Floyd moment, finally, that we are seeing something going on in that part of the world that, I mean, we thought maybe with the Arab Spring, but that didn't turn out to really change all that much.

What do you think is going on here?

Yeah, look, I think that you're actually seeing it in Iran.

You're seeing it in Russia.

You're seeing it in China.

People are rising up.

And I think it's pretty interesting with those three countries.

All of them have anti-American sentiment.

All of them are authoritarian.

And all of them are having a pretty tough time.

I got to say, it's kind of encouraging to see the countries that are most anti-American having as much trouble.

It's not so bad over here by comparison.

I mean, it's interesting you bring those two in here because I feel like authoritarian leaders maybe in the last few years have thought, oh, we got the wind at our back now.

You know, it looked like democracy was on the rise, but then Trump came along and Balenzaro and all these people, and they were like, oh no, it's back to us.

And I feel like this may be different.

I mean, could I show some footage for what's going on in Russia?

This is what happened in Russia when Putin said he's going to call up the reservists and lots of people around this country.

And this isn't a country where they push you out the window.

You know, so it takes, it's not just like in this country where you get out in the streets and what happens?

You go to jail overnight, you know, and, you know,

Jane Fond is there with you.

I mean, it's not, you know, it's not nearly as bad.

Now, it takes extraordinary courage to do what we're seeing in Iran and what we're seeing right now in Russia, where Putin this week, you know, a sign of clear weakness, a sign he knows he's losing this war.

Saber rattles again the threat of nukes and then calls up 300,000 reservists.

And remarkable, the images like that, scenes of protests in cities like St.

Petersburg and Moscow, but also Russian men leaving the country, clogging up airports, heading to the borders.

They don't want to participate in what they know is a war that is failing and a war that they don't believe in right now.

There's been days now of unrest in Iran as well.

It is too soon to say where that will go.

We heard President Biden this week from the UN endorse that movement, saying they stand with the people of Iran, trying to stand up to what's happening there.

But it does seem like that the authoritarians are having a tough time, even as Xi Jinping, likely going to have more power.

The Communist Congress in Beijing meets in a few weeks.

But even he, backlash to COVID there, the economy

has really slipped.

It's a tough stretch for the United States.

Well, backlash to the reaction to COVID.

Right.

I mean, I see that here in the American media, too.

Like, they blame everything on COVID.

No, it's not COVID.

COVID was a real thing.

That's how they treated COVID.

Right.

How they handled COVID.

The zero COVID tolerance.

And they're more crazy than we are, which is saying a lot.

Well, I mean, it actually does remind me, make a good point, Bill, is that when I just look at what's happening, take just those three countries, it just reminds you that in different parts of the world, human beings aren't that different from one another.

We all want freedom.

As human beings, we are a free people, whether we're in Iran or China or Russia or America.

But I have to say, I also think we can't do much about those problems, but we can look inside and say that, you know what, at the end of the day, you talk about a morality police in Iran.

Well, I'm not sure there isn't a morality police arising in the United States.

Words you can't say, clothes you can't wear here, apologies you must recite.

You know, condemned Vladimir Prisoner.

What clothes can't you wear here?

Depends on your skin color, cultural misappropriation, for what you can't take.

Well, you can't really be comparing that to

hundreds of millions of women who have to wear a fucking bag over their head.

I mean,

of course not.

But the point is, we can't do anything about that.

But the best we can do, I think, is to take a look at what's happening over there and use it as a reminder to just look in the mirror and say, we are that signing seat down a hill.

How are we best living up to our example?

And I think that we've been imperfect in COVID, COVID policy.

Kids in schools losing school for a year.

Well, China was bad.

We weren't as bad.

But there were some things that we can learn and hopefully use this as an occasion for the people.

Interesting.

I think we could do something about the women who have to wear burqas and have to cover their faces.

The liberals in this country have never stood up against that.

I mean, the way they did against apartheid and other issues that are, you know, plainly anti-lab.

I mean, just imagine a world where this didn't exist, where no one ever threw a bag over a woman like she was a motorboat.

And then somebody

and then somebody

suggested we do that tomorrow in Kentucky.

Somebody said, let's start covering women completely so they can't see anything.

Well, part of the problem is we have this tension between, you know, Islamophobia is something that you worry and you can't criticize severe Islamism anymore, and that's in conflict with women's rights, so what do you do?

Same thing that happens in Afghanistan when women aren't able to go to school, girls aren't able to go to school anymore.

We ignore the issue and move on when those different politically current countries come into conflict.

It's a big thing in this country now and have for years about immigration, but we don't have the kind of immigration problems other countries have because we're very lucky.

The immigrants who come here, they really want to be here.

They don't want to really change our culture.

They're friendly.

They want to work.

I mean,

this nonsense of what's going on with Martha's Vineyard.

I mean,

if you missed it, you know, the governor of Florida and Texas sending migrants to make a point about, look, things happen here at the border.

We have thousands and hundreds of thousands of people coming over and you're not helping.

So we're going to send people to these sanctuary cities where you say you welcome them.

Okay, was it a political stunt?

Of course.

Is it it a ridiculous way to handle immigration policy?

Yes.

But, you know,

this talk that these 50 migrants in Martha's Vineyard, I've been to Martha's Vineyard, it's very nice.

Yeah, not a bad spot.

I mean,

some of these, Tim Kaine, these poor Venezuelans, what they're suffering, yeah, from the governor of Venezuela.

is where they were suffering.

They're not suffering so badly.

And then I read the

person from,

and this is Telemunda reporter, I can tell you they are not angry at Ron DeSantis, thanking him for having, they are thanking him for having brought them to Martha's Vineyard.

I would too.

People pay a lot of money to go to Martha's Vineyard.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, not that.

I'm sorry, go ahead.

Now, the confusion is, it seems like a lot of people who ended up at Martha's Vineyard didn't know where they were going.

And there's some suggestion, and there's some lawsuits now being filed, being like, well, they didn't know where they're going, that they're not being, but they obviously are being treated with them.

They went there and they've been been welcomed with open arms it's not like they had a destination anyway they didn't book this on travelocity this

it's not like i mean

it's it's it's it's so ridiculous because this is a country that desperately needs immigrants right now we have 11 million job openings

restaurants can't find people to do the very jobs that these people are very willing and want to do.

If this country was not so dysfunctional, we would just match two problems,

people we need and people who want to get here, and we would place them all around the country.

I can imagine a world where the governor of Massachusetts and the governor of Florida were not enemies, and one just said, hey, it's summer here in

Martha's Vineyard.

Could you send up some help?

And he said, we'd be happy to, and they'd be happy to go.

But we have to make this into something, some fake humanitarian crisis.

Well, I think you hit on something there.

Obviously, there's a desperate need for comprehensive immigration reform.

There has been for years.

That hasn't happened because it's become too politically toxic because of the pandemic.

And what instead we're having is a conversation about, as you say correctly, is a stunt.

That DeSantis is sending these migrants to other places and what is a clear base play, a clear effort for 2024 for him.

And that's what we're talking about is the political football rather than the actual heart of the issue, which is the fact this country does need immigrants.

It needs a policy to figure out how to get them here.

I mean, look, I'll speak as a kid of immigrants, first generation American.

Okay, I agree with everything you said.

Immigrants come not as victims, but as underdogs to this country.

I think they can be the lifeblood of the American dream.

I will say this, is that we sidestep.

We're talking about the stunt.

I'm done talking about the stunt.

Let's talk about the actual issue that people disagree on, which is, can a country legitimately decide who does and doesn't get to enter its borders?

I think that a country can legitimately make that decision.

A lot of progressives on the other side say that they can't legitimately make that decision, that we need open borders.

Great, let's have that debate.

I personally...

Well, they don't say open borders.

Well, some do.

You know, Farad Manjo and the New York Times has made the case for it, but

for completely open borders, like come one, come all.

I mean, I think there's a spectrum of opinions.

At the far left end of the spectrum, there's absolutely a case for open borders.

But most Democrats would not say open borders.

It appears that way.

I take your point, because when you're not willing to say who can't come in, it does sound like you want open borders.

And the reason why the Democrats, be honest, won't say that is because they fear more than anything being thought of as racist.

Sure.

And once we use labels, racist, xenophobic, pick your label of choice, we lose the ability to have the actual debate.

And I think there's a rich debate to say that, you know what, there should be a lottery system.

That's what we have in this country for many immigrants.

It's a lottery system.

It's random.

I don't like that approach even to legal immigration.

I think we should be selective about picking the people who want to come to this country to be part of its ideals, to purposefully opt in and say that, you know what, I want to be a citizen of that country.

Don't make them take the citizenship test after their seven years of green card.

Make them actually opt into it and take a civic test before they get into this country.

I think we should open the front door as much as we can for people who want to opt in, but close the door to the rest.

Let's have a clear-headed debate about it.

I think that could lead to a more sensible policy.

Well,

yeah, I mean, some of that, I guess, could have gotten applause.

But, okay.

There it is.

There it is.

You guys got it.

A minute late.

A minute late.

Thank you, sir.

Yeah, I mean, look, I was watching the funeral of Queen Elizabeth for the past nine months, and

I feel like,

I mean, I was, I think, like a lot of people, kind of surprised at the outpouring.

And I feel like it wasn't just about her, although she was great, we must say that.

I think it was about a Britain.

also

that's gone.

And I think that's part of the immigration issue we're dealing with.

And you see that all over over the world.

That was Brexit.

That's in a lot of places where people feel like, I mean, Sweden, of all places, just elected right-wingers, I mean, hard right into their government, because people have a right to say, you know what, we're welcoming,

we want a diverse population, but if you're changing the very character of the country,

that's a bridge too far.

And I think that's what happened in England with Brexit.

And I think something happened in Britain when she died, and people were like, you know what?

There's something to the British way of life, whatever that is, and you're more than welcome to come here.

I mean, I remember when London was all white in the 80s when I first went there, and now it's a very beautiful, diverse city, and that's better.

But it's a British city, and there is a British way of life.

And, you know, melting pots, you know, melt a little.

Well, certainly in Italy also right now potentially electing more of a right-wing leader there.

This is a debate about nationalism.

It's a debate about national identity as well.

And we're seeing it in Europe.

We've seen it here in the United States, too.

That's something that Donald Trump tapped into in 2016.

His hardline immigration stance, this idea of, in some ways, very framed as us versus them.

And we're seeing that, that's still a debate that is happening here, even as some of the authoritarians are on the run, but some of those right-wing ideas are not.

I mean, the only thing I would observe is I think Europe is different than the United States.

Most European countries are built on a common language, a common monarch, a common religion, even common genetic stock.

I know it's difficult to say that out loud, but that's part of the identity, the national identity of many European nations.

America is different.

America was born on a set of ideas

that brought together a divided polyglot group of people.

And so, you know what?

I'm not afraid of the word nationalism, but to me, American nationalism or exceptionalism is a belief in the ideas that bound those group of people together.

And if we want to select for immigrants to say that we want the immigrants who bind to those ideas, by God, I stand by that.

But that's different than saying you have to be our color of our skin or that you have to abide by some tradition.

I must say

I am a little afraid of the word nationalism.

Just a bit

a little bit.

Nationalism has led to things to be scared of.

Yeah, okay.

But look, on this show, we like to cover all issues.

You know, some of these wrap-up shows, they don't really get to everything, but on this show, here at Real Time, we are dedicated.

So I just wanted to bring to your attention this week: Australia had its first fatal kangaroo attack

since 1936.

And I just got to to say, the media is ridiculous.

Not you.

You're fantastic.

Thank you.

But the rest of the media.

And you just see the way different outlets cover this.

I mean, they just want to always gin up the story and make it the biggest scandal they possibly can.

So look at some of these, and this just happened this week.

Here's CNN: Death by Kangaroo Hits 86-year high.

I mean,

look at this.

What's behind the historical spike in kangaroo attacks?

Kangaroo deaths now the leading cause of standing the fuck back.

How to survive your inevitable kangaroo attack.

Trump, build a wall around Australia.

A missing white girl feared eaten by kangaroos.

Dennis Rodman Rodman offers to meet with kangaroos.

Top Republicans Biden soft on kangaroos.

Kangaroo deniers call marsupials a hoax.

An animal with a pocket, what's next?

A duck with belt loops?

Proudboy March ends with chant, Ruse will not replace us.

We cover every story here.

But

can I just go back to the migrants in Martha's Vineyard for one more second?

Because I just saw the pictures of them being greeted by the people while I'm being told it's a humanitarian crisis.

And I mean the situation writ large is a humanitarian crisis, but this, and I'm like, just don't tell me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing.

I find it insulting.

Okay, so the guy, and then the New York Times, this is the New Woke Times of all,

they did a whole

profile of this Venezuelan guy

who came here.

I feel fortunate, he says at the end, that the governor put me on a bus to Washington.

It opened up doors for me.

Again, just don't tell me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing.

So

your book is about victims.

I thought when I read this, there's a Boston law firm now and a nonprofit who have banded together to file a lawsuit on behalf of the people, the 50 Venezuelans in Martha's Vineyard.

They were here two days and they got a lawsuit.

It says they've suffered economic, emotional and constitutional harms.

Two days in the country.

It was off-peak season.

Right.

Sometimes they had to play doubles when the courts were crowded.

No, I mean, no, it's not been easy.

But again, so I just just thought maybe since your book is about victims, you would want to talk about what you think, how this relates.

Yeah, I mean, it pays to be a victim in this country, but it pays to turn other people into victims too.

I want to learn what cut of the profits those attorneys are going to get from their judgments against Ron DeSantis in their civil suit.

At the end of the day, most immigrants do come to this country as underdogs.

I mean, they come here to be scrappy.

They want to use their own efforts and talents to rise to the top.

But now, if someone shows up and says, hey, you're a person of color, you've been exploited.

And guess what?

You could be entitled to damages, which I get a cunt of.

Victimhood becomes a currency.

It's trading at a bubble, and people are just cashing in, using other people to cash in their chips when it's trading at a high.

And that's how we've gone from being this nation of underdogs to this nation of victims and even polluting people who come to this country as underdogs, turning them into thinking themselves as victims.

I think it's immoral.

Victimhood has also certainly become a political identity as well.

I mean, Donald Trump's entire campaign was about victims and grievance.

Whiny little bitch.

Yeah,

that's right.

He's the biggest whiny little bitch ever.

I can't say that on my show, but I'm glad you can do that.

I've said it a thousand times.

I'm sorry, finished with you.

No, but that is part of it.

It is things are unfair, things are rigged, things are stolen.

This has been the mantra of him and a significant portion of the electorate now for six or seven years.

And it's certainly, it's accelerating now and bleeding into every facet of the political domain.

Yeah, and look, I've been a big critic of, you know, in my last book, whatever, woke victimhood, left-wing victimhood.

I had a chapter in this book about black victimhood.

They said, you can't write that because you're not black.

I don't believe in that.

If you're going to care about actually addressing problems, it's going to have to be through open debate, no matter the color of your skin.

But the chapter right after was about the rise of white victimhood culture in response.

And as someone who's maybe more right of center, I'm disappointed in the conservative victimhood complexes where we have the victimhood grievance Olympics, where you say, you're a victim, I'm a bigger victim.

America loses in the end.

There is no gold medalist in the victimhood Olympics.

It's our country that loses.

And I hope that both parties, and part of the reason I actually took the time to do that in this book is I hope that more people on the left do the same thing to left-wing victimhood as well.

We don't need to point out the other tribe's problem.

We each need to point out problems with our own tribe to revive the pursuit of excellence.

That's what I'd like to do.

So we're all agreeing that it's a problem on both sides.

Yep.

Right?

Okay.

So why?

Why did America as a country, country, because I do think when historians write about America from 100 years hence, if we're still here.

Let's hope.

Yeah, let's hope.

Or five years, because who knows,

I think they will see that the pathologies did cross the tribes.

They will not talk about

the way we talk about ourselves tribally.

They will say the people, the American people, became

in love with victimhood.

But why?

When did it change?

Because it didn't seem to me that it was on either side, and now it's on both sides.

I think it's a problem of incumbency.

So victimhood is a product of incumbency.

We're in the middle of the largest intergenerational wealth transfer in human history, from baby boomers to millennials.

And there's a famous quote that's often attributed to the founder of Abu Dhabi, where he says that, my grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I ride a Mercedes, my son rides a Land Rover, my grandson rides a Land Rover, but my great-grandson is going to have to ride a camel again.

And it's just a cycle of history where at the end of the the day you get that much entitlement, that much inheritance.

By the way, I think that, you know what, we should think heavily about whether or not we want this level of inner generation.

So you're saying that they

spoiled the generations and then they became in love with victimhood.

They found that it comes out of entitlement and then laziness and victimhood fits laziness like a glove.

Yeah, I guess

it's very,

I find it very corrosive.

I was reading about the, you know, we talked about on the show a lot the cheating that went on with the COVID relief money.

I mean the hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars that were just stolen.

And I think that comes out of that too.

You know, when people think of themselves as victims, then it's okay to cheat.

Right.

I think there is a sense that people have a perception that others have advantages that they don't have, and they need to try to level the playing field.

And again, it plays into this sort of lot of the political conversation and the political identity of grievance and victimhood.

I spent, as a campaign reporter, you know, you can take pity on me, hundreds or more Trump rallies in 2016.

And one of the refrains, though, from people who were there, you'd hear night after night, and I captured some of this in my book, is the idea that people would say, like, well, I'm here for this guy because, you know, I've lived in this town for 40 years and I haven't got a raise in 20.

The factory closed.

This is the first time that I can't guarantee that my children will have a better life than me.

And there's a sense of being left out.

Meanwhile, someone else is getting a hand up.

Someone else is benefiting.

And that could be an immigrant or that could be the elite.

But we, the real Americans, are being left behind.

and I think there's that sense of grievance and victimhood that leads to what we're seeing here and including cutting corners if they can to get their hand out.

Right.

The tragedy of course of the Republican voter, the Trump voter certainly is that he didn't do anything to fix that or to change that.

No.

I mean he solved exactly zero of their problems.

Now, one of the cases that I make though is that we can sit here and observe and be victims about our victimhood culture and I don't want to do that.

How do we restore our path back to excellence?

And this is hard to say.

I think we've got to be willing to forgive.

And I think that's not a conversation we've had enough in this country.

I think the path from victimhood to excellence has to run through forgiveness, even as it relates to

the reaction to victimhood.

I think

a good first step would be to do something about this shop teacher in Canada with the giant tits.

Have you seen, look at

this is is a real person who's really a teacher.

You didn't read about this?

Okay, her name is Kyla Lemieux.

She's in, oh, Oakville.

I know Oakville.

I love Oakville.

That's in Ontario, Canada, which is a big blue state to the north.

And she just transitioned about a year ago, and she insists on wearing these enormous prosthetic.

I mean, you saw the picture.

I haven't seen anything like this since Juggs Magazine.

You remember Juggs Magazine, John?

We used to have a subscription

under the mattress.

I will say, though,

there is a case to be made about victimhood about the back pain that she probably has each and every day.

Okay, so this is what you know, Oakville.

They completely stood by her.

The school district talking about equitable treatment without discrimination.

Yes, we're all for that.

Without based not upon gender, yes, identity expression, we're all for that.

Regardless of race, age, ability.

Ability, I don't know what they mean by that.

If they mean you're in a wheelchair and you get equal treatment, of course, if they mean you just can't do your job, and they might because people are nuts,

I don't, I can't, race, age, ability, sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity, yes, you said race, religion, cultural observance, socioeconomic circumstance, body type, size.

Okay, we're for everything, but the giant tits are scaring the children.

I mean, come on.

It's not, I mean, can you just do anything?

I think there's two sides.

I'm going to give you two sides to this, all right?

I get it.

Two sides.

One is the trans victimhood standards.

Kind of go both ways with this.

So the trans victimhood side of this is, look, actually, there's a little bit of irony with the breast implants, okay?

If you're a cis woman who wants to feel more feminine, you don't get your breast implants paid for.

But if you're a trans woman who needs a breast implant, somehow you expect that society pays for it.

That's an example of what I call trans victimhood.

On the other hand, you know, I have to admit, when I read this story, these are high school kids.

I would feel differently if these were first graders.

But at the end of the day, maybe this woman needs help, maybe needs some

coaching.

Are you nuts?

No, no, no.

What are you fucking talking about?

I mean, this is there are breast implants.

That's one thing.

This is something.

What if she came in with a giant cock?

What if it was the reverse?

I think it's true.

These are high school students.

They're about to be grown adults.

We also need to stop worrying about it and let people live their lives what they want.

Okay, but

this woman obviously needs help.

Did you see that picture?

This is a person who needs help, and we're always pretending for the sake of, it's all in your book, that we just have to go along with anything.

What if I did this show with a pile of dog shit on my head?

And you'd all just be like, well, that Bill wears dog shit on his head now.

All right, thank you.

I got to go to New Rules.

New rules, everybody.

Thank you, pal.

Okay.

New rule, if your funeral takes two weeks, it's not a ceremony.

It's a going-out of business sale.

They say that 90% of the people on earth never knew a time when Queen Elizabeth wasn't queen.

Okay, but five million babies have been born since she died.

They've never known a world where she wasn't being buried.

I'm all for thank you, ma'am, but what happened to Wham Bam?

New rule, the University of Colorado researchers who conducted a study to determine if turning off your air conditioner during the day would result in more energy savings than leaving it on have to conduct a new study to see if people who drive their car pay more for gas than people who leave it parked.

And then one to determine if people who go to prostitutes pay more for sex than people who stay home and jerk off.

And on and on until they get an email from the university asking, what the fuck are you doing?

New rule, the makers of Lucky Soy Sauce have to admit they chose that name because if you manage to tear the packet open without getting soy sauce all over the table, you're lucky.

Neural dogs have to try a different position.

Seriously, would it kill you to give her a little eye contact every once in a while?

I mean, mix it up a little.

She's not your bitch.

Okay, technically, she's literally your bitch.

Neural, the Harvard astronomer who believes that this asteroid may in fact be an alien spaceship, has to admit, if it is, it sucks.

How disappointing if this is what an alien spaceship looks like.

I was expecting something sleek and shiny and stealthy, not close encounters of the third kind.

And finally, new rule: you don't really love America if you hate half the people in it.

And also, if you hate a lot of the things that everybody always loved about it,

there's an oft-repeated moment in political debates where the moderator says to the two candidates, say something nice about your opponent.

Can you say one nice thing, something that you admire about your opponent?

Say something nice about Representative Deal.

Tell us something that you admire about your opponent.

Can you say something nice about your opponent?

I mean,

it's always so awkward because the candidates just spent an hour describing how America would be an out-of-control dumpster fire if the other guy won the election.

But they still try to answer it.

I respect his children.

I commend him for what he's doing around cats.

He was an Eagle Scout.

I think that's terrific.

That you are a very well-dressed

opponent.

You have a very good golf game.

And those two little boys.

They are so cute.

Okay, I say the next time we have debates, the moderator needs to frame that question a little differently, as say something about America that you like, because honestly, I don't know.

Why the people who are fighting for this country so hard even want it anymore.

Republicans, I'll start with you.

I really want to know, what do you like about America?

It's not democracy.

You stand with a president who tried to pull off a coup, and a dozen Republican nominees for Senate and governor in this year's midterms say they absolutely will not commit to accepting the results.

Elections only count when we win them.

That's what America is to you now?

That shows more disrespect for the flag than any football player ever could.

Utah Senator Mike Lee says outright, we're not a democracy.

No, not the way you want to run things.

This year, at least 27 states have introduced or enacted laws that restrict voting.

If you say you love America, don't you also have to love the idea of everyone getting to vote?

Don't you have to love the peaceful transfer of power?

Republicans.

Republicans remind me of the trophy hunters who say they love wildlife.

Yeah, then why do you shoot it?

Republicans used to be the rule of law people and lionized the officers who upheld it.

But when rioters stormed the citadel and symbol of America on January 6th, most Republicans took their side and not the side of the police, over 100 of whom were wounded.

Fuck the police.

That is the clarion call of the Republican Party now?

When did the GOP become NWA?

And then there's the FBI.

Steve Bannon says that the Gestapo.

Marjorie Taylor Greene says they should be defunded.

Congressman Paul Gosar says we must destroy the FBI.

What?

The FBI is not American now?

FBI agents are so square they yell four when they ejaculate.

They think matching windbreakers are cool.

Their flag pins have flagpins.

And the military, it used to be in the same category, the bedrock of the superpatriot crowd.

But Trump began his first campaign by doing something that up till then was unthinkable.

He mocked and derided a war hero, a Republican war hero, who'd been shot down, imprisoned, and tortured.

And it was not a bridge too far for Republicans.

They shrugged and walked across it, as they did when Trump called the Joint Chiefs losers.

And our soldiers who died in World War I losers.

Ted Cruz calls today's troops pansies, and Republican Senate nominee Blake Masters says our generals are left-wing corporate bozos.

That's the patriotic view of our military broth.

Maybe that's why Trump said he wished they acted more like the Nazi generals we fought in World War II.

Yeah, we won that one, by the way.

So

I ask again, if you don't like democracy, voting, the FBI, the military, and cops, what about America do you like?

Oh, I know, the Constitution.

That's right.

The grand old, oh, what's that?

Congressman Lauren Boebert says what?

She says, I'm tired of this separation of church and state junk that's not in the Constitution.

But it is in the Constitution, and it's another one of those pillars of this country that if you don't believe in it, it makes me wonder why you're fighting so hard for this place at all.

And that is what's so odd about this time that we're living in.

For all the talk about fighting for the soul of America, nobody seems to like it very much.

Too many liberals give the impression that to them, America is just a big,

the red, white, and ugh.

A country that started out bad and will always be bad, founded on an unrelenting history of sucking

and unable to change.

But we have changed a lot.

Democrat Corey Bush tweeted, this land is stolen land and black people still aren't free.

And this was on the 4th of July, really.

Not that I give a shit about the 4th of July.

I've never been a rah-rah guy.

But I am a perspective guy.

And that's what too much of the left has lost, perspective.

72% of black people under 30 are optimistic about their future in America.

Way more than white people the same age.

And as far as the land goes, yes, I guess we could change the name of Captain America to Captain Stolen Land.

But honestly, to all the people who start every public event now with one of those land acknowledgements where they say, I'm standing on land that was stolen from the proud indigenous people of the Chumash tribe, I say either give it back or shut the fuck up.

AOC says so many people in this country hate women.

Oh, geez.

Even the guy at the party who pulls out a guitar is like, way to ruin the fun.

Congressman Jamal Bowman says, capitalism is slavery by another name.

No, it's not.

It's the thing that has given more people more prosperity and hope than any other system, flawed though it surely is.

But again,

Something like the free market is kind of synonymous with America.

And if you don't like it, I don't know how you can say you love this country.

You know who loves this country?

You know who's not constantly complaining about what happened 200 years ago and who's not obsessed with seeing America through shit-colored glasses and shaking off the stench of what irredeemable, privileged assholes we are?

Immigrants.

Ask any of them why they came here, and they will tell you the same thing.

Ron DeSantis put me on a plane.

But they will also tell you that America, for all that's so shitty about it right now, is still the last best hope.

And those people asking for our votes to take it over should remember that.

All right, that's our show.

I'll be at the Klein Ins Music Hall in Buffalo, October night, the Foxwoods in Mashantucket, Connecticut, November 13th, and Mirage in Vegas, November 25th and 26th.

I want to thank Rave Ramaswamy, Jonathan Lanier, and Michael Moore.

Now go to YouTube and see us there on Overtime.

Thank you, folks.

Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand.

For more information, log on to HBO.com.