Sunday Special: The Best Music of 2025

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Speaker 2 I'm Gilbert Cruz. This is the Sunday Special.

Speaker 2 For the last few episodes of 2025, we're looking back on the year in culture. Today, we're talking about music.
There were so many albums and songs released throughout the year.

Speaker 2 We're going to talk about some of the biggest and best with two people who are immersed in music pretty much every single day. Karen Gans is the pop music editor here at The Times.
Hello, Karen.

Speaker 2 Hello, Gilbert. And Lindsay Zolads is a pop music critic here.
Hello, Lindsay. Welcome back to the show.
Thanks for having me back.

Speaker 2 So to kick things off,

Speaker 2 I'm going to start a sentence and you're going to complete it. Okay.
So for music, 2025 was blank.

Speaker 2 Fill in the blank.

Speaker 3 It was a bummer year for me, Gilbert. Honestly, it really was.
I know. I'm sorry.
We're starting off on a sour note.

Speaker 2 We're going to, things are going uphill.

Speaker 3 The rocket ship takes off after I finish this initial answer. I was making my own best of lists, and I was like, I have had the hardest time this year.
I think the hardest time ever.

Speaker 3 And I'm going to say 25 years of professional list making. Oh, my God.
Because last year it was like Billie Eilish and Beyonce. The year before that, it was Olivia Rodrigo and 100 gags.

Speaker 3 Like, there were just these obvious giant things that had such a strong impact on me. And when I was making my list this year, I was like, uh-oh.

Speaker 3 So to me, overall, there were a lot of records I was expecting to be great. They were a little lesser than I anticipated.
I'm going to say a year of disappointment.

Speaker 2 I'll take the flip side of that. I'll try to spin it more optimistically.
Thank you. Just so just so we're not stuck in the mud here.

Speaker 3 Everyone's going to get mad at me.

Speaker 2 No, but I don't think you're wrong. I think

Speaker 2 in terms of the mainstream, it was a very stagnant year.

Speaker 2 And I think some of the biggest blockbusters of the year, you know, were huge in a commercial sense, but I found lacking artistically. Yes.

Speaker 2 But the flip side of that is that I, you know, had some time and space in my year end list to pay attention to things that were going on like under the radar, which I always am as a critic.

Speaker 2 But I think because there was such a void of the big marquee names this year, it really.

Speaker 2 presented an opportunity to dig a little deeper, find some new things that were unexpected, and come up with a list that felt a little more personal.

Speaker 2 I think it was a year where there was not a big consensus pick or even a few consensus picks of the album of the year.

Speaker 2 So I think out of that void and disappointment, if you will, there can also be a bright side.

Speaker 2 So it sounds like there wasn't necessarily a quote album of the year this year, but there were several sort of big, big releases that I think the three of us were sort of big fans of.

Speaker 2 uh i want to start with

Speaker 2 the star of our upcoming super bowl halftime show bed bunny

Speaker 2 he had a huge huge album this year called uh debitirad masphotos

Speaker 2 It was one of your picks, Lindsay. Tell me why you loved it.
I love it.

Speaker 2 I consider it it in the league of what Beyoncé has been doing recently, where it's an album that is very informed by musical history and certain musical lineages.

Speaker 2 You know, Beyoncé in the Renaissance album and Cowboy Carter, these two records that she's put out recently that feel, you know, very curated and like a conversation with the history of dance music, the history of country music.

Speaker 2 I hear about Bunny doing that with the history of Puerto Rican music on this record.

Speaker 2 It's really mining the past in this way that feels very personal but also very contemporary. It never feels like homework to listen to.

Speaker 2 So I think it's very cool that you have A-listers making records like this that just feel so

Speaker 2 in conversation with the past, but still feel so present and even forward-looking in a lot of ways, too. And he also had a song that referenced Juan Soto.

Speaker 2 I mean, that definitely tipped the scales in my direction. That's what I thought.

Speaker 2 That's what I thought.

Speaker 3 I was going to say, I loved. He had talked about in our interview that John and Joe did on popcast in January about how so many of the people that played instruments on the record were really young.

Speaker 3 Like we're talking 18, 19, 20. And they were, you know, bringing in the songs of their past, but really, I think just by virtue of their youth, they're imbuing them with some sort of new spirit.

Speaker 3 I love hearing these sort of like a few electronic plinks and things making their way in with all the instruments.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's it's intergenerational in that way that you're talking about too. And I think you hear that, you know, Bad Bunny also has talked about it's

Speaker 2 it's sort of him going back to his parents or his grandparents' generation of music, certain sounds that you associated with like older people, quote unquote, and you get to a certain age and you really start to appreciate that.

Speaker 2 So I think while he's working in a very specific lineage and like referencing a specific culture, I think that's such a universal experience that is part of the reason this album resonates well beyond and has really, I think, expanded his fan base even more.

Speaker 2 It surprised me how much this album in particular was the one that finally sold me on Bed Bunny.

Speaker 2 I didn't really get into his past few ones, but I sort of feel like I need to go back and re-experience the whole thing, the whole oeuvre.

Speaker 2 All right, let's move on to something that you two

Speaker 2 really in particular loved.

Speaker 2 I guess I'm putting my paws up. I don't really know what that means.

Speaker 2 But I know that Lady Gaga made both of your lists. Tell us about Mayhem, her latest album.
Karen, I know you could talk for like two hours about this. I can.

Speaker 3 Do you want me to start? Because then you're in danger.

Speaker 2 Watch talk for like four minutes.

Speaker 3 Okay, I'll give you, I'll do even less. I'm first, you know, the biggest mea culpa because when it came out, I was like, I don't like this.
It's not living up to the expectations I had.

Speaker 3 I was a little bit negative.

Speaker 3 And then I went to see the tour with Lindsay because she was reviewing Mayhem. And

Speaker 3 all of the strands of Gaga's entire career suddenly connected for me. Go get your friends and meet me on the floor.

Speaker 3 You're out of candy. I can get you more.

Speaker 3 And it made me love the album in a way that I really didn't expect to. So it's still flawed in my mind.
It's like the bad songs to me are just really clunkers.

Speaker 3 But overall, I really do see it as a sort of reinvention and but plugging into the things that made her so invigorating in the first place.

Speaker 3 You know, like just really core, interesting, grindy dance music.

Speaker 2 What's one song in particular that really sold you?

Speaker 3 Abracadabra, single number two, which was one of the biggest hits from the album this year. Abracadabra, I'm a moonlight.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's a good song.

Speaker 3 This song has something that Lindsay and I both really appreciate about Lady Gaga, which is like made-up nonsense.

Speaker 2 I was just going to say the nonsense versus back.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 And it's something she, I don't want to say originated, but it's a throwback to bad romance. It's a throwback to the fame era.

Speaker 3 The song Shaise, where she says, I don't speak German, but but I can if you'd like, and then speaks fictional German.

Speaker 2 That's a very specific Lady Gaga thing we both love to use.

Speaker 2 Her recurrent wish to learn German that comes up in multiple songs. Poolongos.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I think what I really like about Abrakadabra in particular, it's she's playing around with this concept of fan service that we hear a lot about these days.

Speaker 2 That sort of meaning you're pandering to your fans. You're giving them exactly what they want at a time when fans can be very vocal online, that you're getting instant feedback as an artist.

Speaker 2 I think fan service is a term usually used derisively,

Speaker 2 but I find

Speaker 2 the best parts of mayhem to be the best kind of fan service, which is that her fans have just wanted her to go back to making these dark electronic pot bangers for a long time now.

Speaker 2 We're about to be up on that, waking

Speaker 2 She's swerved a bit.

Speaker 2 She's dipped a toe in that world.

Speaker 2 But this is her just committing to the sound that made her famous, but bringing a certain maturity and a level of expertise to that sound that I think just elevates it from some of the earliest stuff that made us all fall in love with her in the first place.

Speaker 2 All right. I did not expect to be saying this, but there was another pop star this year who ended up on a lot of lists, song list, album lists.
That was Justin Bieber.

Speaker 2 Who knew? It's been four years since this last record, and people liked it. What stood out to you about this?

Speaker 2 So, Bieber released actually two whole albums, two double albums, do it? A lot of music, let's just say. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Under the name swag, swag one and swag two.

Speaker 2 And I didn't think all of that was successful, but I think the highlights for me,

Speaker 2 including the song Daisies, which was a big hit this year and which was one of my favorite singles of the year, really worked.

Speaker 2 This album and this song in particular finds Bieber working with some new collaborators and producers. the producer and musician Dijon and the guitarist McGee.

Speaker 2 These are artists that have slightly more experimental indie adjacent sounds. Those are not really words you generally describe Justin Bieber with.
Yep.

Speaker 2 So it was him sort of trying something different and then also these collaborators who tend to make a little more avant-garde music working with one of the biggest pop stars in the world still.

Speaker 2 And I found that tension between all of those collaborators to be really fruitful. And I really like the way Bieber sounds on some

Speaker 2 songs that don't sound as polished as the pop hits that we're used to associating him with. And I think Daisy's just sounds unfinished and demo-like in this really intriguing way.

Speaker 2 And it felt like a really interesting swerve for Bieber because you're still getting that recognizable, smooth Bieber voice, but with these rougher textures of the instrumentation.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I think what you said, even though you were surprised to hear his name pop up here, you know, like he had just been a tabloid fixture for the past two or three years.

Speaker 3 People, you know, we're talking about his relationship with his former manager, Scooter Braun, his wife, he had a child.

Speaker 3 I think he had been so caught up as a cog in the pop machine for so long that what I like best about this record is that he just sounds extremely loose and like himself.

Speaker 3 I'm not the biggest bleber. Is that what they call them? I'm not the biggest Bieber fan.
The swag wouldn't be on my list, but it is really refreshing to hear him in this new context with these new

Speaker 3 producers and voices. And it seems like

Speaker 3 the world is open to him now. He just needs to sort of step back in.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So we talked about Bad Bunny and Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber. Those are all three.

Speaker 2 Big, pretty established artists. But I'm curious what you thought about new music from some people who only broke out more recently.
I'm thinking specifically of Chapel Rohn and Sabrina Carpenter.

Speaker 2 They are artists who had big 2024s. What did you think of their music this year?

Speaker 3 Lindsay and I have talked about this a lot, but you know, when you have a blockbuster year as a new artist, you really have to decide what your next move is.

Speaker 3 Are you going to give people more, you know, and try to seize the moment, or are you going to step back a little bit and like, you know, sort of more

Speaker 3 slowly calculate your next move? And Sabrina and Chappell did the two opposite things. So Chapel only put out two songs this year.

Speaker 2 You ain't got to tell

Speaker 3 The Giver, which is sort of like a country jam.

Speaker 3 And The Subway, which is

Speaker 3 more of an anthemic, a little bit of a power ballad.

Speaker 3 And I thought both of those songs were just like very well selected. Two great, carefully considered considered songs.
And I think Sabrina's move was like, hey, you guys liked short and sweet.

Speaker 3 Here is round two.

Speaker 3 And I don't think that that album was quite as successful. There is a bit of shtick to her music.
And I think that it played off perfectly on the first record.

Speaker 3 And the second record, it's a little like, okay, but now I need the next iteration.

Speaker 2 Yeah, those two artists really embody the two different paths you can take after a breakout year. And I think it was a year light on breakout stars, especially in comparison to last year.

Speaker 2 But someone I would also add to this mix is Dochi, who, believe it or not, her breakout Grammy performance that I think was the first time a lot of people got to see her perform or really like were introduced to her was in 2025.

Speaker 2 What's up, Dochi?

Speaker 3 Why don't you tell the Grammys what's been going on?

Speaker 2 Remember old dude from 2019?

Speaker 2 Feels like she's been, yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was this Grammys.

Speaker 2 Yeah, the Grammys are at the very beginning. Okay, they're at the beginning.
This year has been too long. February,

Speaker 2 I agree. I agree.

Speaker 2 That was an amazing performance.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. So she was incredibly famous this year, someone who suddenly has a very high profile.
And she also

Speaker 2 chose to just lean more into the music she had already put out. She did a tour that Karen and I both got to see

Speaker 2 on her mixtape, Alligator Bites Never Heal. And she seems like someone who's confident in taking her time.

Speaker 2 It's so easy to just put out music. You know, there's just a slow drip of music constantly coming out.
And to go back to Bieber releasing basically every

Speaker 2 song he recorded for Twag. And, you know, in the streaming era, more is considered more.

Speaker 2 And I think what was refreshing about Chapel Rone and Dochi following these years with a little bit of withholding, a little bit of, I'm going to give you the next thing when I'm ready,

Speaker 2 not I'm just going to throw everything out there and see what sticks. So I think they're approaching their careers in a more considered way.

Speaker 2 And that makes me more excited for what they do have coming next.

Speaker 3 I will say, in a note of support for Sabrina, she really is just sort of like a real showgirl. You know, she was a TV star and she's just like an all-round entertainer.

Speaker 3 So she had started an arena tour and she continued it to start adding stuff from her new album. And, you know, it's pretty tough to translate a newish album or two on the arena stage.

Speaker 3 The interesting thing about Dochi and Chappell and a couple other people I saw this year is that they were like in mid-sized venues. They didn't go the arena route.

Speaker 3 You know, you're not watching a screen really when you're in a place like Forest Hills, which is where we saw Chapel. You're pretty much watching the stage.

Speaker 3 So if Sabrina had to sort of be larger than life, I think she's just a little bit of a different kind of entertainer, more of an entertainer than anyone else.

Speaker 2 Sure. And I did, while I didn't love Man's Best Friend, the whole album she put out, she had one of my favorite hits of the year in Man Child.

Speaker 2 Love that song. She, to make the most obvious pivot known to man, was not the only showgirl that we're going to talk about.

Speaker 2 There was an album that came out this fall that everyone was excited for someone at the new york times actually really loved it one of our critics his name is john karamatica um the two of you a little less hot on taylor swift's the life of a showgirl you're sweeter than a peach boy you don't know the life of a showgirl babe and you're never ever gonna which was

Speaker 2 the numbers are crazy record-breaking album you know it's sort of been riding the top of the charts since it came out uh early this fall this is a confounding release.

Speaker 3 Confounding

Speaker 3 it really is though, because it's exactly what you just said. It is one of the most popular albums that has ever arrived.
The single is huge.

Speaker 3 The fate of aphilia. You hear it everywhere.
It's been number one for weeks.

Speaker 3 But the conversation around Taylor shifted so hard on this album, whereas a few albums ago, people were so scared to say a negative word about her that Paste reviewed the album with like no byline because they were worried that their writer was going to get doxxed.

Speaker 3 And now on this album, I think people felt really free to start taking shots at her. I do not hate this album by any stretch.
Like, I actually find it very listenable.

Speaker 3 But a lot of the lyrical content, some of the other stuff in the album turned people off, and they actually said it.

Speaker 3 So this is like this weird moment where she is like the most popular person ever to walk the earth, but she's also being more criticized than she ever has been.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 is it because she is the most popular person person that's the pop star that's ever walked in? I mean, she's coming off this crazy tour. She's finally engaged.

Speaker 2 She finally went out a podcast and now she puts this album out. Everyone's like, ah, it's fine.

Speaker 3 I think it's partially that she set us up for slightly different expectations. And this has happened many times in pop history.
I'm going to take you back.

Speaker 3 Do you remember when the Killers put out their second album? It was called Samstown.

Speaker 2 I do. Is that the one where we're like, this is the Springsteen album? Is that?

Speaker 3 Yes, but the thing I recall best was that Brandon Flowers was doing press and he was like, this is the best album ever. You're going to love this album.
Nothing is better.

Speaker 3 And then the album came out and people were like, it's not that good. And it's not that good would have been just fine had he not set us up with his expectation that it was the best thing ever.

Speaker 3 Taylor promised us like 12 concise pop bangers.

Speaker 2 I'm going to say

Speaker 2 I believe it was her not then fiancé who said they're all bangers. He did.
Yeah. Yeah.
But they didn't. So blame Travis.
Blame.

Speaker 2 Yeah. We'll blame.

Speaker 3 I will happily blame Travis Kelsey for this. But there were just expectations expectations about what it might sound like based on her past collaborations with Max Martin and his team.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I think people's initial response was like, hey, it's not exactly what you promised. And then they were like, hey, I don't really like what you're saying on a couple of these songs.

Speaker 3 And hey, like, you know, why are you singing about his manhood and things like that?

Speaker 2 Oh, boy.

Speaker 3 I used a euphemism.

Speaker 2 She's in love. She's in love.
Sexuality is a big part of human life, okay? Is she supposed to deny it?

Speaker 3 But that has never really been a core part of the Taylor Swift proposition.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't like it. I don't like like it at all.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 This was kind of a hard pivot. Yeah, and I think another, because I agree that there was a turning point in the way that this album was received and talked about.

Speaker 2 And I think there was just a level of cultural exhaustion that people were feeling around Taylor Swift the celebrity, if not Taylor Swift the musician. And I think something.

Speaker 2 that did not really do this record a service was how much this became

Speaker 2 about

Speaker 2 other things, not just the music. And

Speaker 2 I'm thinking specifically of the AMC film, the film. Oh my God.

Speaker 2 And something kind of clicked for me when I was there watching it and then watching essentially glorified lyric videos that another artist would have just uploaded to YouTube and been done with it.

Speaker 2 You know, paying $20 to go see this in a theater felt a little just gross to me, honestly. And that experience, which I think she bills as this communal experience for her fans,

Speaker 2 but she's still charging them.

Speaker 2 It was very cynical, very cynical. Yeah.
And I think the reception of that move was pretty negative.

Speaker 2 And the way it was sort of tied into this album, like I, when I think about the life of a showgirl, the cultural phenomenon, the the music is not the first thing that's coming to mind.

Speaker 2 And I don't know, yeah, if Karen, you're nodding.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you're 100% right, Lindsay. The conversation about this album was really not about the album.

Speaker 2 I think that's true, but it is also true that the life of a showgirl was Billboard's number one album of the year. And, you know, Morgan Wallen's On the Problem was number two.

Speaker 2 That pair really dominated the charts.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it really was the year of Taylor and Morgan Wallen. On the album chart, not a lot broke through this year, you know, thus my year of disappointment.

Speaker 3 But there were some one-offs where something would be number one for a week, and it was like a very brief thrill. Like Gaga was number one for a week.
Tyler the Creator had a week at number one.

Speaker 3 Cardi B, it was just like a lot of people were kind of in and out.

Speaker 3 The Swedish metal band Ghost got a week.

Speaker 2 No, I don't know who that is. Oh my God.

Speaker 3 Well, we'll have to revisit this. But they're a separate ghost pod? I mean, we could.
They are, they're masked metal. They're mysterious.
They have no names. You're not supposed to know who they are.

Speaker 2 And I definitely don't. You don't.

Speaker 3 Ghost sounds like

Speaker 3 very poppy metal.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yes.
I could be into that.

Speaker 3 I went to the show at MSG. It was a no-phones show at MSG.
Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 You get to put it in the little pouch?

Speaker 3 Put in the pouch. Yeah.
Wow. I reached for that pouch a hundred times because I just wanted to take video because it was so crazy.
Amazing pyro guys in skeleton masks, you know, like noodling away.

Speaker 3 Very frustrating that I could not capture that. But anyway, they're fantastic.

Speaker 2 All right. We are going to take a quick break.
And when we come back, we are going to talk about some of the other music we love this year, some stuff that maybe was a bit more under the radar.

Speaker 2 I kind of think we should play some ghosts to take us out.

Speaker 2 This is great.

Speaker 3 I love it. You're going to add to my Halloween playlist.

Speaker 2 Oh, you really do.

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Speaker 2 So Lindsay, you just put together your best of lists for albums and songs, which people can find in the show notes. But considering it's been a weird year in music, what popped out to you?

Speaker 2 What stood out to you in your lists? So as I was compiling these lists, I noticed some micro trends emerge.

Speaker 2 The rise of the producer as artist, I think is a trend that we've seen over the past two years.

Speaker 2 One example of that from my list this year was Dijon, who we mentioned was a producer on the Justin Bieber album, also made an appearance on Bonnie Ver's album, which was on my list as well.

Speaker 2 Dijon is both a solo artist and a rather forward-thinking producer, does a lot of really fragmented, kind of

Speaker 2 almost like shattered glass version of pop songs that just have all these interesting shapes. And Dijon's own solo album, Baby, was also on my list.

Speaker 2 It's a really unique

Speaker 2 just fusion of all sorts of different types of sounds. They're songs that kind of turn into something else midway through, but it's also grounded in this experience of new fatherhood.

Speaker 2 It's a record that Dijon made about he and his partner having a kid.

Speaker 2 And there's something really,

Speaker 2 really lived in and kind of tactile about the lyrics and the perspective on the album combined with these really avant-garde sounds that, you know, I think make the record really compelling.

Speaker 2 Is that something that needs to be listened to sort of as an album all the way through?

Speaker 2 Because when I was experiencing it, it felt like a full thing, not that I could just pull out a couple tracks here and there.

Speaker 2 I think more than almost anything else on my list, I would say that about baby.

Speaker 2 And I think he

Speaker 2 thought of it. I almost said conceived, but I didn't want that pun.

Speaker 2 Too late. Oh, no.

Speaker 2 I think he really is someone who's thinking about the larger shape of an album.

Speaker 2 But I think the flip side to the sort of producer-artist hybrid is that sometimes it can be difficult to translate the kind of studio rat energy into a compelling live show.

Speaker 2 And I found Dijon as a live performer was fine, but his show didn't really grab me as a great

Speaker 2 show.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And so as producers become sort of musical celebrities in their own right, how much charisma do you need when you're used to sort of taking a back seat to another star?

Speaker 3 It's not easy to be a front man.

Speaker 3 But I agree that Dijon record is very like enveloping. And I think part of what was less successful about the live show is that there is this sort of like broken up stop-start nature to a lot of it.

Speaker 2 Even if I heard my show,

Speaker 3 you know, he's obviously very indebted to Prince. You'd be getting sort of like a Prince-like funky vibe, and then he would change it up.

Speaker 2 Let him on fire.

Speaker 2 Let him on fire.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Which is interesting and it keeps you on your toes, but it was maybe maybe a little bit of a less successful live experience.

Speaker 2 Lindsay, I know you on your list wrote about, let's say, next generation, a new generation of New York City rock bands that are coming out. One of them is a band named Geese.

Speaker 2 And I have thoughts, but I'd love to hear your thoughts first. Oh, Karen has thoughts too.
And we all have thoughts about geese.

Speaker 2 Actually, my album of the year is Geese's album, Getting Killed. Great album title.
Geese Getting Killed. Um, I love this record.

Speaker 2 I find it just exhilaratingly inventive and strange, and it just feels like a whole sonic world that you step into from the opening track.

Speaker 2 I've played it so many times over the past few months.

Speaker 2 And geese are,

Speaker 2 geese is,

Speaker 2 geese is, geese are.

Speaker 2 Geese is a band of astoundingly, depressingly young people from Brooklyn. I think everyone in the band is 23.

Speaker 2 And this is their third album. So they've been at it for a while.
They're

Speaker 2 helmed by the vocal stylings of frontman Cameron Winter,

Speaker 2 Which I think in my blurb, I likened to cilantro in that some people love it, and then some people have the gene where it tastes like soap to them.

Speaker 2 And I think I'm getting the impression that I'm sitting with two of them right now. You don't know what I'm going to say.
This is true, and I can't wait to hear.

Speaker 2 But I love Cameron Winter's voice.

Speaker 2 He released a solo album at the end of last year called Heavy Metal that is even stranger and more forlorn than this geese record, but felt like a real breakthrough for him as a songwriter, finding his own very distinct songwriting voice.

Speaker 2 Getting killed from Geese married that Cameron Winter record, which I really like, with rock and roll, which I also really like. But

Speaker 2 I feel

Speaker 2 like I'm being

Speaker 2 tortured

Speaker 3 now, actually tortured. But, Gilbert, I really want to know what you think.

Speaker 2 So, this weekend, because it's the holiday season, my family and I watched a movie we'd seen many times before. It's called Emmett Otter's Jugpan Christmas.
Oh, yeah. And

Speaker 2 Cameron Winter

Speaker 2 to me sounds like a Jim Henson creation. I just don't understand his voice at all.

Speaker 2 I think he'd be in like the River Bottom Rock Band. I don't know.
There's something about his voice.

Speaker 2 It's a little yowling. You know, there's a yowl.
There's a lot of yowl. Yeah.
It's yowl forward. I would say.

Speaker 2 The thing is,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 hated this album the first time, the first couple of times I listened to it. And I put it on five times this weekend.
And it might actually be like,

Speaker 2 I just need to dunk my head into the bucket because the more I listened to it, the more I was okay with it. And then maybe the more even I started to like it.

Speaker 2 I don't know that I will ever appreciate his voice, which is his God-given voice.

Speaker 2 All respect to his voice. But

Speaker 2 there's a hurdle. There is a hurdle to this.
Sure. It is slightly, it's like Kermit Cilantro is what it is.

Speaker 2 I would like to see that Muppet, actually.

Speaker 2 The Cameron Winter Muppet? Yeah, yeah. He's

Speaker 2 definitely going to be on Sesame Street at some point, right? I don't know. I think that would disturb the children.

Speaker 2 I don't know much.

Speaker 2 So I feel like I'm in the middle,

Speaker 2 moving slightly Lindsay's direction. Welcome.
Karen is out, out, out.

Speaker 3 I'm so out.

Speaker 3 I don't know what this album, I mean, I think I know what this album is trying to do, and it is trying to conjure the spirit of 70s, 60s, 70s 70s New York bands.

Speaker 3 And it just doesn't do it for me at all. And I did try repeated listenings this weekend in an attempt to say, am I just not giving it enough time? I think I hated it.

Speaker 2 more every time.

Speaker 3 There's just shadows of the music that I like in it.

Speaker 3 And I don't want to discount the fact that for a lot of people, Gen Z and younger, this is their first interfacing with these sounds and they're finding them thrilling. And I think that is awesome.

Speaker 3 So I don't want to be like a crazy old ageist, you know, fuddy duddy here and be like, ah, it was all better in the old days.

Speaker 3 The music that these people are drawing on is very valuable. You know, we're talking about Lou Reed, Suicide, television.
I mean, these are wonderful sources. To me, they're not doing it successfully.

Speaker 3 It just feels like a mishmash to me.

Speaker 2 But I think it's interesting just how divisive it is. And that's part of, I don't want to say that's part of what I like about it, because I do just love this record.

Speaker 2 But I think it's refreshing that an indie rock band from New York is getting this much of a rise out of people and a reaction, you know, whether you love it or hate it.

Speaker 2 And I think another trend we want to discuss is

Speaker 2 it was actually a good year for rock. Yeah.
Question mark.

Speaker 3 I mean, for me, it's always kind of a good year for rock.

Speaker 2 But I think something that

Speaker 2 I really embrace about Geese 2 is, you know, every year, every few years that you get the think pieces. Is rock music dead?

Speaker 2 But I think this was a year when a lot of younger bands were

Speaker 2 finding ways to make rock rock music that resonated with their cohort and that felt somehow new and novel and like a distinct approach to it.

Speaker 2 Something about Geese, when I saw them live last month,

Speaker 2 people were crowdsurfing to the ballads. I've never seen that before.
You know, there was such an energy there.

Speaker 3 Can you hear my eye roll?

Speaker 2 Karen, how could it

Speaker 2 not appreciate this enthusiasm?

Speaker 3 Listen, I love excitement for indie rock. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 Before we move on, let's talk about one other New York rock band that I think maybe that you can come in agreement on this one. We both like this.
Yes, we do. Tell us about it.

Speaker 3 The band is Water from Your Eyes.

Speaker 2 Or as my boyfriend calls them, tears.

Speaker 2 I get the joke.

Speaker 2 Water from Your Eyes is essentially a duo of Nate Amos and Rachel Brown.

Speaker 2 Nate Amos wailing away on the guitar on this record, lots of layered distortion, just big, crunchy guitar sounds, which I know is something Karen and I both enjoy.

Speaker 2 And Rachel Brown sings in quotes with this deadpan.

Speaker 2 Just really interesting

Speaker 2 lyrics, almost kind of spoken word poetry. They're funny.
They're dark. They're about these apocalyptic times that we live in.

Speaker 2 And something about those two energies coming together makes for really compelling music. I think this is, in some ways, an alternative rock 90s record made by people that did not live through

Speaker 2 the 90s. And there's something really satisfying about that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. To me, this is the exciting Brooklyn band at the moment.

Speaker 2 Lindsay, I'd love for you to talk about one more trend that appeared on your list this year. Sure.

Speaker 2 I noticed when putting my list together only afterwards that there were a lot of British women making interesting pop music this year and

Speaker 2 pop music under a very large umbrella. I'll start by talking about, I think, my 10th favorite album of the year, Fancy That by Pink Panthras.

Speaker 2 My name's Pink,

Speaker 2 This is a

Speaker 2 quick, I think 20-minute album. So if you couldn't get through swag on the Morgan Wallen record, if you don't have the attention span, do I have a recommendation for you?

Speaker 2 Pink Panthras is someone who came on the scene a few years ago, had a very distinct sound as both a producer and and a vocalist, but seemed like she kind of had one lane and one sound that she was doing really well.

Speaker 2 And this album feels really refreshing to me.

Speaker 2 This is her doing something a lot lighter, more effervescent, kind of flirty.

Speaker 2 A lot of her songs previously were about heartbreak, but this is almost a concept album that tells the story of this burgeoning romance.

Speaker 2 It's really good. And it shows a side of her that I think was maybe I was not sure was there.

Speaker 2 It's an artist who going back to this idea of how do you follow breakthroughs and how do you continue to develop

Speaker 2 your artistry in an industry that is moving so fast. I think this just finds her shifting into another gear that I was not aware she had.
And I think it's a delightful record.

Speaker 3 I think a lot of people have been trying to sound like her over the past few years.

Speaker 3 She's got like, you know, sort of a high-pitched, breathy vocal, and her, you know, tracks are generally pretty upbeat dance music.

Speaker 3 Like, you know, Lily Allen bit her on one of the songs on the new album. There's a bunch of stuff.
So I thought I love this record too. Also, 20 minutes, incredible length.

Speaker 3 And yeah, these songs definitely have more of an effervescence to them.

Speaker 3 I also wanted to point out that Lindsay profiled Pink Panthers on the previous record and almost threw up on her on a roller coaster.

Speaker 2 I was wondering if this was going to come up. Really? Yeah.
What happened? So Pink Panthrus loves roller coasters.

Speaker 2 We should have had her on our roller coaster episode. I have no idea.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Got to do part two. Shout out Pink Prime Minister.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I don't love roller coasters, especially as I get older.
I'm prone to motion sickness.

Speaker 2 So this was a great pairing of subject and writer.

Speaker 3 They went to the American Dream Mall.

Speaker 2 We did.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And the first roller coaster we rode together was a spinny one.
Uh-huh. And I really came close to vomiting on Pink Panthers.
Did you let her know? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 she said something, she was very sweet about it. And she's like, I think it's good to know your limits or something.
And then she rode like five more roller coasters while I stood and watched her.

Speaker 2 It's an amazing use of your time. Yeah.
Yeah, it was. It was.

Speaker 2 Karen, you mentioned Lily Allen.

Speaker 2 I feel like this was quite a tabloid moment when she released this album late this fall.

Speaker 3 I can't believe that the zeitgeist has swung back to Lily Allen.

Speaker 3 But yes, Lily Allen basically put out like a narrative, intricately detailed recounting of a salacious story.

Speaker 3 And that's her album in a nutshell, except it's ostensibly autobiographical about the dissolution of her marriage and her cheating husband. You won't play with me.

Speaker 3 And who's Madeline? It's really long and you kind of have to stick with it, you know, to get through the entire narrative, but there are some actually really great songs on there.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Who's Madeline?

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Who's Madeline? Who the bleep?

Speaker 2 One of the reasons I love reading End of Your List is that I get to discover things that I missed, you know, in the previous 11 months.

Speaker 2 Can I ask you about one song that made your song list that I listened to it this weekend and I just fell fell in love with it. It was the um, it was the Ella Langley song.

Speaker 2 Oh, I wanted to talk about that. I'm glad you asked.
Choose in Texas, in Texas.

Speaker 2 It's this beautiful sad girl, heartbreak country song co-written with Miranda Lambert. So, you know, already speaking my language there, love Miranda.
It's great.

Speaker 2 Just when I thought I got in the fall in love with Tennessee.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's just a great country song that you can imagine being a hit in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s today.

Speaker 2 This is this great country heartbreak song. Yeah, classic.
Yeah. Every year needs one of those.

Speaker 2 Drinking Jack all by myself.

Speaker 2 He's choosing Texas, I can tell.

Speaker 2 Karen, I'd love two or three real rapid-fire recommendations of songs or albums that you were into this year. I'm going to albums.
Okay.

Speaker 3 Do you remember Sleigh Bells?

Speaker 2 I sure do.

Speaker 3 They've been gone for a very long time. They came back this year with an album called Bunky Becky Birthday Boy.

Speaker 3 It's an alliterative amalgam. You did that very well.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 3 Absolutely amazing record. It's all over the place.
And it was an amazing reminder of how they were predecessors to all the things that we love in the sort of experimental hyper pop realm.

Speaker 3 I will also say, Haley Williams put out another wonderful album. It's called Ego Death at a Bachelorette Party, which is a really fun title.

Speaker 2 What a great title. It is.
I'll be the biggest star at this Bachelorette Party Bar.

Speaker 3 It's different. A couple of years ago, she had her first solo record, which was like a little bit more electronic and experimental.

Speaker 3 This one's more of like a classic singer-songwriter punky at moments record, but extremely heartfelt, really interesting lyrics. Great stuff there.

Speaker 3 And then there's Turnstile.

Speaker 3 They're a hardcore band that's like exceptionally poppy and gauzy and shoegazy and everything else right now, which would make you say, are they still a hardcore band? People ask that question.

Speaker 3 People in punk, you know, they like to keep their boundaries tight. They're drawing their hoodie strings in and trying to keep the world away.

Speaker 3 It's very, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with Ganscor, which is my particular brand of music, but this is as Gansy as it possibly gets.

Speaker 2 I feel like I've known you for a bit.

Speaker 2 All right. Thank you both for all those amazing recommendations.
We are going to take a break, and when we come back, we are going to play, as we do every week, a little game.

Speaker 2 We're going to listen to Sleigh Bells. Bunky, Becky, birthday, baby.
Boy. Boy? So close.
close.

Speaker 2 I was feeling dark and crazy about you.

Speaker 2 And I was cool and lost and gravy and soy.

Speaker 1 We all have moments when we could have done better. Like cutting your own hair.

Speaker 2 Yikes.

Speaker 5 Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato.

Speaker 1 Ouch. Could have done better.
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Speaker 2 Okay, Lindsay and Karen, we are going to finish this episode the way we finish up. Every week, we are going to play a game.
We have three rounds for you, ostensibly about the music of the year.

Speaker 2 You should buzz in to answer, and correct answer gets a point. Okay.

Speaker 2 Are you ready? We are ready. All right, here we go.

Speaker 2 Round one, which we call viral of the fittest. It has been a big year for viral moments featuring pop artists.

Speaker 2 I'm going to give you a quote from a viral video from this year, and you tell me who said that quote. Okay.

Speaker 2 Either they're having an affair or they're just really shy.

Speaker 2 Karen.

Speaker 3 Chris Martin.

Speaker 2 Chris Martin, that is correct. That was from Cold Playgate back in July.

Speaker 2 Either they're having an affair or they're just very shy.

Speaker 2 Next question.

Speaker 2 So you are going to jail, unfortunately, for being too beautiful.

Speaker 2 Lindsay. Sabrina Carpenter.
Sabrina Carpenter, that is correct. So you are going to jail, unfortunately, for being too beautiful, but I'm going to serenade you with this song.

Speaker 2 Sabrina arrested an audience member, often somebody famous at each of the shows on her short and sweet tour. Next.

Speaker 2 One,

Speaker 2 two,

Speaker 2 three,

Speaker 2 take up space.

Speaker 2 One, two, three,

Speaker 2 take up space.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's Katy Perry in space.

Speaker 2 One, two, three, take up space.

Speaker 2 Do you remember this was the year that came in here and went to space?

Speaker 3 It's been a really long year, Gilbert.

Speaker 2 Sure is. Okay.

Speaker 2 It's a loaf story. Baby, just say yeast.

Speaker 2 Lindsay.

Speaker 3 Taylor Swift.

Speaker 2 This was indeed Taylor Swift on the New Heights podcast.

Speaker 3 It's a loaf story, baby, just say yeast.

Speaker 2 Just say yeast. All right, time for a multiple choice.
A big song of the year, even though it technically came out last year, is Role Model's Sally When the Wine Runs Runs Out.

Speaker 2 When Role Model performs Sally Live, he often brings out a celebrity to dance during the song's breakdown.

Speaker 2 Which one of the following celebrities has not been one of Role Model Sally's? Olivia Rodrigo, Gracie Abrams, Al Roker, or Natalie Portman?

Speaker 3 Karen. I'm going to say Natalie Portman.

Speaker 2 Incorrect! Gracie Abrams.

Speaker 2 Oh, I don't get to steal.

Speaker 3 Were you going to guess, Broker?

Speaker 2 No, I knew Natalie Portman was one. All right.
You do not get to steal.

Speaker 3 I knew Olivia was one.

Speaker 2 Sorry.

Speaker 2 That is the end of round one. Oh, no.
I'm losing. I don't know because I'm not keeping score in real time who is winning and who is losing.
We're all going to find out together at the end.

Speaker 2 Round two, Kids Bop or Kids Flop. You're both familiar with Kids Bop? Of course.
Oh, yeah. Series of albums for kids where young singers cover popular songs.

Speaker 2 I'm going to name a recent pop song, song, and you are going to tell me if Kids Bop has covered that song. Oh, I like this.
Okay. And then I hate it.
It's going to be hard, but.

Speaker 2 First, APT or Apata by Bruno Mars and Rose.

Speaker 2 Karen. Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes. Kids Bop has covered this.
Don't you like me like I like you, baby? Dude. We all remember that.
Okay, next song, Daisies by Justin Bieber. Lindsay.

Speaker 2 No. No, that is correct.
Kids Bop has not yet covered Daisies by Justin Bieber. All right.
BMF by Sizza.

Speaker 2 Karen.

Speaker 3 I'm going to say no.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately, Kids Bop has covered BMF by Sizza.

Speaker 2 Very sweet. Very child-appropriate.
All All right, next song, Anxiety by Dochi.

Speaker 2 Lindsay, no.

Speaker 2 The answer is yes. KidSpop has covered Anxiety by Dochi.

Speaker 2 Kids are anxious.

Speaker 2 All right. Next song, Wildflower by Billie Eilish.

Speaker 2 Karen.

Speaker 3 I'm going to say yes.

Speaker 2 Yes, KidSpop has covered Wildflower by Billie Eilish. Like a fever.

Speaker 2 Like I'm hurting itself.

Speaker 2 And then finally, End of the World by Miley Cyrus.

Speaker 2 Lindsay. Yes.
No.

Speaker 3 That's a little dark for kids. I'm going to spice that up.

Speaker 2 That's going off the beaten path. I mean, they did Sizza.
True, true.

Speaker 2 Okay, that is the end of round two. We have one final round, and that is Cursed Come, Cursed Served.

Speaker 2 Our crack team of amateur DJs have put together some very special, very cursed mashups of recent popular songs.

Speaker 2 I'm going to play the mashup, and you get one point for every song in the mashup that you can name. Okay.
And they get harder as they go. All right.
Are you both ready? I am.

Speaker 2 First mashup.

Speaker 2 babies.

Speaker 2 You're going to get it with Lord.

Speaker 2 Got me, got me, going.

Speaker 2 You got to get it with Lord.

Speaker 2 Lindsay.

Speaker 2 Well, Golden

Speaker 2 is one. Great.
Good job.

Speaker 2 By Huntrix. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's all I got. Karen? Yeah.
Do you want to guess the other one?

Speaker 3 I don't.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 All right. That is Golden Correct Hunt Tricks from K-pop Demon Hunters and Sue Me by Audrey Hobart.
Ah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Next song.

Speaker 2 He loves me.

Speaker 3 I'm forcing you to buzz. Oh, God.

Speaker 2 I know one of them in there. The.

Speaker 2 No, I don't.

Speaker 2 There are actually three songs in here. Men I Need by Olivia Dean.
Okay. Mystical, Magical by Benson Boone.

Speaker 2 He of the Crumble Cookie. And Love Me Not by Raven Linnae.
Yes.

Speaker 3 I feel bad I did not buzz the Olivia Libya Dean song, which I do enjoy.

Speaker 2 I love that song. I can't believe I didn't recognize it.
I just want to tell you that these get harder

Speaker 2 as we go. I believe in us, Karen.
I think we can. I'm frightened.

Speaker 2 Next mashup.

Speaker 2 I think you know what this is.

Speaker 2 I think you want.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, that we beat.

Speaker 2 God, is this real?

Speaker 2 Oh, we're a special play.

Speaker 2 Oh my god, this song's so late.

Speaker 2 Gang, gang, gang, gang, gang. Hardy, hardy.
Like a bag of talkies. I'm the shoe.

Speaker 2 I'm the shoes.

Speaker 2 Lindsay Zoled. Okay.
We got Sports Car by Tate McRae. Correct.

Speaker 2 We got Gnarly by Cat's Eye. Correct.

Speaker 2 And then I'll allow Karen.

Speaker 3 I was going for gnarly.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 okay, you got two of three. That was really good.
What was the third? Folded by Kalani. Ah, yeah.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, we all knew that one.
Okay, we have one more. The hardest one, apparently.

Speaker 2 Well, well, welcome to the Gilbert Cruz. I'm with

Speaker 2 special.

Speaker 2 Tell me who I am. Tell your mama to be a little bit more.

Speaker 2 Tongue, tongue. Ordinary famous.

Speaker 2 Tongue, tongue.

Speaker 2 Ordinary pointed buns. Tongue's all I want to be.

Speaker 2 I won't punch you.

Speaker 3 Can I ask a question?

Speaker 3 No, but

Speaker 3 was there a kids bop version of a song in there?

Speaker 2 I do not believe so. Okay.
Lindsay.

Speaker 2 Yes, I did ring in.

Speaker 2 I heard Fame is a Gun by Addison Ray. That is correct.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 Automatic by Dijon.

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 but Ordinary. That's what I was going to say.
Ordinary by Alex Warren.

Speaker 3 I thought it was Kids Bop Ordinary.

Speaker 2 This is like watching a wine critic swirl

Speaker 2 a nice, you know, full and then say, I detect notes of Ordinary by Elliott. But I also hear

Speaker 2 Sunday Special by Gilbert Cruz.

Speaker 2 Correct. That counts for a point.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Well, now you destroyed me.

Speaker 2 And the last song was Sugar on My Tongue by Tyler the Creator. All right.
That was the end of the round and the end of the game.

Speaker 2 Our producers are telling me that Lindsay won. Wow.
Lindsay Zolance, you have won. Again.
Again. I'm undefeated.
And you know what?

Speaker 2 You win something. I think you already know what you're going to get.
Oh, boy.

Speaker 2 Karen has not seen one.

Speaker 3 Now I'm just disappointed in myself.

Speaker 2 So as you can see, this is a cardboard box that I think we got out of the recycling.

Speaker 2 And in that box is a cheap plastic trophy with my wrinkled face on it. We call it the Gilby.
Yay. Congratulations.
Thank you. I'm going to put it next to my other Gilby, which is on my desk.

Speaker 2 Karen, come see.

Speaker 3 I will visit my Gilby right after.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. Visit my Gilby.

Speaker 2 You know, I actually do not have a Gilby. Oh, well, you are a Gilby.
Can I borrow yours? Yeah, you can. I have one to spare.

Speaker 3 Oh, you're really rubbing it in now.

Speaker 2 Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on the Sunday special to talk about the year in music. Thanks for having me.
Karen, thank you so much for coming on.

Speaker 3 Thank you, Gilbert.

Speaker 2 This episode was produced by Kate Lopresti with help from Alex Barron, who's also our quiz master, and Tina Antellini. Our show was edited by Wendy Dorr and engineered by Rowan Nemisto.

Speaker 2 Original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. Special thanks to Paula Schuman.
Next week, we'll be talking about the year in television. See you then.

Speaker 1 We all have moments when we could have done better. Like cutting your own hair.

Speaker 2 Yikes.

Speaker 5 Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato.

Speaker 1 Ouch. Could have done better.
Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab.
Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn more at schwab dot com.