Goo Goo Dolls - Iris

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made.

I'm Rishikesh Hirway.

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Sutter Health.

Whether it's prenatal care or post-menopausal guidance, Sutter's team of OBGYN's doctors and nurses are dedicated to building long-term relationships for lifelong care.

With personalized care plans for every patient, it's their commitment to supporting supporting every woman at every stage of her life.

Learn more at Sutterhealth.org.

Song Exploder is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

You chose to hit play on this podcast today, Smart Choice, make another Smart Choice with auto quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once.

Try it at progressive.com.

Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates.

Not available in all states or situations.

Prices vary based on how you buy.

This episode contains explicit language.

Goo Goo Dolls formed in 1986 in Buffalo, New York, and by the time 1998 rolled around, they'd already had a pretty successful career.

They'd released five albums and one of their songs, Name, from 1995, had become a top 10 hit.

But things really changed for them when they made the song Iris.

It originally came out on the soundtrack for the movie City of Angels, which came out in 1998 and starred Nicholas Cage and Meg Ryan.

Iris spent a record-breaking 18 weeks at number one on the radio and became one of the best-selling songs of all time, with over 14 million copies sold and over 4.5 billion streams.

So, for this episode, John Resnick of Google Dolls came over to my place and he told me about how he wrote the song.

He told me how the Grammy waning producer Rob Covallo helped them expand their vision and how the version of the song in the movie isn't actually the version that everybody knows.

And I don't want the world to see me,

cause I don't think that they'd understand.

When everything's made to be broken,

I just want you to know who I am.

My name is John Resnick.

And who else is in the band with you?

Robbie Takeak.

It's just me and him.

We are the band, and Robbie and I make the records.

And how did you two first meet?

Oh, I met him in college when I was 19, and we were playing hardcore music.

And how did it go from you guys playing hardcore to the sound that it became?

Because that's a pretty big shift.

Yeah, I think a lot of it had to do with being exposed to a lot of different music that I'd never really heard before.

And

also, you know, when you play in a hardcore band, there's no girls there.

And, you know, we forgot.

Rule number one.

Why do you play in a band?

You know, well, you know,

to meet girls.

Why?

Because I suck at sports.

Okay.

You know, and I had met a girl who eventually became my first wife.

And it was bizarre because I was truly so smitten.

It was like all of a sudden, you know, my little love bubble started showing up in my music.

You know, you're in love and it changes you chemically.

Okay, let me fast forward a little bit to right before you started working on Iris.

What was happening in your life at that time?

Well, that girl and I were getting divorced.

I know.

It's like, it always ends the same way.

You know, and I'm like going through a divorce.

I moved out here and I moved into a hotel called the Le Park over in West Hollywood.

And I was just so frustrated with everything that was going on.

There was so much change going on in my life, my personal life, my professional life.

What was happening on the professional side?

Well, I wrote this big hit song with name, song, name.

Yeah.

And everybody went, yeah, John, you wrote a big hit song.

Do it again.

And it's like, uh,

you know,

I stopped writing.

I felt like I couldn't write.

And then I got a phone call from my manager.

And he said, Danny Bramson, this is got Danny Bramson, who's a music supervisor at Warner.

Brothers.

And he invited me over because he wanted me to write a song for a film called City of Angels.

What do they tell you about the film?

So it's the story about this angel who has immortality, but he's lonely and he sees this woman and he just wants to know what it feels like to feel what all these humans are feeling because he's just going around watching them.

And so he makes this leap and he gives up his immortality for her, for love.

And, you know, and then he winds up, you know, getting spanked by it.

And at that point in time, I could really relate to that story.

And basically, it's a remake of Wings of Desire, which is a great, great, great movie.

Yeah.

So he's like, I'm going to show you the scene of this movie.

And I want you to see if you can come up with something for it.

Did he happen to tell you why he wanted you specifically to write a song for the film?

I don't know why he wanted me.

But it was an opportunity that however it came about, I was lucky enough to get it.

So I saw it and I went back to my hotel and I went to some video shop and I got Wings of Desire and I put it in the thing and I'm watching it.

And I thought, where am I going to write this from?

And then I said, well, what would I say?

What would I say to that woman?

I had a guitar and because I detune and use alternate tunings, I'd gone a little too far and I popped two strings off the guitar.

So I had four strings on this guitar left.

And I detuned the low E to a B, the other three strings to Ds.

Yeah.

And I'm just playing.

And I'm just running this, like, basically the shape of a power cord, but very simple.

So you're in your hotel room, and you're thinking about this scene.

Do you remember what the first lyrics were that you came up with?

What was the first jumping-off point?

Can I say okay if I grab that guitar?

Yeah, yeah,

this is a cool guitar.

Thank you.

But I do this when I read songs.

I'll be like,

You know what I mean?

I'll do it.

I'll do like the, you know, when people do their impersonation of Bob Dylan, it's like,

this all seemed about this same longer.

We're gonna live on

you.

You know, so that's how I get melodies.

And I always find melody first.

What sits on top of the chords?

And what does it make you feel?

And then sometimes a word will come out.

You're sitting there going, yeah, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

And I don't want to be like you.

I don't want to be like you.

I don't want the world.

And I don't want the world to see me.

Cause I don't think that they'd understand.

When everything's made to be broken

I just want you to know who I am

I Don't want the world to see me because I don't think that they'll understand when everything's made to be broken.

I just want you to know who I am.

So it was, you know, I'm this otherworldly being who wants to be a human.

You know, I don't think he planned for all the pain that came along with being human, really being human.

But I just love that concept of, like, yeah, I'm so in love with you, I will give up everything for you.

You want to feel so bad, even if it feels bad.

And this helped snap me out of the writer's block.

To have the script and a film, instead of just trying to like pull stuff out of thin air, it was like, oh, okay, yeah, I found my subject matter.

So I took it back to Danny and I played it for him on the four-string guitar.

Yeah.

And then Danny was like, Yeah, let's go do this.

So then I went over to, there was a place here in LA called Swing House, which is like a very, very classic old rehearsal spot.

And one of the guys that worked there set up the drum machine and microphone and we recorded it.

Can we listen to the demo?

Sure, sure, sure.

That beat is not what I would have expected.

Yeah, we couldn't figure out the math on the drum machine.

That's why it's so disjointed.

And I don't wanna go home right now.

You can see the tuning isn't completely there yet.

So I had to add the top two strings and I tuned those to D.

So they got five D's and one B.

I really appreciate how committed you were to that D string.

Oh yeah, very committed.

And I don't want the world to see me

because I don't think that they'd understand

when

And I took that demo to a producer named Rob Cavallo.

And then we went in the studio.

You know, he did some tweaking.

And Rob Cavallo fixed the drum pattern and came up with the proper beat.

And it has that sort of 6'8 feel to it.

But I don't think those side sticks made it to the final.

Oh my god, I lose it.

Every time I hear a side stick, I go.

No, they're definitely in the final version of the song.

Yeah, they're on there.

Yeah.

I hate this song now.

And were you thinking about a specific drum sound that you wanted?

I looked at it as an opportunity to like take the next step.

So it should feel epic, should feel a little bit bigger and a little more muscular than what we had done before, you know, because we'd mostly worked in Buffalo and, you know, we were a punk rock band when we started.

But then you come to a city like Los Angeles where your resources are unlimited.

So they rented this beautiful set of drums and all the gear.

And I got it was the first time in my life I got to play like five guitars and go, oh, I like that one.

So we tripled it.

And the bass

who's playing that mandolin?

That's Tim Pierce player.

One of the greatest session players in the history of recorded music.

Do you know whose idea it was to bring him in?

Rob's.

This is where Rob turned us on to some crazy stuff.

Jamie Mahobrack is a crazy talented keyboard player.

Another amazing, interesting guy that Rob Cavallo introduced us to.

And can we listen to your vocals?

Oh, God, yeah, sure.

And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming.

All the moment of truth in your lies.

When everything feels like the movies,

yeah, you bleed just to know you're alive.

Was it a hard song to record?

Yeah, that note is crazy high.

Yeah, the high note in the chorus.

Yeah.

But I remember taking a singing lesson before I went in.

I'd never taken a singing lesson.

And I went to some guy here in LA

and did all the warm-up with me.

And I'm like, oh, okay, cool.

And then I just went back to the studio with all this like confidence.

I'm like, now I know how to sing.

Now I took a singing lesson.

There we go.

And, you know, then he just went in and did it.

And I don't want the world to see me

because I don't think they'd understand

Well everything's made to be broken

I just want you to know who I am

My conversation with John Resnick continues after this

Song Exploder is sponsored by Quince, which is a great place to find clothes for the fall.

Here in LA, it's pretty hot during the day, but then it always drops to the low 60s at night, even in August.

So when I want to dress for the fall, even in the summer, I just wait for the evening, and then I put on this sweater that I got from Quince that has a sort of high collar with four buttons going up the neck.

It's made from Mongolian cashmere, and I really love it.

And I know I'm going to be wearing it through the fall here in LA.

and when I'm traveling other places.

Quince partners directly with Ethical Factories, and they only sell direct to customers.

So you get top-tier fabrics and craftsmanship at half the price of similar brands.

So keep it classic and cool this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Go to quince.com slash song exploder for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

That's q-u-in-ce.com slash song exploder for free shipping and 365-day returns.

Again, it's quince.com slash song exploder.

This episode is brought to you by the new film Splitsville.

It's a comedy about relationships and the messiness that comes with them, and it stars Dakota Johnson and Adria Arhona.

It premiered at Cannes, where it got rave reviews, and it's distributed by Neon.

And for me, that's huge, because I trust Neon the way that I trust my favorite record labels.

I will definitely check out anything that they put their name on.

So I'm looking forward to seeing this.

Splitsville is already playing now in select theaters, and it'll be playing everywhere on September 5th.

Song Exploder is sponsored by DistroKid.

If you're an independent artist, DistroKid is a great way to get your music distributed.

You get unlimited uploads, and you get to keep 100% of your royalties and earnings.

There are more than a million artists, including me, who have used DistroKid to get their music into all the major streaming services: Spotify, Apple Music, TikTok, everywhere.

The DistroKid app is now available on iOS and Android.

Go to the app or Play Store to download it now.

And for 10% off your first year's membership, go to distrokid.com/slash vip slash song exploder.

One of the things that I think is interesting about the song, just structurally, is that you have a really long instrumental section.

Yeah.

What inspired that?

I tend to get a little dramatic in my music and I like a lot of dynamics.

Whatever feels right, you know, bring in Tim Pierce again.

Tim also played that crazy guitar solo, too.

Then Rob was like, we're going to put strings on this.

And Robbie and I were like, what, what?

You know, we were very

reluctant to do it.

So Rob's like, no, no, don't worry about it.

We're going to try it.

It's going to be cool.

And then we were like, well, okay, but if it freaks us out too much,

we reserve the right to say no.

Okay, fine.

And then we met the king,

David Campbell, one of the greatest composers, string arrangers, and Beck's dad.

Yeah.

So they got an eight-piece ensemble.

And Robbie and I were in the control room and we were kneeling in front of the glass watching the players.

And when they came out and started playing,

Robbie and I were like, uh-oh, uh-oh.

It's kind of cool.

And then I'm like, you know, if we do this, there's no going back to what we were doing.

And he's like, yeah.

And then we were both like, fuck it, let's do it.

And I don't want the world to see me.

Cause I don't think that they'd understand.

Boy,

everything's made to be broken.

I just want you to know who I am.

I just want you to know who I am.

I just want you to know who I am

I just want you to know who I am

so

in the spirit of moving forward you know we did it and it worked and we took a lot of shit for it but it worked I guess I'm surprised to hear that you took shit for it because at that point on your previous album you had a ballad that was like a big hit yeah name yeah name yeah but that was more ragged and worked in that sort of world that we were living in of like soul asylum and the replacements and REM.

And this was more produced.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it was a little scary.

It was a little scary because it was a very, very fine recording, a very fine recording engineer.

And it was also like, oh my God, are we, are we sellouts?

Yeah, because that was a big deal back then.

Now everyone is trying to sell out as hard as they can.

You know, there is no such thing as selling out anymore, which is interesting.

I wanted to ask you about the title, because the name Iris is not in the song.

No.

And it's not in the movie either.

No.

Where did the title for the song come from?

I was seeing a girl when I was living out here.

We were having coffee.

I'm looking at the LA Weekly and Iris Dement was playing.

The singer.

Yeah.

And I just said, Iris, that's a beautiful name.

You know, Iris.

And they were like, yo, you got to name this song.

And I was just like, it's called Iris.

They're like, what do you mean?

It's called Iris.

Just leave it.

Leave it.

Because I was listening to Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness.

Yeah.

And it was like the Billy Corgan thing, you know, Bullet with Butterfly Wings or whatever.

And you're like, huh.

Yeah, man, I got to have one of those cool names for my song.

It's not in the song, but you just call it that.

You know, I mean, that was a thing for a while.

Yeah.

But I just love that name.

So after you finished the recording, how was it received when you handed it in?

Because you were writing this for the soundtrack, but also for the scene in the movie, right?

It had to play in the actual film.

Yeah, right.

I was definitely writing the song for the film, but the director got the song.

Yeah.

And he didn't like it.

He didn't like it.

And he was like, this is, this is too big.

It's too dramatic.

It's not working.

Can you record a completely stripped down, just you and an acoustic guitar playing it?

And I bitched and moaned about it because I was, you know, full of my own shit.

You know, so I was in the studio with a guy named Jack Joseph Puig.

You know, and he set up this beautiful microphone and gave me this beautiful guitar.

We just started playing.

And I don't want the world to see me,

cause I don't think that they'd understand.

When everything's made to be broken,

I just want you to know who I am.

It flowed and I softened my position on the whole thing because I was told, and this was great advice, I was told, listen, you were hired to do this to support the vision.

And

that humbled me.

And I was like, okay, if this is more closely related to his vision,

of course.

Okay, fine.

And nobody remembers that version, I don't think.

Because you only hear it in the movie.

You only hear it in the film, yeah.

But then the full band version that you did, that came out on the soundtrack.

Were you surprised that that ended up being like such a big hit?

So

Danny Bramson was talking about the soundtrack.

And I was like, who's going to be on this?

And he was like, well, YouTube, Peter Gabriel, Alanis.

And I was like, oh, I just want to be on a record with those guys, you know?

Yeah, and that song was very, very much the dark horse.

I mean, you know, come on.

You're going up against you two and Atlantis and Peter Gabriel.

But the soundtrack came out on Raprise Records.

And that radio team decided they were going to work it.

And was there a specific moment where you realized that the song had become a huge hit?

Uh,

yeah.

You know when it dawned on me?

Okay, I remember this.

A guy, a guy came up to me.

I don't know where I was.

I was just doing something.

A guy just walks right up to me and he's like, Hey, man, you're that guy from that band.

That's always how people approach me.

Excuse me, you're that guy from that band.

And then he says, Man, I gotta tell you, I love that song, Iris, man, but they gotta stop playing that shit on the radio, man.

It's just on there so much.

Every time I turn on any radio station, I gotta hear that song.

I'm getting sick of it.

Then I was like, all right, it worked.

cool, man.

And now, here's Iris by Google Dolls in its entirety.

And I'd give up forever to touch you.

Cause I know that you feel me somehow.

You're the closest to heaven that I'll ever be.

And I don't wanna go home right now.

And all I could taste is this moment.

And all I can breathe is your life.

And sooner or later it's over.

I just don't wanna miss you tonight.

And I don't want the world to see me.

Cause I don't think that they'd understand.

When everything's made to be broken,

I just want you to know who I am.

And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming.

All the moment the truth in your lies.

When everything feels like the moon bees,

yeah, you bleed just to know you're alive.

And I don't want the world

to see me.

Cause I don't think they'd understand.

Well, everything's made to be broken.

I just want you to know who I am.

And I don't want the world to see me.

Cause I don't think they understand.

But when everything's meant to be broken,

I just want you to know who I am.

And I don't want the world to see me,

cause I don't think that they'd understand.

When everything's made to be broken,

I just want you to know who I am.

I just want you to know who I am.

I just want you to know who I am.

I just want you to know who I am.

To learn more, visit songexploder.net.

You'll find links to buy or stream Iris, and you can watch the music video and also the scene in the movie that uses the acoustic version.

This episode was produced by me, Mary Dolan, Craig Ely, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Biscoop.

The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo.

Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts.

You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm.

And if you'd like to hear more from me, you can sign up for my newsletter, which you can find on the Song Exploder website.

And if you want to support the show another way, you can get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net/slash shirt.

I'm Rishikesh Yurway.

Thanks for listening.

Radiotopia

from PRX.

This episode of Song Exploder is brought to you by Booking.com.

Booking.yeah.

From vacation rentals to hotels across the US, Booking.com has the ideal stay for anyone, even for those who might seem impossible to please.

Whether you're booking for yourself, your partner, your dad, your group of friends, whoever it is, you can find exactly what you're booking for at booking.com.

Booking.com, booking.yeah.

Book today on the site or in the app.