Best of the Program | Guest: Mary Harrington | 6/2/23

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You're listening to

the best of the women back program.

The contributing editor for Unheard.

She is the author of Feminism Against Progress.

She used to be known as Sebastian.

Her name is Mary Harrington.

Welcome, Mary.

How are you?

I'm very well, thank you.

How are you?

I am good.

I don't even remember where you were speaking, but I saw a clip of you online, and

you're very clear and clarified.

And you have a lot of fans in my producing staff as well.

So thank you for coming on.

It's a pleasure to be here.

So

I started with

what you said 15 years ago.

I was living in a queer commune, calling myself Sebastian, spent hours on the message boards angrily defending the queer theory belief that gender is a performance.

Now...

You are being canceled for being honest about the differences between male and female.

Why are you no longer Sebastian?

What happened?

Well, as it it was kind of a it was kind of a thought experiment changing my name to Sebastian.

I wanted to see what it would be like and it turned out that I just didn't really like it very much.

I didn't like it felt it felt like I it felt too big of an ask in the end to say to my friends to say to my family more than anything that I you this name that you've known me by and this person who you always thought I was that's not who I am anymore and I want you to call me something different that just felt like I didn't have the right to ask that and it honestly just made me uncomfortable.

I know that's there are there are people who don't take that, there are a great many more people who don't take that view now, but that was just where I got to with it.

And also I just didn't really want to be a dude.

You know, I kind of felt I wasn't really sure, I wasn't really sure that I wanted to be a woman at the time because

that seemed to come with a whole lot of downsides.

But as it I it was kind of an it was an experiment to see what it felt like.

And then in the end I

backtracked, I walked back Sebastian fairly quickly and went by Sebastian Mary Mary for a while, which I still kind of like.

I mean, Sebastian Mary had a nice feel to it.

Yeah, sure.

And, you know, I wore my hair short and I wore, you know, whatever, whatever clothes I wore.

And I was kind of a,

I was experimental about everything when I was 21, as so many people are, I guess.

But in the end, I fell off the wagon.

I just, I didn't realize it just wasn't making me happy.

And

I don't think I figured that out.

It wasn't like I woke up one day and was like, actually, this all sucks and I'm going to become a reactionary.

It didn't happen that quickly.

It was like

my whole life sort of fell apart in 2008 because the startup I founded came to pieces and it was partly my fault.

And I ended up just I lost my whole circle of friends.

It's like, I don't know if you've ever had a business fail underneath you, but it's like getting divorced.

Oh, yeah.

It really messes with your mind.

Yeah.

But it's the bet when you fail in whatever, it's the only time you eventually look back and say, that's when I really grew.

So if you can make it through.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean, it was a world-changing, just a properly life-changing moment for me because it really threw into relief a lot of the things which I, a lot of the beliefs that I based what I was doing on.

And a lot of those beliefs really were, I guess you would call them woke now, although that wasn't what they were called then.

But I was pretty woke about everything.

And I really kind of followed through on all of it.

You know, I just didn't really want, I didn't really want any hierarchy or any boundaries or any structure to anything, really.

And inevitably, that meant I had a very anarchic, unstructured, unboundary life, which is just not very nice, especially as you get older.

And I began to realize I was lonely and

I was getting older and

I still had no money and I didn't really know where I was going to be living from one year to the next.

And it just wasn't very nice.

And

it was sheer luck, really, that

I remember my grandmother.

gave me some advice.

We were very close.

She was a wonderful, very wise woman, my grandmother.

She'd been a farmer and a doctor and she was pretty tough.

and she looked at me one day when i went to visit her and she said you know what mary i think you should grow your hair and get married and i was like whoa because at the time i wore my hair extremely short and i was living in queer communes and just really a very very very some distance from getting growing my hair and getting married but i think i guess it must have stuck in my mind because as it turned out it was really good advice

as it turns out looking normal gives you a lot more freedom to be whoever you are.

And being married actually, as it turns out, gave me a great, a lot more freedom to be who you are.

So, that is my discovery with

religion when it is understood and put in its proper place.

That, you know, for me, there is my relationship with God, and then there's my religion, which I choose

that has the framework that helps me be a better person.

And for me,

a more

structured system, the better for me, because I have found now

that

freedom really can come from just playing by the rules.

It's a lot easier.

But

some people would say that that's you're selling out to the system.

Well, I don't know.

I think it's just much more than it's very difficult to be creative if you don't have any boundaries.

I mean, I'll give you a very recent example.

It's a very, very tiny example.

You know, there are a whole lot, there are lots of, there are lots of people, particularly women, who are afraid that

if they have kids, they'll end up tied down and they won't be able to do anything self-expressive.

So

I only have one child because I started fairly late.

And I had to work.

It's half term, which is a week of school holidays at the moment here.

And at the beginning of the week, my husband took...

our daughter up to visit the in-laws.

I had to stay here and work and I thought, oh, okay, so I'll get all of my work done in one day and then I'll do whatever the next day or I'll do a whole load of other things.

And as it turned out, I did not get all of my work done in one day.

I did exactly the same amount of work, Glenn, as I would have done if I'd been working during school hours.

I just spent the rest of the time faffing around.

As it turns out,

as it turns out, the boundary, you know, although sometimes I think, ah, I have to, I have to, I'm in the middle of something, I don't want to have to put it down to go and collect my daughter and do one stuff.

But as it turns out, if I don't have that boundary, I don't get any more done.

And

I'm just wandering around feeling bored and lonely and and what and it really took me back to being 25 and having no constraints on my time and just not really getting a whole lot done and it made me realize that actually the the the the constraints which i the beneficial you know healthy life-giving life-affirming and loving constraints that my family imposes on me they're not an they're not an obstacle to my creative work now they're they're they're the they're its basic enabling condition and i can't do anything that i do without without that so mary we have we have And I suppose you could generalize that to a face as well.

You know, you put those constraints on yourself and they allow you to flourish.

I think that's very true.

We have

we see things now, I think, as a choice.

And

when my mom and dad got married in the 1950s, and my mom was, you know, in her 20s and early 20s.

And so when the 60s came around, she was too

old for the burn your bra thing.

She was not of the hippie generation.

but she also didn't want to be a part of the 1950s stay-at-home.

She was very creative,

everything else.

And

she ended up

in suicide and

massive drug abuse because people, doctors used to write prescriptions, oh, you're sad.

Okay, take this, you'll be fine.

And I think that's the way we look at things.

It's either you are, you can do everything a man, you're, you're, you are a man if you want to be,

or you're going to be taking valium at home with the kids and you've got no life except this,

you know,

slavery kind of housewife kind of life.

It's that those are both bogus, aren't they?

Uh-huh.

Well, I mean, I've, I've, I've never met a stay-at-home mum who just spends all of her time like vacuuming and making dinner.

You know,

Those women don't,

if they exist, I've never, maybe they exist, I don't know, Glenn, but I've never met one.

The stay-at-home nuns who I know, they organise groups,

they hang out with one another,

they get stuff done.

I mean, back in the 19th century,

bourgeois housewives were pretty much around the world.

I mean, there's an amazing history.

My great friend Erika Bakiake recently wrote a history of

women's organizing in 19th-century America and just how extensive and how networked and how effective these women were at bringing about social change on a

huge range of important issues.

And a lot of them have, you know, they were issues of faith, or they were issues of temperance, or they were issues of, you know,

looking after the poor or the needy or whatever.

You know, these are women who've got things done, and the fact that they weren't drawing a salary directly for doing it was neither here nor there.

You know, there are a great many more ways to be a part of the

larger social fabric than just kind of turning up in an office and drawing down a salary.

And I think

there's something very limited and

very narrow-minded about

thinking about it in that way.

And I think there's, you know,

it's a tough time now, especially for those women who really do want to be mothers, because

a lot of them end up having to work more than they would like to, because that flexibility just isn't there.

And I can think of a great many women who bite your arm off at the opportunity to be a stay-at-home mum or even just to work a bit more flexible.

And it's, yeah, and we've ended up with less choice in some other ways.

I think also just to not be looked down on.

I mean, I think one of the worst things that

women say,

I'm just a housewife.

I'm just a mom.

What do you mean?

You're just a mom?

What does that mean?

And that's because

we look down on it.

What'd you say?

I'm a stay-at-home mom, and every stay-at-home mom I've ever met, including me, will recognize

you go to a party and somebody asks, so what do you do?

And you say, well, I'm a mum.

And you can see they're already looking over your shoulder for somebody more interesting to talk to.

It has to every stay-at-home mum I've ever met will recognise that.

But I'll tell you something else.

You get it worse from liberals than you do from Conservatives.

You're much more likely

in a relatively conservative circle of people to

have the work that you do acknowledged and respected and responded to in a respectful way than you are amongst progressives, no matter how much lip service they pay to liberalism liberalism and to women having choice.

In fact, the reality is that in terms of that moral hierarchy,

the choice to be a mom is nowhere.

This is the best of the Glenn Beck program.

And don't forget, rate us on iTunes.

Talking to Mary Harrington,

who believes the feminism of freedom and the feminism of care are the twin poles of the women's movement from the mid to late 18th century onward.

She says, feminism of freedom and the feminism of care started really kind of going to war with each other because women were rightly quite conflicted.

We need more freedom of movement.

This new world seems premised on the idea that everyone is a free individual and we can be our own self in the market.

That's what freedom is.

Why can't we have that?

Then, of course, you had the other side because we're women and we're mothers.

We have children.

You have a baby.

You have a six-year-old.

We know what it's like to be needed.

So women argued from that experience of motherhood, it's not so simple.

We need to have this recognized and taken into account.

She says the feminist of freedom won out over the feminism of care when contraception and abortion were legalized.

This is where we get the

cyborg or

transhumanism.

Mary joins us again.

Mary, can you take us through through that part of this?

Sure.

I mean, my argument is essentially that feminism as such ended in the 1960s, and that we should think of the sexual revolution not as the sexual revolution, but the transhumanist revolution.

We are fifty years and more in and counting into the transhumanist revolution.

And that what much is under the banner of feminism now is more we should we should think of it more as a kind of libertarianism of the body, which is to say um a a belief that we should be free to do whatever we want with our bodies and we should be constrained in no way by any any aspect of our bodies including our sex including whether we're born male or female that should not limit us in any way at all yeah i was just talking to a really brilliant uh guy yesterday uh spencer clavin and he said um

uh

trans

people

is really the the beginning of the end because it's going that's all transhumanism you control with technology.

You control what you're doing.

Absolutely.

And that began with the contraceptive pill.

Because if you think about it, the pill was the first medical technology that didn't set out to fix something that was broken.

Like if I've broken my wrist, then I go see a doctor.

The doctor gives me pain meds and spins my arm and I'm better again.

So that assumes like,

but what the pill does is the opposite of that, or at least it's very different to that.

The pill breaks something which is working just fine, which is normal female fertility.

And it does so in the name of personal freedom.

It does so in order to grant women the freedom to have sex without dealing with unexpected pregnancies or undesired pregnancies, I should say.

A pregnancy under those circumstances, if you have sex, you should expect normally to get pregnant.

And

the pill breaks that and it does so in the name of freedom.

And there have been lots of benefits to that.

you know it's it allowed it allowed a huge number of women to to plan their lives in a way which hadn't been easily possible before so lots of women went to college and got jobs.

I mean I participated in public life in a way which was much more difficult previously.

But it also came with

some unexpected costs.

My great friend Louise Perry

has written a great deal about the downsides of the sexual revolution for women.

But one of the unexpected effects of the pill was that

it didn't prevent unexpected pregnancies nearly as much as people thought it would.

Because

although fewer pregnancies were happening relative to the number of people who were having sex, there were so many more people having casual sex because they could, essentially, that the absolute number of unplanned pregnancies went up.

And that created a pressure to legalize abortion.

And I mean, we've been talking about the feminism of freedom and the feminism of care.

And, you know, one,

a bunch of women who wanted to say, women's interests are about our relationships and our bodies and our children and our families.

And another bunch of freedom who were saying women's interests are are about defending our right to do whatever we want to do, just on the same terms as men.

So that's very crudely the two sides of that argument.

And it's very difficult, you know, wherever you stand on abortion, it's very hard to think of a clearer way of saying freedom matters more than care than to say, my freedom is so important that I will defend it even at the cost of a potential human life.

That's totally reliant on my body.

Let me go to

the trans

argument that

is happening all over the world right now.

And I think we are

ahead of you or behind you, I guess, because I think you guys are actually starting to come out of this already.

And, you know, TERFs are just a horrible thing.

However, it seems as though, and I think this really is in large part due to you, that the TERFs are winning in Great Britain.

Is that true?

And what did you do to change the tide over there that America can do?

Well,

I mean, it depends.

We've definitely we've had some successes.

That's definitely true.

I'm a long way from declaring it a victory.

I think I'd be a little bit like George Bush when he was standing there on that ship saying, saying, we won, we won, guys, we can all go home.

I mean, it's a little it's it's too early to say that we've won, and we really are just into the foothills of something here.

But if there's if there's something that the Turfs did, I mean, the the the British situation is very different to the American one anyway, because culturally, we're just kind of, I think we're just more pessimistic in Britain about

being who you want to be.

You know,

that's pretty baked into the American way of looking at things, that people should be able to be who they want to be.

Correct.

And so I can see, like,

that plugs fairly obviously into what's going on with the trans thing.

Like, why shouldn't these people be who they want to be, even if that means imagining their bodies are meat Legos and they can rearrange them as they want?

And I think Brits are just a little bit more pessimistic about that.

We're also better organised because we had Mumsnet, which is a discussion forum for months.

And

a lot of the very early organising to push back against gender ideology began on Mumsnet and has since spun out into campaigning institutions.

And I think

if there have been concrete successes in Britain, it's been in realizing that actually where the battle is fought

is not in the media culture culture war.

That stuff is noisy, but it doesn't really do very much.

It doesn't move the needle.

And actually what you need to do is build institutions and you need to lean on the levers of power,

which are NGOs these days.

Most real power flows through NGOs and happens prior to voting in the world as it is now.

And I think in as much, I mean, I don't track American politics super closely, but

where things cross my radar that look as though they're moving the needle in a similar way, it's, for example, the Mums for Liberty movement on school choice,

which which to me has some of the same character I mean, with with American characteristics and much more American style,

slightly different priorities.

But I see that as being, you know,

they're getting their members on school boards and

they're leaning on the actual levers of power.

They aren't just writing angry think pieces and then looking surprised when nothing changes.

They're they're showing up and they're and they're doing politics.

And as a result, they're, you know, they it's it's not

you know they're moving the needle.

And I guess that's how it has to work.

You know, if you're going to, if you want to affect changing, you have to show up.

Are you.

You have to show up where it matters.

We are seeing things, you know, gender mutilation on children and everything else.

And we are behind you on.

You are having more success of stopping that over in Great Britain than we are.

But people are waking up.

But it is, it's absolute evil is what is happening right now.

Are you

optimistic or pessimistic here on how this all works out?

Are we in for a very long battle or we lose?

It's going to be a bumpy ride, I think.

It's going to be a bumpy ride.

I think it's going to be a bit of both, to be honest.

I think the Turfs will win on

pediatric gender.

I think a friend of mine calls it

genital lobotomies.

I think that will stop because the negative side effects are so obvious, and sooner or later, there's just going to be such a cascade of losses that it's going to, and so many, you know,

the number of brutalized adults who just, who are brutalized, angry young adults will just get so big that it will stop.

But I think that

if you view the gender movement as a kind of spearhead for a wider transhumanist, you know, the onward march of biotech into our bodies,

I think

if we imagine that

if we claim victory just because they stopped doing gender lobotomies on children, then we're not paying attention because

the stuff which is coming down the line is in vitro gametogenesis and

three parent embryos.

And there are experimental surgeries which splice people with bits of animal and genetically engineering pigs so that they can grow human organs for the transplant industry and a whole bunch of other stuff.

It just gets more and more baroque and more and more disturbing.

And that's, yeah.

And it's very easy to argue the conservative case against creating monsters, but it's very much harder to argue the conservative case against creating supermen.

And I think that's an argument which we haven't even begun to have yet, and people are already trying to do it.

Mary, thank you so much for everything.

Say hi to Sebastian if you ever see him.

It's such a pleasure talking to you.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you.

Mary Harrington, the book that she wrote is Feminism Against Progress,

And she is a contributing editor for

Unheard.

And you can follow her at reactionaryfeminist.com.

You're listening to the best of the Glenn Beck program.

You know, there's a story out today.

It's in our free show prep at Glenn Beck.com

about

why this Bud Light thing is really working.

And that's because people are buying it

at the bars.

And if

you ask for a Bud Light in some of these bars, people are just harassing you.

They're They're like, oh, really?

And that's really how you do it.

You just don't do that with your wife at Target.

Well, if you want to stay married, you certainly don't do that.

Right.

If you don't want to stay married, do it a lot.

A lot.

Yeah, the quote from Marina Cafe in Great Kills on Staten Island.

And they said, not only did the sales of Bud Light tank two months ago, but the rare partakers of the product these days find themselves reamed by fellow patrons.

Again, like, you want to go in there and enjoy a beer.

Even if you like Bud Light, you just don't want to get in there.

It's just so much easier, though.

Like, my wife came home the other day, and I don't know, she needed to buy a blouse for my daughter and hamburger meat and a candle.

I don't know.

And she was like, I wasn't running to three stores today.

I don't have time.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I just think this is poor planning.

You knew you needed that candle a long time ago, sister.

You're going on vacation.

What do you need a candle for?

When you're gone, I'm romancing somebody.

Anyway,

so the,

it's just hard because that just breaks your day up.

And you've got it.

It's Bud Light is easy.

Pull that one or pull that one.

Yeah.

I don't want that one.

Or a glass of that.

The easy substitute is such a key part of this.

Yeah, it is.

And I think, too, there's just that level of, you know,

you have to make it so you're not ruining your own life because of their bad decisions.

And that's tough to do.

Let me ask you, do you think this is why Hispanics are becoming white supremacists?

Are they?

Oh, yeah.

Well, the rise of Latino white supremacy, it's, I mean, it's right here in black and white.

What is this?

Vanity Fair?

Oh, wow.

Oh, the New Yorker, even better.

They're smarter.

They have cartoons you don't, nobody understands.

Even the people who draw them don't understand them.

Right.

So they've got to be right.

And maybe it's because,

you know, they go for that high thread count sheet and they can't get them at Target anymore.

So they're like, where are we going to go?

And I don't know.

So the high thread counts.

for the clan's outfits.

Well, they might not, might not really agree with everything, but they want the sheets.

Okay.

So it's not an ideological affinity to the clan.

It's the discomfort of nice thread counts.

I don't know.

I just know that the New Yorker has a whole piece out

about how we are now.

you know, seeing the rise of Hispanic white supremacy.

I noticed that they call Hispanics

brown, which I really hate that term.

I don't know why.

Brown peoples, and they'll call them brown peoples as if black and brown, and then they'll call brown peoples people of color.

All these really weird colors in my face.

It's just pink, pink.

Right, everyone has it.

Everyone's got some color.

No one's actually white.

I don't know if anyone's noticed this.

Maybe a few exceptions.

But

I always find this to be interesting: is that when they want to claim Hispanics as their own, they're people of color, but now they can also be white and white supremacists, which are still

being colorful.

Right.

They're no longer VOCs at that point.

No, because they're not agreeing.

And there are some people that they have found that are, you know, have racist Nazi tattoos.

Now, I just don't understand that.

I mean, I think this might be a case of

you're either really stupid if you're just i want to get a nazi tattoo and you're any other color than pig pink okay because nazis don't like color fact the ideal color is like

like spooky ass white with blue eyes okay the kinds that you like look at and like i think they're half wolf that's the ideal okay i guess and uh and you're not you're not that so they're gonna figure that out at some point

So I don't know how that works I mean, I guess you could be a a non white

a non-white white supremacist if what you're if you're are you just relating this to fascism generally like you so here's what they're here's what they're saying this this article is crazy but they say um they say that look the Hispanics know that they have to be more white and act more white if they want to be successful.

And so they're just acting white and they're just saying, hey,

we want to be white so badly and be accepted by the white people that we'll join the Klan.

I got news for you, man.

You're wearing a sheet.

A lot of white people are not going to like you.

The overwhelming majority are going to think you're insane.

Yeah, right.

Just so you know.

Right.

And not because do you not look in the mirror or do you not listen at meetings?

Because

that's nuts.

Yeah.

But whether whether you're white or black or any other color, your acceptance and membership in the KKK automatically makes you insane.

Yeah, I agree.

But I tell you, they're pushing it.

They are pushing it.

These Hispanics are pushing white supremacy like, oh, crazy.

Stu.

How do we know?

Not just because of Target.

Just the New Yorker article?

No.

Well, you know, I'm a big fan of

Maria and Teresa.

Yeah, the Patella Novella.

Yo, they're they're great.

I watch them all the time.

Do you?

Yeah, I do.

I do.

I don't think I do.

I love them.

But I was watching the other day, and I was watching Teresa, and

there was a scene with Teresa and Pablo, and all of a sudden they start talking about

white supremacy.

And I'm like, wait a minute, what?

And Teresa was not happy.

Sorry.

Teresa was not happy about it.

I didn't know you spoke Spanish.

Hmm?

I didn't even know you spoke Spanish.

How do you...

Well, may I?

Because

I brought the clip in.

Okay.

And I'll translate it for you.

Do you speak Spanish?

I don't know.

Okay, good.

So let me just

translate what happened on Teresa.

Okay.

Teresa just found Pablo wandering the streets.

Stop, stop, stop, not yet.

Teresa is, I'm trying to set this up.

This is complex stuff.

Sure.

Teresa just found Pablo wandering the streets of Mexico City.

Wow, you do that very well.

I think you do.

You speak Spanish.

Yeah, I do.

I do.

I do.

I do.

And she realizes something's wrong with Pablo.

Okay?

Now, go ahead.

What is wrong with you, Pablo?

You look like you've seen a ghost.

I know what it is.

I saw you last night walking around town with those angry-looking men wearing bed sheets and carrying crosses.

We let crosses at midnight, Teresa.

Have you never heard of the Ku Klux Klan?

See, I have,

but it doesn't really make any sense to me.

They're white supremacists.

Why would they

accept a Hispanic man like you?

They know you're not white, don't they?

You're not white.

They know I

love the white race, Teresa.

What?

Like Hitler.

Like Hitler, what do you mean?

Well, he was a brunette,

but he knew blondes were better.

So just like him, I may be Hispanic,

but I wish I was white.

Right?

See, see, see, see?

Yes, it's true, I believe that, but why would you join those blanket-wearing men?

They're freaks.

Teresa,

we are not freaks.

The clan is so old-fashioned.

No,

you're better than that.

Any Hispanic white supremacist worth his salt would only join the Patriot Front.

Their uniforms are actually stylish,

and they're definitely not fed.

I guess I was wrong about you, Pablo.

You will never be white.

Never be white.

Wow, that was dramatic.

Yeah, it was crazy.

And it just spilled out my living room the other day.

Wow.

Yeah.

See, I didn't know.

And

I say, no, I don't speak Spanish, but like, wouldn't the name Hitler just translate as Hitler?

I didn't hear Hitler.

No, no, no, not in Spanish.

Spanish is very strange.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

You know, it's like C.

And yes.

Totally different.

No, well, I know.

Okay.

I know that's how language works in translation, but like names usually stay the same.

Not in Mexico.

Okay.

A lot of them change their names.

A lot of them do.

Well, I mean, that did explain the phenomenon of white supremacist Hispanics.

That's right.

And they're pushing it hard.

They're pushing it hard.

They really are.

You know, that damn telemundo.

Damn them.

Well, there it is.

You've got the truth finally.

You need to do a new podcast on just.

I'm going to do it.

You know, like they did those succession recaps.

The what?

You know, like succession, the show that just ended.

They do like a daily or weekly podcast on reviewing what happened.

You could do that for these telenovelas

in Spanish.

We could do that.

Yeah.

We could do that.

Would you like me to?

I get that.

Sure.

Yeah, we'll just tape a few episodes and then I'll come and translate them.

Will you be able to keep up with it on your vacation?

Will you still watch them?

You don't want to miss any developments.

Oh,

I can watch those things, you know, all the time.

Okay.

All the time.

Good.

Especially Maria.

Maria.

Maria.

Maria.

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