Best of the Program | Guests: Stephen Moore, Ben Lamm & Richard Werner | 4/10/25

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Stuff that's going to blow your mind. Stephen Moore is on about the tariffs.
Ben Lamb, he is the, you know, the dire wolf that they just produced. Yeah, they're working on bringing back some other animals.
We have a fascinating conversation. And Professor Richard Werner, he is from Germany.
He's the guy who coined the term quantitative easing. They kind of turned it upside down.
A little pissed about that. But he talks about what's really going on with the tariffs, Europe, what Trump is actually fighting that he may not know about.
It is. I learn more in 10 minutes than I've learned in quite a while.
Richard Werner joins us on today's podcast. You don't want to miss it.
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The one, the only good friend of the program Stephen Moore The founder of the Committee to Unleash Prosperity Boy, it has been a It's been a scary few days Stephen The president, you know He is a great negotiator Because he just doesn't blink Some people will say he blinked yesterday I think he just you know, he is a great negotiator because he just doesn't blink. Some people will say he blinked yesterday.
I think he just, you know, he's smart. He's not suicidal.
He's just reevaluating things and doing what, Stephen? Well, good morning, Glenn. You know, look, Trump, one thing I've learned from Donald Trump, having worked with him for the last eight years or so up and on, is he oftentimes the guy is crazy like a fox.
He really is. And so sometimes he's two or three moves on the chessboard ahead of everybody else.
And so I don't I don't know if calling this a retreat is the right way to describe it. No, I don't think so.
But you'll hear the media saying that the media is saying that. And what I'm saying is and maybe it is a retreat, but maybe this was part of the plan all along.
I mean, in terms of, you know, trying to get these countries to come to the table, negotiate. And look, Glenn, you know me.
I'm I'm more of a free trade guy than Trump is. And I'm not a big fan of tariffs.
But if he can pull this off, and this would be a maestro if he could do it, then all of a sudden you get fairer and freer. Yeah, you're breaking up.
Basically agree to level playing field. And so the other thing that Trump is doing, and I think this is masterful, and I agree with him wholeheartedly on this.
Look, there is one major villain in the world today, and that is China. And, you know, you've been on this story a long time, as long as I've known you.
I mean, China is, in my opinion, I don't know if you agree with me on this, they are like Japan circa 1937 oh yeah they really are i mean big time they've japan told us what they were going to do in like 1937 exactly they told us china is now too the same thing yes yes and we're not listening right and so uh you know and what trump is basically doing is and this is a big moment for the you know the world economy for world peace. Trump is saying to these other countries in the world, you've got to make a choice.
Are you with us or are you with China? And I don't even know. These Europeans are so stupid.
You know, they were saying a couple of weeks ago, maybe we'll just trade with China and stop trading with the United States. Now, that that would be a catastrophically bad decision.
But the whole idea here, is I see it, maybe I have, you know, I'm not in Donald Trump's mind. So I, sometimes he sees it way beyond what I do, but I think what he wants to do is, is, uh, basically.
You're breaking up, Steven. You there? What did you just say? You hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now.

What did you just say?

Okay, sorry.

I was saying that I think he wants to decouple.

This is Trump's grand plan.

He wants to decouple the world economy.

Yes, from China.

You got to get into another room or another state.

Have you tried Patriot Mobile?

I will say we are tariffing Stephen's phone call today. So that could be the cause of this, yeah.
Are you on Huawei? Sorry, I lost you there again. We had a bad connection, but I can hear you now.
So he wants the world to decouple from China. But I think also at the same time, he wants the world to the Western world to decouple from this idea of managed decline.
Right. You know, and he's trying to.
And I think this is I think this is hopefully working with the rest of the world. he needs to break all the barnacles off that have just been you know on on the hull of this ship

forever and with the rest of the world, he needs to break all the barnacles off that have just been, you know, on, on the hull of this ship forever now saying, Oh, well, this is the way it's going to be. He's scraping all those barnacles off and saying, no, it's not going to be that way anymore.
So you need to make a decision. You're either going to manage your own decline and throw in with China, or you're going to go a new direction that really only he and Malay and a few others are laying out.
You know, it's so funny you should mention that because do you know who the two most popular politicians in the world are today? Malay and Donald Trump? Oh, I think the two populist, pro-people, pro-free enterprise, anti-big government leaders. And I've been predicting this.
I think I said this on your show a few weeks ago, and I maintain this. I think you're going to see a Trumpian revolution all over the world.
I do, too. I mean, these European leaders, they are so out of touch with their voters.
I mean, remember the very start of the Trump revolution was when Britain was shocked that a majority of their people wanted out of the European Union. They said, we're not going to have these bureaucrats in Brussels tell us how we live our lives and what tea kettles we can use in our kitchen.
And so these arrogant, out-of-touch, self-righteous politicians are going to be thrown out of office for pro-people and pro-working-class politicians. So I think Trump has started a world revolution here.
I really do. Yeah, I think Maloney is in that category.
She's just, I think, a little softer. But I think she could be in that.
I know, I don't know about Marine Le Pen now that they've thrown her out. I mean, that just...
I'm not bogus, I'm bogus. Yeah, it just seems...
They did to her exactly what the left tried to do to Donald Trump. Correct.
A bogus lawsuit. Correct.
And those countries, like France, that are doing that, I think are going to be in real, real trouble. You know, it was interesting to me that the Prime Minister of England came out, Starmer, who is absolutely a WEF clone.
Oh, he's horrible. He's horrible.
And he came out and was like, the age of globalization is over. You can't play this game.
You can't say that and then be part of globalization. It's going to end really badly for him.
Do you agree or disagree? Yeah, yeah. I think Britain is really in bad shape right now, and they need to find a Trump candidate.
And maybe it's, you know, who's the one who, I'm blanking on his name, the guy who led Britain out of, you know, our friend. I haven't had a senior moment here.
Anyway, I do think that's... Nigel Farage.
Nigel, yeah, exactly. And I mean, friends with Nigel, I couldn't remember him.
I know. I think he could be the next leader of Britain.
And so I don't know which way the Europeans are going to go, frankly. I mean, I think they're totally confused with their leadership in these countries.
And by the way, I've got to tell you, Glenn, I've been doing over the last month, almost every day, like BBC and all these European stations and, you know, and some of the Asian stations. And they're so indignant.
And they're like, Trump is causing a trade war. What is it? What is wrong with this guy? Blah, blah, blah.
And I, and I just very calmly say, well, listen, your terrorists in Britain or Germany or, you know, Japan, whatever country it is, you're terrorists of three or four times higher than ours. So you're saying Trump is starting a, starting a trade war.
We're saying you already started the trade war. How can you by yourself racially say, how dare Trump raise a terrorist? Well, you're terrorists up three or three or four times you know what they never even answer the question well because move on here's the thing they expect that to be the norm because we rebuilt i mean the reason why we accepted these things early on was because we didn't want to we wanted to make sure the germans germans not having jobs is a very bad idea.
We wanted Germans to be able to rebuild their factories and Mercedes-Benz and everything else. So we had those, and now they just expect that to be the norm.
And Donald Trump is like, it was the norm. It can no longer be the norm.
And you know what? So you're exactly right about that, Glenn, and I would just add something. One of the things we've learned from this is that...
It's no longer being recorded. Sorry.
One of the things we've learned from this is that... Are you in prison? Are you calling from a prison? I don't know why that happens.
Sorry about that. But what you were just describing, that kind of American relationship with, like, rebuilding Europe, it's like the welfare state, you know, where people become dependent on the welfare state.
And Europe is dependent on the welfare that we give them. And that's why one of the first things Trump did that I thought was so fantastic is that, you know, if you're not paying your NATO dues, we're out.
And again, they ditched and they moaned and they complained. But guess what? They played their note.
I know. You know, I mean, I just think the indignation and the self-righteousness and the sense of entitlement of these countries, it drives me absolutely nuts.
So let me ask you, the stock market is down again? Down again, yeah. Why? It's been topsy-turvy for a while.
Well, that's a good question, why? I don't know. Okay.
I mean, who knows why? It was way up yesterday. Dow Jones on a point basis was up more than any time at any day in American history.
But look, it's going to be up and down, up and down until this reset happens. And so it's going to be topsy-turvy, I think, for the next several months.
So get ready for that, folks.

But at the end of the day, I think Trump will prevail. I think we're going to have a much secure economy.
And these countries are going to stop treating us like we're daddy war bucks. So because we're out of – we're seemingly never out of war, but we are out of bucks.
There you go. Stephen, yesterday I sent you something about the basis trade, and this is something that's so in the weeds for most people.
But what's happening to the hedge funds and our bonds, and that looked really frightening. Is that going to stop? Because that was something that they were doing before.
It might have been blown over with a feather of Trump, but this is something that's been going on, and there are deep, deep cracks in it. How's that? How's that going? Well, yeah, so just for background, what happened starting a few days ago is that foreigners started to sell their U.S.
bonds. And that happened in Japan.
And then Russia was selling some of their bonds. China was selling their bonds.
And the interest rate on those bonds, when people sell bonds, that means you have to pay more interest to get people to buy them. And so the interest rate went from like three and a half to four and a half.

Not exactly, but almost up a full percentage point.

And so that's bad for America because that means, you know, we owe $35 trillion and the debt turns over. And that means, you know, when those bonds come due, then we have to issue new bonds at a higher interest rate.

And as you know, you've reported on this many times, you know, I think interest expenses are like the second highest expenditure on our federal budget. So, you know, but, you know, if you're not going to invest in U.S.
bonds are still the safest in the world by far. There's not no other, you know, are you going to buy Russian bonds? Are you going to buy European bonds? So I'm not too concerned about it.
I think that, but China has several trillion dollars of our bonds. And this is why having such an enormous deficit is a problem.
Because then we have to borrow money from people we don't want to have to borrow money from. Right.
Are they, I mean, they're serious.

We just said Trump is serious on China,

trying to jump serious on us.

Are they able to dump our bonds, survive?

Are they able to really fight this war out?

I mean, they're not.

This is the key insight that Donald Trump has made, which is so right on the mark, that our economy is still substantially bigger than China's. In fact, our stock market is five times higher than China's.
So they're not even close with respect to the net worth of their companies. I mean, you just take the seven, the Magnificent Seven.

They have more value than every company in China.

So we have a huge lead on them.

And the fact is that now, look, they've been catching up, no question.

And look, I want to give you guys, you know, your listeners a little history lesson.

What happened in China, and first of all, Mao was the greatest villain who ever lived probably in the history of mankind. He murdered 100 million people of his own people, and yet he's still on the currency.
They still have pictures of Mao. That would be like us putting Benedict Arnold on our currency.
Then you had the free market revolution that happened in the early 1980s, which was amazing. It shows what they went from communists overnight to free markets and their economy exploded, exploded for about 20 years.
Then we decided to let them into the World Trade Organization because they were on the road to freedom. And then President Xi comes in and he goes back to communism.
That's I mean, this is an oversimplification, but not much of one. So we're not dealing with a free enterprise.
We are we are dealing with a very dangerous country right now. And Xi has said this in 20 years.
He said, we want China to take over the world. Yes.
And we we were just sitting by and letting that happen. And Trump finally said, no, that isn't going to happen.
Now, look, we have benefited over the last 30 years from being able to get cheap things from China, but their economy is completely dependent on having access to America's $20 trillion consumer market. If Trump says you don't have access to that anymore, they go through a Great Depression that makes what happened in the United States in the 1930s look like a picnic.
And that's the leverage that Trump is using with China. He's saying that you either start behaving yourself or we're going to throw you into the worst depression you ever had.
Now, it will hurt us, but it's not going to hurt us nearly as much as it's going to hurt them. So that's where we're at right now.
It'll hurt the people that shop at Walmart hardest. Right.
You know, the bottom of the society, you know, the ones that are just scraping by all the time, they're the ones that are going to be hit the hardest here in America. But it is something where we're just going to have to help our neighbors more, not expect the government to do it, but help our neighbors more because it is crucial that we decouple the world and ourselves from China as much as we can.
So I know we're on. Real quick.
I'll make one other quick point. We have to have a movement, you and I, called Sell China.
And what I mean by that is every one of us as citizens of this great country, just make a point of it, just stop buying things from China. You might have to pay $ dollars more for a pair of shoes you may have to buy you know pay three dollars four dollars more for the t-shirt do it if you love your country stop buying china yep uh thank you so much appreciate it steven moore so she didn't think it would ever happen to her not in her own neighborhood not on a t morning, not before she even had her coffee.
But there she was, standing in the driveway in her robe and socks, watching some dude try to break into her car like it was his full-time job. She yelled, the guy looked up, but he didn't run.
That's the moment it got real. She didn't want to hurt anybody, but she wasn't going to stand there in her robe and slippers and just try to negotiate either so she knew where a burner launcher was she hit him with a couple of rounds from a burner launcher she was carrying in a second uh she was down or he was down sorry on the ground in pain out of commission for a while he started to get up and then she hit a co2 cartridge full of tear gas and uh he didn't move again well he rolled around the ground going my eyes my eyes that was a problem you know police came that gave him a washcloth it was all right burn a launcher it means business i have one my wife has one uh i've given it to all the members of my family as soon as they turned 18 because it's legal in all 50 states burn a b-y-r-N-A dot com slash Glenn.
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This is the best of the Glenn Beck program. Richard Werner, he is an economist.
You can find him at ProfessorWerner.org, ProfessorWerner..org Richard Werner, Professor, how are you, sir?

Very well, thank you

Good to be on your program

Yeah, good to have you on again

You're looking at the situation

And it is changing by the hour

What are you feeling?

Especially, you're from Germany

Are you still in Germany today?

Or are you here in the United States? I'm actually in the u.s in the u.s right all right um what is happening in germany and in europe and and how is how's this whole trade thing affecting everybody well it is affecting uh everyone because you know if you if you have the sort of list of tariffs that were announced last week, presently suspended. But if you look at the numbers for some countries, there were significant changes.
And potentially, even now that they're being suspended, but they're still in place with China, very, very high numbers. You mentioned, you know, and the triple digit percentage tariff for China and China retaliating and this escalating.
That is very dangerous because China is part of supply chains across the globe, even involving other countries. And of course, the U.S.
I mean, I mean, President Trump has a point. The U.S.
is the most attractive market. Everyone wants to export to the U.S.
So it's true that the U.S. has some leverage there.
The question is, you know, what do we want to achieve and how do we go about it in order to make sure we actually achieve it? At the moment, there is a risk. The situation will escalate, particularly this confrontation now laser-focused on China is the bad guy.
And, you know, you see, in Asia, it's very important not to lose face and not to be publicly accumulated. And at the moment, you know, because that's why they can't know, they can't easily give in.
One has to create an opportunity, an opening for compromise or, you know, even for China to give in. So what would be allowed? You know, at the moment, the way it's done is very hard.
President Trump said this yesterday. He said, look, it's important in China that they don't lose face, that they're not humiliated.
And he said, I feel like they feel like they're being humiliated right now. So what should he be doing while still staying tough? What kind of opportunity should be presented to de-escalate this? I think it's important to take it off the, I mean, President Trump is very transparent, and does things publicly, but maybe in this case, where we are at this point, it's important to take it off the public focus and have some private conversations with Chinese leadership and maybe they even suggest a way in which this may be done.
Essentially one needs asaving solution that makes both sides look good. This

can be done because the Chinese are as much interested in making a deal as President Trump is. The Chinese are famous for commerce, for trading, for doing deals.
So it just has to be done in such a way that they're not forced into a corner. And then they feel obliged to also, you know, stand up to what appears to be bullying to them and appear tougher than they actually should be at this stage.
So I think it can be done. I mean, I'd be glad to help, you know, get me into the Trump team.
I've got good relations. I was invited to be professor of finance at one of their top universities, Fudan in Shanghai, met very senior people in China.
And I mean, I've been in Japan for 12 years. I know how to talk to Asia.
At the moment, there is perhaps this lack of the right approach. but it's fantastic news as you mentioned that president trump is now acknowledging this and i think this this creates an opening with the right advice the other point i'd like to make actually is that um i think it's it is very smart of president trump to raise fundamentally you know the trap the tariff issue and how the U.S.
had not always been treated equally by other countries when it comes to trade and tariffs.

That is very valid. And tariffs in history have been, well, actually mixed, but have been very successful and good for America and also for other countries that use them if and when they're used in combination with the right policies, domestic policies.
And that's where I think the Trump team still needs some good advice. The Trump team knows that this official mainstream neoclassical economics is not to be trusted, and that's very true, but they're still lacking the right advice.
I'm an expert in high growth economics, and I think the U.S. can have 15% growth for 40 years like China had.
This can be done. There is no real option.
What needs to happen? If you have the right policies in place. What needs to happen? What is he missing? Because I think what's missing is the Congress doing their job and putting other things in place.
What are you saying is missing? Yes. Well, a key thing is to do with money and those who create money.
Now, the Fed has created a lot of money, far too much, you know, in the past years, and has caused inflation and everything. But actually, normally, central banks only create 3% of the money supply.

97% of the money supply normally is created by who? The banks, the banking system. And the banks normally, and this is capitalism, where you don't have central planners making decisions, but you've got private commercially oriented enterprises making decisions.
And so the more diversified your banking system, and particularly the more small local banks you have, the stronger your economy, the stronger job creation. And that's where in the past the U.S.
has been extremely strong, but in recent years under other presidents and other regulatory authorities have really reduced the number of small local banks. I mean, there's been a collapse in the number of community banks and local banks almost across the United States, and that's very bad for job creation of small firms and their competitiveness.
And China is the best case in point. They used to have this centralized Soviet-style system with only one bank, and then when the leader Deng Xiaoping came to power in 1978, he felt, let's forget about all this ideology under Mao, Chairman Mao.
Let's deliver outcome. Let's deliver performance and growth.
How do we do it? Well, let's learn from those who did it. And he went to Japan

and asked the Japanese, what's your secret of success? And they told him, you need banks.

How many banks do you have? One bank? Are you serious? For 600 million people at the time,

something like that. Well, you need more banks than that.
How about 5,000? And that's what he

did. So he went back to China and created 5,000 small banks, local banks, village banks,

Thank you. You need more banks than that.
How about 5,000? And that's what he did. So he went back to China and created 5,000 small banks, local banks, village banks, credit unions, regional banks, rural savings banks, provincial banks.
So what does Trump need to do to do that here? That lends to small firms. Sorry? What does he need to do to create that here? What should he be encouraging? Well, first of all, one needs to take the pressure off the small banks to merge because the Federal Reserve and the FDIC have been closing banks and forcing them to merge.
That's why thousands of banks have disappeared in the U.S. I mean, job creation, politicians talk about job creation, but who is the main employer? It is small firms.
SMEs, small and medium-sized enterprises, employ between 65% and 75% of total employment. And there is a special thing about small firms.
They can't get money from capital markets. Wall Street is not open to them.
The only external source of funding is banks. Local banks.
With banks, we have another rule. Big banks don't lend to small firms.
It doesn't make sense. So who lends to small firms? It's only small banks.
And that's why America in the past was very strong. When they were, you know, going a few decades back, we had more than 20,000 banks, mostly these thousand, thousand small local banks, community banks.
And that was great. But the regulators and the centralization have led to mergers and the number of banks have been going down rapidly.
FDIC closing down healthy banks. For some reason, they think it's a good idea.
Same in Europe. You know, the ECB, European Central Bank says we have too many banks.
We have to close the small local banks. Well, that's how you kill the middle class.
That's really what happened to the middle class, that the small firms are not supported anymore. You know, when there's a new technology coming out, the small firms, they're not necessarily the innovators, but they're the ones that have to quickly adapt, adopt the new technology.
And for that, you need money. If you have a small local bank that knows you, you will get your funding, you can upgrade, you can maintain your market share and stay competitive, expand jobs, basically.
But in countries where the banking system gets too concentrated, the U.S. is now at risk of becoming one of those countries.
I know. For example, look at the U.K., you know, five big banks.
The small firms get nothing from these big banks. But isn't this...
They can't afford to do the small loans. They have to do big business.
They lend to the hedge funds and private equity funds in billions. And that works for the big banks.
Is it really good that the US is heading that way? No. We have to change that.
So we have to change policies at the FDIC and also at the Fed. They have to be bank-friendly and therefore small-firm-friendly and therefore employment-friendly.
So if we combine the tariffs with the right monetary and banking policy, the U.S. can be hugely successful.
I mean, you know, Glenn, you've got good connections. Help me to get to the Trump team.
I'll put a word in for you, but I mean, I'm lucky to talk to the janitor. So, Richard, let me go to Europe here for a second, because I think what Trump is trying to do on many of his things is to break this elite, almost World Economic Forum grip on dismantling the West.
He doesn't believe in the slow decline of the West. He is looking to change directions 180 degrees.
And I think that's part of what these tariffs on Europe and everything else is to say, look, we're going in a different direction. We have to go in a different direction.
Who's with me? Do you read it that way or not? Well, I think that certainly is one possibility, and that would be a good goal because Europe is really still under the thrall of, you know, World Economic Forum and the deep state, and including the U.S. deep state.
You know, it's still very active in Europe. We mustn't forget that.
So sometimes when President Trump ends up arguing with European leaders, he is still arguing with his old enemy, which is the CIA. They're running Europe.

They've got all their assets in place.

And of course, the World Economic Forum is a CIA asset. It was under Kissinger

that the CIA funded this

program which brought Karl Schwab to

the fore.

President Trump needs to realize

that he's still fighting the

old enemy, but now

he won domestically, but the old enemy is strong in Europe and other places still, where they've had their foothold through traditional military foreign bases where the U.S. Army is and so on, Japan included.
And that explains a lot of this friction. And so, yes, in many ways, it's good that Europe sees, OK, there's going to be a change of policy.
But they're just going to now, while they're still under instruction from their miners at the CIA, they're just really agitating against the United States, against Trump.

They're talking about, well, we have to decouple.

We can't trust America anymore at all.

And when the reality is they're now just totally still following their minders,

the deep state minders, that's brilliant. It's really brilliant.
I mean, he, he, George RR Martin and game of Thrones, you know, made dire wolves popular in pop culture. Many people think they're a myth, but you know, they were a, a, an American wolf.
They were the largest, strongest American wolf. And, you know, we got challenged, you know, you know, we're working on the mammoth and Tasmanian tiger and the dodo, but we got challenged by some of our indigenous partners and the government and a few others saying, why aren't you working first on an American species? Like, why are you not prioritizing it? So we got a lot of pressure and feedback.
And and then when we when we got close to it, we were like, well, if we don't bring George R. Martin, we're kind of mean.
He's the guy that made him the most popular. You know, it kills me.
Everybody has saw, I mean, I did the same thing. I saw the video of the, you know, the wolves howling and stuff as little babies.
And I'm like, Oh, that's so cute. They're an apex predator.
They are. They are been gone for now 10,000 years.
Why bring them back? So colossal is a de-extinction and species preservation company, right? And so we're going to lose up to 50% of biodiversity now in 2050. And so we need new tools in the fight, right? We think it's better to have a de-extinction toolkit than not need it, than not have a de-extinction toolkit than need it.
And so we're working on all these different species. And we started having meetings with MHA Nation, one of the largest tribal groups here in the United States.
And they started giving us the feedback that, you know, we need to do more for wolf conservation, not going on with wolf conservation. It would be amazing if we could work on something like the great wolf.
So then they started telling us that from their oral tradition, they believe that the great wolf was the dire wolf. And I kind of sat with you.
I was like, oh, the Game of Thrones wolf. And so we had these great conversations.
And then a few months later, we were in North Carolina and we learned that the most endangered wolf in the world is the American wolf, the red wolf. There's only 15 left.
And so like when you think about Americana, you think about the bison and you think about the bald eagle and you think about wolves, it would be a travesty to lose these. And it's like, they've been on the endangered.
But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I mean, I live in for half the year in a place that has mountain lions and wolves.
They're both very, very important to have, but they're also spooky as hell. Uh, and you talking about preserving that species.
You just introduced a species that's been gone for 10,000 years. Yeah, we have.
And they are on a secure, expansive ecological preserve in the north. And if they ever go back into the wild, it will be in collaboration with the government as well as some of the tribes.
And they would go back on secure private lands. They are rewilding direwolves.
I mean, you're not really walking down the street worried about direwolves. Yeah.
Well, I just know last time the government got involved with wolves, it was at Yellowstone. And that didn't work out well for anybody.
No, rewilding works as long as it's done thoughtfully and managed. And the problem is, is sometimes people just get so overzealous on certain sides of the table that they just go out and, you know, muck with nature.
It really needs to be studied. It really needs to be managed.
It needs to be thoughtfully taken out. But a lot of times people don't realize that, and they just get overzealous, right? And they politicize it.
At the end of the day, losing biodiversity, it should be a bipartisan issue. And we really need to save these animals.
And so by doing what we're doing, though, Glenn, we're actually building technology to save animals. And so we were actually able to clone.
No one's talking about this, which is crazy. We were actually able to clone four red wolves, uh, with more genetic diversity than the existing 15 that are still left in the wild.
That's a 25% bump in genetic diversity that, that has been gone, you know, for tens, you know, for, you know, over a decade. Okay.
So, um, I mean, you, you describe your company i'm sorry i love the technology i love what you're doing i love the way you think but i'm also it's also terrifying we've we've we've we've talked a lot about it right okay yeah i know we in on our last time we talked you asked about the cia because incutel is an investor but you know since we fall into a category called synthetic biology, right? So being able to use AI and software, as well as being able to edit and rewrite genomes is really critical technology. It's as important as technology is, space technologies and other defense related technologies, and our adversaries are advancing these technologies.
So we are trying. So let me, because I, this is like everything now, especially with AI and any of this, you know, CRISPR, all of this technology.
You can't stop it. You can't put it back in the bottle because others are doing it.
What China is doing with this on trying to breed smarter humans, stronger humans, you know, fighters. I mean, it's it's the stuff of Nazi movies movies.
That's what they've, that's actually what they've said publicly. So everything you're saying is what they've said publicly.
They said that the Beijing genomics Institute is sequencing as many humans as possible. They use COVID as this ruse to like pull in as many samples as possible, sequencing them.
And then they said, we're looking for the genes that make the smartest people, and we are going to engineer people. I mean, that's not even like crazy, concerned, you know, conspiracy.
They have said that out loud. So what have they not said out loud? Right.
Any idea what they haven't said out loud? Well, I mean, if you think about what Colossal is trying to do, right, is we're trying to at least do it. We don't do anything with humans.

So we do, even though we work with the federal government, we do have this kind of moratorium that we are not working on humans, only on animals. And we won't even work on, you know, non-human primates.
So we're only working on species that are working. But we are advancing these technologies that have applications to humans, right? And, you know, we are understanding from like a 72,000-year-old skull

what made a dire wolf bigger and stronger.

It had a bigger jaw and stronger muscles and denser bones.

We can now understand that with our technologies

and engineer that into its closest living relative

being the gray wolf, right?

And so think about that same type of data

applied to humans, right?

I think that you can look at it as, you know, adversarial countries can advance these technologies in a way where they can look at how can we enhance humans. And so for us, I think we as an American company that works very, very closely with the federal government, the secretary of interior just endorsed our work and we work very closely with the Department of Interior.
It's not necessarily an endorsement that my audience likes. You should de-emphasize that with my audience because that's not a good thing.
It's not what anyone likes. It's just about transparent.
Right. Okay.
All right. Yeah, good for you.
Good for you. I think it's important for us to always be – Colossal, we're pretty bipartisan.
We work with both sides. Yeah.
But I do think it's important to be transparent when things happen. And I think that us as America has to lead in synthetic biology.
And Colossal is one of the most advanced synthetic biology companies. So what is the difference between directed evolution and playing God? It's a great question.
You asked me this last time, right? I think that we as humans play God quite a bit, right? And so I'll look at it from an ecosystem's perspective.

When we overfish the ocean or we cut down too much of the rainforest, we are playing

God on some level when we eradicate species.

But now we have these tools and technologies that we can biobank species, protect them,

and even bring them back, right?

And I think this is going to be really helpful for how we balance progress as well as how

we balance protection.

And I think this is going to be really helpful for how we balance progress as well as how we balance protection. And I think that we need these tools more now than ever because we could lose up to 50% of biodiversity, all life on earth between now and 2050.
That's the current trend line. So, you know, AI is dangerous.
It's glorious and horrifying at the same time. Just depends on, you know, who's using it and how that thing goes.
Um, and it's why Elon Musk says we have to have, we have to have the singularity as, as defined as a human So we merge as one. That's something of sci-fi movies.
Do you believe that the genetic editing tech that you are helping to design is going to be transferred to humans? Is there a time that you think, oh, well, that probably has to? I think that we will be able to look. So one of the biggest things that Colossal works on is what's called multiplex editing, being able to edit multiple parts of the genome at the exact same time.
Right. And so that's part of what we really, really need to continue to advance because most disease states,

specifically ones that drive, you know,

predispositions to cancer and Alzheimer's and others are multigenic in nature.

Right. And so for us, I think it's very,

very important to advance those technologies so that you've probably heard

about sickle cell anemia where there's CRISPR tools and technologies that are

being used to do a single knockout. But most genes or most of these states are multigenic in nature.
So you have to be able to edit multiple parts of the genome. So I do think that a lot of our technologies will be beneficial long-term to helping cure inherited disease states in humans.
And I think that's a good thing. How much of this is AI driven? I'd say 30% of our work, what wouldn't be possible without AI.
And imagine that number is growing exponentially. I mean, I know.
Exponentially, exponentially. You know, you named the dire wolves, Romulus and Remus, and I'm not a mythology expert, but I do know abandoned birth, raised by wolves, founded Rome, yada, yada.
But didn't Romulus and Remus, and I'm not a mythology expert, but I do know abandoned birth, raised by wolves,

founded Rome, yada, yada.

But didn't Romulus also kill Remus?

Yeah, Romulus loves Remus.

Romulus is the bigger one, but they do love each other pretty well.

So we're hoping that not all of history will repeat itself, right?

Including the fall of Rome.

So we're pretty bullish on that it'll work out better this round. Good, good.
So am I, I guess. I mean, I guess we're rooting for that.
All of us are together on that one. That's a great goal to have.
We're all rooting for the non-fall of Rome. What's the next thing that you can talk about that you're going to tell the world about someday? Yeah, so, I mean, we're making a lot of progress.
I think we're on the very cusp of a pretty big breakthrough for the Dodo project, right? So, talking about balance, going from direwolves to dodos. We made some updates on the Tasmanian Tiger, another apex predator that we announced last year.
Can we slow down on the apex predators? They're very important. Elephants kill more people than wolves.
There's only been five wolf confirmed attacks in the last 100 years. You have a higher probability of getting struck by lightning while getting eaten by a shark than getting attacked by wolves.
No, I know that. Have you ever been in the wild and a wolf? I've been in quite a bit of the wild, yeah.
With a wolf by yourself? You know, a wolf walks up? Terrifying. Well, I've actually never been.
I've been very close to wolves in certain ecological preserves. Yeah, no, I've been on my own land and a wolf walks out from the bushes and you're like, oh, dear God, because they are spooky.
It's definitely spooky, right? I'm not scared of mountain lions and wolves personally, but I saw a mountain lion once. The scariest thing I ever saw was I was actually in Cape Tribulation in Australia once and a cassowary, a bird, walked out.
And that thing's like a living velociraptor. And it was just me.
I was by myself and I was like, I'm going to die because they're very aggressive. They're very hard to even see them.
But, yeah, I mean, look, living with nature is what we got, right? We got to figure out how we do that. But our next species that we'll probably have some big updates on is the dodo.
We're really close to a fundamental step in the dodo resurrection. We don't have dodos.
We won't for a long time. But I do think that we are pretty close to a fundamental step that we'll be able to announce.
One last thing. You say that you are trying to help species survive because we're going to lose all these species.
Why are you bringing back things like the direwolf that humans didn't have anything to do with the extinction? Why are you bringing those back? So anthropologic effects, if you look at kind of the rise, if you look at kind of the rapid, younger, dryness cooling period, also compared globally, not just in America, the rise of anthropologic effects. Early humans did drive a lot of the extinction of megafauna here in the United States as well as globally.
I do think that there's a lot of data that's starting to suggest some of the effects of the younger dryness cooling period. That was a rapid period that may have had meteorological effects that affected it, right? And so for us, we want to build these, we want to use these technologies to bring back these species so that we can study them, so that we can look to rewild them if it makes sense, and also pair them to build technologies for wolves, right, in the case of the dire wolf or Asian elephants in the case of the mammoth.
And one of the things that no one really talks about is every single week we get dozens of letters from parents and kids and pictures of little woolly mammoths and dodos, hopefully now dire wolves. And people are telling us and teachers are telling us that their kids are excited about science now, right? And people are getting more and more excited about science.
And so if you ask a teacher or a parent about Colossal, many of them know, more teachers and parents know, because their kids are telling them in the classroom. And I think we need science now more than ever.
And I think getting kids excited about science through de-extinction while also helping conservation is a really good thing. Ben, there is no better spokesperson for Colossal than you.
Colossal co-founder and CEO Ben Lamb. Thanks, Ben, for being on.
I appreciate it. God bless you.
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