Little Simz - Free

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made.

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Little Sims is a rapper from England who put out her first album in 2015.

She's won the Mercury Prize, a Brit Award, and three Mobile Awards.

She also starred in the Netflix series Talk Boy.

Her most recent album is called Lotus and came out in June 2025, and it followed a pretty tumultuous time in her career.

For this episode I got to talk to Little Sims about one of the songs from that album called Free along with Miles Clinton James who produced the track.

My name is Simby.

Where does the story of this song start for you?

This song kind of happened in two parts.

It was the year 2022, like springtime.

I was reading this book called Conversations with God

and it talks a lot about love and fear and the duality of those two things.

I had this feeling like, why is it fear and not hate?

But that book definitely unlocked that for me.

And I was just in a deep state of like documenting my thoughts and feelings on paper.

So I kind of wanted to write like my take.

So I wrote the words as like a poem.

Would you read the poem?

Yeah.

I think love is understanding that people can change and loving them anyway through every stage.

I read all about love, then I gave it to Jade.

I think love is sharing knowledge.

There's so much to gain.

I think love is every time I put pen to the page.

If I don't love what I'm doing and I'm highly engaged, God, you love me though.

I'm flawed.

I know I'm not an innocent child, but I am yours.

And if you're with me, you are safe.

I know my body isn't immortal, but I am brave.

I think you know it's real love when it's sincere.

I'm a show.

I ain't scared, eradicate fear.

I'm not the best, like, poetry deliverer.

I don't think.

No, that sounded great.

No, some people that are so aware of like the space and the cadence cadence and stuff.

But I think mine just ends up sounding like a rap or like I'm just, yeah.

When you were writing that, who do you think you were writing it for?

Me.

Like, what are the parts of that that you felt like you most needed to hear?

I think that love is forgiving yourself.

Like, just that line, yeah, really hits me.

Because I just think.

you know, we make mistakes

and carry a lot of like shame and a lot of blame sometimes.

And it weighs us down.

Well, it's definitely weighed me down.

And I think I've just had to forgive myself.

Do you know what I mean?

I came into this industry like very trusting.

How old were you?

I started performing when I was like nine.

But when I started putting out music, I was probably like 14, 15.

there's a lot i probably would have done different but then even when i say that i'm like would i though because i guess it has made me who i am so i think it's just embracing all that comes with who you are and like

same way you can learn to accept people.

I think you learn how to accept your shortcomings and just try and be better and just forgive yourself.

So you said that the song happened in two parts.

What was the second part?

I wrote the poem and then got in with Miles who produced the song.

So I'm Miles Clinton James and I'm a record producer from North London.

How did you and Sims first meet?

Oh Oh goodness.

I mean that was a very long time ago.

I was a session musician and the first session was maybe 2014.

I can vaguely remember playing some bass in a studio somewhere in East London.

And yeah, I just remember thinking she was really focused.

She had her headphones on and you know was writing on a notepad.

That's my earliest memory.

So we probably didn't speak a huge amount then.

How did it go from that situation where you're not speaking to each other and you're there as a session player to becoming the producer of this track

you know post that session i uh was called in quite a bit to work with sims and i would be playing you know whatever it was needed at the time so it could have been guitar bass percussion and on the previous album i was involved quite heavily on the the writing side of things so i was in you know with the full band and orchestra and you know coming up with ideas in the moment So yeah, that was maybe the session that consolidated our relationship.

We definitely spent a lot of time just connecting.

Yeah, emotionally, absolutely.

And then June last year, we had a proper catch-up over the phone.

We spoke about kind of where she'd been, where she was currently.

You know, she was in quite a difficult space, I would say.

She called me up and I could tell there was a...

an emptiness or hollowness in her voice.

The call really took me off guard, to be honest.

I was in another session and I could feel how charged, how tense she was feeling, you know, even just over the phone.

I just got out of a situation that kind of just rattled my whole shit, to be honest.

Someone that I was creatively intertwined with and worked on a lot of music with.

And I think when you create with people

for a long time, you almost start to feel and almost get me to feel like without

this setup,

you can't do what you do yeah

and yeah it just really rocked me a lot i can kick myself and beat myself up and like oh you idiot like you should have known and you should have

my response to that was like

i'm not confident in myself and i'm not one of them to the studio and make everyone believe that i am i'm not a pretender and that's not how i feel And that kind of, yeah, that stopped me in my tracks.

But what I can try and do is use it and i can talk about

the fact that i don't feel confident in myself in a song like free and what made you want to reach out to miles specifically he just wasn't afraid i knew he was just going to be super down to like

try

whatever and that excited me because i didn't know what kind of album we were going to make

but I wanted to feel free and just like a kid that is just, this is just play.

There are so many different kinds of producers out there who work in so many different ways.

I was wondering for you, what do you want from a producer?

I think the role of the producer is to essentially understand

what the artist wants to say and allows them the room to be able to express that and then compose

this soundtrack to that story.

Most of the other tracks on the album were created from scratch together with Sims, where Free is an exception to that.

Free came out of an evening hangout with my closest friend, who's also a co-writer on the song guy called Alex Bonfanti.

He and myself, we've been friends for the longest time, but as he's toured more and I've got children, we don't find much time to connect.

So I'd hold these evening kind of catch-ups, you know, with no real pressure on what would come out of it, just really for us to catch up.

I jumped on drums and Al is an incredible bass player.

He's the guy who's actually playing bass on the song.

First of all, there's something that you can only hear when you have the stems isolated, which is this little moment.

I think that might actually be Al saying,

you know,

he was lucky in and he was pretty happy with the groove I was playing.

Amazing.

I love stuff like that.

There's so much hidden stuff in stems that no one would ever know about.

But leave it in.

It's part of the vibe.

Where were you recording this?

So I'm based at a studio in North London, which has already been around since the 70s.

It belongs to a band called The Kinks.

Oh, wow.

And I have a room right at the top of the building.

So I've over the years collected a number of tape machines.

And Free, in fact, was one of those songs that was recorded directly to 2-inch tape in one pass,

which, you know, in this day and age is quite special.

I'd say not many people try and record directly to tape, you know, with no ability to erase or edit, or at least a, you know, limited ability to do it.

The bass line on this is, I mean, it's like the opposite of a loop.

Even as the chord progression cycles back around, the bass part's always doing something different.

You know, we actually jammed the song from beginning to end.

So there was all this great movement that was happening naturally in his playing.

And, you know, sometimes, unfortunately, people can go in and tidy stuff up and, yeah, simplify a lot of stuff.

But in this case, I just felt like, actually, this is what it was supposed to be.

You know, this interaction is human and shouldn't be tidied up too much.

So there's all this natural variation.

You're right.

These little things are just, I think, what makes it special.

But yeah, Alex is wicked, man.

He's great.

We started off with the drum and bass groove, you know, and and then I eventually came back in and said, hold on, it'd be nice to put some nylon guitar and some percussion down on top.

And that's my humble $70

nylon guitar from back in the day.

It feels really dry and basic, but definitely I love having it around.

And that's myself on congas and my friend Alex playing tambourine.

And what we would do when we have these jams is we'd lay the drums, bass and guitar down.

And because my room's full of, you know, African drums and weird bits of percussion, because we'd do one pass just for fun of percussion together to give it some life.

So there you're hearing myself and Alex with a microphone, you know, six feet in front of us.

And we are singing, but not at that original pitch.

In fact, what we're doing is we're singing at a lower pitch, and I've sped that up.

No kidding.

Yeah, so the original vocals were done by myself and our at a lower pitch.

So, we'd recorded the original instrumental and we wanted to get into that space of early kind of Jackson 5 kind of early 70s soul.

And, you know, a lot of those singers had almost, you know, squeaky, high-pitched vocals.

So, one creative way to do that was actually to slow the tape down

and

sing it at a lower pitch

so that's what your voices actually sound like there you go exactly yeah

So we're using some pretty old-school period correct stuff.

Just tape machine technology.

Absolutely.

We didn't have any computers involved at this early stage.

Part of the catch-up is just recording to tape, no screens, and just playing, you know.

And then when you go and play the combined vocals and rhythm section back together, your voice is actually formatted up so you sound higher.

Where did those words come from?

I know me and Alex for quite a while have been going to a lot of marches in central London.

We were feeling injustice in the world was kind of weighing heavy on our hearts and you know more love was more needed.

So that was something that just felt right.

It matched our energy.

But even after we finished the song, we didn't really know what, you know, would come of it.

My conversation with Lil Sims and Miles James continues after this.

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How did you first hear the track that Miles and Alex made?

I think Miles just played it.

Yo, what is that?

And then I just had it on loop.

Like I was just listening to it, listening to it.

Yeah.

And I don't know, I just felt really emotional.

But I also felt really uplifted.

It felt positive and bright, and I needed that.

And so, I just got into just keep playing it.

And then I land on the poem.

I think that love is forgiving yourself.

I think that love is offering your immediate help.

I think that love is everything that we need in this world.

I think the key is being honest and being yourself.

I think love is understanding that people can change and loving them anyway through every stage.

I read all about love, then I gave it to Jade.

Love is sharing knowledge, there's so much to gain.

how long had it been at that point since you'd written the poem originally two

years so what made you want to reach back to that poem for this song in that moment i think it was just the hook wishing that the love will set us free it just felt super fitting to talk about love what that meant to me and then talk about fear I think that fear is not trusting yourself.

I think that fear is keeping true information withheld.

I think fear can be exposed in abundance of wealth and then creeps in when you're not loving yourself.

Fear can be dressed in a form of protection, fear can be the culprit of slowing progression.

Can you tell me what you were thinking about in terms of your flow and delivery in the verses?

I just wanted it to feel conversational,

like I could just say this to you.

And also,

I think I love that style of like rap

where it's in the pocket and the music is just supporting what I'm saying.

Love is something that you can't measure.

No judgment, no pressure.

It's your letter, your words for whomever.

Why did you want it to feel conversational?

Because I think this is a conversation.

Like, let's talk about it.

Like, if we were going around in a circle and everyone had to say what they thought love and fear was about,

this is what I would say.

And I can pass the mic and let's have a discussion.

Do you know?

Like, I don't know anything, and that's why I say, I think in the lyrics, I think that love is forgiving yourself.

It might not be

like, I don't know.

From what I think and what I feel, that's what I think it is.

And it's like, once upon a time, I probably thought love was pain if you don't feel pain then that's not love then is it yeah

and so I think yeah it changes and I'm just getting more understanding of what I think it means to me I just wanted to feel like this is a wider conversation I think we fear all the answers, so we'd ask the questions.

Yeah, I think that shit is a lethal weapon.

I think we fear being naked from the fear of rejection.

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then why are we obsessed with seeking perfection?

And then we get to the end part.

Yeah, after those first two verses, the song kind of shifts.

It was an accident that last verse.

I'd had a section looping.

I was probably working on editing for something in Pro Tools and I had this loop going.

It was just looping.

Three, two, three, four.

Free, two, three, four.

Yeah, Sims just, you know, when she heard that, you know, she just got writing immediately.

Just keep looping it and I'll just keep going.

MJ said he got the tunes, I should pull a pat.

Every time I bust a lyric, I've been feeling so.

That was a cool moment.

Cause it was so accidental.

You couldn't write it, yeah.

I love how in this section you change the word of the sample, like from three to three, depending on the context of what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you have a favorite line from that outro?

I like Auntie Simby, what she called me when my niece turned three.

That's my favorite, too.

Really?

Because I have a niece, and that just is so sweet.

It's like a little emotional dagger you just like snuck in.

Auntie Simby, what she call me when my niece turned.

Used to bump the train to college, I would travel for.

Never miss a countdown, it was 5-4.

2-1 take off in the air arm.

Can you tell me about the strings that are also in this track?

How did you end up deciding to add those?

I struggled with a feeling that the chorus, you know, the main Wishing That Love Will Set Us Free section didn't feel...

for want of a better term, chorusy enough.

And I always had in my back of my mind some of the initial references, you know, the Jackson 5 stuff had audacious string lines so we teamed up with an amazing string arranger rosie danvers

she came around to the studio one day and i sang some some ideas loose ideas and she went away for 10 days or so and kind of arranged some of the ideas that i sang you know and then we were fortunate enough to get one string day across the whole record you know which includes maybe six or seven songs with strings on.

So we're in a studio called Rack in London.

We have a power cut.

In the middle of the day, the whole studio blackout, nothing's working.

So I'm like, oh my, that we literally had this one day.

You can imagine how expensive a day with full string section, you know, in a great studio in London costs for the power to go down.

So it became quite stressful very quickly.

We had candles lit and we had to rewire pretty much the whole studio to bring in external power on these, you know, it was really quite a stressful day.

The players rehearsed it in the dark, it was like we're flying through the songs or whatever.

So, we get to three,

and it might have been like the second to last song we had to do strings on.

But because it wasn't a priority and we're running out of time, we're like, Can we just do the stuff that

we need to get strings for?

But Rosie was just like, Let's just do this, it'll take 20 minutes, bang, bang, bang.

And

as soon as the first like note comes in with the strings,

I never forget me and Mars just looked at each other, like,

yo.

Everything about the song made even

more sense.

It just felt so classic and it just worked.

It was perfect.

And it did just add, you know, when I was saying I was looking for something to give that chorus that feeling of it landing and feeling special, the strings really do that.

You know, if you told someone that free is a song about love, their first assumption might be that it's a song about like a romantic relationship yeah which it's not yeah no it's far from i've definitely deep to like

there's more to this thing than people are telling me

and through my own experience have just come to my own thoughts and feelings about it

And it might change, you know what I mean?

I think maybe in 10 years I might say actually

love isn't it's more about forgiving people just in general not so much about self self self that might be an idea yeah you know of what i think love is

so it's just like at the time what i was feeling like

i needed to hear as reminders to myself you know and what I've learned over the years.

But that's what I was saying earlier.

Like, I don't really know anything.

So I think I'm down to check.

And now, here's Free by Little Sims in its entirety.

Wish you let the love will set us free.

I think that love is forgiving yourself.

I think that love is offering your immediate help.

I think that love is everything that we need in this world.

I think the key is being honest and being yourself.

I think love is understanding that people can change.

And loving them anyway through every stage.

I read all about love, then I gave it to Jade.

Love is sharing knowledge, it's so much the game.

Love is every time I put pen to the page.

If I don't love what I'm doing, then I'm highly engaged.

yeah God, you love me though, I am flawed I know I'm not an innocent child, but I am yours

And if you're with me, you are safe I know my body isn't immortal but I am brave I think you know it's real love when it's sincere I'ma show up my ain't scared, eradicate fear, yeah

Love is something that you can't measure No judgment, no pressure It's your left are your words but whoever

I think that fear is not trusting yourself I think that fear is keeping true information withheld I think fear can be exposed in abundance of wealth And then creeps in when you're not loving yourself Fear can be dressed in a form of protection Fear can be the culprit of stolen progression It can be impulsive and be an obsession I think we fear all the answers so we'd ask the questions Yeah, I think that shit is a lethal weapon I think we fear being naked from the fear of rejection.

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder,

then why are we obsessed with seeking perfection?

Fear will probably hear this and feel exposed.

Fear works best when love isn't close.

But love will never judge you because of your pain.

Look in the mirror and say, I love you unconditionally every day.

Pushing back that love will set us free.

Said that we would never ever crash.

Bone under pressure, love guess our using the new hold.

Pushing back the love will set us free.

Love is something that you can't measure.

No judgment, no pressure.

It's your letter, your words, but whoever.

Pushing back the love will set us free.

Said that we would never ever crash fold under pressure.

Love, guitar using to do better.

Pushing that love will set us free.

Can't hold me down, cause I've always been.

Why they always wanna hate when the love is.

Hit me now, my check it was one, one, two One more, I want enough, so I had to get I remember when they said nothing in life is Evil spirits cannot enter when your soul is MJ said he got the tunes, I should pull up pat Every time I bust a lyric, I've been feeling so

Every time I'm on the stage, I've been feeling so Auntie Simby, what she call me when my knees turn Used to bump the train to college, I would travel for Never miss a countdown, it was 5-4 2-1 take off in the air arm Shout my brothers locked in the can, tryna get There's a war outside, pray the people go.

Shout my brothers locked in the can trying to get.

There's a war outside, pray the people go.

Shout my brothers locked in the can, trying to get.

Said there's a war outside, pray the people go.

Shout my brothers locked in the can trying to get.

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This episode was produced by me, Mary Dolan, Craig Ely, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Bisco.

The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo.

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