Death Of Gawker, And An Ego

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i'm jane marie and this is the dream I've been dying to talk to today's guest for years.

You see, about 10 years ago, a thing happened that for a time kind of crushed my American dream.

I was working at Gawker, which was a popular media outlet writing about makeup and feminism and terrible fashion.

Life was great.

When a scandal erupted involving Hulk Hogan, who was backed by right-wing bajillionaire Peter Thiel,

who were suing Gawker.

And it led to a really expensive trial, and I lost my job in the fallout.

I was a new mom.

I was fairly broke.

I was separated from my husband, and I was pissed.

The guy we're going to hear from today was one of the people I was most pissed at.

But over time, he's become, well, almost a completely different person.

My name's AJ Delario,

born Bucks County, Pennsylvania.

You know what's in Bucks County right now?

New Hope.

And New Hope, I don't know if you've noticed that New Hope is like the new hotspot where like celebrities are posting up.

It's supposed to be like the kind of like the mini Hamptons right now.

In Pennsylvania?

In Pennsylvania, because it's like Bradley Cooper's got a place there.

Is that Model Ladies Dating?

Or used to date?

Irena.

Right, right.

Her family has like some property there.

So it's like I grew up near there, but I wasn't in the Ritzy part.

I was in this place called Churchville, Pennsylvania, which is kind of like the more middle-class-ish section of that.

Can you just sum up in two sentences what that trial was?

Like what happened just quickly?

We don't need to linger on it.

In October of 2012, when I was editor of Gawker, I published a story about Hulk Hogan's sex tape and then posted about a minute of it on the site and illegally.

I have to add that all the time.

And yeah, we were sued for invasion of privacy and emotional distress several times for that.

It was thrown out of federal court a lot, and then it landed in Florida and we lost $115 million.

And I think it settled for $31 million,

bankrupted the company.

Cost me my job.

Did it?

Yeah.

Sorry.

It's okay.

All right.

So you're here to talk to me about, and

I've been talking about work a bunch on the show.

And just, I know that you had quite a dramatic transition in your career.

You

famously were kind of at dissolution of the version of Gawker that was

as it had been because Peter Thiel decided that he had it out for everyone.

You really have to talk about that.

No,

I always had to talk about that.

And I enjoy talking about it because it's my

it's been nine years

and

every year that I talk about it, there's a different version of it.

So what's the version right now?

Here's an interesting change.

A

reporter

friend of mine who was not,

we were talking about kind of mental health and she asked me like what I had learned from that.

And she wasn't doing it for a quote or anything like that.

And I gave her an answer that was a total lie.

Oh.

And I didn't realize that because I felt like I needed an answer.

I felt like I needed to give her an answer.

And I forget exactly what I said, but it wasn't true.

The true answer is I don't know.

Right.

Yeah.

And I think that's as honest as I can be about that.

Yeah.

Like the other thing that I found that was notable was anytime Hulk Hogan is in the news, I'll get like a text message from people.

Are you okay?

Like in the Republican National Convention, he's ripping his shirt off like that.

I get the text messages like, are you watching this?

And I'm like, no, what's happening?

It's just like, oh, never mind.

It's your boy on TV again.

Which are just like the worst text in the world.

It's like people are saying bad things about you right now,

but I just want to let you know, but also not talk about it with you.

So, and I would get those sort of texts.

Peter Thiel's in the news, I'll get those texts.

Or like, you know, there is the Matt Damon Ben Affleck movie that's supposedly happening like that.

And it would be like, you know, are you okay?

And I am because I have no real emotional sort of response to either one of those guys, like the two, you know,

main villains, I think, of this story.

Most people would consider.

The dude that triggers me is

an NPR media reporter who was very,

I would say, kind of ungenerous with me in terms of his coverage about it.

And I had one conversation with him

long after the trial had ended, maybe just like in 2017.

And we had just, Julianne and I had just had our first son.

And he called me, he was calling me to fact check something.

And

he was kind of pushy, a little condescending, because he had covered the trial pretty extensively, and I didn't know who he was.

He acted like I should know who he was.

And

so he, at the end of it, he was just like, so what are you up to now?

Like that.

And I, and I said, you know, oh, I'm doing a book and I,

and we just had a baby.

And he went, huh?

Like, he sounded dismayed, right?

And like you're not supposed to have children?

Yes.

Like it, I mean, that was, that was the tone that I was picking up, right?

Was that he,

whatever version of me that he felt was fit the narrative that he wanted to put out there, I was breaking it.

But he was also like, so this is what he says on after the end of the call.

Take care of that baby.

Fuck you.

I'll delete this, but who is it?

Oh,

wow.

But that's the voice I hear in my head, right?

Whenever like there's a negative voice, I hear his voice.

Oh my, I'm so sorry.

We need to deprogram you.

But because it's always fun.

I tell this story and it's like, you know, everybody's just like, you know, I'm sorry, Peter Thial did.

Like, okay.

I'm like, I don't care about those guys at all.

Other guy.

This guy.

But I mean, and then and then anybody who knows who he is is basically like, that guy?

That's the guy that's keeping you up at night.

I get it.

That's the negative voice in your head.

I fully get it, though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Take care of that baby.

But that's the interesting part.

It's just like the people that I have like resentments against from that ordeal are mostly reporters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is a bad thing because obviously, I mean, I think journalism is very important, especially at this time.

Yeah.

But man, it's just like if I had a list, and sometimes I do have a list, right?

And I have to go every year, I try to make them

less important in my life.

But I think that going,

getting the amount of coverage that I was getting, and this was partially my fault, too.

I mean, well, all of my fault.

Those are your words.

Yes.

Are you laughing there?

Yep.

Boyers for the Hulk referring to Delario's taped deposition, in which she sarcastically answers, the only celebrity sex tape he wouldn't consider newsworthy would be that involving a child.

The fact that Mr.

Boleo was taped having sex with his best friend's wife wasn't the news hook for your piece, was it?

Uh, no, not necessarily.

And you put that out in the public because you believed it was true and it it was interesting, right?

Yes.

And it didn't really matter whether or not it was a morbid and sensational prying into people's lives for its own sake.

That didn't matter.

You did it.

No.

I was seeking,

I was really putting the hopes of saving my career in the hands of other people.

So I would sit down with interviews very prematurely.

The thing that was so...

heartbreaking, I did this, this Esquire story, and

there was a full year after the trial, and I was in that situation where they put a lien on my backing banking account for like $200 million.

I had just started dating Julianne, kind of like officially, officially at that point,

because my life is a bit chaotic and

not a great catch at that time.

But

like they approached me and I knew the reporter a little bit because he was kind of a Philly guy.

And they were going to like kind of do something about what it's like to have, you know, a $200 million lien and these awful people coming after you.

And I agreed to it.

And I agreed to it initially where I was just, I didn't want to talk about

my recovery, my sobriety, every sort of childhood trauma that I was working through, like, you know, all the, all the hits, right?

And

he called me back and he said, you know, they'll.

they'll do this, but I think we should talk about like your personal life and what you're going through there.

And I'm like, okay,

that sounds good, right?

even though you already had decided you weren't going to yeah because i was so desperate to basically get the the coverage that i was like oh well i'll sell that yeah and one time and one of these

and one of these is going to come out posit like in a positive light so and the thing that i was rehabilitate my image

and i was really determined about was because there were good things happening in my life you know as much as like you know there were there were bad things i mean i was moving to la i mean you know i did fall in love i fell in love i mean we were having a baby.

I was like, you know, working part-time at another publication.

Like, I was trying to kind of make the best out of the situation.

And

the story came out, and none of that was in there.

My life was ruined, as they said.

Like,

and it was just, you know, none of the stuff that was good was in there.

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As a kid,

teenager, I was very

lost, I would say.

Like, I went to when I in high school, I had a really good high school experience in terms of just you know, popularity-wise, and you know, I had a very good close group of friends, but I was kind of on the outskirts of it.

Like,

you know, I was basically the turtle of my friend group, basically, right?

Using an entourage reference here for everyone.

Go check it out on HBO Max.

20th anniversary, I believe.

But

meaning like my friends were just like, you know, the

high school president, the captain, the basketball team, the football quarterback.

And your sugar.

Sort of.

I was just not those guys, right?

But I felt

like I got, I got the, you know, I got the vapors of basically being around those people.

So I kind of felt like I was popular, maybe more so than I actually was.

It was on prom court and shit like that.

But everybody

went on to do their own thing, either, you know, in college and played sports in college and things like that.

And I ended up going to La Salle University in Philadelphia.

And my parents thought that, you know, I was, I didn't want to go to that school.

I wanted to go away.

I really wanted to go away.

And I got into University of Tampa.

Not a great student, obviously.

But

I wanted to go there so badly.

And my father took me for a tour and just kind of laughed throughout the whole entire process because it was just, you know, they had their dorms were down, so they had to stay in a mobile home for like,

I mean, it was a little great impression.

Yeah, but it was also very expensive for out-of-state people, too, right?

So I didn't have a lot of options, but well, I just wanted to go away.

And then I ended up commuting to the school I didn't want to go to.

From home?

From home.

Okay, so you stayed at home?

Stayed at home.

Yeah, I had the same experience.

And I was so depressed about that.

Like during that period of time when everyone, it's like October and people come home from college, right?

To visit their parents for the first time.

And I remember seeing all my friends come back from college and they're wearing like their big sweatshirts and everybody's got like the freshman 15, but it just seems like, I mean, it was like

Navy pilots coming home from the war just in terms of the way that they were themselves coming into their own as adults.

And I was essentially having that sense of just like no identity, like purposelessness kind of put me in this really awful depression.

But I didn't know how to express that in any sort of way that would result in anything.

So instead, I faked alcoholism and spent my seconds.

Fake until you make it.

I just took, I just went to my parents' liquor cabinet, drank a lot,

didn't go to class.

My dad called me from work and I was just like, dad, I'm drunk.

And then, you know, I stopped going to school and I went to a therapist, like basically took a,

and he said you should go to rehab.

And I was like, yes.

Great.

Great.

Clearly, I wasn't an alcoholic yet, but I was trying to, so you know how dumb it is to basically be some, like every time I would go and they would put you in groups and they would be like some, some grizzled guys with like real, super bad problems.

And I'm like, what's your show today?

And I would have to make it up.

I would have to make it up.

I would have to like

concoct a story based off of everyone else's rough stuff.

And like every single time the counselor would be like, you know, where would you get your beer from?

Because I looked like 12, too.

And I was like, oh man, I got fake ID and like parents, brothers.

And it's like, so how much were you drinking?

And, you know, it'd be like, 600, 60 cases of whatever.

Lots of, yeah, just making stuff up.

But did you have any idea outside of being pretending to be an alcoholic what you wanted to do?

I entirely.

I knew.

This is the thing.

When I went to, when I was, they did take you to meetings and I had a sponsor, and I was like, you know, I'm not, this isn't for me right now, but someday I can tell.

Real alcoholic.

I can tell.

This is in the cards.

Yeah.

I need a little more practice.

Yeah, right.

No, but I wanted to be,

I wanted to work in the music industry.

I wanted to be, so I started like interning at recording studios.

I mean, like, I was doing, I was running errands for like dishwalla, like, and, you know, and,

um,

but it was just, I felt like I was part of something.

And

it was just so invigorating to me.

And I just, I wanted something to feel that way.

Right.

So also at the same time, I was kind of stringing for like local newspapers too.

And audience stringing is like you get sent out to do some reporting.

Cover like local pie eating contests and city council meetings and things like that.

And I was doing record reviews too.

But

I, at that time,

I got into chicken soup for the golfer's soul.

No.

It was a big deal when I was like 22, 23.

And

were you a golfer?

No, my dad was.

So I kind of wrote it from the perspective of him and his dad.

So I guess it was kind of like I was

like a ghostwriter for this book?

No, I just, it was basically, I was like a fabulous.

I was like the Stephen Glass.

I was like chicken soup with a soul, basically.

But my dad was very touched, you know, and he was excited.

And they had a nice little book party when it came out.

How did you get this gig?

I didn't get the gig.

I submitted this story, and they pick

a handful of stories, and you get $250 and three copies of Chicken Soup for the Gopher's Soul.

It's like your reward.

And this is how sad ass it was because

I went to like the Barnes and Noble, like nearby my parents'

place in Horsham, Pennsylvania.

It's like the Willowgrove Mall.

And I went there and it was like Father's Day and Chicken Soup for the Soul, like big deal.

It's a giant kiosk, Chicken Soup for the Gopher's soul.

And I wanted to buy it, right?

And I wanted to buy it.

And I go to buy it.

And in my head, I'm playing out the scenario where the

19-year-old kid behind the calendar is just like, oh, I love this book.

And then I would say, well, I'm in this book.

And he would say, oh my God, come and sign these and do a reading here.

And instead,

this is what happened.

My credit card was declined.

I was just going to guess, dude, I was just going to interrupt you.

And then

I was like, should I tell him I'm in the book and maybe he'll give it to me for free?

Eventually, AJ moved to New York and started writing, not for huge outlets, but not small ones like he'd been doing back home.

And he was happy.

I knew that I was just like, oh, this is where I want to be, right?

Like, I never had that amount of certainty about anything in my life.

Like, I remember

all the buildup of kind of like being lost and purposeless, you know?

Like, the pivotal moments in terms of just like, you know, where I

became kind of just like the editor that I would be at like Deadspin and Gawker was when I, like I said, you know, there was.

New York Press was Jeff Coyne, Taibbi was there.

It was like that sort of stuff, right?

And I went to Lit.

Remember that bar at Lit?

So I went there with Jeff Coyen, and he introduced me to Moonrock's Molly, something like that.

And Lit was a bar where you could do cocaine at the bar.

Yeah, that was one of them.

Just the greatest, awfulest bathroom that you could do.

So gross.

Bathroom out of Central Casting, basically.

So gross.

I never did any of that at Lit, just for the record.

I mean, I used to hang out there.

I never did like the fun stuff, except we took Molly at the bar and he had like this, he had like, he was editor-in-chief of the New York Press.

And, you know, at the time, this was like, you know,

second G.W.

Bush post, like, you know, 9-11 Iraq war.

Like, things are really just not like this right now, but we're amped, right?

And

he comes to me with like this, this leather sort of briefcase that I think like architects used to have, right?

And he was going to show me their next issue.

And he's just like, you know, you can't tell anybody about this, but this is what we're going to do.

And he shows me it.

And it's basically a mock-up.

It's called the assassination of George W.

Bush.

And they're covering it like it's a real event, right?

And like every single story.

And like, you know, and then fake Taibbi, op-ed, basically calling, saying that this is a good thing and all this stuff like that.

And I'm like, wow, you can do this.

And he's like, I don't know.

And I'm like, like, oh my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life.

And, you know, the mollies hitting and weird DJ music happening a little bit.

And just like, and I'm like, oh, man, I've just entered this room that I really,

because this is going to get people in trouble.

And boy, did it ever.

And

so.

The publisher of the New York Press refused to put that newspaper out, gave Baisley

the option to, like, you know, do another version of it or lose his job.

And this is just like one of the coolest things that I think I've ever experienced.

Like, put out a newspaper.

The paper that he did put out was 50 Reasons Why the Pope Should Die.

No, I lost that.

And that was okay.

Nope.

Nope.

Fired right away.

Took like $10,000,

went, you know, to like overseas for a bit and just like kind of

just dusted everybody right and i was just like oh my god like i didn't know people like this actually existed right yeah but i was just like well i want to be that guy i want to be a version of that guy right so

big editorial influence um

another guy who was running Maxim UK at the time was a gentleman named Greg Gutfeld.

Okay.

And who many may know as like a Fox News talking head right now.

But Greg Gutfeld like read Maxim UK and it was like the greatest magazine I'd ever seen in my entire life because

you're supposed to put ladies in productive clothing.

This is for men's and stuff like that.

And he would do disobey everybody, right?

And would run the magazine he wanted to do.

I liked people that were getting called to the principal's office, basically.

Sure, sure.

Constantly.

Yeah.

I wanted that energy.

And I was just like, if I'm ever in charge of a publication, I'm going to run it like these guys.

So I got like the Gawker job.

And that was kind of just, you know, full-on,

I'm probably going to work at Gawker a year, right?

But I was just like, I want to do it exactly like Jeff Collian did it.

I want to do it exactly like Greg.

I'm going to do gonzo journalism.

I'm going to be

like,

I'm going to cause spectacles all the time.

And I'm going to do a lot of drugs.

And I'm going to just like be a slob and a mess.

And I'm going to start wearing visors.

That was my visor era.

Like the poker kind.

Yep.

I mean, golf visors and stuff like that.

But I mean, also at the same time, you know, all of the success I was having, my credit rating was really bad and I still had like no money.

And, you know, I was

really invested in the persona that I had created.

But I mean, also, just like, you know, I was still a manic depressive, too.

So, I mean, constantly broke, not showering a lot, drunk a lot.

You know, I'm medicated now, so it's a lot better.

But, you know, I would just be one of those people, you know, who'd, I got a great idea.

This is what we're going to do.

Like, gonna blow this out and blah, blah, blah.

And just like that.

And then we're going to install a roller rink inside our fucking apartment.

It's going to be cool.

Shit.

And like, I think I can get a pet octopus.

I think we're going to get a pet.

I think that's what I'm going to do.

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This is the thing that I did at Gawker: that like it was Thanksgiving and I was kind of bored and I went to Cairo to go cover the Arab Spring and I didn't tell my boss or my employees or my parents.

You just got on a plane and met my friend out there.

I mean,

I would do that.

That's something I'd do.

Well, but I was like, you know, I wasn't really prepared to cover it.

It was pretty intense.

Some shit was popping off at that time.

Did anyone care?

Yeah.

You get in trouble?

No.

Okay.

No, no, no.

No.

Like, that's the thing that was great working for Nick Denton, that as much as just like, you know, I was doing that stuff, he was kind of amused by it, right?

In some ways.

So, okay, so you are in that environment for a while.

You, you,

there's,

you leave eventually, and then there's this whole meltdown with the lost suit.

Yeah.

And

are you ever worried that the excitement

drive drive for excitement or drive for creating chaos and spectacle is going to come back in some way?

I was really

a definition of failing upward at that point.

So I kind of left, I quit Gawker almost like in the middle of the night too, basically.

Like I went and had my annual review of Nick with Nick.

And we have that and he's like, you know,

I know we've had kind of our differences like that, but I'm going to give you this much of a raise and a higher editorial budget.

And I really look forward to working together for like, you know, 2013.

And I'm like, I quit.

Oh, my God.

Is it pressure or something?

No, I just thought it would be cooler that way.

I didn't have a job lined up or anything.

I was just like,

let's make this fun.

The fun didn't last too long because that trial came about a couple of years later and consumed AJ.

And then I was in

legal jail for two years.

And you went to rehab again.

I did, yes.

Well, yeah, it was like I went to, I went like two more times.

Okay.

Can you just tell us like what your life looks like now?

You're a dad to three.

Three, yeah, three.

Yeah, I run the Small Bow, which is

a recovery newsletter slash podcast.

It's about sobriety, about your sobriety.

Sobriety, recovery, mental health, like, you know, lots of stuff.

It's, we're expanding the definition of recovery.

Great.

It's like we say.

But yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's been as creatively fulfilling as I think I've been searching for my whole entire life.

So I kind of did land on that a little bit.

I mean, it's a great newsletter and everybody should subscribe to it.

I appreciate that.

I read it religiously.

Do you feel, I know you said that you're really appreciating what you get out of the small bow now.

Is it, does, do you feel like a different person?

Or do you feel like you're still trying to, I think that's what made me curious about your story is like it feels so different like i when i found out you had kids right and i didn't know you i only knew take care of that baby yeah what

you know like i got scared that it was so drastically different your life was so drastically different that it just made me nervous yeah different stakes at that point right completely different but also

like your day to day every hour is different every hour is different yeah than than it used to be.

Yeah.

The way you spend every minute of your day seems quite different

than it was at the height of the Gawker era.

Right.

And

I hope you don't miss it, but like, do you feel like a different person?

Yeah, of course.

The thing that worries me more being sober is not like I'm not going to drink or do drugs, probably not.

Right.

But I don't know how to be ambitious

sober without being an asshole right and

what what if would you make that fix who cares

i'm an asshole it becomes something that's self-destructive for me okay okay and there's a self-destructive element to that that i worry about right and meaning like an asshole to your to julianne or no to just be chasing something else that will kind of just like apparently make me feel good but i will do anything to get it, right?

And kind of forgetting that there are other people in my life who

I need to respect, right?

And sometimes that when I was ambitious during that period of time,

I was not, right?

I mean, I ran over people.

Well, ruthless ambition is not something to aspire to, I don't think.

No, it's not.

But I mean, I didn't know what good ambition was.

Like, the small is now a company, and I have a CEO, and we have, you know, other product people, like people working on it and stuff like that.

And, you know, there are times where I'm just like, no, man, I want it all back.

I can do this better.

I can be like, you know, just that shit.

Yes.

Right.

And that's not good for anybody.

That like really infects the whole entire room of my life, my household, yell at my dogs more, like, whatever.

I mean, it's just.

I have a girlfriend who said something five years ago that that just i mean jaw on the floor for me she was like you know what i've decided i've decided um

i'm not gonna do anything great

man that's the wisest thing i think i've ever heard killed me

i was simultaneously so sad and so jealous yeah that she could say that out loud it was like she's like yeah i just think yeah i did all the stuff i want to do i'm just going to raise my kids and be a wife and have a regular job.

And I was like,

what?

It was like, when I started the small bow, I had no means of consistency.

I was, I always blew deadlines.

I was always unreliable.

I would always kind of just like, you know,

when I was at the height of my, my, my.

drugs and alcohol stuff, like Wednesday at like three o'clock, I could function for like two, two hours, maybe get all shit done then.

Sometimes it would be incredible.

Some, most of the times, not so much, right?

But like, you know, the reason the small bill goes out on like, you know, Tuesday at 4.15 and then Sunday at this time.

And I was like, if I just hit these deadlines all the time, I don't really care about the quality, right?

Sometimes I just fucking mail it in.

B minus is good enough.

As long as it comes out on Tuesday at 4.15, I know I'll get to an A eventually.

But it has to, because I got to show up, right?

Okay.

Like, and that's it.

And I just like, stick to that.

Like, if I'm consistent and I care about it, good things could happen.

But, like, there's this other stuff.

And

I just talked about this with someone, I forget, where I was just like, yeah, I've won a National Magazine Award.

Like, I don't even like journalism.

I mean,

I just, I just want it so I can stand up there and say, like, hey, suck my dick.

Exactly.

But, like, but I mean, that's, I still, I still have that.

It just doesn't, like, run my life anymore.

And I mean, and are you happier for it?

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, it's just like, because I did, I did achieve, I know that there is no end in sight for those things, right?

That if I do, like, you know,

Gawker was my dream job, like more miserable than I've ever been in my entire life.

If I make $300,000 a year, everything will be fixed.

I'm not a $300,000 a year person.

I spend it poorly.

Right.

You know, some people are not made for that.

And I am not that type of person.

But I mean, I think that like a lot of the, and what's been great for recovery for me is it's given me that other thing to be ambitious about.

Like if I know that I put in this amount of work or talk to this many people or I can go, I have like a, what they call a tool chest, right?

To kind of access when I get real crazy about stuff.

And then like, it comes down.

I stay sober because I do it for other people mostly.

And it's not even like, you know, the, I don't consider the small bow service, but I do take it very, very seriously when I'm asked to sponsor someone or something like that or any sort of 12-step.

Yeah.

I like it.

You know what has been the greatest gift of that trial and all that like horrible shit is that when people go through public disgrace, like I'm kind of on the call list.

Oh.

Oh, you know,

I've had, you know, I've you've seen some cancellations.

Yeah, well, cancellations, but I mean, it's just like, if, you know, if I could tell one person not to kill themselves because their job or their public, like, you know, life blew up, I mean, that's pretty good purpose, I think, right?

You know, and, but I mean, that only happened because of all the crappy shit that happened, right?

Like, that was where I, that was the greatest part about that is that I can have that conversation with people.

Because, you know, the guy that basically I could, the only guy that I talked to during that trial is James Fry.

And everything that I would, and we had known each other a little bit, but I mean, he became like my go-to guy to talk to when I was just like, oh my God, I'm like having this thing.

And then he would tell me this awful thing that happened to him because it was just like, you know, as powerful as like Hulk Hogan and Peter Thiel were at that time, they were not as powerful as Oprah Winfrey, who basically kind of just like, you know, brought him to this level and then just completely burn him.

Yeah.

And,

but he got through it, right?

And like, one of the most interesting things that he told me was just like, you know, this will be around you your whole entire life, but you can still build a life, right?

It doesn't, that doesn't have to clear up before you can start to live your life and build your life.

There are good things that can happen.

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