Overtime - Episode #455: Family Feuds, Mental Illness, and Learning from our Mistakes

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Speaker 4 Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series, real time with Bill Moore.

Speaker 5 Here we are in overtime.

Speaker 6 Let's see.

Speaker 5 Must have done good tonight. Louie, do you have any suggestions for keeping a family together in this era of hyper-partisan politics? Well, yeah, I mean, you kind of bridge the divide.

Speaker 5 You're a Midwestern boy, but you're a city slicker now.

Speaker 7 I think, you know, like I visit home. I go back to Minnesota eight to ten times a year, which is a lot.
I work a lot there, but I always see my brothers and sisters all the time. And

Speaker 7 even the times when you don't have time, you got to check in. And I think it's about checking in and keeping people part of your life.

Speaker 6 Keep talking, right? I mean, not keep people off.

Speaker 7 Keep talking. And even if you're mad at them or they're mad at you, don't let them run away from you and don't let them hide.

Speaker 9 Okay. Geraldo, after all the work

Speaker 5 you did exposing mental institutions like Willebrook, what do you really think about Trump declaring we need to reopen these institutions?

Speaker 10 Well, I think that there, as Governor Spitzer knows,

Speaker 10 there's a confusion in the public mind between people who are mentally ill, which includes schizophrenia, post-traumatic stress,

Speaker 10 you know,

Speaker 10 bipolar. That's different from my

Speaker 10 area, which is the developmentally disabled, mentally, they used to call them mentally retarded,

Speaker 10 Down syndrome, autistic,

Speaker 10 people who were warehoused in institutions, not asylums, but there were warehouses that existed. People forget, over 5,000 people.

Speaker 5 Kennedys put their

Speaker 10 lobotomy and all the rest of it. It was just horrible, horrible treatment of people.

Speaker 10 One has kind of normal IQ and then something off, and those are the people who are like running down the street with guns or things that look like guns.

Speaker 10 And then the developmentally disabled are people whose IQs are below normal, who you want to have as most humane living environment as possible. They're gentle people, they are

Speaker 10 obviously very needy, but they can be, you know,

Speaker 10 get vocational training, they can evolve, they can live longer rather than being in institutions where 60 of them were jammed in a room, naked, smeared with their own feces, unattended, one attendant for 60 people.

Speaker 5 So, I will ask one more Trump thing then. When he did that thing, it was terrible.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 12 It was terrible. Okay.

Speaker 13 Couldn't help it.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I couldn't help it.

Speaker 12 Max,

Speaker 5 do you believe that the U.S. has learned from our experience in Vietnam?

Speaker 6 Terrific book, by the way. Great book, great writer.
I recommend it highly.

Speaker 5 Do you believe that the U.S. has learned from our experience in Vietnam or that we are continuing to make many of the same mistakes?

Speaker 5 Obviously, not in Vietnam, but I assume this person means somewhere else. else.

Speaker 8 Unfortunately, I think we continue to make a lot of the same mistakes, and this is a frustration for me as a historian.

Speaker 8 You can study the history, you can draw the lessons, but getting people to actually internalize them and act upon them is something else.

Speaker 8 And for example, today across the Middle East, when we're fighting the war on terrorism, I think there's a tendency to think, especially on the part of the president, that American bombs and bullets will win the day.

Speaker 8 And there was a similar tendency in Vietnam to think we could bomb the Viet Cong into submission. General William Westmoreland thought we could kill the Viet Cong faster than they could be replaced.

Speaker 8 And the guy that I wrote about, Edward Lansdale, said, No, this is never going to work out.

Speaker 8 The only way to win is to have a viable in-state, a government in South Vietnam that the people can actually support.

Speaker 8 And today, we're not really focused on creating governments that people can support across the Middle East.

Speaker 8 We're just focused on bombing and then leaving, and that's not going to be a successful long-term strategy.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I know he talks about ISIS being annihilated, but they may be annihilated in Syria, but they're just going to take their talents to

Speaker 12 South Beach. Well,

Speaker 13 that's what I was

Speaker 13 saying. But I mean, in their case, Libya or Somalia.

Speaker 12 No, that's what I was invoking. Remember?

Speaker 12 I couldn't.

Speaker 11 Remember what happened with Al-Qaeda and Iraq?

Speaker 8 Al-Qaeda and Iraq, which was the predecessor of ISIS, was annihilated by 2011. Then President Obama pulled our troops out of Iraq, a decision I opposed.

Speaker 8 As a result of that, he created breathing space for ISIS to arise and to take this vast caliphate across Syria and Iraq.

Speaker 8 And my concern is that Trump today is going to repeat that very same mistake that he and other Republicans were criticizing not so long ago.

Speaker 7 Isn't it also true, if I might say, that we always look at our model as the model for other countries and we have no idea who all these tribal things and all the history, and I think we always try to get these people to do things our way, and they don't have what we have to do that.

Speaker 5 They define freedom differently. I mean, that was George Bush's big mistake.

Speaker 6 He was like, everybody loves freedom.

Speaker 10 We also forget that it's all about religion in the Middle East. We don't understand that the Shiites are different than the Sunnis.

Speaker 10 We changed the order and the Iraq invasion of 03,

Speaker 10 unsettled the society that had settled. However, it may be unfair it could be perceived from people in a democratic society, but religion rules in the Middle East.

Speaker 10 It's been forever, millennium, it'll be forever.

Speaker 5 And history that happened 600 years ago to them is like yesterday. Yeah.
That's not just the Middle East. That's a lot of countries now.
Yugoslavia, when that place fell apart.

Speaker 8 Yeah, you got got to have on-the-ground understanding, like the guy that I wrote about, Ed Lansdale, who spent years in the Philippines and Vietnam and really came to understand the society.

Speaker 8 And he was trying to talk truth to power to generals who thought they could just bomb their way to victory.

Speaker 8 But today, I see, unfortunately, a similar mindset where, again, there's not in the White House, you don't see a lot of people who are very worried about the dynamics of tribal society in Iraq or Syria.

Speaker 8 Trump just wants to throw, you know,

Speaker 8 bomb them and then think that we're going to win that way.

Speaker 5 We have the phrase, wag the dog. Other presidents have been accused of starting wars to distract.
Do you think Trump is above that?

Speaker 12 No.

Speaker 12 I think the thing is...

Speaker 8 Well, there's almost nothing that Trump is above, I would say.

Speaker 12 The move of the...

Speaker 13 I'll hold him.

Speaker 10 When you say something like that, what you ignore is we get one president at a time.

Speaker 10 We get one president at a time. When he succeeds, the nation succeeds.
When he fails, the nation is failing.

Speaker 11 I would see him succeed.

Speaker 10 When you alienate yourself from the government and say nothing they do is worth a shit, then the country

Speaker 10 is not a good question.

Speaker 14 We're not saying we don't want him to succeed. What we're saying is that his absence of fact-based decision-making, and as Geraldo just pointed out,

Speaker 14 as Bill just pointed out, the decision to move the National Guard to the border, I view as a manifestation of a bad week. He wants to distract.
He does something that Barack Obama did the same thing.

Speaker 14 But not at this moment, not with the money.

Speaker 11 George Bush did the same thing.

Speaker 12 No, no, not in Lash John.

Speaker 12 There are worse actions.

Speaker 14 We all want him to succeed, but this guy won't.

Speaker 12 But by the way.

Speaker 10 When was the last time you said something nice about that?

Speaker 12 Ask me that.

Speaker 10 Okay, when was the last time?

Speaker 5 When he made the, when Kim Jong-un said, let's meet, and Trump said, great, let's meet. And all the liberals said, that's crazy.
And I said, no, you know what?

Speaker 5 These two guys probably are the two craziest people in the world.

Speaker 6 They might understand.

Speaker 13 I also supported...

Speaker 12 I'm not even a Laura Ingram also.

Speaker 5 I also supported moving the capital to Jerusalem.

Speaker 9 And so, believe me, I am perfectly capable of agreeing when he does some.

Speaker 14 Another one that's important, the tariffs. You know what? Democrats should stand up and say, you know what, it's time we stood up against China.

Speaker 14 We should do it as a global coalition, not as one-off deals. Somebody had to stand up.
China was gaming the system.

Speaker 8 Wait a second. I don't think Democrats ought to be supporting Trump's trying to start a trade war with China.

Speaker 11 This is not going to work out.

Speaker 14 We need to stand up to China and trade.

Speaker 11 Yeah, but not time we should not disappoint

Speaker 12 us about I should not diswitch. We need to stand up.

Speaker 14 It's about time somebody sent us.

Speaker 5 All right, Elliot, what do you think of Republicans deregulating the banks and some Democrats deregulating the banks?

Speaker 14 Well, here's the thing I'll say. It's been so many years since we had a financial crisis.
Don't we want one?

Speaker 12 It is the single most

Speaker 14 moronic policy move I've seen since moving the National Guard to the border.

Speaker 13 It is, I mean, this is.

Speaker 14 The fact that 10 years after the crisis, we want to go back and recreate the very predicate to the crisis of 08 just makes no sense. Banks are lending.
They're lending enough. The economy is booming.

Speaker 14 Why go back to minimizing and limiting the amount of capital they need? It's insane.

Speaker 15 Simply insane. But it's also...

Speaker 12 I completely agree with you.

Speaker 15 One of my happiest moments in Washington, D.C., they are few, was when I worked on the Wall Street reform bill, sat there at the bill signing, saw us really try to turn the page from a time when the Wall Street and the banks wrote all of the rules.

Speaker 15 And the fact is, they still are the biggest donor to Democrats and Republicans in the financial sector.

Speaker 15 And seeing that list of Democrats that Elizabeth Warren had the guts to call out, that list of Democrats who were just saying, you know what, let's deregulate again.

Speaker 15 Let's go ahead and join with the Republican caucus.

Speaker 15 This is why the Democratic Party is not as popular as it needs to be with working and middle class people of all races.

Speaker 12 All right.

Speaker 9 Thank you very much, everybody.

Speaker 13 Thank you, panel.

Speaker 13 We did it again.

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