Former Gov't UFO Hunter: Evidence We Are NOT Alone | Luis Elizondo | The Glenn Beck Podcast | Ep 226

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And now, a Blaze Media Podcast.

From the dawn of time, there have been two main questions that have dominated the minds of all humanity.

Is there a God?

And what happens when we die?

By the 15 and 1600s, the arrival of the Renaissance, a third question began to pop up.

A man named Nicholas Copernicus.

He theorized that it was the sun and not the earth that was the center of the universe.

If we were just some other rock revolving around

the sun and the rest of the rocks

around an energy source,

wait, are we the only ones out here?

Three questions became, is there a God?

What happens when we die?

And are we alone in the universe?

Now, we can answer the first two, at least for me,

but I don't know on the third one.

I mean, I think I know what, I know what I believe, but I don't know who to believe on this.

Alien and UFO enthusiasts in the modern era have been searching for that answer for decades.

Two big years stand out for me.

One is 1947 with Roswell, and the other one is 2017, when an article popped up in the New York Times that showed detailed footage of what appears to be a UFO taken from a U.S.

Navy pilot.

We've talked about this several times on the podcast, but my guess today is the reason why this footage was viewed by millions the world over.

We all wondered for decades, is our government looking into UFOs?

Are they hiding it?

Well, you're about to hear from a man who directed one of those programs for the Department of Defense at the Pentagon.

He says he knows all the details about what was written by the New York Times in 2017.

He also claims to know what really happened in Roswell back in 1947.

He talks about it all in his new book, Imminent, Inside the Pentagon's Hunt for UFOs.

Are we alone in the universe?

Get ready for some strange encounters with Lou Elizondo.

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Lou, great to see you again.

How are you?

It is always an honor and privilege to be with you.

Thank you very much, Glenn.

How are you?

I'm doing great.

I'm doing great.

I have to tell you,

I'm listening to your book on audio, and it is,

I mean, I don't even know what to think.

It is so crazy.

You go into some crazy stuff.

Let me just, let me start here at, I think, the...

the basic question that everybody would want to know.

There was a movie in 2018 called UFO.

And at the end of the movie, there's an FBI agent who asks the main star, Do you know what this means?

And the star, after a dramatic effect, he says,

It means we're not alone in the universe.

So are we alone?

Well,

no, we're not alone.

And first of all, let me apologize if you're listening to my audiobook.

I have the silky, smooth voice of a cement truck in high gear going down a mountain.

You were great.

So I'm

actually thought how you were really good at it.

I thought it was really good.

I appreciate it.

I, you know, unfortunately, I'm not a voice actor.

So what you see is sometimes what you hear is what you get.

Yeah.

I mean, this, this,

I wrote this book for one very specific reason.

And I explained to folks years ago, I knew this was going to be a very lengthy process.

And I knew it would have to go through the Pentagon for security review.

You know,

when you write something,

it becomes indelible.

There are reasons why the spoken word and the written word are treated slightly different.

You know, an interview like this is great, but over time, these things kind of get hidden into the Ethernet and bits and ones and zeros.

Whereas the spoken word is indelible.

It's forever.

It outlives the individual for a long time.

And it's the reason why, you know, for example, Egypt wrote the Book of the Dead on papyrus, right?

And why the Magna Carta was written on parchment?

Because it serves as a written record and hopefully will outlive me.

But more importantly, this book went through the Pentagon for security review.

And that's important because this is not just words I put on paper.

It was my experience and the experience of other people that I was with.

And it turns out that the government for a very long time has had UFO programs, plural.

And what they found in some cases was astonishing.

And yeah, I know how people are probably taking this and they're probably like, well, what do you mean?

And how do we know?

And has the government said anything?

And, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So Lou, you know, right now there are people who are saying we never went to the moon.

You know, I've talked to the astronauts that have walked on the moon.

I am convinced we went to the moon.

You know, it screwed a lot of them up because it was the greatest thing.

If you've ever talked to Buzz Aldrin,

he got lost when he came back from the moon because there was was nothing greater that he could do than that.

But, you know,

when you're talking about UFOs or

what are they called now?

UAPs?

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you're talking about UAPs,

we have no reference at all that is trustworthy.

I mean, you know, let me go back to the movies.

Mirage Men.

I don't know if you've seen that, but it's a documentary.

It's told of an Air Force OSI,

you know, a special investigations agent.

And his operation was to deceive UFO enthusiasts.

And one of his targets was driven clinically insane because his job was to make people think that UFOs were real to cover up government stuff.

And we're living in a time where nobody trusts anything that comes from the government.

Nobody trusts anybody who's been in intelligence anymore, unfortunately.

So

how are we to gauge what's real and what's not?

Yeah, I think that's a great question, Glenn, because we have to always remain critical.

of our information sources.

And unfortunately, as a society, we've become very lazy over the last several decades.

And we're used to

having information spoon-fed to us.

And no longer is it even just information, but we want, you know, the old Bird King saying, we want it our way and we want it now, right?

And

if you can crunch in, if you can compress in a five-minute snippet, a narrative that not only tells you what I think I need to know, but maybe even how I should feel about it.

That's what has happened, unfortunately, with information these days.

And you're right.

You know, the government has a long history and the Pentagon has a long history of lying and deceiving people.

One could look very simply at things like Iran-Contra and the Pentagon papers and the Afghanistan withdrawal recently, right?

Where we say one narrative and then it turns out to be the exact opposite only after they've been exposed for that.

And I think that look, so back to your question, you know, how do we know what's real?

Well, I think when you start looking at the historical records that are out there, and there are historical records, government-sourced information and intelligence reports that have been released by the government through the FOIA process.

When you start looking at some of these UAP reports going back in some cases to the 1950s and early 1950s, this paints a very compelling picture that what we're dealing with is something very real.

This is before really even the height of the Cold War.

This is before we had just entered the atomic age.

We had barely broken the sound barrier.

We did not have a sophisticated propaganda.

propaganda machine in full swing until a little bit later.

So when you have these reports of these UAP over our national laboratories,

there's radar data on these things, there's eyewitness testimony.

And in some cases, even footage, film footage.

That's a little bit different, right, than just someone saying, hey, trust me, bro, there's UFOs out there.

And then you have, go ahead.

No, no, please finish.

No, no, that's it.

So

it's not just now.

People are looking to the media now and saying, oh, wow, this is, you know, all this has occurred in just the last seven years.

It really hasn't.

The government has had a long-vested interest in this topic for a very long time for various reasons.

And it's not just our government.

There's other governments, Russia, China, other governments that are very interested in this topic as well and have been for a long time.

So, when you were brought into your first meeting, where you thought,

holy cow, there could be some truth to this because you hired skeptics.

You were a skeptic.

You weren't, you know, you're not out with a, you know, running chasing for aliens all the time.

You didn't even think about them when you were first asked.

Correct.

So what was the first briefing that you had where you thought,

holy cow, this might be real?

Well, you know,

there's two ways people usually, in my experience, kind of absorb this information.

The first one is this almost this epiphany, this revelation where it's this aha moment where people go, oh my gosh, it's real.

And then for others, probably in my case,

where it's more of a slow, steady, gradual realization.

I was never prone to, as a kid, a science fiction buff.

You know, my background in college was science, microbiology and immunology.

So I'm a disciple of the scientific

methodology and principles.

Yeah.

And then later as a special agent, I always consider myself just the fax man kind of guy.

But it comes to a point where you start getting information and evidence that's so overwhelming.

And let me caveat, we're talking military sources, right?

We're not talking about grandma seeing some lights, you know, in the backyard.

We're talking about very sophisticated military equipment.

In some cases, some of the most premier aircraft on the planet with the most premier sensor systems on board.

So you have fighter pilots, top gun fighter pilots that can identify the difference between an SU-22, a MiG-25, and an F-16 from 10 miles away and recognize immediately friend or foe, right?

Do I shoot it or do I save it?

On top of that, those observations are being backed up.

They're they're being validated by electro-optical data, gun camera footage, FLIR footage, right?

And then on top of that, that data is being backed up by radar data, right?

So whether it's airborne radar like the E2 Hawkeye or the SPY-1 radar on board a Ticonderoga-class ship,

these are some of the most premier sensor suites on the planet.

And there's other capabilities, which I can't talk about because they get kind of sensitive.

So it's not just one source of information.

You have eyewitnesses, you've got gun camera footage and radar data all saying the same thing at the same time, at the same place, under the same circumstances, right?

So now let's put that on a backdrop of with my background as a, as a former special agent.

You know, if you were to go to trial, you're well beyond reasonable doubt right now.

You know, this isn't just eyewitness testimony.

This is data sensor

information that we're getting that allows us to prosecute and win wars.

Right.

And so I think that's what's important.

For me, that is where, that is when I began to realize.

I mean, I heard a lot of interesting stories.

General Uchoa, for example, from Brazil, when they ran their investigation in Colaris, Brazil.

Very compelling.

But at the end of the day, I wasn't there.

I didn't see it.

Right.

But when you have the data and you are in the office, you're in a skiff and you have the videos coming in, the classified videos, and you're looking at them from all the various platforms, that becomes very compelling.

So can you talk about what you can talk about?

Because in your book, you talk about Colaras, Brazil, and you were in a briefing with a Brazilian Air Force general.

Can you talk about

that and what you heard in the briefing that is not a top secret?

Sure.

And it's been substantiated, by the way, by other military members of the Brazilian military.

So

this was

an event that occurred over several days in a place called Colades, Brazil.

There were some locals that were reporting being intimidated and in some cases injured by these strange things in the sky.

We call them, of course, UAP or in the vernacular UFOs.

And as fantastical as that may sound, the government of Brazil launched a full field investigation into this.

And it turned out that when they went down with their military personnel, led by General Uchoa at the time,

They had sustained injuries and they witnessed firsthand, according to them, these UAP interfering with the local village, in some cases, injuring individuals, and even some Brazilian military members being injured as well.

So,

how do you mean, can you describe the injury?

What kind of injuries are we talking about?

Sure.

Well, some showed signs where significant blood loss.

Others showed what appeared to be some sort of directed energy type injury, maybe significant.

Some I would say probably is that's significantly similar to what you might expect from microwave energy exposure.

Some redness of the skin.

There's a full morphology on some of these injuries.

But Glenn, I think that the bigger, the more important aspect of this is this is not an isolated case.

There are other examples around the world where people have reported the same thing.

But more importantly even than that,

as interesting and compelling as that may be, it was not my focus.

It was not our focus.

Our focus was really focused on the military and current U.S.

military encounters with UAP over our controlled airspace and over our sensitive military installations so were have any U.S.

military people been injured by UAPs yeah I think the American public would be shocked there are two individuals that are now on full medical disability I actually saw the medical records myself held them in my hands uh and Senator John McCain late Senator John McCain was instrumental getting their their medical files released in the first place.

They had a UAP encounter in England in the early 1980s in Rendlesham.

And it states for the record their 100% medical disability is associated with an event that occurred there in Rendlesham, the UAP event.

So the government is already,

in a way, soft-acknowledging the reality of things.

You don't put somebody on 100% medical disability if there's nothing to it.

So,

you know, these are just small examples.

There's a medical doctor, I won't say his name, who's had many, many patients who he's looked at that have claimed to military and intelligence personnel who have claimed to come into contact or up close with the UAP and have sustained

medical complications as a result.

You said you held it in your hands.

What did you hold in your hands?

It was a document from the U.S.

government

for full medical disability for an individual where they said, yes, we are giving this person full medical disability because of

their involvement in an incident at Rendellshaft.

That was the incident, the UAP incident.

So can you get into the incident?

Were they terrorized?

Were they close to something?

Was there a beam?

Yeah, there was military personnel.

In fact, there was a Colonel Holt.

If you ever get a Charles Holt, if you get a chance, there was an audio that got leaked.

This was a very senior person on the base.

They kept encountering these UAP UAP near the airfield over a very sensitive facility.

I can't say it was necessarily there, but there was a very sensitive capability that the United States had there.

And these UAP seemed interested in it.

In some cases, some reported them over near the flight line.

In other cases, they were over the forest, Rendlesham Forest.

And one of the individuals who

was launching the investigation on behalf of the base commander

had a recorder, a digital record,

I think it was actually an analog recorder, tape recorder, in his pocket.

And he recorded the events of when they were going out to find this UFO that was reported

by the police, by special police, Air Force Special Police out there.

And so I'll give you kind of a little background here.

They go out and they're investigating

these lights, these strange things near the base.

And two individuals, two enlisted folks who were cops at the time for the base decided they were going to go out as well into the forest and try to find these things.

And apparently they did.

It's not my story to tell.

You can look it up.

It's called the Rendlesham incident or Bentwaters incident.

These two individuals, despite what anybody says,

will tell you their version of the story.

And they are on medical disability by the U.S.

government because of it, because they

got injured.

They sustained some sort of injury and it has affected them long term.

They have claimed, again, I don't want to let the cat out of the bag because it's their story to tell, but they claim to have come into contact with, got very close to this UFO, and then woke up a little bit later and

kind of meandered

back to the base and reported it.

And it's a fascinating, fascinating.

Now, this occurred well before my time.

This is 1980, 81 timeframe.

So, you know,

I wasn't there.

But what I can tell you is that there's enough documentation and eyewitness testimony from the people who were there that

very, very compelling.

Is there any

evidence of implants?

You talk about that a little bit in your book.

Can you go deeper into that?

Sure, sure.

I know it sounds crazy and kooky, but there have been some individuals where foreign bodies,

something that was not there before, have been removed from individuals.

In fact, there was a very, very senior CIA official, an intelligence official who I will not name here.

I think they may come public at some point.

Him and his wife had a terrifying encounter and some of the medical doctors back at the organization there that they worked at removed something from them.

And again, it's not my story to tell, but what I can tell you is that there's a significant amount of information to suggest that some individuals who have claimed to have come close to a UAP have had objects removed from their bodies and the objects that are removed from their bodies are very unique.

They have, it's like a cross between, think of a technical device.

I don't want to say chip because I think it's that you know people say that, but it's not really a chip.

It's some sort of foreign body there and it has encapsulated itself with tissue

to what appears to be to mask itself from the autoimmune response of the human body.

So whenever you have something put inside you, the body's always trying to reject it and get rid of it.

And there's what they call an immuno cascade that occurs with white white blood cells.

And that's why you get, you know, bruises and things and infection because your body's trying to fight whatever is inside you.

In this particular case, there does not seem to be an immune response.

And these things seem to be highly motile, which means maneuverable,

which, if you can imagine.

These things go through the body?

Yeah, yeah.

Like a nanobot almost.

Almost like, yeah, but that, but think about that from an immunology perspective, at least from the world I come from,

there are microorganisms, they're called spirochetes, that do that.

The problem is, is as they whip through your body, they create this incredible trail of destruction and the body reacts to it.

But that doesn't seem to be the case with some of the things that they're removing from individuals.

Veterans, by the way, in some cases, even the Department of Veterans Affairs has removed these things.

And then when they look at them under a microscope, In some cases, they seem to have their own metabolism, meaning their own ability to either store or use energy even after it's removed from the body um and so very compelling i am i'm going to tell you right now i am not a doctor a forensics doctor uh i'm certainly not going to tell you that i can validate and verify what the doctors are saying because i'm not a doctor i'm just repeating to you what some of the doctors analysis was in some cases one was was particularly upset by it and said look i i don't want to look at this anymore um i don't know what it is it's doing things that i'm not used to seeing something like this do It shouldn't be able to do this.

And I really don't want to be involved with this.

Wow.

Was it, do you think, sending information back?

We don't know.

We don't know.

I mean, look, we as human beings do this all the time in the African Serengeti.

We get in a helicopter, we shoot a microchip into an animal to look at its O2 intake, its blood, you know, its iron levels.

I mean, look, I've got four German shepherds, and

I chip every one of them right in case one by chance gets lost.

There's all sorts of reasons, not necessarily transmitting anything.

In this case, like with dogs, it's a passive device, but who knows?

There are people that are looking at these things that are doing some study in them.

I have to be very careful what I say because there's HIPAA and patient confidentiality rules that apply.

But it's intriguing enough to say, you know,

there is something unique about these things.

So,

have they used technology to interfere with any of our technology?

You talk a little bit about ICBMs.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's reports of that too, Glenn, that have been released over the last few years.

The government has actual reports on UAP interfering with our ICBMs.

And in fact, some cases...

taking offline an entire flight.

A flight is a bunch of different missiles kind of daisy chained together and coordinated from a central location.

And there are reports, intelligence reports, official U.S.

government reports.

In fact, a lot of them are online now because the government released them, where they spot these luminous objects coming over a particular flight or a missile silo and all of them now going offline.

And

if that is not

concerning enough, there's information to suggest in Russia, they've actually turned them on.

So, you know, we're paying attention.

Any country, put this, you know, take UAP aside, any country that has the ability to fly undetected into our controlled U.S.

airspace over our sensitive military installations and interfere with our nuclear response capability, part of our nuclear triad, that's extremely problematic because that means maybe we're not as ready and capable to respond to some sort of nuclear strike.

So think about that for a minute.

So it is a very significant concern for us.

This seems like you're describing something malevolent.

I mean,

well, we have to be careful with that, don't we?

I mean, we could say malevolent, but some people will say, well, you know,

they're interfering with our nukes because

they don't want us to blow ourselves up.

Okay, fine, but we already did.

I mean, I hate to say it, but Hiroshima and Nagataki, right?

I mean,

they didn't stop the testing from going from the atomic age to the nuclear age.

They didn't stop the proliferation of nuclear weapons to now getting into the hands of a dozen other countries.

They didn't stop Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, or Fukushima.

So, you know, I don't know if there's any information to suggest that they are necessarily benevolent.

Maybe there is.

And then, you know, there's the other option.

Maybe they're neutral.

Maybe

whatever it or they are are just interested in observing us.

Look, we do it all the time with other species on our planet.

And so

when you're asking about your question about seeing about being potentially malevolent, that ascribes some sort of intent.

And right now, we have no idea the intent.

We've seen some of the capabilities, which is important because that's half the calculus to determine if something is a threat from a national security perspective.

You have capabilities and you have intent.

Now, we've seen firsthand some of their capabilities, and they can outperform anything that we have, but we still have no idea the intent.

And so, therefore, we don't know if it's a threat.

We don't.

There's a Glenn, I don't know if you remember this.

I think last time I used an analogy with you and your audience,

you know, I think we agree that most of us, you know, we live in nice neighborhoods, safe neighborhoods, but most of us still lock the front door at night before you go to bed.

I know I do.

Do you?

Yes.

Okay, so some people might even go an extra step and they might lock the windows and even turn the alarm on before they go to bed.

Imagine one Sunday morning you come downstairs for a nice hot cup of tea or coffee.

And as you come downstairs,

you see size 12 muddy boot prints in your living room carpet that were not there the night before.

Now, no one's been hurt, nothing's been taken, but despite you locking the front door and locking the windows and turning on the alarm, there's now boot prints in your living room that were not there the night before.

So my question to you is, is that a threat?

And I think the response is, well, it could be if it wanted to be.

So we should probably do our due diligence and figure out how this is getting in here, right?

Whoever's making these footprints, we got to figure out how they're getting in here.

And so that's kind of the same analogy here.

You know, these things are coming into our controlled U.S.

airspace, they're outperforming some of our most sophisticated military equities.

There's not really a whole lot we can do about it.

Is it a threat?

Well, if it was, let's say, an airplane that had a Russian star on the tail or a North Korean tail number.

Yeah, sure it would be.

You would see a huge reaction by the U.S.

government, and we would scramble two F-22s and get it out of our airspace.

But because the things don't have a tail number or a Russian star, in some cases, not even a tail or wings or obvious signs of propulsion, nobody wanted to have the conversation.

It was crickets.

They were basically told, do not report.

If you see a UFO, you see a UAP, don't report it, which is really antithetical to everything that you hear about when you go to an airport or a train station, see something suspicious, say something.

This was an exception to that rule.

Nobody wanted to have the conversation despite the overwhelming evidence we had from the U.S.

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Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other.

When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a four liter jug.

When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.

Oh, come on.

They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia Trip Planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip.

Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.

Whatever.

You were made to outdo your holidays.

We were made to help organize the competition.

Expedia, made to travel.

So you talk about Roswell,

and that's probably the most famous UFO kind of thing.

And

you say that it happened and that

it crashed.

Have you seen?

Why do you know that?

How do you know that?

That this was real?

Yeah, so for several reasons.

One was some of our scientists in our organization

had made that claim, but they also backed up that claim.

And there was material that was allegedly recovered.

I can tell you definitively when looking at the material it is very very unusual.

Some scientists had done some research on it.

To this day we were I should say that about three years ago I think we finally got to the point where three or four years ago where we were able to to at the macro level bring together the two materials we saw in this in this this material.

And to this day we still cannot replicate the physical properties, the physical aspects of the material that was recovered.

And when you ask some of the best and brightest in the aerospace corporations, they say, look, we have no idea what this would be used for, and we still can't replicate it.

Well, okay,

that's interesting, but who can?

Right?

And they say, well, you know, it's possible country X or country Y

now has that capability.

Okay, well, what about 50, 60 years ago?

And you get back this

big stare and like there's no one had that capability is the response.

And I liken it to going into King Tut's tomb for the very first time in the 1920s, opening it up, the vault, and seeing a fully assembled 747 sitting in there.

It doesn't make sense temporally.

They did not have that technology.

And the same thing is with some of this material.

In some cases, we still don't have the technology.

And so, but, but there it is.

It's engineered.

Someone put it together.

So, so tell me, what, what is left?

What happened that day and what is left?

Where?

How much of this material

were there bodies?

Yeah.

tell me what happened that day.

So, as report goes, it was actually two.

There was actually um, two incidents.

Um, there was two crashes, not one.

Uh, and uh, one was

partially recovered, and there were there were biological specimens inside, uh, allegedly four, and they were very quickly whisked away, taken to the military base to lock them down.

They didn't want the locals touching them or getting getting a hold of them.

And, of course, we know what happened after that, which was this campaign to say, Oh, no, these are mylar balloons and stuff like that.

You know, these were crash test dummies that came down.

Well, that's interesting because we weren't using dummies back then for some of these tests.

You know, we weren't using dummies until later.

So, um, these

specimens were looked at.

I don't know where they went after that, um, and where the material went after that.

The trail gets kind of cold.

Turns out later that there was another uh U.S.

military installation, Wright-Patterson in Ohio, that also was was involved in looking at material of crashed unknown vehicles of unknown origin.

And

yeah,

there's even some very interesting

documentation out there.

If you know where to find it, again, that's completely unclassified.

Anybody can look at it.

There's a site called the Black Vault.

The gentleman who runs that has a huge, huge, huge library of Freedom of Information Act releases that the U.S.

government, the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, the Department of Defense, the DIA have all released over the years.

And there's a treasure trove of these documents.

And when you start reading these documents and realizing these are official government documents to the director of the FBI, from the director of the FBI, to the director of the CIA, the National Security Council, these are real.

These are legit.

You know, this is not Lou Elizondo telling you this.

This is your government telling you this.

And I think

the government always lies to us.

Yeah, no, yeah, sure, sure.

yeah no touche of course uh but you know a lieutenant colonel that's there in the field writing a report they're not lying to you you know a politician maybe you know a senior person that's uh trying to cover their butt yeah but you know a low-level lieutenant colonel who's there who's an mp military police is just writing the report to his general that's they're not lying to you that's that's a real report written by a real real individual about a real real occurrence so have you been allowed to see anything I mean, I assume there's been other crashes.

Have you been able to actually see this evidence with your own eyes, the actual physical evidence?

Yeah, I actually gave a briefing to a senior member of the Department of Defense in 2017, several briefings, about the material that

I personally have held in my hand.

I have held it in my hand.

And so have other individuals that, and I'm not going to say who they were, that worked for very, very high-end aerospace companies,

best of the best.

And they're looking at this from an engineering perspective, and they're scratching their head.

They're saying, you know,

I mean, I can see it.

I believe it.

But I can't believe this material was found back then.

And under those circumstances,

this material, we did not have the engineering capability.

It isn't.

an engineered piece of material.

It's layered.

It was studied by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

It's been studied by other organizations as well.

And of course, that's really the gold standard, isn't it?

When you have material that you can analyze and you can

look at that material and succinctly say, yeah, this material is very special and it requires an X degree amount of technology to manufacture or reproduce.

And frankly, it did not exist at the time the material was found, at least not with us,

with humans.

So

there seems to be a theme with the spottings, and that is nuclear test sites or nuclear sites

and water.

Why?

Yeah, so you're right.

Nuclear technology.

It's not just nuclear weapons, it's nuclear propulsion, nuclear technology.

We've seen them over our national laboratory, Savannah River facility.

There's some reports that came out, Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

But, you know, if you think about the Navy, right, a lot of people are aware of the Navy incidents.

Well, what is a nuclear carrier strike group?

Well, it is a huge nuclear footprint.

In some cases, probably a bigger nuclear footprint than the entire state of New York, because you've got a nuclear-powered carrier.

You've got other vessels that may be nuclear-powered.

You've got submarines that have nuclear power and other nuclear capabilities potentially.

So you've got this huge nuclear footprint.

And we also have known, the two things that you just said are correct.

There seems to be a relationship, a correlation between UAPs and water and nuclear technology, nuclear capabilities.

We don't know why that is, but if you think about it, again, back to the nuclear carrier group, strike group, it is nuclear, it's a huge nuclear footprint, we're in the middle of the water.

And so that's why my colleagues and I had put forth a plan called Interloper to try to

get one of these things.

And when I say get one of these things, explain what Interloper is.

This is fascinating.

This is fascinating.

True.

Yeah.

So when I was at the Pentagon, my colleagues and I realized that there was this interest in our nuclear equities and water.

And so the idea was to create a,

in essence, a honey trap, be able to create an irresistible target that we knew UAPs would show up to because every time these guys were going out, like with the Roosevelt and the Nimitz, they were seeing UAP.

So we said, okay, let's work with the interagency group.

Let's talk to other members of the intelligence community.

And let's create

this honeypot where we would put this nuclear carrier strike group in a certain area.

And then as a UAP show up, you know, we turn on the lights.

We turn on all our sensor data to start collecting information, telemetry and other stuff on these signatures, on these UAP.

And so everybody liked the idea.

It went up.

It got staffed, went up to the joint staff.

We had a lot of support for it.

And then at the very end, it got killed by somebody at a very senior level.

And

there's some speculation why that.

occurred.

A lot of folks believe it's because we were getting too close to another

UAP effort, long-running UAP effort that the U.S.

government had going on, and it was

put on ice for a little while, and they were getting concerned that maybe our group was getting too close to their group.

I don't know if that is correct.

That is just some

suppositions by some of the folks, some of the members of our team.

I don't know if I personally believe that.

It may have just been too risky.

There's always this concern when you're talking about UAPs in the government because it's controversial.

And I don't think anybody wants to be associated with UAP in the government because it's got kind of that silly factor that woo factor um

so you know there's there's some there's some political issues there that we're also also

there's also stuff that you talk about in the book like collins elite talk about collins elite what is that

yeah the collins elite is a group of and i don't want to say fundamentalists um i would rather say probably

uh

maybe more radical um religious individuals in the government, particularly in national security, the Pentagon, the intelligence community, that are very

staunchly devout religiously.

And by the way,

I'm religious, so this is not, I'm not, I'm not hating on anybody, but they had a moral issue with us pursuing this topic.

They believe that it contradicted their theological belief system, that these UAP were in fact demons.

They were, you know, it was, if you studied UAP, then you were going against the word of God.

And by the way, there are some.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Why?

Because

we can only be, we're the only intelligent beings in the universe or

because they actually believe these were demons?

Yeah, no, I

can't tell you why they thought what they thought.

Look, there's people right now that believe it,

that these things are demonic.

My response is, look, at the end of the day, I can't say for sure that they're not.

I don't know, but I think we should figure it out.

I don't understand how

I've never seen anything in the scriptures or anything that says demons need needed vehicles.

Well, you know, I think they're going back to scripture of being deceivers and trying to lure us away from

the path, you know, path of righteousness.

Again, I don't want to get preachy here.

I understand their their perspective.

And by the way, I don't blame them for it.

I'm going to be the first one to tell you.

But what I do disagree with it.

I think at a minimum, we need to figure out what's going on.

Look, Galileo, when he first proposed that the Earth was not the center of the solar system, look what they did to him, right?

They almost killed him for it.

They even refused to look through the very telescope that he had made to prove his observations.

So,

you know, and at the end of the day, it didn't really at all

contradict religion at all.

In fact, maybe in some cases, maybe you've reinforced it and showed the grandeur of the universe.

And so I had a conversation not too long ago, a couple of years ago in Italy with a very senior academic from the Vatican about this topic.

And he said to me, he says, Look, you know, it's interesting you say that because at least in the Catholic faith until the 1600s, it was heretical to say that there couldn't be life somewhere else because you're putting artificial limitations on the dominion of the notion of God and his omnipotence.

So,

you know, I think it's probably more of a modern interpretation that maybe these things are

representative of some sort of demonic

presence.

I don't subscribe to that.

And there are some religious fundamentalists in the government.

I don't mean just Christian, right?

There's fundamentalism by any other word is still fundamentalist.

But are you talking about,

because I've never heard of this group, are you talking about like a secret society that is coordinated on thwarting things?

And how did you even find out about this group?

Sure.

Yeah.

Well, we've faced them before.

They were trying to shut the program down.

We knew who they were.

I'm not going to say their names, obviously,

but I knew who some of these people were.

And they were very, very religious.

They wore their religion on their sleeve

and everybody knew it.

And

there are examples in the Pentagon that you can look back historically of individuals who are devout and they make decisions

based upon their faith.

And again, I don't personally necessarily agree with that, but I also don't necessarily fault them for it.

And so McConnell's elite, going back to this secret society, I don't want to be conspiratorial because I don't know if it's necessarily a formal secret society.

That's what they're referred to as.

It could be just a loose affiliation of like-minded individuals that,

for whatever reason, don't like this topic or like to influence national security decisions or recommendations based upon their faith.

I don't know.

I don't know enough about the organization to say definitively,

but

there is a strong alliance with some of those individuals.

And if something is against their

perspective, then they tend to become very vocal about it.

Let's go into some of the weird stuff that I think is weirder than this.

Skinwalker Ranch.

I'm at my ranch right now, and Skinwalker Ranch is not far away.

And the

people

in this area are very fascinated by Skinwalker Ranch because it's Indian lore, Native American lore, and also lore, you know, stories that have been passed down and been told, you know, around campfires or, you know, serious, you know, people talking over a cup of coffee, you know, in the morning.

What is your relationship to Skinwalker and

what can you tell us about it?

Yeah, I don't have a real relationship with Skinwalker.

When I first came into the program, there were elements of our effort that were very focused on Skinwalker.

So tangentially, I would read a report here and there.

Look, there's a lot of weirdness in this world.

And

I think part of the problem is that

anything we can't explain,

we say is paranormal.

When in reality, everything by definition is paranormal until it becomes normal.

This cell phone 50 years ago would certainly be considered paranormal.

It's just something we don't have an explanation for yet.

There is weird things.

in this world,

not just UFOs.

You're right, the indigenous people of this continent have long reported skinwalkers and wendigos.

I live here near the Crow Nation.

And, you know, if you get them talking candidly, they'll tell you there's a deep belief in this.

And there's people who also report seeing and encountering strange things.

You know, is it a natural phenomenon like ball lightning or St.

Elmo's fire?

Which could be.

But maybe it's something else.

You know,

we're always putting limitation.

Let me give you a perfect example of this, Glenn, if I may digress just for a quick second to kind of emphasize my point.

I went to school to study microbiology and immunology.

And our species, there are some scientists that

will propose that our species has been here around in modern form, Homo sapien, sapien, between 100 and 200,000 years.

Now, if that's the case, it was only 2,000 years ago because of the Greeks, we recognized there were two types of life form on this planet, and you were either A, a plant, or B, an animal, and it kind of wrapped humans as being,

you know within the animal kingdom uh and it wasn't until 300 years ago only 300 years ago so if you look at a 24-hour clock and say 200 000 years ago is you know

one zero zero in the morning right uh it's only been roughly the last maybe 40 seconds uh towards midnight that we discovered another form of life that's been on this planet all along and it's neither plant nor is it an animal and that's the world of fungus and so we pat ourselves on the shoulder

and if you look at that 24 hour clock, it's only been the last five seconds that we just discovered the true dominant life form on this planet.

In fact, if you take all the biomass of every plant and the biomass of every animal and the biomass of every fungus and add it all up together, it still does not add up to the true dominant alpha life form on this planet that's been hidden all along.

And in fact, it wasn't until we could have the technology to curve glass and look through a little metal tube and famously shout little beasties, little beasties, did we discover the world of microorganisms.

And in fact, they live inside of you.

They live on the skin of the ISS space station.

They live miles underneath the Arctic ice.

And we just discovered them.

We just now discovered the true dominant life form on this planet.

You know, we're always learning something new about ourselves and about our place.

And the one thing that we're usually right on is that we're usually wrong at first in our assumptions and presumptions.

And, you know, is it possible these things, people say, well, it's impossible because the great distance of of outer space, these things never could, they could never travel, you know, across the heavens.

Well, is it possible these things are just as natural to Earth as we are?

Is it possible we're now at a point where technologically we're beginning to interact with them?

Is it possible they're from the bottom of the ocean?

Is it, I mean, all these things are possibilities.

And so, you know, I always try to encourage people

to keep all options on the table until they're no longer on the table.

Can you tell me the difference between

AAWSAP

and AATIP?

Yeah, depends who you ask and what day of the week.

I can tell you with my involvement, when I came in, the contract was under the auspices of AUSAP.

Think of a big umbrella.

There was a smaller effort,

yeah, AAWSAP, AUSAP.

And then there was an effort, and that included Skinwalker Ranch.

Then there was a more focused, nuanced effort that was focused primarily on military incursions of UAP.

And that was my focus.

That was my interest in that.

And so some of the folks that were working OSAP were also part of ATIP.

Some people will tell you that ATIP was a nickname, but it also became a very formal name.

And you can see that in the 2009 memo that Harry Reid wrote to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, Lynn, where he talks about ATIP and P, and ATIP means program.

Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program.

You can see in other documentation that the Pentagon has as well that ATIP was a a formalized program later on.

And in fact, you had the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence himself testifying before the American people saying that they reviewed the ATIP files and the Blue Book files,

another UFO program, a predecessor to OSAP and ATIP.

So it's, you know.

Really, it depends who you ask.

Some folks will tell you that ATIP was actually part of OSAP, or others will say, no, it wasn't.

You know, I personally, I can give you my perspective, but I'm sure there's 100 people out there that will tell you what their perspective is.

And you were the director of ATIP.

I was the senior ranking person.

I had my own staff that answered directly to me, but it's also important to note, Glenn, that there are other individuals that I worked with that we were colleagues.

We were co-workers, and they worked in other organizations, other agencies.

They didn't necessarily report to me.

We worked together.

So I had my own staff at the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence.

I was the director of national programs, special management staff.

And in that capacity, I ran ATIP as a director for that, those people.

But then there were other individuals, colleagues that I worked with as well that weren't under me necessarily.

We worked together.

Right.

Can you tell me about how you got recruited for this?

Yeah.

So

I was working at the Director of National Intelligence, and the commute was terrible.

My wife and kids, we decided to raise our kids on a little island in the Chesapeake Bay away from Washington, D.C., just because we didn't want them around the hustle and bustle.

We wanted to try to give them some sort of normal life.

But my commute in some cases was three hours each way, right?

It wasn't uncommon if I spent more hours in a car in a day than I did at work.

So the commute was untenable for me.

So I was offered a position, temporary position to come back to the Pentagon for a little while and set up a program for taking national level intelligence information and defense intelligence information, classified information, and figure out a way to get it down to local law enforcement.

After 9-11, we realized it was a big problem.

There was all this information at the national level, but the cops on the ground who needed that information weren't getting it.

So, one of my jobs was to work with DHS and DOD and other agencies and figure out a way to get classified information to people who don't necessarily have a security clearance.

So, that's what I was brought there to do.

And shortly thereafter, I was approached by a couple folks who asked me to come in.

They came to my office first.

We talked a little bit of small talk.

They were very vague about the job.

And it wasn't until I met the program director at the time for OSAP, Dr.

James Lukatsky.

By the way, the epitome of a rocket scientist.

I mean, the absolute, absolute, probably one of the world's premier scientists on aerospace and rockets.

He's far too humble to tell you that himself, but he really was and probably still is.

So a bit of a national treasure.

So I remember having a conversation with him in his office space, the Pentagon.

When I wrote the book, I had it it in there and he asked me to redact it, so I had to take the location out.

But

I went to see him in his office and he told me quite bluntly, he just looked at me and said, so what do you think about UFOs?

And so I answered him truthfully.

I said, I don't.

And he said, well, what do you mean?

Do you not believe in UFOs?

And I said, no, you didn't ask me that.

You asked me, what do I think of them?

And the answer is, I don't think about them.

I'm too busy, you know, chasing bad guys and trying to get, you know, do another job.

And he said, okay, that's fair, but don't let your, you gave me a warning and he said, don't let your analytic bias ever get the best of you because you may learn things that are going to challenge your preconceived notions and your narratives of what things are and what things should be.

And I found it very peculiar, but

at the end, he was absolutely right.

I mean, it was okay.

It was an honor and privilege.

I had a really good chance to meet and work with some amazing human beings.

It wasn't always easy.

I had two terrible portfolios at the Pentagon.

I was running, I had,

I kind of joke sometimes, I had HVD high-value detainees and I had UFOs, right?

The two worst portfolios one could ever, both of them were, you know, one of them would have been terrible enough to run in the Pentagon.

Both were just, you know,

probably

professional suicide, if you know what I mean.

Yeah.

But, you know, I.

I did it.

And look, let's not forget that now the U.S.

government has an official UFO program called Arrow.

You have have legislation that has come out, landmark legislation over the last couple years, and there's new legislation coming out.

So the government's taking this seriously.

Whistleblowers now are, there's legislation to try to protect them.

Congress is now being informed.

And

let's look at the reality here.

The moment we start

taking our radar systems and recalibrating them to, I don't know, maybe look for UFOs, what happens?

We start seeing Chinese spy balloons wafting over northern continental United States, just collecting intelligence and information, right?

Meanwhile, I've been telling everybody, oh, no, there's nothing in the skies.

We've got everything under control.

Every time there's a new UFO report, annual report going to Congress, there's more and more and more unresolved issues, right?

Talk to the fighter pilots.

I'll tell you, in some cases, these UAP have come so close to their aircraft, they have literally split the combat formation.

Right down the middle.

Wow.

But that's an air safety issue, right?

I mean, this is real.

This is a problem.

The Pentagon has already said for the record that they can't explain a lot of these things.

Some of these things do not have any type of prosaic explanation, and they appear to be maneuvering

in a way with capabilities that exceed anything we have in our inventory.

So, I mean, that's your government telling you that.

That's not me telling you that.

They said that for the record.

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So our government has been involved in so many things, sometimes really good things, sometimes really dark things.

Absolutely.

And we've done horrible things to our fellow man.

Horrible.

Horrible.

I mean, look at the syphilis experiments, right?

I mean, we let human beings die.

I mean, this is, it's appalling.

You know, so when people say, oh, you know, we would never do that.

Oh, we've done a hell of a lot worse than that.

You know, trust me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, but you were in a project called Project Stargate.

Can you talk about Project Stargate?

Yeah, so let me be very clear.

Stargate at that point had supposedly ended.

What there was were these vestigial

pockets of individuals who were part of that program that were trying to revamp, to basically

bring it back, rebirth it, yeah, rebirth it, bring it back.

And so Stargate started quite some time, several decades ago, in the late 60s and early 70s, by a gentleman named Dr.

Hal Putoff.

Dr.

Hal Putoff had worked for various intelligence agencies, worked for Stanford University, and the CIA was very

interested in trying to gain a strategic advantage over the Russians.

We knew that the Russians have what they call a psychic espionage program.

We knew that.

So we wanted to have a psychic espionage program.

And so so Al Putov was one of the guys who created it.

It's a true story.

You can look it up, and it was called Operation Stargate.

And before that, it was Grill Flame.

And before that, had a bunch of other names.

It bounced back and forth between CIA, DIA, INSCOM,

Intelligence Security Command.

And they were recruiting soldiers.

to

who apparently displayed a certain type of level of a gift, cognitive gift, to spy on the Russians using psychic power.

Now, before we kind of say, oh, that's silly, look, law enforcement agencies to this day still use psychics, and they're recovering people.

They're finding dead bodies, they're finding people alive.

You know, I'm not going to say it's not strange, but it's effective.

We know it's effective.

In fact,

if you look at the history of Stargate, you'll see there were some incredible moments where the fidelity of information,

even our best satellites couldn't pinpoint.

In one case,

there was a crashed Soviet supersonic aircraft, test aircraft that crashed over africa and we couldn't find it and it took a couple remote viewers and and they were able to locate the uh the aircraft so it it does work how it works i'm not sure anybody really knows yet i do not think it's paranormal at all i think it's probably involved in quantum mechanics quantum physics if you talk to a lot of neuro neuroscientists now they'll tell you that they believe human consciousness is actually a quantum process and if you understand that then it's not such a big leap to understand the you know, what we refer to as psychic.

It's really just a

it's something that a lot of people do,

you know, quite often.

It's funny because it's,

I don't know if you, if you know this, but there was a program in Germany, and Hitler released some of the gypsies and some others from prisons

that had, quote, psychic ability.

And they, one of them was a diviner, and they drew drew a giant picture of the oceans on the floor, and he would divine

where the subs were, where the American subs were and the enemies and the ships.

After a lot of money and a lot of time, he turned out to be a complete fraud and went back to the concentration camp and was killed.

But people have been trying to do this for a long time.

Yeah, and they have.

And so early in my civilian career, there was a gentleman,

Gene Lessman, an incredible guy.

I go to his whole background in the book.

And he was, in the early stages of the recruitment, was teaching me these skills.

I had no idea what it was for.

I had no idea what he was doing.

And then just one day out of the blue, he's like, okay, you know, it's gone.

You're going to be getting this assignment to Latin America.

And I never heard anything afterwards.

And it was really strange.

The whole time actually we were talking, I wasn't sure if he was just trying to assess me psychologically.

Maybe, am I prone to flights of fancy?

It wasn't until later that I realized that what he was doing was getting me prepared for the next iteration or the follow-on to Stargate, which never happened.

There was just no funding for it.

Congress had pulled the funding.

But it's fascinating.

It's fascinating.

And, you know, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I was great at it.

You know, there's a lot of people out there that have

skills far better than that.

And I certainly ever did.

But it is interesting to me.

Go ahead.

You talk in the book that you can remote view or have.

Yeah, but I think, you know,

a lot of people do that.

When, for example, when you're out of town and maybe

a friend or your child calls and you're like, man, you know, I was just thinking about you.

I was just about to call you.

That is an example of what that connection may be through maybe perhaps it's quantum entanglement.

You know, you start, the human brain gives off brain waves.

That's how we know if somebody is clinically dead or not.

Okay.

So that's that's there's electric, bio, biochemical processes that occur that become bioelectric processes.

We transmit all the time.

In fact, there is recently a YouTube video of a gentleman who I believe is quadriplegic, and they fit this helmet onto him.

And now he's playing Call of Duty simply with his brain.

Right.

So

we know that's a fact.

People give off brain waves and it's possible that potentially people can, as we transmit, maybe some people are more in tune and can receive them.

I don't know how it works.

I'm certainly not a scientist or am I qualified to even think how it works, but I would, you know, someone like Hal Pudoff would be a great person to talk to because he can tell you everything about that program and what the gaining theories are and why it works.

And remote viewing, though, is the idea that you can remotely

see things.

You can go places.

You could be in the, you know, the.

See things separated by space and time.

Now, that is the definition of it.

Um, you know, it's there's also compelling information to say that, you know, people say, well, as much as it works, it also doesn't work.

And, you know, they're right.

They're right.

There's examples where it fails miserably.

So, you know,

it was never to be used as a tool, as an exclusive means of collecting information.

It was just there to help hone in.

I suspect very much like why law enforcement to this day uses people who are quote-unquote psychics or whatever

to help them in investigations.

Again,

I was not really exposed to it for very long, so I'm certainly not an expert in it.

I

saw some things and was privy to some things, but there's organizations and people out there that could probably give you a much better comprehensive understanding of how it works and if we're still using it and whatnot.

Tell the audience what you say about when you were briefed in the skiff

from

your main scientist on how they think UAPs work with, I think you call them warp bubbles.

Yeah, and actually, that wasn't my term.

The U.S.

government, so let's kind of backtrack here just a little bit.

Let's rewind.

One of the arguments is that

the vastness of space is so great and that we cannot break the universal speed limit of the speed of light that it would take centuries, if not millennia, for a life form to get here.

It's just the vastness of space is too big.

There are some theories that kind of shortcut that, because we know we can't go faster than the speed of light.

But if you look at the theories of what they call an Alcubierre drive,

you can compress and stretch space-time to a degree that allows you to go travel faster than light without actually having to break the speed of light speed limit.

Now, I know it sounds kind of strange, but if you look at how this theory works, it makes sense.

In essence, you create a bubble around yourself

and you can compress space-time in front of you while space-time is being, in essence, elongated behind you.

And so you move within this bubble.

What is space-time?

Because people will say, well, you kind of hurt my head here, Lou.

What do you mean space-time is flexible?

There were three types of physics models.

The first was Newtonian physics.

Really, during the Renaissance, it was Newton who really understood the relationship and the observations of physical matter in a physical world, right?

Force equals mass times acceleration.

I put enough energy into this and it's going to go this direction.

It's going to stay in that direction until it's interfered by an outside force, et cetera.

Then along comes Einstein, who proposes that space and time, the very fabric of space-time is connected.

We look at this empty space and so there's nothing here.

But if you can imagine that the very volume of space that you let's say draw a magic cube and say, okay, here's space, it's flexible.

And

a lot of people say, well, I don't understand.

Well, we've observed it.

We know that's a fact because right now the Earth is warping space-time.

And in fact, what we call gravity, which is that, that's not really gravity.

That's an effect of gravity.

What this is, is simply the warping of space-time.

And so the objects come together.

If you could, the scientists at ATIP came forward and said, look, for all these years, we've been trying to find the different exotic technologies that can explain the peculiar performance characteristics of UAP.

In essence, how do UAP fly, right?

And what are all the

technologies you would need to do it?

It was in 2015 where they had this revelatory moment where they realized the five fundamental observables of UAP, which were hypersonic velocity, instantaneous acceleration, low observability, trans-medium travel, and in the vernacular, anti-gravity.

were all possible if you could do one thing.

And I just want to emphasize, this wasn't my theory.

This were the theories posited by our scientists.

And they said, basically, if you could insulate, you create a bubble around you in a localized area that insulated yourself from the effects of space-time, then the way

people would perceive you inside that bubble would be different than the way you perceive space-time.

Meaning, for example, if you were to eliminate all the effects of Earth gravity and space-time around you,

and you could manipulate space-time in a localized area, What for you is just a walk in the park, maybe taking a stroll down the road.

To me, I would see you going in a, in a, in super fat feet.

So, I'm going to let me give you an example here.

And glad I'm not an artist, but let me see if I can make this

really easy here.

So,

you're playing one on the podcast.

Yeah, I'm going to pretend to be an artist and I'm going to

put it down to

while you're doing that.

I've always understood space-time as more of a map

of

where you are.

And,

you know, it's a map.

Oh, that's what you're drawing.

Yeah.

So in essence, what you have, this is a two-dimensional representation of space-time.

You have points A and B.

And let's say I fly from LA to Baltimore, and it takes me five hours and 2,000 miles to do it.

And that's usually expressed as a function of distance over time.

right and you can express that linearly but if you have the ability to compress space-time a little bit in front of you all of a sudden now your distance between A and B

is shortened significantly, right?

Correct.

And so it's kind of like

an Einstein wormhole, isn't it?

Yeah, it's really the same principle of a black hole.

So a black hole is nothing more than an extreme Earth or an extreme sun where the gravity

is so great that it literally rips a hole in space-time itself.

Everything that has mass and volume has gravity of some sort and warps distorts space-time.

And so

the scientists said, hey, look, if you could create this bubble, then you would be able to do things that seem like magic to the outside, those of us watching it, but in reality,

it's just advanced physics.

And it's

so it's a rather lengthy mathematical formula, but folks like Hal Putoff and others were the ones who came up with the theory.

And it was kind of this unifying theory for the first time that the government had that explained, okay, well, maybe this is how they're working.

And in fact, may even explain the shapes and the morphology of UFOs from small inticular.

You know, think of a sports car, maybe a whole three or four people.

You need something bigger.

Well, you could put two disks together, but really end-to-end, but that's more of a cigar shape, right?

So, okay, you got two bubbles now.

And then if I want something really big, I could go out 90 degrees, put another bubble maker here, and that's your triangle, the larger triangle craft.

So it was a very interesting theory.

And the scientists came up with that and it, you know, made a lot of sense to the other scientists.

Do you think that's where we're at now?

Is that what we think it is?

I mean, not saying that it's right, but is that where we are?

Is that where we were when you were?

No, that's well,

that's where we were.

And I'm fairly confident that that

theory, that, well, it's more of a hypothesis, I guess,

is still accurate.

But those are the, you need, you would need to talk to the scientists about that.

People like Hal Putoff can give you the specifics.

Yes, that is the gaining theory, but there may be other theories as well.

And like I said in the beginning, all options have to be on the table until they're no longer on the table.

I think this is, at the end of the day, it's just about fact-finding and looking at the observations, look at the performance capabilities, and try to see what type of physics is required to explain it.

Did you see the theory on the missing

Malaysia airliner where it was...

Have you seen that?

I've seen it.

And I'm always very careful for me, Glenn, because recently, so look, I'm a science guy, right?

I've always just follow the science.

Recently, about three weeks ago, Google, someone on Wikipedia decided to label me as a quote-unquote conspiracy theorist.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all.

That's just someone trying to minimize

this topic and kind of chip away at the narrative.

I'm very careful

to be open-minded about everything.

I know that the Malaysia airline, there were some people that were claiming there was maybe some UAP involvement.

I don't know.

I did not pursue it.

I know some of the people that I've talked to were

dead for it and dead against it.

Sometimes it's a complete nonsense.

It's fake.

Others said, no, that looks legit.

And I could not tell you, Lynn.

I have no idea.

a i do not go down the the conspiracy rabbit hole um very often simply because i

i'm trying to remain open-minded towards everything if i can

so when you left um

why did you resign and and then decide to talk to the new york times and

Is that when the trouble started with the government?

Were they?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why did you resign?

so?

Uh, for years, we were having these issues with UAP coming up close and personal to our military equities to the point where I remember an email from someone out in the fleet saying, hey, man, we're we basically can't keep people below deck forever.

These things are all over the ship.

What do you want us to do?

And time and time again, yeah, the cavalry's coming.

We're trying to get you know, senior leadership involved, we'll get you an answer.

And so, I kept briefing senior leadership.

Uh, at the time, my chain of command did not have a permanent USDI.

That is a Senate approved, Senate confirmed position.

And so the leadership at very senior levels did not want to tell Mattis,

Jim Mattis, about this topic.

They wanted to wait till we had a permanent USDI, have the chain of command work, and then inform the boss and see if we could give some sort of

answer to the questions that they knew he was going to ask, right?

I had a chance to work with Jim Mattis Mattis back in Afghanistan.

He's an incredible human being.

He's one of five people that if he called me at four in the morning right now and said, put your boots on, you need you to go to war, I would do it.

He's an incredible human being.

And if you know Jim Mattis, he's a man who wants more information, not less.

So we were briefing his seniors.

There was also an individual in my chain of command that was not necessarily, in my mind, very trustworthy.

There were two open IG investigations against the individual.

So I could not brief him.

So I had to go around that individual.

And there's actually a story, if you want to know what actually happened, it's called, it was done, I think, by there by Popular Mechanics or the debrief.

It's called Sex Lies and UFOs.

But in there, you can see what actually happened to me.

So

when I decided to leave the Pentagon, I wrote a resignation letter that I knew they would not be able to stop.

They would not be able to legally keep it from the Secretary of Defense if I addressed it to the Secretary of Defense.

So I did.

And that's when my trouble started.

I think it was about a day later, I was asked by Chris Mellon and a few others to have a meeting in Crystal City where I met somebody that turned out to be somebody from the New York Times.

And I was terrified.

And they said, hey, look, you know, we know about the program.

We'd like to talk to you about it.

They were going to write a story anyways.

And,

you know, at that point, you have to make a decision.

Do you tell them your story and let them create their own narrative?

Or do you give them your perspective?

So at least it's fair.

So I told them what I could without getting to anything classified.

And then later, Senator Harry Reid

confirmed the program.

And I think that's really what pushed it over the edge for the New York Times to say, holy crap, this is real.

I mean, the senator himself is admitting it.

And that's when my trouble started because my chain of command got very upset with me for breaking rank.

It was very, very difficult.

It's still very difficult because there's still elements of that resistance in the Pentagon that will continue to lie about what ATIP was about, what we did, who we were, to the point where

my good friend, the senator, had to actually write a memo.

He wrote it to a journalist, and I didn't even know about it until after it was released, stating what, for the record, what my role was, right?

And there's ample documentation that substantiates what we were doing, what our focus was, and who I was.

And there's this continued effort to try to feed misinformation to the American people.

And I got to tell you, Blent, for me, UAP aside, UFOs aside,

that is not what motivates me.

What motivates me to have this conversation is three things, transparency, accountability, and anti-corruption.

And, you know, when it comes to the government, I took an oath many years ago to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

And it turned out that the bureaucracy was part of the enemy.

And, you know, I left the department, strangely enough, out of loyalty, not disloyalty.

I'm actually just finishing the job they gave me in the first place.

That's all I'm doing and raising the alarm bells and making sure Congress is informed because somewhere at some time, someone in government, someone in government decided to, someone made the decision to not tell Congress and not tell the chain of command.

And we live in a democracy.

And the moment you start doing that, you start

what I consider as a corrupt act, where you start making decisions against your own

sense of your own moral compass, right?

That you now have a corrupt behavior.

You're doing something that is corrupt for the benefit of your trading something, a value, your values for something else in exchange.

It's a very slippery slope, you know, from democracy to tyranny.

This is not

the worst.

Yeah, you have to have accountability.

And if it is your job, we forget this is a government for the people and by the people.

And if you've forgotten that, you need to get out of government.

You are a servant of the American people.

And

if you are not prepared to do what is necessary

to satisfy that oath, then you got to get the hell out.

And this is not just with UFOs.

Time and time again, we see people making unilateral decisions.

Look, you can only classify information for two reasons, protect sources and protect methods.

You're not allowed to classify information to save embarrassment to the government.

You're not allowed to make things classified because to hide malfeasance.

And yes, that is exactly what's happening.

People are abusing the system and they're making decisions on behalf of members of Congress and the executive branch by themselves in a vacuum and a void.

And I think, look,

if that's the way it's going to be, then fine, but then let the rest of the American people know because, you know, we know how to deal with that.

We've done it before.

We'll deal with it again.

Be straight with the American people, but don't lie, don't obfuscate.

Don't say, you know, this isn't true when you know it is true.

And the documentation is there because all you do is you destroy the credibility of the entire system, of the entire apparatus.

And that erodes

the very core of what democracy means.

And

this is what drives me every day to do what I do.

UFOs aside.

Yeah,

we're on the same page.

That's the same thing that drives me

for most of my job.

Lou, always great to talk to you.

Thank you.

Enjoyable book.

I still don't know what to think, but thanks for being out there.

Appreciate it.

That's right, Glenn.

I appreciate it.

And, you know, there's a, there's, there's, you ever want to talk to some other folks, let me know if your audience is interested.

Yeah.

My book is my personal, you know, it's my perspective.

And it got approved.

It took about a year, but it went through the security process and it got approved by the Pentagon.

So hopefully anybody else who wants to come out and be a whistleblower and have a conversation doesn't have to start from scratch anymore, right?

They can look at what happens.

I would love to.

There's other whistleblowers.

I would love to hear from them.

Love to hear from them.

You know, you should talk to a guy named Dave Grush.

He's a good guy.

Dave.

But David Grush, he testified before the American people

about the topic, and he is legit, 100%.

I worked with the guy.

He is who he says he is.

Interesting guy.

But, anyways, my honor and privilege, Glenn, as always, thank you so much.

Enjoy your wonderful ranch.

I'm in Wyoming right now, where I live.

So we're neighbors.

We are.

So, anyways, thank you very much for all that you do.

Thank you.

Take care, good day.

God bless.

You back.

You too.

God bless.

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