Couples Therapy: Reddit Edition | Reading Reddit Stories

Okay, it's kind of embarrassing how bad I am at budgeting. Let me see your charges.

Fine. You spent over $600 on takeout last month.
I can't cook. You know this.
Yes, I have had your disgusting food, but you're literally paying for a meal subscription on top of that.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Hello, and welcome to Smosh Reads Reddit Stories. I'm Shane, and today's theme is a good one.
Dating.

Everyone loves dating. It's so easy, right? I'm joined by two bombshells, Angela and Chance.

Us being bombshells and walking in together would be so fun. Do they do it in couples? Sometimes they have like a boy bombshell and a girl bombshell.
That's fun. And they usually come in with like

hot whips and leather, and you and I would come in with like wigs.

And we'd be like, you guys are ready for a second. You'd come in as like old people, but then you'd take it on and be like, oh.

Okay, so we're going to put water in your mouth and you're going to spit.

Dating. How do you guys feel about dating? I love dating.
Yeah? I really do. I love going on dates.
I love going on like a third or fourth date and then like trial and error and be like, no, girl.

Wow.

Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. Whoa.
That is a very different perspective than I ever had. No, yeah.
Yeah. That's my favorite thing about chance is how much he loves dating.

Like he can like, like, he could just listen to somebody and get to know them, like, and have, like, patience and not be like, in his head, he's just listening.

And he's like, she'll also be like, you can't, you cannot go on another date. I'll like line him up for the week.
I'll be like, I got one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, one on Thursday.

He really loves it. Yeah.
And I have never done it. That's okay.
Okay, so it feels like everyone laughed.

So I got a weird vibe from everyone? No, that was, I mean, when I was single, I would go months or years without going on a date because it just was like hard and terrifying.

And I'm such an anxious person.

Like, I can try to blame the world around me, but I also know that it was a lot from inside for me. But I also think it's really fucking hard.
But it does make for the best stories. Oh, absolutely.

Like, I just have so much. You just collect them like infinity stones.

Wow. Damn.
What the hell?

A Thanos reference from Angela?

What has happened? I don't know, girl. You've been...
I need to take a vacation. Yeah, whoa.

You've been spending too much time here.

I cannot believe that. That is crazy.

That's nuts. You're going to make like a Resident Evil reference at some point.
It's going to be like... No, no, God, no.

All right. Let's get into these stories.
First one comes from Am I Overreacting? Okay. He's been pursuing me, then sent me a spreadsheet asking to be reimbursed for our dates.
No, no. Let's go.

This is going to be a good episode. Am I overreacting?

This is it. We're going to, this is all of it.

Oh my gosh. Hi, everyone.
I am a 23-year-old woman, and I've been dating this guy who's 32 for a little over a month now.

He was very persistent in pursuing me, constantly texting, making plans, asking me to go on runs, bike rides, and beach days. Boring.
We live in Florida. No.

And inviting me to dinner, bars, and even paying for Ubers to and from his place. We were hanging out at least four times a week.
Everything felt like it was going somewhere.

He'd been slowly building things up and even waited weeks to finally kiss me.

Then, out of nowhere, he sends me a literal Excel spreadsheet with a breakdown of dates, how much he spent, and a column with my name asking me to reimburse him.

I'm attaching it because I truly can't believe it. It felt transactional and weirdly formal, especially since he was the one initiating nearly all the plans.

What's even more confusing, after sending me this, he still insists on seeing me and continuing to date. Like, you want to invoice me and kiss me?

And for context, I've picked up the tab quite a few times, dinner, drinks, etc., without making a thing of it. I've never asked him to pay me back or keep score.

I thought we were just getting to know each other and splitting things organically like adults, especially since he's about 10 years older than I am. So am I overreacting or underreacting?

I can't tell if this is just him being organized or if it's a huge red flag.

There's a screenshot attached. Oh my gosh.

Okay, we have item, Sigs, $6.28, $12.08,

$4.03.

So he's adding up every single thing.

Katiki, which must be a restaurant, Cassis, Cheeky's, Colony Grill,

Uber.

um these are a lot of these expenses are kind of small but then it just all adds up to how much uh in total she owes him 249 that is this is ridiculous

yeah for all of this and these dates go back this this is probably a month of expenses he's kept and he's splitting it in half It's a little bit in half. It's just a whole spreadsheet, though.

And he's calculating every single little thing. But even cigarettes.
No. There's one that that says google 9.99 five dollars

okay so she wasn't charged for the cigarettes she wasn't charged she wasn't charged for google um

but i like there's one that just says stella's

and she's not charged for that so that must have been for him oh my god oh there's another line that says stella's and she's charged for it no let me get this straight she had one he sent this to her with the

hold on we have the text. Okay, yes.
Hate to ask, but can you Venmo or sell me some money for the last few weeks?

I know you got me some stuff, which I'm appreciative of and definitely happy to cover most things like our date night and drinks and stuff, but you never paid me for the first round of stuff from a few weeks ago.

And money is a little tight for me and a source of stress right now, working two jobs, etc.

Okay. She responds, sure.

He goes, okay, I think $100 is fair unless you have any objections. She goes, are you charging me for for in-between days?

He goes, I'm charging you $100 for the $500 of stuff I've covered since we've started hanging. You never paid me the last time I asked for some money.

She goes, all right, maybe we shouldn't go out as much. He goes, LOL, I can't tell if you're butt hurt.
I'm asking for $100.

Not butt hurt. Not butt hurt.

Not butt hurt.

It had me till butt hurt. I mean,

I'm just, I guess

this is such a like,

I've never heard of this before. Money is so weird.
I think if this is the situation, he should be asking to split things up front. At the top.
Yeah, I'm like, that's fine. Yeah.

But don't do this in the retroactive. By the way, you got to reimburse me.

There's nothing more frustrating, I think, in life in general when people don't let you know that you owe them.

Or like, yeah, when someone makes a list about you without your knowledge, it just feels like they're still alarming about it.

i remember like i used this is so different but there was i used to like work at some office as some like like intern and she had me log every time one of the other co-workers came in late

and the log was like massive and i remember just being like this girl doesn't know yeah that there's a giant excel sheet that i have to add to every time she's late it just feels weird if you don't know

amongst so many other things monitoring monitoring someone's behavior in that kind of way without their knowing

feel odd.

I know that in companies, like it's sometimes part of it. Yeah.
And I also know a lot of people love an Excel spreadsheet. Like people love to organize things in that way.

That's fine, but he's not letting her know this situation. He does say, like, I asked you last time.

He said that. He says, you never paid me the last time I asked for some money.

So I think this is him keeping tabs of his own personal expenses because some of these things don't involve her, but he has a tab for her of like, oh, we both did this.

So you're so he's he's not letting her know, or at least as far as we know, he's not letting her know that, oh, we're splitting this, but I'm gonna ask for the money later.

Like, I budget my life at the end of the month, and that's when I'm gonna ask for you to pay me.

And because we've been seeing each other for everything all up front, yeah, for everything, and that's so that's so intense because instead of being like, hey, 20 bucks for tonight, and I'm sorry, I'm asking for a hundred bucks later.

This age gap, too. Like, yeah, I he's 32.
This woman is 23, like she just got out of college, allegedly.

Like, if she went to college, like, she's not in a place to have a career like he is, I feel like.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. He says he works two jobs.
We don't know her. We don't know a lot of that, those details.

But, you know, with all these Reddit stories, age gap is always,

it seems to always be a precursor to, like,

oh, it is a bit of a red flag.

It's not that it's always bad, but it's that it's like every time we read a story and it starts off with an age gap, you're like, here we go. What's going to happen? And it's usually something.

Or like, this is something he's been doing for like 10 plus years,

which is his like monthly Excel budget sheet. And to just like loop in a girl you're casually dating without her knowledge or consent is why.

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We got some comments.

What in the ever-loving, nah, baby, this 32-year-old

man actively pursued you, made the plans, had you spotting the bills sometimes, led you to believe that y'all's dating was going somewhere, all while secretly keeping a spreadsheet of everything he spent on you?

We are not playing this game. First of all, he didn't come to you with respect, not with, hey, I'm in a tight spotter.
Can we talk?

No, he came with a spreadsheet setting the tone with expectation, not communication. The message was clear, you owe me.
Secondly, this might be my favorite by the way.

He can't even manage his own finances, but he suddenly knows how to organize numbers when it's about you. Thirdly, he really had the audacity to say, I can't tell if you're butt hurt.

Like he thought, or let's be honest, really hoped you'd get bent out of shape over his little manipulation tactic. The writing on the wall is so clear with this one.

This is about control, about what he can get, about how far he can push, about what you'll tolerate.

There will always be a spreadsheet, a reminder, a tally of what he's done for you and what you owe him.

If you stay with this man, you'll always be in debt, always paying it back financially, emotionally, and mentally.

And when you finally react, because this is a literal form of abuse, you'll be the one labeled the problem. The proof is in this whole interaction.
Don't just walk away, run.

You've got too much life ahead of you. Spending time on someone like this.

Do I, okay.

That was amazing.

Hey, look, a part of me is like, hey, whoa,

but a part of me is also like, go ahead.

It does start somewhere, right? Like, like, bad relationships don't start on day one of just like, oh, he was an absolute nightmare. No, it starts and they see that's how manipulation works.

So I think this person's probably speaking from clear experience. Yeah.
It's like, whoa, what have you dealt with?

Yeah, that person, that's like you tell your friend at a bar what's going on with you and she's like, here's what I have to say.

And you're like, whoa.

It also feels like we're not giving this guy the benefit of the doubt in that he this it he clearly missed something and it wasn't communicated but i don't think he's beyond uh repro beyond being

uh beyond fixing this beyond like realizing oh maybe i should have communicated this up front and if she's like this is something you should have communicated up front even though i don't know his dating history or if he's done this before but like he can probably he could be able to fix this and be like oh we can split things moving forward yeah I agree.

What I do agree with this comment is that like so many things, it's not necessarily the

content that's the problem, right? It's not that he's keeping tabs. I mean, it's, there's questions.
It's, it's how he's communicating so much of it that's a problem.

And I agree with the like the being like, oh, are you butthurt? Whatever. It's like how he's doing this is, it's how he's going across.
how he's coming across with it that's manipulative.

As opposed to, oh, asking someone to split the money.

It's not a problem.

It's how he's going about it. And it's just like the dislike to me, there's a little bit of deceit to not say it for so long.
Yeah, absolutely.

And that's what's like, it's like less about control and more about like hiding something.

If he's not being manipulative, then at the very least, he's just very bad at communicating with her.

He's not communicating with her. And that's a problem in itself, even if his intentions aren't bad.

I think it's those little things when you go out with someone,

it sometimes feels like it's not necessary to say, but I think it is still nice when it's like, oh, I've got this. Like, oh, are we still doing this?

Just like, and, and being like, that's, that's that. And I, I've always kind of had the,

I don't like the heteronormative expectation that like a man pays. Yeah.

But I do, I've always kind of, in my head, had this thing of like, whoever kind of asks the other person on the date is probably the one who's going to pay.

And, but once again, at the end of the date, if they go, hey, like, or at the top of the date, you go, hey, do you mind if we split this? Like, I'm in a tight spot. Like,

that's okay. And there's also a way to go.
There's so many opportunities to go on physically responsible dates. Totally.
It's like, I will say, I had somebody say to me

that they were on a tight budget before a date. And I recognize that, like, that's hard to say.

Like, it's like, and it does feel like this guy was like, let me just get to know her more and feel more comfortable or something where he was just like, I don't want to say this up top.

And there is a level of courage it takes to be like,

like, I want, like, it's vulnerable, but like, still, you got, you can't make an Excel sheet and add a tab for your girl. You can't do that.

It's once again, though, I always struggle when people are like, oh, so I kept this secret for a month or so because I didn't think you'd like me.

It's like, but don't you want to know if this person is going to be into you for like your real situation?

I understand that on a first date, maybe a couple dates, but like you got to let them know eventually. You can't keep keeping it a secret.

I don't know if that was this guy's intentions, but that's a possibility. Some Some other comments.

Quite frankly, if this guy's in his 30s, working two jobs and dead broke, he needs to be focused elsewhere, not dating a college girl. If he wanted to do cheap slash free dates, that is fine.

And if he wanted to go Dutch, that is fine, but to come back and hit you with a bill is crazy.

You haven't been itemizing date bills to send him, dinners you covered, beauty products, gas money, etc., because that is unhinged. Of course, he would pursue you aggressively.

He gets to have arm candy that is more financially stable than him. I'm in his age range, and no offense, would not date someone that much younger.

But if I did, I would be paying for a way higher percentage of things.

Not because I'm rich, but because I've had 10 additional years to get my shit together and be stable as opposed to asking someone just getting on their feet to waste their funds.

Lastly, someone says, WTF, I've spent money on plenty of dates in my past and regretted it, but I've never had the audacity to demand reimbursement even when things didn't go where I wanted.

If anything, you underreacted. I would have laughed in his face and told him to eat shit.

Like, how are you going to ask someone on dates, then demand your money back, especially after you have paid for some and even gotten him stuff as well.

Maybe don't spend so much money on the dates if you can't afford it. Like, hello, he's lucky as hell you're a nice person because this is just insane to me.

Definitely never go on a date with this fool ever again. These commenters are

like, They have a gun at the screen. I feel like this is all the same girl.

It's it's always it's always fun to me when a comment you can tell they have experience with something and they're like letting it out there.

Well, guess what?

Update!

That's right.

Do the thing, do the thing we need to do. No!

We discussed being a little more theatrical with the updates, but not that.

Do the thing!

No!

We discussed doing a little dance.

Update. Hi, everyone.
Thanks so much for all the responses on my last post. It blew up and I appreciate all the feedback.

I wanted to add some details that didn't make it into the original post since a lot of people were asking for clarification. Here we go.
We need this.

In the spreadsheet he sent me, I'm in the green column. And no, it's not cigars/slash/sigs for me, lol.
He took me to a nicer spot called In Between Days for a more intimate dinner.

The other man on the spreadsheet asking for payment was actually his twin, who sometimes joins us on double dates, but usually picks up the check himself. I always offer to pay my share.

Money is genuinely stressful for me and I hate the feeling of owing anyone. Yes.
He always refused in the moment, then turned around and invoiced me formally later. No.

I would have much rather just paid my own way from the start than have any of this happen. Okay, that changes my perspective.
Me too. I'm like, don't that's lying.
Yeah. Don't lie.
That's lying.

That to me, that to me is I'm not one of the commenters. I'm like, get him, go, run.

Holy shit. I don't like that.
Don't lie. Don't lie.
Come on, stop. Psycho behavior.
Do not, don't do do that.

Now that's manipulative. Now it's.
Go out with the twin. It's now him wanting her to owe me.

Go out with the twin.

If I had a situation with someone and I was like, oh, I can split this. And they go, no, no, no, I've got it.

And then they asked me days, weeks later, like, hey, you owe me for that? I'd be like, I'm never talking to you again. Yeah, no, I cannot.
I've never seen you like that. That was so funny.

That's so, that's. That's lying to us.

I hate it. It's different to be like, it's different to be like in a group and be like, I'll put my card down, just Venmo me, or even like, I'll put my card down and just Venmo me.

The Venmo situation is a very common one, right? Like, and I agree, but that, that is still agreeing in the moment that we're splitting it. Yes.
We just have a different mode of doing it.

I mean, it's all, it's really hard to give a fine rule on this stuff now, but I will say, even if they asked me out, I am always going for my wallet. Yeah.
Show intent.

But I am always assuming, like, I don't know.

I just feel like the culture is shifted like come on I don't know like yeah I just hate the feeling of I agree I hate the feeling of owing someone me too I hate

when someone feels like they owe me I'm very much like no you don't yeah please don't um but it seems like he kind of wants that yeah one more quick update I sent him the last payment and then blocked him and deleted his contact nice I didn't want him to hold anything over me it sucks that I paid him but at least it's over thanks to everyone who weighed in good for her good for her I think that was a good good call.

Yep.

That was a clear red flag. Okay, our next story.
This comes from Am I the Asshole? Am I the asshole if I report the couples therapist that married my ex-boyfriend a year after our sessions with her?

What?

Okay. Am I

the asshole?

Hold on, hold on, hold on. This is wilder than I

can comprehend.

Am I the asshole if I report the couples therapist that married my ex-boyfriend a year after our sessions with her? No. So they had a a couples therapist.
Oh,

I'm seeing him inefficient. No, no.
They didn't, she didn't marry. Her ex-boyfriend and her were seeing a couples therapist,

and then that couples therapist is now marrying her. Report! Report! Yeah, report! That is her.

Oh, my God. Did you honk? I reported.

In 2017, I, a 25-year-old woman, saw a couples therapist with my then-boyfriend, who was 36, after three sessions with with her.

I refused to return due to her blatant flirtatious behavior and extremely judgmental attitude toward me, which my ex-boyfriend called me delusional for pointing out.

She had told me that I seemed too immature, not ready for therapy or a serious relationship. The whole thing was focused on my ex-boyfriend and his complaints about me.

She never asked about my feelings or perspective in the relationship. We broke up about two months after the sessions, but I stayed living with my ex-boyfriend until November.

Once after I moved out, I had to return to our old apartment to get mail. This was in December.
And that was the first time I saw the therapist with my ex. No.

They happened to be getting ready to go out on his motorcycle and were both wearing full-face motorcycle helmets. Oh, give it up.

But I knew from her body type and hair that it was her, along with my instincts, which suspected something was going on the whole time. But nevertheless, I moved on with my life.

I just found out yesterday my ex got married. due to a friend telling me about a photo he posted on Facebook.
The photo was of him and my ex-therapist celebrating their one-year wedding anniversary.

I found her Facebook with the name change, and sure enough, they got married September of 2018, or earlier. That's just when she posted the wedding photos.

This was less than a year after the breakup with my ex and barely over a year after our sessions with her ended. I am considering filing a complaint with the American Counseling Association.

My friends and mental health counselors I know say I have enough evidence. I am not upset that my ex moved on.
So have I. I thank the universe every day that I am no longer with that narcissist.

However, I feel deeply disturbed to find out he married our therapist, especially remembering all the harmful stuff she said to me in the sessions, which, to be honest, really messed with my head.

I fear coming off as a bitter ex.

Look, I.

I think she should do it. Yeah, absolutely.
She should do it. 100%.
I don't know. I don't know what laws or regulations there are around therapists or couples therapists.

I don't believe that any of this should be allowed.

At the very least, like, oh, you know that this therapist actually caused you harm, right? Yes.

If you went to a doctor and it's like, oh, I found out years later that they actually injected me with poison, like legitimate arsenic.

It's like, oh, well, you should probably report that because it's them not doing their job. A therapist is supposed to like be there to like assess and she didn't do that at all.

It's, I'm, we've had other stories that are like this. I'm almost wondering if this was never a therapist.

Yeah, like, I'm like, do you even report report her? Is there someone to report her to? Because it feels a little bit more. Well, if she's a legitimate therapist, then

you do, but that's what I'm saying. But I'm like, is she even really a therapist? That's, yeah, I feel like that's a good thing.

Or was this, because we had a situation where people had a fake therapist or they had their friend who's a therapist set up sessions just to group gaslight someone.

So I'm like, we've already seen it before. Yeah.
So could this be that they were already having an affair and it was like, oh, let's do this to like.

If a therapist said, you're not ready for therapy, yeah, that's probably enough to report that. I'd go, and you're not a therapist.
Yeah, that's not a real thing. Like, no,

I'm ready for therapy at any time. Yeah, that's like a doctor being like, You break your leg

treatment, yeah, you break your leg, you go to the doctor, and he's like, You're not ready for a cast.

Your mind's not your mind's not in the game, dude. He's like, and I'm fucking your cast.

Eric laughed,

Eric.

Um, comments: Comments. Hi, I'm a therapist.
Please report her. Her behavior is...
Yeah, right. Perfect.

Every comment on this video should be, hi, I'm a therapist. I liked this video.
It's always

the crow scientist meme. Whenever you reference anything, there's going to be an expert in the comments.
There just always will be. Hi, I'm a therapist.
Please report her.

Her behavior is ridiculously unethical, and who knows what else she has done or if she even should be allowed to practice. Not the asshole times a million.

Someone said the normal rule is no dating patients within 12 months of the last encounter. Correct? Not sure if that's illegal or just an in-house rule.

Someone said, even if the marriage/slash relationship was a year after, I bet OP's fellas started banging this therapist after the first few meetings. Very unprofessional.

If I were OP, I wouldn't hesitate to report them. Are there any professional bodies that can prevent her practicing, though?

I don't know if they can be struck off like a surgeon or doctor who is guilty of malpractice. I'm sorry, there's something, there's a weird taste in my mouth where I don't,

you shouldn't be dating your therapist. Yeah, no, that's a hard lot.
Especially a couple's therapist who was like mediating.

He's supposed to be helping you like mend your relationship with this partner and then are dating them within a few years. Or like, just take a year.
It takes some time.

It feels like it happened at the jump. Yeah, she said before they even, before a year of them breaking up.
Oof.

They got married. It's like, I get it.
You can find love in a hopeless place, right? Like, like, what, like, what if you did fall in love, right? But, like, give it some space that's but

that paired with what she was saying to her yes i think it's like you need to report her because this is someone who is not taking their job seriously yeah they're taking advantage of their position and they will they harmed you like it it caused her like mental harm this person could harm someone else like they've shown that they're willing to do it so i think you need to report it um

update oh my god wow thank you everyone for your responses i realize that as the ex, it is pretty much impossible for it to not seem like I'm jealous/slash petty slash bitter, whatever you want to say.

However, it is also impossible to have sat in those sessions and then see your therapist and ex get married and have zero feelings about, regardless of having moved on. Please give me a break.

I'm human. Anyway, I have made my decision.
I am not going to participate in this post anymore, but I sincerely thank those of you that made meaningful contributions. Update number two.

Hey.

So one of my friends has basically taken it upon herself to investigate this therapist. I swear she should be in the FBI, LOL.

She found out that this is the third last name that this woman has practiced psychotherapy with. Under the first last name in 2014, she was charged with a DUI with property damage.

She also comes up on health grades with five one-star reviews and an overall three-star rating.

Essentially, what this new information does for me is confirm that she has been a shitty human being with shitty morals for quite some time.

There's no way this is the first time she has caused undue harm to a client. Therefore, I can say with certainty that I am reporting.
Yes. And that's the last update.
No. Sorry.

I hope that led somewhere. This is a rather, as of us recording this, this is a rather recent post.

So maybe something will come of it. Maybe by the time this airs, there's another update.
I want this to be like a limited series with Nicole Kidman. She's the therapist.

And you like, you side with her, but then you go, wait. You're crazy.
The protagonist is a little bit the enemy. It really sucks that, you know, therapists are also people.

So there's a lot of bad ones. Yeah.

That's always true. That's always unfortunately the situation.

And what sucks is then, you know, that becomes like a reason people use to go, well, I'm not going to go to therapy. I know.
I know someone who had a bad therapist. Like, there are bad therapists.

Yeah.

It is a process of like finding, but. I hate that there's like truly dangerous people out there taking advantage.
Like three last name changes. Yeah, red flag.

All right, let's move on. Our next story comes from Am I the Asshole?

Am I the Asshole for walking out on a double date my friend set up with him, his girlfriend, and a girl I had already rejected before? Oh,

no.

This is on the friends already. You gotta vet that shit.
No!

You need to do your FBI work. Bad friends.
Ooh.

I feel like I need to say this for this post not to be removed. This is not about the date, about relationships or something.
I want a judgment on me walking walking out of there. Okay.

Cast. Me, 25 male.
Joe, 26 male. Jane, 24 female.
To give you a little background to the situation, I met Jane through Joe's girlfriend at her birthday party last year.

At first, Jane was fun to talk to, but not even an hour later, Jane was really into me and tried really badly to hit on me during the party, which pretty much ruined my time there as the feeling was not mutual in the slightest bit.

Also, at the time, I was already with someone. So the first impression I got from Jane was that she was clingy, annoying, and just wouldn't stop bothering me.
Oh my god. Damn, dude.

Unfortunately for me, she became part of my larger friend group because she is part of Joe's girlfriend's friend group. That is a mouthful, sheesh.

And because me and Joe hang out a lot, and I am also friends with his girlfriend, I pretty much run into her at least twice a month. So the first time Jane asked me out was a month after that party.

I informed her I was with someone and not interested. She tried again two months later when I broke up with my then-girlfriend.
Again, I declined her advances and told her I was not interested.

I got into a new relationship not long after, but unfortunately, she and I broke up about two months ago. Since then, as you might have anticipated, Jane has asked me out again.
I said no, again.

Well, that brings us to this week. Everything has been opening up here.
This was written about 2020. And Joe has been trying to fix me up with a friend of his girlfriend and would not tell me who.

He is well aware of me having rejected Jane multiple times and the fact I am not interested in her. He knows this in detail.

After a lot of what he calls convincing and I call whining, I had no interest in dating anytime soon, I relented and decided to agree to this double date idea of his.

We agree on meeting at Joe's apartment and lo and behold, Joe, his girlfriend, and Jane are occupying the dinner table, obviously intending for my date to be Jane.

I honestly just got so damn angry that I couldn't even get a single word out, turned around and left.

I have been bombarded with texts and calls about how much of a douche I am and how terribly I hurt Jane and so on. And I am just like, I literally rejected her like three times.

I am not interested in her. You knew that.
Your girlfriend knew that. Our entire friend group has a running joke about Jane being obsessive for fuck's sake.
So literally everyone knows it.

So am I the asshole? No. No.

I don't think so.

Immediately, no. I think this is a good situation.
And I try not to say this too often. If the rules were reversed, it'd be like, oh my God, what's crazy? Like, what the hell?

This guy has asked you out three times. You keep rejecting him.
And now he just, your friend

set him up without telling you. You're right.
I think there's that feeling of like unsafeness. Whereas with a girl, it's like, oh, come on.
She's homeless. It's Jane.
Like, don't worry.

It's like, hey, man, like, I've rejected her three times. She's not listening to me.
And you're not owed my time or attention.

Yeah, that's, and it's, it's really more like he's, I think it's fair he's walking out on his friends being so disrespectful of him. That's what it is mainly.
It's just like, listen to me. Just

walk me out.

Yeah, they completely,

it's that thing of like, well, you don't know what's good for you. We know what's good for you.
It's like, come on, man. And there's one, there's one,

there's one part of that where that person could say that to him, but then to force it in front of him and put him in an awkward position.

Like, I even understand this person being upset with his friend being like, please give Jane another shot, like, and being like, please stop.

But then to just not even do that and just like literally force it. Yeah.

I've never had this type of situation happen.

It definitely happens for me in the gay community too. And people just waiting to take advantage of your boundaries.
They'll like stay around you just so that opportunity might arise.

Maybe if I have enough to drink or maybe if I'm like out on the right night, they'll get lucky or some shit.

Yeah. Or I struggle with like, if I don't have someone, I'm seeing.

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During that, another person,

like this OP, like was seeing somebody, and then that was, um, then they stopped seeing that person, and then Jane went back in again.

And sometimes I feel like people use people not being single as like a way. It's like sometimes you can just be said no to.

You don't always need an obstacle of a person does that make sense like like I feel like a lot of women their no is more powerful when they have a boyfriend rather than they're just no is a no and like I found that a lot where like sometimes I will be more respected if I say I'm in a relationship even if that's not true yeah because and then it gets someone to actually disarm rather than me just saying like oh I'm so sorry no yeah

I'll

I still cannot comprehend that people hear no and don't stop yeah I've never comprehended it

because for me, any sign of interest, and I know I, I go overboard where people don't say no, but I'm like, oh, but I'm inferring that they're, they're not interested.

And so I'm like, but as soon as I get like no, or that I, I feel they're not interested, I'm like, all right, like, I'm out. I'm fully out.
Yeah.

I'm fully out in a way that I'm like, if they, if like the ball's in their court, if they were like, hey, you know what, actually, I'm interested, I'd be like, okay.

But I'm not going to pursue in any sort of way. Not that I won't try to like be friends with someone that I don't see something, but romantically, I'm like, all right, I'm fully out.

There's also the aspect the friends are

atrocious. Yeah.

Because I do think, I think setting up friends with someone is a very kind, cool thing that people can do, but not someone that they've rejected multiple times. And that is.

And the whole friend group knows? Yeah, and makes jokes about it, but then does it? Uh-oh.

And I also don't like when friends set you up or when friends are setting someone up because it's convenient for them because it's like, oh, we're all in a friend group.

This will be, why can't you you make this work? It's so easy. Jane's our friend because she's friendly with my girlfriend.
This was disrespectful. This was disrespectful to him.

It was also disrespectful to Jane. I feel bad for Jane, too.
For them to do this because they know in her head going like, just try it again.

They're probably, they're probably reinforc I'm inferring here, they're probably reinforcing her.

She's probably going, oh, like, he rejected me, but I'm really into it. And they're like, you know what? Just like, give it some time.

He's this way. Whatever.
Like, they need to, if they are a really good friend, they need to be telling Jane, like, you need to stop. Yeah.
He's rejected you three times. Stop.
He's not into you.

As your friend, that's important. And then it's also as a friend being like respectful of your friend who's not into her and recognizing that.
They were so disrespectful to both of them.

And then they hurt both of them in the process. You guys ever been on double dates?

I'm trying to think. Oh, yes, I've been on one double date.

It was great. Yeah.

I've never been on a blind date. So I've never been set up in a way that's like, oh, it's a blind date.
No, that's, that seems hard.

I've only been set up with friends in that it's been fully transparent of like, oh, I have a friend who might be

like

a thing. I mean, my double date story that I can think of that makes me understand this a little bit more is I had like friends, two best friends that were dating.

And then their best friends was the person I was dating. Like it was kind of like a best friend group a little bit.

And there were times where I think when you're double dating your friends and everyone's dating in a friend group, you like want each relationship to be calibrated with the next.

Like I remember there was like a, oh, we want to go on a trip. And I, in my relationship, wasn't ready for a trip.
But our best friends in their relationship, they were ready for a trip.

And it was kind of like, oh, let's force this because it would be fun as a group, like kind of like dating as a committee rather than like just genuinely one-on-one and one-on-one.

But it's fun, right? And you're like, oh, we're all, this is like really fun. Yeah.
But I think sometimes it puts pressure on people.

Like it sounds like Jane was pressured by these friends because they were like, we can all be this fun group and all be partners and all do stuff together. And it will be really fun, which it is.

But then sometimes you lose sight of like, no, but by yourself, do you want to date Jane? No, then don't date Jane, you know?

Because what's worse is if you force a bad relationship and then you got that, that will destroy a friend group.

Fighting in front of everybody. Yeah, it's like, hey, hey, don't, don't make something like you want people to be genuinely happy.
Like, you should care.

You should want your friends to be living their best lives. Yeah.
You shouldn't force them to something they don't want. The verdict is not the asshole.
Yeah, no.

Comments, not the asshole, but your friend obviously is. Setting someone up with someone who rejected that person is cruel.
Not the fact that you turned around. I would honestly have done the same.

Someone said, you've made your feelings more than clear to Jane and your friend as well.

You had every right to leave as you had already rejected her three times and still she set herself up for rejection number four. You're not responsible for her hurt feelings at this point.

Your friend should have known better than to blindside you with a date with someone who he knows full well you have zero interest in.

Though if I might venture a guess, I'd say that the double date was 100% Jane's and your friend's girlfriend's idea, and your friend most likely just got pressured into convincing you to come.

OP said, even so, he is one of my best friends. He shouldn't be screwing me over like that.
Even if it was 100% their idea, I still blame Joe most.

Lastly, someone said, not the asshole, you definitely made the right call by leaving.

Jane is trying to force you into a relationship with her, and if you give her even the slightest implication that there may be a chance, she will continue pestering you with unwanted attention.

She needed this very clear message that you are not interested in even entertaining the idea of dating her. Her feelings towards you do not entitle her to a shot with you if you aren't interested.

And you already told her several times that you weren't. This is honestly really disgusting behavior on Joe and his girlfriend's part, and they should be apologizing to you.
Update.

Lot of them today.

Updating.

Yes, Shane. Yes.
Yes, Shane, top.

I float away.

At any rate, like I said, here goes. It turns out that some of the more pessimistic of you were right.

Jane was being obsessive and stalkerish, and it sort of all came tumbling down on her at that point. A week or so after I made my post, she decided to message me.

It came down to her not understanding why I was showing interest in her and then refused to date her. I never showed interest in her beyond basic friendliness.

A wall of text dedicated to thrashing my my previous relationships and calling them all sorts of names, specifically pointing out how I dated the wrong girls, and a weird rant about how everyone agreed me and her were meant to be, which just isn't the case.

Like I said in my previous post, there is a running joke in our friend group about how weird she is.

Now, you might think this is something that could be expected, something that just happens, an outlet for her of sorts, except she sent it from the wrong account.

See, I had become internet friends with a person in the past month or two. Me and her would game together, chat from time time to time, you know, the usual organic internet friend situation.

And the messages concerning our date were sent from this account. Turns out she had literally used this alias to infiltrate my internet friend group and keep tabs on me of sorts.

Obviously, this freaked me the fuck out. I took screenshots of what she had sent me and afterwards blocked all accounts that I knew now she was using.

I followed that up by sharing everything in our friend Discord and in our friend WhatsApp group so everyone could see which resulted in her being kicked from both.

And I later got a call from Joe full-on apologetic telling me he had no idea and he knew he shouldn't have done it but that his girlfriend was being pressured by Jane turned out Jane had literally been bitching at her for months to arrange something like this and she finally caved again creepy stuff and I told him that I needed some time as he really fucked me over big time and I didn't trust him anymore as a result while Jane has been shunned by all friends she still contacted me twice once to apologize which quickly turned into weird shit where she started talking about us she seemed convinced there is an us, and I am interested.

The second time she contacted me was just to curse at me, both from random accounts. I'm not sure where to go from here, and I am still pretty shook up.

This, okay, I wanted to say that I, my instincts were right on the money.

I didn't say anything, but I was like, it feels as soon as she said, as soon as he said that Jane was obsessive, I was like, it feels like she's like masterminding this shit.

Like, she's got all the friends in place, like fucking chess master or some shit. Like, Jafar is what it's giving.
It's like, I'm gonna

i'm gonna get in charge of this whole kingdom so i can marry the princess yeah

whoa dude the other the the the catfish side part yeah update side plot catfish side plot part update side plot the red flag of someone not taking a hint is really scary because it's like how far can they not take a hint it's literally like i can win and yeah can't win love

and it's also giving it's my way or the highway like i want this i don't care if you don't I'm going to find a way, even if I have to change my damn name. That's crazy.

And I don't like saying the C word. It's kind of, it kind of feels like, we can finally be together.
We did it.

It's me, Jane. It's, well, it's, it's dangerous.
It's dangerous behavior. And it's, it, it is really scary when someone thinks they know what's best for you.
Yeah.

And they go, well, no, I see us, but you don't see it. It's like, no.

You said we don't have chemistry, but we work so well together in Overwatch. Yeah.
We have so many team wins.

It's like username Jafar.

Not Jane.

Not Jane.

Jane Farr. Yeah.
Jane Farr. Hot girl that isn't Jane.

I have to tell you something. My name's not really Bane.

It's Jane.

Yeah,

I think we've read so many stories that have to do with like catfishing. Yeah.
Catfishing blows my mind.

It is terrifying, but it's also extremely fascinating. I don't know if

real-time logic can be applied to it.

I think it is,

I mean this little, like it's a level of delusion that

I don't think I can understand. I mean, to me,

if I really, really think about it, I think it's like this girl, Jane, like wanted this level of connection with this person so badly that they didn't even care if they had to change themselves.

Like, or they had to like, like, hide behind.

I mean, a lot of people hide behind something else in order to connect because she was getting the vibe, obviously, that she wasn't a connect, but she was like, but I know I can connect with this person.

What's, what's really scary about it too is I feel like in all these situations where I read about this, I don't believe for a second that Jane actually knows who he is. No.
It's they're in love.

They're obsessed with an idea that doesn't even exist. Yeah.

So I don't know.

It's really, really unhealthy. There's something in my head that's like, okay, so I'm thinking in the head of someone catfishing.
It's like, oh, well, they'll get to know me, the real me,

so that the physical thing doesn't really matter. Yeah, like I think like, honestly, if you track it all the way back, it's a deep need to connect.
And they will do that at any cost.

And they're not really thinking about the last act where they have to kind of then be the person they are. It's probably addictive too.

It probably gives them a rush that they feel like they have what they want.

It's hard to just walk away from that. Attention.
Yeah. All right.

Our next story comes from relationship advice. My girlfriend, who's 21, and my brother, who's 20, are soulmates.
Okay. Okay.
Okay. Am I the asshole? Am I a jerk?

I'm stealing money. Am I the asshole?

And I just killed this.

My girlfriend, who's 21 and I, 21-year-old man, have been dating for about seven months now. We both used to work at the same restaurant and I asked her out.

I've always felt like we were very different people, but that's what I liked about our relationship.

I feel like I'm always learning something by being around her and trying my best to indulge in her interests.

Three months ago, I introduced her to my family and they all seemed to like her, especially my brother, who's 20.

I didn't really think much of it and was happy to see them get along since I'm very close to my brother, but I've realized over time that they just fit way better better with each other.

They both have the same interests in movies, books, music, sports, foods, you name it.

Although my girlfriend was hesitant at first about it, I encouraged her to go do things alone with my brother if it wasn't something I was really into. And they both had a great time.

And I know just having the same hobbies sounds trivial, but it's also their personalities.

They're both very free-spirited and adventurous, and I can't help but notice that they look so much happier with each other than with me.

Sometimes I feel really out of place around them, as if I'm not supposed to be there. But I swear this is not out of jealousy.
I just genuinely think they're better for each other.

I love both of them, and if this is what makes them happy, then I'd rather they date each other and let me move out of their way.

I'm not exactly sure how to execute this or talk about this with either of them, though. How do I go about setting them up?

Wait, wait. This is like...

This is. I don't know how to respond to this.
My dad is Philip Schuyler. The man is loaded.
And that's what it's giving.

Samuelton, yeah, setting it up with oh, go with this instead. Here's my yeah, okay, wow, you like me, here's my sibling.
What?

Yeah, it's giving sampletons. This does feel like a Jane Austen situation.
It's like, well, actually, my sister would be far more suited to you. Yeah.
Like,

what the hell? But usually in media, when we see this, I feel like

it's the sister that's like, I kind of like the brother. It's weird that the person who's dating is like, I know I'm not a fit, and I know who is.
It's just, it's, you don't see this a lot. No.

He wanted them to hang out one-on-one. There's a lot at play here.
I mean, nothing, nothing bad has been done

here. So it's like interesting, but

one could maybe argue like this feels like self-sabotage a little bit. Yeah.
One could maybe argue that.

It could be that. It also could just be like, like, maybe he just needs to get out of this relationship.
And not set her. Like, maybe he just needs to just like step away.

Yeah, it's also, it's also like, these are two people he cares about. So he, he loves both of these people.
He's like, oh, you're both such great people. Oh, you'd be better off together.

It's like, well, but if she doesn't want that, I don't know.

There's a part of me that's like, it's a little disrespectful in the sense that he's assuming what's best for these people who are both telling him not the same thing. Yeah.

I'm fascinated by this.

Some comments. Your brother shaped you as well.
You apparently connect well with people like him and like your girlfriend.

So it's no wonder she's very much into you and possibly would be less into your brother than you think. Someone said, Whoa, slow down.
Your girlfriend probably has zero interest in your brother.

People don't necessarily like being with someone like them. My husband is my polar opposite, thank God.
And I would be absolutely miserable dating someone like me. I'm too annoying.

Someone said, She might not want to date your brother. If you're not into her, break up.
If she likes your brother, she'll pursue in her own time.

But if my boyfriend came to me suggesting this, I'd run a mile. Yeah, there's, there's, I don't think there's any situation where he's going to make this happen

that's not going to just destroy everything. Yeah.
Like you either need to say, oh, this,

my girlfriend and I aren't right for each other and I'm going to break up, or you stay with it.

There's no, you can't set someone up with your brother, like the person you've been dating for seven months. Seven months is a long time.
Yeah. Seven months is a long time.
Way too long to be setting.

Like if someone, if you went on a couple dates with someone, and then you're like, oh, you know what? Like,

I don't know. I don't know.
It's just, it's, there's no situation of this where I'm like, hey, you know what? This is a logical thing to do. I feel like my brother should be here instead of me.

There's billions of people in the planet. Like, it's not just about being exactly the same as someone.

There have been people. Okay, hold on, hold on, let me, let me, hold on.

There have been people where I would go on dates with them and on like the second or third date, I'd be like, you, you need to meet my friend because

this happens. yeah.
You need to date my friend, not me. I know exactly, like you guys would be such a good match.

And then I'll like, not, I won't, I will figure out a way to make them be at the same party. And then they end up meeting and then I'll do whatever.
Sure. But that's not my sibling.

And it's not after. But there's also a little bit of you recognizing that.
the connection is maybe not perfect for you as well.

This feels like he just keeps highlighting and encouraging his, the boy, the brother's relationship, where it's like, it's not not about him.

Like, I almost wonder if, and this might be too much, and this might be to me being theatrical, but like, is this relationship with his brother, does his brother, does he always think his brother is more deserving?

Is that the household he grew up in? Yeah, like, is this just a pattern? You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I'm, I, I could be, there's a million possibilities.
This

just never read anything. Update me.
There's no update.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

it's not fair but a lot of them have updates and then some don't we were reading this in july and this was posted in july this was very recent so we might get an update eventually but it's as of now no

this is what they're like happily married but also i do believe in a universe maybe i've watched too many like rom-coms i agree where someone's like you're perfect for my brother i can't stop thinking this.

And then that's the meet cute. I agree completely.
I feel like I've seen it in a million movies too. Or Or just like a weird way of meeting someone.
This is like assuming a lot on behalf of her.

It's really assuming, it's assuming what's best for people. And that is, sometimes I think it's very disrespectful.
Yeah, especially if it's on the next one.

You don't know what's, you can't figure out what's right for you. You can't see that this is perfect for you.
They're also 20 and 21. And like,

you might be perfect for each other now. In five years, you're going to be completely different.
Yeah, is all

that. Like, don't do all this.
Like, do not do all this. And if this is really, I think he needs to examine it.

It's like, are you feeling insecure about your relationship because it's also okay to break up for any reason yeah so desire but also yeah he needs to I think he's just thinking how great they are and he's he did not give us any details about their own I worry he's just insecure of how great of a relationship they have or how much they're laughing or something and he's in his own way I think he seems hung up that they have like similar interests in movies and certain activities yeah and that's like the end all be all and I'm like I could see myself when I was 20 thinking that's the end all be all relationship, but I'm like, not my case at 33.

Yeah, like that commenter. Very different.
Like that commenter who was like, my, my partner is so opposite to me.

I do think I have fallen into like seeing a person I like or a person I'm dating really connect with somebody else in a way that I can't connect with them on.

And I go, well, that must be superior, right? Like, oh, but sometimes that's not what people choose, right? Like sometimes people like opposites. Sometimes they don't want their exact person.

So like, I think that is a very 20-year-old way of thinking to be like, we date who you are. Like, it isn't.
I think also it's a danger. I don't,

I have to assume this a little bit, but like the internet is constantly telling us how things should be, right? Like so many people out there are like, this is how a relationship works.

This is how this works. The problem is every relationship is completely fucking unique.
Yeah. And so

what might seem wrong to you might, if it's working, it's working. Yeah.
That's kind of sometimes your only barometer. There's not one way to do this.
No, absolutely not.

it's if both people are happy if they're both like hey we we feel strong about our connection this is working then it's working yeah i don't there's yeah i don't know it'd be so nice if there was very specific boxes yeah but there's not but um i don't know this i i

i think this is a very fascinating headspace this guy is in i

i think things will be different in a couple years i don't think this relationship is going to last just because I have a hard time believing 20 relationships when people are in their like just 19, 20, like I'm like, yeah, it's probably going to be short-lived.

It's not going to be forever. Maybe it'll last forever.
I don't know. Can, but

I don't know. I think he needs some space for his brother, too.
I think he needs to do some introspection. Yeah.
I think he needs to like eat, pray, love.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What an old reference. I bet people don't even know anymore.
Who's Julia Roberts? Anyways, it's time for our final story. And this one's a throwback.
This is a 10-year-old story. Whoa.

Feels like a parable parable now. I know.

2015. Whoa.

That's crazy that that was 10 years ago.

The Iron Age. This comes from relationships.
I, a 21-year-old woman, suspect that I might be my boyfriend of two years side chick.

Two years. Two years.
Two years. Some details.
Tim and I have been together for two years. We are both foreigners living in Europe.
Names have been changed.

Tim is a very private person in general, and so maybe some of the strangeness stems from that. In order to explain everything, I think I have to start at the very beginning.

Tim and I met at an event for native English speakers after each of us having lived here for a year. We hit it off immediately.

Later that week, we went to a pub crawl with other people from the event and hooked up.

Only a few days later, we decided to meet up again, but when trying to decide if it'd be at my place or his, he told me it has to be mine, and he'll explain why later.

For the record, I do not live in an ideal situation to be having people, much less men, over, and he was completely aware of the situation.

He came over and told me that he is currently still living with his ex-girlfriend of about three months.

He had his own room and everything, but because he had prepaid for six months of rent to lend her some money, he was staying there. Okay, so yeah, I know this is weird, but who am I to judge?

He says they are definitely broken up and I'm just sleeping with the guy right now, so whatever. A few weeks go by and we decide to start dating exclusively and officially.

He says that he's just living with his ex, who will name Stephanie, temporarily for another three months, and then he'll find another place.

Alright, so it's a weird situation, but I trust him, and he'll leave in three months. He complains about having to live with her and says it's uncomfortable.

He also told me why they broke up, which was because he caught her cheating on him with her ex at a party. So I'm not worried about them getting back together.

I'm not 100% comfortable with the situation, but it's manageable. A few months pass and Tim doesn't move out.

He says he's now got his own little apartment in the same house, but that it's so much better for him to stay there because he doesn't have to buy any furniture and the rent is cheap.

Remember, we're foreigners, so buying a ton of furniture that you're just going to have to sell when you leave is annoying.

He eventually starts saying that he's going to bring me over there to show me that they're living separately and whatnot. Long story short, that never happened.

Every time I asked him to ask her about it, he'd say that she'd get upset and blah blah blah. Apparently she was aware that he had a girlfriend but didn't like it and wanted to get back together.

After a year he finally moved out, not into his own place, but into the spare room at his buddy's house.

I had been to his buddy's place before, only once though, and that that had been the one and only time I've ever met one of his non-mutual friends, which is suspicious and strange on its own.

I didn't help with the move, not for lack of trying, so no, I never saw him move his stuff there. Again, this was a temporary solution until he found a place of his own.

Through various circumstances, company being bought out, which led to job insecurity, him being extremely picky about finding an apartment, he has still yet to move into a place of his own.

It's been about 10 months since he moved into his buddy's place, and I've yet to be be there, even though I've asked many times.

He always says yes, but then later says that he doesn't want to intrude or be a nuisance, etc. So essentially, I've never seen where he lives.

Those things, along with me never having met his friends or Skyped with his family, are the underlying basis for my suspicion. But here's where the real stuff comes.

Oh, this is not even the real stuff. Wow, it's time for the real stuff.
Yeah, you need to wrap it in here.

Last night when I couldn't sleep, I went Facebook stalking. I searched for tagged photos of Tim because I know he's weird about his Facebook.
Let's fucking go.

And doesn't let tagged pictures and posts show up on his wall. While going through the pictures, I found three pictures of him while he was visiting home over the summer.

In each of the three pictures, there is a girl who is untagged and sitting next to Tim. In two of the three pictures, his arm is around her.
No.

But the pictures are more posed and everyone's arms are around each other. Wow.
Two of the pictures are with friends, so I figured she's a friend from home, no big deal.

In one picture, though, they are with his sister and her husband and daughter. So a much more intimate picture.
I do not know what Stephanie looks like, and she doesn't have Facebook.

I can't find a picture of her through Googling, but I think this girl might be her. I don't know exactly.

I don't know exactly why I think that, but I do. I did some more Google research and found Stephanie's grandmother's obituary.
She died in January.

So after Tim would have moved out of the house and definitely after they should have been broken up. And yet on the obituary, his name is listed next to Stephanie's as members of the family.

I do know that he was close to the family. They do that in obituaries?

Sorry? Yeah, it's like so-and-so survived by

her boyfriend? Her boyfriend's listed, which means he's probably married to her and that he's literally in the family. I don't think a boyfriend would be listed.
No.

Wait, a fair caught via obituary is wild.

Sorry, keep reading.

That's why the grandma died.

She's like, I know how to

blow this up.

Make sure he's in the room. I'm going to do this.

She could just do that. Mine was a.
No, she just could do that. Keep it on the record.

I do know that he was close to the grandmother and that she left him stuff in her will, but still, I'm suspicious.

My ex-girlfriend's grandmother left me in the will. It's like

ex-girlfriend. He has somebody else.
If what I suspect is true, that means that he was able to hide this from me and her for two years, which is honestly just impressive. Wow.

It doesn't seem like he did a good job.

I don't think it was that impressive. But he removed the tags.
He removed the tags. And in 2015, that was pretty hard work.

Right now, though, I'm stuck.

I don't want to bring up my relatively weak evidence with him until I can be sure because he'll just have an excuse and I'll just accept it because I want to trust him and be with him.

I don't know how to get any more proof that the girl in the pictures is Stephanie or how to know for sure one way or the other. So that's where I'd like advice.

I'm not going to break up with him without knowing 100% because I honestly do love him, but I don't know how I can know 100%.

Any advice or help is appreciated, although please be constructive. Okay.

Oh,

look, she's young, she's young, and I also know like we do this to ourselves where we convince ourselves of things. Yeah.

But

in a way, she did the right thing of like writing this out in an anonymous way. So she's writing it out, which is probably good to just like see it on page.

And then to like get other people's perspectives on just like, hey, these things in a vacuum, would you be suspicious? All these comments. I already know.
I've never seen where he lives.

I don't know how people can go that long.

I understand you might not have a great situation to be like, oh, you can't stay over. It's like, but can I still see your space? Like, can I still see it?

Yeah, I go back to holidays too with these things. Like, I wonder where he was at.
You know, like, like when people, you know, yeah.

All of it combined is a lot where it's like two years and I've not even Skyped with your family.

Like, I've not talked to any of your family two years and I've not met any of your like friends besides like just our mutual friends two years. And it's like all these things.
Yeah.

It's like, yeah, I understand where she's coming from where she's like, I, I, I'm scared if I I just talk to him about it He's gonna walk he's gonna

he's gonna like somehow find a way around it But like I hope to God she just talks to him. Yeah.
Does she or does she do something else and find another what do they do all the time?

I they I don't know they hang at her place. No

look not everybody goes to cold play concerts

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This one's pretty obvious, though i mean but i i know very well what it's like to like see various obvious i to see obvious writing on the wall and and be like oh well i don't know what they meant by that yeah like that's probably it's probably fine well we have comments

here let me help you out it's really weird that in two years i have never seen where you live it's getting to the point where i feel like you have something to hide i need to see your house today this is important to me if you can't do that i don't think i'm comfortable continuing this relationship And then, if he doesn't take you to his house, you show up at Stephanie's front door and say, hey, this is really weird, but please hear me out for a minute.

How do you and Tim know each other? And if she says anything other than we broke up, like we're dating, why, or he's my husband, you tell her everything.

Someone said, it's actually easier to tell if a very private person truly cares about you because they bring you closer into their life than they do others.

This guy hasn't brought you into his life at all.

Someone said, even if he wasn't with another woman, which he probably is, I would not be happy knowing that for two years he has not allowed you to see where he lives or meet his friends or family.

That's not normal. That's what you do when you don't want anyone to know about your relationship.
That either means he's cheating with you or he's embarrassed by you. Neither of those is acceptable.

Yeah,

I think none of this behavior should be tolerated, even if he's not cheating. Yeah.
It's like,

this is not going anywhere, though.

Update. Ah, yes, Shane.
He looks so sad. I was.
We got, like, I really needed to know. It's like the worst when you're like so excited for an update.
And he goes, comments. Yeah.

Comments.

Do you have predictions?

He's married. He's got to be married.
Oh.

God.

Oof.

As many people suggested I do, I started with a conversation with Tim, where I made very, very clear how much the whole situation bothered me and why it was an issue for me.

I tried to show him things from my perspective and tried to make him understand why I was so upset. He said he understood and apologized profusely.
He cried and I cried.

He said it was never his intention to hurt me and that he hadn't realized this had been such a large issue for me and that he had been selfish about it.

He said it was all going to change and that I would meet his friends and see where he's staying and get to Skype with his family, etc., etc. Oh.

He said I was the most important part of his life here and that he can't imagine his life without me in it.

He said he wants to find an apartment for us to live together and that when I'm done with school, he wants to go back home together for good.

He also told me that the girl in the pictures was an old family friend and that he was in the obituary because he still is close with the family and they still wish I was part of the family.

I decided to wait and see if he actually held up his end of things this time. And so we made up and all was well.

What I didn't mention is that during my snooping phase before this conversation, I found the phone number to the landline where Stephanie lives and decided to give it a call asking for Tim.

Landline 2015.

Stephanie's dad answered and when I asked for Tim, he told me to call his cell phone because this was the landline. So not exactly helpful.

Before you guys freak out about the dad thing, the house is like a duplex where the parents have their own half and Stephanie has her own half. This is not uncommon in small villages here.

A couple days after Tim and I talked, he texted me asking if I had called Stephanie's house asking for him. I decided not to lie and admitted it.

He said that she texted him saying that some girl with an accent had called the house asking for him and he immediately thought that it must have been me.

I explained that I did it because I felt desperate for answers and just wanted to know what was going on. I also told him that it was inconclusive.

He got very upset and said I had betrayed his trust and that I was acting like an insane person. He isn't exactly wrong about that part.

But I explained that I felt forced to take such actions because I felt like I was never going to get any answers any other way.

I apologized for the invasion of privacy and for bothering Stephanie and her family.

After a few days, he calmed down and forgave me, saying, saying, However, that this may push back meeting his friends because he told them what happened and they were pissed that I would treat him that way.

No,

no, no, I waited a few weeks to see if anything would change, and unsurprisingly, it did not.

So, this past weekend, he got very drunk one night, and I was able to open his phone with his fingerprint while he was sleeping. No,

the home button, the home button. Let's go!

Let's open it!

Check his phone! Check his phone! Check his phone.

Okay.

I found texts from Stephanie from the day before talking about what they should make for dinner that night. He told me he was out of town for work that night.

I found lots of hearts and I love yous and even him using the same pet names for her as he does for me. No, not the pet names, Shane.

Disgusting.

That's disgusting. Everyone needs to take a cold shower.
I hate it. He told her he was was going out of town this weekend for work and how much he'd missed her.

I looked through the past few weeks of messages between them and saw that he had sent her quite a few of the same pictures that he had sent me.

He had invited her to have a glass of wine with his buddy and her girlfriend.

He picked her up from work multiple times and there were lots of conversations about who was making dinner that night and what they should eat.

I went back and looked for dates where I knew he had slept over with me and he had always told her he was crashing at a friend's place or out of town for work or something along those lines.

I also found a group text message titled Family that included Tim, his sister, his mom, and Stephanie.

I looked at pictures of Stephanie that she had sent him and was able to very obviously see that it was her in the pictures that I found on Facebook. So you guys were right.

For the last two years, he's been living with her and seeing me on the side.

All the while telling me how much he loves and admires me and how we're going to have a future together. I have been duped and taken advantage of, and I feel like a complete idiot because of it.

I haven't talked to him yet, but when he comes over later in the week, I plan to tell him that I know everything. I also plan to tell him that he is a complete asshole.

In my ideal conversation, he'd explain to me why he did this and what the fuck he was thinking during all this, but I am pretty sure those are just things that I'll never know or understand.

Obviously, I will break up with him. I also plan on contacting Stephanie with a letter telling my side of the story.

I will give her dates that I know he spent the night with me so that she can cross-check them with dates that he did not come home.

I also plan to include a USB stick with pictures of Tim and me from the last two years and screenshots of some of our conversations from the last couple months. USB stick, 2015.
Yeah.

I can't make her believe me, but I want to at least do my best for her. I feel like I owe it to her as a fellow human being to let her know what kind of man she's been with for the last four years.

I am open to absolutely any advice on my plan and on how to move forward from this. I won't lie, I feel so lost and so helpless right now.

By breaking up with Tim, I'm losing a huge part of my life in this country, and I'm definitely going to be feeling this hole for a while. So any help is appreciated.

Thank you guys so much for listening And sorry, this is long as fuck. I got carried away.
No, you didn't, girl. We want

he got carried away, girl. Yeah.
For two years.

Obituary. When you get the flip side, and because you're like, oh, he's being so disrespectful to you.

And then you get the flip side of like, oh, and you're also being so disrespectful to someone else. Yes.
That's so. Ah, you, you like, get, you, like, oh, I now know you're so bad.

And then you get the like, oh, and you're even

worse than that. You're double bad.
You're double bad.

Update. No.
Number two. I need to know what happens.

So I took your advice and did not try to have a conversation with Tim. I think that's good.
I think I was like, you need to conversation with him. Wait, why is that? Oh, Stephanie.
Trust him.

Stephanie first. Because there's no mending this, right? And I don't think you owe him respect.
And you mean to get on the same page with Stephanie. Stephanie first.
Yeah.

It's Stephanie first. Stack your bag second.

Gun later. No.

How to get away from that. Murder later.

Because Because you can't trust him at all, right? Yeah. So if you tell him first, you don't know what he's going to do.
And you tell me that. It becomes a race.
He's well versed in manipulation.

Yes, he's low-key. He's untagging every photo.

I realized that since he was so successfully able to manipulate me for two years, having one last conversation with him was bound to end up with me doubting my findings and perhaps my sanity. Yeah.

I wrote Stephanie a three-page letter detailing the relationship that Tim and I have had over the past two years, making clear that it was serious and not just a fling.

I mentioned dates and events that most people would not have known about, and I included the intricate lies and backstory that he had told me.

I included a list of dates from the last two months that he spent the night with me and encouraged her to cross-check them with nights that he wasn't at home.

I printed out a few photos of us as a quick, visible proof, and I included the rest of the photos on a USB stick in the letter.

The stick also contains screenshots of any particularly incriminating conversations that we've had over the last few months.

I scanned postcards that he had sent me from various vacations and included those as well.

For safe measure, I also included a copy of the letter in case the hard copy went somehow mysteriously missing.

I gave her my email address and phone number and asked her to contact me if she wanted to. On Wednesday night, I had someone drive me to where she lives.

If Tim was there, I would just have confirmations that he actually lives there and we'd leave. If he wasn't there, I'd ring the doorbell and hand her the letter personally.
Yes.

We drove the 45 kilometers and Tim was sitting there in the living room on his laptop. It was obvious he lived there.
She was nowhere to be seen. His and her names were on the mailbox.

I called to see if he'd pick up and he ignored the call. On the mailbox? Why didn't you go before if you were so suspicious? Not to put the blame on the victim, but you just go look.
She trusted him.

That's funny. She trusted him.
On Thursday morning, I mailed the letter. I ensured that it was registered post.
In order to receive the letter, she'd have to show her ID and sign for it.

On Friday, the letter arrived. She was not home, so she received a notification to go pick the letter up at the post office.

On Saturday morning, she picked it up, and I got an email of the receipt with her signature on it.

Throughout all of this, I conversed normally with Tim and made excuses as to why he couldn't come over during the week so as to not tip him off to anything.

He stopped talking to me about 20 minutes after she picked up the letter Saturday morning, and I have not heard from him since. He has, however, defriended me and my family on Facebook.

I have not heard from Stephanie either. So now it's really over.

I hope with all my heart that he was not able to lie and manipulate his way out of the situation with her, but I will probably never know. I do not expect to hear from him again.

I feel very lonely, taken advantage of, and beaten down. I am going to do my best to try to come out of this situation without trust issues and without being cynical and jaded.

I am seeking therapy to make sure I don't slip into depression. For now, I need to find ways to distract myself and fill up any free time.

Hopefully she's doing well. Now it's been 10 years.

So she's hopefully in a completely different place in life and way better.

I'm upset that Stephanie didn't even reach out. I know.
I know it's a lot, but like give the girl, give the poor girl some closure. I know.
But OP did everything she could.

The signing of the letter was brilliant, like to make sure that

was sick as hell. That's a good way to do it.
It's a good way to do it. And

I guess you can do it in a way that you don't give too much of your information, like socials or whatever. But she's going to find that she can.
I mean, she did everything she could. Yeah.

20 minutes after the letter signing is when he stops. Like, I'm picturing they were texting all day, and then 20 minutes, he just stops responding.
Just defended her and

Facebook. That has to be really heartbreaking because she knows he's cheating on her.
He knows that he's married, but to just be like, oh, and he just is in a blip. He can't even own it to it.

He's gone. He's just, but it's like, oh, this was never anything for him.
That's the thing. Like, you know what I mean? Like, to be fully just ghosted, gone.
Yeah.

It's like, oh, he didn't care about you.

I feel really, really bad for her, but there is also the aspect of like, like, hey, you're really young. People go through these types of situations.
You're not the only person to be

tricked like this, to be manipulated like this. That is a very common experience, actually.

And to learn so much from it at 21, like, it's, I don't, I would have a hard time believing someone's going to be able to pull something like this on her again. Yeah.

You know, hopefully she's, she's grown from it. Yeah.
You know, hopefully she's now a very strong, powerful, awesome 30-year-old

person.

But, anyways,

thank you both for being here. There's not another update.
Not another update.

Healing is the update. Healing is the update.

But thank you both for hanging with me. Thanks for having us.
Yeah.

And thank you all for watching. Let us know what other themes and subreddits you want us to cover on this show.
And we will see you next Saturday. Goodbye.
Okay, do it now. No.

What?

It's honestly, take your pancakes out and check his phone. Check his phone.

I can't condone that.

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