EP.235 - KIM DEAL

Rosie,

do you want to come out for a walk in Storm Darrow?

No, thank you.

I'd like a script scratch.

Under the chin, around the chestal area.

How's that?

Quite nice.

Sure, you don't want to come for a walk in Storm Darrow?

No, thanks.

Alright, I'll see you later.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin.

Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening.

I took my microphone and found some human folk.

Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke.

My name is Adam Buxton.

I'm a man.

I want you to enjoy this.

That's the plan.

Hey,

how are you doing podcasts?

Adam Buxton here, your intrepid podcast host, reporting to you from a freezing, rainy, windy farm track in the east of England, Norfolk County.

And this is, I think, the tail end of Storm Darrow.

It was lashing the house, buffeting castle buckles

right through the night and for the last day or two.

Not that I'm complaining, we have had it way easier than some parts of the UK.

And we still have our power as I speak.

Usually, what happens when we get any kind of storm around here is that the power goes down.

The old power lines in these country parks

get a tree branch on them or whatever, and then that's you out of action for a bit till the power rangers can get them back up again.

Anyway, I hope you're doing alright wherever you are.

Oh, it's like having little needles fired at you.

Little cold needles.

I mean, you might be thinking, why don't you just do the intro from your house?

Well, that's true.

I suppose I could do that, but

I didn't go out all yesterday.

The storm was so bad.

And it's not raining quite as hard as it was yesterday just at this moment.

Plus, it's the brand, isn't it?

You've got to do that intro and outro from the fields.

Oh, I'm regretting the brand at the moment.

Oh, some quite good squelchy field action here for the Foley fans.

Axel Foley.

Here we go.

Suddenly everything's calmed down.

Maybe I'm just in a stretch where I'm protected by this little copse over to my right.

So I'm going to linger here while I tell you a bit about my guest for podcast number 235.

She is one of my favorite musicians, someone whose music has improved my life immeasurably over the years.

Kim Deal.

Deal facts.

Kimberly Ann Deal was born in June 1961, 11 minutes after her twin sister Kelly, and she grew up in the Dayton, Ohio suburb of Huber Heights.

She learned how to play acoustic acoustic guitar from the Neil Young Easy Guitar Book and cut her teeth playing gigs at truck stops, biker bars, and country bars, where she would play covers of songs by Delaney and Bonnie, Blind Faith, and Hank Williams.

Meanwhile, Kim got a degree in medical technology and after leaving college, worked for a few years in labs analyzing patient test samples.

In 1986, Kim moved to Boston after getting married.

And during her first week working at a doctor's office, she was leafing through a local paper when she saw an ad that said, Band seeks bassist Interhuskadoo and Peter, Paul and Mary.

Please, no chops.

After responding to the ad, Kim met Charles Thompson and his flatmate Joey Santiago and accepted their invitation to join their band, Pixies.

Come On Pilgrim, an EP of songs from the band's demo, was released the following year, 1987, on the 4AD label.

The Pixies' debut album, Surfer Rosa, was recorded by Steve Albini, a producer whose uncompromising and principled approach to music production made him an industry legend.

Surfer Rosa was released in 1988, the same year that Kim got divorced.

Pixies took a break after the breakthrough success of their 1989 album, Doolittle, and during the hiatus, Kim formed The Breeders with Tanya Donnelly of the band Throwing Muses, Josephine Wiggs of The Perfect Disaster and Britt Walford of Slint.

Kim's sister Kelly stepped in following the release of the Breeders' debut album Pod when Tanya Donnelly left the Breeders to start her own band Belly.

The Breeders' second LP, Last Splash, was released in 1993 and included the huge hit Cannonball, accompanied by a music video directed by Sonic youths Kim Gordon and a young Spike Jones.

Another track from Last Splash, an instrumental called SOS, was sampled a few years later by a British band for a song that went on to become another huge hit.

This was the bit that was sampled.

That was turned into

Firestarter by the Prodigy.

As far as the breeders were concerned, in the mid to late 90s, struggles with drugs, oh, struggles with druggles, and alcohol led both Kim and Kelly to spend time in rehab.

But by 2002, a revitalized and reformed lineup of the breeders released a new album titled TK, followed by Mountain Battles in 2008 and All Nerve in 2018.

More recently, the Breeders toured to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Last Splash, and this year, 2024, they even joined the phenomenally successful young actor and singer Olivia Rodrigo on her world tour as a supporting act, including four sold-out shows at Madison Square Garden in New York City.

And I don't know if there are too many other bands who can say that they once toured with Olivia Rodrigo and Nirvana, as the Breeders did in 1992.

This year has also seen the release of Kim's first solo album, Nobody Loves You More.

The album, which often sounds quite different to what you might expect from Kim, features production one last time from Steve Albini, who sadly died from a heart attack in May this year, adding another layer of poignancy to an album already liberally sprinkled with the stuff.

I talked to Kim about one of the tracks on there, Are You Mine, a beautifully reworked version of a song Kim first released in 2013 that was inspired by a period in her life which began in 2002 when she moved back to Dayton, Ohio to help care for her mother who had Alzheimer's.

My conversation with Kim was recorded face to face in July of this year 2024.

It was a properly rambling chat that touched on our respective experiences of the Glastonbury Festival this year, hers from playing at the festival with the breeders, mine from watching it on TV.

We talked about Kim's earliest musical influences.

She told me about her dad and his remarkable life.

There's a bit of identical twin chat, childhood memories.

We talked about working with Steve Albini.

And then at the end, you'll hear a short chat about our mutual love of the TV show Star Trek the Next Generation.

Back at the end for another couple of uplifting film recommendations from Tim Key and screenwriter Jane Goldman, but right now with Kim Deal.

Here we go.

Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat.

We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that.

Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat.

Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat.

La

la

la la la

I have an SM7 at home that I used to sing in.

Quite handy.

This is a mini one.

Yeah, it looks pugged.

Yeah.

I've never seen a mini one.

This is a fair, relatively new one.

Aren't those a pain in the butt, those vice things?

Yeah.

I mean, it's.

Mine doesn't swing like that.

The arm, it doesn't have an arm like that.

look, I've got this.

What would you call these?

I know what those are stronger than right now.

A tonguey.

Spongy.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

I've got one of those because the armature doesn't sit where I want it to.

I'm confused why that's helpful, Rare.

Well, because

sometimes it keeps popping up.

Oh, that's surprising.

I would have thought it was sinking.

I'm going to keep all of this in it.

No, it pops up because it's so light.

There you go.

That's better.

That's better.

Wow.

Okay.

I think that sound is a bit better for my mind.

That is good.

Oh, I've got a terrible back.

Oh, sorry to offload all my middle-aged.

No, I had one, but I've gotten it pretty good sussed out now.

It was a nemesis of mine.

What do you do?

I went to

an ace

and he had me do two things and I keep going back if ever I get problematic.

He sits here, I stand in front of him and he puts his thumbs here and he goes, and he's a doctor, he's just in a strip mall and he says bend over.

Kim is putting her thumbs on her lower back and raising her right knee.

This leg and then her left knee.

Okay now bend over.

He goes okay.

Hop up, you're out.

Do you garden?

No, but I cycle and I have a Brompton, a fold-up bike, and I worry that the weight of the bike is too.

When you're walking around?

Yeah, I walk around with it and carry it and stuff.

Here's what he told me.

Yeah.

It was really hard.

Don't pick up guitar cases anymore.

I'm like, no, but

I can't get somebody else to pick up my guitar.

I mean, that's impossible.

I can't, it's not going to happen.

I've got to pick up.

Don't do it.

And then go back and go back.

And then now I'm like, now I'm like, put my guitar away, lock up my case.

And then I just like, somebody did that.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's how I've stopped it getting worse.

Because if I did pick up that and I carried your bike, I would have a problem.

Yeah, definitely.

You're too old to lift now.

Yes.

I don't want to be too old to lift.

Yeah, that's too bad.

Dr.

Deal.

Yeah.

Why do you look so young?

It's good living, positive thinking.

Yeah.

Good energy.

Do you dye your hair?

Do you mind me asking?

Oh, no, I don't mind.

Yeah, I just did it on Monday.

Oh, it looks very good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Just the roots, you know.

Yeah.

But I've been doing it for a long time, so it's something I'm used to.

A lot of my podcast conversations these days, I've noticed, start with vanity chat.

Really?

Yeah.

Why are you?

Because I'm getting to that age that everything's, I'm, you know, the war with my cowardly hair.

is being lost in a far far faster than it ever was.

Like in the last five years, it's it's suddenly gone all patchy and baldy.

Right.

That's when wearing a hat.

Yeah.

And which hard though, once you start wearing a beanie, it's hard to live life without it.

Exactly.

All of a sudden, it's like, oh, my head is really cold today.

Why not?

Oh, I forgot to put my beanie on.

It's funny, isn't it?

It is, but I don't want to be anyway.

Look, I'm doing it again.

I don't want to spend the whole conversation

wanging on about my bald patch.

How was Glastonbury?

You know, somebody asked asked me that, and

Arnold was like, Glastonbury.

You'd have to ask somebody who went.

I don't know.

Only because, okay, so we were at the park stage.

Yeah.

I suppose.

Somebody told me we were going to play there.

Courtney Barnett told me we were going to play there.

Ah, she's brilliant.

Stella.

Yeah.

Was she there this year?

No, but they were backstage at a London show that we played.

And they said something about, oh, Glastonbury.

It's like,

it's just so big.

How can anybody have an opinion about it unless you're like Dua Leap or something?

It's, you know, it's tremendous.

It's cold.

I'm cold play.

I have an opinion.

Anybody else, you're just.

We're going to need that space that your bus is sitting at.

So get out so we can get the next band in.

It's like, go, go, go.

Right.

So there's no, you didn't like wander around and go to a photograph.

I would stand.

I wouldn't know where to wander.

I don't even think I have the right pass to get off the grounds to wander.

Seriously, I don't think I do.

So, that kind of thing, you go in, you're on your bus or your transit van or whatever, you go straight to the backstage area.

Do you sound check?

I can't remember.

Well, do they sound check for you?

I always wonder how it works.

I don't think, I don't, I would have been, I would be surprised if I had to sound check that day.

Yeah, I can't remember.

Well, lots of artists had problems with their sound this year?

Yeah, I read that.

There were a few people who were out of sync with Cindy Lauper's set, and and then people online were going, Is that on television?

Yeah.

Okay.

I heard that too.

But then I didn't see it.

But then music always sounds bad on live TV.

Yeah.

So all of these loving,

this loving work to create this sonic environment and atmosphere for the song to work perfectly at this one moment.

It just, all you hear is the snare drum going, quack, quack.

And then me just going, ah!

So it sounded very good.

You did sound good.

It was fun.

I mean, was it fun though?

Do you remember if it was enjoyable?

It was enjoyable.

It was a nice day, and yeah, it was enjoyable.

I was impressed, though, because I could see.

Did you see Glassbury?

You were at home watching it.

I was at home watching it.

But you felt like you were at Glastonbury, don't you?

Yeah, I felt I was.

I felt I was at the best Glastonbury, the one with a sofa and a big projection screen.

And

she was a good actor for Glastonbury, wasn't she?

Dua Lipa.

Yes.

Yeah, we watched that in the evening.

We had some supper and then we watched a bit of Dua Leapa and then we thought that's enough, Dua Leaper, and then we went to bed.

And did you watch the Cold Play?

They're a good Glastonbury band too, aren't they?

Explosions, Colour.

I have to be honest with you.

The festival.

And say that I almost got a bit teary watching Cold Play.

I think I'm going to have to leave.

That's really sweet.

I thought this guy is absolutely smashing it.

And I turned it on right at the bit where he was saying saying some speech about like okay everyone in the crowd turn round and just send out like a load of love just a load of love to like your granny or whoever just send some like lots of lots of love and i was thinking what the fuck is going on

did you feel it through the through the airways well stuff my initial response was a big wave of cynicism right of course and it i was in trouble i was almost overwhelmed by the cynicism And then, suddenly, though, after that, he did this thing where he was

he got the cameras to focus on different audience members

and their faces went up on the jumbotron.

And then he improvised a song for each person that

he focused on.

He did not.

He did.

He was out there with his guitar.

And I don't know if he practiced beforehand, like maybe got the camera people backstage to pick out some people and then made up little ditties.

But he improvised like four little songs, and it was very good.

The ditties were good, and the people saw that they were on, and he was singing the song for them.

I bet they were freaked.

The thing is that he's a really good singer, yeah.

So it was like, wow, you can really sing.

Yeah,

and the ditties were funny.

It was just him and his guitar.

Him and his guitar.

That's nice.

And then the band come back in.

The band sound absolutely brilliantly drilled, super tight.

Did they sound good over TV?

Very good.

Nice.

Yeah.

I mean, they're paying the right people, presumably, though, aren't they?

They can afford to pay the guy to turn the bass up

who Cindy Lauper couldn't pay off.

Yeah, exactly.

But no, they were very good, whether you like their music or not.

And it just

perfect combination.

It was perfect.

Yeah.

It was really great.

But I must say, I was impressed when you were singing.

I gathered my children round.

I said, we're going to watch The Breeders.

Daddy's got to work.

Help me get through this.

Yeah.

And I said, you're going to enjoy this.

This is what music's supposed to be like.

Oh, God, Lord.

But immediately, you came in and you and Kelly, you do harmonies that are very quite precise, right?

Well, I don't know.

It depends on who's listening and what night it is.

Yeah.

You sang when you were very little with your sister, with Kelly, right?

I mean, I have this cute tape.

It was a little tape machine that you have the little reel-to-reel.

Like a Fisher-Price type thing.

Well, it was my mom's and dad's.

Oh, so it was a bit better than that.

It was a quarter-inch, maybe two track.

I think it was a two-track.

But it wasn't a nice one that you can find on eBay now, and it was really expensive because it needs to be cute.

It's not one of those.

But we had a recording of that, and we and her are singing.

And I listened to it just recently.

You know, I thought it was going to sound better.

I had it in my mind that we were like,

what is it called when children are little geniuses?

Prodigies.

I thought we were little prodigies.

And I've listened to it and it's like, eh, it's all right.

Yeah, we're doing okay.

But we do an ink sing the whole thing in an English accent.

Oh, wow.

The English accent, I think, is pretty good.

As long as I can't sing it, I can't do the English snack.

A needs me in spite

of what you say.

Do you know what I'm even singing?

Okay, this.

No.

What's the song?

I want to hear the whole song, though.

I want to hear the whole song in that accent.

But do I sound like a barn owl to you or do you know what I'm talking talking about?

I don't know the song.

You're a barn owl it is.

You sound like a soulful cockney lady.

It's the bar winch on what's Oliver.

Oliver, yeah.

That's right.

So you did know.

Did you know?

Is it an Oliver song?

I'm not very good on my musicals.

I'm not either.

This was, I was four.

All I want is a home somewhere, far away from the cold night air.

That's Mary Poppins, though, isn't it?

I don't know.

I don't know musicals, but I do know Oliver.

We had that one.

Oh, well, that's very good.

And then, and were you and Kelly, though, had you already established that particular type of harmony that you do on a lot of your songs?

Just singing together.

I don't know.

We were harmonizing then.

And then we did second hand rose.

I'm singing second hand.

I don't know the words anymore.

We did that one too.

That's good.

You know what?

I heard you on Six Music talking about the fact that the first song you ever learned to play was King of the Road.

It is.

Which I'm trying to play it.

I can't play guitar.

And I'm learning to play King of the Road.

That's a good one to be the first one to learn, isn't it?

I just don't think my fingers are ever going to be able to move fast enough.

Well,

how fast are you trying to play the song?

I want it.

The guy on YouTube.

The guy on YouTube is...

Did it do.

Oh, God.

No, no, no, no.

That's not.

No, I don't know how to play that.

That's way too fancy.

So what are you playing then?

Just the chords?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you want me to get the one, the colorful one?

That one's in tune.

Which one is it to start with?

Cigarette saw, but two minutes.

I ain't got no cigarettes all, but.

Oh, you got a D minor seven?

Are you crazy?

No hole, no

pull, no pets.

I ain't got no cigarettes all, but two hours of push

of

T minor seven is hard for me.

Push and broom, guys.

Eight by twelve by four bit broom.

I'm a

man

of means by no means.

King of the road.

Very nice.

Do you remember what it was like to learn how to play guitar?

Did you learn quite quickly?

Were you quite a natural?

My dad was sitting in the chair.

It was his guitar.

Ah, right.

And he was taking lessons.

Is that going to be okay?

Yeah, that'll be good.

That made that mad.

And my dad was taking lessons and he had a little folder.

And I sat down, opened the folder, picked up the guitar, and began to look at the little, you know, these are cute.

These little boxes with the little fingers on it.

That's a puzzle thing.

Yeah.

So I started playing it.

Kimmy, you're going to learn guitar quicker than I am.

He never did learn how to play guitar.

Did he?

No, he didn't.

Is that West Virginia accent?

Kimmy, they didn't sound too West Virginia.

My mom did.

Sang into the microphone.

Kimmy sang.

She sounded so hillbilly.

Which celebrity has an accent that was similar to your parents'?

Nobody has an accent similar to my mom and dad.

No celebrity.

No.

No.

They were from the mountains and the hollers.

The Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia.

West Virginia, and it's...

Is that the Appalachians?

I guess there's a range in there, Blue Ridge.

I'm just thinking of the Laurel and Hardy song.

Oh, what is that?

From the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia, on the trail of the lonesome pine.

Am I getting the song?

Do you know the song?

It sounds familiar.

Do you sing pretty good?

No.

Were your family any singer?

Were your family singers?

My dad thought he was a good singer.

When he used to come to the carol service at school, he would sometimes record it.

And I still have tapes that my dad made.

And all you can hear is his voice booming over everybody else because he thought he was such a good singer.

Wait a minute, but

he was in the choir.

No, no, no.

He was just sitting in the choir.

It was just the Christmas carol service at the end of term.

And he would come along, and maybe like one year, I think I was in the choir.

And he came along and recorded it.

And all you can hear is once in Royal David City.

My dad just absolutely booming and drowning everyone else out.

Did he sound like that?

No, his voice was a bit higher.

It was a bit like that.

His voice, voice, a lot of the time.

Because he started out, he started out, he learned how to speak with an upper-class English accent.

Oh, that might not be helpful at all, really, when singing, is it?

He thought it was very helpful, and he sang very, very loudly.

Did your dad sing, though?

I think he could, but

he wouldn't.

He was depressionaire, West Virginia coal miner.

Was he an actual coal miner?

My brother was the first male deal that did not work the coal mines.

Really?

Mm-hmm.

Blimey.

Yeah.

My dad was on the mountain and it hit, you know, ricocheted back, and he always had these teeth with a replacement, you know, bridge piece.

Holy shit, that is well authentic.

Yeah, it is.

Isn't it weird?

We always have to.

Your dad's teeth were bashed in by a bit of ricocheting coal from the mine.

I didn't know a pickaxe that he was using and it ricocheted back into his mouth.

Even better.

Yeah.

I don't think my dad ever had any ricocheting pickaxe accidents.

No.

But then he went to Korea and he got the GI bill and then he became a math professor.

And then they moved up to Ohio because Wright-Patterson Air Force Base was hiring.

Right.

And he then became like a physicist and was in the director of the avionics lab.

So it wasn't, you know, it...

it wasn't uh what a journey yes it is isn't it yeah yeah that's amazing i was born in ohio ohio with kelly yeah my brother and everybody that i know and my family is from west virginia but i know you you grew up in huba heights that's right

30 000 community of brick homes right

swindling people what was it what was the average summer holiday afternoon like in huba heights what would you get up to the parents yelling at you to pick the dog poop up from the backyard yeah and do the chores on the refrigerator for like a nickel you know if i water the backyard flowers i get a nickel

Um, pick up your crap, that sort of regular thing, I think.

Yeah, happy times, yeah, totally.

And then playing on the street constantly.

Yeah, definitely.

But I just remember the like the first thing is like the hot sun with me picking up poop.

Of course, that's what I'm gonna remember.

Not the you know, the time we laughed when we got sprayed with the hose.

You know, that's not what I'm gonna get's gonna come up to me.

Yeah,

would you listen to the radio or would you listen to the

parents' radio?

It was AM A.M.

parents' radio at the time.

It was different back then, you know.

Sure.

It wasn't like you had your device and you just pick out whatever, you know, there was no autonomy about what you're going to listen to.

You listen to what's in the car.

So just, it's A.M.

I remember driving around and singing a lot to

I Honestly Love You,

Olivia Newton John, Rock the Boat, Don't Rock the Boat.

I don't know who does that one.

DeBaj.

Is it?

Is that?

Well, the Hughes Corporation originally.

Is it?

I think.

Was it

the Hughes Corporation?

The Rock the Boat Baby.

Yeah.

Weren't they from Philadelphia?

I don't know.

Probably, but why is.

Do you think there's a cover?

Yeah, there's loads.

No.

There was a big one in the 80s by DeBarge.

Oh, no.

No, I don't know.

No one.

That's way too late.

Hughes Corporation would have been the one that you were

going with, I reckon.

Yeah.

And

then high school, you know, Sab, then it became Zeppelin and Sabbath.

And did you, did you, when you were exposed to the hard rock, Kim, did you immediately respond positively?

Yeah, you know, disco was going on really heavy around then.

I graduated in 79.

So disco had been heavy.

And it was still heavy because we're in Ohio in Huber Heights.

So everything's, it's, there's no punk rock.

Right.

Don't believe anybody who tells you that we had a punk rock scene in Huber Heights.

We never did.

But anyway, so my brother was really into disco.

He had the white suit and they would go to the bars.

He was older than me and they were, but not that older, but they would dance and dance and they would have routines that they were due.

They were quite really good.

Wow.

Yeah.

But

I just like, if I had the t-shirt, it would have said disco sucks.

And I liked having, not having, it was hard rock back in the day.

And the Midwest has a huge tradition of hard rock.

Black Oak, Arkansas, coming through town.

Brownsville Station, coming through town.

Are these only American things?

Yeah.

Okay.

I don't know any of those.

Sammy Hagar Solo.

Sammy Hagar, I've heard of.

Right.

Before Halen was even, Van Halen was even a band.

Nugent coming through town.

Rush.

The Outlaws, Marshall Tucker Band.

I mean, would you go and see all of them?

Yeah, those are the ones that I saw.

And then there were tons that I didn't see.

Right.

God.

Who was the one that made the biggest impression then?

I watched, I think it was Marshall Tucker band.

And that was the one where I was sitting there and I noticed my sister was on the stage, sitting on the PA,

looking out this way.

And that was like, is that Kelly?

She was wild.

Was she quite a lot different to you?

Oh, yeah.

Don't tell her I said that.

All right.

That's so weird.

You're identical twins, right?

Yeah, we are.

I was born 11 minutes after her.

Okay.

Yeah.

And we're not very much alike at all.

Really?

Is that typical?

That's quite unusual, isn't it?

For twins to have such divergent personalities.

I don't think so.

I don't think so.

When I, I've, listen, I get so annoyed at people, you know, not being able to, you know, I'm not annoyed, but it's just like,

you can't tell us apart, blah, blah, blah.

And if you give me a pair of twins, I cannot tell them apart.

And I really don't care.

Will you, Linda, or Laura?

Whatever.

So so i do i feel like i just do the same thing yeah when my mom got older she just said you know twins are creepy but she was in dementia yes but you know

but the truth came out exactly exactly but the thing is though you would think that i would have more empathy and an ability to actually pick up the very subtle differences of the way twins look and they just like

that.

They are strange, magical creatures, twins, though, because it's like a glimpse of.

They're creepy.

It's a glimpse of what everyone.

Well, I don't know if it's everyone, but I've certainly had the fantasy of like, you know, when you're not able to relate to people, you feel isolated.

You sort of, when I was younger, I used to think, if only there was like me, if only I could just hang out with me and I could be best friends with me because I like me and we could just hang out together.

And that was, that was in the old days before I didn't like me.

You know what I mean?

Like when you start getting neurotic and the last person you want to hang out with is me.

That's right.

But there was a point when I just thought how wonderful it would be if my best friend could be exactly like me.

That would be wonderful and I still wish for that day sometime that Kelly could just agree with everything I say and think I'm wonderful and agree with me.

But is the bond between you

strong enough that it helps you overcome bad rows or have there been times when it's gone full, Liam and Noel?

It's gone gone bad and we have overcome it.

But a lot of it is just like, you know, do you know any sisters or brothers who are like a year apart, you know?

It's sort of like that.

We have a lot of things similar because we were in the homeroom in the same year.

Maybe in the same class because of our last name, because it's alphabetical.

It was anyway.

And then we were growing up exactly when, you know,

MASH's last episode airs.

So we have a lot of these things, as opposed to a brother who was seven years older, who has a totally different record collection.

And, you know, we didn't have that.

I didn't have that.

My brother is 18 months older.

Yeah.

So.

But is it fun now?

Is it still fun to be in a band with your sister?

It can be, it can be good, and it can also be really annoying.

I got to tell you.

It can be

like all of them.

Sometimes, you know, they can annoy me, but I can annoy them too.

Yeah.

But it is fun.

it is fun.

And we do enjoy all three of them, and we do have a good camaraderie.

This is the rest of the breeders we're talking about.

Yes, that I'm talking about.

That's right.

Yeah, good.

Well, you do.

I mean, I saw you the other day playing at the Troxy.

Sounded brilliant.

Yes.

Playing Last Splash stuff, as well as lots of other bits and pieces.

Yeah.

But it, oh, it sounded wonderful.

Yeah, good.

Thanks.

Why didn't you do Last Splash with Steve Albini?

I know that I wanted overdubs.

Yes.

I mean,

Kim is giving me a cheesy overdub grin,

as if she's admitting to something shameful.

I mean, I didn't want to be Steely Dan overdubs, but I did want to, like,

you know, maybe I can replay that guitar and we don't have to keep the actual track that played with the drums, you know.

So that's...

Steve's not going to cot into any of that nonsense.

Yeah.

Maybe I wanted to double on my vocal.

You don't need to double on your vocal, Kim.

I'll do it.

But you don't need it.

I don't achieve.

I mean, anything like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you just thought he wasn't going to tolerate the level of finesse that you thought would be nice.

If finesse, again, is like,

can we try another take?

Yeah.

You don't need to do another take.

There was nothing wrong with that one.

And you can hear, he's got whole things.

It's hilarious because it's exactly what I would say to him.

So, oh, you've got eight on the tape and you think they all sound good.

Yeah, let's do another one.

You know, and that would be me.

Yeah, these all sound great.

Let's go for nine.

So he totally doesn't want to get involved in that.

And I will totally do that.

So that's, it's, it's a good combination.

Yeah.

Poor thing.

Poor guy.

Having to deal with me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And his thing was always that he would make a faithful recording recording of the way a band was, for better or worse.

And did it sound that way to you when you heard it back?

Well, the thing that you said before, I think that he grew into that

philosophy.

That was something he did later in his life.

He had that formed.

But before, I think he was fully...

happy to do experiments.

We did some fun things.

We took some tools for a lead guitar solo.

We took some pliers and we had the guitar amped up

through a marshal really loud.

And then we just clipped the strings and it's going bing, bing, bing.

And then he would take the tape, the recording of that, and then he would

cut them and then take those piece,

turn it upside down.

put it in a wrong place in the timeline so when it's going to bing

and that's the lead guitar

which was it sound really cool you know yeah that's vamos presumably is it it is I think it is yeah I think I'd have to listen and know I think I could hear it if I listened to it So that was his, that's very experimental, you know?

Yeah, that's Wellstock House.

Yeah.

Have you ever met Neil Young and talked to him about things like that?

Because he's another one who's absolutely fundamentalist about it.

You know, I did see him down a long hallway when we played.

Pixies played Isle of White.

And him and Peggy were standing down the long hallway and i had a choice to make i could go back into this room that is mine or i can walk down the hallway and introduce myself to people who probably have no idea who i am but i could have done it they were trapped the hallway ended there they had you know i could have said that i could have done that and i didn't but i'll always remember that no i didn't meet him okay you took the higher ground

coward well it's not cowardly is it i mean you probably made the more mature choice to

feel like it.

Does it not?

No.

Oh, well, you'll have another one.

I think

they would have been really friendly.

I'm sure they would.

Yeah.

I just didn't, I couldn't get it.

He would have been into your stuff because he's always much more,

you know, like the superficial impression you get of Neil Young when you're starting out as a young music fan is that he's a sort of crusty old hippie guy.

But actually, you don't have any idea of how

open-minded he was and how sort of avant-garde his thinking about music was, which is how he could go off and do an album like Trans or whatever.

Yeah.

He was always into fooling around and being weird.

But yeah, he loves his special sounds.

Yeah, that's where I learned to actually

really get a grasp of guitar is the beginning guitar for Neil Young.

Ah, yeah.

And I had that book with me.

What songs would you play?

I would play Heart of Gold, you know, Needle in the Damaged Dumb, anything in the book, because here's why it's important for all the guitar players.

But now you can just look online.

Yeah.

But it's great to get songs that you know, and I knew them all because you can tell when you're making a mistake and you can stop and re-address it, you know.

So I knew how it went, and I could, and it's for easy guitar.

Don't do those little flicky things.

You don't need to do that.

Okay, that's a good tip.

Yeah.

Dee dee dee dee doo.

No.

I'm just trying to make my little finger do things that it doesn't want to.

Anyway, did I

down

the pic there?

Yeah.

It is.

Okay, this is going to be very slow.

No, it should be.

Oh, that's, and that's how the song starts right there?

Yeah.

That's the beginning intro of the song?

Yeah.

I don't remember that.

Dee-dee-de-dee-deo, dee-dee- and it's got the finger clicks.

Dee-dee-dee-doo.

Oh, right.

Oh, my God.

Dee-dee.

That's

yeah.

That's awesome.

That was really good.

Thanks very much.

I mean,

it's taken one year to get to that point.

That's great.

Hoot, do you make your kids do the finger snaps?

Because it's really helpful.

Do it again.

That's a good idea.

I could

get them around.

Okay.

Trailer

special rent

What is the word?

Rooms to rent for fifty cents

No mind

I ain't got no cigarettes all but two hours of pushing broom dies

eight by twelve by four is room I'm a

means by memo means

king of the road

etc.

That's great.

It is a good song, isn't it?

So it's so nice to talk to you, Kim.

Nice to talk to you.

I feel like I did actually write some questions down, and I hope you don't mind if I ask them in a more boring, straightforward way.

Do you mind?

No, not at all.

Sorry.

Okay, let's see.

I love the new record.

Thank you.

Do you know what it's called yet?

I think it's Nobody Call Loves You More.

Nobody Loves You More.

That's right.

Is this your first full-length solo record?

It is.

And it sounds quite different to anything you've done.

You've got some horny horns in there.

I do.

Can you imagine when I'm sitting there and I have these horns ideals in my head while I'm playing this song and I'm just like,

I think the horns would be good.

And I'm like, am I going to be a person who has trumpet on my record?

I don't think I can do that.

I told Josephine, I wrote this song, and I had a ukulele in my hand.

And she saw them looking at ukulele and she goes, absolutely not.

This is Josephine from The Breeders.

Because she's got, you know, she's not, I mean, not, and she isn't playing.

There's no, she's not going to be in the same room where a yuke is.

But you know what?

I don't blame her.

Am I going to be a person who has got a yuke?

But then

it doesn't stop.

It's still sitting there in the mind, isn't it?

Might as well try it.

I know what will work.

Oh, no, that didn't sound good.

Oh, I know what it does.

Here's what needs to happen: it needs to go this way, and then it will sound good.

And so it goes on and on

until I just wrangle it and make it sound the way it sounds in my head.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blue blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

conversation blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah

talking

so much

and then

You know, the label for your new record sent out very kindly in advance of my chat with you today a PDF of all the lyrics.

Oh.

Are you aware that they do that?

It doesn't surprise me.

How do you feel about that?

Because that encourages.

But do you get that from everybody, or am I special?

No, you're special.

I've never, I've talked to a few musicians before, and I've never been sent their lyrics.

They're going to be on an album.

Maybe they just like here.

Sure, yeah, that's what he needs.

It's very interesting, but I noticed it because often what happens with musicians is they don't really want to talk about the lyrics because it's too on the nose.

It encourages an interviewer to say, what's this song about?

And that's the question that I feel most musicians don't want to be asked.

Is that right?

Well, I don't know if they don't want to be asked it, but I think I would feel it put on the spot because there's really no real answer, you know, because there's like, it's not about like a piece of corn.

It's about the, you know, the smoke that happened when you cooked the corn.

It's like, here, let me show you, you know, then the smoke leaves.

It's like, let me show you the smoke that's all gone.

But here's a piece of corn.

I guess it's about this piece of corn.

But it's not about the piece of corn.

You see what I'm saying?

Yeah, very good analogy.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, the thing is that I'd already heard the album, and then I saw the lyrics, and actually seeing the lines there, and I'm thinking about the song Coast particularly.

Hit me.

I

had an impression of what I thought it was about.

And it really moved me because I totally made up my mind.

And then I read...

What you had said about it.

No, no, no.

I hate that when that happens.

That's okay.

I think it's like it when it happens to me.

I think it's still in there.

But maybe you were obfuscating when you explained it elsewhere.

Maybe I was right.

Well, there's a line.

Clearly, all my life I've been foolish, tried to hit hard, but I blew it.

That's a sort of painful line.

It is.

There's some painful yearning in the record.

I mean, I am sort of obsessed with failure.

Uh-huh.

I really am.

I've got this thing about it.

I don't know how I got involved in it.

I'm just so drawn to it.

It's so strange.

As a theme.

I don't, like, I'm not drawn to it as a theme.

I'm drawn to it emotionally.

And I don't know why.

Like, I'm looking at these old outlaws like George Jones or Whalen and all of these guys, but

there was a period of time where it was working for them.

And then they go into the third wife, the high liver enzymes yellowy dye the mutton chops the huge alimony payments and then the the aviator glasses and then they they look there's something about the bravado of the

and where they are now and maybe there's a pathos that i was just surrounded by it with my mom having the alzheimer's for like 12 years just fully long time

and then my dad dying too i mean going down to and just like every day, like cleaning up, you know, the poop and the

just living in this little thing in Ohio.

And I just, you know, and watching him lose his mind, and my mother and the failure of where we're all going

anyway.

I mean, it's all there for us.

It's all out there, ready to be snatched.

The failures are all ready for us.

There's something so sweet about it.

I think it's a really lovely,

maybe also peaceful, because there ain't nothing else to lose.

That's it.

And I think there's a quiet state in that.

It's kind of relaxing.

I don't know.

There's a song that sounds very much like it's about your mom and Alzheimer's.

Are you mine?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

She was walking around the house.

And she was pretty good.

She was walking.

She was getting dressed, I think, still.

And she would just do these things where she would just stop me in the hallway and go

are you mine

and I knew what she was talking about she

was I her baby doll is that I know that's yes mama I'm yours yes yeah it wasn't just like who are you I've never seen you before are you the caregiver it was like there was some sort of deep connection of mother that she didn't even know what a baby was or a mother was, but she was something in

that

that's mine.

It was so sweet, you know.

That's tough, man.

It is, man.

Are you mine?

Are you my baby?

I have no mind

for nothing but love

Are you mine?

Have you seen me lately?

I have no time.

I have no time.

Let me go

where there is no

memory.

Why everything

is new

and nothing

is true

What's it like recording a song about that kind of thing, though, to try and wrangle those feelings?

Because there's so much there.

There's the pain of seeing someone you love go through that.

Presumably, there's also some fear in there as well for your own future.

I mean, I always think about that kind of thing.

True.

I think I take after my dad more.

I think I'm going to miss it.

I think my brother's going to get it.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm fine with that because my mom had a banging body and she was really tall and thin and she had really thin wrists and ankles and a really nice torso.

And my brother got all of that.

And I took after my dad, so I'm like, you got the Alzheimer's, that's good.

We're cool.

Push.

It's a very lovely song.

And it's very, yeah, it's...

It's sort of everything you would want from a song, really.

Thanks.

And

I admire it.

I've been trying to write songs, but as as a

having a comedic background, it's so difficult to try and write anything serious, you know.

I thought comedians had this

core

of pain that they worked off of humor.

Wouldn't that core be helpful?

Yeah, but it's a question of accessing it without it being excruciatingly shit.

Oh, it...

Oh no, it's going to be excruciatingly shit until you...

It's going to be bad first.

Okay, right.

You just have to get through it.

It's going to definitely be bad.

Everything I do is really bad at first, and then it gets better.

Like it's like, oh, yeah, I see why that's bad.

I'll put that away and never touch a guitar again.

Okay.

Really, you feel like that?

Maybe not about guitar, but definitely about like writing.

Yeah.

And yeah.

Hey, how are you doing, podcasts?

Just stepping in to introduce this final short section of Chat with Kim, which was recorded in the green room of the Rio Cinema in Dalston back in October of this year.

Just after I had interviewed Kim on stage for an event to tie in with the release of her album, and by way of a small plastic thank you, I gave her my Commander Data figurine, which I'd had for many years.

And I thought that maybe it would find a good home with her.

I got you a gift.

I hope it's not too annoying to transport.

Oh, I'd love it.

But it's fun.

It's my Commander Data doll.

It's Data.

Is this your doll?

Yeah, I've had it for years and years.

What?

But then, when you came over the other day and we were

talking on the podcast, I saw you admiring it.

And I don't get to meet too many Trekkies.

This is from your personal collection.

Yes.

I'm honoured.

You're welcome.

Oh, my God.

And Commander Data was my favourite in the Next Generation because I love robots.

Yeah.

Do you really?

Yeah, I do, yeah.

Really?

Do you?

Oh, yeah.

He was at my Picard, I think, was mine.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

I like Picard.

You're like a nice bald guy.

Wow.

Yeah.

I'm going to be bald soon.

Really?

Yeah.

That's exciting.

I know.

Yeah.

Give me a call.

Yeah.

See how it works.

But I love data because, you know, for a lot of men, a robot is a very relatable figure because it's like

someone who's trying to find emotions and deal with emotions.

That's a powerful allegory for being a man.

It's true, actually.

I never thought about it though.

It's true.

But then you have Seven of a Nine, Voyager, the

Borg.

I like her too.

She's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like the captain again.

I like Janeway best.

Yes.

That's my favorite.

Really?

Maybe I just like like

she's not a popular captain.

In the trekking.

In the cannon, yeah.

I think they're wrong.

Maybe.

I think it's just like the Hillary bullshit.

Do you know what I'm saying?

But she shrieks, her voice is too high.

She sounds yelly.

Yeah, but fuck you.

Janeway never

dismissed the Kardashians as a basket of deplorables.

They fucking are.

Fuck them.

They're horrible.

The Kardashians.

No, I meant...

The Kardashians or the Kardashians.

The Kardashians are fine.

Kardashians are fine.

The Kardashians.

The Kardashians.

They're a basket of deplorables in the universe.

I never, I always fast-forwarded over the

Klingon.

I never liked the Klingon episode.

Really?

No.

Oh, I loved him.

Too musky.

Too musky.

Yeah, I don't like him.

Yeah, he's definitely going to be musky.

And what about, what was her name?

The Empath?

Deanna.

Oh, Deanna.

Yeah.

I liked her.

You know, she was sort of a side character.

I mean, she wasn't in every scene.

She, you know, she was there.

I like her.

She's quite a caricature of women, though, isn't she?

Women like chocolate.

Women feel things.

Yeah, yeah.

That's what the women are like.

Yeah, she's all soft and round.

Yeah.

And she's sweet and gentle.

And she senses things.

She does.

Yeah.

What was your favorite episode?

Of which one?

Next Generation.

Next Generation, there was one that's famous in the Breeders Canon.

And it's where Beverly, Josephine's favorite was Dr.

Beverly Crusher.

And she gets trapped in a bubble.

Do you remember the bubble that she gets trapped in?

No.

It's not the most famous one, but it's one that we really like.

A literal bubble.

She was trapped in some sort of...

Temporal bubble.

Temporal bubble.

Yeah.

So it's usually temporal bubble.

And that was the fame.

That's famous.

She's trapped in a bubble.

Really?

I think Josephine thought

it spoke to her.

Being in Ohio,

you know how Josephine is, and she's got that posh accent, and she's like, you know.

And she's there in Ohio with the deplorables and she's having to stay there for weeks and weeks and weeks.

I think she felt...

And Beverly Kusher was her favorite.

Right.

Yeah.

Did you?

With the red hair, maybe?

I don't know.

Did the breeders sit around and watch Star Trek Next?

I mean,

the rehearsal stopped.

And you can ask Josephine this.

When it started, when it was on, because it used to go on, you know, we were old enough that it was on air.

We had to stop.

Yeah.

We watched Next Generation and then we could resume rehearsal.

That's right, because you were in prime Next Generation territory.

So Last Splash comes out in 93, and I think around then you're getting some of the best Borg episodes, aren't you?

Yeah,

maybe it's.

92 is when we were in working, that's when we would have been doing it.

It's a bit earlier, the Borg stuff, isn't it?

yeah i like the idea of you all sitting around watching next generation i would have been

and i as you were watching star trek next generation with the breeders i was sitting at home

listening to the pixies

in the early 90s in my art college dorm room yeah

and um that final episode where they all sit round playing poker

Do you remember that one?

I don't, I don't remember.

If I saw it, I would probably go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you remember they used to play poker?

Yeah.

And Picard never really joined in the poker games.

Oh.

And then eventually in the final episode, he sits down and he says, I should have done this a long time ago.

It's very emotional.

What a show, though.

It was great.

I loved it.

Yeah.

All right, I'm going to let you go now.

Anyway, take care of Commander Data and don't feel bad if you feel you have to leave it behind or give it away.

No.

Give it to a child.

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Continue.

I

need to tell

Hey, welcome back, podcasts.

That was Kim Deal, little tiny bonus moment of Kim singing a little section from Nobody Loves You More while I was hooking up the mics for our podcast ramble, which I really enjoyed.

It was great to meet Kim, and I'm so grateful to her for making the time.

Thank you as well to her team from 4AD, Annette and Billy, especially.

Thank you very much for helping to sort everything out.

If you go to my blog, adam-buxton.co.uk, I'll put a link in the description.

You'll be able to see, along with the post for this episode, a picture of me and Kim, and also a picture of my Commander Data doll, which originally I think maybe we got sent back in Adam and Joe show days when we were doing an item on figurine physiques the changing world of action figure physiques talking about the fact that when I had Star Wars figures as a youngster they were all spindly and little and then in the 90s they all started to bulk up You will also find on my blog post for this episode a load of videos for music by Kim from various parts of her career.

So you can immerse yourself if you're a Kim Deal fan or if you want to find out more.

Let me tell you, it's a wonderful world to explore.

Okay, I've got to emerge from my shelter in the woods here and get back home fairly soon.

But before I do, a handful of recommendations for uplifting movies.

And before I share these with you, let me tell you, if you're a regular listener, that last week I think it was Jessica Napitt recommending the film Vacation.

Not a remake, remake, but a new installment in the vacation universe that came out in 2015, I think.

Anyway, I was saying that it's got terrible reviews online.

But we watched it last weekend, me and my whole family, and we really laughed.

There's a Guardian review I came across that said, you will laugh at this film, but you'll feel guilty.

That's the Guardian all over for you, isn't it?

I'm sorry, but you will have to feel guilty.

I understand what they mean, but it is funny.

I mean, you might watch it and just think, no, this is this is terrible, but there's a lot of funny bits.

There's definitely some revolting stuff in there.

So don't go in if you're easily grossed out.

So I'm going to go with Jessica Napit and

point you in the direction of that one, vacation.

But here's a couple of recommendations from friends of the podcast.

Jane Goldman, screenwriter, and she knows her movies.

Jane says, My favorite uplifting movies that that come to mind immediately would be Meet Me in St.

Louis or St.

Louis, especially at Christmas.

Haven't seen Meet Me in St.

Louis.

Amelie, she says, and Lars and the Real Girl, the latter being such an underrated gem that I think a lot of people probably avoided because it seems like it might be crass or silly, but it's actually an incredibly sweet and moving story about community and connection.

And I watched that last night on Jane's recommendation and enjoyed it.

It is a sweet movie directed by Craig Gillespie.

And I think I did avoid it at the time because it seems like, oh, do I really want to watch a film about a guy who goes out with a sex doll?

It just seemed like weekend at Bernie's or something, but it's not like that at all.

Starring Ryan Gosling, Emily Mortimer, written by Nancy Oliver.

That's Lars and the Real Girl.

Thank you very much though, Jane, for getting back to me with those recommendations.

Now finally, here's comedian Tim Key.

Here's three cast iron bangers for you.

Victoria, which is the German crime thriller, done in one shot.

Then I would like Safety Last, Harold Lloyd with the clock stuff, but a lot more.

And then the other one, I would say,

well, nuts in May, basically.

There we go.

Thank you very much, Tim.

I've seen two of those.

Safety Last, the Harold Lloyd film, amazing silent movie, directed by Fred C.

Neumeier and Sam Taylor from 1923.

It's a silent romantic comedy starring Harold Lloyd as a small town boy who moves to the big city to make his fortune and impress his sweetheart.

Working as a department store clerk, he devises a publicity stunt to draw customers by climbing across the building's exterior.

Chaos ensues as the climb becomes increasingly perilous, culminating in the iconic scene where he dangles from a clock clock high above the city.

And it is a tour de force of sight gags and crazy black and white slapstick madness fun.

I've also seen Nuts in May, directed by Mike Lee.

It's a classic.

1976, especially in the comedy world, I think everyone certainly of my generation reveres that film and was heavily influenced by it in one way or another.

Director Mike Lee's iconic tale of camping holidays and all the the hazards involved.

Keith, played by Roger Sloman, and Candice Marie, played by Alison Stedman, both of them amazing, arrive at a Dorset campground for 10 nights of idyllic bliss.

The other film that Tim recommended there, Victoria, directed by Sebastian Schipper from 2015, I have not seen, a thriller about a young Spanish woman in Berlin who meets a group of friends on a night out only to get drawn into a dangerous bank robbery.

It's one of those dangerous bank robberies, not a nice safe one, that spirals out of control.

Filmed in a single continuous take, the film captures the raw intensity and emotional stakes of the unfolding chaos.

That sounds stressful, but Tim finds that uplifting.

So there you go, that's some more recommendations for uplifting movies.

And you'll find trailers for all those movies on my blog.

Thank you very much, Tim.

Thanks, Jane.

And thanks very much once again to Kim Deal.

Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support and conversation editing on this episode.

Thanks to Helen Green, she does the beautiful artwork for the podcast.

Thanks to everyone at ACAST, but thanks most of all to you guys for sticking around.

I appreciate it.

Come here, let's have a hug.

Until next time, please go carefully.

And for what it's worth, I love you.

Bye.

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like and subscribe.

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Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

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