"Jake Tapper"

Hello, friends. Jason here.
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That's rosettastone.com slash smartless to start learning. Hey, Will, welcome to the show today.
Thank you so much, man.

Yeah, do you ever want to be a guest on the show yourself?

Oh, man, what a privilege.

Thank you for having me.

What do you want to know?

We don't have room.

We're all booked.

I just was wondering if that was ever a fantasy of yours.

This is a great first question.

It has always been.

That's fine.

Hey, let's start the show.

Welcome to SmartLess.

Oh, I thought I was already on it.

SmartLess. Oh, I thought I was already on it.
Smart. Less.
Smart. Less.
Smart. Less.
I've been listening to a lot of Duran Duran lately. Why, are you dating a 70-year-old? Here we go.
There it is. I have, like, my search is Duran Duran, Life on Mars, David Bowie.
Why? Volcano Choir, Flaming Lips. Oh, Flaming Lips is good.
I'm just saying it's eclectic. But Duran Duran lately has been really getting me there.
Really? Yeah. And where is it? are you going? Are you taking like a step class or something? When I say where it's getting me, it's getting me to, as I explained, it's getting me to like a blazer with the sleeves pushed up.
Yeah. Okay.
And I'm just tapping on my steering wheel as I'm blazing through the hills. A little white powder.
Are you cuffing your pants? And my pants are very baggy. They've got a nice pleat in them.
Do you cuff them at the bottom? And I pop out, but my hair barely moves. I got a nice one lock hanging down, but the mousse keeps it so tight.
Yeah, mousse. Does that one lock go over one eye? What happened to mousse? I used to do so much hairspray in my hair, you couldn't even move it.
I used a L'Oreal spritz. No, you're going to get a box of it now.
Yeah, here it comes. Here it comes.
I don't know. It'll be tough to spray it through the baseball cap that you usually wear.
I know. Look, it's even pretty tough now.
You could be totally bald and just sew in just a rim of hair around the edge of your cap and no one would ever know. You never take off that hat.
That's how I used to my dad used to cut my hair. He literally just put a ball on my head and cut around it your dad not your mom huh my mom always just cut my hair oh yeah yeah hold your jokes hold your jokes yeah i've seen the pictures it's just low level stuff your impression your impression of me is is really insulting i sound like an idiot you haven't seen the the best of it.
I saw a picture of Jason today. Amanda, his wife and I, were texting this morning early.
On a chain. It should be pointed out.
On a chain. But the picture is of Jason in his bedroom looking out the window trying to look at my house from the window.
Will just had to um that uh there's a there's a dirt road about a mile from my uh from my house i can see out my bedroom window and that's that's where he's gonna park it he can now see my house what are you talking about he just he got he's moving and i can actually see his house across like a mountain range from my bedroom window sean in the middle of all this craziness Yeah, you haven't even lived there very long. Well, four years.
But like the crazy thing is in everything that's been going on, that we've had a lot of stuff going on, and we only talk like 12 times a day, the three of us. And I forgot to mention to you, over the last 30 times in the last 48 hours that I'm moving.
Wow, I didn't know that. That's crazy.
But I honestly have always, one of my favorite movies is Rear Window, and I saw it, I don't know, what, 20 years ago or something like that. And I've always thought about, like, what would happen if you actually lived at a place where you could use a telescope to spot it? Like, whenever I'm in New York, I'm amazed that people don't just stare across into other people people's windows and just watch them all day long.
How do you like, Will, you've lived in New York a lot. How are you comfortable living in a house or an apartment without the shades down 100% of the time? Well, where I, where I lived in New York the last 10 years, there was no other building right there.
So I was lucky in that way. But I love that your instinct is like, you're trying to figure out how to hold yourself back from looking into people's photos.
I want to know what power telescope I need to keep an eye on you and gather information. Literally the photo that Amanda took is, Jason doesn't even know, he's staring at the window.
So I've got that to look forward to. Gaging distance.
Well, so it's very early and it's got to be because of our damn surprise guest must have something pressing later on. And that's why we're up early recording this.
Let's get to it. Everybody looks great, by the way, for this morning.
Real puffy in the morning. I'm still wiping that sleep on my ass.
It's not true. All right, gang, today's guest is one of America's great combos.
Okay. He was as much of a print journalist as he is a current on-air one.

He's Ivy League educated,

but is also a down and dirty jock.

What?

He owns three cats, but is highly allergic.

He thinks the world is flat,

but has an impressive collection of globes.

He grew up around Detroit's auto industry,

but rides a bike exclusively.

He despises jazz, but was named after the world's famous jazz drummer. He claims to be the writer of a new book about the odds of meeting your soulmate at a disco called Devil May Dance.
And he's the current host of CNN's State of the Union America. This is Jake Tapper.
Jake Tapper. Jake, is all that true? Very little.
Very little of what you said is true. Very little of that's true? I do have a book called Devil May Dance, but it's not about meeting your soulmate at a disco.
Is it not? Let's read the first chapter. Let's read the first chapter.
Actually, it might be up your alley. It's about Hollywood and the Rat Pack in 1962.
Oh, I would like that. Oh, that's Jason Zara.
Can we have a free option on it right now? Did you say free? We're just going to shop it around. You can have episode one free as long as there's a 10-episode commitment.
And it's through your Netflix deal. Wow, look at this guy.
Is it fiction or nonfiction? It's fiction. It's fiction.
Jake, have you done the, did you do the audio record for the book on tape? The first one in the series, I did the audio. And then the second one, they hired a professional.
Professional. You got fired from your own book read.
Wow, that's tough. I did.
Well, you know, the thing is also the first one has a lot of characters from history. The first one takes place in 1954, has a lot of characters from history.
And I did attempt to do the voices. Oh, you did? I did.
I don't know if they... Maybe they didn't like that.
Give us a taste. Let's hear it.
Let's hear it. Well, there's Robert Kennedy, who's really...
He's got a higher voice, and then there's John F. Kennedy, which is a deeper kind of, slightly more refined.
Oh, that's pretty good. Not terrible.
Not... I'm no Will Arnett,, I didn't think it was horrible.
No, that is very good. So are you fascinated with that, that era? I mean, what, why did you? The whole, yeah, the fifties and the, and the sixties up until the free love generation starts.
Yeah. Because it's this really, it looks so romantic and it is completely menacing and awful.
But it looks fashionable and lovely

with the martinis and the bourbon and the soap smoking and everyone looks stylish. And it was like the birth of what we do now, basically.
It feels like that. Is there a current equivalent to that, do you think? Like what area, it doesn't even, what industry? Like where are the cool sort of martini swelling, maybe associated with organized crime group of fancy pantses?

Biomedicine. It's all biomedicine.

Are they having the swanky parties in the pharmaceutical world?

The menace is all reported on now, whereas back then it was like, oh, isn't that funny Sinatra's hanging out with a mobster? Right, and you can't really prove it. Nowadays, you can get pretty close to it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Now, where do you find time to sit and write a novel when you are having to stay up to date with everything around the planet? And that's literal. Yeah, that's true.
That's an accurate statement by you. Do you have a staff of thousands of people that just tell you what to say every day and you're like a robot and you know nothing about world politics? And there's nothing in between these two options? Yeah, you're just a dumb novelist and they put this copy in front of you.
I'm just one of the two. I do have an amazing staff for my show, my daily show on CNN and my Sunday show.
They're amazing staff, but no, I'm not just reading what they put in front of me. That's not accurate.
Yeah. Because like when I was a kid, I ran into my algebra teacher at the Kmart and I was like, oh my God, that's, I just picture you inside your TV, never doing anything else other than journalism.
Yeah. I'll tell you something.
Writing the book was a great escape from the real world. The fiction, diving into fiction and writing about the Rat Pack and Sinatra and the Kennedys was a big relief and a big escape from covering the world as it was while I was writing it.
But I'm literally curious, I'm curious about where you'd literally find the time. My rule is if you're writing, if you have a writing project, if you write at least 15 minutes a day, then everybody can find 15 minutes a day.
But you don't need an hour to get into that 15 minutes of space. Like you can change gears that quickly.
But also the 15 minutes needs to actually be writing, not just thinking. You can't be goofing around.
Jason needs a couple hours in the trailer before he starts getting into Marty, you know, when he gets on the Ozark. He needs two hours in the trailer, an hour to yell at the assistant, and then an hour to put on his hair, and then he's Marty.
An hour to put on his hair. Yeah.
Well, no, I got one with a zipper now so i got cut in half your that's your sport piece jake let me ask you this i've always wondered so you do your show every day what is that because as jason said you have to be up on everything so you're constantly downloading information you're constantly getting stuff in real time i imagine quicker than we are because you're you're right in the at the at the center, you know, the nerve center of news worldwide. So what does your day look like? Like before we see you on air, how much before that are you in the office? Are you engaged the moment you wake up? Is it a 24 seven engagement in what you do? It feels like it must be.
Yes. There's a 24 seven engagement about stories and what's going on and what we're planning for.
Like, for instance, I was just, I just got an email from my executive producer about stories that we have in the pipeline, stories that I'm assigning. He wanted to be kept more in the loop, which is understandable.
Because, you know, I'm just like sending notes to people like, this is a good story. You should do it.
And then they come back to my executive producer. Here's the story.
And he's like, what is this? What do you, what do you, I don't understand what this is. And then, and do you, are you obligated since you're, you're one of the main anchors at one of the main news sources around the world? The main anchor at the, the main anchor of the world.
Great adjustment. Great adjustment.
Yeah. Better, better said.
The world's anchor. Are you obligated to go to a committee, for lack of a better word, to decide what leads and what doesn't? Because that can affect the national discussion, which could affect the priorities of policy because it's in the zeitgeist more like.
Do you feel a responsibility to decide what leads and what is at the end of the show, assigning importance to certain issues? There's a morning call with my executive producer where we talk about what we think will lead. Now, obviously at 8.30 in the morning, what is going to lead at four o'clock and five o'clock for our two hours might change.
But here's what we're thinking of today based on the schedule of the day and based on what's happening.

Then there's a morning editorial call where the executives share their views of what are the most important stories and what are important elements of those stories. And then it's really up to us, me and my team.
Yeah. What is that process? I would be burdened by the responsibility of directly sort of implying what is more important than another thing.
And how do you gauge that? How do you, how do you just, that is the big challenge of being an anchor and running a show is like, what do you lead with? What do you, it's really more, what do you leave out? Because as long as you tell a story of like, as long as, oh, this happened with veterans today, I want to cover this, but it doesn't necessarily have to lead the broadcast, but it's in the hour or the two hours. But that said, the stories you leave out are the ones that are, that are the heartbreaks and you're right.
It's tough. Are you ever put in a position where somebody reaches out or how often are you put in the position where people reach out, people who are, like Jason says, potentially policymakers, politicians, et cetera, who are reaching out to you and saying, hey, you should be covering this in order to serve their own needs.
Does that occur? Do you get those calls where people – because they realize the power that you have? Meaning if I called you up and I said, Jake, you need to be covering more about me. I want you to lead every hour with stuff about me to keep me in the conversation.
Which, by the way, is reasonable. Which is very reasonable.
And my passion, by the way, is Duran Duran. But if you could...
We got it. Yeah, I know you're hungry like the wolf.
Does that... But Jason is the wolf.
Do you... Teen, teen, teen.
I'm sorry, T-Bone. I saw that in the theater, by the way.
Two, two. No.
I saw that in the theater. I saw Teen Wolf.
I appreciate your cash, too. Teen Wolf, too.
Jake, you'll know that years ago, Jason and I and Sean played in this card game with Kyle Gass, one half of Tenacious D, for many years until we all lost too much money. But Jason's...
To Kyle. To Kyle.
Jason's nickname was T-dub as in teen wolf and he was that's a great nickname by the way may i ask is there a scene in teen wolf and i haven't seen it since two when did it come out already loving the area sorry teen wolf 2 i apologize it's worth a rewatch michael j fox was in the first jason was in the second teen wolf 2 did that come out in 86 85 i want to say 87 because that's the year I didn't graduate high school. Okay.
Because I was working long hours on T-Dub, T-Dub 2. T-Dub T, really? Yeah.
T-Dub T. Thank you.
T-Dub T. Is there a scene in that where you're in the locker room and you look down and you have an incredibly long chest hair and you're like, what the hell is this? Or is that T-Dub 1? No, no, it was T-Dub 2, and we had to cut it.
You may have seen it on the DVD extras. We had to cut it because of its unclassy sexual implications.
Wait a second. You just established that Jake is really busy, and you think he's watching the DVD extras on T-Dub? Yeah, no, he's got, he can manage his day.
That was definitely in the original print because I, no offense, I've only seen the film once in a theater. So maybe at the Balikinwood Pennsylvania movie theater, there was an errant copy, a secret unedited version? It was because of that screening they cut it.
This dovetails nicely into my next question pulled from your Wikipedia page. You dabbled with the idea of maybe going into the entertainment industry while you were at SC studying cinematic fine arts.
That's true. I went to Dartmouth and then after Dartmouth, I went to USC graduate school in film and I did one semester there.
What happened? Did you fire yourself from that too? There were a number of things that happened. One of them was I found Los Angeles...
Uh-oh. Careful.
An incredibly isolating, bleak place. Oh, my God.
Thank you for joining us today, Jake. Thank you.
Well, maybe if I had been hanging out with you, Jason, maybe if you were my friend then, I would have... Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and we could have been, like, partying with Dana Plato and Quinn Cummings. He was a very fair-weather friend back in those days.
You're lucky you didn't know him. I get it.
Los Angeles is a tricky place to find your tribe. The truth is, I was sitting in film production class listening to the Clarence Thomas hearings on my yellow Sony Walkman and I thought to myself, maybe I'm more interested in something else than I am in film.
And also the film production producer left the class in the middle of the semester to go, I think he was the DP on Harlem Nights. Oh my God.
Wow. But you're kind of tang kind of tangentially, uh, involved since your incredible books, uh, are, uh, at least one that I know of was made into a movie.
What last year? Yes. The Outpost.
That's a nonfiction book about Afghanistan that was made into a film by Rod Lurie starring Caleb Landry Jones and Orlando Bloom and Scotty's do it. And they did a great job.
Yeah. Did you get on set? Were you involved at all in sort of the creative? Yeah, I was an executive producer, and I went to Bulgaria to visit the set, and it was an interesting experience.
Did you enjoy? A lot of Bulgarians. More than you'd think.
More than you'd think. More than you'd think.
A lot of Bulgarians there. Were you involved in, like, kind of writing the script or playing around with editing or giving creative notes on set? How involved did you get? I was more involved in being a conduit between, because it's a real story, being a conduit between the people making the movie and the people who the movie's about.
I would offer notes. I saw early versions of the film.
There was a whole decision. The book takes place over a course of four years, and the movie is really focused just on the last month.
Right. And there was a whole kind of controversial decision within the community of the people who actually served there about whether or not people from earlier years, their stories could be told in the same narrative, even though they never actually served together.
Right. How much latitude could you take with what? Yeah, exactly.
So I was part of that. What's that responsibility like when you're telling a story like that, where the stakes are very high and you're telling very personal stories of people who are in really intense life? I don't even know how to say it.
You know, just things that were, you know, stakes couldn't be higher. What is that like? Do you feel a sort of a burden to, in that way, to really tell, make sure that your story reflects what actually happened and served all the people who, you know, sacrificed, etc.? It's a great question.
And the truth is, burden's not the word for it, but it was an immense responsibility. And we took it very, very seriously.
We even had like an early screening and flew people who had lost family members at the outpost to Washington, D.C. to see an early cut of the film.
It was almost done. There were some special effects that weren't in there yet, but it was almost fully completed, And I was a wreck.
I was an absolute wreck because

I didn't know, I mean, I'd seen the movie and I knew how I felt about it, which is I thought it told the story respectfully and somberly. It wasn't gratuitous, but it also didn't whitewash what happened and the like.
And, you know, and there were some liberties taken in terms of, in terms of the timing, the time people who served in 2006 were put in the narrative in 2009. But generally speaking, it was pretty accurate.
But I was terrified because, you know, A, I've never served, so I didn't know what it was going to be like for the veterans to see this. The people who had lost family members, I wondered, like, what are they going to feel like watching, you know, in the case of Ken and Beth Keating, whose son Ben Keating was killed in Afghanistan and the combat outpost was named after him.
They're going to watch Orlando Bloom play their son. What's that experience like? And then they're going to watch Orlando Bloom as their son die.
What's that experience going to be like? Like, so, but ultimately it was very, it was more of a relief than anything else.

But afterwards we went to each family member.

I walked around and every one of them

thought that the film had been fair and respectful

and they were honored.

Oh, that's great.

Did you feel that same responsibility, Sean,

in Three Stooges?

Yeah, I did.

Thank you, Will.

I went to the families of the descendants

of the Three Stooges and... What did they...
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That's betterhelp.com slash smartless. Let's talk about Body Slam, the Jesse Ventura story published in 1999.
My first book. Yeah.
What drew you to the story of Jesse Ventura? I mean, he's certainly an interesting guy, but was there one thing that was like, hang on, I need to really get in the cave on this one? I would say Body Slam is probably the Teen Wolf 2 of my career. You should be so lucky.
They came with a check and I needed some work. Yeah, it's the check part that was minus in mine.
Look, I had done some writing about sports and I worked for Washington City Paper, Free Weekly in D.C. and a publisher came to me and said you know Jesse Ventura was just elected they they need somebody to to do a book and they need it done in two months or something like that how old were you when you've got your first on-camera journalist job on camera like paid journalist job uh-huh 30 were you doing some amateur stuff before? In the Valley, just some stuff in the Valley.
Sure. It was CNN, actually.
I had a. So it was CNN.
Yeah, it was a show called Take Five where five young pundits sat around and talked about the news. And they put it on, they put it, the time slot was exactly when young people want to watch young pundits talking about the news Saturday night at 830.

Oh, man.

Sure.

Yeah, that's what all the cool kids are watching.

That's when young people are watching TV looking for news.

I love it. By the way, any time you use the term young people, you're immediately not hitting that demographic.

Yeah.

Hello, fellow young people.

Was that thrilling?

Was it like, I've arrived?

This is what I wanted to do?

No, it was.

No, because I was still a full-time print journalist. And it was just like, this is interesting.
This is fun. This is interesting.
I'm sure it's all super cringe. Who are your co-hosts? Again, it was a show by committee, like a camel as an animal by committee.
So it's take five. So it's five people.
It was me, Michelle Cottle, who now writes for the New York Times,

Robert George, who now writes for the New York Daily News.

And then for the other two slots, they were rotating seats.

Each seat had four people that rotated within them.

You just put them, like, on a spinning, kind of like there was, like, a Lazy Susan.

Lazy Susan, yeah.

It was more like The Price is Right where you spin it.

They bring them down on the wheel.

And, like, who's going to show up and oh.

How did that not survive? John Dickerson. How long was that on? Six months.
It's quite a run. Six months.
And our last show, I believe, was on September 8th, 2001. Oh, my gosh.
Wow. Oh, my gosh.
And then we were all waiting to find out if it was going to get renewed. Sure.
Yeah. And then something happened in the intervening days that made the show seem rather trifling.
Yeah. So, but now, Jake, you enjoy.
You enjoy, now that once you dabbled in that, in the on-camera thing, now you really enjoy it. And it's something.
I love it. I love doing the news.
And I love, and what the stuff I love is, here's a brilliant reporter who just spent a week in Myanmar. And here's her story about the coup there and like how oppressed the people there.
And here's nine minutes. Watch it.
And people have been pretty good. They've been watching it.
And so it's been exciting. Right.
Yeah, you can feel your genuine, sincere interest in all of these things. It is infectious.
I do. And I love your stick-to-itiveness.
When people try to wiggle off the hook, you keep them on it, and you see if they've got two or three answers to that same question or if they've just been prepped with one retort. And whether people think it or not about the separation that has been kind of put out there of fox news is only republican cnn is only you know left and uh which has always been such a misnomer yeah you you i don't think of us as left no right i think of msnbc but i know what you're saying though yeah no no but but you but you within cnn to me are truly center you really truly think about both sides.
You report the truth. That's not what you said before.
That's not what you said before the show, before Jake was here. What did I say? What did I say? We weren't recording that part, though.
You said that Jake was on the air. Well, no, this is the part that matters.
The truth is I don't think either party has all the answers. Right.
And I just, I really honestly don't. So when Governor Newsom, when your governor came on the show, I asked him some tough questions about that ill-fated meal he had.
Did you ever get him to admit that he needed to sweep the forest and rake them up? Somebody needs to hold his feet to the rake on that. Nice.
Well, so listen, on that, I don't want to get into a huge sort of political thing here. We can.

But given media and— People know that you are behind Caitlyn Jenner's campaign for governor.

People are aware.

We're going to get on that in a second.

Or is it Mary Carey?

Do you foresee—

You don't share a hangar, right?

You're in the next hangar over.

Is that true?

From Caitlyn?

Where do you park your cars and your jets?

My jet? Yeah. In the valley with Mary Carey.
Yeah. I like to keep my cars near my jet

always. That's, first of all, that's, that's just good business.
Jake, do you ever see a time when,

when media, or I should say news is obligated to have a sort of a vetting system, a, a threshold

beyond which these media companies may have to go before they report something. In other words- We do.
But it's an unregulated standard, isn't it? Oh, I see what you're saying, yes. Like, let's say New York Times, Washington Post, they have to have like two or three sources before the editor will say, yes, you can go with that story.
But it's sort of self-regulated. You think there'll ever be a national or international- Like an objective body? Where you know it's not fake news.
No. There will never be an objective body because A, the First Amendment precludes that sort of thing.
People can publish whatever they want, whenever they want. Right, but you have to label it as opinion as opposed to how they try to frame it as fact.
Well, no, because then you would have lobbying on every side to like who gets to sit on that committee and who gets to decide that. And then ultimately that very committee will become sullied by politics.
Like, that would be impossible to regulate. The answer is no, I don't see that happening.
But I understand what you're driving at because I've thought about this a lot, especially after the election lie was repeated and, quote, unquote, reported so often on— According to you on fox and and some of the other networks

newsmax or whatever which is there are no standards there is no requirement there's no professional organization you have to get certified by so when you have a news organization that runs with a you know totally bogus story like joe biden wants to regulate you to one hamburger a month.

There goes my weekend.

I mean, listen,

it would... a totally bogus story like Joe Biden wants to regulate you to one hamburger a month.
Right. There goes my weekend.
I mean, but it does beg the question, where's the beef? And I think that that's something that people aren't. Guys, you are always dropping some Claire Peller.
You always love to drop the Peller. One of the insurrectionists is literally claiming that they're claiming literally foxitis.
I think it's literally what their defense attorney called it, whereby they're trying to find an excuse because they were pumped so much information that it caused them to do that. They believe that it was true.
So when they can establish that reporting stuff that is not true will yield damaging results, you would think that shortly after

that some sort of regulation would follow because somebody might get killed because of the things that people are saying. Well, and it's happened.
They have gotten killed. Right.
Yeah. So what do you do about it? Yeah.
Right. That's the question.
So that's something I've been thinking about a lot and grappling with a lot. And, you know, it's funny.
After the broadcaster in England said something nasty about Meghan Markle, about how he didn't believe her. Sure.
They have like an independent regulatory body that takes comment. I mean, the parliament runs it.
Right. Or appoints people and all that, but they have something like that.

And Twitter had to put that in with Trump's tweets, where they had to label things as, okay, this is not true.

You can still say it, but we get to put a label on it.

That's just sort of like the half measure that I would think is possible, where you can vet something.

I recognize a lot of news is live or a lot of opinion shows are somewhat live or doesn't allow for as much time to vet something. Right now it's based on shame, right? Right now it's based on shame.
And that obviously doesn't work if you're shameless. It does not.
Right? Like, so for instance, when CNN messes up, and we do, just like every news organization, we correct it. If needed, we apologize, et cetera.
To maintain credibility, for God's sake. Right.
Fox doesn't. So what do we do about that? And I don't think that a government regulation is the answer, but I do grapple with it.
I mean, one of the things that I think needs to be done is I think that there are professional media organizations, whether it's the White House Correspondents Association or, you know, just various other groups that need to, we need to start

asserting ourselves within those groups.

Like for instance, there's a, there's a thing that this is inside baseball and silly sounding,

but there's a rotating pool, which is all the major, you know, Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS,

PBS, we all rotate cameras.

If there's like an event that the government will only let us have one camera.

Right.

And we all rotate.

Right.

Well, if one of those organizations, Fox,

A, feels no compunction about lying

or sharing falsehoods,

B, I don't know if you saw,

but Governor DeSantis not long ago signed a bill

and it was an exclusive on Fox and Friends.

Yeah.

Which is crazy.

That's like the definition of state TV.

Right.

If one of these organizations is not behaving

the way that the others are,

I think it's an open question

as to whether it should be treated

the way all the others are.

Right, of course.

Well, and the defense is also on their part is that no, it's the five-year-old defense. No, you're lying.
So it just perpetuates for eternity. That's what causes all of this.
It's like, no, we're telling the truth. No, you're lying.
No, you're lying. Right, and we're saying that eventually that perhaps somebody should be the adult and come in and like the FCC, just say, okay, you don't have access to the pipe then.
And if you want to get your stuff out, you have to, you have to come up just like, just like Twitter did. Listen, we're just going to shut you off from this.
You can still get your statements out, you know, if you want to like issue a press release. Jason, if that body had existed during the Trump years, what would have happened? Which body? This independent agency, the Bateman Commission.
Right. The Bateman Commission.
Yeah. If the Bateman Commission— It's a great name.
It would have been stacked with Corey Lewandowski and Seb Gorka. Right.
Well, we wouldn't let those fellas in. We would have a big, huge community of folks to vote on it that's equally divided between left and right.
But the problem is you're talking about perspective. And even though two people can look at the same thing, they're always going to claim that they look at it a different way.
Whatever it is you say, it's going to be tough to move people on that because they're so indoctrinated with these other ideas. And that might take longer than just, hey, you know, change your opinion right now.
This is going to be a thing that's going to take a while to do because this is something that has been perpetuated. This other perspective has been perpetuated for so long now.
I think the Bateman Commission is dangerous. Yeah.
That's what I think. By the way, you mentioned the thing about that reporter who was held to account in the UK.
But my favorite part was when that other co-host, the guy who BBC or whatever it was in that morning show, accused him of being diabolical as he stormed off. And I thought that was the greatest assessment.
He was like, your behavior is diabolical. Not a word you had in your pocket? No, but I've been using it a lot.
Diabolique. Am I allowed, by the way, to say, by the way, am I allowed to fangirl for a second and say that I'm a big fan of all your work, all three of you? This part will stay in.
This part will stay in. Guys, let him finish.
I just want to say to Will, the Lego show that you did brought us lots of joy. Oh, thanks, man.
Because I got a big Lego fan. My son is really into Legos.
Really? Will will you build build sets with him i used to he's kind of aged out of it which is by the tail end of it we it was just in time to enjoy will's show there's some really cool challenging adult lego sets some of the architectural stuff it's very um it's very zen right it is very zen and we have what's amazing is we have so many, we just finished, we got the second season coming up is how many incredible builders are coming out of the woodwork and making and coming on the show. And we can't believe the stuff that they do.
And they all say the same similar thing, which is not only they just enjoy it, but they also get, they find it very therapeutic. We did a thing with some veterans where we were finding during the pandemic, a lot of veterans were using Lego to help them deal with certain aspects of PTSD, et cetera.
And we provided a bunch of Lego sets. And that was really— You're the real hero, Will.
I guess, I mean, I'm not—look, that word is thrown around a lot, but I'll take the moniker. All his stories kind of end the same way, yeah.
Well, they said that we don't need another hero, but I disagree. We don't need another hero.
Nice. So good.
Jake, how are you, can you give us sort of a breakdown of your day and how you delegate your time? A typical day for you, what time do you get up? How much time do you spend researching the news? 10 a.m. out of bed.
10 a.m., that's late. Seven, you know, seven up.

What happens right at seven?

Do we go right for the coffee or do we go right for the paper?

Right for my phone to read the newspaper.

Now, are you in bed?

Does that phone sleep next to you?

Or are you disciplined about,

or do you have to keep it on in case something happens while you're sleeping?

I have to keep it on in case somebody needs to call me

to wake me up in the middle of the night for whatever reason. And I did that one time, by the way, one time I've been only been on air at CNN for about a month.
And I was in Boston covering the Boston marathon bombing and they had not caught the Tsarnaev brothers yet. And then it was like 1130 or 12 at night.
And I was just sitting in the hotel room online. And then people start tweeting at me

the web address of the Somerville, Massachusetts police

radio scanner for the,

and anyway, long story short,

I spent the whole night up on air.

And there were people,

I still hear from them every now and then

who went through this experience with me

where we were like, we were getting these reports.

And obviously this was the confrontation

where one of the brothers got killed and then the other brother escaped and then hid in the boat and all that. And we were all getting all this weird news in the middle of the night.
Anyway, so just in case that were out to ever happen. But so you have to sleep, getting back to this, because it's like right out of a movie, right? Yeah, the phone's right here.
But you're not, it's not buzzing or beeping every time you email or text email or text so you have a specific number that is that's the only one that will bleed through and wake you up and that is would be a hotline from your no it's my phone's on i mean if somebody wants to call me it's just your phone is on they could wake me up anybody could you could jason you have my number how often do you do you erroneously have your your flashlight on and you have to be told hey granddad turn off your flashlight oh jake jake does happen a lot? We're all getting old, right? It's okay, Jake, admit it. Am I the oldest one on this call? Maybe.
I'm 52. I might be.
I look the youngest. Are you older than 52? Because I think I'm the oldest of the three of us, right? I'm 52.
When's your birthday? March. Okay, then I'm in January.
So I'm the granddad here. You're the oldest.
Interesting. That's right.
Jason's the oldest. Do you want to know my day? My day is this.
I get up early. I read, I read, I read.
The kids leave the house at 8. I talk to my executive producer at 8.30.
And then from 8.30 until 1.00, 1.30, I'm doing a combination of interviewing, talking to sources, reading, exercising, and getting to work. Now, are you doing work when you're exercising? When you're exercising, I'm imagining cardio on a treadmill and there's some sort of either computer or in front of you or a phone call, a headset.
Don't answer yet. Don't answer yet.
Sean, you also guess the exercise and then I'm going to guess too. Okay.
So I've got them on a treadmill. You said treadmill.
Sean, what do you think, Jake? High-paced walking, high-hands walking. Sean, what do you think? It's a Peloton thing.
I don't know. It's a Peloton.
Okay. I think elliptical.
Okay, so he's got both hands moving forward. Well, or he could do also just the steady hand.
He doesn't show you. No, I want to change my answer.
I think he just sits on a yoga ball, and he calls that. And he bounces slowly.
And he that exercise. Core strength.
He calls that exercise. Okay.
And he calls that exercise. Jake? First of all, the implication is none of you think I look that good.
No, you look incredible. I said elliptical.
You look incredible. I mean, elliptical is tough.
Elliptical thin. Yeah.
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Shit, shit, shit.
Did it? Rowing? Is rowing machine probably? I think he's a row machine guy. How dare you? I'm switching.

I'm switching before you.

The ERG machine,

the people,

the crew guys in college

always look so good.

That's what I thought

because I thought Pennsylvania,

you might be like a crew guy.

Okay, go ahead.

So before the pandemic,

it was like I had a trainer.

I went to a gym.

It was like a lot of stuff.

You did look great

before the pandemic.

So pandemic era,

which is what we're in.

I will just answer that,

which is you should have kept with Peloton, Sean, because it was Peloton. Okay, okay.
And I watch a movie. Watch a movie? I'm making my way through the Marvel Cinematic Universe now.
Headphones or speakers? Just speakers. Nobody's in, I have a little gym room.
Yeah, because headphones get sweaty. Why are you shaking your head? Jason's disappointed in me for watching Supergirl movies.
I'm thinking about Will and his sweaty headphones. I just, I can tell.
There's probably just sets and sets of them. I watch Teen Wolf 2.
I get pumped. That'll get you running.
That'll make you sweat. With the long hair.
You're writing a book. You're doing the thing.
You're reading the thought. You're exercising.
You're going to the, like, is your family like, hey, remember us? Good question. Like, do they ever go like, hey, you're working way too much?

Because to me, you just, you work so much.

But the kids are at school.

Where's mom?

The kids are at school at this point.

Mom is working.

She does some freelance consulting and stuff.

I mean, I spend time with the kids in the morning.

Quick, what are their names?

Hey, listen, why'd your voice go up?

We're not accusing you of anything, Jack.

Yeah, you sound so defensive.

Alice is 13 and Jack is 11. Can you remember their middle names? Alice Paul and Jack Raymond.
Good for you. That's nice.
Really, really tight. Will, quick, what are your kids' names? Starting with direction.
And Sean. Yeah, I sold mine.
Okay. Tell me where illustration, cartoon drawing, and all that stuff still lives or not in your world.
So I wanted to be a cartoonist. That's what I wanted to do.
And I spent years and years trying to be the next Gary Trudeau. Or the next Jimmy Kimmel.
He's got a pretty good pen on him. I know.
He's an excellent artist. There's a better way to say that.
He has a cartoon that I drew of him and I have a cartoon that he drew of me in our homes. Cue the love music.
I love Jimmy. Jake, were you the one who provided the video recently of Jason on his first appearance on The Tonight Show? On The Tonight Show, yes.
Oh, that's right. It really, it made its way into an extended chain, text chain that we have, and Jason took heat for like an hour and a half.
Of Joseph Bateman? Joseph Bateman's first appearance on The Tonight Show?

Oh, Joseph.

Do you see how, a moment of self-indulgence,

do you see how obnoxiously calm and confident

that douchebag I was at 15?

Like, why was I so comfy there in front of Johnny Carson?

I mean, there's such a...

Well, we know why.

Everybody thinks... Because you were two weeks removed from what oh yeah i uh well i i became sexually active at 15 uh to put it uh yeah you had just like two weeks before lost your virginity before you went to carson i believe that about time's out no wonder you were smoking a cigarette yeah i.
But no, were you guys, do you guys remember being as fond of yourself at 15 as I was? Well, none of us remember being on Johnny Carson when we were 15. No, but there's a blissful ignorance at that age, right? But that was your whole thing at that time.
It's your move, right? That was what you were selling on the show. Naively, I thought it was never going to descend.
God, we loved it. I loved that show.
Did you guys love that show as much as I did? It was a great show. It was so good.
I don't think it holds up. Sean, did you love it? You loved that It's Your Move, right? I loved everything Jason Bateman has ever done.
It's Your Move was really good, but I don't recall it lasting that long. Am I wrong about that? No, it was less than a season.
Yeah. You know what, guys? I love it when I can shape an interview into something about me.
I end up doing this quite a bit. It's a talent I'm going to share with you guys.
Well, Will started it because I'm the one that, and it's my fault because I sent that Johnny Carson clip to you. And it's just like wildfire.
Yeah, you did seem like a douche on Carson though. That's true.
Right? Well, you know why? Because I pointed out in our chain the other day that he was a douche because he was knee-deep in Valley Beave at that point. And so he was...
So he just had that confidence. Valley Beave.
Oh, man. And also what was so amazing about it was...
Well, first of all, I thought Carson was kind of... I thought the questions were kind of tough.
he's asking you about whether or not you believe in past lives yeah you're 15 you're 15 what the hell like those were some real crazy questions and then would you ask you'd never ask somebody on your show if they believed in that the question was based on the fact that he had fucked up jason's name he called him joe yeah Yeah, I know. And then to try to crawl out of it.
By the way, I revere Carson and everything, but to try to crawl out of it, all of a sudden he's like acting as if perhaps he was actually Joseph Bateman. And like, do you believe in other lives? Do you believe in past lives? It's just fucked up the name, man.
You got to admire the bailout, the attempt to get out of it with that.

I mean, that's a pretty deep way to get out of it.

Did we even say that when he introduced you, he said the wrong name?

I don't know if he ever said that.

Yes, yeah, he did.

Introduced me as Joseph Bateman, and then I—

Oh, nobody said it on this.

Yeah, because our phone lines were lighting up from Wisconsin.

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Do you think that this big lie has sustainability and will go all the way to the next election? Because I think the hardest-hitting question for a moderator in the next presidential debate is going to be directly at the Republican candidate and saying, do you believe that this happened? But we'll know the answer to that already because that question will have been asked and answered. And what I suspect is you will either have somebody who is a full blown election truther and says the election was stolen.
Or you will have somebody who tries to walk the line and say things like, I have a lot of questions about the election. A lot of states passed emergency legislation that I thought was in violation of their state's constitutions.
And I have a lot of concerns about it, which is why we passed such and such in my state. But I want to look forward, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is basically not denouncing the election lie, not fully embracing it, trying to walk a line.
And I suspect the next Republican nominee will do that and beat up reporters enough so that they stop trying to get a definitive answer. It didn't work.
I mean, you can follow Trump and assume that there's enough voters out there for it to work, but it's been proven now twice that it's just simply not enough people. They got to put a different candidate up, right? Or have a different...
I don't know. I don't know.
I mean, as a general note, I agree with what you're saying, that the future of the Republican Party needs to be more expansive. They can't be kicking people like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney out of the party.
They need to embrace facts and truth and share their opinions and their views. But I don't know that they're going to do that.
And I don't know that that's the only way that they can win a presidential election. I don't know that.
I mean, we'll see. I mean, it's possible that, I mean, Democratic voters are not necessarily hugely reliable.
I mean, they are where you guys live in California. But like in battleground states, they're not.
And we're Hollywood elite, by the way. We're liberal elite.
You don't like it when I just say California. You want to make sure that I'm identifying.
Hollywood, liberal elite. Malibu, Venice Beach.
By the way, I'm from Toronto. Sean's from Chicago.
And Jason's from the Valley, which is about, you know, which is at least a 40 minute drive. In rush hour, forget it.
And I'm not coming. You're from the city of Toronto? I'm from downtown Toronto.
I grew up, yeah. Yeah? Yeah, it's a good town.
I feel the rough scrabble roots in your voice. Yeah, yeah, the hard-nosed streets of T0.
I said something critical of Prime Minister Trudeau on TV and on Twitter. You got to be Canadian.
Boy, those Canadians can be impolite, I learned. They're very, they're very impolite.
And also I will say this as a Canadian who moved down here almost 30 years ago, uh, more than 30 years ago, I, I, when I came here, I had such a chip on my shoulder because you feel like you're the kid brother of the U S and so you have that thing. And if any, you're so, I was so defensive about Canada for so long.
And I'd be like, well, we do this and we do that. We've talked a lot about it.
We have William Shatner. Yeah.
We're constantly calling out everybody who's a famous Canadian. Like somebody will go, yeah.
So I actually saw this great movie with Mike Myers. He's Canadian.
We're like, yeah, we know, man, we got it. And, but there is that thing.
And so I think that they're very, they can be very defensive and I get it. Cause I, I went through that myself.
You do feel, are you an American now? I am both. I'm both, but I was like, I'm dual and it feels like I'm, I'm, I'm bi.
And, um, don't hang up everybody. No, no, no.
Sorry. I'm not saying bi.
No, no, no. It's just, I'm bi citizen.
But you feel like, and to make a hockey analogy, we feel like we're very similar in a lot of ways culturally, but we're up against the glass kind of looking in, like right at Center Ice. We got great seats.
We got great seats. Yeah, yeah.
And Canada's an incredible country. Do you guys like hockey? Are we still talking about Toronto? Oh, sorry.
Did we want to bring it back to fucking Teen Wolf 2? Yeah, please. For fuck's sake, we only did 11 minutes of it.
Jake, I'm so sorry to have taken your time. I was, anyway, my only point was I was amazed that Prime Minister Trudeau's fans were as loyal and devoted to him as Trump's fans or Obama's fans are too.
Jake, this is my point. They're not.
Those same people in their own conversations at home. Oh, they're just mad because I'm American and I said something.
Because you're American and you said it, then they're defensive. And that's true.
And any Canadian who's listening to this who disagrees with me, you're lying. Jake, Eagles or Phillies? Why do I have to pick? You have to pick.
You have to. Guns to your head.
The gun is right to your head. Mm-hmm.
Well, you know what, Sean? You go first. Sean, you go first.
Eagles or Phillies? I'll give you an out there. I will say for 2021, which are you more bullish on? Phillies.
Phillies. Okay.
Yeah, I'm really worried about the Eagles right now. I feel like everybody that took us to the Super Bowl is gone.
I am too. It's been traded.
Sean, you share his concern, Sean? Oh, God, yeah. Bobby Clark or Eric Lindros? Lindros.
Really? Okay. Well, because I know Lindros.
Of course. Do you? Of course.
I went to an Eagles game and met him. What's Eric Lindros doing nowadays? He's up in uh...
Do you know what he's up to? Maybe 280, 290? That's what he's up to? I don't know. I'm just, by the way, just kidding.
I'm sure he's in great shape and I don't want him to beat me up. Jake, what does the rest of your day look like? It's Saturday.
What are you going to do today? Write a couple more books? Right after this, I'm doing an interview with the White House director of COVID. Oh my God, say hi for us.
Jeff Zients. That's going to air on Sunday morning.
Say hi for us. And then I come back and I'll prepare for tomorrow's show and play with my son.
Is there a part of you, I mean, I'm such a fan of politics. I just, I love watching politics on the news and reading about it.
Then, by the way, you should read The Devil May Dance. Oh, what is that? Is that a new book? It has a lot of politics in it.
This is about finding your soulmate in the disco. It's not.
But I know it's a book that you're recommending all of your listeners to purchase. Is it a book that's available now? It's available now, yes.
And find bookstores. You can get it on Amazon.
You can get it at Barnes & Noble. You can get it on jaketapper.com.
You can get it. Jake, I'm going to read it.
Of the three of us, I'm the only one who reads. And I'm going to read that book.
And I'm not going to have any notes for you. Just know now I pretty enjoy it.
You got a rave review in the New York Times today. I got a New York Times rave review.
You never get that. No, and I'm going to tell you.
I think you guys actually would like it. It's about Hollywood in the 60s.
Let me tell you why you would like it. I don't like Hollywood now.
Why would I like it back then? Per the New York Times, the New York Times says the gears of this thriller move expertly and fast. The seriousness of this book never gets in the way of the breathless fun.
Tapper obviously enjoyed sourcing it, writing it, and using can you stop this gamesmanship from start to finish. Just when you think he's pulled the biggest rabbit out of his hat,

he turns out to have been hiding something even bigger.

He also makes Margaret a wonderful role model for many people who will enjoy

this buoyant book.

By the way, my...

But I mean, good for you, Jake.

Come on.

New York Times doesn't just hand out raves.

They don't.

They don't.

My review is be careful about wanting to tango in hell because the devil may dance. Oh, and that's going to end our interview today, Mr.
Tapper. I'm happy to send you all copies.
Jason has my number. I would love that book.
Oh, my God. You're going to get on a thread you're going to want to leave immediately.
Sean sends the greatest videos of little kitties on skateboards. They'll keep your day moving.
Kittens and and puppies kittens and puppies i'm happy to start like a you know a text chain oh you got it careful what you wish for i mean if you want if you want to do it ready mr tapper toronto toronto maple leaf news 24 7 i'm so excited i appreciate your time because we've established it's very valuable and very crowded so thank you for sharing this uh this bit with today. By the way, I apologize that it was so early, but I...
I just like to complain. When my assistant told me we were doing this at 8 a.m.
Pacific time, I said, that can't be right because I'm pretty sure they'll all be sleeping. Well, at least Will's face is in a jar of ice still.
That's why it's so beautiful and, you know. Thank you, Jay i've been up since 5 45 i've been up since 5 45 because i was watching leeds tottenham and uh formula one qualifying from spain so and same wow huh okay thank you jake jake wow thank you man all right hit me up on the thread talk to you bye buddy bye uh that uh that that that Tapper, you know, he seems like such a – he is such a – again, I use the word adult.
Like he knows all – he's so smart. He talks to all these world leaders.
But when you talk to him like in this form, he's just such a regular guy and he's got his little hoodie on and his hair is all messed up. That's what I was talking about too, Jason, was like that teacher reference, right? When you're a kid and you see a teacher outside of their environment in school.
It's like, oh, you see, there's Jake Tapper with a hoodie on and like a regular person. It takes a while to add it up.
I can't believe he smoked weed the entire interview too because I thought that was for a guy who covers the news. That much weed? He kept his wits about him.
Yeah. And he kept saying, I got this sticky BC bug.
But you know, in all honesty, he would like, he will, and I hope he doesn't get mad at me for revealing this. He will text me the most inane stuff in the middle of his show.
Like he's able to juggle so many balls or spin plates or whatever the phrase

is. He's just, I don't know

how he's able to do both. By the way, that's maybe

someone like him, because he has to do

that, he has to text you that. Like, he's

got to keep everything moving all the time

because if he doesn't,

then the bottom drops out and then he's

in the corner in the fetal position in

tears. And that's what I want to see.

Same here. I want to see Jake Tapper in tears, but in the studio on camera.
I want to see it. That'd be great.
Wouldn't it be great? Yeah. Yeah.
And you'd see all of his mascara running. Oh my God.
Not a lot of people know he wears heavy eyeliner. He wears a lot of mascara.
And the eyelashes are fake too. Are they? That's the majority of his time in the makeup chair.
He's gluing on the eyelashes. They make his eyes pop.
I'll say that. They really make his eyes pop.
What a gig, though. What a gig.
His whole makeup is great. I guess one would refer to that as the...
Uh-oh. Here we come.
Violin. No.
No. No.
You know what? No. We've been calling foul a couple times, and I refuse that, too.
I'll tell you, the one... Did we use that one already? You did use one in the interview that maybe we can revisit now.
Yeah. About your citizenship.
Yeah, that I'm not, I'm not a dual citizenship. I'm a by citizen.
Smart Yes. Smart Yes.
Hey friends, Jason SmartList. first to hear new episodes ad-free and a whole week early, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcasts plus to start your free trial today.
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