Ep 241 | People, Angels & Demons: Do They Walk Among Us? | The Glenn Beck Podcast

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I think it was the philosopher Madonna that said, we are living in a material world.

She was wrong.

We actually live in a spiritual world.

We live in the kind of world where the haunted house on the block gives us the heebie-jeebies, and you know, where

we like people because we get a good feeling.

There is no material explanation for that.

The only explanation is is that there is more to life that we can see, maybe entire dimensions of reality that we're oblivious to.

Do we live in a world with angels and demons?

And if we don't, why do we find the idea so fascinating?

Does it say something about us?

Today, I have an expert with me you are going to love.

He's a guy who has studied the hidden and almost magical world of symbolism.

He can explain why, whether it's in our fairy tales or our conspiracy theories.

I'm going to talk about all of them and what does it say about us.

But we always tell the same stories.

Welcome, renowned Christian artist, public intellectual, and the host of the symbolic world, Jonathan Pagot.

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Hi.

I said a few weeks ago that there's something going on with all of us.

You know, the Pizzagate people, they were wrong,

but they weren't wrong in some ways.

You know what I mean?

There's this collective,

this collective feeling that elites are raping our children.

And we don't have any evidence.

I don't know where this has come from,

but we now know it looks like that's true all over the world.

What is that?

What is that?

Well, a good way to understand it is, you know, that famous conspiracy theory about the lizard people is a good way to understand it.

And what happens is

people have an insight about our leadership.

And the insight is something like, our leaders are supposed to be there for us, but they're not.

They're there for something else.

And what it is that they want or what it is they're doing isn't clear.

They want something else.

They want power.

They see us as just something to feed upon, you know.

And so that gets structured in images.

And the image of the lizard person is a great image.

Like they look like humans but they're actually right some other thing i've said a million times and i i know they're not lizard people yeah but would you be surprised if they pulled off a mask it would make more sense yeah you know what i mean and so that's the way to think about it is you can see these types of crazy conspiracy theories pizza gate's another example where some of the details of the thing people are seeing are wrong and they're kind of crazy and over the top and you know they get into conspiracy minded like crazy conspiracy minded ideas but if you think of the people as like a tuning fork, you know, and they get a sense, they kind of start to vibrate and they start to sound an alarm.

Like there's something wrong.

There's something wrong about the way that our leaders are acting with us.

We have to listen.

We don't have to take all the details seriously.

Correct.

But usually they have the sense that they have is probably right.

And so we can look through the mythological images and realize that, you know, even if, you know, I don't believe in actual lizard people,

but the image image of the serpent, you know, in the garden.

We shouldn't be thinking about the serpent or the lizard.

We should be thinking about what is that saying?

Yeah, what is it saying about the moment in culture and the way in which we interact with our leaders?

And that's true about a lot of conspiracy theorists.

You can usually, if you take one step,

one step back and you look at it, you can kind of understand it.

I remember the conspiracy theory during COVID when they said 5G causes COVID, right?

You're like, well, whatever.

So you realize, no, actually, 5G doesn't cause COVID mechanically, but does 5G cause COVID?

Like, if we didn't have the connection that we had on the internet and we didn't have all this way of surveilling and

of staying in touch with like tracking everyone, would there have been the COVID reaction that there was?

And the answer is obviously no.

100 years ago, people would have died and we would have gone on with our life.

And so does 5G cause COVID?

Well, in a way, yes.

It's not a mechanical cause, but it is something that is like a meaning cause, right?

It's related.

And the people, like just the regular Joes,

they sense that, but they formulate it in all kinds of weird ways that are sticky.

And so I think that there are ways to look at cultural narratives that can help us understand what's happening if that's what we want.

If we want to understand what's happening in the world,

you know.

It's like we can look at these cultural narratives from one step removed and we can actually understand what's happening.

So what are the cultural narratives that you're seeing that you're like, like, oh.

Well, one of them is the

lizard people one is a good one to understand.

And it has to do with the fetishization of, or the obsession with that which is strange.

It's a good way of thinking about it, right?

So you have your world, right?

You have your story, you have your identity.

No matter which one it is, it doesn't matter.

You have your family.

And then there are elements that are strange, that don't belong.

And what's been happening now for the past since World War II, really, is we're obsessed with that question.

So on the one hand, we fetishize that which is strange.

So you have narratives like basically the idea that anything that's not my identity is better.

Right.

So we fetishize other cultures, we fetishize other things, or it's the opposite, or we kind of fall into this idea that we're in danger.

We're being invaded from without in all kinds of ways.

There are people with bad intentions that are trying to influence our children or that are trying to come in and take our jobs or whatever it is.

Both of of those, a step back, are absolutely true.

Right.

Right, okay.

Yeah.

And so both of those are showing a moment in culture that is worth noticing, which is that when any culture becomes obsessed with that which is outside, it signals something about who we are.

It signals something about how there's...

we're running out of our own, of ourselves.

We're running out of fuel.

We're on the edge of death, you could say.

So the end of a world has a shape.

It looks a certain way.

When the Roman Empire was close to its own,

you know, its own fall, the young people were obsessed with the barbarians.

They actually like, people would complain that they dressed like the barbarians.

They would wear pants and they would wear their hair like their enemy.

And so it's like, what does that mean?

And it signals that we're nearing some kind of crisis is a good way to think about it.

So

I've got so many questions on just that.

So let me start here.

When it

chicken and the egg yeah

what's happening first and how do we all connect that i mean i find it strange people are finding god you know they're questioning demons yeah now i i talk to atheists who say there's no other way to describe what's happening other than evil yeah and around the world we're all

protesting the same things our governments are doing.

This is global in its nature.

And that makes it feel

otherworldly.

It makes it feel like

that evil is an actual force.

And I don't think the average American, and especially European,

have been there in a long time.

Yeah.

Well, there's definitely something happening.

And like you said,

there's a phenomenon that's happening in every field simultaneously, which is materialism is running out.

The mechanical

explanations of things, the way that we describe things as basically billiard balls bumping into each other, is not sufficient.

And people are reaching that conclusion in science, in psychology, in all the different fields simultaneously.

It's the problem of complexity, it's the problem of emergence.

They have different ways of talking about it.

It's like, how do we account for how multiplicity becomes one?

Like, how can something be many things, like have parts, but then also be, you can see it as one thing?

And how does that work in terms of people, right?

So it's like, how is America one thing?

America is billions of, it's like millions and millions and millions of things.

But if I, if I may,

our, our whole country was built on e pluribus unum.

And our unum were the principles that built us.

That we don't, we don't share those anymore.

That's right.

And that's what I think people are noticing is that the way that people join together into one is not arbitrary.

There has to be something.

it has to be a principle or a principality, you can say it in different ways, that is overseeing or that is binding multiplicity together.

Explain a principality, interesting word.

Well, so principality is an is something like a principle, but a principle that's active.

It's acting on us.

And so a boss is a principality for all intents and purposes.

So you have a boss, you have a team, and the boss is trying to embody the purpose of the team, but he's doing it actively.

It's not just a passive principle that we all kind of follow.

It's like, if you don't follow this, there'll be punishment.

So then if you do, there'll be reward and all that stuff.

Beyond a boss, God

and Satan.

Satan, but also all kinds of principalities, right?

So that's why when you said the idea of demons, in some ways, we're at a point where the question or the possibility of angels and demons all of a sudden becomes prescient again, where I'm talking to cognitive psychologists and they use fancy words.

You know, they talk about,

you know, they talk about transpersonal agency, right?

What are we talking about?

What's a transpersonal agency?

It means that they're recognizing patterns of agency that are beyond the human person.

And they realize that when people act together in groups, that there's something binding them together and there's something making them work towards a single goal and that something like an angel, they won't use the word angel, but that's really what it is that they're slowly kind of pointing to and that there are some of these transpersonal agencies that spiral into chaos right they kind of spiral you down into breakdown they they capture you you know think about like kind of a street gang like a street gang has a type of transpersonal agency but it's devouring the people inside like it's basically just destroying them right so it's like well what's that Well, that's a demon.

That's what we used to call a demon.

And now people don't want to use that word, but it's in some ways becoming, it's, we're moving towards a position where it's becoming better to actually use these terms to understand.

And it's really to understand because what you want to do is to be able to see what's happening and to recognize what's going on when you have a

like a kind of intellectual fashion or some kind of idea that

like starts to capture people and push them in a direction.

That's a type of agency.

It wants something.

Okay, so wait,

let's just explain a couple of things.

Do you believe in evil as an entity?

I would say I believe that, I mean, I believe in the devil.

Yes, I do believe in the devil.

I believe that the evil, evil doesn't have its own existence.

It's a parasite.

That's the best way of understanding it.

It's like it takes something good and it twists it.

Correct.

But it does, it has its own.

It has a coherence to it.

It has a type of coherence.

And so when you're looking at things happening all around the world, I mean, I think we're seeing possession all the time.

You watch people on TV and sometimes they absolutely look possessed.

They act like possessed people.

And it's all part of this insanity that's going on.

What I want to know is: are you saying that this is a physical thing that you start getting wrapped up into this and then you just go down?

Or are you saying, no, no, no, this is

an outside force that is coming in and invading, and we're just ripe for the picking?

Yeah.

I think the best way to understand it is as, especially for a demon, the best way to understand it is as an outside force.

Because the reason why we think of it that way is because, let's say, the transpersonal agency, let's say, that's making you drink.

Let's say, like it doesn't want good for you.

It's bringing you on a path that's actually destroying you.

And so if you think about that like at a higher level in terms of a group, if you have a group that's engaging in absolutely self-destructive behavior, that cannot be, say, it cannot be an inner truth.

It's an outer truth.

It's something that has intentions that are from something else.

So you can imagine, like, we have to be careful.

We have to, I try to try to keep it as, let's say, grounded as possible, right?

So you have a foreign government.

That foreign government has interest in your government, let's say, falling apart.

So they would be willing to influence your people,

let's say, funding drug gangs or funding all kinds of things that will bring the breakdown of

your people.

And so you're like, well, that's a foreign influence.

And that's how to think about it.

You can think about it in terms of, let's say, another government, but sometimes there's also something happening even at higher levels where you have beings that have other intentions that are affecting us and bringing us towards our own destruction.

Usually it has to do with,

let's say,

just gaining power for that being, right?

It's like anger, let's say, in a person.

It's like if you give in to the sin of anger, it's like anger wants to be primordial, right?

It wants to rule you.

It wants to take over all your energies.

You know, it's gambling or you can think of all the things that take over people, but that happens in societies too.

So, I mean, we've seen like this rainbow stuff, like that's part of like

it's completely coherent and it wants something And it's infecting or it's taking over people's minds.

It just is destructive.

And it's destructive to them, disruptive to our society.

Everything, everything.

And

you cannot feed it.

It just keeps consuming.

You give and it wants more.

Of course.

Yeah.

Because it wants everything.

Right.

It wants to take over.

And it's willing to destroy whatever stands in its way.

Exactly.

And so that's a good way to understand it.

And the best way to understand it, like, so that you don't fall into just woo stuff or like kind of magical thinking is to think about a foreign influence, like to think about a government that is affecting us.

And so, let's say for the rainbow stuff, you can realize that there is an actual principality, like a kind of some transpersonal agency, a demon that

wants something and is devouring us.

And you'll also have foreign agents.

that are willing to feed that because it's to their advantage that you're destroyed.

And so all of this makes sense.

Like it means that you can trace sometimes the causalities.

You can say, oh, I can see that there are people with bad intentions that are influencing us towards something, but they're doing it using a bigger story, which is

basically a coherent path towards destruction.

Any society that starts to emphasize behaviors that lead you away from just having children is a society on its deathbed.

It's a society that's moving towards its own destruction.

Objective.

Yeah, just very, very objective, like very Darwinian almost.

Just like if you don't have children, you stop existing.

It's very simple.

Right.

So you just brought up Darwin.

Where did we begin to go wrong this time?

Is it Darwin?

Is it the bomb?

Is it science?

What is it?

Because

I've never in my lifetime

seen

people

interact and talk about the things en masse

like we're talking about.

I was just sitting here thinking, 20 years ago, I could have had you on the podcast and I would have been thinking the whole time, I don't know who's getting this.

I don't know who's getting this.

I'm interested in the guy.

But now, this is the kind of stuff the average person

at least can recognize and go, yeah, I think I've seen kind of that.

For sure, our world is based on our world now, and all of the positive and negative elements of our world is based on World War II.

It does.

It is related to, in some extent, to the bomb and also to

the things that we did during World War II.

Because one of the problems you can have, like think about it this way, is that

Let's say nations have identities.

They have a transpersonal type of agency.

And

during World War II, the fascists got that wrong.

They treated that as an idol.

They basically said,

we have this national identity or this ethnic identity, and this is ours and it belongs to us.

And we're going to raise it up superior to everybody else.

Everything we've been seeing since then, in some ways, has been kind of a reaction to that.

So we actually now are very suspicious of identity.

And we tend to emphasize things that are diminutive of identity.

And so we want equality.

All these things are not bad in themselves.

They're just dangerous if you don't see where, if you push them too far, where it goes.

And so we want equality.

We want difference.

We want multiplicity.

We want variety.

And then if you push that too far, then at some point it becomes decomposition.

Because variety without unity is just basically death.

It's decomposition.

So that's where we are.

You can see it.

Like after World War II, the next generation become the hippies.

And then you can just cycle it in a few cycles.

And then you end up with basically like kind of crazy woke culture right now.

It's directly related.

That's why

there's a feeling of Marxism in the wokeism.

There's a feeling of postmodern multiplicity.

There's revolutionary ideas in all of the woke stuff.

And it's all because

I think it's like a wave that started at the end of World War II.

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You know, you seem to know history quite well.

Is this a cycle?

I think that's a good way of thinking about it.

You know, that it's hard to know how big the cycle is.

I keep saying that.

It's the biggest in my

this isn't the Jesus movement of the 70s.

There's deep, deep rot here.

I think that that's the best way to think about it, is that there are natural cycles, natural in the sense that

societies and individuals, they emphasize certain things and that leads to certain counterbalance.

And so you have this, these kind of cycles that

the force is.

It's hard to know is how big is this moment?

That's the question because we're clearly at the end of something.

We kind of feel we're at the end of something.

We can even see the new beginning kind of peeking through in these insights.

The fact that, for example, people are now normal people who would have thought talking about trans personal agencies or angels or demons would have thought you were just a kooky, crazy person, are now saying, well, actually, no, I kind of see that this is part of the world.

This is a new beginning.

This is something that's kind of peeking through.

That's the green shoot, if you will.

Yeah, Yeah, possibly.

It might also be negative in some ways, too, because people are like, oh, you know, they are trans personal agents, they're demons.

Why can we talk to these people?

Can we talk to these beings and, you know, have them influence us?

You know, you have these, you have all these stories of tech people, you know, who take psychedelics in order to kind of receive information from the other side, you know, even to build their technologies.

It's very similar.

I don't know if you've ever read the book.

I think you'd love it.

Hitler's Monsters.

And it was a guy who wanted to write the quintessential book on,

he started out, was this a Christian movement or not?

And he went back and he found the deep, deep roots.

Once you get rid of God, then you start going back to witchcraft and everything else.

And

he showed that

Nietzsche is right and you're going to find a God.

But their God was a mixture of science, technology, science, and then the occult.

And that's really kind of where we are now.

Yeah.

I think you're right.

And it is, there is a

kind of a hidden strain of history that most people don't know, which is the development of kind of esoteric and occult thinking.

And that's definitely now.

I mean, now it's weird because it's in the popular sphere.

You know, you have people,

regular people who are interested in these things, say they're witches or interest, you know, or casting spells.

Yeah, it's bizarre.

So it's a very, it's like as if this thing that used to be kind of elite and in the secret societies and all this stuff has now become almost like, we have a witchcraft school at the, like two streets from my house.

It's like, it's a witchcraft school.

I don't know what they're doing.

Just in Canada?

Yeah, yeah.

What are they teaching?

Yeah, it's like, I don't know.

I mean, I didn't go in to figure out.

I'm sure they're teaching people how to cast spells and to do all that stuff.

So it's very weird.

Yeah, we're in a very, so in every town in Canada, for example, now in Quebec where I'm from, you know, there used to be, used to be the most Catholic place in the world.

And now every little town has like a New Age, you know, shop, but the churches are closing down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

when you say that people are casting spells and New Age stuff,

people think they're just shredding, it's just shedding

religion, which is a man's, you know,

man sees and hears God and then his way to interpret and be able to get a group together and pass that information on through religion.

They think they're just shedding that.

But it's

you don't just you can't leave the vacuum.

No, that's impossible.

And that's why you can see it.

One of the things, it's funny, because one of the things that the internet has done is made people aware of these agencies that are running through us because they used to, let's say, these types of agencies used to act on us over long periods of time so maybe generations you don't see it but now we're seeing it happen very quickly because of the internet so we're seeing these things take over like virality in general like you all of a sudden you see something everybody cares about something for like 10 minutes and then it's gone it's like what is this how is it mobilizing people and we're seeing it definitely happen in social spheres and it seems like one of one of the things that there was hope or some of the elites wanted to do was realizing that we have this religious problem and trying to substitute it with a kind of green, like a kind of environmental religion, or also the rainbow-type religion.

Transgenderism, all that stuff presented like the trans is sacred aspect of the LGBT movement,

realizing we need some kind of religious theory.

And so we're going to do this with these other structures.

But religion isn't arbitrary.

You can't just decide what it is.

You get people to get it.

There was a religious movement in

the BC days.

there were times where societies would have these gods

and

men would become women and it would celebrate

abortion and all the things that we're doing.

We're just casting it in a different light, but

it's the same thing.

When you tell me that

No, there's something that's in you, but it's not physical, and it's telling you that you're not really a boy or a girl,

you're recasting the soul

and then attaching something to it that the soul wouldn't tell you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're feeding on,

you're feeding on a narrative and a story and an agency that is beyond your individual.

So you can think about it this way.

It's pretty simple, like in terms of phenomena, you can get it.

It's like a teenager is in a moment of transition.

Right.

A teenager is now is not no longer a child, is moving away from the parents.

And in that moment of transition is the time where you want to cast that being.

That's why we would have initiation rituals.

We'd have all these kind of things to kind of say,

we're going to

take this problem of someone in transition and confused and asking questions, and we're going to give it a direction.

And so all of the, yeah, Barmitz is a good example.

And so it makes sense that...

There's another force.

There are all kinds of things that are trying.

That's why teenagers are always the, you know, the prey of like rock and roll culture or all these things.

And the, I mean, the LGBT stuff is just the most recent one, which is like someone, a teenager, is confused and saying, and then they say, well, we have an answer for that confusion.

We can explain to you why you don't know who you are.

We can explain to you why you have these feelings that make you feel like you're alienated from your body.

And it's totally normal when you reach puberty to be alienated from your body because you're going through such rapid changes that you are in some ways becoming a kind of potential for

on which a community will then

exactly that's a good so that's the moment to get people it's like in that moment of puberty you can completely capture people towards something uh and so we have to if we're if we know that like if we can see it we have to be able to formulate positive answers because this is one of the issues that we have is that one of the problems that's happened I think in North America is that we focus so much on like the individual and everything that we just want the teenager for example to just like to figure themselves out but that's not what's happening when you're a teenager you're actually looking for allegiance you're looking that's why teenagers follow all these weird fashions and all this stuff they're looking to to connect so we have to find ways to give these teenagers a way to see something beyond themselves and to participate in it and if we don't someone else will so it's it's it's interesting because you

The ones who are now waking up, Generation Z, they're not buying any of this bull crab.

And

they're the ones that I think are going to save the world in the end.

They're the hero generation.

But

we have

acquiesced as parents and society, we've acquiesced to the scientists, to the doctors, to the

experts, and we just stand there quietly, even though we know the experts

have no idea what they're talking about.

Yeah.

No idea.

And we're seeing now the results of it and is that because the churches just became irrelevant

i think it might be

in some part because the churches failed to understand the grandeur of what they were holding and so one of the things that we saw in the late 19th and 20th century is that in some ways the churches became very materialistic and on the one hand they were like well we believe in god believe in all this stuff but we also think that really it's science-like, it really is science.

Like, uh, but what but wait, wait, wait, I'm not against science, but

I'm not saying that science isn't real, but science explains mechanical causes,

it doesn't capture meaning.

I think exactly, I think

if there is a God, he's the greatest scientist because this is all math, of course, okay, but that doesn't

math's not behind all this, you know.

Math is how it

exists and how it works, but that's not the mind behind the math.

And that's a good way.

That's exactly the way of thinking about it, is that humans are a joining of mind and matter.

You know, they're a joining of intention, of will, of, you know, agency.

And capital M mind.

Yeah.

And so I think that one of the things that happened is in some ways the...

the church or the Christians, they lost sight of what they were holding, like the story, the world view, you could say, that they were holding.

And they reduced it to morality and science, basically.

But what we have is way more than that.

Like the vision that's presented in the Bible and the vision that's presented in the

Christian cosmology or the religious cosmology is something like an orienting structure.

Right.

It helps people understand how to be, how to be with others, and how to orient yourself as you move.

And if we forget that, then we have this problem, problem, which is that someone else is going to take it from you.

And someone else is going to is going to take that from you because that's actually how we exist.

And so one of the things we've been trying to do, you know, in the past few years is say, how can we help people connect again with these things?

You know, like that's why what I do on the symbolic world is basically help people see how the stories, not just the Bible, but even like our fairy tales, the different kind of cultural stories that we have, that they are these orienting mechanisms.

They're ways for you to identify with a purpose and a group or, you know, a value and then orient yourself with others towards that.

You know, so I've often thought, you know, Grimm's fairy tales, they're really Grimm.

The real ones are grim, you know.

I know you just redid Snow White

and took all the Disney stuff out of it and made it the real tale.

These

were simply ways to tell a story

to prepare you for life.

That's what it is.

That's right, yeah.

In a way you could understand as a child.

Yeah, and you didn't even have to understand it.

It's like, it really is like how when you train a child in doing something,

they don't understand the fullness of what it is that they're doing yet.

Right.

Because they don't have maturity, anyways.

It's giving them a kind of pattern of being in which to embark.

And that's why people often don't understand the fairy tales.

They think that the fairy tales are morality tales, but they're not.

They're much deeper than that.

They're really orienting mechanisms.

And so that's one of the things we were trying to do with these fairy tales is say, can we represent them to the world in a way that will play that role again?

So tell me the story of Snow White.

What's important in the actual story of Snow White?

Well, the story of Snow White is really a lot of the fairy tales, especially these types of fairy tales, they are about transition.

So they're really about about a child becoming an adult.

And so in the story of Snow White, it's a girl.

And so it's like there is a kind of coming of age aspect to it.

There is,

there is, and this is funny because a lot of the Christians, they don't like the fact that there's,

the secular people have told them there's a sexual element to the story.

And the truth is there is, but it's not just, it's not just a sexual story, but there is an aspect of it which has to do with sexual maturation, which has to do with finding your place in the world, and just in general, kind of going through chaos and finding your own identity, right?

That basic story trope of you're somewhere you kind of fall into a kind of confusion and chaos and then you find your way out and you're in a better place that's what happens during a teenage years by the way and so the story of snow white is about that for a girl like a girl a young girl who is innocent and beautiful as she starts to change she now at first faces all the negative consequences of that jealousy from the other women all these

All these men that are kind of like a caricature of men, that they're these little men

that are like just dopey and sneezy or whatever, that they can't be my mate.

So they're kind of disgusting, right?

These men that, and I have to work and I have to clean the house and I have to serve these men that aren't, and I don't know what it is.

And I've just gone through this kind of chaos where, you know, I'm thrown into the, into this, in this, into this world where everything is changing.

And then the story of Sonwaite is about that imaged as a kind of death.

You know,

it is related in some extent to a young girl kind of reaching the age where she starts her menstrual cycle.

And then she finds out what it's all about.

Like, what is this change for?

What is happening?

And then she meets the prince.

That's what it's for.

That's what this whole change was for.

Like, you were a little girl, you become a woman.

And then you realize...

It's not just pain and it's not just annoyance.

There's something beautiful and powerful that can come out of it.

And that's why it ends with a wedding.

That's why it ends with like finding the prince.

The idea of finding the prince isn't like a ridiculous kind of dream of a little girl.

It's like, that's how you make people.

That's how society continues.

So you don't help children.

I have to tell you.

It's so obvious, isn't it?

It is.

It's like, it's so obvious.

It is.

And I don't know if you can.

If you help children reach there, then they were going to lose themselves in the forest before they get there.

That is fantastic.

Disney has given us this little fantasy that you have to have this big, elaborate dress and wedding and everything else, and you're going to be a fairy princess.

And I hate that as a dad of four children, four daughters, or three daughters, it drives me out of my mind that that's because that's coming from this.

It's coming from the Disney, and they've lost everything else.

Yeah, well, right now, Disney, they've basically decided to throw the fairy tales out.

They don't want them because what's in them for them is fire.

Like they can't touch it.

They don't understand it.

They just see it through their own little political lens.

And so, you know, they're making a version of Snow White now.

That's one of the reasons why we published this book was because I found out to the grapevine around 2020, 2021 that Disney was going to put out a version of Snow White live action.

And I thought, they can't.

They can't do it.

They can't have the, there's so many things in the story that they can't do because of all their, because of their kind of weird ideological position.

So I thought, this is the moment where we need to take these stories back.

Like take them back, present them beautifully.

You know, we have, we're doing it in an amazing way with an amazing illustrator, world-class illustrator, beautiful.

This is a beautiful book.

Like kind of, let's let's say, yeah, heirloom book, like a treasure, not like a throwaway thing, something you put up on the shelf and you have to ask your parents, you know, can we read Snow White again?

And so that's what we want.

It's like, let's do this.

Because a lot of conservatives, they complain, you know, it's like we complain about the state of culture.

But we don't do anything.

But we don't do anything.

And that's what we want to do.

So, but I think that's changed.

I hope so.

Yeah, I think so.

What other stories are you telling?

And so what we're doing is we're doing eight fairy tales, kind of like eight of the most known fairy tales, and we're doing them in a series.

So, we're doing Snow White.

The next one is Jack and the Beanstalks called Jackson.

Tell me what that really means.

So, what I wanted to do is like I wanted a girl and boy line in the fairy tales, right?

So, you have a coming-of-age story of a girl, then you have the coming-of-age story of a boy.

And Jack, that's what Jack is about, you know.

And everything is in the story.

You kind of, once you kind of understand the basic images, you can see what it is.

So, Jack doesn't have a father.

You know, he's with his mother, and they're running out of food, right?

And it's imaged as a cow that's running out of milk.

And that's his mother.

Like his mother and the cow are related in the sense that she doesn't have a husband.

You know, she's running out of fertility.

So is the cow.

And so his mom's like, you have to go sell the cow off so that we can have food, but that means death, right?

It's like, just like in the story of Elijah and the widow, it's like, well, I'm just going to go and spend my last money and then we're going to eat the food and then we're going to die.

Right.

And so Jack discovers seed.

So the discovery of seed is both his own transformation into a man,

but it's also something more.

It's also something like, what's a seed?

A seed is like the pattern of food, right?

It's not food, like just one seed.

What is that worth?

It's nothing.

But if you know what it is, if you understand what it is, you can eat forever.

Right.

And so that's, so it's like, it is magic seed, but then seed is magic already because that's what it is.

So the rest of the story is about him becoming a man, facing the problems of manhood, right?

Goes up into the, goes up the hierarchy, encounters the men that just want to devour him, right?

That just want to use their authority and their power to crush him.

And he has to find his way through

that pattern and find this hierarchy of patterns.

That's a way to think about it, right?

So he finds the first seed.

And it's like, well, what's better than a seed?

You know, it's like seed, you can, what does it mean?

What is, I don't know what it means.

So he goes up, he goes up into the beanstalk.

And the first time he gets his bag of gold.

That's something.

Like in terms of becoming a man, in terms of understanding what it means to be responsible, what it means to have authority.

It's like, if I have gold, I could buy food.

Huh, that's an interesting idea.

I don't need food.

But I have gold, I can buy food.

But then there's a problem, right?

That runs out.

So what's better than gold?

Well, the thing that makes gold.

So the next one he gets is a chicken that lays golden eggs.

That sounds stupid in the story, but it's like, well, it doesn't matter.

It's basically first he finds gold, then he finds finds the thing that makes gold.

If I can have that, then I'm good.

I can eat forever, right?

And so that's the story of Jack.

And the final one he gets is, and that's the one it took me forever to understand, which is that he first gets gold, then he gets a chicken that lays golden eggs, and then he gets a harp.

Thinking, what's the relationship between all that?

I can kind of see the other ones, right?

It's like value, you know.

And what I finally realized is that when he gets the singing harp, he's basically getting the pattern of everything.

Something like the logos, something like the song of the world, or the, you know, the

music of the sphere, as they used to say.

Basically, kind of being able to perceive the pattern of everything as he's in the highest point of heaven or something like that.

And so, that is what makes everything move, right?

The music that Aslan created the world with, something like that.

That's what he's getting.

Right.

Yeah.

Talk to me about religious

stories or fairy tales, some would say.

Joan and the whale.

Yeah.

What's going on?

What is going on with that?

Joan and the whale is a beautiful story, it's one of the most powerful stories in scripture.

You know,

I want to be cautious.

Like, I think that fairy tales, for example, in the secular world, are the closest thing to scripture that we have.

But they're not, they're nothing compared to scripture.

Scripture is astounding.

Like, the story of scripture is astounding.

So scripture is God's knowledge given.

Yeah.

This is man's knowledge given.

It's kind of like a pale reflection.

It's like a more embodied, you know, for kids, this is easier to kind of absorb.

Some of the images in scripture are, they're harder.

They're harder to see.

But once you see them, you know, it's really astounding.

So Jonah, you can think about Jonah as, again, this idea that

Jonah is called towards something.

Right.

So think about Snow White, right?

Snow White is facing a transition.

She's becoming a woman.

But that,

how do we do this?

So Jonah doesn't want that purpose.

He wants his own purpose.

So what he has to do, sadly, because of that, he has to fall.

He has to go down.

He has to come back up.

So the story of Jonah, you can think about it as the entire story of humanity.

It's like Adam is called towards something.

And he's like, no, I want myself.

And God's like, okay, well, you're going to make it, but you're going to have to go low.

Like you're going to have to go through a lot of pain and suffering until you finally come to what my purpose is for you.

And so that's really what the story of Jonah is.

It's a repetition of the whole story of the Bible, right?

Because it starts with God calling him a refusal and it ends in a city that is saved.

That's the story of the Bible, right?

It starts in the garden, refusal of Adam, and it ends with the heavenly Jerusalem.

It's like a little image of what the whole Bible is about.

And there are, you know, there are different images that you can see.

The story of Jonah is also a bit of a comedy.

It's like everything in this story is kind of upside down.

It's kind of making fun, not making fun, but

presenting things in an ironic way so you understand the message.

And you can also understand it as a,

let's say, a backward, a return from the fall as well.

So you go backwards from death.

And then you go back up, and then you go into the city, which comes after the fall.

And then after that, he goes into the garden with the the plants and the and the serpent and so it's like this whole structure that follows basically the story of the bible it's really it's really astounding

so what's your background

yeah it's weird it's weird i you know i studied uh i studied art um and uh i was always interested in ideas

i became very disillusioned with let's say academia quite quickly and i saw because a lot of the crazy postmodern stuff that we have now in popular culture in the world of of art was there, you know,

long time ago.

And so all the ideas that are now like bearing fruit.

Where do you think that started?

What art period do you think that started?

That we're kind of still seeing today that's...

I mean, it really is actually early 20th.

So everything that we're dealing with now was already there in the first decades of the 20th century.

So cubism and dada are the model for all the postmodern art.

Basically,

we've kind of accepted Dada and Surrealism as the, as the worldview that we live in now.

Which is insane.

Which is completely crazy.

I mean, we're going to, people will dig up our societies, you know, and wonder and wonder what the hell.

Was that a building?

Nobody will guess at this.

Yeah, they won't ever

think that that was art.

I mean, think about it.

You know, the very idea, even normal people, like even us, will catch yourself thinking that something that has value is valuable because it's different.

That's a very strange way of thinking, by the way.

But we think that.

We think that artists should be different, that artists are always manifesting

like a new way of doing things.

But that's not how the ancients understood the arts.

That's not how the ancient arts were.

That artists were celebratory.

Right.

Right.

They were there to celebrate things.

And so that's what they were.

And they weren't celebrating themselves.

No, they were celebrating their participation in a bigger story, their participation in the state, their participation in their religious tradition.

That's what the artists used to do.

And now we have this weird idea that artists have to question authority, that artists are questioning the narrative, that they're always deconstructing.

And so while I was studying art, I was reading a lot of postmodern philosophy,

just reading Deridat, reading Liotard and Boudrillard, all these French theorists.

And

there was something about it that was kind of breaking me, that was...

that was causing insight in me.

And at the same time, my brother, Mathieu, who wrote an amazing book about symbolism, if people want to know, he was also kind of in that same questioning period.

So in our 20s, we started discussing and reading and talking, and we started, and that's what led me to become Orthodox Christian, which is that I started to see the patterns in the Bible and the pattern in the architecture and in the art and in the music and thinking, oh, wow, this is...

like it's like a tuning whole package yeah it's this whole way of being and of seeing and i started to explore that you know all through my 20s and 30s But it's weird.

It's kind of like what you said before

about how if we had had this conversation 20 years ago, people wouldn't have understood.

Both my brother and I felt like we had found this key way of seeing the world, but that when we tried to explain it to others, they just didn't, they didn't understand it or they didn't even know what the subject was.

Like, what are you talking about?

And then, I mean, so I continued in on my world becoming an artist and also writing about traditional Christian symbolism, you know, writing about iconography, writing about architecture.

And that's what, that's the kind of art you do.

That's the kind of art that I, that I do.

I don't do a lot now, but

because I've been kind of taken on this weird, this weird thing.

So but you were, just so people understand,

you built

altars and so I make yeah, I make images for churches.

That's what I've I did for many years professionally.

You know, icons, carvings, making croziers for, you know, just objects that are used in the church or images.

And that's what I did for many years.

And I wrote about it.

I started with a friend of mine, something called the Orthodox Art Journal, where I wrote about this symbolism.

But I always knew that it wasn't just about religious art, that it was actually about all stories and all images.

I mean, because that's where...

That's where this came from, isn't it?

I mean, it was a way to tell.

Thomas Jefferson said something I just absolutely love.

If you want people to know what you and your culture was about, embed it in the architecture.

Yeah.

And so that's really what they were doing, was embedding it everywhere, telling the story in as many different ways as you can, right?

Yeah, and the architecture is, I really believe, honestly, that architecture is the most important art.

I agree.

Because it tells you what's inside, what's outside.

It tells you, it gives you a relationship to hierarchy.

It gives you a relationship to identity itself, you know, and it's completely unconscious.

You don't have to think about it.

You just realize.

And we know that.

So it's that feeling when you walk into a place and you're just like, oh my gosh, I feel so good here.

I feel, I just want to stay here forever.

Yeah, exactly.

It comes from the way it was all designed.

And the appropriateness, right?

And so it's not like there's one type of, let's say, architecture, one type of space, but there are spaces that are designed to do certain things.

Right.

So, you know, like a den where you're smoking cigars is not the same as a grand hall, you know where you're where you're gonna have a a ceremony or something and so all of these this way of thinking is really and so postmodern architecture is an is an assault it is an assault on humanity and it is trying to reprogram us to understand what is inside and what is outside and what is you know what is above and what is below even the modern skyscraper Think about, you know,

in the Middle Ages or later than that, there were literally rules that said you weren't allowed to build anything higher than the church

in the town.

And that was in order to establish the right hierarchy.

It's like, what's the highest thing?

Well, God's the highest thing.

And then maybe the, you know, the civil building will be the other one.

And we have this kind of this,

it's embedded in the land, in our perception, in our engagement with space.

But when you go into New York, you're like, well, what's the highest thing?

It's the banks.

We know that it's the banks.

It's not the church anymore.

They are the ones that rule.

And it creates this whole sense of it shifts hierarchy.

And then postmodern architecture does that towards the idea of difference or deconstruction or multiplicity or variability.

And so we have these buildings that are completely wacky and that are completely wild and try to actually subvert your sense of inside and outside and your sense.

And it makes people sick.

Like it makes you sick.

Have you ever done any research on Rockefeller Center?

I mean, I know a little bit about it.

I was hammered for saying that is a temple to man.

Yeah.

And it's all embedded.

I mean, I could take you around that and show you everything and say, that's what this means.

That's what this means.

I mean, having statue of Prometheus right there

outside the street.

Right.

And

I'm always amazed that people will walk by.

I think it's, in its own way, a very beautiful building, a beautiful collection of buildings, but you just walk by it and you have no idea that building is screaming to you.

I mean, even Atlas across the street from St.

Patrick's, Atlas holding the world, challenging the church.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

And the thing that people don't realize, and that's the thing about breakdown, is that at first, there's something shiny about it, like this idea of celebration of man.

It can look really shiny at the beginning.

But what's downstream from Rockefeller Center is strip malls.

Like, that's what's downstream from Rockefeller.

And it's like just, you know, like the suburbs.

No, no, no.

No, literally, underground is the first mall.

Yeah, there you go.

It was literally the thing under the grass and the concrete.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you can see that, like you said, if we don't celebrate the right things in the right place, then it leads us to breakdown.

So someone who could go to the Rockefeller Center and say, well, why can't we make things like this anymore?

You know, and it's actually because they made this that we can't.

Because they didn't understand that if you have to celebrate something that transcends you first, and then everything else can come downstream from that.

Well, but they did.

They did.

It was man and machine and the powerful and the money that came from.

I mean, Atlas and Prometheus, these are all images of they are Titans.

Yeah.

But you, you walk into the lobby and it originally was, you know, kind of a weird ode to science and the machine and Marxism.

And

it still is kind of now.

It's an amazing thing.

But they picked their God.

Yeah.

They picked their God.

And it's interesting because Rockefeller said

he wanted a purely American architecture.

And so he was trying to create American architecture.

Interesting.

Saying that america is about the almighty dollar yeah it's about you know man can do anything create anything yeah yeah yeah yeah um

you said earlier that um

this always happens and it it's it's alerting you to an end

okay

um

So where are we on that path?

I have not met more people.

I'm telling you, it is crazy.

I can go anywhere.

And especially before the election, a little less now, people are like, well, maybe God gave us a break.

But before the election, everybody I know was saying, I think Christ is coming.

You know?

Where are we?

What are all of these things telling us?

Yeah, I mean, we think we always have to be, we have to be cautious.

We don't want to just be screaming fire in a building.

But I think that all all the signs, and when I say signs, I mean really the things that we've been talking about.

They're showing an end.

Like they're showing that we're running out.

And

so.

Wait, wait.

Because we all have this,

is that a sign of God to you?

Because it's almost, you know, I used to describe it, and I'm not sure this is correct anymore.

I used to describe it.

You know, when you have something of value, you put an alarm on it.

And God gave us rights.

And I think that's the alarm.

It's almost like a silent alarm going off and everybody going, something's not right.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Something's about to be taken.

Yeah, I think that that's right.

But it happens.

And this is something maybe that can be useful for people to see is that We know we talked a lot about the deconstruction and the decomposition and the breakdown.

And that is definitely one of the clearest signs of the end.

But there's another sign, which is the opposite.

It's something like the compensation for that breakdown.

And so what happens is that as things are breaking down, there's also systems of power that are becoming more and more powerful simultaneously.

And it looks like a contradiction at the outset, but you obviously everybody can see it happen now.

It's like

globalism and its kind of idea of a world government or however they want to phrase it is hand in hand with the destruction.

With like the kind of variety variety and, you know, the same thing.

And this worship of difference and this worship of.

So both of those are happening simultaneously.

So

we have to be able to watch.

So even like in terms of America,

you know, I hate Americans, some might not be happy with what I'm about to say, which is.

Sorry, you're Canadian.

If you're not careful and you focus too much on individual rights,

then you are simultaneously calling upon higher and higher forms of authority because you need an arbiter for those rights.

There's no way around it.

You know, usually the way that it would function in kind of any society or traditional society is that all those relationships would be moderated on the local sphere, right?

So, you know, it's like, who's a guarantee of your rights and responsibilities?

What's your family?

It's your village.

It's your town.

It's your parish.

It's like your church or whatever.

But now because we're like, I'll do whatever I want to do.

And as much on the left as on the right, it's like, I'll do whatever I want and nobody can tell me what to do.

Either that person has like crazy rainbow hair or has a gas and flag and is saying it's me.

That is calling constantly the arbiters of power to become more powerful because you always need someone to arbitrate that power.

And so it's happening in America, but it's also happening even at a global scale.

We can see it.

That's why I think people

Because

I wonder if people really want responsibility.

You know, a lot of people just don't want.

They just want to check in, check out, have a cute little life and move on.

But

real true freedom requires an awful lot of work as an individual.

And we kind of gave that away.

In America, we just kind of went, oh, they're going to take care of that.

We want the rights, but not the responsibilities.

Not the responsibilities at all.

And because we gave it all to Washington, which was a long way away, we can just bitch about how things were being done in Washington because they're falling apart here and not taking the responsibility that, yeah, dummy, it's falling apart here, not just because you didn't pay attention to what's happening there, but because you're not doing anything here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And

I think you're absolutely right.

I think that one of the things that was fascinating about America in some ways is that the rights part was made explicit in order to protect people, but the responsibility part was almost like implicit.

Like everybody knew when it started that, yeah, of course you're responsible.

Of course, of course.

But now we just have the rights and we've lost this sense of local responsibility and local participation and all of these things.

And so it's as if you can see, right, in the story of the U.S., you can kind of see this move towards centralization, even though the beginning of the country was actually a way to try to stop to prevent too much centralization.

But now everybody just looks to the president.

I mean, as much on the right and on the left, it was like, well, the president's going to save us.

It's like, how is that?

How the hell?

How is that possible?

Why is is that real?

That's one of my biggest beefs.

And I've been saying, you got a reprieve.

God was like, you know what?

I'm not into the smooting thing right now.

Let him go.

And

so we have this reprieve, but God only does the things that we cannot do.

Okay.

And then he leaves all the stuff up that we can do up to us.

And it's kind of like, okay, guys, I mean,

I just answered your prayer.

He's not the savior.

yeah it's going to require you to change your life as well and i i hope we've learned that lesson yeah i hope so you know and that's what in some ways at least i mean i think everybody is trying to do their part that's why it's because one of the things we saw i think in the past few generations is how those that are really ideologically taken possessed they want to get involved in education like they're actually trying they go into the the the school boards they take over you know the schools they become principals they become teachers and we're like uh you know, we just want to make money and we don't want to like, we don't want to get involved in this.

But it's like, your kids are getting taken.

And so one of the things we've been trying to do, that's one of the reasons why, because it sounds weird when you, people talk to me, they're like, how are you, why?

Like, you're doing explaining symbolism, but you're writing these fairy tales.

It's like, that's one of the things we want to do is to say, no, we need to be now mindful and say, what stories are we telling our children?

Can we get involved?

Like, how can we get involved in, you know, because a lot of people are doing homeschooling, that's a way to do it.

There are different ways to do it but we need to be mindful and like look towards what it is that is forming our kids and that that's a better guarantee of the future you know than making a million dollars so do you find any of the

call back

to traditionalism

Do you find any of it to be a little scary?

Like, like there's people who I know who are great and they want the Latin Mass.

Okay.

I'm not a Catholic, so I don't understand, but that is full of symbolism and ritual and everything else and sounds pretty great.

But there's also people who are also kind of going a little

further

to again to another kind of dark side of, yeah, now let's use this power and we'll have a

vicar of Christ in power, which is also terrifying.

Yeah.

I agree.

I think that, you know, this is,

you know, obviously I'm an Orthodox Christian, so I definitely do love tradition.

But we have to be obviously careful that we don't weaponize tradition towards something else.

You know, the purpose of tradition is to orient us towards the highest good, which is God.

But if we think, if we think of it as a weapon.

in order to kind of control people and get what we want, then it's doing the opposite of what it should be doing.

And that's the temptation.

It's part of this dual problem that I mentioned at the outset, which is that as we watch things kind of deconstruct and fall apart, like we tend, some people would be want, oh, I'm going to look towards unity.

I'm going to look towards something that binds us together.

And that's absolutely normal and necessary.

But we have to be careful not to do it in a way, you know, that is, in some ways, becomes tyrannical, because that's not what we want.

The idea of tradition isn't tyranny.

It's this balance between unity and multiplicity, right?

It's this balance between kind of things that are set in our ways, but also kind of mercy and forgiveness and compassion towards those that can't kind of necessarily totally align themselves.

And it's hard because it's because when things get crazy and crazier and more and more decomposed, we want to turn around and grab on to the most solid thing that we can find.

And I think that's completely normal.

But we also, like you said, have to be cautious, you know, because I think that that's actually what happened.

in the 20th century.

I think that the shift from Weimar to the Reich is exactly that.

It's like things were falling apart, crazy, chaotic.

And evil, and the people that were rising up were evil, but

they grabbed the churches who were all too willing to participate.

And then it became also about a God thing.

And it was like, what are you doing?

So that's definitely the issue now.

I think as religious people, as Christians, we have to be attentive

to kind of always remember.

the vision that Christ gave.

In some ways, Christ gave the best vision

for that because what Christ offers is a kind of authority and a kind of power,

but that is loving, right?

It's forgiveness.

It's giving itself to those

that

has authority above.

And so we have to be careful not to think, really,

like in the 20th century, to think, oh, things are falling apart.

Now it's total case.

We need to grab this.

We need to just like

impose order and get everybody in step so that we avoid that.

But that leads to its own

it leads to its own I mean we saw it in the 20th century it leads to its own madness um talk to me a bit about and I don't know if you even can but I think the

I think this use of symbolism

by the Jewish people on Sabbath and Passover is the most divine

I've ever seen.

I mean, I don't think they would have lasted if they didn't have those rituals, you you know, being scattered all over

the earth if they hadn't said, what's this spice mean?

What does this mean?

What does this mean?

What do the candles represent?

And had that tradition, they might have forgotten who they were.

I totally agree.

I totally agree.

You know, I think that

we can look at that also for Christians.

That is, we have...

the same thing.

We have it all.

It's all there too.

We have Easter and we have Pasca.

We have Pasca and we have all these celebrations.

Pasca is Easter, wherever you like the resurrection.

And we have these feasts that we've celebrated over millennia and they also do that.

They kind of,

they're similar in the way that the Jewish people have their kind of weekly rituals and also their yearly rituals where they celebrate certain things that bind them together in the presence of God over the year.

And so Christians have all that too.

But because of this weird materialism that has set itself up in Christianity, we've tried to get rid of that, thinking it's superstition or something like that, saying like, oh, this is maybe superstition or idolatry or whatever.

You hear all the time,

well, Christmas isn't Christmas.

That was just, that was the day the sun god worshipers were worshiping, and they just took that.

It's not the date.

That's not the dates, by the way.

I know, but it's not the date that they chose.

And they might have done that to bring more people into the fold.

But they're not teaching paganism.

It was the, let's make this ritual important to teach this principle, right?

Yeah.

And people, it's also because people, because they're not used to thinking in the language of symbolism, they don't realize, for example, you know, people will say, well, look at these images that we use during Christmas.

Some of them look like images that would exist in a pagan world.

And, you know, by the way, that's also true of the tabernacle and the temple, right?

The way that the tabernacle is described in scripture, there are analogies between that tabernacle and some, you know, tabernacle, some temple in Egypt, you know, or

in Babylon, but it's just that it was reoriented towards the true God and towards the true purpose.

And so the idea that sometimes you might find certain things that people are doing in, let's say, in

Christmas, for example.

This is the best explanation I've ever heard.

Yeah, you say, oh, so, you know, the pagans had trees that they decorated.

And so we can't do that because, you know, that's that's stupid.

But it's like, well, what look at the tree we're doing.

Look at what we're doing.

We're putting a star at the top or an angel because in the Christmas story, that's what showed people the way to Christ.

And then we decorate it with all these beautiful images, all these beautiful kind of bright things.

And then we put the hidden gifts at the bottom, like Christ was hidden in the cave or hidden in the manger.

It's like the whole structure of the tree is a Christian structure.

Now, whether or not pagans did something similar, you know,

that doesn't matter.

Yeah.

It's like Satan takes something good and perverts it.

That's right.

God can take the things that have been bad and change it for good.

Yeah, and that's it.

By the way, in scripture, it happens all the time, right?

All of the building arts come from Cain's descendants, right?

They come as a consequence of the fall and are used to build weapons and to build civilization in a negative way.

But then God is constantly taking that and saying, no, no, let's turn it.

Let's turn it towards the right purpose.

And the image of the heavenly Jerusalem at the end of scripture is exactly that.

It's like all of this civilization stuff that you guys have that was developed because of the fall, I'm going to help reorder it towards its true purpose.

Let me go back to demons here for a second.

Tucker Carlson

said recently that he had encountered a demon.

He had scratches on his body.

What do you make of that?

I mean, I know Tucker.

I believe Tucker.

He's not a

grandson.

I think definitely that

his experience is absolutely real.

I don't think he's making it up at all.

You know, I think that the,

you know,

this is going to sound weird for people.

When I say this, it's like, you know,

he's sleeping in bed with his dogs, right?

And so first thing you think is, oh, it's the dogs.

Right.

The dogs did it.

And the.

The answer to me is something like, well, maybe it's the dogs, but maybe just like in the story of the lizard people and the story of the 5G causing COVID, maybe it's not just the dogs in the sense that maybe the causality of it, even though maybe the mechanical causes are the dogs scratching him,

the coalescence of all the things that he experienced, which is he experienced this like terror and he experienced this being frozen and the pressure on his chest and then waking up and having these scratches.

All those phenomena together, even though they might have their own mechanical causes, maybe he ate something wrong or maybe whatever, like God doesn't work outside of mechanical causes.

It's how these come together.

You can't change the math.

Exactly.

It's how these come together into these meaningful, powerful experiences that what's important.

And so if you ask me, did Tucker encounter a demon?

My answer is, I think so.

I think he really did.

Does it mean that there are no mechanical causes to what happened to him?

And that, no, not.

Why would that matter?

Isn't

a miracle in some ways, a change in perspective?

Yeah.

And I think that that's what he experienced.

He experienced something that brought him to be able to see more of reality and to understand his place in the world in a way that he had never seen before.

And that, like you said, is a small miracle.

And

I think that a lot of people are seeing that happen to them in different ways right now, where, you know, through weird circumstances, through all kinds of things that happen in your life, through these coincidences, you could say, that happen, it forces us to see that there's some higher meaning that's kind of drawing us towards itself and do you think you need to have the belly of the whale

to get the land and standing upright again

i think for most of us probably there you know there are stories of people that are kind of faithful from from birth you know you see it in scripture uh

and uh like samuel for example and there's certain characters like that that are but i think for most of us we kind of need to uh kind of smack down because and it's not a, you know, it's not a kind of masochism or it's anything like that is that in order to be able to

give yourself to a higher participation in meaning, you have to experience the incapacity to do it on your own.

And that's true at the micro level.

Like, you know, the only way you can be good in a basketball team is if you understand that you can't do it on your own.

And if you try to do it on your own, you're going to be the worst basketball player in the world.

You have to kind of give that up.

And then when you do, then your little part now coalesces with others and then yields this beautiful thing.

But that's true for all of life, which is that unless you realize that you don't have the power to do it on your own, to participate in the highest goods, then you're going to have to suffer.

Like suffering will be part of your experience.

And that suffering will kind of force you to give up in some ways and to say, no, whatever strength that has has to be in service to something higher or else it's pointless.

20 years ago,

I was on tour

every day.

I was meeting about probably a thousand to 2,000 people.

I was doing a stage show, television show, radio show.

meeting greets for a book, and it was intense every day.

And it was right before Christmas.

And at that time, I had my first real death threat.

We had to have two buses and I'd have to switch buses and you never knew which one I was on.

And

somebody tried to run one of the buses off the road and actually did.

Luckily it wasn't the one I was on.

And

there was this really demonic

video on the internet at the time when it was still pretty young.

And they had taken a clip of me and slow

and then put this driving hard rock music behind it.

And it said Trader, where my name would have been if I was on television.

Okay.

And this computer voice just said over and over again, all traitors must die.

Oh my goodness.

All traders must die.

Terrifying.

Yeah.

So I'm going to these meet and greets every single day with a thousand people coming up.

And I had probably six to eight people on me as body people.

And I'm in this store, this bookstore, and I see this guy.

He's wearing a long trench coat.

It was cold, but he just caught my eye.

Didn't look right.

He had his hands in his pockets.

And

I realized my guys had noticed him too because they started kind of closing in on me as he was closing.

Oh, my.

By the time he got up to me, they were all right there.

And he had his hands in his pockets.

And

I remember thinking, I'm not afraid, not afraid.

I'm just going to wish him Merry Christmas.

And I said, Merry Christmas.

I put my hand out.

And he started taking his hand out.

And he said, all traders.

And he was on the ground.

That's wild.

That

freaked me out, obviously.

And I had this,

I had this wrestle with what I do,

what I say,

who am I really?

Why am I doing this?

And then this connection with God.

I was,

this sounds so weird, but I was given in a blessing the gift of discernment.

And I still have it today.

I don't have it in like this setting per se.

But when I'm in a crowd and I can look you in the eye for a second, I'll hear

sad, tired,

happy, filled with the spirit.

I'll actually hear those things and I can know

what's going on.

And it's from that moment that.

From that moment, it's from a blessing right after that moment.

And

so I go home.

I'm high as a kite.

I have just been through this, but I feel like spiritually empowered.

I get home and there's this big box in my foyer.

I had a year before, and only one person knew this, not even my wife, nobody knew this, I was in a temple and I was looking at this painting of Christ holding the black sheep and the black sheep, his head was in the crook of Christ's arm, but he was looking back from where Christ is walking away from.

So it, and I sat there and I looked at it for the longest time and I thought, why is he looking back?

Is he worried about the other sheep that might still be lost?

Is he, you know, what is happening

in that symbolism,

if there was any.

And

I wanted to get that painting.

And so I had looked, you know, online and couldn't find the painting anywhere.

Year later, I'm coming home from that tour, and this giant box is sitting in my foyer.

And it's right before Christmas.

And I just walked by it because I thought, well, something my wife got for me or something else.

And she just kept walking by it because she thought it was something that I had gotten her.

And I finally finally said,

are we going to move the box under the tree?

And she said, I thought that was something you got.

And I said, no.

We open it up.

There's no note.

There's nothing.

It's that painting framed.

We call the people who shipped it.

And the guy said, look, I know this is going to sound weird.

I don't know you at all.

He said,

but

for some reason, he said, I saw you in a store a year ago and you asked for that painting and they said they didn't have it.

And he said, I just heard, help him find that painting.

And he's like, I'm like, I don't even know him.

I'm just dismissing that.

And he went after a year, dismissing it over and over and over again, over a year's period.

He said, that painting showed up on my dock.

And I went around to everybody and said, where's this painting?

Who put this here?

And he said, I don't know how it got here.

He said, But I interpreted it as Lord, if you want him to have the painting, okay, I can at least frame it and ship it.

He's like, So, I'm sorry if that sounds really weird.

He didn't know the rest of the story.

So, now I'm like,

The Lord has you, He has you, He knows you personally, and He's got you.

Yeah,

I go in for surgery four days later.

I have surgery,

I'm in so much pain, and I'm very high tolerant to drugs.

And they can't keep me out of pain.

And so they're just loading me with fentanyl and everything else.

And I'm in this weakened state.

And

it's bone crushing in this hospital room.

I go from the highest ever

to the most desperate ever because I'm hearing voices.

You think you know how I can, or you think you know how I'm going to destroy you?

You have no chance.

I'm going to destroy you and your family.

And it was real to me.

And if the windows hadn't been in, if it wasn't a New York hospital that had locks on the windows, I think I would have honestly thrown myself out of the window.

My wife calls, says, I'm on my way.

Do you need anything?

I said, no, honey, there's no reason to come.

I'm okay.

And she said, I just immediately overwhelmed with, he's in trouble.

She said, I came.

Now I had fallen back to sleep in between.

And I wake up and my wife is singing hymns.

And the spirit is that darkness completely gone.

I'm sorry, but if you don't believe that that kind of stuff, you know, I don't think that happens to everybody,

but it does happen.

Yeah.

I think everybody has at least little versions of things like that in their life.

But they'll dismiss it as a coincidence.

That's right, yeah.

Or maybe that was crazy.

I was just thinking that.

Yeah, well, in your case, you know, things align so much that it's hard to say.

It's just, it's a coincidence.

But there are smaller versions of that that everybody deals with all the time.

You know, these little moments kind of coalescing and becoming bright, you know, and kind of standing out from everyday life, this kind of boring everyday life.

And that's exactly what it is.

In some ways, they are

little glimmers that we are in something bigger, like we participate in something bigger than ourselves.

And we've been trained to ignore them or to say, like you said, it's just coincidence, it's superstition, you know.

But

these are part of the world.

Like they are what brings reality together.

You know,

this type of thing, like this idea that events come together and kind of manifest meaning, you know, it happens to you every day, all the time.

in the little ways.

You know, every time you were able to finish a project or you're able to work with someone in a team or whatever, you have these little experiences.

And sometimes, like the story you told me, then it shows itself in a way that is really drawing you, right?

Drawing you into something bigger than you.

And, uh, but that's actually how the world works.

It is.

Yeah.

You were brought to

if, you know, I really

I'm a recovering alcoholic.

So I had this massive crash in my life and didn't know what I believed in and blah, blah, blah.

And one of the first things I adopted was don't, don't accept anything as a coincidence, anything for 30 days, dismiss.

Wow, that was weird.

Yeah.

Pursue it.

And sometimes you'll pursue it and you go down a dead end, and there's nothing, you know, that you can find there that other than it was just kind of a weird coincidence.

But there are other times that you're like,

holy cow, look at how God is working, how the universe works.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

And the nihilists are absolutely wrong.

Like they, they, you cannot avoid meaning.

Meaning is,

the world is structured in meaning.

For every movement you make, everything you do, every time you move towards the door or that you, anything that you do is always an alignment towards purpose.

You can't avoid it.

Everything you do.

There's body language.

Yeah, right.

And it's the opposite of what the nihilists say.

It's actually you can't avoid meaning.

You can't.

It's the way that you're.

And how come so many of us are looking for meaning in our life?

That's because

they, how can I say this?

It's like they're looking, they have this lofty idea, right?

You know, Christ says you have to be faithful in small things before you have access to the bigger things.

You know, if you can't see the biggest, the bigger meaning, if you can't find like a purpose for your life, realize that there are purposes in front of you that are very close to you that you can engage with right away, whether it's your friendships, whether it's your family, whether it's your community, whatever it is.

There are these little things that you can embark on that will give you little meanings in life.

And that those,

if you're faithful in those, and all of a sudden, like you said, like the story that you told, all of a sudden, miracles start to appear.

And you realize that the world is actually full of light and is full of miracles.

Did you see that the tabernacle was found in one of the churches that burned down in California?

No, no.

Yeah, there's a couple of stories.

The firefighters are saying now that

there was a tabernacle in a church.

Everything was completely destroyed.

It was like, you know, the chimney and the tabernacle.

Wow.

I mean, that's an awfully hot fire for that to go unscathed.

And there's always stories like that about.

you know, religious icons or whatever.

Yeah, that survived fires and that are like just almost like magically present after the disaster.

Yeah.

These are, I mean, these are real, these are real things.

And you could say, it's funny, you could say, it's a coincidence,

but it's like

you have, yeah, it's like in the case of a tabernacle or the case of the image of Christ or there, or an icon.

It's like, that's the image of the thing that's the most important for you.

And through the chaos, it's preserved.

And it's like,

That's what you hope for.

That's what you wish for.

That's what you want to happen when your family go through a crisis is that the little kernel that seed is preserved through the flood and so when you see it happen why are you saying it's a coincidence it's like that's everything that we're made to participate in and that's everything we look for like every if if you make your it out of a crisis is because you are able to find that kernel that little seed that is kind of going to pull you through that little arc that is going to bring you through the chaos so when it happens at a greater scale why are you surprised it's like that's how the world works that's how your life works that's that's how all of our lives work.

You know, it's um,

somebody said recently to me, uh,

faith is a choice,

hope is a byproduct.

Yeah, yeah, you're right.

And if you, if you align yourself, faith is, is, is, you can understand faith exactly as this,

how can I say this?

It's like

when you're in a, in a situation of chaos, like in a difficulty, you lose sight of that which is pulling you forward.

But you can know that it's there.

You can know that it's there because you're still breathing, you're still moving, you're still eating, you're still doing these little things that are aligned towards purpose.

You know, St.

Paul talks about how faith is

the proof of things unseen.

And that's it, right?

It's like

if you move towards something, even if you don't have it yet, then

like you said, then hope will be inevitable right act can i say this like believe that your family can become a little image of the kingdom of god and that it really can even though it's not right now it really can and if you do that then everything will align towards that like if you really believe it and you move towards it things will align of course act as though it is and it it manifests it will it will come together you know and people weaponize that in all kinds of kind of annoying ways where they're you know they're like if you want to make money you know you you kind of visualize it.

And it's like, yeah, you know, that probably does work, but there are better applications of this than just

making much money.

They're those that actually like hold the world together and like align it towards the highest good.

Final segment with Jonathan here in just a second.

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Come into your local store today.

Can I ask you,

we talked on radio today a little bit about these aliens.

First of all, just what do aliens represent in

the world of icons?

Well, it's all there in the language, if you think about it.

So we say unidentified flying objects.

It's so funny because when someone asks you, they ask you, do you believe in unidentified flying objects?

You're like, well, how can I not believe in unidentified?

They're unidentified flying objects.

So, of course, I believe.

You're not asking me if I believe in.

It's like, what are you asking?

It's like, you believe in aliens.

Well, of course, I believe in aliens.

Aliens means things that I don't know what they are, or people that I don't know what they are, or creatures that I don't know what they are.

So they're obviously aliens exist, and you know, UFOs exist.

Now, what does it mean in terms of the story?

And the key is in that question, or the key is: what is something that's alien?

What is something that presents itself to you as a puzzle?

Something that you don't know what it is, a strange, a stranger, right?

It's like a stranger

isn't like a specific type of person.

It's just the type of person that you don't know.

And so the fact, this has to do with this question, the fact that we're obsessed with the strange, we're obsessed with difference, is the mythological expression of that is something like obsessed with UFOs and obsessed with aliens, right?

Because we see value in the alien, that which is.

Right, so this is the tyranny of

exception.

Something like that.

Yeah.

And so people project.

And so people, well,

there are two sides of it.

Like if you look at the mythology of aliens, you kind of have two aspects of it.

On the one hand, you have the alien in the sense of the different monster that comes and eats me, right?

So if you think of like War of the Worlds, you know, or Independence Day, that's how it's presented.

And so we're America.

There are these like things that we don't know what they are.

They're attacking us.

They're invading us.

They're trying to destroy us.

And we have to stop them.

Right.

So that's one image of

the strange.

There's another one, which is a fetishization of the strange, which is they're angels.

They're going to save us.

These aliens, they're superior.

They're more advanced.

Like we have all this type of imagery that projects them into this higher role where they are now going to kind of save us.

So we have to be attentive to that.

We really have to be attentive to when people kind of fall into these narrative images about what it is that these strange and unidentified things are, because it tells us,

first of all, it shows us that we're dealing with a world that's on the limit.

So the strange manifests itself on the border.

So you have an identity, you have a border, and that which is on the other side,

that's what's strange.

It's the dragon that's out there.

But there is.

But there's also the dragon in the elite circle and the government.

You're like, I don't trust that either.

It's to protect me.

That is one of the problems of our moment now, which is normally

your leader, your father, is the origin of you, right?

The peopers that are above you, they are

related to you, like not necessarily biological, but they're related to you in the sense that they identify with you as a body and you are serving them.

They're serving you.

And so that's like a normal thing.

But one of the problems we have now is that we have this weird situation where people are think that the elites want something else, like they are a strange influence on us.

And so that's the, that's like the, you could say it's the infiltration of the strange into the hierarchy.

It's a kind of corruption from inside.

And the corruption from inside, everybody understands it.

There's a mythological image, which is the lizard people, but there's also, you know, the police chief that is serving another interest besides the one he's supposed to serve.

His interest is he wants to fill his pockets.

So, because of that, he's corrupting the world because he's using his position of authority in order to gather things to himself rather than do the job he's supposed to do.

And so, we can understand this idea of the influence of the strange in our world.

Now, that's the negative aspect of it.

The reason why we also have this image of like the kind of glowing alien or the

one that's going to save us is that sometimes the strange is also a land of opportunity, right?

So like that's where trade comes from.

So the stranger brings new things, like things that we didn't, and so we want to engage with this, with that which is strange because there are hidden treasures.

There are like hidden opportunities.

It grows your world.

It makes your world bigger.

If you kind of engage with the people around you, with the people you don't know or things you don't know, there are like little treasures hidden in that.

And that's what, so the mythological image is these two extremes, right?

This idea of like the alien that will save us, right?

Or the alien that will devour us.

But the reality is in our everyday life is there's a kind of balance between the two, right?

So think about like,

you know, if you think about the idea even just of

space exploration, you know, this idea of going out, like it's a mariner's tale, like this idea of going out on a boat and like discovering new lands.

And then there are like all these new treasures.

But then they're also, you know, like we saw in the Columbian Exchange, there's also like disease and all these things that happen at the conjunction of that which is known and that which is strange.

So that's a way, in terms of storytelling, that's a way of understanding it.

We can see how it affects our thinking.

That to me is more important than understanding what these things are.

So

let me just break it down so that people understand that.

So let's say we have these unidentified flying things, right?

And so we can say clearly that they are an alien influence on us.

There's some kind of foreign influence on on our society, but we don't know what it is because that's why it's unidentified.

So is it extraterrestrials from like other planets that are trying to kind of pierce into our world and communicate with us?

We don't know.

Is it aliens from another dimension or whatever that are trying?

We don't know.

Is it foreign governments?

Don't know that are trying to spy on us or is it our government that are doing things that we don't know what it is and that are hiding from us?

All of those, in terms of story, are the same.

They are

foreign alien influences that are trying to affect us, and we don't know what they are.

So, whichever it is, and I'm not saying it's one or the other, but whichever it is, we can see it in the same way.

So, instead of debating, just like

obviously, we have to find out what these are because it's dangerous to have, yeah, to have alien influences that you can't recognize and you can't identify.

It's very dangerous to have that.

It's like a spy or like you know, like it's also, it also, you know, part of this is,

you know, I've had the thought,

is this the government staging this to distract us or to do some sort of mind game on us?

Because it does play mind games on us.

That would be a lizard, the lizard person situation.

Right.

Where the government has intentions that are opaque to us, even though they're supposed to be our leaders, but they're supposed to help us.

Right.

But they have other intentions.

We don't know what they are.

They're opaque.

And so they're lying to us and pretending about these things.

What happens to a society where you you don't get the answer?

I think that either it leads to further breakdown or

it's a hidden aspect to create more tyranny.

It has to be one or the other, right?

So it's like if the government, let's say, is trying to

establish more control over us and they use this smoke screen, the smoke show of like aliens that are coming to distract us while they're doing something else, like a magic show, right?

It's like it leads towards tyranny.

If it's, you know, if it's like

foreign governments that are trying to get information from us or do that, then it leads to similar consequences, which is basically being taken over by a foreign power.

And so, all of these, that's why, you know, when you have But wouldn't you, wouldn't it be better for society if the government came out and said whatever answer it is and just said, look,

here's all of the documents.

We really don't know what it is, but we think it's this.

Isn't that better long term for a people than saying, what are you talking about?

That's a conspiracy theory.

For sure, there's a game being played.

There's definitely a game being played.

I think that the U.S.

government, but not just the U.S.

government, the modern government

uses secrecy, you know, that we are used to thinking that it's normal that the government keeps secrets from its people.

And they, you know,

it's not.

It's absolutely not normal.

It's very odd that we have these secret agencies that function without, we don't even know what their, what their structure of accountability is.

I've talked to congressmen who oversee those people.

And they don't even know.

And they say, I'm not telling you.

I oversee you.

I'm oversight.

Yeah.

Nope.

Nope.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's not normal.

That's a very, very dangerous situation for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it has to do with this problem.

You know, the because think about the secret.

Like a secret is a good way to understand what it is we're talking about.

So a secret is something that's hidden.

It's that's unknown, right?

That's similar to the alien.

There's something happening and there's it's hidden.

I don't know what it is.

I can see some, like I can see some things poking out.

Like I can see things kind of poking out and and I can see that there's some phenomena, but there's a secret.

And that, that exactly, how can I say this?

That is this, that is the realm of that all of this story, the realm of the alien, the realm of all of this stuff.

It's also the realm of iconography, is it not?

There is something there, but it's it's kind of hidden.

You have to study it and you can find the answer and it it has the story.

Yeah, well, so there's there's a type of secret that is bound in religious stories, which is something like the secret of the sacred, the secret of the divine, right?

So God

does, God reveals himself in small ways.

And behind those revelations is something much larger and bigger and more and loftier, right?

So in that sense,

that's the good secret.

There is obviously something that's a good secret, which is, you know, there is something of, a good example would be like, there is the secret intimacy that you share with your wife.

That's a good secret, right?

That is, that is very different from

the alien conspiracy type secret.

Yeah.

A destructive secret.

But secrets aren't bad in themselves.

Like intimacy is a form of secret.

Yeah.

But like it's different from intimacy and alien is the opposite from each other.

Right.

Intimacy is a secret that we share together and that we know, and it's to our goodness.

And the alien secret is a secret that I'm keeping from others with other intentions that are using you you to get something that I don't know what it is from you.

It's very different.

It's great to talk to you.

I hope you come back.

Oh, definitely.

This is a great conversation.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks.

Thanks.

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