Ep 263 | How Obama Weaponized His Deep State Against Hero Vets | Gina Keating | The Glenn Beck Podcast

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Over the past few months, classified document releases have shown us just how frightening the government can be.

They can go after anybody, for seemingly any reason, and there's little to anything that you can do to stop them.

Or at least that's how it might seem.

But as my guest today proves, the government is not invincible.

I am so excited to talk to Gina.

She is a lifelong liberal.

She's an investigative journalist who discovered a very dark secret about an administration she trusted.

But unlike many in the media, she actually questioned and then got all kinds kinds of pushback and she started wondering, wait a minute, what's happening here?

She decided she was going to do everything she could to uncover the real truth, no matter what it meant.

And she ended up saving the lives of four American heroes.

You're going to love this conversation.

Please welcome Gina Keating.

Morning decisions.

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Hi, Gina.

Thank you for coming on the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

You know, I said right before we went on, I said, thank you for writing this book.

And you started to say,

my pleasure, but then you stopped yourself.

And you said, well, not really my pleasure

because this is a really hard subject.

But

I'm guessing it is your honor to do it.

We live at such interesting times right now where nobody's willing to tell the truth, look into the truth, even challenge themselves on the truth.

And to be able to do something as important as what you did in this book, what an honor for

you to be, and for them and for all of us to witness it.

So, thank you.

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel about it.

It was my honor.

And I always tell them that whenever they thank me for anything.

Yeah.

This story changed me in a lot of ways.

And I kind of go into that in the book.

Yeah.

But, you know, I've been a journalist for 40 years.

So.

you lose a little bit of the

conviction that you went into it with.

And it takes a story like this to remind you what your job is.

I really want to go there, but let me start with, for anybody who doesn't know the story, what's the story of Raven 23?

The story is that

these four guys who were from a Blackwater

personal protection detail, well, actually, they were a TST team, tactical support team, that were supporting a U.S.

diplomat or another team that was rescuing a U.S.

diplomat from a bombing in Baghdad were fired upon in Nisir Square, which is the name of the traffic circle that they were hoping that this other team would come through.

They got into a firefight.

Some gunmen were killed.

A couple of civilians were killed.

And they returned to the green zone not thinking anything about this.

But because of various factors, including the timing of this, but also

the fact that it got on CNN and, you know,

U.S.

cable news quite quickly and was played repeatedly, they were accused of perpetrating a massacre.

And they were put on trial three times in the United States and were put in prison essentially for their rest of their lives over this incident.

And I remember this at the time because everybody was eager to say, oh, Blackwater is so evil.

We weren't so willing to say the American soldier was evil,

but we were willing to throw Blackwater under the bus.

I don't know if Blackwater has ever recovered from any of that.

But

what was your view of Blackwater at the time?

Oh, I thought the same thing as everybody else.

I was against the war.

I didn't think that we needed to have mercenaries fighting it for us.

If Congress could not raise an army of volunteers i didn't think we needed to be in there right right and has that any of that changed in the pursuit of this story

uh i still think that it was a mistake to go in there i think that we went in for the wrong reasons uh and you know the the

outcome is i think supports that view yeah i think so too but here's the deal you know at the time we told these kids and they were kids that this these people were threatening our way of life and we we needed to do something about it.

And every single one of the guys that I represented in this book were absolute believers in that.

They did exactly what they were supposed to do.

They went there with exactly the right attitudes, and they were rewarded in a very bad way.

So, the first time this happened, didn't this happen under George W.

Bush?

Yes.

Yes.

The incident happened under Bush, but this, you know, dragged out for three presidential administrations.

So

were they arrested under Bush?

They

were just questioned under Bush.

They were questioned and then they were, they actually surrendered at the Salt Lake City federal courthouse and I believe that was in 2008 or 2009.

Okay, so under but then the case was but then the case was dismissed shortly after Obama came in.

So then why and then re and then reinstated.

Yeah, so why like because it was like two years later, all of a sudden they think everything everything is fine.

And then two years later,

they bring it up in court again.

And they're in court.

What happened?

Right, exactly.

Well,

the case was thrown out by Judge Rubina, who was

a Clinton appointee,

for

the reasons that there was no evidence to support a massacre.

The prosecutors

were very vindictive about the case and were basically violating ethical and constitutional protections.

And so he threw it out.

But what we discovered after

doing some investigation was that there were foreign policy objectives that were going to be served by bringing them back to court.

What were the foreign policy objectives?

Basically, that

the Obama administration was

intent on making sure that Nouri al-Maliki was the Iraqi prime minister because they felt that they could work with him.

They didn't really know whether, because they had put him in power basically, whether they could really work with a democratic,

a democratically elected candidate because people were furious over in Iraq about the state of affairs.

I mean, they had no infrastructure.

There was a civil war raging.

People wanted, you know, the Iranians had basically infiltrated the Iraqi government in many ways, and they wanted Blackwater and all the contractors out of there so they could do whatever they wanted.

Right.

So, as a,

what, as a way to gain favor with the public?

Yes.

Obama gave these guys up.

Well, essentially, I mean, you know, that I don't know what happened in their meetings, but we do have some diplomatic cables that are in the book

from

the charge d'affaire, Robert Ford, to Hillary Clinton, saying that as soon as Judge Urbina threw the case out, there was a huge uproar in Iraq, in the media,

in the mosques, in the government.

Everyone was speaking out about the fact that the Americans could do whatever they wanted in Iraq and kill everybody and have no consequences.

So these guys literally became the sacrificial lambs for the rest of our screw-ups in Iraq.

And so then at what point were they convicted?

They were convicted in 2014.

So

three of them.

This is the third time now that they're being tried.

Well,

the first time they weren't tried.

First one was about

09 maybe.

Yeah.

And then this is the second trial.

Correct.

So they were supposed to go on trial in February of 09,

I think that's right, or February of 10.

Right.

And Judge Urbina threw the case out before that.

So it had been worked up.

They went to a grand jury and did all that.

But then Judge Urbina threw it out and they had about maybe 18 months.

And the government, the DOJ started trying to figure out a way that they could bring it back with no evidence,

with evidence that they had been shot at

and, you know, witnesses from Nissar Square who told a U.S.

Army investigator that in fact there were gunmen in the square.

So the government had a huge hill to overcome and so they had to figure out exactly how they were going to get it past a grand jury and so they they brought it back

for one another grand jury that got thrown out and then a third grand jury they finally got what they wanted and tried them in 2014, got their verdict in April, I think it was October, and then in April they were sentenced.

And that's when I found out about

Nick Slattin was sentenced to life in prison and the other guys were sentenced to 30 years

to life based on a weapons charge

because they were carrying weapons that the government assigned to them that were used in the commission of a felony.

That was kind of really ridiculous, but that was that's what drew the mandatory sentence.

Okay, so when this happens, this is when your dog comes to the back door through the screen door, right?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

So I mean, if this isn't providential, I don't know what is.

I'm telling you, it really was.

So

I had just finished the first book that I did, which was Netflix,

a book about the founding of Netflix.

And

I had moved to Corpus Christi to write it.

And I had fallen in love with this guy who was

an oilfield gauger.

And I was living with him in Taft, which is north of Corpus.

And I had a little dog named Jessica Simpson.

She was a Shih Tzu.

And,

you know, every morning he'd get up and go out to, you have to go to work.

So I'd make his breakfast.

I let her out.

And she came back dragging a newspaper.

And,

you know, I thought, well, we don't get the paper, and we lived in a really blue-collar neighborhood, so I didn't know where it came from.

But she brought it in, and I was putting it up on the counter.

And he grabbed it and opened it and said,

and he was reading it over breakfast and saw that Dustin Hurd,

who he knew that name, had been sentenced to 30 years to life.

And he was just shocked because

Dustin grew up across the street from him with his son.

And

he said, Oh, you know,

I think this is my friend's kid.

And I looked at it and I said, Oh, he was a Blackwater guard.

Yeah, well, he probably got what he deserved.

So

he said, After he confirmed that that's who it really was,

he said, Well, you got to do something about this.

And I said, No way, dude.

You know,

I'm a financial reporter.

Okay.

I did not agree with the

war here.

I don't even know how I would go about doing this because I don't know anything about foreign policy.

It would take forever.

Plus, if my attitude is this bad, there is just no way that anybody is going to is going to look into this again.

And so what changed your mind?

He did.

He just

wouldn't let it go.

You know, he started looking into it and he'd forward me news stories about it and uh so i started reading them and i realized before anything that the stories were pretty one-sided you know i've done a lot of criminal court reporting and you always try to get something from the defense attorneys right most of the time they'll they'll tell you nothing because you know they don't want to you know disadvantage their clients and a lot of times the judges will put a gag order on it but what was really interesting was that it seemed like whoever was leaking to the press, which someone was,

was

obviously from the government.

And there was absolutely nothing about the men, their backgrounds, anything like this.

So they were allowed to exist as these caricatures in the media, which I thought was really unfair.

So that kind of got my interest going.

And then later, he and I went to his hometown where I live now.

And he engineered this meeting with Stacey Hurd, who is Dustin's dad, because I had told him, I said, dude,

I vote Democrat.

I'm a liberal.

These, you know, we're going into deep red Texas, and these people have been totally abused in the media.

There is no way any of them are going to talk to me.

But he managed to get them to talk to me.

And then they gave me the trial transcript.

And I looked at that, and I knew immediately that something was wrong.

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How difficult was it?

Because there's been things that I firmly believed.

And then I get right up on top of it.

I'm like, oh my gosh, I've been wrong.

You know,

I thought I could trust my side.

I thought I could trust my side.

And my side is like...

Not good, you know, doing some really bad things.

And it's hard to admit it.

It's hard to look at it.

It's hard.

I mean, it takes courage and grit to just go, well, but that's the truth.

When did you start having the feeling that, oh my gosh, my side is not the angels that I thought they were?

That would be,

you know, because I had a lot of doubts.

What you're saying is I think every journalist goes through that lately.

It's not something that I remember from back when, you know, when we were younger,

but it's gotten so tribal that I was really worried.

Like I read the transcript and I thought, oh my God, you know, there's at least three Brady violations here.

Why didn't anybody write about this?

You know, this is crazy.

This trial is so high profile.

This is the kind of stuff that, you know, that needs to be talked about, especially because these were the same prosecutors that were investigating the Ted Stevens case that got their hands slapped, that almost got disbarred, and then they're doing it again.

You know, so I don't work in DC, but I'm aware of what the politics are and how hard that can be to go up against the government because they'll shut you out.

You won't get press releases,

they won't return your calls.

It makes your job really difficult to do.

So I understand it.

But what made it really hard was I had the trial transcript.

I had a lot of stuff from the FBI investigation that was really shady.

And when I tried to give it to some of my friends, because I wasn't in, I wasn't working for an outlet at the time.

I tried to give it to them and none of them would touch it.

They would not touch it.

Why?

I went because it, you know, they just, they thought they're, you know, they're the same thing I did.

Like, there's got to be some reason that they did this.

Like, what is the underlying reason that no one is talking about?

Isn't it strange how,

because I've done that a million times and I have to stop myself and go, no, look into it.

Because it's so, we're so trusting that we just assume the government could never do something like that.

Now, there's got to be some, there's something I don't know.

You know, we're just, we've, we've all been conditioned.

We used to all believe, you know, our side used to be all of America's side.

And so we'd believe our government.

Now, you know, it's kind of been split in half, Republicans and Democrats, but we're still now conditioned in our side to believe our side, not the other side.

And

it's, it's bizarre.

It's not just conditioning.

It's peer pressure.

Because,

you know, I, I actually, uh, so I actually, when I was not able to get anybody to look at it at the at the major outlets where I had friends,

I started to get kind of mad about it because people are telling me, don't touch this.

You are going to ruin your career.

Nobody wants to hear about this.

I mean, literally people were saying stuff like that to me.

And I thought, well,

how did we get here?

You know,

there were times earlier in my career, 20 years ago, where my editors were delighted when I would bring in evidence that the government or somebody, you know, a Democrat or whoever was misbehaving because that's what we do.

You know, we are, we're not here to worship the government or anybody in it.

We're here to make sure that they adhere to what they say and what the law is.

So, and I mean, my agent who represented me for the Netflix book, I went to him and I said, Look, this is a fabulous story.

You know, they tried these guys one time.

Now, they're going to try them two more times or Nick Slattin two more times.

They have violated the law every which way that you possibly can.

And the media is not paying attention to it.

And he said, I am, I won't represent a book like that.

I'm morally,

morally, I can't.

And I said, morally?

What's the moral part?

That they work for Blackwater or Eric, you don't like Eric Prince because he's Christian or rich or what?

I did not understand it.

But there was an immense amount of peer pressure.

Wait, wait, wait.

What did he say?

Did he answer that?

Did you ask him?

Morally, what does that mean?

Yeah, Yeah, I said, right.

He just said, I just don't want to support Blackwater or anybody who made money

off the war.

And I said,

but dude, we all voted to do this.

You know, I didn't like it, but the American people wanted us to go in.

And now we have a duty to protect the people.

that went over there and did the job that we wanted them to do.

Good for you.

But I mean, I asked probably two or three times and he absolutely would not do anything about it.

And so I went around to some other people who had done war books and things like that.

And they said, you know, there's no ending to this yet.

So we can't really represent it.

So it was very depressing because I couldn't get anybody interested until Michael Flaherty, who was the co-founder of Walden Media.

He's an evangelical Christian.

He worked for

William Bolger.

He has a lot of friends in the Republican Party and in Fox News.

So he's the one.

He came to me because I had done

a podcast about my Netflix book for Wondry and it was really successful.

So he came to me and said, hey, you know, can I option your book?

And I said, yeah.

And, you know, so we started talking about that project.

And

I said, hey, you know what?

I have this other thing that I just, I can't get it off my mind.

I can't get anybody to look at it.

Do you think, you know, you could look at this for me?

And so I sent him, I I had written so many different proposals for it.

I sent him one and he was within a day on board with it.

And he started taking it around to the conservative media.

And I can't speak to what their agenda was with this, but they embraced it wholeheartedly.

We got to Pete Hegseth and he really, really was the reason that this got to President Trump.

But it was just, it was so disheartening because even when we did a podcast to try to explain the story to counteract what was going on in the media, we were approaching people and looking for this pardon or at least some kind of attention to it.

And people just were so locked in to the version that the government had shopped and the major media had shopped that we made this podcast to really go over very minutely what the evidence was and what it wasn't.

And when I was trying to get interns to come and work on this thing, people who I was going to pay, I couldn't get anybody to do it.

They would literally look at the subject matter and say, I don't want to work on that.

It was, it was unbelievable.

So what does that say to you,

not about journalism, but the

even the journalistic schools that are, I mean, if you're, if you're taking interns, younger people,

You know, when you were young, when I was young, we both knew what a journalist was supposed to do.

You You are, you are not part of the government, you are in opposition to the government.

And it doesn't mean

you're right.

And you are just holding them in check.

And,

you know, it's one thing to be too, too much of a zealot and going after everything.

And, you know, I know they're always lying.

They're turning out to do that.

But,

you know, it's one thing to be maybe overzealous, but

they're on the same team now.

And

that's really dangerous.

What does that say about the next generation that the young ones that should still be idealistic?

I'm standing for these values, don't even know what those values are.

Yeah, I don't know.

It's like some kind of a video game that they live in or something.

You know, it's almost like people don't understand what the...

you know, what the outcome of this type of, you know,

my team, your team interaction is because, you know, the beauty of being a journalist is that you're kind of a no-man.

You know, to live like a journalist is a little bit, I mean, I'm not going to say it's like a monk or anything, but, you know, I never socialized with the people that I covered.

My friends were all reporters because, you know, people felt very uncomfortable hanging around with us because they would, you know, they were worried that we would, we would find out something and investigate them.

And I guess that's that's kind of the way it should be.

And the guys who trained me, I mean, I hate to generalize about them, but they were mainly men,

some women, some really amazing women, who the story was it.

It was about the story.

It wasn't about currying favor with people or, you know, getting points with people for not running something or for running something a certain way.

It just was, it was very pure, in my opinion.

It was, I mean, obviously newspapers always have a point of view, and that's fine.

You know, at least you know what the slant is.

You know who you're talking to.

And, you know, you can read it from a lot of sources.

But to amplify either side with the power of the press,

you need to be cognizant of what that does to the people way down

the ladder.

You know, the story of Raven 2.3 is a story of people who are not getting heard in this country.

And I think that's part of the reason that people are so angry and that they are so tribal.

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I don't, you know, I was struck by something you said earlier that just made me think of

the ends justify the means.

That, you know, we are living now

with a government.

And

I fear both sides of the aisle on this,

that

they don't actually work for the people.

There's no fear of the people anymore.

There's no fear at all.

And

when you have a government that is willing to say, look,

we need this political thing to happen over here, sacrifice those four guys.

People don't understand,

guys, if they do that to them,

then that's already demonstrating it doesn't matter.

If you get in in their way or you can be used as a pawn or a sacrifice or anything else.

You're not viewed as the all-important citizen with rights.

You're just somebody that can be used by the government to do what they need to be done.

Yeah, exactly.

And it just seems so incredibly petty to me that the Obama administration could not figure out how to achieve its ends without doing something so terrible.

And something else that came up when I was doing this investigation, because I was talking to Justice for Warriors and a lot of veterans groups to try to mobilize them, was the number of cases like this in the veteran community, where, you know, for example, there was a guy who was accused and may put on the

sexual offender registry

because,

you know somebody

was intent on showing that the pentagon was doing something about sexual harassment and sexual assaults in the military and the case was just idiotic but there were so many like that where they weren't doing the work of investigating and protecting people and making things better that it was like a show like okay here here's this case i can show you i you know i did something about sexual harassment i did something about us killing a lot of civilians And remember, all of this stuff with the Raven 23 case was happening during the drone war, the Obama drone war, where we were killing all kinds of civilians all over the Middle East.

So, you know, it was very weird.

It was like some kind of deflection of all the other stuff that the government was doing.

And they're blaming it on four guys from little towns who they felt could not fight back.

And that's kind of what I love about this story the most: every single one of these little towns massed an army and fought back.

You

write, thanks to WikiLeaks, we know that behind the scenes, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Vice President Joe Biden, Attorney General Eric Holder pushed for convictions because of political pressure from a corrupt Iraqi government that they wanted to make appear legitimate.

I know it sounds crazy, yet this is what happened and I saw it with my own eyes.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Comment on that.

So,

you know, for a long time, it was pretty obvious, you know, because the defense attorneys told the guys and their families when the trial was going on or when they were indicted initially in 2008 that it was basically a show trial just to show the Iraqis that they were going to hold somebody accountable for the

supposed massacre in Nasser Square.

And they felt, you know, they put on a very small number of witnesses because as one of them told me, you know, we didn't think, they didn't have any evidence, you know, so we just thought we were going to go through the motions and the jury would eventually vote to acquit them.

Well, what they didn't realize was that they were going to be tried in Washington, D.C., where, you know, people are not.

Yeah.

And I mean, they, they, they violated the venue laws in ways that I describe in the book that are just outrageous.

You know, and the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers wrote an amicus brief on their behalf saying if the government is allowed to shop venue anywhere they want, there is just absolutely no guarantee of due process.

So where

they should have been tried was Salt Lake City, where they had another defendant who was

eventually removed from the case or dismissed from the case,

or Sparta, Tennessee, where Nick Nick Slattin is from,

the Dallas area where Paul Slough is from

and Dustin is from Alney, which is you know close to that.

But so all or New Hampshire where Evan's from.

Any of those venues would have been fine, but it wouldn't have guaranteed them the result that they wanted.

So basically

We were kind of like, okay, they take them to DC

and that and that was bad.

I mean, they did fight against it.

But we didn't know for sure that that's what was going on until Kristen Slough's attorney, Dave Harrison, checked WikiLeaks and found those emails between Hillary Clinton and

I think his name is Harold Goh,

who was her chief legal counsel.

And it was literally the day after

the pardons, or not pardons, the dismissal of the case was made public in Iraq.

It was, I think, January 2nd or 3rd.

She immediately emailed him and said, how can we make this case come back?

Oh, my gosh.

And that's literally it.

It's like, so she did that.

And then Joe Biden goes to Iraq about two weeks later and guarantees the Iraqis that, you know, they're going to get justice.

It's like, what?

The second most powerful man in the world

is going on TV and saying essentially that you're guilty and you got away with it.

So if, I mean, there's no way that there is a jury pool anywhere that didn't hear that.

You know, so it's like, why would you do that?

There's no presumption of innocence here when you're out there doing this stuff.

And the reason is because of what else those cables revealed, which was that they were, you know, that they were trying to get Malachi to win in the March election, which was two months away.

And he was complaining to the White House that he needed to look tough

for his constituents.

Those are the words that are in the cables.

And he was demanding that they appeal this decision.

So essentially, American domestic policy and criminal justice is being decided by Nouriel Maliki and the desire to have him as the prime minister of Iraq.

I had a guest on,

well, I don't know, it's been the last 12 months,

a husband who was overfighting in, I think, Afghanistan.

And

they went into a firefight, and it was horrible.

And

one of the people was holding a baby,

a mom.

She was holding the baby, and she had a suicide vest on.

They killed her.

The baby lived.

And the Afghanis that were fighting with the Americans wanted to kill the baby because they were like, that baby will grow up and then be, you know, angry at our side.

And so we got to kill it.

And the Americans were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

And took the baby.

And it eventually went back and forth.

And this guy and his wife decided to adopt the little girl and bring her to America.

But then

the State Department got involved and the state department

right needed to um

have the smooth exit if you could call that smooth and they needed to make a deal and this baby was evidence that there were foreign fighters uh in iraq uh which they had said no there's no foreign fighters so they had to erase this evidence and so they were giving the baby back to nobody.

They didn't even, there was no evidence that this

family was related at all.

It went back and forth.

And here are these, there's a soldier telling me the story and saying, it was my government.

It was my State Department that lied and

made us into the bad guys

because they needed the bad guys to, you know, end the war and end it in the way the State Department needed.

And it's like,

I mean,

how do you tolerate a government that will do all these things?

Well, I mean, they're way more concerned with optics and some bizarre story that they've invented.

And then they just need to erase any evidence that

the opposite is the true.

I mean, that's exactly what happened with the Raven 2.3 case.

And it's just bizarre.

It's like you're spending,

I never got an answer about how much this costs, but I asked some defense attorneys about it.

And they said, okay, three trials and probably at least half a dozen lawyers from the DOJ, not including the support staff, how much it costs to bring something like 46 Iraqis over to testify and keep them here for a month, you know, let some of them stay,

preserve the evidence, which wasn't collected for a month.

uh after the incident it probably cost about 50 million dollars and you're like okay we we can't think of a different way to

that doesn't cost $50 million and

four innocent people in jail.

Really, you can't figure that out.

So, somewhere.

It's just easier.

It's just easier.

People don't matter to this system, it seems.

It's easier.

I mean, I just don't.

I mean,

yeah, I think that's probably right.

And I think that, you know, not everybody in government is bad, but

it's just like what I went through trying to report on this case.

The peer pressure is immense not to divert from what your side is saying.

It is, I mean, almost violent anger when you do that.

And I just don't understand that.

It just is like, how do you get up in the morning and feel like you're doing anything valuable to the rest of society if you have to lie constantly to yourself about what's happening.

I think it's really hard to admit that you've been wrong when you've built your whole life on something you believed in.

And then you realize, oh, I might be part of that.

I don't, I mean, it takes an enormous amount of courage and fortitude to do that.

I mean, you've done it.

I've done it.

But it.

I think there's a lot of people that just, their whole world will collapse around.

They think their whole world will collapse around them if they,

you know,

decide, I'm not necessarily switching horses.

I'm just getting off this horse because this horse is taking me to the wrong place.

Yeah, exactly.

But, you know, I am sympathetic to that because probably I would say the last 10 years of my career as a daily journalist, I understand.

You know, I saw.

every, you know, day to day when I was covering the financial crisis, there were times at Reuters where stories stories were pulled because some hedge fund manager was

mad.

You know, oh, don't report on that, you know, what was happening with the bank collapse because

they pay for a lot of Reuters terminals.

So there's a huge economic

incentive to just go along with it.

And because we do that, we tend to idolize these people who have a lot of money because of the erosion of the middle class.

That's the power.

We have to hang to the tail, you know, tailcoats of people who have money because we don't have that power anymore.

And I guess one of the things that I want to talk, you know, I want to make clear about in the book is you do have power.

You know, we are fighting in exactly the same system that everybody else is right now, but we had it because we stood together and we stood for the truth.

Yes.

I was, I remember the first time I was really disillusioned

by my own side.

It was

2007,

I think, and we were close to the collapse.

And I had been talking about, you know, these CDOs and the way we're making loans on houses and what we're doing, this doesn't make sense.

And I'm not an educated guy.

I'm a self-educated guy, which I think actually in this case helped because I didn't know all of the systems.

You know what I mean?

I could just see none of that makes any sense.

And I was on with a guy who I watched for years, was a financial guy, and I really, really trusted him.

And he had me on, and I talked about it, and he pushed back a little bit.

We had a great conversation.

And once the camera went off, he didn't even look at me.

I got up and I said, thank you so much.

And he said, you're the most irresponsible man I've ever met.

And

I said,

what?

And he said, you're the most irresponsible man I've ever met.

And I said,

did you not agree with me?

And he's like, no, what you said is true, but we have a responsibility not to tell the people because they'll panic.

And I was like, oh, my gosh,

who puts you in that ivory tower?

That is your only job is to tell people what you found and what you believe is true.

And I don't know how do we get that back?

How do we...

How do we turn that corner from a,

you know, the ends justify the means, that the

little guy can be crushed because the system is more important.

How do we get that out of journalism?

Well, I think it's going in the right direction.

You know, what happened with the consolidation of media with corporations was really negative.

You know,

I think that

what you're doing right now and what people like you are doing right now is exactly what we need because people are seeking out the truth.

They want to know.

They want something trustworthy.

And, you know, and it's really interesting because when we first started dabbling in the internet to distribute news when I was, I think I was at Reuters at the time and everybody was trying to figure out how to use all the social media.

And I thought, man, this is really a distraction.

Like, I don't know.

how this is going to work out because everybody can get on and tell a story, whatever they want, want you know and so eventually what it's going to come down to is who is who is proven to be trustworthy correct and telling the truth what and i knew that just because of working with the markets that the markets will always seek the most reliable information.

So whenever I am looking for some kind of real information, I either go to the government, you know, statistics, or I go to whatever the Wall Street Journal is doing or Barron's or, you know, any, any of those guys, because

the people, the traders are going to find out what's happening.

And so I thought, well, that's exactly what's going to happen eventually.

It's probably going to take a couple of decades to

shake out to where the people who are doing propaganda are recognized as such because people thirst for that kind of thing.

Because the press is the engine of our society, really, because things get stuck like they are right now in Congress because the press isn't doing its job.

I mean, we should have known.

I'm looking at Congress and I'm no expert or anything, but when you have people in my party who are in their 80s trying to represent a middle class that is in their 20s and 30s and they cannot figure out how to get housing going or make wages better or make people want to have kids, it's because the press is not covering.

They're hanging on every word of these people and not going into the community and saying, hey, what do you want?

And what's happening when you tell your representatives that this is what you want?

I am so happy to hear you say this.

I think we're the same age.

We probably disagree on politics on almost everything.

But

one of my main kicks is

You know, if we are the same age, you just miss the hippie era.

I just missed the hippie era.

Yes.

And the damn hippies have got to let go.

They've got to let go.

You had your time.

You did your thing.

It's not even, we don't even get the chance.

You know, we're the latchkey kids.

So we didn't get the chance.

It's past us because they wouldn't let go.

They've got to let go.

And we have got to protect the young generation coming up.

Yeah.

Turn it through.

It's their turn.

It's their turn.

That's exactly how I feel.

Yeah, me too.

I feel horrible that we did not get our opportunity because I think that we could have done a good job.

And people who are our age have great ideas and we know what we want, but it's almost the end of our time.

It is.

Because, you know, we don't, you know, I didn't work for a long time using social media or having to have side gigs and stuff like that.

I had a job that paid me enough so that I could buy a house and do all the things I wanted to do.

But the kids now, they have together world.

It's a completely different world.

Yes.

And it just shocks me that nobody can figure out that you cannot live on $60,000 a year anymore.

You can't buy a house.

You can't have a kid.

These are not hard problems to solve unless you're 80 and it's not important.

Let me,

you're singing my song.

Let me ask you

because

You didn't switch horses.

You just got off on horse.

You didn't switch horses.

But do you look now at the things that are coming out of the government on RussiaGate and see the same players and go, wait,

maybe there is something there?

Well, yeah, here's what I think about that.

There is no question

that

this was a storyline that was invented.

I'm not going to say that, you know, there was no wrongdoing and there was no, you know, improper contact or anything like that.

However, this was hyped to the point that it just became something that it absolutely isn't.

And I'll give you another example is the thing that's going on right now.

I'm in Texas with the redistricting issue.

And of course, Democrats are all upset about it.

But then you look, I lived in L.A.

for a long time.

The Republicans were nowhere as a bill.

I lived in Pasadena when the last Republican, James Rogan, was voted out of office so that Adam Schiff could come in.

So it is extremely difficult for a Republican to get elected there.

And that's on purpose.

It's hard for a Democrat to get elected here.

But here's the thing.

I live in a really little town.

I am the editor of the newspaper here, which is one of the most fun things that I've ever done.

But the...

problems that I am seeing here are so solvable.

We have a hospital that's about to go under because there's no money and they're doing strange things with Medicaid.

Our maternity hospital, or our maternal care just got canceled.

We were the only hospital in the whole county that had it.

So, if the Democrats would get off their butts and come down here and try to figure out how to solve these problems, nobody would be voting Republican.

But they don't care about those issues.

They spend all of their time trying to figure out how to make Ted Cruz look terrible or, you know, because he went on vacation.

I said this just, I think, today or yesterday.

I heard Betto talking about redistricting, and it was, so it must have been Monday,

at the same time Donald Trump was on TV talking about crime in D.C.

You can agree or disagree with what he's done in D.C.,

but which one of those, if it changes the lives of the people in Washington, which one of those says, I care about the people, and which one says, I care about power?

Whether it's true or not,

one is a clear message to the people

and it's

not a winning, you know, it's not a winning thing to say, and we're going to keep doing whatever we have to do for power.

It's not a winning message.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

I mean, I think both sides are exactly the same way.

I get press releases in my inbox every single day and they're not addressing the issues there fighting with each other and trying to make each other look bad, which is idiotic.

Because if we literally, if we could have like two regulations changed in Texas, we could have our maternity services back in our hospital.

If they would do something about health care, we could have a beautiful little rural hospital.

It's 100 and something years, 112 years old, that would continue to serve the people here.

And those are important issues, okay?

We don't care about plastic bags in Austin.

We care about that kind of stuff.

Okay.

We have a water plant that's 100 years old we sold bonds for it and after covet the price of everything went up so high that we could not afford it so we had to go back to the drawing board try to figure out what kind of technology we could use to um you know to get a water plant that was that would serve the people here so and you know and it's not like we need a ton of money we just need people to pay attention to us and the people here i will give them so much credit every almost every single one of them voted for donald trump or will vote for a republican They see the hypocrisy, and I think that they're extremely feel very betrayed by the Democrats who portray themselves as being for the common man while not paying, you know, they're siloed in these cities.

And that's, if you look at the map, it's like these little strongholds and they don't come out here, but they could easily convert these people if they would actually do their jobs.

I'm convinced all this is changing.

I don't know how.

I hope it doesn't have to get worse than this, but I think it's changing.

I know in me, at least,

I'm so done with the game of all of it.

You know, somebody said to me,

well, I'll tell you, it was Roger Ailes at Fox.

When I left Fox, he said, you know what your problem is?

And I said, no, sir, I don't.

And he said, you won't play the game.

And uh-huh.

And I...

What do you do when someone admits it?

I know.

I said, well, some of us don't believe it is a game.

We actually believe in something and it's not a game.

And then he just looked at me and I looked at him and I got up and walked out.

It is viewed as a game to too many people.

And

I think the American people are figuring all of that out.

I think they're figuring, I've been played for a long, long time and everything is coming undone.

And,

you know, hopefully without the without any bad things happening,

you know, revolution-wise, I think people are just going to say, enough is enough.

We just have to take care of business.

Too many things matter that are so easy to fix.

We're just fixing it.

Right, right.

Well, I mean, and it's not difficult, but they have to have a representative to vote for

who is going to do that.

So in the absence of that, they are voting for Donald Trump, who is deconstructing everything because they're sick of the system and they don't think that it works and there is no one that i've seen in the democratic party who is stepping up and going okay what do you people need you know because honestly if they would come out to some of these areas that are voting so heavily for republicans and just fix some of this stuff these places would be little oases you know we have a town here it doesn't get clean yeah i mean we have broadband we have everything you could come out here the cost of living is low but there is nobody who cares about that enough to fix it.

And that, and the press is absolutely enraptured by these stupid fights about who went on vacation and, you know, who's, who's evil and who's not.

You know, it's, I mean, I remember the whole argument about, oh, you can't write about,

you know, somebody who's not just like you because you're appropriating.

And I said, how in the world are we supposed to do our jobs?

You know, I'm a 61-year-old white woman.

You mean I can't write a book about somebody who's, you know, a different race or gender than me?

It just, the conversation got so idiotic that I think that the American people just said, let's just blow this up and start over.

I think if we live next door to each other, you and I would be fast friends.

Even though we don't vote the same way, I think we would be good friends.

One last question.

How many of the people that were involved in putting these guys in jail,

how many of these people have gone to jail themselves, been fired?

How many of them are still in government?

They're all there.

Well, some of the prosecutors who are involved in this case have left the DOJ.

But they weren't prosecuted.

They weren't punished.

No, absolutely not.

And the judge in the case, who is older than dirt and should have retired a long time ago, is still hearing cases, Judge Royce Lamberth.

And there's a big part in the book about that where I was investigating him and found that there was a scholarly or an academic paper written by a George Washington law school professor about him several years before the Raven 2.3 case even happened, where he was making the argument that this man is the poster child for why there should not be lifetime tenure for just judges.

I mean, the story that he tells in this academic paper is just outrageous, the amount of money that this guy wasted.

And it just doesn't even seem like he cares about, you know,

he goes in, picks a winner, and then just decides that it's like a personal game for him.

So that, that's the kind of stuff that people are seeing and going, this isn't working.

I hope so.

Gina, thank you.

What a pleasure to have you on.

What an honor

to talk to somebody who has

who is open-minded enough just to continue to follow the truth no matter where it takes them.

Thank you.

Thank you.

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