Ep. #684: Chris Hayes, Rep. Byron Donalds, Tara Palmeri

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Speaker 4 Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Month series, real-time with Bill Ma. Start the clock.

Speaker 4 How you doing out there?

Speaker 4 Oh, everybody's here. Thank you very much.

Speaker 4 Hey.

Speaker 4 Thank you, people. How you doing?

Speaker 4 I appreciate that.

Speaker 4 Oh, yeah, there's a lot.

Speaker 4 Lots to talk about. Oh, I know.
It's...

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Well, I know why.

Speaker 3 You know why you're excited this week. We're taking over Gaza.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that Gaza.

Speaker 3 Oh, Donald Trump, he's an interesting man. Yeah.

Speaker 3 First, he said we're sending troops in there and moving the people out. Then they walked that back.
Then the next day, they walked it forward.

Speaker 3 Today, he fired a guy for bringing in an idea that was fully baked.

Speaker 3 What we do know is that Trump says Gaza is going to become one of the greatest spectacular developments in the world. And also, Mexico is going to pay for it.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 they will have

Speaker 3 incredible health insurance.

Speaker 3 And they'll be able to say Merry Christmas again. So it's going to be a win-win for everybody.

Speaker 3 He says,

Speaker 3 Gaza is going to, he says, I don't want to be cute. Well, that ship sailed, but

Speaker 3 he says, but

Speaker 3 he thinks it could be the Riviera of the Middle East. Oh, it's going to be amazing.
They're already going to

Speaker 3 have a hard rock hotel and

Speaker 3 a throw rock hotel.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 3 it's picking up a local flavor.

Speaker 2 And he says,

Speaker 3 the thing about sending in the troops, only if necessary, of course. Because if there's one thing that makes a resort relaxing, it's ground troops.
I've always felt.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know what? If I wanted a vacation somewhere that it takes an army to keep the locals from murdering me, I'd go to Acapulco. Really?

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 I tell you who's happy about this plan: Greenland.

Speaker 3 They're like, thank God for attention deficit disorder, boy.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 3 yesterday, Trump went to the national prayer breakfast. You know, they have that every year.
The president goes. Very timely this year to put prayer and breakfast together

Speaker 3 since it takes a miracle to afford eggs.

Speaker 3 yeah, Trump went to the breakfast and he said, you know, he's a very religious man.

Speaker 3 He said, I really believe you can't be happy without religion.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 agree to disagree,

Speaker 3 I think, on that one.

Speaker 3 But the breakfast did have a theme. It was that there's too much anti-Christian bias in this country.

Speaker 3 God damn it, a Christian cannot walk down the street these days without some Roman nailing him to the cross.

Speaker 3 You Nazarenes know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 3 how many times do I have to tell you right-wingers, the liberals don't hate religion? They're not un-Christian. Chris Hayes

Speaker 3 doesn't hate Christianity.

Speaker 2 I hate Christianity.

Speaker 3 It's me. It's always just me.

Speaker 3 I'm the one.

Speaker 3 Stop giving credit credit to these other people.

Speaker 3 But it's also Black History Month. The Trump administration put out a proclamation, all months matter.
Interesting.

Speaker 3 So I'm listening to this.

Speaker 3 It's quite an administration. To honor Black History Month, apparently they appointed a new Under Secretary of Public Affairs who once tweeted, this is his quote.
Don't say I said it, it's a quote.

Speaker 3 He said, competent white men must be in charge if we want things to work. And if you don't believe me, look at the Hindenburg.

Speaker 3 And then, of course, Kanye joined the fun

Speaker 3 and tweeted yesterday, I love Hitler and I'm a Nazi.

Speaker 3 Either he's trolling or he's angling for a cabinet appointment. I don't know.

Speaker 3 All right, we got a great show. Byron Donald is brave enough to be here.

Speaker 3 Derek Balami from Mary. And first up, he is the host of MSNBC's Olin with Chris Hayes, author of the number one bestseller, The Siren's Call, How Attention Became the World's Most Endangered Resource.

Speaker 3 Chris Hayes, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 Chris, without a jacket. Good to see you, man.
Look at you. You ready for the fire?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 3 Well, congratulations on your book. Got to number one already.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 5 Wow, wow.

Speaker 3 Where do you get time to write a book with your show and everything? When do you...

Speaker 5 I try to do about, if you break it up and you do about two hours a day when you're writing.

Speaker 2 Woo!

Speaker 5 And, you know.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You're more locked in than me. But okay.
So

Speaker 3 I thought it was a great week to be here discussing a book about attention because back with the Trump administration, we seem to be back in this era where there's like a year of news in a week. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Like

Speaker 3 Monday we were talking about a trade war and it seems like six months ago.

Speaker 3 Gone.

Speaker 3 Is this the subject of your book basically what you're talking about?

Speaker 5 I mean I think there's two factors to it.

Speaker 5 I think there's the way that social media, particularly in the way that these sort of platforms are engineered to distract us, compel our attention, even hardwired into the engineering of the phone buzzing in your pocket, which is triggering some wiring in your head that you have to notice it before you even get to have a say-so, right?

Speaker 3 You leave it on all the time, your phone?

Speaker 5 I don't, but I know a lot of people who do.

Speaker 3 Oh, I know people who sleep with it.

Speaker 5 I mean, and you'll notice this all the time, like it going off in dinners and restaurants on the table.

Speaker 5 So there's this sense in which you've got the sort of universe, the public discourse is happening is engineered to compel your attention almost against your will.

Speaker 5 And then you've got this figure that dominates the news cycle now who does the exact same thing.

Speaker 5 They're both acting in the same way.

Speaker 5 In that moment in the inauguration, when it's Trump up there and it's the CEOs of all of the platforms that are making billions of dollars off the monetization of attention, it's all the people who are extracting attention at scale for power in one single frame.

Speaker 3 But they are doing it with our compliance. You can turn off the phone.

Speaker 5 Yes, and I think what's interesting about the faculty of attention is that we have sort of different parts of it. It's a little like our appetites, right?

Speaker 5 Like we're hardwired for sugar and salt and fat. And if you try to sell food to people at scale across billions of folks, you get Coca-Cola and French fries.

Speaker 5 But we also have some control over what we eat. We have volition.
We have different appetites in different cuisines.

Speaker 5 It's the same thing with attention, where there's part of our wiring that is involuntary and compulsory.

Speaker 5 If a siren comes down the street, if gunshots go off near you, if a waiter drops a glass in a restaurant, you actually don't have control over whether you pay attention.

Speaker 2 There is actually an involuntary control.

Speaker 3 So you don't have to clap.

Speaker 2 I still like that.

Speaker 3 I mean, I still do. That is a dad.

Speaker 2 That's it.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 I don't feel like you should. Okay.

Speaker 5 You could control the clap. But

Speaker 5 that is true, right?

Speaker 5 So this battle between what we can and can't control, this feeling constantly of it being tugged partially against our will, maybe we succumb to it, but we regret it, I think is a kind of...

Speaker 5 sort of ubiquitous feature of the way that we relate to our own minds these days.

Speaker 3 Since you're such an expert on this, and you are now,

Speaker 3 tell me this, because I've asked this question many times and I just don't understand. How come the America tensions ban is either 10 seconds or three hours? Like

Speaker 3 when I got into podcasting, my first year, we did like an hour with people, and the audience, no.

Speaker 2 Yeah. An hour? Longer.
What the fuck? An hour?

Speaker 3 I'm like, but the TikTok is 10 seconds. You can't get past that.

Speaker 3 What is that dissonance? Please explain.

Speaker 5 I love that because I think that dichotomy maps on exactly to what I'm talking about.

Speaker 5 So when you're talking about these competitive attention platforms algorithmically designed to extract attention, what they tend towards is what I call the slot machine model, which is a series of successive interruptions.

Speaker 5 And you can sit at a slot machine, people sit at slot machines for eight hours

Speaker 5 with little seven-second bursts. And that's the thing that's like doing our wiring.
The long stuff

Speaker 5 is part of our volitional attention, right?

Speaker 2 Like, there are people that go to eight-hour operas.

Speaker 5 There are people that listen to four-hour podcasts, all that stuff is still there. But the way that the platforms specifically are engineered is to drive to that lowest common denominator.

Speaker 3 And this is a book.

Speaker 2 Indeed.

Speaker 3 How many people are left, really? I mean, I had a book out last year. I mean,

Speaker 3 mine got to number one, too. I was happy about it.
But when you look at the actual numbers versus the number of people in the country who buy a book, even a popular book, I mean,

Speaker 3 a book to a lot of people, I saw this comic, I can't remember who it was, some comic do a monologue on Saturday Night Live, and he did a whole routine, which the audience all related to, you could tell by their reaction, where he was saying, a book?

Speaker 3 Like, couldn't there be one blank page and give me a break?

Speaker 2 Like, so many

Speaker 3 words on every page?

Speaker 3 I mean. How much longer do books have, really?

Speaker 5 It's a great question. I mean, I do think in the same way there's people who listen to four-hour podcasts, there's

Speaker 5 appetite for books. But I also think there's a real sense in which American public discourse is becoming increasingly post-literate.

Speaker 2 Honestly,

Speaker 5 there is a supremacy of the spoken word and image over the written word.

Speaker 3 Or scrolling, as opposed to.

Speaker 5 Yeah, exactly. But scrolling short video, particularly.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 5 I mean, even the sort of internet boom era I came up in,

Speaker 5 blogs, for instance, was a written universe. Partly that was because the bandwidth wasn't wasn't there for very good video.
People wrote back and forth.

Speaker 5 They got into big fights with each other on message boards. We're moving towards something that feels a lot more post-literate.

Speaker 3 And that's been going on. I mean, I remember 20 years ago doing jokes about the cash register at McDonald's, which just had pictures of the food.

Speaker 3 We just had to, the kid did not have to read the word hamburger ever.

Speaker 3 All right, so while I have you here from MSNBC, let me ask you, because this is a big story this week about the Democratic Party, they had their big convention to choose a new chairman.

Speaker 3 They chose Ken Martin. Yep.
I was not aware of who he was before.

Speaker 3 I did not think it got off to a great start, because I think they need to completely reroute themselves, and I don't think they did it. What do you think?

Speaker 5 I think there's sort of two different imperatives that are in a little bit of tension with each other.

Speaker 5 So one, I think there's an imperative right now for the party to stand up against the most destructive things that Musk and Trump are doing.

Speaker 5 And I think they're doing some genuinely destructive things.

Speaker 5 I mean, there's people walking around the world right now with like devices inside their bodies from clinical trials sponsored by USAID that they can't get out.

Speaker 5 The guards that were guarding ISIS prisoners in Syria were paid on USAID salaries that got cut off.

Speaker 2 There are...

Speaker 5 There's a 25-year-old mucking around the code base of the treasury system. So there's things they have to do to try to oppose.

Speaker 5 But it's also the case that like all of the reflection that happened after losing that election and trying to figure out how do you win back people you lost is was real and true.

Speaker 5 And I guess my feeling is you got to fight A, you got to try different things.

Speaker 5 And you have to be authentic. You can't like reverse engineer any of this off a blueprint.
And I really think this is true about politics.

Speaker 5 Steve Jobs once said, it's not the customer's job to know what they want. Like it's our job.
And you couldn't have reverse engineered Barack Obama off of George W.

Speaker 5 Bush and you couldn't have reverse engineered Donald Trump off of Barack Obama

Speaker 5 What happens in the end of an election is everyone sifts through the data and they come up with their perfect You know their plan based on well this worked and with this group and we got attack here and there and what politics about is a certain point is like innovation and communication You got to come up with new stories I mean this Ken Martin guy, he said something I've heard Democrats say a lot.

Speaker 3 We didn't get our message out. Maybe I'm paraphrasing, but that's And I've said this before to Democrats.
No, you did. That's the problem.

Speaker 3 You did get your message out, and people don't like the message. And I mean, the message they sent here, they began it with a land acknowledgement.
No, I just had a stand-up special.

Speaker 3 If you haven't seen it, you're losing out.

Speaker 3 It's fantastic.

Speaker 3 And I did a whole bit about land acknowledgement, you know,

Speaker 3 either give it back or shut the fuck up. You know, and that's, they, to me, that's significant.
That was a significant... We just don't get it because you're not going to give back the land.

Speaker 5 It is an empty gesture, fundamentally.

Speaker 3 Which is what they're so good at. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I think that people, I don't think there's anyone who hasn't had a moment across the political spectrum of some

Speaker 5 form of progressive communication that's either left them bewildered or a little like, eh, I don't know about that. But I also think at the same time, there is a message of what I would call like

Speaker 5 common sense patriotic pluralism that is a majority message, which is like, if some father and mother have health care for their kid lined up who's trans, just stay the fuck out of their business.

Speaker 2 Like, and like, let them make that decision.

Speaker 5 That's their decision to make.

Speaker 6 And you don't have to make that for your family.

Speaker 5 I'm not going to tell you what to do with your family.

Speaker 3 I mean, but the argument is whether the child should make the decision.

Speaker 5 But the child is never making the decision. The parents are always making the decision.
Parents consent to medical care.

Speaker 3 Well, here in California, you're allowed to hide it from the parents if the kid at the moment. Yes, thank you.
Thank you, one person, you know,

Speaker 3 but I mean... Somebody knows that is the case.

Speaker 5 I think in the vast majority, and we've been hearing from parents right now whose kids' medical care has been interrupted, I think there's a way to talk about.

Speaker 3 Well, of course, they would say it's not medical care.

Speaker 3 They would say it's not a problem. That is what they're saying.
It's disfiguring a child.

Speaker 5 I think they should mind their own business.

Speaker 2 I really do.

Speaker 5 I think they should mind their own business. And I think that's true about a lot of things.

Speaker 5 I think there is this sense in which there was this sort of backlash politics, some of which I understood, some of which people I know felt that way.

Speaker 5 I don't think what people wanted was for the women CIA agents at the CIA to be told that they can't get together once a month to like celebrate former women spies.

Speaker 5 I just don't, I think like fundamental parts of what we call in this country the traditions of pluralism, which is what this country is, and pluralism is another word for diversity.

Speaker 5 If we're not going to use that one, let's use pluralism.

Speaker 5 That fundamentally there's a majority that understands that like we all come from different places, and part of what makes this country work is we acknowledge and we negotiate those differences.

Speaker 5 And that's the thing that I think Democrats can win back a majority at Method.

Speaker 2 I do.

Speaker 3 Well, thank you so much. Great, good luck with good votes.
Thanks, Miller. May it stay at number one a long time.
All right, let's meet our panel.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Chris. Hey,

Speaker 2 hi.

Speaker 3 All right. He is the Republican congressman who represents Florida's 19th district, Byron Donalds.
Byron,

Speaker 3 how brave of you to be here. And she is the senior political correspondent at Puck News and host of the Ringers Somebody's Gotta Win podcast.
Tyra Palmieri, great to see you.

Speaker 3 Byron, as a Trump supporter, I got to say, I admire you for showing up here in California this week.

Speaker 2 We love California.

Speaker 2 Talking about what you're doing, you do out here, yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, yeah, you released all that water.

Speaker 3 That was a huge fuck-up. So, speaking of huge fuck-ups, I said at the beginning of the season, I said, I'm not going to pre-hate anything before he got in office.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 You know. All right.
But now that there's there,

Speaker 3 I got to be honest about what I hate.

Speaker 3 And then we're going to talk about the Democrats, too. And we're going to talk about keeping an open mind about certain things.

Speaker 3 But let me go through the list because it did sort of dominate the week for me.

Speaker 3 And my theme with this is always that this country just never reacts. It only overreacts.
So is the government bloated? Yes. Does it need a trimming? Yes.

Speaker 3 But, you know, if you're 50 pounds overweight, then you don't go on a starvation diet. I mean, Elon Musk's plan seems to be like massive antibiotics.

Speaker 3 Just kill everything and then hope something grows back.

Speaker 3 Chris mentioned USA aid. I mean, we can talk about that, but I didn't think that's good to just completely cut that off.
He started to say why.

Speaker 3 Somebody named Russell Voigt is up for budget director. He is a Christian nationalist, believes in a total ban on abortion, and says we're in a post-constitutional time.

Speaker 3 Well, we're not supposed to be.

Speaker 3 Cash Patel

Speaker 3 is up to head the FBI. He has said he wants to come after people who helped Joe Biden rig the 2020 election.
Joe Biden didn't rig the election.

Speaker 3 Trump lost it. He won't acknowledge it.

Speaker 3 Then there's ground troops in Gaza, trade wars. I could go on, but let's just start with the Justice Department stuff.
Sure. Anything there that you want to say, I may have a point about.

Speaker 2 You have to understand that, yes, parts of the Justice Department were weaponized against Americans. Let's go back to, let's go back to 2020.
You had the riots in the summer of 2020.

Speaker 2 You had what happened on January 6th. Without a doubt, there were different charges levied for the same behavior.

Speaker 2 If that's not a weaponization of the Justice Department based upon politics, I don't know what is. So here's what you do.
You go in and you evaluate everybody.

Speaker 2 at DOJ. And that's what they're in the process of doing.

Speaker 2 And I will also add, it is the duty of the President of the United States, because they are the ones that won the election, to then go through the executive branch and actually make sure that it is behaving in accordance with the policies and the plans that they talked about in the campaign.

Speaker 2 Donald Trump didn't hide the ball on this. He was very clear about what he was going to do.
The American people voted for him, and now he's doing it.

Speaker 3 Well, he's doing it extra-legally, wouldn't you agree? Extra. And when I say extra, I don't mean like, hey, it's extra.

Speaker 3 Am I wrong about that? That it's not, or we're sort of skipping over the three branches of government part?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean

Speaker 6 Donald Trump is definitely testing the limits of the executive branch. He's trying to take your power away, the power of the purse string, the power of oversight.

Speaker 6 And he is trying to see as much as he can get away with. And really the only thing stopping him right now are the courts.

Speaker 6 But I think he sees his DOJ and his, you know, FBI, his Attorney General, as his executioners. And he is going to tell them what to do and they will carry out those tasks.
They've already started.

Speaker 2 Here's where I got to push back. Because as a member of Congress, under the previous administration, we would have inquiries.
We would request information.

Speaker 2 We would want cabinet secretaries and assistant secretaries and deputy secretaries to come before committee. We would send letter after letter after letter and get no response.

Speaker 2 The Biden administration operated literally in the shadows. They would not tell you anything that was going on.
At least Donald Trump puts it out in the litany of orders that come out that day.

Speaker 2 Here's what we're doing today. We're going into the Department of Justice.
We are taking these attorneys and they are under supervisory review or however they choose to phrase it.

Speaker 2 You knew nothing that was going on in Joe Biden's presidency.

Speaker 2 So if democracy truly dies in darkness, I would rather have an executive tell me what they're doing as opposed to hiding it from the American people.

Speaker 3 Well, that's quite a charitable view of it.

Speaker 2 It's not charitable. That's just the truth.

Speaker 3 We're criminals, but we're announcing it.

Speaker 2 I actually are...

Speaker 3 You know, there's always...

Speaker 3 The problem is that, yes, on both sides, there's always some part that justifies the other. When Joe Biden pardoned his son, it was not a good look.

Speaker 3 I mean, somebody had a...

Speaker 3 I think it was Sam Harris that agreed, he said, there's no moral high ground left to stand on. But there is a difference.
Do you believe, as Mr. Voigt said, that we are in a post-constitutional time?

Speaker 3 Because I didn't get that from the Biden administration. They did make mistakes.
Some of what you say is true. But a post-constitutional time.
Is that your view, that we're in that? And should we be?

Speaker 2 If you hold the view that Russ Vogt does, and by the way, he was confirmed as OMB director, he is now the director of OMB for the second time. He was OMB director under President Trump the first time.

Speaker 2 If you believe that it is okay for the executive branch to suppress free speech, if you believe that it is okay for the executive branch to tell soldiers, to tell workers that they have to take a vaccine or they're going to lose their jobs, then yes, you are in a post-constitutional situation because then the executive becomes all-powerful.

Speaker 2 That's what the Joe Biden presidency was. They were suppressing speech.
They were creating their disinformation bureaus. And the only reason those got taken down is because the public reacted.

Speaker 2 One other example.

Speaker 3 I was critical of that. It's a little different than the head of the FBI saying, we're coming after our enemies.

Speaker 3 The Biden administration administration didn't have enemies.

Speaker 2 And I will tell you, this administration doesn't have them either. What they want to see is that.
They just said

Speaker 2 they want to see the law. They want to see the law applied evenly.
And if we're going to be honest, they were not applying the law evenly.

Speaker 3 Well, that's hysterical, but okay.

Speaker 3 It's the truth. No, I know.

Speaker 3 Trump said,

Speaker 3 I want to end the weaponization of the federal government. And by end, he means begin.
All right. so

Speaker 3 let's move on to troops on the ground in the Middle East, which is always a great idea.

Speaker 3 When has that ever not worked?

Speaker 3 Okay, now here's where I'm going to give you a little daylight, because like the idea that Gaza could be something else,

Speaker 3 He said, you know, it's going to be the Riviera. Okay, that's a little ridiculous.
But you know what? This idea that it could be Dubai instead of Haiti, which is really what it is.

Speaker 3 It's just like Haiti, run by a criminal gang, by a terrorist mafia gang. That's why it's a hellhole, not just for the Israelis next door, but for the people who live there who hate Hamas as well.

Speaker 3 And it could be something else. This is something I read in op-eds in the New York Times 10, 15, 20 years ago.
Gaza does not have to be that. It could be something closer to Dubai.

Speaker 3 So the fact that Donald Trump, in his childlike way, throws that idea out there is not the worst thing in the world. Okay, but the idea that, I mean, here, he's so all over the map.

Speaker 3 Here are his statements. He said, it would be my hope that we could do something really nice, really good, where they wouldn't want to return.
Well, if it's nice, why wouldn't they?

Speaker 3 The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip and will do a hell of a job.
We'll own it and be responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous unexploded bombs. What could go wrong?

Speaker 3 Okay, and again, the kernel of an idea here is valid,

Speaker 3 but introducing the notion of American troops, and also, wouldn't this be kind of expensive for you America first people? I mean, if the Democrats suggested that...

Speaker 6 It's like Donald Trump wants to turn Gaza into Atlantic City, but like, let's not forget how he loved Atlantic City.

Speaker 2 I mean, Atlantic City is a lot worse after Donald Trump. bankrupts people

Speaker 2 decline.

Speaker 6 I don't know if I'd leave him to Gaza to deal with Gaza.

Speaker 2 I would rather have him have at least his way or his say in what's going on in the Gaza Strip than the Iranians.

Speaker 3 Well, his say is different than American troops.

Speaker 2 And look, nobody, like, I think even the American troops piece, that has been pulled back. That's not the case.
But you have to have some vision for what that part of the region can be.

Speaker 2 So is it Israel involvement? Yes. Could it be

Speaker 2 Saudi Arabia as well? Could be. It depends on what the other nations in that region want.
But what nobody wants isn't Iran that is dominating that region.

Speaker 3 I agree with

Speaker 3 the notion that it's good to open a window and let in some fresh air because people do get locked into silly ideas that we then take as the group thing.

Speaker 3 For example, Syrian civil war, all those refugees. A million wound up in Germany.
Saudi Arabia took none.

Speaker 3 And we all just pretend this makes sense, that no other Arab countries will take refugees who you say are your brethren and

Speaker 3 they will think better in Sweden and Germany?

Speaker 2 I personally think that's actually the mislogic of a lot of liberal-leaning leaders in Europe and in America, thinking that you can just take refugees from these parts of the world and not think through the detailed steps of what it is for those countries to rebuild.

Speaker 2 And I'm not talking about nation building a la George W. Bush.
I'm not talking about that. But you got to have leadership in that region.
There have to be peace accords in that region.

Speaker 2 And so when President Trump was leaving the first time, that was the premise of the Abraham Accords.

Speaker 2 Have the Arab states with Israel actually work together in peace so you can actually develop a stable political, religious, whatever they choose that to be, and an economic area so people can live in harmony and peace, period.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 3 I got one more. You're not going to be able to fight me on this one.

Speaker 2 We'll see.

Speaker 3 We'll see. We'll see.

Speaker 3 If you do,

Speaker 3 gonna get a bouquet.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 The Trump administration has appointed Darren Beattie, a former speechwriter, to be the top public diplomacy official.

Speaker 3 This is the guy whose tweet was, Competent white men must be in charge if you want things to work.

Speaker 2 I don't agree with that. Oh, good.

Speaker 2 I don't agree with that.

Speaker 3 But he should still get the job?

Speaker 2 It's not my job to make that higher, to be honest with you. It's not my job to make that higher.

Speaker 3 But do you support the idea that he should get this job?

Speaker 2 No. I'm very concerned about that.
Oh, good.

Speaker 3 Okay. Well, maybe.

Speaker 2 But here, again.

Speaker 3 The rest of his quote was, unfortunately, our entire national ideology is predicated on coddling the feelings of women and minorities and demoralizing competent white men.

Speaker 3 Now, this is a huge exaggeration. It is certainly not our entire ideology.
But has there been some of that? Of course. This is what animates your side so much.
I noticed that at the Super Bowl,

Speaker 3 for the first time in, I think, four years now, the Trump administration is making them take away end racism, which they had written in the end zone, right?

Speaker 2 And And when I see why?

Speaker 6 It just seems silly.

Speaker 3 To do it or not to do it.

Speaker 6 Why get rid of it?

Speaker 3 Oh, I could tell you why.

Speaker 6 I know, but it's just like you.

Speaker 3 Because it was stupid to begin with. Yeah, but it's...
Let me ask you, who's it for? And if you're a racist and you see end racism in the end zone, you're going to stop being a racist?

Speaker 6 The sentiment is basically like, don't be an asshole.

Speaker 3 But I think it's an asshole to nag us during a football game about something that doesn't change anything or any.

Speaker 3 If I'm not a racist and I see it it doesn't matter and if I am a racist it's gonna make me more of a racist like I think if you write don't be an asshole in the end zone everybody will agree with that

Speaker 3 the problem is

Speaker 3 we all think the other guy's an asshole

Speaker 3 well there are some people who proudly think they're a racist the guy the Trump kid did you did you see that tweet this week oh yeah he said I'm proudly a racist something like that I was racist before it was cool.

Speaker 3 This is one of the incels, one of the geek squad incels that Musk has going on.

Speaker 3 And then Musk tweeted out, should he stay in his job? And 78% said, yes, he should. Now, again, I don't think all 78% are racist.

Speaker 3 I think some of that, some of them are, and some of them are just like, this is a revolt against cancel culture. This is my point.
There's never just a reaction. It's always an overreaction.

Speaker 3 You went too far with cancel culture bullshit, and this is what you get. But it's time for, I don't know it for a fact, I just know it's true.

Speaker 3 This is

Speaker 3 one of our favorite departments here on the show.

Speaker 3 We do it every time, but we thought it would be a very good time to do it now that there's a new administration. I don't know it for a fact.
I admit that up front.

Speaker 3 These are things I don't know for a fact.

Speaker 3 I just know they're true.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that every time McDonald's brings the McGrib back, they're just pulling it out of a storage closet. I just know it's true.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that Pete Hegseth puts a vodka-soaked tampon up his ass before he goes to work.

Speaker 3 I'm saying I don't know.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that there are people who went to the Grammys and really missed Diddy's freak off after party afterwards.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, there were. I know some of them.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that Chapel Roan has a photo of Pennywise on her makeup mirror.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that Stephen Miller masturbates that video of Selena Gomez crying. I just.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that Bianca Sensori's favorite TV show is Naked and Afraid.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that Elon Musk is planning to grow a mustache just to troll the libs.

Speaker 3 I don't know for a fact that a year ago, Trump thought Pam Bondi was a glue that keeps your dentures in.

Speaker 3 And I don't know for a fact that RFK Jr. did something weird with the body of the dog that Christy Noam shot.

Speaker 2 I just know it's true.

Speaker 2 All right. So

Speaker 3 Byron, you did a great job standing up to my withering questioning about the Republicans. Now let's get to the Democrats.
Okay.

Speaker 3 Now here's the problem for all the people who are upset about what the Republicans are doing. This was in the New York Times, the New York Times of all places this week.

Speaker 3 Democratic parties, American, many Americans say they do not believe the Democratic Party is focused on the issues that matter most to them.

Speaker 3 So if you think all this Trump stuff is going to go away because the other party is going to come in, well, That may not be the case.

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Speaker 2 Rules and restrictions apply.

Speaker 3 Here's what people think is important to the Democrats. Abortion, LGBTQ rights, and climate change.

Speaker 3 And I have to say, I'm one of those people who certainly thinks climate change should be at the top of my list. And this is...

Speaker 3 This is my complaint with the Democrats. I said this at the end of last year after the election.
Like, if you ask voters, like, what's the important issues to you?

Speaker 3 To me, as a voter, my issues were democracy and the environment. Those are my top two.
And now I have no one who's a champion for those issues in the government. And I blame the Democrats for that.

Speaker 3 I blame them because they are not,

Speaker 3 the people do not feel they're representing them and they're losing. Here's what the people say they care about.
The economy, inflation, health care, and immigration.

Speaker 3 So they have this new guy, I mentioned it to Chris, Ken Martin. Are you familiar with him? No.

Speaker 3 And you don't sound like you want to be.

Speaker 6 Yeah, people inside of the party don't really know him either, but I don't think that's the whole point. He's just like a party operator.

Speaker 6 He's been described as a knife fighter, and he's a guy who's got to go to the donors who are pissed off and tapped out after they spent $2 billion and lost and try to get them to give the party money again.

Speaker 6 And I mean, he's already saying that he thinks that the messaging that the party has right now works.

Speaker 6 He's not exactly like a radical game changer, but he's not the guy that Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer or Hakeem Jeffries wanted.

Speaker 6 So the committee members did sort of say no to the party poobahs for the first time, but I don't think you're going to see Ken Martin, noticeably a white man, by the way.

Speaker 6 The party did not choose a woman or a person, a diverse person to lead the party. He's just going to be behind the scenes, like trying to get together.

Speaker 6 He's not the guy who's going to rise up from the ashes and lead the party forward.

Speaker 2 Yeah, good luck to that guy. Yeah, it's all right.
Good luck to him.

Speaker 2 It doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 I think the Democrats are hopeless, that they're always going to be locked into this. I mean, if you watch the award shows, I see that.
But that's Hollywood.

Speaker 2 I mean

Speaker 2 it

Speaker 2 I think for the Democrats it's about just looking at where people are and I think if they're gonna still be locked into

Speaker 2 you know LGBTQ stuff and look just look at USAID funding USAID funding the stuff that's like the super crazy stuff is all left-wing political viewpoints but that's not most of it yeah that's the point I didn't say it was most of it but still but what I'm saying only thing I'm gonna say is when you have that kind of stuff permeating any organization you have to go through and exam examine the entire organization and at least the stuff that's good and get rid of a lot.

Speaker 3 I know, but that's not what they're doing.

Speaker 3 They're just getting rid of everything all at once.

Speaker 3 I agree. It's a $40 billion program.

Speaker 3 The mission creep in government is outrageous. And it does go on way too much.

Speaker 3 I saw the government accounting office, that's not the Trump administration, said in the last 20 years, I think it was something like 2.2.

Speaker 3 It's 3 trillion.

Speaker 3 Well, it was a little less than that, but in trillions of improper payments.

Speaker 3 This is trillions, not billions, trillion. What could we have done with that money? In 2023, it was 236 billion, billion of improper payment.

Speaker 3 So it's not like this does not have to be done, but the way they're doing it, to cut it all off right away, when they're up, I mean, I don't know how much aid we should be giving other countries.

Speaker 3 Maybe other countries could do it for themselves, some of them, if we weren't always there to do it.

Speaker 3 But that can't happen overnight because the people who aren't getting the food or the medicine, they're the ones who are going to suffer. You don't see why people find this incredibly cruel?

Speaker 2 You said earlier that we're treating it as if it's an overweight person, putting them on a crash diet. Oh no.
The federal government is essentially somebody who's 800 pounds.

Speaker 2 And you cannot survive like this. So yes, there are some drastic measures that have to be taken.
And I will add this to you.

Speaker 2 If you think it's bad now, if we get into a real debt crisis, it will be significantly worse for the American people and other people that we might help around the globe.

Speaker 2 The best thing to do right now, get in quick. You're going to have to shut some things down, triage the area, rebuild the stuff that is good, that we all can agree with.

Speaker 2 The other stuff that's hyper-political or makes no sense or fraudulent or extremely wasteful, that stuff's got to go. Okay, but like

Speaker 2 please. And

Speaker 2 the Democrats won't do it. Okay, okay.

Speaker 6 Let's put that 800-pound person on Ozempic and like give it a few months.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Yes.

Speaker 3 Ozempic.

Speaker 2 Ozempic, okay. And by the way.

Speaker 3 Whereas

Speaker 3 you're just taking a knife and cutting off their big fat stomach. You can't do that.
That's not the way to lose weight.

Speaker 6 A plastic surgeon would never do that.

Speaker 2 Never do that. You know what?

Speaker 6 The other thing is that USAID,

Speaker 2 we are in LA.

Speaker 6 But USAID, yes, it is a very popular program to demonize domestically because people of course are going to say like I'm broke, gas is too high, eggs are five bucks, why are people in Sudan getting, you know, rice and beans and being protected?

Speaker 6 Because if we don't do that, then ISIS will take over, Russia, Iran, that's what's really good. But then we're going to have even bigger problems because it is more expensive to go to war.

Speaker 6 And also USAID is one of the best advertisements for the U.S. abroad.
And advertisement works.

Speaker 2 But you still had those

Speaker 2 We were spending that money year over year over year, and we still had those problems. So you cannot just say sending the money out the door is a proper thing, regardless of the efficiency.

Speaker 2 And I think in part to where the Democrats are, is because instead of trying to say, you know what, the American people are right, we got to get inflation under control.

Speaker 2 Let's actually look at what we're spending. They're saying, no, don't touch anything.
Just spend more and leave all the programs alone. That's what they're doing.

Speaker 2 And you're not going to win in the future with that kind of attitude.

Speaker 6 But U.S.

Speaker 6 is 0.7%

Speaker 6 of the budget. It is $40 billion.
We're too

Speaker 2 bad. We're running too bad.

Speaker 6 Go after the military, right?

Speaker 2 You have people

Speaker 2 who must stay with that, too.

Speaker 2 We're just getting straight around here and out.

Speaker 6 Donald Trump does not care about the deficit. He wanted the debt limit to be abolished.
He doesn't care about this.

Speaker 2 This is not what he ran on. That's

Speaker 2 the only thing that's going to be a lot of demand.

Speaker 2 I would say that's actually not true.

Speaker 2 I would say he does in the sense that because if you're going to have sound economics and a growing economy going forward, you cannot have massive debt that continue to expand. That's true.

Speaker 2 Because the bond market will squeeze everything in the middle of the bank.

Speaker 6 Why do we say he wants the debt limit abolished?

Speaker 2 Because the debt limits has become a political tool that each party wields against each other. It doesn't slow the rate of spending.

Speaker 3 He has told us what he thinks about debt, which is he runs it up, and then when it's so big, it's your problem.

Speaker 3 That's what he thinks about debt.

Speaker 2 I'll make cards to take care of it.

Speaker 2 I'll make cards.

Speaker 3 Look,

Speaker 3 there is so much to cut, but there's a way to do it. For example, I read the Justice Department's environmental division, they want to cut.
And there's also the EPA's environmental justice office.

Speaker 3 So the EPA has a justice office, and the Justice Department has an environmental office. How about everybody just do their own job?

Speaker 3 It reminds me of the figure is is we have, yeah, no I'm saying there is all this. We have like four air forces.

Speaker 3 Like we have the Air Force, but the Navy has an Air Force and the Army has an Air Force and everybody has an Air Force. And I bet they're expensive by the Army.

Speaker 3 And the police department here, I think, has an Air Force too.

Speaker 3 It's like, so

Speaker 3 it's not like suddenly...

Speaker 3 But the way you're doing it is a little crazy.

Speaker 3 These teenagers who are rummaging through buildings, I mean, this is really what you was in the plan? There's no better way to do this softer, a little?

Speaker 2 Having been a member of Congress, I'm telling you that that town is

Speaker 2 against stopping anything or cutting any spending. The entire town is focused with just spending more money.

Speaker 2 And so the only way, in my opinion, you can really get into it is you have to walk into buildings and cease operations and see exactly what's going on and let the public know what's going on.

Speaker 2 So that the public is aware of the mismanagement, the improper payment.

Speaker 3 What about the Department of Education? Now, I don't know that much about it, but I've never read good things. Rahm Emmanuel, who I agree with almost everything, here was a quote.

Speaker 3 He said, a third of eighth graders can't read. And now he wants to close the department.
And I thought, that's probably why they can't read.

Speaker 2 Or at least partly. I mean,

Speaker 3 the numbers keep getting worse and worse and worse. And I don't know if the Department of Education is anything but, I mean, it doesn't really, I don't know what it does, except take money.

Speaker 3 It's sort of a middleman. It doesn't like run classrooms or do stuff like that.
I don't think it makes policy.

Speaker 3 So where are you on something like that?

Speaker 2 I think that the Department of Education has to essentially be closed. A lot of the authorities got to get sent back to the states.

Speaker 2 The dollars we appropriate actually need to go directly into the hands of parents so that they can use those resources in their states and in their communities to find the best outcome for their children.

Speaker 2 When the Department of Ed was created in 1977, our reading scores and math scores for kids fourth and eighth grade were higher than they are today. So it's not worked.

Speaker 3 I mean, I read this, I'm standing this from Nellie Bowles' column, but in Michigan, the contract from the Teachers Union says

Speaker 3 you cannot be fired for getting caught drunk as a teacher until you do it for a fifth time.

Speaker 3 What? Yeah, the first four times, you're good.

Speaker 6 They didn't take the Pete Hexeth vow.

Speaker 2 Counseling.

Speaker 6 I will stop drinking when I start the job.

Speaker 2 And also,

Speaker 2 also,

Speaker 3 if you're caught selling drugs twice, that's when we fire you. The first time, you're good.

Speaker 3 I mean, it is insane. Yeah, it is.
So it's not like there isn't insanity that has to be addressed. And it's not like the kids are getting smarter.

Speaker 3 All right, on that happy note, time for new role.

Speaker 3 All right, New Rule, next time Bianca Sensuri is on a red carpet, someone must ask her, who are you not wearing?

Speaker 3 This is the only woman in the world who really means it when she says she has nothing to wear.

Speaker 3 I think it's time to recognize that there is a middle ground between Bianca San Surrey and the Taliban.

Speaker 3 And women around the world wear it every day. It's called Lululemon.

Speaker 3 Numerous, Spirit Airlines must be commended for being the first airline to implement a dress code with real teeth.

Speaker 3 It bans passengers who are barefoot, inadequately inadequately clothed, or have lewd or offensive tattoos. But they have to make a choice.

Speaker 3 They can either really enforce such a dress code, or they can fly to Florida, but they can't do both.

Speaker 3 Sorry.

Speaker 3 Sorry, I'm sorry. But

Speaker 3 seriously,

Speaker 3 have you been to Fort Lauderdale? I mean,

Speaker 3 it would be a lot easier just to make the dress code violators into boarding groups.

Speaker 3 Barefoot and inadequately clothed, group one. Offensive and lewd tattoos, group two.
And group three is illegal immigrants, and the good news is Trump is flying you home for free.

Speaker 3 New world, the women all over social media who are justifying whatever is wrong with their love lives with men's first love theory, which is the theory that men never truly get over their first love, must look around and ask themselves, who is your man with now?

Speaker 3 It's you.

Speaker 3 He's with you. Not the girl from 10th grade with braces.
He married you. He lives with you.

Speaker 3 Is that really not enough? If not, maybe you should take that wand from Men in Black that erases memory and

Speaker 3 use it on his high school sweetheart. Or here's an idea.

Speaker 3 Or here's an idea. If you can't endure the trauma of your man having a pass, cut him loose and have a relationship with the wand.

Speaker 3 New rules, spare me the lame psycho babble. You know what? I don't need you to show up for me or hold space for me or meet me where I am

Speaker 3 unless you're my Uber driver.

Speaker 3 And for the people who say, I don't need you to fix my problem, I just need you to listen, I was barely listening when you said that.

Speaker 3 Mirro you can't call your Valentine's Day complete without a waterproof rechargeable gold yes gold plated vibrator from goop

Speaker 3 it costs $249 and no you can't return it after you use it but

Speaker 3 it's true

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 ask any woman who's ever told you size doesn't matter. Nothing feels like 24 carats.

Speaker 3 It's terrible. It's a terrible show.

Speaker 3 It's a terrible, terrible show.

Speaker 3 All right, finally, new rule: enjoy the Super Bowl this weekend while you can, because it's probably one of the last ones to be shown on broadcast TV, which is a shame because streaming is ruining football.

Speaker 3 And that's Taylor Swift's job.

Speaker 3 Now, what's so bad about streaming football, you ask? Well, okay, for one, I used to be able to switch between two games in just a second, just one second, by hitting previous on the remote.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 3 But on YouTube YouTube TV, I have to go back to the homepage,

Speaker 3 go to sports, go to NFL, then scroll across to find the second game you want to check on.

Speaker 3 Wait for the circly thing to calm down.

Speaker 3 I tell you, it's easier to switch sexes in America than it is to switch between football and games.

Speaker 3 When football first started moving to streaming, I thought, well, okay, at least I'm lucky enough to afford all the channels I'll need. Too bad for you if you're not.
Sucks to be you, get a third job.

Speaker 3 But okay, streaming it is. At least there'll be no commercials.

Speaker 2 No,

Speaker 3 plenty of commercials.

Speaker 3 Except unlike old TV, where

Speaker 3 I may have DVR'd the game to watch later after it's over, and I could zip through the commercials, streaming purposely makes it so you can't do that.

Speaker 3 They don't let you see what you're fast-forwarding through. So there's no way to tell where the commercials end and the action resumes.

Speaker 3 The start of the third quarter, it's harder to find than the G-spot.

Speaker 3 And good luck finding a game a full day after it aired, It's just gone. Like an FBI agent who investigated Trump.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 3 what I have now is the worst of all worlds. I have to watch it when it's on.
I'm paying for it, and I'm still watching commercials, and I can't zip through them.

Speaker 3 Boy, isn't it great that things are better than the old days when we had to sit through commercials and watch shows right when they aired?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so much better.

Speaker 3 And lest you think this is only a boomer bitching? No, I checked Reddit. Kids of all ages hate this shit.

Speaker 3 They hate this shit. And they recognize RI when they see it.
Yes, RI. We all know about AI now, but six years ago here, I did a piece about RI, reverse improvement.

Speaker 3 Defined as when they make an upgrade that nobody wants, needs, or likes, and isn't actually upgrading anything, it's just making it different and often worse.

Speaker 3 Here's how I used to get my car from a parking valet after dinner at a restaurant.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 3 Here's how we do it now. Before you leave the table, because otherwise you'd just be wasting time talking to friends,

Speaker 3 you scan a QR code, download the app, create a username and password, and then send the money electronically to the valet who's 20 feet away.

Speaker 3 So much easier.

Speaker 3 Hey, fuck you, you fucking nerds.

Speaker 3 When I get a notice that my phone needs an update, it's like getting a jury duty summons.

Speaker 3 I just had one in my phone, and now for absolutely no reason or any sense of improvement, the process of seeing all my pictures, going to different albums, adding to albums, all of it, it's all different.

Speaker 3 So I have to relearn it. And now, when I'm in an album, all the photos in that album float by in a slideshow at the top.

Speaker 3 I didn't ask for that. I don't want it, and I don't, and I don't want to have to go on a goddamn expedition to find out how to turn it off.

Speaker 2 I fucking hate you!

Speaker 3 Technology is supposed to make our lives easier. That's the whole point.
Washing machines did more for women's liberation than a thousand lesbian-run bookstores.

Speaker 3 But now Silicon Valley runs the world and their motto is, if it ain't broke, fuck with it.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I get it, you guys. You keep improving things because, well, A, let's be honest, it justifies your job.
And B, it's fun for you.

Speaker 3 I get it. It's what you're good at, tinkering with shit.
Other people like girls.

Speaker 3 We're all different.

Speaker 3 You like overengineering stuff, but don't tell yourselves you're making anyone's life better. No one ever looked at a car and said,

Speaker 3 if only the doors didn't have handles.

Speaker 3 What an improvement now that they pop out now as you approach the car, like your car sees you and gets a boner.

Speaker 3 It's so cool. Yeah, so cool now that when you have an accident, first responders can't get inside the car and you die.

Speaker 3 Hey, maybe they'll invent a tombstone so that when your orphan children approach it, it pops out of the ground.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 you may think reverse improvement isn't really such a big deal, but it is. And here's why.
Because it's the same mentality behind AI taking over our lives now, whether we want it to or not.

Speaker 3 Because our tech overlords do stuff because they can, not because we need it or it's good for us, and they don't care about the consequences.

Speaker 3 Here in the land of the endless update, if you let one of the jillion cameras at the Intuit Dome scan your face, you can buy a hot dog without ever interacting with a human. Progress.

Speaker 3 Is it progress that we're moving ever closer to to where we never engage with other human beings?

Speaker 3 Is it good that CEOs used to brag about how many people they employed, but now they brag about how many they're throwing out of work?

Speaker 3 Mark Zuckerberg says we're approaching the point where a lot of the code in our apps is actually going to be built by AI instead of people. Great, but what happens to coders, Mark?

Speaker 3 Well, he says they're going to be freed up to do kind of crazy things. Yeah, like starve.

Speaker 3 But hey, at least I have a smart planter now that DMs my phone if my begonia is thirsty. Something humans figured out 12,000 years ago.

Speaker 3 All right, thank you very much. You were great.
That's our show. My Clever End and podcast drops every Sunday.
Everywhere you get podcasts.

Speaker 3 And I want to thank Byron Donalds, Barrett Hohami, and Chris Hayes. Now go watch overtime on YouTube.
Thank you, folks.

Speaker 4 Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10. Or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand.
For more information, log on to HBO.com.