Ep 257 | Undercover FBI Agent Battled a DEMONIC Underworld | Scott Payne | The Glenn Beck Podcast

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How worried should we be about white supremacy in America?

My next guest is a retired FBI special agent who earned the title Hillbilly Donnie Brasco for his years of undercover work.

He has

buckle up for this.

He has infiltrated the outlaws, joined the Klan, got an up-close look at the new strain of white supremacy, recruiting young American people.

Story of murder plots, drugs, demons, pagan animal sacrifices, a story of him in the basement that you'll never forget.

But he's telling now a story

from somebody who is undercover from the FBI when less Americans trust our FBI.

So it begs the question: who is still looking out for you?

You're going to be riveted.

Scott Payne.

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In reading your book, I don't know how you're not schizophrenic.

I mean, honestly, I don't know how, how did you,

how did you balance the two worlds?

In the beginning, not very well.

You know, if you're doing, like, I started at a street level, we call it street level.

So you're doing street level buys, you roll up, you make a buy.

You know, you're not deep undercover necessarily.

But once I got in the FBI and then you're doing deep cover for long times, long periods of time,

yeah.

I,

the balance for me

where I messed up, really, it wasn't like a lot of people think, hey, you're acting, I'm pretending to be somebody I'm not.

Yeah, I'm not a criminal, right?

You know, of course, I'm not a white supremacist or, you know,

a super violent person, you know, committing crimes, but

I'm still me.

I'm still Scott.

You know, I'm uh, yeah, but I mean, I was fascinated

when you said

the friendships are real.

Yeah.

I just betray them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And,

you know, there are times when,

you know,

one of the guys, you know, cried and said, I love you, man.

And

that has to.

That would hurt.

It had to.

Yeah, that would hurt.

Tell that story.

So I did a

two-year case inside the Outlaws

Motorcycle Club.

That's one of the big four One Percenter clubs.

You got Hells Angels, Outlaws, probably Banditos, and then somebody else after that.

Explain One Percenters.

Oh, sorry.

One Percenter, for the listeners or viewers.

One Percenter comes, it came out around 1960.

It was during the Vietnam

War, but a lot of veterans were coming back and they were creating these biker clubs.

And the president of the American Motorcycle Association came out and blasted this media thing, you know, marketing that said, hey, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens.

It's only 1% that's bad.

And they took that as a badge of honor.

And that's why you see those clubs, you'll see a diamond patch with the 1%er in it.

But I've recently

made the correlation that was kind of crazy to me because I did enjoy that lifestyle.

I am a biker.

But in law enforcement, it's 1% of law enforcement that does undercover work, like deep undercover work.

So

I guess I'm a 1%er in some point.

So you're in the 1%

club.

And what are you there to do?

Well, the case starts usually.

On the long-term cases, like the case team's already been working it.

I'm not up there.

I wasn't in Boston.

I was assigned to San antonio division at that time um but the case team works it they get to the point to where they can actually maybe try to introduce an undercover and then we come in and we come up with a game plan and try to do that they had a lot of evidence and and um uh through law enforcement activity that crimes were being committed but is it enough to get a federal charge is you know how do you know what they're

what they're really doing deep within?

And undercover can give you that

if it's a success.

And ours was.

So I went in there for two years developing relationships and getting evidence of criminal activity.

It started with them.

It started with like

insurance fraud.

Like they would report their car stolen and they would get their money from the insurance company, but I would buy the car or vehicle, truck, motorcycle from them at a stolen price.

And then they believed I was taking them to.

Mexico because

I was based out of Macaulay in Texas.

And then that starts with that.

And the next thing you know, you start gaining more trust.

You start becoming,

you get more scrutinized as the circles open up.

And

then they carjack somebody and they call me and they're like, man, we need to get rid of this car.

It is hot.

We just took it from somebody at gunpoint, blah, blah, blah.

Then they start talking about home invasions.

And then you're picking up some stuff on extortion.

And there's always dope deals.

And

that's, we were building that case.

You kind of go where the case takes you.

But back to your original question,

you do develop friendships.

Now, don't get me wrong.

On some cases, I mean, like, am I really, can I really bond with a violent white supremacist?

Yeah, yeah.

No, I mean, I can try to find something to talk about.

But

on some cases, and especially that one, you can develop some pretty close relationships.

And I did over that two-year period.

Is it

I

and maybe I'm just really naive, but

I meet people who are supposedly

horrendous one way or another.

And I can

I feel as though I can see who they actually are, not who they were born to be, who they really are, you know, without all the crap of their life.

Is that what you bond with?

Do you see that

good things in really bad people?

Sometimes, absolutely.

I mean, I'm a human.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, yeah, you can look a lot of times.

It's not every case, but there's been numerous times where I've looked and me looking at it through my eyes.

I'm going, well, that could have been me.

They grew up in this environment.

Something happened here and they chose this way when at that proverbial fork in the road, I chose this way, but that could have easily been me.

How many of these people do you meet?

And And they're just like

evil to the core.

A lot.

Yeah.

I mean.

So how do you deal with that?

How do you stay in a room?

I watch these movies, you know, I watch movies of people who are undercover, you know, even like, you know, vision impossible.

And I'm a peripheral character going, I could never do that.

I would freak out of my mind.

How do you,

how do you stay in a room full of just what you know is evil?

How does that happen?

What do you

do to turn off?

Well, that's a good question.

You're asking me and what's popping into my head is I'm just in work mode.

You know, I mean, I know I've got a job to do.

I know I'm there, but

essentially the job is to find out.

I mean, we're being proactive most of the time in these cases.

You're not reactive.

You're being proactive.

You've got reporting possibly of some bad things happening, but let's just take the white supremacy stuff and that kind of rhetoric under the First Amendment freedom of speech protection, right?

So you go in there and maybe after five months you find out they're not doing anything illegal.

So I'm kind of in work mode, but don't get me wrong.

I mean, when I'm sitting across the table from a pedophile who's hiring me to kill the kid that he molested,

I have to, I mean, I have to, maybe that is acting right there.

Maybe because

we don't say it's acting and we don't call it an acting school.

I'm using what I know about me.

And I'm just

personifying that.

But yeah, when you're sitting across from a, even as a, even as an agent, not just as an undercover, but even as a case agent, and you're working those types of cases and you're seeing the horrific things.

And there's a lot of people out there that just don't know how evil the world can be or is.

Yeah.

And I get it.

I mean, maybe their brain doesn't let them deal with that.

I got family members that can't deal with it.

You know, you see something and they're like, oh my gosh, how can something like that happen?

And I'm like, well, you don't even know the half of it.

But I am an optimist and I'm a glasses half-full guy and my faith has carried me through a lot of things.

What is the role of faith?

I mean, because I, and I was so glad to see this in your book, you make a big deal out of faith.

And

I haven't really seen that covered on other podcasts with you.

And I think, I think that's so critical here because you, I mean, I want to later go into what the dark side of the stuff that you have seen that is, you know,

on the horizon with the kind of the new brand of really bad people.

But tell me about faith.

Tell me about your faith.

When you were young, how'd you grow up?

What happened?

So I grew up in a Christian home.

It was more Southern Baptist when I grew up.

It was the hellfire and brimstone, you know, don't do this, don't do that.

And then

usually that's the person you find doing it anyway, which is, I'm like,

that's human stuff, right?

I'm like,

you know, you're on the front line now.

I'm like,

yeah, I didn't want it till you told me I couldn't have it, you know.

But I grew up that way, and it was just what I was, the way I was raised by my parents and the love and my whole family.

I mean, both of my grandfathers were pastors.

Wow.

And

I saw it.

Did I see?

I'm pretty sure I saw my mom's dad preach a few times.

But he would get a shout out on the Gaithers, you know, they talk about being at a tent revival in South Carolina.

And they're like, ah, that's my grandpa.

Wow.

But that's what I grew up around.

Does that mean I stayed that way?

Absolutely not.

Because you had a brush with darkness.

Oh, big time.

Yeah.

My first seven years of school was at a Christian school.

My parents were doing well enough to put me in a private school,

which had its own issues.

When I went to public school in eighth grade, you know, I was like,

let's just say peer pressure was a new thing for me.

You know, it's wrong to do it, but if somebody calls you a chicken, you're like, well, I'm not a chicken.

I mean,

you know what I mean?

I mean, I know I'm going to get expelled if I do this, but

I might be a lot of things, but I'm not a chicken.

I think I learned a lesson.

I think it was in Back to the Future 2 or 3.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The chicken thing.

So in my teenage years, I did, and I put this in the book.

I went through a little spell of,

it started with like witchcraft stuff, and then it led into like you were in.

Yeah, yeah.

like a friend i always just go air quotes my friend introduced me um and it starts kind of innocent and stupid but i ended up just going into full-blown satan worshiping you know wanting to sign a contract in blood and all this crazy stuff i watched um every horror movie from a to z that was out you know at the when you could go rent movies yeah yeah on a vcr tape um

and i was just in a real dark place i didn't realize at the time of course i didn't i was a teenager But when you get older and you look back, I'm like, oh, man,

my parents had gotten divorced.

And that, you know, that, hey, are you okay with this?

Because I'd never seen my parents argue at all, but that last year.

That last year, they argued non-stop.

And then they got a divorce.

They got separated and then they got a divorce.

And looking back, I could see that, you know, it's like, hey, are you okay with this?

Yeah, I don't care.

Yeah, I don't care.

I was probably saying something else

a little more vulgar in my mind, you know?

I don't, you know, but that went in everything I did.

I started, and that's kind of like, I don't care.

And it kind of goes, it doesn't kind of go, it goes with, if you look at gangs, cults,

extremism, whether it's far left, far right, radical jihad, they kind of, you'll see this thing where they're grabbing somebody who has a need to belong,

wants to fit in.

Maybe even as a young man, you want power.

Yeah.

And you, you, that's kind of, that's that slippery slope that led me down that path.

And then as I tell the story in the book, I'm still unbelievable friends with my core high school group.

And the only thing we can chalk it up to is that it's everything we went through growing up that kind of made us keep this bond.

But one of my buddies was there.

We were drinking one night, and I'd gone to this full-fledged deal where I'm just talking in demon voices.

I was losing friends.

I was just, it was just evil, man.

I would like, I had a Volkswagen, oddly enough, for my first vehicle.

They do have good headrooms.

You don't seem like the Volkswagen.

Beetle?

Yeah.

Yeah, you don't seem like the Beetle.

Did you have the little flower in the

1971, I think?

So, yeah.

But it's solid white with chrome rims.

Yeah, you know, it doesn't matter what the body looks like, as long as you got good tires on it.

But

the place that worked on the car was a Christian workshop.

And I would set the tape,

say the band's Grim Reaper, and then somewhere in there in that 80s satanic, you know, pentagram stuff, there'll be some demonic speak.

And I would set the cassette to where when they crank the car, it would just be blaring because you could do that back then.

And it would be blaring that stuff.

It's just evil.

It's just, I mean, I was just being, I was not cool.

And I was shooting everything in my backyard.

I wasn't, I, it,

it wasn't good.

And

one night I'd started doing these like skits, if you want to call them that.

But I would like, I was acting out a scene that I'd seen in the movie where it's a demonic possession.

And you were with people?

Yeah, we'd had a party and we were at somebody's house.

I don't remember the name.

I could see the guy.

I can't remember his name.

I didn't drive there that night.

So just alcohol, no psychedelics, nothing to hallucinator, nothing like that.

And

I was doing

the thing.

We were in the same room.

It was my buddy and his girlfriend and I was on the couch.

Nothing nefarious happened to everybody, at least I didn't think it was, you know, everybody's passing out, but I'm doing this scene in my head where

that I've seen in the movie and you talk like yourself and you're screaming no, no, no.

And then you laugh like the demon and you just talk like that.

And I was going back and forth doing this, I don't know, play, if you will.

And it ends with the demon winning and the demon taking over your body.

And I was facing the back of the couch.

And when I rolled over, laughing like the demon or the satanic whatever possession, when I rolled over, what I saw was all red, like a watery image.

And it was a demon looking at me, smiling with its crooked finger and nails and looking at me and giving me the come here.

And I screamed.

I laugh now because I'm 54, but I screamed probably the highest I've ever screamed.

And from just me reaching, like sitting up on the couch and reaching for the light switch, I was as white as a sheet.

I was panting, pouring sweat.

Of course, my buddy jumps up like, what the heck is going on, you know?

And I looked at him and I said, man, if I ever do that again, if I ever use that voice or even do this again, you got my permission to take a baseball bat and crack me over the skull with it.

or something to that effect.

He got completely calm, Glenn.

It was like the spirit just entered the room.

He just, everything just went, whoa, and he looked at me.

And I don't even know if he remembers saying it, because I think it was the spirit.

He looked at me and he leaned in as if he knew what I'd seen.

And he said, I told you, didn't I?

That was it.

I didn't sleep.

I walked to church.

I don't know how many miles it was.

It was a Saturday night.

And I walked to Edwards Road Baptist Church in Greenville, South Carolina.

And I think I sat through every service.

I would have too.

That was it.

That was it for the demonic stuff for me.

What did he mean by, I told you?

I think early on, he had said, like, man, you need to stop that crap.

You know, you're scared of it.

So he was not part of.

No.

Oh, no.

He was just a friend.

He was one of the friends I was losing because I was going into such a dark place.

And then, you know, throughout my life, have I seen

demonic stuff?

Yeah.

Have I seen, have I like, have I had to go to a

satanic concert festival for three days?

How do you do it?

Very transparently, it's because they had Jack Daniels there.

That's the only way I could.

As an alcoholic, I can appreciate it.

You know,

I'm like, it's at a bar, right?

And they're like, yeah.

And I go, do they serve whiskey?

And they go, yeah.

And I go, I think I can do it.

Because I don't know about walking in.

It's just a bunch.

For me, when you walk in, it's sad because it's a bunch of lost souls is what it is.

How many of those lost souls

actually know what they're dealing with?

Like, you didn't know what you were dealing with until it happened.

Yeah, I don't.

I would venture to say a bunch because they're probably just on it for the kick, or maybe they're saying they're atheists and they're doing it just to be funny, you know.

But you start scratching at the surface, I'm telling you right now.

In my belief system, there's definitely spiritual warfare and all kinds of stuff.

It's the only way to describe, I think,

what's happening because it's sweeping the entire world.

And it is, it's either deep mental illness or it's possession of some sort.

There is,

you know, I have friends who are atheist who have said to me,

I don't know how to describe what I'm seeing other than evil.

And I know that's not an atheist word, and I know what it means, but I can't describe this any other way.

Yeah.

And that's what I try to tell people.

I put it in the book.

I'm sure it's been said before, but the best way for me to explain it, a lot of these interviews, I've been blessed on this book launch tour and stuff, and even the Rolling Stone magazine article back in 2022.

But I just say, look, you just need to understand that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people.

And it's been that way pretty much since the beginning of time.

If you can't deal with that, that's cool.

But if we tell you, lock the door, lock the door.

You know, don't

like I think like a bad person.

It doesn't make me bad.

It's just I think like a bad person.

I'm like,

I was dating my wife before we were married, and we're out

in a great part of Nebraska.

And I was a narcotics officer at that point at the sheriff's office.

And you go to go to bed at night and they don't even, not only do they not lock the door, they don't even shut the door.

It's just the screen door.

And I'm like,

am I going to lock the door?

I've been there.

And they're like, oh, you don't have to worry about that around here.

I go, well, if I was a bad guy, this is where I'd come.

That's the first thing I say.

I go, this is where you see that murder show where some serial killer comes to town and three families are murdered and they don't find out for like two weeks.

I'm like, man, lock the door.

It's crime.

There's also crimes of opportunity.

Like, like you walk by a car with the window down and it's got a, back when there were CDs,

let's just say it's a CD or a D V D sitting on the seat and you're like, man, I've been wanting to see that movie.

You're not, I've never thought about thieving, but this person's dumb enough to leave their window down and leave it sitting right here.

I'm going to teach them a lesson.

I'm going to take this thing.

That's a crown of my opportunity.

So a lot of these things as I've been talking about since kind of going out, I just,

because I meet people that are way left of where I live.

I meet people that are way right of where I live.

And I'm like, look, if we just put it on the table, just

let's put everything on the table.

First of all, we need to be able to have a conversation.

You can't keep cutting me off.

Let's have a conversation.

But let's look at it and say, the first question, is this good or is this evil?

Because most of the time you can break it down pretty quick, in my opinion.

You can see, this is not good.

This is a bad thing.

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So

talk to me about what did you call it?

Accelerationalism.

Let's start with the clan, your grandfather's clan.

The grandfather's grandfather's clan.

The white hoods and robes.

Right.

I infiltrated them too.

I actually played music.

I played music for the spring and fall rally for a Klan collection.

Is it harder to do this to be undercover now that the internet?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's got to be.

Yeah.

Wait a minute.

I just saw you.

And you play in the band for your church.

Yes.

Right.

And they just didn't film you above.

For a year and a half, because the case,

for that year and a half, the case I was doing was the the public corruption case and it was close to where I live so that's why that was off but they they they stream these things into prisons and stuff too you know so um that was another walk in faith for me I had to say look am I gonna let my job interfere I know it's not good operational security I know it's not the wisest thing to do but I've let my job interfere with me worshiping up until this point I would think you needed that and I yeah I needed it bad um that's why I've always laughed because it's volunteer based so sometimes I'm I'm there multiple, especially now that I'm semi-retired.

But, you know, even when I was working heavy, I'd, you know, maybe my wife or something be like, man, you've been putting in a lot of time at church.

I'm like, you can't get too much, Jesus.

I said, I'll take all I can get.

I just need a D-minus.

I want to get inside the gate.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

I just need to pass.

So you have, you're, you're with the old-style clan.

Yeah.

The hoods, the robes, the.

Yep.

Very historical.

I mean, it was, it was literally, it was a lot of, it was like a history class.

I I mean, I had to learn a lot.

How do you mean that?

I just, I mean, like, that's when you go in and you get naturalized as a Klan man.

Meaning what?

Well, I went through it.

I didn't know what was happening.

I'm like, what am I doing right now?

I'm blindfolded.

They're telling us to say this stuff.

And then at the end of it, I go, I think I just joined the Klan.

And then as I was walking across the field, I was like, we're rehearsing everything, replaying everything in my head.

I'm like, and I'm thinking about the legal is, I mean, the rules and the policies of the FBI.

And I'm going, should I die?

Okay.

this happened, this happened, this.

Yep, I just joined the Klan.

That's amazing.

It's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like as an alcoholic, again, an alcoholic, you ask yourself, am I an alcoholic?

And all alcoholics will say, if you're asking that question, the answer is most likely yes.

You find yourself asking, did I just join the Klan?

Most likely you did.

Yeah.

So I, uh, yeah, those were those were some pretty comical times.

But literally, you had to go to Klan craft class every week and like Facebook

craft class class like Facebook Messenger and it would be like you all the newbies would be in the group and like the leader of the group would be like they would throw because they've got all these insignias and

uh acronyms and it's like you know

like he'll he would type a y a k so you try to answer quick are you a klansman because that's what it stands for it's like good that's right you know um loadie L-O-T-I-E, Ladies of the Invisible Empire.

You had to know all these things.

Like, when was the first cross-sliding?

I don't think I remember that one.

I want to say like 1945, 1915.

No, no.

19

No, first cross lighting?

Yeah,

it was in Stone Mountain, Georgia.

I know that.

Really?

Yeah.

Because the Klan was around right after the Civil War.

But it was Stone Mountain, Georgia.

So it's somewhere in there.

What is the cross lighting?

That's when you see the cross on Facebook.

I know, but is that a gathering or is that just, you just put it in, you can put it in somebody's yard?

Sometimes they put it in somebody's yard, but the thing i got to see was um or be a part of was uh

and i remember the guy telling me because

so my sense of humor also carries me through a lot of things

right because i'm out in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere in the middle of alabama and this guy's like i'm like hey i see this like 20 30 foot metal cross and you wrap it in burlap and then they take steel wiring and hold the burlap on you soak it in diesel fuel and then you have to stand it up in the hole and that's when i learned that you call they call diesel fuel Clan Cologne because there's no way for you to stand that cross-up and not get it on you.

And then they go smoke cigarettes.

I'm like, I don't know.

I'm like,

I don't know how quick this thing will spark, but no, get away from me.

And you got like $500 worth of fireworks in your trunk, too.

I'm like, what are we doing?

But I remember

you get naturalized, you take those classes, and then you have to take a test.

You take a K-Uno test test to pass it, duo, trio, and then quad.

And the case kind of fell apart before I ever did anything.

But

I remember asking them, I was like, hey, are we going to have a cross burning tonight?

And the chaplain, which was the clud,

was like...

The clud.

That's whatever their chaplain is.

See, it's in the book.

You break it down.

But like I said, there's a lot of history.

I'm sure some of it is very skewed.

But you see, Abraham Lincoln said, I mean, it's all this stuff.

And it's the history of the Klan and the secret, the invisible empire.

But he said, now, Scott, it's not a cross burning.

That'd be sacrilegious.

It's a cross lighting.

And I went,

I'm like, but I'm standing there like, like, I don't know, like, and I don't, but I'm like all enthused.

I'm like, oh, okay, all right, all right.

And he goes, he goes, see.

A burning would be sacrilegious, but the lighting, it signifies the light of Jesus Christ coming down in the world and driving the darkness out.

And I'm going, in my mind, I'm laughing to myself because I'm thinking, you're a nut.

But I'm thinking, yeah, I've met so many white guys named Jesus.

You know,

that's the first thing I think.

I'm like, all right, I mean, whatever you got to tell yourself.

And by driving the darkness out, I'm assuming we're meaning non-whites, right?

It just gets, it gets kind of convoluted.

So you can go.

There's a long-term belief system in white supremacy that's called Christian identity.

Not to be confused with Christ followers of Christianity.

They take the story of the Garden of Eden and they twist the you-know-what out of it.

They say that

same kind of story, Adam and Eve, serpent, fruit of the forbidden tree, sin,

but they twist it to this.

And

it's called the

dual seed theory

and then a dual seed line, I think.

But this is the way it goes.

They say that the actual forbidden act was Eve having sex with the serpent, aka Satan, aka a man of color.

You got to follow me because it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

I've read the Bible.

I've not seen that in any Bible, but apparently they read it differently.

So they say that

Eve, the fruit of the forbidden tree, was a sexual act with the serpent, Satan, a man of color.

And from that intercourse, Cain was born.

And that is what they call the mud race all the way down, which is non-white and then they say but the procreation between Adam and Eve is able and that's the pure white race that's why it's a dual seed line and it's that I mean but you can take paganism I've got friends that are devout pagans that are some of the most peaceful loving people I've ever met it's not my belief system right um but

I respect them And now you see a lot of that coming into the white supremacy and extremism realm.

They're using, because Hitler did, you know, that neo-Nazi.

i mean you see the norse mythology and stuff like that and uh and i mean it's i mean if you think about it from a young man what's cool standpoint viking i mean i got vikings all over my arm

that's cool right yeah um

for them anyway but they would take christian identity and twist it and that was the reverend butler red ray fair and the uh area nations up in idaho that was all that stuff and then it's trickled on down then you get hang on just a second just a personal note i live part of the year in southern Idaho.

Is there still really bad up in northern Idaho?

No, no, I've got friends.

No, I've got friends in northern Idaho now.

I know, but your friends are sketchy.

We've already established that.

This guy's not sketchy.

Former SWAT team leader, former FBI agent.

Not sketchy.

All right.

And he says, he goes, yeah, we get a bad rap up here because of that compound stuff way back when, but they got, I mean, the government seized all that.

And they went down and they're dead now.

But so that's Christian identity.

So you see that.

And then through neo-Nazi, you know, you might see like there was a phase there where

you have like 80s, 90s, maybe early 2000s.

You've got your skin heads and all this stuff.

And that stuff's still around.

But then you saw a shift to like the clean-cut white guy who was a neo-Nazi.

like Richard Spencer and these other ones that would go out there and speak.

And their idea was the entryism belief is to infiltrate the the government left and right if you infiltrate the left bring it down from within if you infiltrate the right twist things more towards white supremacy which i don't understand there's not a lot of afterthought for a lot of these belief systems i know i'm like okay so you take over as let's just say you're a mayor and you open a restaurants that's whites only you don't think people are going to notice that i don't i don't understand where this whole ethno state ends right is the ethno state we hang out at this one restaurant right i don't know what you mean um but like again going back to your extremism beliefs, some radical jihad that's like, hey, they're going to get a caliphate.

Everybody kind of wants their own peace.

So then you get to what you ask about accelerationism.

In the 80s, there was a group that was there.

They kind of had the belief system,

but it wasn't called accelerationism.

And we started seeing this stuff coming up.

And I ended up going and being the undercover on one of the cases against a group called the base.

And I learned going in and infiltrating, this is where I learned the belief system.

And the belief system is this.

They call it siege culture because there's a book out there called Siege that was written by James Mason, longtime white supremacist, created the Adam Waffen white supremacy group.

But he's got a book.

It's a lot of interviews, idolizes Charles Manson, things like that.

I mean,

what a great role model, right?

If you're going to pick somebody, you know, I'm saying that sarcastically.

That would be sarcasm.

But

that kind of lays out this accelerationism view.

And the view is this.

They don't believe that there's a political solution that can save the white race.

They believe this society is going to collapse either on its own or from man-made events, and they want to accelerate it.

So they don't, like, you're not going to see,

you see the division in the country back and forth.

Hate begets hate.

I don't care whether you're left or right.

You do one thing hateful to this side.

They do something hateful back to you.

Hate begets hate.

But

when they see, they don't like any government, right?

They're not

Republican,

they don't like any government.

And you're not going to see an accelerationist out on the corner with picket signs marching up and down the street like a Charlottesville type thing or some protest, maybe like a KKK thing.

They're going to be hiding.

Because they want to do things like guerrilla warfare tactics.

They want to poison a water system, start killing lefty journalists

or anti-fascist.

I mean, some of these, I mean, it's in the book.

I mean, it's in the actual, it's in the court records if people don't believe it.

I mean, I've had to sit there with these guys talking about, I could say guys, I mean, 20-somethings, you know, maybe a 30-something,

but talking about when D-Day happens, which they refer to as the Boogaloo, that if their father

did not agree to be fascist, if you didn't follow fascists, that automatically made you anti-fash.

And once the boogaloo hits, the penalty is death.

And they're sitting there telling me, sometimes crying, saying, I'm going to have to, I may have to very well, I'm very willing to have to put a bullet in the back of my father's head, but I'll do it if he doesn't come to fascism.

Now, are they willing to follow through with it?

I don't have a crystal ball.

Are you doing overt acts in furtherance of doing it?

Well, that's how we built the case.

It wasn't against the parents, but it was against

who they believed believed were

an Antifa couple, and they wanted to murder everybody in the house as our first hit, murder everybody in the house, burn the whole house, murder everything in the house living.

One guy even said, man, I don't have, because somebody says, hey, do we know if they got any kids?

He said, I don't have a problem killing a comedy kid.

Like, okay.

What about pets?

No.

So are you just talking or are you going to do it?

Well,

you buy catch bags to put on your ARs.

So if you do have to shoot it, even though it's going to be super loud, it'll catch the brass.

So you don't leave anything for law enforcement.

You've got a pistol with a silencer on it.

They've talked about all kinds of things to prepare for this night of murder.

Leave all your electronics in one spot.

Go to a pay-by-the-hour motel.

Scrub yourself of all dead skin.

Put Vaseline on your facial hair.

We're going to wear balaclavas, cover our whole body,

tape your sleeve to your gloves so nothing comes out.

Same thing as your boots and your ankle.

The guy leading the whole thing even came up.

He did research and said that he had saw or read that

sometimes when people murder somebody for the first time, they lose control of their Bible.

So he was suggesting we all wear depends.

So,

and then you still have a parent who says,

you made my boy do that.

And they were just going through a phase.

They were just talking stupid.

I'm like, hey, I was just as shocked when your son told me that we were going to kill people as anybody else.

I thought we were going to put up flyers and posters.

So I want to come back to what you just said about, you know, the

acceleration.

But let me go to there.

I used to trust the FBI.

I always trusted the FBI.

FBI was a friend.

I trusted cops.

I trusted the government.

I trusted our Secret Service.

I trusted our CIA.

I trusted everybody.

Because

you know, like after 9-11, we all stood, we all wept, we all looked and said, my gosh, I love my country.

And then something happened to us in the last 25 years.

And I'm like, wait, wait, wait,

wait, we don't all love our country.

We don't all hold these truths to be self-evident anymore.

And I don't know what to believe.

I really don't.

I mean, my son,

my son was being groomed by somebody he was playing a game with online.

Okay.

And we would have a lot by the way.

Yeah, no.

We would have lost him if the guy didn't call once at two o'clock in the morning and then hang up the phone.

And we had multiple lines and I could see that the line went back on.

And I'm like, one of my children or somebody is in the house that's using our phone.

I went up and he was talking to a guy and he was talking to this guy.

And they were just talking about games, Dad.

And he wanted to meet.

And I was like,

We called the FBI, the FBI came in, they took the gaming thing and said, We can,

we'll handle this.

And they did, and it was fantastic.

They sent it to be your son.

Yeah, yeah, and it was fantastic.

Um,

but now you look and go,

Is the FBI, and I'm, I'm asking you this question:

Is the FBI good?

Is the FBI bad?

Is this

like the Whitmer case?

I was on the outskirts of that case.

Were you?

So tell me, what happened?

I don't know.

I really don't, because I was on the outskirts.

I was another undercover that they were using to possibly bump

the guy that was making the bomb.

I can't remember his name right now, but he doesn't need any publicity anyway.

What do you mean, bump?

Like, I was going to be introduced to him because what you saw was the main undercover going on, right?

And I don't know.

i really don't have any idea i know the two guys that that that did it um

and i i don't know what happened up there at that first trial because i from what i understood they had great overt acts um i do remember the guy's name i won't say it

yeah i won't say it um but this guy like

they like the baltimore office i'd worked with them on the base case and they called me and said hey just in case it doesn't work on this avenue you know maybe try to talk to this guy because he likes to meet new people.

And he was the guy that

trying to get him.

Again, you're spewing a bunch of crazy stuff.

You're putting all these videos out there.

That falls within your First Amendment right.

But how do we know if you're really going to go forward with it or not?

You know?

And you get a lot of pushback and people that don't like law enforcement or have had bad bad experiences with law enforcement.

I've always had good experiences with law.

I've had bad ones.

I had bad ones before I became a cop.

I had bad ones when I was a cop.

I mean, look at you.

Well, I know, right?

Yeah, I know.

I'm not talking for looking like this.

There's a line of a former buddy I had.

I still love him to death, but he said, sometimes you forget what a piece of trash you look like.

It depends on where we're standing.

If we're at the biker bar, we're not.

But,

yeah,

the thing is, this, if you're not doing anything illegal, what are you worried about?

I've done many cases where I've gone in, even if I was running it as an agent or I was the undercover, and I'm in for five months.

Thousands and thousands of the most most hateful, vile,

anti-Jewish,

anti-African-American, white supremacist, but it's covered under the First Amendment and nobody's planning on doing anything.

They're just waiting for the day.

So there's nothing to charge.

So I got to pull chocks and back out.

Now, you ask about, is the FBI good?

Yes, I believe so in my heart of hearts, because I did work a lot.

I was a workaholic and I know my peers.

And are there some bad things?

Yeah, like

you see, something come out on the news on that Olympic

that the doctor or whatever molesting all the girls.

Apparently, he came or somebody came and brought that to the FBI.

And whoever got it, unfortunately, it was subjective, not objective.

And you got that person that day and they said, oh, there's nothing here.

I would have absolutely, even though that wasn't even the violations I worked, I would have walked that baby.

We'd have figured out something.

Because you know, it's not right.

We just got to figure out what charge to go with.

And if it's not at a federal level, well, let's go state.

But

it's like, for me, it's a lot like anything else in life.

One person or a group of bad actors, like the George Floyd thing,

atrocious.

I mean, I'm a defensive tactics instructor.

I was the lead tactical instructor, a firearms, active shooter, SWAT operator.

I'm like, what is your goal?

Is your goal to get that guy handcuffed and in the car?

Then why are we doing what?

What is, you know, and I, and it's tough because a lot of us don't want a Monday morning quarterback, but we can't make those mistakes again, you know?

And you see that and now all cops are bad.

And I'm like, no, no, they're not.

I mean, does New Orleans have a history of Kareva?

Yeah, you know, does the border?

Yeah, does the border?

Yeah.

I mean, you're making, when I was down, let's just say you're making 25 grand a year.

And then somebody says, a cartel member says, I'll give you 10 to 15 grand if you just turn your head for three minutes.

Let this car go through.

That's over half your salary.

You think there's a chance for corruption?

Meh.

Yeah.

You know?

So

do I think the FBI is bad?

No.

I've stayed very apolitical through the book and everything.

Do I think that the FBI needed some changing?

Yeah, I do, personally.

Absolutely.

And like you said, 9-11, what's sad is unfortunately it usually takes some catastrophic event for everybody to come together and swing the pendulum back towards better things and i hate that but it just seems like that's the way it works sometimes it just seems as though

there are more and more of these groups free palestine you know black lives matter the clan um

you know the neo-nazis

crazy people just all of these people who

you know do you know who alexander Alexander Dugan is?

You should read it.

You'd love this.

He is a guy, was

Putin's brain is what they called him.

Okay.

Yeah, you know him?

So he,

I mean, his symbol is the ancient symbol of anarchy.

Okay.

And he believes, and so do the Twelvers in

Iran.

They believe that they can hasten the return of the promised one.

He believes that we can hasten the correction of the world if we push the world into chaos.

And so they will work with anyone, anyone,

to bring chaos to the world.

If it's going to cause problems, oh, I'll work with you.

Absolutely.

Because they want to bring their

back?

Yeah,

they want the world to collapse.

Yep.

Sounds like accelerationists.

Right, because they think that they're going to be the ones,

I'll take care of that group after.

Let's get this done.

You know what I mean?

And there's so many of those.

And when I'm reading and I'm seeing accelerationists, that's what they are, isn't it?

Yeah, but theirs ends with an ethnostate, just like yours.

Well, but everybody ends, you know,

the Twelvers in Iran end with an Islamic state.

You know, Putin's guy ends with a Russian state.

I mean, they all have that.

I love how they all end with basically socialism and you get yourself for free.

Right.

And I did ask them one time because my sense of humor, again, being somewhat dark,

we were on a ruck and it's like five, five of us, I don't know.

And we stopped to rehydrate up on top of a mountain somewhere.

And I was saying, yeah, so we're neo-Nazis.

Yeah, okay.

Boogaloo, yeah, man, D-Day, yeah, we're going to take over, yeah, ethno state.

Because the base was already looking at property in the Appalachian Mountains, was looking at prop the

North Central was looking at property in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.

Pacific Northwest had land to create your own ethnostates.

Again, not a lot of forethought or afterthought.

I'm like, so what do we do if the cops come?

What do we do if the National Guard comes?

What do we do if the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and anybody else comes?

And it was just, and then I even asked one time, I'll go, so who's going to be Hitler?

And then it just kind of like,

you know, I'm like, well, they're going to be one.

Who's going to lead this thing?

You know, it's,

it's, it's, it's sad.

And, uh, but you talk about like foreign influence stuff.

Absolutely.

I mean, it's anything to create chaos.

And you're right.

Right.

And

if people,

if people don't believe that our adversaries, our enemies, going back to Cold War and before, right?

aren't trying to feed chaos, feed things to create chaos in the United States, you're living under a rock, man.

But the scary thing is,

is

we've lost a center of truth.

And God has to be put back in.

Absolutely.

Yeah, God has to be put back in.

And then the foundation of the country, which was based on God, needs to be put back in.

And we need to start putting people in jail that need to be put in jail.

I agree.

Just stop all of this crap.

You know what I mean?

But because we haven't done that for so long, you have all these groups.

And, you know, when you talk about the Ogaloo,

they'll figure that out when they get there.

They just want the collapse.

And

it's everywhere.

And I'm afraid regular people.

If you start to really become disenfranchised, you'd be like, you know what?

These guys are, even though you don't believe everything, at least least these guys are going to take care of it.

Yeah.

Wow, is that trouble?

Yeah.

And, you know, on a scale, like some people would be like, yeah, but it's only a one.

It's kind of like you hear somebody say, well, it only took over two apartment building buildings.

Two apartment buildings.

I'm like, well, one's enough.

You know?

And

I'll get on a little bit of a soapbox for law enforcement here.

It's very rare, especially when you're a uniformed cop, that you show up and everybody's happy.

Yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You're showing up when everybody's at their worst.

Yeah, usually.

Yeah.

It's not a Facebook.

Look at how happy I am right now.

Look how great my life is.

But it's you see things like that and you go, yeah, until something happens to you or something happens to your family.

And then you want to know.

I used to always say, before I retired, I only retired in 21, June of 21.

I used to say, look, man, don't hate me because I'm a law enforcement officer.

I'm here to serve and protect.

I took an oath.

My title is peace officer.

That's the way I should be acting.

It's not always that easy, especially when you get

there's a whole other tangent to go down, but the things that law enforcement sees

on a regular basis can be pretty horrific.

I would say the same thing to them that I said to you at the beginning.

How do you do it?

You're seeing the very same divorce.

How do you do it?

We're number one in suicide, first responders.

And I'll throw a military will net.

Military first responders.

And that's not just, that's medic, that's fire.

We're first in suicide.

We're first in divorce.

We're first in alcoholism, which you can throw pills and other stuff in there now.

And we're usually, if we're not first, we're pretty high in dying within five years after retiring because it's just such a pressure cooker.

But I used to always say, look, you know,

don't hate me.

I'm just enforcing the law.

If you don't like the law, then change the law.

Then that's my parameter, right?

I'm looking.

This is the law.

You broke the law.

And then we went through this phase where they were just picking and choosing what they wanted to charge.

It's like, oh, well, I disagree with that federal law.

So I think it's okay to break that one.

Well,

what kind of slippery slope is that?

Yeah.

You know, I'm like, and then you've got agencies strapped that can't even do their job, yet you want them to go out there and be on the front line and take a brick to the face.

It's tough.

It's tough.

But for me, I just, I think.

I love talking.

And I think everybody just needs to come to the table and be able to have a conversation.

I agree.

Like if if I took, I'd say it jokingly, but I'm like, if I took a white supremacist and let's just say it's a black separatist, because I've met a lot of people since I've retired, like through Eradicate Hate, Global Summit.

I'm talking about, they call them,

I hate to put a title, but it's like a former.

You're a former, like you're a former radical jihadist.

You're a former white spirit.

You're a former black separatist.

And we're all sitting down at a table and having a meal together because now they're with life after hate and stuff.

I don't know where I was going with it, but yeah,

I was headed somewhere, but oh well.

I love that when that happens.

Yeah, I know.

Let me take you to

how are these accelerationists attracting new people?

Oh, they're big on recruitment.

Recruitment.

You kind of hit on some of it in the gaming.

Like you said, your kid was being groomed.

Man, that happens all the time.

Parents need to be aware.

Look, I get not wanting to be a helicopter parent.

I don't agree with helicopter parenting personally, but...

Online, you have to.

You have to.

I mean, there's great applications out there like Bark, just like it sounds, B-A-R-K.

You can install that on your kid's phone, man.

I don't know how many thousands of people they got working it, but they got people working it.

It will notify you if there's suicidal talk, firearm talk, dope talk, sex talk, all that stuff.

And it'll also quiz you as a parent to, do you know what this means?

This is the current thing right now.

This is the current, when you see this emoji, do you know what that means?

How long has this been out?

I just, my kids, I mean, today, my daughter is graduating from high school.

I would have liked that.

Yeah.

I would have liked that.

Listen, I'm with you.

I found out from another law enforcement officer who had already done the research and development.

And he told me, he said, I'm like, dude, or like, like, I'm in the FBI office and I come in and I'm, I'm very

transparent.

And I'm talking to the guys and gals on the cyber squad about some things that I found on Snapchat when my daughters were younger.

And they're like, oh, yeah, Snapchat's a double for young kids.

And I'm like, well, see, that'd be nice for you to spread through this entire office.

Yeah.

Because I didn't know.

That'd have been good to know about three months ago, actually.

You jackwagged.

Right.

So, yeah, just putting it out there.

But gaming, huge recruitment is there, but all these dark web apps, like,

and maybe it's not even considered dark web, but Telegram, Gab,

Wire, Riot, Discord, all these things, they can be for good things.

But let me just let you know that there are people with nefarious plans going to those things to recruit.

And that's how I got in the base.

I went to Gab.

They were posting all kinds of stuff.

They would get, their channel would get closed down and they would change one thing and come back.

What is the base?

They said they were a

survivalist group

training for whatever.

And then you start, you see like save your race, join the base.

And then it would have an email at ProtonMail.

because that's not in the states, right?

So you can do that.

Anything that they believe is encrypted.

that and in a lot of people's mind, that means, okay, basically the feds can't subpoena this because it's in another country.

Right.

So and sometimes it's true.

You know, VK was the Russian Facebook for a long time.

I don't know if it still is because I'm not in the game anymore, but

you go on there and it'll be like, hey, here's a room, whites only.

Well, I wonder what you're going to find in there.

Right.

14 words, which is

this is all throughout white supremacy.

The 14 words coined by David Lane.

I don't have it memorized anymore, but basically securing

the future of the white race and our children.

So you start going in there and then you see like that, people go to a lot of work.

They'll put together these

videos where they're showing real things that happen

where, let's just say it's blacks attacking whites

or just brutal beatdowns and stuff.

And they show that stuff to get your hate going.

But if you go over to the black separatists, they're showing videos of white people doing bad things to African Americans or whatever.

And it's like, again, it's that whole, it's evil, it's hate.

It's the devil, man.

I mean, you walk over here and you're whispering this.

And a reasonable person would say, both of those are true.

Yes.

Let's not be a part of any of that.

Yeah.

And they're just, and they're, and, and they go to these great lengths to recruit.

In the base, uh, the rule for us was Every video we released for recruitment, the next video had to be better.

Had to get better every time.

So putting up flyers, doing videos, and you see a lot of young kids diving in here, you know, from all over the world.

I mean, we had members in the base from, because, I mean, you got a, you got a phone now, you got a smartphone,

and that shrinks the world.

And we had members from Australia, in Australia, South Africa, Canada, the UK, Germany, I think Norway.

And there's plenty more.

How dangerous do you think it is to where,

and I don't want to get you into politics, but the

in Europe,

they are importing all of, or, you know, allowing all of these people to come on, refugees, and they're, they're not listening to the people.

And I'm not talking white people.

I'm talking people who are any color, but that's their country, and they don't believe in this policy, and they feel their country is being overrun.

And nobody seems to be able to explain exactly how this is good for our country.

And I'm watching these farmers, you know, with the WEF thing,

where they're being told you can't farm that land, you can't use fertilizer.

And they're like, well, how are you going to eat?

And nobody seems to have a good answer.

And they're all going the same direction.

And I look at this as a ticking time bomb for two things.

One,

civil unrest, like nobody's business, and extremism.

When you back back people into a corner and nobody is making any sense, you'll go to the only person that's saying the things that you're thinking about this deep, not thinking that they're this deep on all of those things.

It's like being in prison.

Pretty sure I'm probably going to side with the white group because it's prison.

It's like, all right, right.

Right.

Because I mean, you're trying to survive at that point.

Are you, are you concerned about that?

I am, but again, I'm an optimist and the glass is half full guy.

If I wasn't, I don't know.

I'd probably jumped off a building a long time ago.

Sometimes if they push far enough, hopefully everybody wakes up.

Hopefully a catastrophic event, something horrific doesn't have to happen.

And they can wake up and go, wait a minute, we have gone too far.

There's humanitarian.

I get the humanitarian thing.

I worked the border for six and a half years.

I was with the president two weeks ago and he said, I know I'm the same play.

I said, look, if I'm living in Mexico and my town is overrun with drug lords, my kids have no chance of ever progressing.

I try to vote and they kill the guy I'm voting for.

And America doesn't care about their borders.

I am there in a heartbeat.

I'm taking my whole family.

I'm trying to get everybody to America.

I get it.

I 100% get it.

We have to have compassion and understand.

We also,

we don't want to be the Titanic without lifeboats.

We have have to have lifeboats.

How do you do it?

Maybe they can speed up the process.

I don't know.

I'm not an immigration guy.

I worked with them like crazy for years.

But

humanitarian side, man, I've seen a mother and a daughter get caught because I've apprehended a load.

Because when I was in McAllen, Texas for six and a half years, the bulk of that time,

I'll say it was the flavor of the month, but it was special interest alien smuggling.

So it was aliens, it was undocumented aliens coming into America from threat countries.

But it was very rare that you would find a pipeline, say Chinese triad from China all the way to New York City.

It would be you've got it, you've got multiple smuggling groups all on the

Mexico side, and they're bringing people in, and it might be 10 loads of just what they would call other than Mexican or Mexicans.

And then in that 11th load, you got nine Chinese or you got somebody from Yemen.

So you have to, it was very rare that you had this straight pipeline.

Um, but I've seen horrific things.

I mean, and I'mn't even working it every day.

Um, but like a mother and a daughter who came from somewhere way away, had to come on a ship, there's no telling.

I mean, I'm pretty sure I won't get into it, but there's been horrific things that they had to go through.

I know, or you see a girl that went through Guatemala

in a hidden compartment by the engine of a bus, no AC, in that heat for like 16 hours, and then through Mexico in a hidden compartment next to the bus engine for 16 to 18 hours.

And then you finally make it across the river and you get caught and they send them right back.

Or that mother and daughter, they flew them back.

And I'm like, but I've seen evil people because they were Mexican, they just kick them back across the river.

And I'm telling you, Glenn, well before we're even close to finishing processing everybody or even attempting to get paperwork done, I have a source calling me and going, Hey, they're back in the stash house.

And I'm like,

I'm still at the board patrol station.

And they're like, Yeah, they're back in the house.

They've already kicked them out.

They've already come back across the road.

That's the this is this is the problem, though.

I think all of our compassion is misplaced if we're not thinking about the compartment next to the engine in the bus.

Yeah, we, it,

by

first of all, by not being clear on what our rules are,

that person, wherever they are, thinks they have a chance to escape whatever horror they're in and get to America.

And then,

I mean, again, I would do the same thing.

It's a dilemma because you also know that, or at least I know, because I've worked it, when that opens up, you know that bad people are going to use that for their advantage.

That's what I mean.

And that's what happens.

All of the people along the way that are making all kinds of money and exploiting those people,

we don't seem to to care about the suffering that goes on because we're unclear and all of the bad guys we're empowering.

A lot of people don't know it.

They don't want to know it.

And depending on what your political stance is or what you're running for, some people, I mean, it's politics.

They want, you know,

they want the votes.

How much do these,

I don't know, Klan and everything else, how much do they have in common with what the drug cartels are really turning into?

Because the drug cartels seem to be...

It's different.

It's different because, like,

a lot of the white supremacy stuff I did, there wasn't really a lot of...

I mean, if it was drugs involved, it was because they were personally using Adderall

to help them shoot faster.

You want some pale horse?

I go, no, I'm good.

I got coffee.

I don't even know where you got that, man.

It's probably got fentanyl in it.

No, I'm not going to do Adderall.

I didn't see a lot of that.

That was more about the ideology and

getting your own ethnostate or like even the Klan changed from being white supremacists.

They go, we're not white supremacists anymore.

We're white separatists.

And I'm like,

because it sounds less about

me.

You can have it.

Or you're the politically correct.

You can have your town.

Look, on this other side of this ridge.

And those pine trees, you can have all black, whatever you want.

We just want our all-white right here.

And I think the words, it's in the book, but I forget the actual transcription.

It was like,

I mean, you don't see,

you don't see cats and dogs having sex.

We don't like race mixing.

And I'm like, that's makes

absolutely.

Okay.

So that's a cat and a dog.

These are two humans.

I'm like, I think if I see somebody with a giraffe having sex, I'm going to say no to that.

I'm like, you know,

I kind of see what you're saying there.

I don't see what you're saying.

You were at something

where uh me

yeah you were at something where they sacrificed a goat ah yes

that would not be they that would be us I was there and took part in it hmm

so we'll circle back on that paganism thing so a lot of your white supremacy groups that I've been in involved with at the end were fallen more towards paganism

But I say that loosely because just like how the white supremacy movement took Christianity and made Christian identity, Church of Jesus Christ Christian, all that twisted Garden of Eden stuff, and there's a whole bunch of other stuff too.

The white supremacy realm was taking paganism and twisting it, and it's not what it's supposed to be.

So this was the group the base, and it was Halloween hate camp 2019.

Yeah, Halloween.

Yeah, I mean, we didn't call it that camp.

Oh, yeah, I was going to say, I'd love to see the flyers in the school halls come to the Halloween hate camp.

Everybody's welcome.

I mean, almost everybody.

Not everybody.

I mean, not you.

Yeah, man, people.

But

we had probably like 12 or 13 members come from all over the United States.

And North Georgia was the cell, C-E-L-L.

I always spell it because I got a country accent.

The closest cell to me was in North Georgia.

It just ends up

luck, divine intervention, that that's one of of the people we were trying to find out about.

And this guy, Luke,

he went by the, he went, but for the most of the time, he went by TMB, the militant Buddhist.

Everybody has a moniker.

I was Pale Horse, which is the title of the book.

He lived on a hundred acre.

Can I stop for a second?

Yeah.

Why the pale horse?

Because of the pale horse and his death.

Yeah.

Well, the story goes like this.

I came in as white warrior, which was more of a boomer kind of

a thing.

But, of course, I'd argue back and I'd go, well, I'm sorry.

When I was in this movement and

I've been in it longer than you've probably been alive,

we wore it proudly.

Tattoos, all this stuff.

I just twisted it

to make it believable.

But

Pestilence was one of the main guys.

And I asked him, I said, because he was like, White Warrior is such a boomer name.

And I'm like, okay, all right.

First of all, I googled it.

I don't even fall within the boomer years, but whatever, you know, you little punk.

But I'm like, so where did you come up with pestilence?

And he said, well, it's one of the four horsemen.

It's,

you know, it's the plague.

And I'm like,

wow, that is really cooler than mine.

I was like,

now I do feel like a boomerang.

That was pretty, that's pretty good.

And then I said, I said, man, would you be offended if I took Pale Horse?

I said, because I've always been fascinated with, you know, death on a pale horse, the Grim Reaper, you know, you throw in the Metallica song, you know, the Four horseman.

Um, and he goes, Absolutely not, man.

Take it.

And that's how I became Pell Horse.

I was Pell Horse at Eater of Souls.

You had to have like an at thing under you.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you're back

with these people.

Now you're cool.

You're at the Halloween hate party with all the kids, all the cool kids.

All the cool kids, yeah.

With guns.

Yeah.

Great.

On Adderall.

Some happened to sleep in three days.

Good times.

Thank you.

Again.

Right.

Jack Daniels.

Yeah.

But

it was Halloween.

We were doing this, this probably be like four days of training.

Luke's dad has a hundred acres out there, and

it was gorgeous.

I mean, gorgeous land.

But unfortunately, not good things were happening on it.

But

we do like hand-to-hand combat training, some firearms training.

And then this wicked cold front comes in.

And I went to charge my phone, and I kind of dozed off for a bit.

I wake up to them pounding on my window.

Pell horse, pal horse, man, you're not going to believe it.

You got to get up.

I'm like, what's going on?

And they had went and stole a goat or a ram.

I still, I've talked to owners of both.

It had horns.

It's pretty big.

I don't know if it's a ram or a goat.

I still haven't figured it out.

I've even googled it and I'm like, I'm still,

I'm still lost.

I don't know.

But they called it a goat and a ram.

They did both.

But they stole this ram from not too far away.

Almost got caught doing it.

And you got a picture.

The base members, we all wore like fleck tarn camo because that's the German camouflage pattern.

What is the

fleck tarn?

It's just the style of camouflage.

So not that anybody wearing fleck tarn has got to be a white supremacist.

Well, that comes from Germany.

But it's a German addict, right?

Drink Eggermeister.

You'll figure that out.

They woke me up and I go over there and man, they've got this ram and it's crapping all over the bed of the truck.

And one of the dudes is like, because they got their balaclavas on

their battle rattle, which is their plate carriers, gun belt, all this stuff, and uh, all fleck tarned out.

And and I remember one of the members, Dima, he was like, He goes, Man, this thing's crapping all over.

He said, Worded it different, but he's like, Uh, this thing's crapping all over the place.

And I said, Well, man, I would be too if a bunch of big dudes with masks and just jerked me out of my backyard and threw me in the bathroom.

So, the guy that was going to be leading the blot, which is supposed to be the the

ceremony for paganism,

was a guy named Aizen.

And he was not necessarily like a Satru certified.

He was just twisting it.

But he was going to sacrifice the goat, Ram.

And he named it Gar because his middle name is Garfield after his grandfather Garfield.

And I'm like, we're naming the goat that we're going to sacrifice?

Okay, man.

And I remember walking up to him and I was like, hey,

is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat?

And he's like, you said that to me.

Yeah, I said.

And he's like, oh, don't let the goat hear you say that.

And I'm like,

oh, crap, it's too late.

I just had a conversation with him.

I'm pretty sure he's thinking other things right now, you know?

And

he said,

we've got to show this goat love.

We're going to be sacrificing this goat to Odin.

It's going to Valhalla to kick off the wild hunt.

Well, in

Norse mythology, the wild hunt is essentially Odin and some other gods going out and just destroying their enemies all through the night.

Rape pillage kind of stuff.

I don't think it was rape and pillage.

I think it was destroyed.

It's destroying them.

Yeah.

But I'm not a guru on it.

But

what do you know?

You don't know the difference between a goat and a ram.

I know, right?

It looks the same.

I'm not going to lie.

But

in his twisted version, the wild hunt after the sacrifice was going to be the kickoff of

the wild hunt to the base neo-Nazi accelerationist movement was going to be

us starting to cleanse the world of anti-fashion non-whites.

So

I went over to my listening device, one of my devices.

Won't say what it was, where it was for tradecraft, but I mean, heck, I could have picked up a phone and called somebody.

But I'm like, I tell the, because I know the case team's listening and they're covering me because I'm in the, I'm on this farm for four days, so I'm covered for four days.

And

I leaned in and I'm like, hey, man, I don't know if you guys heard basically, but I think we're getting ready to go sacrifice this animal.

And I'm running it through my mind.

I'm thinking as an undercover coordinator, a senior investigator, I'm thinking all the policies.

I'm like laws.

I'm like,

I can't come up with a reason in my head to not go and blow this whole thing.

I said, but if you guys don't want me to do this and you want me to shut it down or walk away, give me a sign.

And I sat there and I waited and I waited and I waited.

And I'm like this, leaning over the device and I'm like,

well, I guess I'm going down to the woods for this sacrifice then, you know, however I worded it.

And we went down in the woods and

Aizen said some things.

talking about the wild hunt and what the sacrifice was going to be.

And he had something similar to a machete and he went to come down on the back of its neck.

He was like, he was like, he's a pretty stocky kid.

He's, he's like

doing his practice swings and fun.

Somebody's like, just do it.

And we're all in a circle on our knees around the goat

and ram, whatever.

And I'm at the back of it.

I still don't know how I got at the back of it.

Wasn't the wisest thing, but that's what I mean.

So like musical chairs, that's the spot I got.

And he comes down full-fledged with the blade.

And I don't even think it broke a hair.

I don't know if the blade was dull or if the back strap of the ram was so thick, but it just went back

like that.

And I went, oh, man.

Somebody's like, hit it again.

Do it again.

And somebody's like, it's probably going to take more than one swing.

I guess he was picturing like a guillotine, like the head was going to come off.

And then somebody says, does anybody have a gun?

We weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there.

The one guy who was the least qualified to be handling a live firearm who hadn't slept in probably two or three days was the guy who had the gun.

And it even shocked Luke, DMA, because me and Luke were like, what?

And he was like, what are you doing?

And Luke took the gun from him, hands it, and it gets passed to Aizen.

Well, Aizen chambers around,

points towards the goat ram, the head, and then looks away.

We're all in a circle.

So the instructor in me comes out.

I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

What are you doing?

And he's like, what?

And I go, man, look at what you're shooting.

We're all in a circle

jack wagon you know i mean you know for odin and yeah

you know

i mean we're supposed to look because he told me we need to show this goat love this this goat is being blessed it needs to so he comes up he finally looks and puts it in pow you can hear it here on the recording

you hear it fall on the ground it kicks for minutes it's still shivering i'm like i don't know if it's dead or not i'm like man put another bullet in it and he's like,

he goes, well, I'm pretty sure it's dead.

And I go, you know, for the goat.

I mean, it needs to be

love.

Going to Odin.

That's in Valhalla.

Kind of.

It's still wiggling.

Finish it.

And then he finished it.

And then you think you're done and you're not.

They go and slice the throat of the goat, fill up a big cup with his blood.

And I'm holding a flashlight for Eisen.

Everybody's still on their knees.

And we're going, because we're in the middle of the woods.

It's pitch black, except for the torches.

And I'm shining the light and he brought acid.

So now he's tearing off acid

hits off the sheet and giving it to members.

Almost every member did it.

A couple of us didn't.

But

it gives them that and they chase it with the blood as part of the sacrifice.

So by the time the cup gets to me, the blood is all coagulating.

It's chunky.

It's like clotted.

It's like, like old, thick, egg yolky looking.

And I'm looking going, oh, man, I really don't want to drink this.

and I think it was Eisen that gave me an out he said you can just dip your finger and taste it it was getting I was like this thing is getting thick and I dipped my whole finger down the blood sucking my mouth sucked off sucked all the blood off and then they

cut the head of it off

threw its inards in the creek some members tried to cook it it's the game it's not made for eating

Not made for eating, Glenn.

That was the gamiest meat I've ever tasted in my entire life.

And then we carried the head around for like three more days.

And there's there was photos of us blasted all over BBC.

And because it turns out there was another member of the base that was not law enforcement, but was working for like either Southern Poverty Law Center or something like that.

And he had gotten the pictures and

we didn't know where it was coming from, but we eventually found out.

But that's why it was the next thing you know, it's all over the news and here we are and there I am in the picture with them.

You can't tell because we're all covered up because nobody wants to get doxxed.

That was the big thing with them is if you get doxxed, then you lose.

The far left was really good about showing up and protesting at your house, your kids' school,

and then you lose everything because everybody now knows you're a white supremacist.

Did you ever

did you struggle?

Because you are,

your faith is so important.

Did you ever struggle with, I'm not kneeling at this goat and this sacrifice and even letting this blood.

How did you deal with that?

I would say yes and no because I know my belief, I'm right with my Lord.

And I've talked to even pastors about it.

You know, I'm like, hey, I'm doing this, you know, because like my tattoos on this whole arm.

It's Viking warrior stuff, but for me, it's the armor of God.

I've got the shield.

I've got the boots.

I've got the belt.

I've got the helmet.

I've got it all in there.

And that's what it means to me.

And once I retired, I put the Ephesians verse on there.

But I'm in work mode.

And

I know that

somebody had to kick Satan out of heaven.

You know what I mean?

So

there was times

where I've crashed mentally, physically, and I had to really had to have a come to Jesus meeting and pray and figure out, am I ever going to be able to get back to where I was at?

What hit me after all these days of praying is that what I heard was the Lord saying back, son, you would have never been able to do what you did if it wasn't me for blessing you in the first place.

So I know that I've been blessed with that and

I'm doing that.

I'm not really worshiping.

Right, right, right.

Because there's a part in the, there's that same weekend, there's a part in the book I go into detail about where we do a bonfire two days after,

because the second day was completely blown because almost everybody did acid.

So there was no training.

Everybody was still high.

But

we had a bonfire

burning Bibles, burning American flags, death to America, F your Jewish God, everything you can picture being yelled was being yelled there.

How many people?

Like 13, maybe.

And it must have been so.

You just like, you just must at some point just go, this is, your people are pathetic.

You have 13 people in the woods.

Yeah.

You're pathetic.

Well, but they found the bond.

A lot of those guys have been bullied,

are outcasts.

Some of them are on the spectrum a little bit,

autism spectrum.

You've got

can't get a partner, and they sit in their bedroom all night on this phone and dive down rabbit holes of hate.

and find like-minded people who have been treated the same way.

So they've a a lot, I mean,

some of them can be fixed.

They've just been led down the wrong path.

But yeah, at that moment, a little crazy, a little crazy, but they're burning the Bibles.

And

I watched the flames go up.

It's even on the video, the propaganda video.

You see them open face, put it down in the fire.

And the fire goes up, it comes back down.

One of the members is stoking the coals.

And, you know, now he's trying to get the fire going again.

And a Bible flips over, opens up not a page burnt on it since on the edge and on the butt but pages he had to start tearing them out page by page get the fire going again and I'm thinking that was pretty odd you know but then the people talk science they're like well some of the Bibles the page is made out of clay it doesn't burn like whatever

I watched it burn an American flag

you know whatever

so

flames go up it's dying back down Guy starts stoking the coals again second Bible flips open unburnt I wish I could have seen what book it was.

That would have been cool.

But one of the members said,

man, these effing Bibles just won't burn.

And I did my little, I didn't do it.

In my head, I did it.

I did a little

Sammy Sosa down.

I look up, I go, that's pretty cool.

I get it.

You know, but yeah, it's tough.

I got to that weekend.

I got home.

I felt dirty.

I reached out to my pastor.

I said, said, mom, it needs you to pray over me a little bit, you know, and just get my head back in the game.

How'd your wife deal with all the time that you were gone, everything that you would go through, come back home?

If you talk to her, she says she just gave it up to God.

Because back in the outlaws case, that would have been like 2005 to 2007 or 8.

And

I didn't know.

That's where I said I thought I was doing pretty good and I wasn't.

But she would would be so nervous and worried that she would just move furniture all the time.

I'd come home, the house would be completely rearranged.

And she finally said, look, I got to give it up to God

because she can't control it.

And I'm like, if it's my time to go, it's my time to go, you know?

And I'm not going in lax and I've got a skill set and I think I'm good at, you know, what I do.

And I think I'm doing it for the right reasons.

But even

towards the end of my career, like the base case, uh we were sitting out and just talking and she's like

she said something about covering me and i was i kind of giggled because i'm like man we that was a narc when you met me you know i mean i was like i mean how we've been doing this for 20 something

years

um and she jerked a knot in my tail she said listen it's i'm your wife and it's my job to cover you and when you're out there on these undercovers i'm covering you in prayer and i man i i was like i am sorry i didn't mean to giggle thank you and uh

that means a lot.

So, yeah, it's not.

And she's not a my home in like a military home, you know, where you can disappear for six months and the family still stays together.

My mom would probably implode.

I don't know.

I'm not even sure if the house would be there when I came back.

You know, yeah, I know.

The

Operation Poetic Justice and Murder for Hire.

How often were you an assassin for hire?

Or played that role?

Yeah,

a bunch, actually.

I mean, I mentioned the one,

the pedophile, who

he knew that he wasn't going to do good in prison, and he had gotten locked up for

a purported molestation.

But while he was in San Antonio, the jail, Bear County,

he solicited somebody to

help him find a hitman to kill this kid because in his mind if the kid was dead no trial which is

on the scale of some of the murder for hires

that's not a that's not a bad plan um but uh yeah i i went in and i met him it was just two quick meets but i had to go sit in the sit in the phone room with all the stainless steel with baby mamas and everybody yelling and screaming and i'm trying to get a recording of this guy uh saying he wants to hire me to kill the kid.

And that was probably one of the quickest ones I've done, but one of the most satisfying cases.

Oh, I bet it was.

Yeah, I bet it was.

Can we just spend, I just only have a couple of minutes left, but I have to ask you, you, the guy

that trained you

is kind of the original badass,

Broscoe, right?

Yeah, Joe Pistone.

Yeah,

yeah.

Joe Pistone is still a friend.

He

graciously

did a blurb on the book.

Yeah, I mean, so in 1972, the FBI never worked undercover under Hoover.

And pretty much when Hoover went out the door in 1972, they picked 25 undercovers.

There's a black and white picture of the first ever undercovers in the FBI.

And they were like from Philly, New York.

Really?

New York.

Hoover didn't do it?

No, he didn't believe.

For whatever reason, he didn't believe in undercover.

He just believed in wiretap.

Yeah, I know.

That's weird.

But so back then, there was no attorney's general guidelines.

It's like, here's this recorder about this big, and here's a lot of money.

Let's go make a case.

So, yeah, Joe did six years in the mafia.

And that safeguard process that we all do now, or I'm retired, but if you're an active undercover, you have to be psychologically assessed.

It's mandatory.

And that program was built by Joe and

another FBI agent who was previously a psychologist.

And that's to take care of, make sure you're mentally stable, your family is very important because we're type A personalities.

We'll go out there and keep saying yes and keep saying yes.

I mean, I cover it in the book, there's

at least twice, might have just been two times, I was put on timeout.

They're like, you are not recommended, you are not going back on that undercover.

And I'm like, okay, you know.

What's the closest you've

come to

either

breaking the cover, blowing it, where is there a time when you've gone, oh,

crap?

Well, there's a bunch of,

there's a bunch of craps.

But as far as blowing my cover, just getting caught,

the biggest one's probably the outlaws case.

That's where they took me down.

After a year and a half undercover,

they

a year and a half undercover doing all those insurance things, carjackings, whatever, and some dope stuff.

We upped the ante

to do a big shipment of drugs so they could be introduced, because they've been asking, so they could be introduced to some cartel contacts.

Because what does a drug dealer want?

They want the highest purity product they can get for the lowest price they can get because then they can step on it

and make more money.

So imagine if you're in Massachusetts and you get a straight pipeline from Mexico, you're probably going to get some good stuff.

And we upped the ante.

ante.

And then at that year and a half point, they carried me down into the basement.

It's more like a crawl space of the clubhouse

and stripped me at gunpoint looking for a wire.

The problem was I was wired to the hilt.

And

they almost found it.

It was close.

It was close.

And what are you going to do?

I'm like, even if you think you're a tough person and you can fight, you're in a crawl space, basement, whatever.

I can't stand up straight.

I could probably touch the wall on both sides.

They've already shown me their pistols.

I'm not free to leave.

And even if I could get past those two guys without getting shot, you got everybody upstairs.

I got another probably 10 upstairs with the door locked, with a metal bar across it and everything else.

And it came close.

Like I had an oh crap moment, adrenaline dump.

Your auditory exclusion happens.

Your time dilation happens in your eyes.

Everything you see is in screen grabs.

Everything slows down.

Everything you hear is going whoosh, whoosh, real slow.

And what seems like an hour is probably a couple of minutes and um

i i took all my clothes off i wrote down my name and everything they wanted me to um i was panicking like crazy you can clearly hear that my voice does not sound like this my throat is a lot tighter my pitch is a lot higher um some of my diction is terrible because i'm talking through my nose because i'm freaking out and um

i thought i was done

and then clothesline who was supposed to be my buddy,

not the FBI undercover buddy, but you know, the Scott Calloway buddy.

He grabbed a piece of clothing, and that piece of clothing had some equipment in it.

And he starts kneading it with his fingers.

You know, he's like working it.

He cracked the joke.

He's like, hey, man, I'm not going to find anything in here.

I don't want to.

Like some naked pictures of my old lady.

And I'm like, I hope not.

But I'm watching him do this, and and I don't even know I do it.

You can hear me on the recording go,

because I mean, what am I going to do?

You know, and he looked right at it and missed it.

Wow.

By that much, by that much.

There's crazy.

There's crazy things like that because that's another, it goes back to my faith.

That night when I called my wife, I'd always called her,

especially during that case, I gave her like a covert phone, a burner phone i bought and set up so i could call her um from my undercover phone and i called her that night and the first thing she said is are you okay

and i was like yeah why she said man i was driving in mccallen with the girls which our girls were little at that time about like three and one and uh

She said, I just got this overwhelming feeling and I pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for you.

And that's when I was in the basement.

I looked at the time.

That's when I was in the basement.

So

yeah, that's freaky, freaky stuff.

But I mean, there's there's been other things where, like,

you know, somebody's got a double-barrel shotgun with both hammers cocked back like this on the table pointing at you, going, my brother, and his brother's right there.

My brother says you're a cop.

And you're looking at his brother going,

he's right, because I arrested him when I used to be a uniformed patrol.

You know, how do you get out of that?

Oh, did you?

I started counter accusing,

deny, counter accuse.

Because I didn't have near as much training back then.

That was when I was at the sheriff's office.

But, you know, you find yourself in this situation again with another case, Poetic Justice.

You brought it up.

Guy's got a shotgun, double barrel, hammer's cockback.

I should learn my lesson with those, I guess.

And he's like, he's already told me, if I find out you the law, you're a dead man.

You hear me?

If I find out you the law, you're a dead man.

And then

I did something to bolster my bona fetus, to bolster myself as looking like I know what I'm doing, like I'm really a criminal.

And

I overstepped my bounds.

I underestimated.

And he, it's a chess game.

He, he got me on that one.

The next thing I know, I'm.

Did you say what you did?

Yeah.

I told him that

I've been like, hey, man, that dope that I bought last time from his relative, it was weak.

And it was.

And any dealer or user is going to know.

And they're going to come back and be like, hey, what the hell was that?

You sell, you sold me, you know?

And I told him, I said, I said, that stuff was weak, man.

He goes, well, this isn't.

Try this.

And I was like, oh.

And next thing you know, I've got a red bone hound in my crotch.

And that thing was mean, mean.

I was like, you just didn't move.

You're just like, because it's going,

like touching you.

And you're like,

okay.

And then he's got the shotgun and then there's an open bag of cocaine in my face.

And he's like, just do it.

Just do it.

And I'm like, I'm talking and I'm like, man, I told you I don't do it.

I'm laying out everything that I think I could lay out

for me and my story.

And then I realized this is his test.

And I even said, I said, so this is your test.

This is it.

And I just did some real quick hand movement and I didn't ingest anything.

And

I was pissed.

I let him know I was pissed.

But as soon as that happened, you have to be able to see, is this situation deteriorating?

Clearly it was.

But as soon as I did that, he immediately,

everything was fine.

And he's like, hey, come to the back room.

Here's all the dope.

My relatives are a cop, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And

it was good to go after that.

But

I,

I shouldn't have let that happen.

You know, but again, that's a chess game.

You're trying to stay moves ahead while you're still connecting with people and gaining trust.

I have to tell you, I think I should have worn the pens just for this interview.

I would have peed my pants.

I don't know how many times if I were you, but I'm glad people like you are out there.

Thank you so much.

Well, thanks for having me.

And, you know, it's an honor.

I mean, again, it's a calling.

You don't do it for money.

Yeah, I know.

You don't do it for fame.

I mean, there are men and women out there that have done way more than I have undercover.

And,

you know, I've been blessed.

So I'm just trying to pay it forward.

Yeah.

You know, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

You print.

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