Ep. #457: Michael Avenatti, Jordan Peterson

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Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Night Series, Real Time with Bill Ma.

Start the clock.

Right here with me.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

I don't have to.

I think today you know why I'm happy

No,

420, I know you know.

You know it, you know what?

You know what that means.

Your taxes are five days late, donors.

Did you sign that check on April 15th?

Well, even when there's a good president in the White House, that is a painful check to sign.

It's really tough when you know it's going to redecorate Scott Pruitt's office.

I wrote on the memo line on my check, dining room table for Ben Carson.

Have you read about this fucking guy, Scott Pruitt, this EPA?

Maybe the most corrupt official ever in a cabinet.

And now he wants to change, I love this, the logo.

of the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency, to a picture of a buffalo and a Bible verse.

Because nothing says environmental protection like a picture of an animal we almost drove to extinction and

a book that doesn't believe in science.

So let's see what's going on on season two of The Apprentice,

White House Edition.

The big villain of the week this week for Donald Trump is Jim Comey, former FBI Director Comey, because he's out there selling a book.

Boy, he's on more TV shows than Michael Evenetti.

Oh, Michael's here.

Oh,

he's on every show.

No, but I saw Jim Comey was on Dr.

Oz this morning, showing Dr.

Oz where Trump touched him with dolls.

I mean, it's just

And Trump has a new lawyer, you heard this, Rudy Giuliani

from the law firm of Jacobi and Dracula.

Hey, Rudy got famous by attaching himself to a pile of rubble.

It could work again, you know.

So first Trump goes to Washington.

Now, Giuliani, congratulations, New York.

You're slowly getting rid of your rat problem.

But the guy who is really sweating it out these days is Michael Cohen.

Michael Cohen, Trump's criminal lawyer.

And when I say criminal lawyer, I mean a lawyer who's a criminal.

He always looks like his meetings take place on a park bench.

And every consultation ends with the words, this never happened.

He's the one who famously said, I'd take a bullet for Donald Trump.

Well, now that he's looking at prison time, we'll see if he's willing to take a dick.

But here's.

Here was something positive this week.

Congratulations to Kendrick Lamar.

You heard what happened there.

He's the

first rapper to win one of the world's most prestigious prizes, the bathroom coat at Starbucks.

Yes, that's in support of what you like.

Fucking liberals, get Jordan Peterson out here right now.

I'm going to fucking kick some asses.

No, you heard about what happened at the Starbucks in Philadelphia?

They ordered two blacks to go.

Yes, what happened was two African-American gentlemen were at Starbucks meeting a white guy, waiting on him.

That's the first interesting thing here.

The white guy was running late.

And apparently waiting while black is not allowed at this Starbucks, so the authorities were called and it made national news when the cops showed up because they didn't shoot them.

But, you know.

So stupid.

I mean, what kind of criminals hang out at Starbucks?

I mean, aside from Michael Cohen.

And also, I mean, these guys spend 20 minutes listening to Lana Del Wright.

Isn't that punishment enough?

All right, we got a great show.

Alex Wagner, Frank Brudy, and Jay Winston are here.

And a little later, we'll be speaking with author and professor Jordan Peterson.

But first off, he's not only the attorney who represents Stormy Daniels, he's Donald Trump's worst nightmare, Michael.

I want this recorded.

A lawyer got a standing ovation.

Yes, you are something of a folk hero now.

How are you coping with your newfound fame?

I imagine you can't go anywhere.

Well, wait until we actually accomplish something in the coming months.

Okay, well, that's a good attitude because, you know, I think the reason why liberals love you is and Stormy, you know, who's, I think, acquitted herself very well.

She looks very credible, and she seems like a good person.

Okay,

but let's be honest, the whole reason that we're in love with you and Stormy is because we think you guys are the tip of the spear that's going to take down Donald Trump.

It's all about that.

Now, I know she's just your client, and this is one case for you.

But walk me through how

our dreams can come true.

No, really, because

honestly.

So, you want me to tell you about the foreplays, basically.

Well, you're working pro boner, is that correct?

Exactly.

One porn star joke, I promise.

That's it.

But no, I mean,

how does it get from

you winning a case to Donald Trump leaving the White House, or can it?

Well, I mean, I think we're going to get an opportunity to depose Michael Cohen and the president within the next 60 to 90 days.

And I think that what we've seen, Bill, is the dominoes have already started to fall.

And I truly believe that this is the Achilles heel of the president.

He has trusted a moron with

his innermost secrets and

the problem is that he has surrounded himself in his adult life with people that are incompetent and the chickens are going to come home to roost.

He isn't.

But okay, I'm not a lawyer, depose.

Does that mean you, is that when like a guy serves you?

No, that means you raise your right hand.

I know, but like how does that, how do you actually make Donald Trump show up?

Well, we get a federal judge to order him to appear for a deposition.

And a federal judge you think will do that?

I do.

I think Judge Otero here in Los Angeles, who is one of the best of the people.

And it could be any federal judge?

It could be, well, it could be any federal judge, but it's going to be Judge Otero in this case here in Los Angeles.

Because

he fucked her here in L.A.?

What?

Why?

Why?

No, because we filed here in Los Angeles.

Okay.

Sound like I'm letting the cat out of the bag.

It was a

Okay.

But they did spend some time at the Beverly Hills Hotel.

Right.

Talking about shark wheat.

Okay.

Right.

And you think Donald Trump will really show up either?

I do.

You do?

I do, absolutely.

I don't.

You don't.

I absolutely don't.

Well, that's going to set off what's called a constitutional crisis.

Do you think he gives a fuck?

Well, I think he should.

He should, but he should.

Donald Trump should.

Hello.

He should do a lot of things.

No, I just don't think, and then what happens if he doesn't show up?

Well, it's going to be, you know, maybe they'll send out the U.S.

Marshals for him.

I don't know.

It'll be his doings against your doings.

But you know what?

I would look forward to that if it happened.

Yeah, I would.

I think it would be fantastic.

Oh, my God.

I think it'd be fantastic.

I think it'd be good TV.

But here's what I think is a big canard that we hear all the time, that the president is not above the law.

He certainly is above the law.

No, he thinks he's above the law.

No, he is above the law in the sense that you can't just arrest a guy like Donald Trump when he is the president.

You have to impeach him.

If I broke a law and you told me, well, the only way they can get you, Bill, is not just to arrest you.

or try you in court.

You have to get 435 people, a majority of them, to impeach you.

And then you have to get another two-thirds of 100 people to convict you.

I'd say that's quite different than what the ordinary citizen has to face.

I would agree with that, but I think, Bill, that Michael Cohen knows where almost all the bodies are buried.

And I think he is going to sing like a canary.

Like you cannot, like you can, like,

Bill, Bill,

here's the problem.

You think he'll fold?

No, I know he's going to fold.

Wow.

Because here's the problem.

When you have a fixer, fixer, you need two things at least.

You need a guy that's tough, and you need a guy that is smart.

This guy is neither tough nor smart.

You're not a big fan of Michael Cohen.

You know who Donald Trump?

I think he's a zero.

You know who Donald Trump totally wishes he had?

You.

He can't.

That's exactly who he is.

Here's the problem with Mr.

Prime.

No, I know he can't.

He can't buy my client, and he can't buy me.

No, I'm not saying he would.

I'm just saying he looks at you on TV and goes, why can't I get that fucking guy on my TV?

Why am I stuck with this junkyard dog?

You're right, he's an idiot.

So tell me how the Sean Hannity thing leads to anything.

And also, so Michael Cohen was Sean Hannity's lawyer, but he denies that and says, I didn't understand this at all when he said, I slipped him $10 once.

By the way,

I think Sean overpaid by $9.

First of all,

would you not be terribly insulted if somebody slipped you $10 and said, could I have some legal advice?

I mean, I give the valet $20.

You get what you pay for.

I know, but what does that mean?

So that means that they had a real contract?

It doesn't, I don't know what he said.

Why did he say that?

And what does it mean?

And where does that go?

Here's what I think.

I think that when the documents actually come out and there are documents, there's no question in my mind, there are documents with Sean Hannity's name on them, the extent of that relationship, when it finally surfaces, I think will be very embarrassing to Sean Hannity.

And you don't think Michael Cohen destroyed evidence before the raid happened?

Well, I think actually the reason why they were able to get the warrants is because they had him under electronic surveillance beforehand.

And Michael Cohen didn't realize it.

He didn't realize it.

And I think the basis, ultimately, the American people will learn that the basis for the warrants was the fact that the FBI and the U.S.

Attorney's Office had reason to believe that Michael Cohen was undertaking efforts to destroy documents.

I think that's what's going to come out.

Okay.

Well, I just worry, I see all this giddiness on MSNBC about all this, and I just worry that it's going to get to a certain point, and then Donald Trump is just going to go, I either pardon everybody or I'm not showing up, and then it comes to nothing.

But my other worry about it is that

it's taking a lot of energy away from real issues.

Do you ever worry about that?

I know you have your own case to worry about, but

I think the cover-up and lying to the American people is always a real issue.

Yes, but

it's actually not what polls say people care about.

They care about health care, which doesn't get a lot of coverage.

They care about the tax cut, which doesn't get a lot of coverage, because they're all chasing stories like this.

I'm not saying you should stop doing what you're doing.

Well, that's good, because we're not.

Yeah, I know.

No, I think it's great what you're doing, and I also think it's great that you have allowed a porn star to be shown to the American public as a real person, because, you know, porn stars, strippers, playmates, cheerleaders, we found out

what a rotten life they have.

These are the last people it's okay to shit on in America.

You know, men can't admit they know them.

Women certainly aren't going to defend them.

Look, see?

And so

you brought someone out into the line.

You've done a good deal.

And what about the future for you in politics?

Do you think you would ever want to get into the ring?

I mean, obviously, when you get a standing ovation, that's a lot of.

Well, as you know, there's a small matter that I'm presently focused on.

Right.

But, you know, we'll see how that goes.

And I'll tell you what, if at the end of that you decide that that makes sense for me, I'll do it.

Hey, how about that?

Here's some news.

Michael, thank you.

Yes, you keep doing what you're doing.

You throw him, brother.

You throw him.

All right, let's meet our panel.

Okay.

Hey, everybody.

Good evening.

How are you?

Nice to see you.

Oh, thank you.

He's a columnist for the New York Times, a columnist.

He's one of my favorites on my breakfast table every day.

Frank Bruni is over here.

Frank Bruni.

He's a contributor to CVS News in the Atlantic, co-host of Showtimes the Circus, and author of Future Face, A Family Mystery, an Epic Quest, and the Secret to Belonging, Alex Wagner.

What a long intro you got, Alex.

Come on.

And he is the Democratic governor of the great state of Washington.

I was there last weekend in Seattle.

It's awesome.

Jay Inslee, thank you very much, Governor.

Great to meet you.

All right, don't forget to send us your questions, but tonight's overtime, so we can answer them after the show on YouTube.

I want to talk about Starbucks first, because I feel like that's another one of those episodes we periodically have in America where we find out that the racial struggle is far from over.

Now, of course, we know that a majority of Republicans believe that reverse racism is the bigger problem.

So this is going to be a tough sell to them.

But here's what's happening.

May 29, Starbucks is going to close all its doors.

for racial sensitivity training.

You know, I know some people have said, well, that's overreaction.

I also think it's not the worst idea in the world if every corporation in America would close their doors for one day and talk about race with the people who work for them.

This country is so, at this particular moment, this country is so invested in denying racism.

It is great to see a country invest in acknowledging racism and trying to do something about it.

Yeah, this seems particularly sad because Starbucks and those kind of upscale coffee places seem they're a little like the new town square, right?

I mean that started in Seattle, right, Starbucks?

That's

your home state.

And, you know, it seemed like a kind of place where they were telling people, we're not trying to move you along.

I know there are some restaurants, you know how waiters are, hey, can you finish with that?

It's like, just tell me to get the fuck out.

Okay, I know what you're doing.

You want us to get out.

You want that.

But Starbucks wasn't like that.

It was like, please, linger.

It's your second home.

It's the gig economy.

A lot of people don't have an office.

Work on your screenplay while you get jacked up on caffeine.

So to hustle people along because they're black seemed particularly egregious.

Well, listen, we're glad in Washington State we're going to have a company that isn't serving just coffee, we're going to serve justice by fixing this problem.

And we need to do it.

And those Republicans to say that the arc of history that has arrived at paradise when racism does not exist doesn't understand history or psychology.

King talked about the long arc of justice.

It's long, but it bends to justice.

Look, we're not at the end of that arc.

We're maybe at the middle.

And we have got to, all of us, I think, ought to be following Starbucks' example.

We've done that in the state of Washington, where I've had our cabinet members go through this training to understand inherent bias.

We know it's deep.

We know the neuroscience makes us somewhat suspicious of people don't look like us in the mirror.

And I can't wait till we have a perfect union where if you go into Starbucks or the state of Washington or in Washington, D.C., you're judged on the content of your character, not your skin.

We're not there yet.

It's time for the Republicans to figure that out.

I believe that.

No, I think Starbucks is sending an incredibly important signal to all of America.

But there's an irony here for me because the place that I would really like to see closed for a day of racial sensitivity training is the Oval Office.

No, I mean

in all seriousness, one day for Starbucks employees is not going to change the world, but we have a leader of our country right now who I think sends the opposite signal of the one Starbucks is trying to do that.

But let's not, I mean, and let's,

what they're doing is really important, and conversation is really important.

And allowing people, creating a space where people can say, I am fearful of people of color and this is why.

That is the beginning, that is the beginning step to navigating all of this.

And as simple as that is, it is so necessary in this moment in time.

Allowing people to say, I harbor bias.

I don't know why.

How do I deal with it?

But I want to introduce one more thing into this conversation, which is that I think a lot of the racism we're talking about happens way further upstream than what happened at the Starbucks, which is 40% of the homeless people in this country are African Americans.

Okay, so I don't know what the person who called the police was thinking, but because this is a society that doesn't have public bathrooms because they get trashed in a day,

and because we allow homelessness, I mean, I see it all the time here in LA.

There are 10 cities which you drive around.

Yeah, there's some pictures of them.

That's why there are people in Starbucks who a barista might think, yes, they are using the bathroom to shoot up.

We can't care about racism without caring about homelessness.

We can't care about racism without caring about public education.

And we've stopped talking about that in this administration because we're so distracted by the melodrama all the time.

Well, but also, I mean,

what happened in Starbucks tells us something about the way we see people of color and our economy and class and racism, which are twinned, right?

The idea that two black men could not possibly be sitting in Starbucks because they were having a business meeting, but should be arrested for being loiterers, tells us that we don't see people of color as being high enough on the income ladder to possibly be CEOs, associates.

These people didn't, whoever called the police.

But it tells us something about our society.

Absolutely.

That we can no longer see people of color as economically franchised.

But it starts with bad schools, lead in the water, bad neighborhoods, not enough jobs.

That leads to the homelessness.

That leads to the system.

Well,

let's hope this is a moment, right?

We've had some moments recently.

Let's hope this is a moment where this inspired police departments to make sure they have this training in police departments.

Let's make sure it's a moment where we get school teachers to talk about why African-American males are subject to discipline in schools like two or three times more likely.

Let's talk about a moment about why we're not responding to the opioid crisis.

If we have these moments, the Starbucks could be a good thing for all of us.

And I'm happy about it.

It came from Washington, by the way.

Did I mention that?

Yes, you did.

I feel like I have an obligation on this show to bring the crowd up to speed on what I call the slow-moving coup.

I can say I've been saying that before the election, but it gets buried in the news.

You know, Trump, he is an evil genius.

His sleazy personal scandals take up all the oxygen of the media, which also sucks usually because they don't, the TV media especially, they don't cover this stuff.

But just this week, I mean, the things that happen,

Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan, these are two Tea Party traitors,

went over to warn Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney General, that they were going to try to impeach him if he didn't start looking further into Hillary's emails, because that is the threat to the Republic.

This grandma in Chappaqua, who's

then

listen to this

11 of his goons of the Republican Party, which is now the Protect Trump Party, really,

they sent a letter demanding prosecution of Comey, McCabe, Loretta Lynch, Sally Yates.

These are career professionals, not politicized people.

Comey was threatened with jail.

With jail by the president.

Comey said, this is not normal.

This is not okay.

I love this.

He said, first of all, he's just making stuff up.

But most importantly, the president of the United States is calling for the imprisonment of a private citizen, as he has done for a whole lot of people who criticize him.

This is not normal or acceptable in this country.

Here's the fundamental challenge.

We cannot allow Donald Trump to become the top banana in a banana republic.

And that's the issue.

That already happened, Governor.

That's right.

She owns the whole dole plantation at this point.

Yeah, I think that, I think we've passed it.

You know, you called it a coup, and, you know, whether you think it's a coup or not, I hearken back to a great Washingtonian, Justice William O.

Douglas, who was a protector of our civil rights.

Everything's from Washington.

Everything's from Washington tonight, yes, for sure.

But what he said, I think, is telling on this, because what he said was, the loss of civil rights, freedom of speech, and democracy does not come.

You don't lose your civil rights like a curtain coming down.

It just doesn't happen all of a sudden.

That's right.

It comes like the darkness, in twilight, gradiations where it becomes darker, and all of a sudden you're in darkness.

And that's why we cannot allow him to become normalized in any way.

And we have to fight him every way we can.

And I'm glad the Democratic Party has sued today to make sure that we get the information that we have to do.

Do you think that's a good thing?

Okay.

Well, let me ask, is that a good thing?

I don't know if people thought this, but the Democratic Party is suing, wait a second, Donald Trump, they're suing Russia, they're suing WikiLeaks,

they're saying, and Manafort, they were saying you were all in it together and it hurt Hillary Clinton's chances and helped Donald Trump.

I've never heard of a suit like that.

The Democratic National Committee let Russian hackers run roughshod on their servers for a year.

It took them months to announce the hack even happened.

And now, almost two years after the hack happened, they're launching a lawsuit.

It is like they exist on a different time-space continuum where Donald Trump hasn't yet been elected president.

I can't wait till like 2040 when they discover Stormy Daniels.

I mean, how do you explain the outrageous delay and the ill timing given the Mueller investigation?

I wish we had the confidence that they were looking forward as serious as they're looking backward.

I mean, we've got a House and a Senate election.

The Democratic Party has hemorrhaged governor's mansions, state lawmaker positions over the last eight to ten years.

They've never found a succinct, compelling economic message.

I would like them to look toward the future and a little bit less toward the past.

We're not going to have...

Neither of my colleagues will be allowed to serve on the jury on this case, I can tell you on that case.

So I think the issue here, it's not a normal lawsuit.

It's not about damages.

There's not enough money in the world to repair the damage that this president has done.

What it is about is having an assurance that the justice

system is going to be a check and balance on Donald Trump.

We don't know where the thing is, Mueller is going.

We don't know what the president's going to do.

We cannot be satisfied that the Republican Party will stand up for the Constitution if he fires Mueller.

We have to have a way to make sure we get to the truth.

This is not about money or damages, it is about getting to the truth.

And I think we ought to go anywhere we got to.

Let's not forget that this is also a week where we found out that if the president is not a Russian agent,

he certainly acts like one.

Because once it, you know,

I remember all the way back to last week, exactly a week ago when I was sitting here right when the missiles were being fired at Syria.

And we were like, oh, this is going to be different.

He's really punishing.

Turned out it was just a one strike thing, just a pinprick.

And then when Nikki Haley said, I'm instituting more sanctions on Russia, Trump nicks that.

It's not a pivot at all.

He's still all, he's obviously being blackmailed by Putin.

It's so obvious.

He just cannot make a move against Russia.

There is no explanation.

It is not as if there's some pro-Russian lobby that's part of the team.

Right.

Right?

Where is this interesting?

Where is this interest coming from?

It's crazy.

Okay.

Michael Cohen, I was mentioning in the model, he's a pretty bad lawyer.

I really think he's not a good lawyer at all.

In fact, he may be the worst lawyer since Ted Bundy represented himself.

And, you know, when lawyers are of that

caliber,

they're the type who always advertise on billboards and bus stops.

And I can see why Michael Cohen only has three clients because

we got some of his billboards and bus stops.

Look at some of these.

Like, need a lawyer?

Me too.

I mean, that's not a good

Michael Cohen, your $10 attorney and and worth it.

Because legal Zoom doesn't keep a baseball bat in the trunk.

Jewish name, Italian attitude, Polish strategy.

Michael Cohen.

Go ahead and sit.

I'm used to dealing with assholes.

Michael Cohen, the guy you want to see about a thing.

www forgetaboutit.com

client confidentiality guaranteed just ask sean hannity

did you slip and fall into a porn star

and michael cohen attorney at law i have experienced federal agents in my office right now.

All right, he's embarking on a 40-city speaking talk for his new book, 12 Rules for Life and Antidote to Chaos.

Here's a clip from his Channel 4 interview that went viral earlier this year.

Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a trans person's right not to be offended?

Because in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.

I mean, look at the conversation we're having right now.

You know like you're certainly willing to risk offending me in the pursuit of truth.

Why should you have the right to do that?

It's been rather uncomfortable.

Please welcome Jordan Peterson,

Professor.

Hey,

great pleasure to meet you.

I'm a big fan,

as you might have guessed, and I love what you just said that in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.

And that went viral that made you very famous why do you think that sparked such a reaction

well because I think that what I was saying was self-evidently true but not expressed very well very often I mean look most of the time when you're discussing something that needs to be discussed everybody's actually rather upset about it you know if you're actually talking about something important right because why talk otherwise unless you're just shooting the breeze but if there's an issue at hand that has to be discussed then people are already upset and they have different viewpoints.

And

the offensiveness in some sense is built into that.

And you know that, because if you have a family, if you have a wife, if you have an intimate relationship, and you're discussing something that's difficult, the probability that you're not going to offend each other if you're actually having the conversation is zero.

And so you don't have to think unless you have a problem.

And if you have a problem, then when you think, you're going to offend people.

And so, what are we not going to think?

That seems like a bad idea.

Yeah.

You're obviously not an American.

We love to not think.

But, you know, I used to do a show called Politically Incorrect back in the 90s.

And, oh, thank you.

Oh, the 90s.

We remember them.

And so I was always asked, what is your definition of political correctness?

And I had to come up with one.

I said, it's the elevation of sensitivity over truth, which seems like what it still is, except it's worse than ever.

It's more like the elevation of moral posturing about sensitivity over truth.

It's even worse.

Yeah.

So where did it come from?

Why did we get, how did we get to this place where we're so fragile, the safe space people?

Oh, I think that you can pretty much blame it on the universities.

I think that they've pursued, especially in the humanities and in the social sciences as well, they've pursued a policy of a radical leftist policy with an overlay of postmodernism, which is kind of a literary criticism approach, that's produced all of this.

As far as I can tell, I think you can lay a lot of it at the feet of faculties like the faculties of education.

There was an article in the Chronicle of Higher Education this week

that just devastated the faculties of education, taking them to task for low academic standards and for possession by ideology and

for basically indoctrinating people in a cult-like manner and playing identity politics and group identity.

And no free speech.

There was an incident in Fresno State.

I don't know if you saw this, but Barbara Bush died.

Okay, some professor there tweeted something nasty.

I wouldn't have tweeted it.

She called Barbara Bush a racist and said she raised war criminals.

Okay, you know, it's.

Yeah, well, the timing.

This crowd likes it, but I mean,

it's nasty.

And they're considering suspending her.

And here's what the president of the university said.

He said, this was beyond free speech.

This was disrespectful.

Have we lost the thread back to knowing what free speech is?

Yes, it can be disrespectful.

That is covered under free speech.

President of Fresno, you idiot.

Jesus Christ.

Well, and you see this too.

I think where it's manifesting itself in a particularly appalling manner is in the increasing

unwillingness of comedians, for example, to go on university campuses to be funny.

And when comedians are.

I'm fun of them.

Yeah, well, exactly, exactly.

Yeah, fuck them.

I mean, I'm not going to.

I call these people emotional hemophiliacs.

You know, it's like the least little thing will make them start to bleed.

But what it makes me, because

their answer is not to go into a room full of sharp objects.

The answer is to make all of us wear bubble wrap.

So nothing we ever do makes them have a moment of discomfort.

They're also very narcissistic.

Well, there's also this idea that's promoted by the people who are protecting those who are easily offended that the way to make people secure is to protect them from things that they don't want to encounter.

And there isn't a clinician, like I'm a trained clinical psychologist, and there isn't a clinician in the country who's worth worth his or her salt that would ever make that claim because you don't make people first of all it's hard to make people safe because life is seriously not safe yes and the way that you make the way that you make people resilient is by exposing them to things that they're afraid of and that make them uncomfortable voluntarily but you use exposure right and it's a

And so like if you if you over-coddle people, if you protect them from everything that's sharp, you make them dull and stupid

and narcissistic, and it's a really bad idea.

So you do know America.

One thing I love, I mean, your book is fantastic, and one of the rules that I really love is you say, don't let your kids do anything that would make you not like them.

That's what I've been thinking for years when I call them the fuck you, mom generation.

When I see kids, never in life because I never go near a child,

but like on TV and movies, I see kids like saying, fuck you, mom.

And I'm like, if somebody who wasn't your child did that, you'd be immensely offended.

Whereas the parents, just take it.

What's up with that?

Well, people don't like to admit that they can dislike their children or children in general.

Right.

Right.

No,

I know what you mean.

They can.

No, they totally can.

One of the things you see very commonly as a clinical psychologist is

family members who hate each other and who it's like they have their hands around each other's necks for 20 years and are squeezing very slowly, trying to strangle each other.

And you see parents who clearly detest their children and have ever since they were born.

And part of that, I know it's a terrible way of looking at things, but it's true.

It's so true.

And one of the things, what no, parents confide that in me because I don't have kids.

Yeah, well,

that makes it safe.

They do.

No, but they say things like, yeah, I love my kids, but if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't.

Yeah, well, like, well, don't tell the kid that.

Well, so that, but that's so bad.

It is so bad.

It's so bad, because the thing is about little kids is that little kids have a wonderful element to them.

And if they, and most people spontaneously like little kids, they'll give them a chance.

And if you have little kids, one of the things that's so wonderful about it is that when you bring them out into the world, even people who aren't in good shape, rough people, and who maybe don't have much patience for humanity, it brings out the best in them, you know?

And so people are willing to give your kids a chance.

But then if they misbehave, especially if they're rude and they don't have any respect and they're whiny and they don't know how to listen, then people don't like your kids and you don't.

And then

your kids go out into a world where no one likes them.

And that's what you...

Well, that's what you do to your kids if you don't like them.

Yes, you send them out into that world.

Right, but how did

parents get so pussywhipped

by their own children?

I mean, that's really what it is.

I mean it's it's like they act the way a guy acts when he's super sprung on some chick and just lets her walk all over him and whatever she does he puts up with.

I don't get how we got to that point.

Well I think parents are afraid of exercising authority because they tend to think that authority will crush the creative spirit of their child.

Oh fuck.

Well that is.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

No, I

see everything this man says I think is common sense.

You guys should have a baby together.

Yeah, we should have a baby together.

It's like we get crucified for what we say.

I don't think anything we say is controversial at all.

Do you think he's controversial?

I just had a kid.

It's hard figuring it out.

And by the way, everyone is neurotic.

That's why we have a hard time raising children the right way because we live in the most neurotic, insane, overconnected, crazy world.

Donald Trump is our president.

Right.

How do we expect him to raise normal children?

It's a crazy time though.

You haven't talked about social media.

Social media is a huge, huge part of this.

I mean it abets the narcissism.

It has everyone preening for everybody else.

It has people going into their little tribal places and sorting themselves that way.

That's a huge problem here too, I think.

Well, there's other...

Yes.

There's other factors that are contributing to overprotection, I think, that can't be laid directly at parents' feet.

I mean, we have fewer children, so they're more special.

They're not raised so much by their siblings, right?

So, and people have them when they're older, and so

they're much more careful with their kids in some sense.

And that's a bad thing in some ways, because you want your children to be free enough to go out in the world and learn some resiliency.

You don't want to be hovering over them all the time.

And if you're a young parent and you have many kids, then you kind of get overnumbered.

outnumbered by your kids and they're going to go and do their thing.

And so some of it's demographic and some of it's attitudinal.

And, you know, maybe that's a consequence of the pill and the fact that we've restricted.

Yeah, let's get rid of that.

No, no, I didn't say we should get rid of it.

But it's really thrown a, like the fact that

we have effective birth control means that families are much smaller.

It means that children are much more precious.

And that means that they tend to be overprotected.

It just has nothing to do with abolishing the pill.

It's a way of analyzing the complex causes of the business.

As a father of three sons and three grandsons, I just want to say, and where are they in?

They're in Washington.

Is that a good place to live?

Yeah, one was conceived in Hawaii, but that's okay.

That's another story.

The kids are not the problem here.

The kids get climate change.

The kids get gay marriage.

The kids get legalization of marijuana.

The kids get saying we should step on Donald Trump every chance we get.

The kids are not.

The kids are just fine.

They're the smartest generation.

You know what the kids also get?

That you can call social services if if your parent does anything you don't like?

Kids don't have that.

That's one reason parents are not rough with their kids.

I don't mean physically rough.

I mean in any way rough, because kids do know that they can do that.

The only problem with kids

is they don't vote.

That's the only problem with kids.

And if you've got a kid out there, tell them to vote next November.

We've got to tell them to vote.

I don't know if the price that we have to pay for children having some insurance against abuse is kids who are overly politically correct, I'll take the the trade-off.

I don't really think that that's kind of a lousy applause for that, Alex.

I don't know if that was all that popular.

I don't think it protects children from abuse at all, that sort of thing, because social services and the government provision of protection for children is not a very effective way of preventing children or preventing abuse of children.

What's effective, and this is something you'll want to know as a parent, is that you have every right to intervene in your child's life when they're misbehaving in a way that actually impinges on you in a serious manner.

Because you're going to want to like your kid.

And that means you have to come to

a real negotiation with them about what their space is and what your space is.

And you have to be able to take the right to yourself to put those limitations on them.

And you're going to find that that's a very difficult right to take because you're going to be doubtful about your authority.

And that'll allow your child to run roughshod over you and you won't like them as a consequence.

You know me so well for someone who's never actually met me.

But thank you.

See, everywhere you go, you cause trouble, Professor.

Yeah, yeah, well.

Okay, let's talk about something you want to talk about.

Let's talk about the census, because that's a big issue, and I know it's something that you've delved into quite a bit, and they're changing it this year.

They're messing with it.

The question's going to be on the 2020 census: how many members of your household are not U.S.

citizens, right?

Which was not there under Obama.

We haven't asked the citizenship question on the census since 1950.

Since 1950, right.

And the census is only to get a number.

It's not about citizenship, right?

I mean,

and we are afraid that this is going to greatly undercount the Latino population.

Let us be very clear.

The addition of a citizenship question is to keep immigrants and their families in the shadows.

It is to disenfranchise cities with large immigrant and minority populations.

And it is to skew congressional redistricting that happens in 2020 to disenfranchise largely Democratic states and cities that have large minority and immigrant populations.

That is why there are to saves in court.

Is it going to happen?

I know that.

I don't know.

That's a real question.

There are multiple lawsuits.

14 states, including California, are suing the government, is that right?

To make sure it doesn't happen, but we don't know.

The process by which this question has been added is so transparently nefarious, it's almost laughable, except that it's incredibly serious.

We have a good chance of winning in court.

And the reason is is Donald Trump is one of the least effective violators of law in American history.

And

every single time we have sued him, almost every single time, we have won.

And the reason is he's so transparent.

You know, he's just absolutely transparent.

This is clear what's going on.

And any judge who's been on the bench for four hours knows what he's doing, which is to try to suppress the vote.

And it is akin to the venal efforts of the Republican Party to suppress the vote in the United States.

And this is consistent with that effort.

Stop people from being counted, stop them from voting, and that's why I'm glad that we, I know I can't brag about Washington ever on this show,

but I am proud that last month we adopted the most vigorous automatic voter registration, same-day registration, and the ability to have the voter rights.

We got the best voting system in the United States.

I got to move there.

I tell you, I don't know what I am doing.

Come on off.

Enough.

Enough with the sunshine and the orange trees.

Speaking of transparent, one more thing from this week.

When we found out that Sean Hannity was client number three of Michael Cohen.

We also found out, I mean, obviously he carries Trump's water every day on the air.

I mean, that I got.

We didn't know that he was talking to Trump every day.

I mean, this is such a violation of what the fourth estate is supposed to be.

It's not supposed to be a branch of the first estate.

Can you imagine if they found out that Obama was talking to Rachel Maddow

every day and they were like switching, I mean sharing information and you say this and then I'll say this and then we'll do that and come to dinner tonight.

I feel like that didn't get enough coverage.

He can no longer pretend to be a journalist.

But it's funny because in the past you didn't hear him constantly saying, I'm not a journalist, I'm an entertainer.

As soon as this came out, his song changed.

He said, well, I'm just an entertainer, so I'm not bound by any sorts of journalistic ethics.

But it is very scary as an American to think that on major issues, the president's first call is to Sean Hannity.

He's not going to counsel moderation or anything sensible because he wants this to be entertainment as much as Trump wants to produce entertainment.

The more melodrama, the more Sean Hannity has to cover and talk about.

So, this is a very toxic relationship.

Let us also say that Fox News is on the hook here, right?

Sean Hannity can do the explaining or the obfuscation, whatever he wants to do, but the reality is Fox News presents itself as a news.

Fox presents itself as a news network.

The idea that

there is that whole big chunk of Fox and Friends.

Well, it's a discussion public affairs program.

The fact that they have not answered for this is shocking.

His ratings are too high.

And his ratings, it's

not just Donald Trump.

And they're not going down.

His ratings are now 40.

He's now at 40, which we haven't seen in a while.

Evangelicals, highest ever at 75.

There's your ad for religion.

Okay, time for new rules everybody

Okay

Neural the people who want to tell me about Coachella have to get together with the people who want to tell me about Burning Man and then not tell me about either

And that goes for you too, CrossFit

Neural never hire a lawyer who looks like a dog you caught eating a tampon out of the trash.

Bad attorney!

Don't give me that I thought it was a mouse look.

Bad, bad.

Neural, now that Chipotle has announced that its new drive-through windows will serve breakfast, America's car washes must announce an early bird special for when you shit in your car.

Chipotle, it turns your commute into a carnival cruise.

New rules, someone has to ask consumers of Heinz's new mayo chip, a mixture of mayonnaise and ketchup.

You know, you could just make that right at home.

But if you insist on going to the store and paying extra for it, while you're there, don't forget to pick up my new product, Bill Mars Pepper.

New rule, boxer lightning Rod Salka, who took to the ring in red, white, and blue trunks that said America first and had a design depicting Trump's border wall, has to tell us which was more embarrassing, getting the shit beaten out of him by a Mexican.

Or waking up in the hospital and realizing he has no health care.

And finally, new rule, Democrats must get a good wedge issue to make sure they win the next election.

And I have one in mind.

Hint, today is 420.

The holiday where stoners everywhere smoke weed to celebrate smoking weed every other day of their lives.

And to celebrate it this year, John Boehner, yes, that John Boehner.

The weepy chain-smoking Chamber of Commerce golf course drunk who used

to be Republican Speaker of the House and who used to say he was unalterably opposed to decriminalizing pot, just announced he's evolved.

And he accepted a position on the board of directors of Acreage Holdings, one of the largest legal pot growers in the country.

Wow, you think Boehner cried a lot before?

Wait till he gets stoned and sees a sunset.

Hey Democrats, you're going to lose this issue if you're not careful because now Republicans smell the money

and Democrats need this issue.

You know, there's a lot of talk now about how the midterm elections are going to be a blue wave.

Blue wave sounds like an off-brand aftershave at the dollar store.

Blue wave from the makers of Hillary Clinton's inevitable.

No, this election is hardly in the bag, especially considering that when it comes to showing up for the midterms, Democrats are electorally challenged.

What we need is a sweetener to rouse the liberal base, and I think POT would do the trick.

Now, I could go on and on about the benefits of weed, increased focus, less anxiety, better sleep.

It makes food taste better, music sound better,

bad dates more tolerable.

Good for migraines, glaucoma, and the nausea associated with reading Trump's tweets.

An eating pot increases levels of the chemicals responsible for happiness.

Oh, you're doing a heck of a job, Brownie.

Yes, we love weed the way Republicans love their guns.

Every election Republicans run on, they're coming for your guns.

We need to talk about weed that way and turn potheads into single-issue voters too.

It should not be that hard because nobody's really coming for your guns.

But Jeff Sessions really does want to take away your pot, for which there is no protection like the Second Amendment.

You know, we can bring those jobs back from China, but they're still going to suck.

You're in an Amazon warehouse for eight hours with no one to talk to but the robots.

You're going to want that vape pen.

Democratic politicians can talk all they want about making college more affordable, but it's weed that makes it bearable.

This should be an especially potent issue for those younger voters, the ones we are so desperate to get to the polls in November.

Now, those kids say they're coming out for gun control.

Maybe.

But being against guns is not a lifestyle.

Guns is a lifestyle.

Weed is a lifestyle.

It's not just something you have an opinion on.

It's in your home.

It's a passion.

You like touching it.

Guns and pot, they have magazines about it, and so do we.

They have gun shops.

We have dispensaries.

They know the difference between automatic and semi-automatic.

We know the difference between Indica and Sativa.

They rally around musicians that support their cause even if they're terrible, and so do we.

They have fancy ways to hide their stash, so do we.

They like to have a zillion versions of the same product, so do we?

Come on, there are gas mask bongs, lava lamp bongs, penis bongs,

and the menorah bong for those who celebrate Kronika.

Look, I tend to think guys who need a 50-caliber rifle so they can shoot through Iron Man

are crazy.

But then I remember I once paid three grand for a device called the mothership.

Oh, yeah.

It heated hash oil to exactly 462 degrees and had a spherical donut chamber with detachable bubbler and dual wax ceramic coil

and a 72 hole percolator with matching shower hat ash catcher.

Did it make getting high any better than using an apple?

No.

So why did I drop three grand on it?

Because I was high when I ordered it.

Happy 420, everybody.

All right, that's our celebrity at the Ryman in Nashville, June 24th.

I want to thank Frank Bernie, Alex Wagner, Jay Inchley, Jordan Peterson, and Michael Avenetti.

Join us down for overtime on YouTube.

Thank you.

All new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10, or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand.

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