Ep 161 | How Christianity Was INFILTRATED by Woke Politics | Voddie Baucham | The Glenn Beck Podcast

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Well, their hatred is nothing new.

The elites have always hated, despised really Christianity.

All through the Gospels,

Jesus narrowly escapes being lynched as the Pharisees, the elites, chased him.

He told them, he didn't come to call the righteous, he came to call the sinners, the blind, the disabled, the poor, the possessed.

Now, anyone who actually hates Christianity actually really, I think, hates them as well, the blind, the disabled, the the poor, and the oppressed.

They seem to enslave them.

Give them.

Anyway, if you want proof, look at how they attack anyone who disagrees with the elites.

Chance of Black Lives Matter, well, that evaporates once a black person tells the world that they're a Republican, right?

Believe all women unless they're conservative.

Everything they claim,

everything they say, oh, we believe in this so much, is a distraction so that you won't notice what they're really up to.

But as Paul writes in Romans,

professing to be wise, they became fools.

Doesn't it seem like our experts are foolish right now?

Today's guest knows what they're really up to.

He's a former pastor.

He is an author, a professor, and current dean of theology at African Christian University in Zambia.

I've been waiting to meet this guy for a couple of years now.

He happens to be in the States for a few days, and he stopped in.

He's a spiritual man, a community leader, an academic, a Bible expert, and a man who strives to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Although, he carries a pretty big stick as well.

He's written books and articles detailing the complicated realities of a world that is increasingly dangerous for Christians.

Today, on the Glen Beck podcast, I am excited to introduce you to Dr.

Vodi Bachman Jr.

Before we get to Vodi, I want to talk to you a little bit about Relief Factor.

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I find myself

thinking thoughts I've never thought before.

Yeah.

And

wondering,

where are we in time?

Where are we?

As a people, as a nation.

Yeah.

You know, I tell you one thing, we're in trouble.

I got that.

I know that.

I know that.

I know that we're in trouble.

I know that there are things happening in the midst of our society that, you know, if if you look at Romans chapter 1 or if you look at history, these are the kind of things that happen

toward the end of

a society's lifespan, if you will.

And I think unless things change dramatically,

that what we're going to see is going to be catastrophic.

I mean,

I think on the other hand, that there are some unique aspects of American culture that

kind of give us a reprieve.

I think, you know, our federalist system, the fact that there are 50 states,

the fact that, and I think COVID showed us that, right?

There wasn't one response to COVID in America, right?

Not everybody had the same experience.

I think,

you know,

we see an end to Roe v.

Wade, and now what happens?

Things go to the states, and these different states look very different in their response.

So I think because of that, you know,

but that doesn't give us a rep.

I will be really, truly heartened

that it's not a delay tactic.

Some things like that, nice delays,

buy us more time.

But until we, I mean, I hate to sound like a preacher, but until we

recognize, crap, we have gone way astray, way astray.

I can't hear sheep.

There's no sheep for miles around.

We've really gone astray.

And

we

then ask for forgiveness.

His protection

has to come off of us

looking at the things that are happening in our society.

But Glenn, I would say it already has.

I would say that's why we're seeing what we're seeing.

But I don't think we're judgment.

I'm not sure if it's fully withdrawn.

We're at the beginning.

I think.

Yeah, this is judgment.

We're at the beginning of that.

Yeah, this is judgment.

We're experiencing judgment.

And when you experience judgment, you're right.

The response is to repent.

And,

you know, I'm afraid that we're not seeing much of that.

We're not seeing any humility.

We're not seeing humility.

We're not seeing repentance.

We're not seeing brokenness.

We will.

Yeah.

I think of Yoda.

You will.

I was.

Well,

let me go here.

I feel like we're battling evil.

We are not, I keep saying on the air, it's not Republicans versus Democrats.

It's not.

It is elites versus the people, but it's not really even that.

It is evil against good.

Can you give, can you flesh that out?

Yeah, I mean, I think the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians chapter 10, he says, though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh.

And I think it's important for us to keep that in mind, that

we are battling.

What he talks about in Ephesians chapter 2 is the prince of the power of the air, right?

That spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

This is a spiritual battle.

It's always been a spiritual battle.

And I think that we're seeing that more clearly.

You know, go back to Roe v.

Wade.

I talked about that earlier.

What's interesting about that is

all of a sudden, when that happened,

the gloves came off.

Oh, yeah.

You know?

And people were just essentially saying,

I can't believe we're not going to be allowed to kill babies anymore.

I know.

You know?

I know.

You know, I think it's been, in some ways, it's been a real blessing.

You know, if Donald Trump would have won again, I don't know if all of this would have been fully seen.

You know what I mean?

But now that things,

now that things are progressing as quickly as they are, you're hearing things like, yeah, we should let the baby die if we wanted to abort.

Then if he's born alive, then he should die.

Crazy things that we all knew, that men can have a baby.

Yeah.

That we know these things aren't true.

That pedophilia is somehow okay.

Because we're minor attracted persons.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, and I feel like saying, look,

we all knew, we all knew

10 years ago that stuff's crazy.

If I would have said it, that you're going to be arguing for it, you would have called me insane.

And now you're arguing, I didn't change.

What happened to you?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

I think it's happening in many areas across the board.

And unfortunately, what happens is we get numb to it.

You know, it's kind of like the frog in the kettle, right?

We get numb to it.

And, for example, we're not talking about same-sex marriage anymore, right?

I mean, we were,

but now,

you know, because of all of these other things that are are happening down the road,

I said on the air when we were debating sex, same-sex marriage, to me, as more of a rights person, I don't, what do you do in your life?

Do not force my church to do what you want.

And I won't force your church to do what you want.

You know what I mean?

Or what I want.

But I said.

This opens up the door.

You can't say man and a woman and then not say man, woman, woman or woman, woman, woman.

Right.

Everything is going to change and you will see pedophilia will start to be normalized.

And they said, how dare you ever say that?

Right, right.

No, and they would say, no, that's not what we're arguing for.

Yes.

That's, you know, that whole slippery slope argument, that's not what we're arguing for.

We're just arguing for this, not that.

But the implications are clear.

And there was a case in New York recently

where I think there was a polyamorous triad.

Three guys.

Right.

Three guys.

The polyamorous triad.

Yeah, you know the case.

And the judge is essentially pointing to the dissent in Obergefeld and saying the descent is right, right?

When you get rid of the male-female requirement, the numerosity requirement makes no sense.

Yep.

So essentially, they're saying that slippery slope that you were arguing, that we we said was an overreaction.

It wasn't really an overreaction.

And we're there now.

And for a long time in this movement, people have been trying to get rid of age of consent laws.

So

we get rid of age of consent laws, we get rid of the numerosity requirement, and all of a sudden,

marriage means absolutely nothing.

And the foundation of civilization, right,

is

gone.

Yeah.

I mean,

you know, when you look at,

there's a lot of things you can look at and say,

that's evil.

I can see how you get there or, you know, maybe not.

But the things that are happening with children, that is the one thing that,

you know, Christ wasn't really a fire and brimstone kind of guy, but when it came to harming his little ones, better to have a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown into the deepest part of the sea.

Right.

So how is it so many people are

just duped?

Well, but listen, okay, we talk about the whole idea of the millstone, but don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah, right?

So we've done this before.

We've come up to an issue that from a biblical perspective and from an historical perspective was something something that was absolutely unthinkable,

right?

And

we crossed that line.

And now, you know, as we sit here, we're having a conversation about another line that we think should never even be approached, let alone crossed.

But what history tells us is it's only a matter of time before we get to that one.

Is it exciting to live at this time?

Or is it what is it?

My father died, and I thought, you know,

he was too young to serve in World War II.

He tried to join the Marines in Korea, but he had flat feet, so he couldn't go.

You know, it was a civil rights thing, but he lived up in Seattle.

And, you know,

he really didn't have any time where he was pushed up against the wall by society or anything, you know.

And I don't know if you can ever really truly be who you are meant to be until there's a force that is pushing against you.

Yeah.

So is it a good thing to live?

You know, it is.

First of all, you know, if we believe

in a sovereign God and if we believe in his providence, then we're living exactly when and where we're supposed to be living.

So that's number one.

And secondly,

I agree with you.

It's not until we face pressure and opposition that we actually see what we really believe and what we're really made of.

And so,

you know, these are

frightening times.

Terrifying.

But at the same time,

they ought to be hope-filled times for those of us

who live with that kind of hope.

I can't remember his name.

Do you remember the guy?

He went blind.

He was a minister.

He was in one of the concentration camps and

he was a pastor and he was happy and everybody in his barracks was happy.

And so they said,

you got to beat him down.

And they put him underneath the barracks.

They didn't feed him.

He went blind, but he was still singing in the end, singing until they shot him in the head finally.

Same thing with Bonhoeffer.

He thanked his executioner.

Boy, I really want to get get there.

I don't know how to get there.

How do you get there?

You know, only by God's grace.

I don't think that's something that

any of us

is necessarily prepared for until the time comes.

And,

you know, of course, we hope and pray that the time doesn't come.

But

God gives us grace for whatever he calls us to.

I was reading in the New York Times this week that a partial birth abortion doesn't exist.

Yeah, it's apparently just a Republican talking point.

Who knew?

Huh?

Really?

And saying that an abortion where they cut the baby's limbs off and stuff, that's just a pejorative.

Oh, I thought it was a baby that you were cutting out.

Look,

life is life.

And

I don't want to, I mean, unless it's a bug, I really don't want to take life.

I don't.

Especially human life.

Kind of important things.

Good safety tip.

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I was at a restaurant the other night.

And somebody came in and just gave me the dirtiest look.

And I'm like, okay, there you are.

And then

I looked around the restaurant and I saw all these young people, all these people just out doing their thing.

Don't know how many of them even really know what's going on.

Yeah.

And I began to think how quickly they could be turned because there's not going to be anybody on the sidelines.

You can't sit on the sidelines now, can you?

No, neutrality is not an option.

Yeah.

So you have

the

burden of Ezekiel on your shoulders.

How do you wake people?

How do we wake people up?

Boy.

You know, ultimately, that's not something that we can even do.

All we can do is be faithful.

And all we can do is continue to beat the drum, right?

All we can do is continue to warn people.

All we can do is, you know, continue to try to be the watchman on the wall.

I read something that you wrote, and it was about not using the name, you know, not

associate, not associating your good works with the name.

And

I thought of, unfortunately, me a lot of times.

I

try to look for language that is uniting.

And that a lot has become sin, don't say that word, sacrifice, don't say that word judgment don't say i mean you really are out as somebody who believes in god you're out of language how important it is is it to use

the language

but here's what's interesting glenn

we we feel like that or we've felt like that but now all of a sudden the other side has absolutely no problem using that language they have no problem.

I mean, you know, Gavin Newsom puts Bible verses on billboards advertising for people to come to California to slaughter their babies, right?

When, you know, Madam Vice President wanted to encourage everybody to get the jab,

she

no problem quoting scripture in order to do that, right?

The president has no problem quoting scripture.

And the press doesn't run around with their hair on fire if you do it on the left.

Because

I think they think that's just pandering.

They really do.

They think, well, they're just saying that.

They don't believe it.

They don't believe it.

They totally believe it.

Yeah, right.

You know, somebody believes what they're actually saying.

Then it's a problem.

Now all of a sudden they run around with their hair on fire.

So,

you know,

I think it's important.

for us to be open and honest about

what we believe and where we're coming from and unashamed about what we believe and where we're coming from, you know,

especially when, and I'm, I'm, you know, all this, this talk about, you know, Christian nationalism, you know, this, ooh,

Christian.

Have you ever heard a preacher preach any of that nonsense?

Well, actually, I have.

Have you?

Unfortunately, you know, I have.

Is it prominent?

But no, no, but there, but there, there are people who do that.

There are people on the fringes who do that.

But,

you know, the the problem with people who are running away from it is that what these people are running away from is our foundations right they're they're they're trying to act like

America has always been this secular republic that never acknowledged God never not true right and and

the danger in that is we are the freest, most prosperous, most tolerant,

right?

Yeah.

That's who we've been since our founding because

of the foundations upon which we're built, right?

This is the place where, you know,

Jews and

Catholic, Mormon,

I mean, everybody, right?

This is the place where people can have that kind of liberty.

Now, you and I know, because we've been to other parts of the world, that that does not exist.

Where does it exist?

In the Christian West, that's where it exists.

And so the great irony is that when we run away from that,

we're running away from the very thing that has given us the freedoms that we enjoy.

So let me ask you: is

Christianity seems to be diminishing quickly in the West?

The numbers are quickly diminishing.

And

in some ways, I wonder how much our churches are responsible.

Some have made it so easy to be a Christian that you don't really have to question anything except other people.

You know what I mean?

Or they've made it about money and success.

And

it's not about principles.

And I don't see,

I I mean,

I don't like when preachers get into politics, but I'm not talking about politics.

We are so far beyond politics.

We are in basic bedrock principles.

Yeah.

And they're afraid to do it.

Yeah.

Well,

this is where I go back to

the unique nature of the American landscape.

And the fact of the matter is,

most of the things that go by the name church

are not.

Right.

Right.

But there's a remnant.

And unfortunately, most of those people who are being faithful and who are being consistent

are tucked away in places where you don't necessarily know their name.

And as a result of that, it sort of looks like

everybody's

sold the farm and everybody's gone astray.

Doesn't that happen?

Awakenings don't happen in the church usually.

They happen outside of the church, or at least the big power structure of the church, do they not?

They start with individuals.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I see what you're saying.

Yeah, outside the power structure and start with individuals

and really, you know, kind of go, you know, beyond the walls,

sort of by definition.

Right.

Yeah, absolutely.

And

yeah, the interesting thing, though, is like, like right now,

we need awakening inside as much as, if not more, than outside.

You know, over these last couple of years, it's been shocking

to see the number of people who have been willing to embrace ideologies that are not just unbiblical, but anti-biblical.

Yeah.

You know?

It's changed.

It used to be, you used to be able to say, well, I can see if you're really misguided, how you think that way.

Now it's like, no, you're not.

This is antichrist stuff.

Not the antichrist, but this is antichrist.

This is opposite of what the Bible would teach.

So it's not like we've decayed and are kind of sloppy on it.

No, no, no.

We've decayed to a point to where there's a side standing up going, all of that is evil.

Good is evil and evil is good.

Yeah.

And I think part of that is

because

we were kind of lulled into it.

I mean, think about movies and television and the portrayal of Christianity, right?

If there's a positive portrayal of Christianity in the movies or on television, it's either either somebody who's a political leftist, right?

It's the minister or the priest who's out there fighting for social justice.

Or it's the person who's running a soup kitchen, right?

You know, or it's the person who's, you know, running an orphanage.

Or it's the only positive pictures of Christianity are those pictures that are social gospel pictures, right?

And if anybody is,

you know,

in any way, you know, conservative or anything else, then those are the images of Christianity that are

basically the Christian Taliban, you know, if you will.

And I think in many instances,

Christians decided, no, you know, we want to be thought well of.

So we've emphasized, you know, those

social issues and social aspects.

But Christ would have us do those things.

So shouldn't those two sides be the same coin?

Yeah, but

if you do those without the gospel.

Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

That's my point.

Okay, yeah.

Is that those are the only things

that we're seeing.

Sure.

And we see those things because of, you know, the sort of universal brotherhood of man sort of ideas, right?

Nothing connected to Christ and the gospels, right?

Nothing connected to this idea of sin and redemption.

Nothing created, you know, nothing that gets you to, you know, here's our biblical worldview and this is our response because of our biblical worldview.

Just this sort of, there's a universal brotherhood of man.

There's a group of people out there who are good people.

And they're good people because they do these sorts of of social things.

Correct.

Right.

And the Christians who join the ranks of these good people and do these good social things are good people, not because they're Christians, but in spite of the fact that they are Christians, because they've joined this group over here that does these good things.

And I think what has happened is there are a lot of people who sort of bought into that.

Yeah.

And that's the face that they want to show.

Because the new Christ is one of just do good things.

Listen.

Just be good.

The 11th commandment is, thou shalt be nice, and we don't believe the other 10.

It is.

It is.

Talk to me a little bit about the, you talked a little bit about the church.

You're a Southern Baptist.

You were.

You almost became the head of the Southern Baptist.

Not quite, but

you were, I don't think the votes were pretty close.

And that's not to disparage the other man or anything, but

what happened?

Why were you

standing up?

Yeah, there was a couple of things that happened there.

And first,

I was asked to

allow my name to be put forward as president of the Southern Maps Convention.

And even

before

I had

processed that, you know, agreed to it or whatever,

the news kind of leaked.

So

the, you know,

left-wing progressives within and without the Southern Maps Convention just went on the attack.

Oh, I bet they did.

And

it was brutal.

I mean, it really was.

Attacks on me, attacks on my family, attacks, it just, it was bad.

And I hadn't even, you know,

my hat wasn't in the ring.

But just because it was rumored,

and then what happened is some of the powers that be, you know, went, you know, deep into the books and the bylaws.

And, you know, they said, well, technically, you know, because this guy lives outside the country and because he's a member of a church that's outside the country, technically, he's not eligible.

He's not eligible to even put his hat in the ring.

And so

I thought your hat was in the ring.

No, so what happened was,

you know, a group of the brethren who had asked me to put my hat in the ring.

And we basically said, okay, fine, you can't do that.

But there's another position, right?

President of the SBC Pastors Conference, which, again, there's a whole nother story about, you know, why that would have been significant.

And so myself and another brother, Tom Haskell, Tom Haskell accepted a nomination as president of the convention.

I accepted a nomination as president of the pastors conference really to sort of,

you know, run, you know, with him.

Of course, we were in Anaheim.

And a little inside baseball here, the further the convention meeting is away from the South,

the more to the left

tends to be.

So, you know,

we didn't have much of a shot going to Anaheim, but

both of us

were willing to do that because

we feel like it's almost like a last-ditch effort.

It's almost like if this thing doesn't turn around, kind of like what we were saying about, you know, America, if this thing doesn't turn around, we're in trouble.

So we both

allowed ourselves to

be subjected to that

for those purposes.

And neither one of us ended up

winning those races.

Because your denomination is not alone.

It is infiltrated.

Somebody asked me today, how did it even get into the churches?

Liberation theology, I'm guessing.

Is that how at first?

How did this perverse

anti-Christian kind of message or anti-Christ sort of message

get in?

I think a number of things.

And you're talking about, do you like the whole social justice,

all this other stuff?

I think for many social, for many Southern Baptists, let me say two things.

Number one,

the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptist churches

are not there.

They're just not.

I think

what's crazy is

our government is there.

The vast majority of Americans are not there.

But that disconnect between the two

is dangerous.

It's absolutely dangerous.

But I think what

led people to even

entertain this is the subtlety, right?

Social justice.

I mean,

if you don't know what that means and you're Christian, you're like, well,

yeah,

right?

Anti-racism.

Of course, right?

You know, and so I

can't tell you how many people I've had.

Social justice.

Yeah.

I've had so many conversations with that and say, yeah, the label sounds good, just like the Inflation Reduction Act.

It sounds good.

That's not what it is.

It's really good.

Inflation Reduction Act.

Well, what does it do?

Not that.

Yeah, it causes more inflation.

Yeah, so I think for a lot of people, right,

again,

when you're talking about people who love the Lord, and who love their fellow man, right?

And they see people in pain, right?

And

despair and anguish.

And people are saying, you know, there's this injustice out there.

And we need to be about social justice and racial justice and anti-racism.

And da-da-da-da.

I think there is a tendency for folks to say,

well, yes, you know?

And it's not only until later.

I was talking to somebody, I guess the day before yesterday, who was

in Denton and

a college student, and they were out and

there was a Black Lives Matter march.

And so I think he was with his sister or somebody.

And people were like, Black Lives Matter and they're marching and this and that and the other.

And his sister's like, you want to join them?

And he goes, yeah, I think we should.

And he said,

they marched for a little while.

And all of a sudden, they realized, you know what, this might not be what we, this might not be what we thought it was.

And I think that there are a lot of people who, on a, you know, broader scale had that experience.

And I think they began to use the terminology.

They began to perhaps even, you know, try to get involved.

And then slowly but surely, the masks came off

and they realized that this is not what we thought it was.

And I think even more significantly than that, the premise

was wrong.

So people always, for me, when people start talking about, you know, racial justice and this justice,

I say, okay, let's back up.

And tell me how you're defining injustice,

right?

And then when they say, well, we're defining injustice as, you know, disparate outcomes, right?

We're not saying that there's, you know, nobody's saying, hey, there's a lunch counter over there that's saying that people who look like this or belong to that, they can't come to the lunch counter, right?

Because you and I both know if that's the case, then we posse up and we go,

right?

We go with you.

They're not saying that.

They're saying, no, no, no, no, no.

There's these disparate outcomes, right?

And these outcomes only exist

because of the racism that's baked into the system.

And so we've got to go and deconstruct this and fix these disparate outcomes.

I call it chasing ghosts, right?

Yeah.

And so, you know,

so that's what I want to know.

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Text Glenn to 66866.

That's Glenn, G-L-E-N-N to 66866.

Most of these Marxist things

are

really the same, aren't they?

They're just, they're all about

tear you apart from your family, tear you apart from your own self-worth.

Yeah.

Tear you apart from

any kind of religious belief that teaches you that you are unique and special special and, you know, that winning isn't, that's not justice.

Justice isn't found in that stuff.

Aren't they all pretty much based on just the destruction of the individual?

At the end of the day, they're based on power, right?

And it's ironic because, you know, what they do is they set up this paradigm.

And this paradigm says, you know, everything is about power dynamics.

And there are these people who have power, and they set up the system in order to maintain that power.

And they oppress people, you know, who don't have power.

And then, of course, therefore

tear them down and give us power.

Correct.

Right.

Because

we'll handle it the right way.

Right.

We won't be like them.

And so essentially, it's all about power.

So you talked about, for example, you know, the family

and the church.

And

why are the family and the church, for example, enemies to the Marxist?

Because

if you have a family that is raising you in the nurture and administration of the Lord, right, Ephesians 6, 4, if you have a church.

that is proclaiming, you know,

law and gospel and pointing you to faith in Christ and developing, you know, biblical worldview.

If these things are happening in your life, then Marxism's not going to be able to get its hooks in you like it can if we can divorce you from your family and divorce you from your church.

It's a cult.

That's exactly what a cult does.

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

And so that's why, because it's all about power and it's all about

removing those things that are a threat to that power.

I think it's important to.

Which, again,

remember Black Lives Matter on their website before

they changed it, right?

Destruction of the nuclear family.

I know.

Yes.

I know.

But it's power.

It's their power.

Yes.

By disempowering you or anyone else that they don't select.

Yes.

It takes, I mean,

the World Economic Forum has been talking about ESG and all of this crap.

And

their goal, they say, is by 2030, you will own nothing and you will be happy.

I don't think so.

But I do think they could get us to a place to where we own nothing.

But it has to be destroy it.

You can't take that.

You don't have to destroy it.

You just have to basically,

you know,

give it to the state.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You have to take it or destroy it.

You destroy the individual's ability to maintain or have or any of that.

I think I said in some of our discussions before that I'm telling people that

the three most important books right now are the Bible.

1984 and Animal Farm.

It is.

It is.

It's just, it's crazy.

We're seeing it.

We're watching it right now.

We're watching the rules on the wall be changed

from day to day.

And again, we're watching those people who, on the one hand, talk about despising,

you know, power and power dynamics, but do everything that they can to accumulate power for themselves.

Talk to me a little bit about,

well, first of all, do the Southern Baptists, do they believe in, do you believe in

the rapture?

well

some southern baptists do some southern baptists don't there's 47 000 southern baptist churches and

um

you know when you start talking about eschatology right and and and end times there's different groups and different camps yeah um and so that's not an area uh where southern baptists um

rule one way or another yeah yeah yeah is yeah i so want this to be true because i have a lot of southern baptist friends and they're like yeah, Christ is coming.

And I'm like, oh, I hope you're true.

I hope that he takes me too.

But

I worry about some of my friends because people have, I mean, I personally think we're living in the latter days, but they've been thinking about that.

The apostles thought that.

And if you don't do the things you're supposed to, if you're just like, the bus is going to come pick me up before it happens, if the bus doesn't show up,

you're in trouble.

You're in trouble.

Yeah.

So

talk to me a little bit about.

I just, I keep coming back to this with you.

I feel like

teach us how to prepare, how to be obedient.

What the important obedience and endurance, I said to my kids when they were young.

That's what life is really all about, obedience and endurance.

And they were like, dad, you make it sound like life's a drag.

And I'm like, if you have those two things down it's not right if you don't recognize that right it's going to be a hell show right yeah you know i was talking about um second corinthians 10 earlier and you know

if you continue on in that that that first paragraph there in that chapter you get to this two-pronged approach right and it's you know

We destroy every argument and lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of Christ, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ.

That's what we have to do.

That's how we prepare.

And I like to talk about those in reverse.

Number one, take every thought captive to obey Christ.

And one of the major,

one of the major problems that we have is that people have not taken every thought captive.

In other words, they have this kind of bifurcated view of life.

And they say, over here

is God, and over here is Jesus and over here is salvation and over here is church, right?

And here's that spiritual part of my life.

And then over here is politics and economics and, you know, all these other things.

And so we're not bringing this under this umbrella.

And so we don't have a full-orbed biblical theological understanding of civics, for example.

So

I knew you're a history guy, right?

So if we look, you know,

pietism, you know, takes hold.

Pietism is the idea that basically, you know, we're just here to be religious people in church, not involved in that secular world or, you know, whatever, right?

Liberalism,

let's say, you know, again, we're back in the 1920s, 30s, you know.

Liberalism takes hold and the fundamentalists respond.

J.

Gresham Machin and so on and so forth.

Now fundamentalism is a, you know, it's a pejorative, right?

But when I say fundamentalism, I mean those people who said, no, to the liberals, no, we believe in the fundamentals.

You're denying the virgin birth, right?

You're denying the resurrection.

You're denying the supernatural.

So the fundamentalists say, no, no, no, we believe in those fundamentals of the faith.

We move forward, you know, in history, and all of a sudden we get this kind of the sort of religious right movement, right?

Now, the religious right movement was a powerful movement, but it was based on their ability to get people organized and motivated and

out, you know, to vote and whatnot.

But it was a mile wide and half an inch deep.

The theological foundations weren't there.

It was just activism for activism's sake.

It was things are bad.

We'll give you a voter guide.

Go vote for the guys that we tell you to vote for.

And then we'll turn this thing around because we've voted for the right guys.

And that's not the answer.

We have to take every thought captive to obey Christ.

I don't just need to know who to vote for.

I need to know why I'm voting.

Amen.

Right?

Yes.

I don't just need to know I like this policy.

I don't like that policy.

What's wrong with this policy?

Like fundamentally, what's wrong with this policy?

See?

So I need to, all of Christ for all of life, take every thought captive to obey Christ

and

destroy every argument and lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God.

That's the two-pronged war that we fight.

Number one, having this, you know, full-orbed, well-developed biblical worldview.

And then number two, with that, being able to say,

no, that's problematic because.

No,

he's problematic because.

It's not enough to just say, you know, no, we're, you know, going to vote against this, that, or the other.

You know, we're going to be pro-life.

Why are you going to be pro-life?

From a biblical theological

why are you going to be pro-life?

Talk to me about being created in the image of God and having inherent dignity, worth, and value, right?

Talk to me about the sanctity of human life because of the incarnation of Jesus Christ,

who doesn't just come into the world as a full-grown man in order to redeem and ransom humanity.

He comes as an embryo, right?

Thereby sanctifying human life from its very origins and beginnings all the way through to its natural end, right?

So that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

We've got to be able to think through these things biblically so that nobody just

can come and, you know, just drag us by the nose, right?

And for us to be carried away by every wind of doctrine.

So

that's a long way around to answering your question.

It's a good answer.

So take me to, and I don't know if you can off the top of your head, but take me to, you said economics need to be brought under.

Yeah.

Talk to me about our economics, what we're doing right now.

How is God in that?

Yeah, in what we're doing right now.

Or what we should be doing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Why is this wrong, what we're doing?

Yeah.

Partly because it's theft,

right?

I mean, that's the main reason that it's wrong, is because we're actually taking from people.

Render unto Caesars, what do you mean?

In order to give to other people.

By the way, isn't that render unto Caesar?

Sort of, right?

But what are we rendering unto Caesar for?

Why does Caesar exist?

What is Caesar's purpose?

Right?

Under

Jesus' time, though, Caesar was...

He was not a good...

No, no, absolutely.

But we have to understand what the purpose of government is.

Yes, right?

To protect rights.

Yeah, absolutely.

And to,

you know, encourage what is good and to punish what is evil, right?

That's government's purpose.

It's not government's purpose, for example, to be in the business of raising children.

It's not government's purpose,

you know, to be in the business, even of taking care of the poor.

That's not their sphere, right?

It's our sphere, and the churches.

It absolutely is.

So from that standpoint, Abraham Kuyper

had

this big idea of sphere sovereignty, right?

God gives us these institutions.

He gives us the family.

He gives us the state, and he gives us the church.

These three different spheres, right?

And these three different spheres

have certain responsibilities, and they have sovereignty in those, you know, particular spheres.

And what we have is we've got these jurisdictional usurpations of sphere sovereignty, like the government basically,

you know, usurping the sphere sovereignty of the home, of the family.

So again, but just particularly back to economics,

the idea of personal property, the idea of personal responsibility, the idea of, you know,

how is personal property tie into the world?

Saving.

Yeah, well, I mean, we're told, for example, in the Bible that we shouldn't move, you know,

the, you know, ancient landmarks.

You know, we're the idea of people's property being their own in the New Testament.

You know, Ananias and Sapphira, everybody talks about, you know, Ananias and Sapphira because, you know, God judges them because they withheld

part of the money that they got from the sale of their home.

The problem wasn't that

they

didn't give that up, right?

Peter says, you know what?

Before you sold that, that was yours.

But then you sold it and you said that

you were going to give it, right?

That's where the judgment came.

But before you sold that,

that was yours.

It didn't belong to someone else.

It belonged to you, right?

I mean, you know,

the respect for personal property, the stewardship of personal property,

you know, the parable of the talents, you know,

I mean, all of these things

are clearly outlined in the scriptures if we are willing to study to show ourselves approved, if we're willing to, you know, tease these things out.

And not only that, but we also see

the things that are wrong

when government, for example, begins to usurp the sphere of the family.

You know, families, by the way, were meant to be places of,

you know, not just consumption, but places of production, right?

So, anyway.

Let me build on that a bit with this question.

How do you balance just recently with now the military is now flying military members?

out of state to be able to get abortions.

So not only is the government paying for the abortion with my money, but they're also paying for the flight and they're encouraging all of these things I stand firmly against.

And they become abusive, really abusive to things that I hold sacred, not that I like,

but sacred.

How do you square that circle with

obeying your governments?

Yeah.

Here's what's interesting.

We're not necessarily called to obey our government in everything.

Nobody can command what God forbids, and nobody can forbid what God commands.

Okay?

COVID regulations, notwithstanding,

that was inappropriate.

The government does not have the right to tell the church that she can't meet, for example.

And I think we have, for example,

in Acts chapter 4,

we have an example of this when, you know, Peter and

John are told not to, you know, preach or teach anymore in the name of Jesus.

And their response is, right, whether it is right to obey you rather than God, you be the judge, but we cannot stop speaking about what we heard.

When the Apostle Paul is in jail in Philippi,

he's been jailed there, and eventually they find out that he's a Roman citizen.

and, you know,

okay, you go.

No, I'm not going.

You bring the magistrate here, right?

He jailed me illegitimately, right?

So

as Christians,

our position is not that the state just, you know, has the right to do whatever the state wants to do.

As Christians, on the one hand, no one has the right to command what God forbids or forbid what God commands, right?

And out of deference to the state, we're willing to accept whatever punishment we have to accept when we say no, right?

But on the other hand, as citizens, we have rights.

And here's the other thing, as Americans, we're in a very unique position.

And again, all of Christ for all of life, right?

Most Americans look at like Romans 13, you know, I think that you're alluding to,

and they say, well, you know, according to Romans 13, you know, we have to submit to them.

Guess what?

As an American, do you know what my governing authority is?

It's not an individual.

It's God.

God is ultimately my governing authority, but as an American citizen,

my governing authority is the Constitution.

Yes.

Correct.

That's my governing authority.

And everybody is held

to that governing authority.

So one of the problems that we have is we don't know what it says.

So when this person says something that's completely out of line with that, well, we go, oh, I guess I'm supposed to do it.

No,

what you might ought to do is confront that based on the fact that they are not obeying

what we're all, you know, agreed to obey which is our constitution we are a

we're we're a constitutional republic right

there's people going to jail now you said you have to take you know responsibility and they are taking responsibility but they're being unjustly i believe unjustly held 11 years in prison is insanity um it's a misdemeanor if that if that um for what are you talking for for the abortion the face act have you no no no no oh you haven't heard this?

No.

No, I live in Africa.

Yeah, I know you live in Africa.

So the FBI has rounded up 11 or 12 people now.

One of them is like an 84-year-old grandmother who was praying at the entrance of an abortion clinic.

At the time, the abortion clinic came and told them they had to go.

Some of them were

hit with a misdemeanor for trespassing, I think.

And it was over.

Two years ago, the DOJ has started opening up cases now of those misdemeanors that were just misdemeanor and dismissed.

And they are now charging them with a FACE Act, which is blocking the entrance.

And they are facing 11

years.

Wow.

Our government is completely out of control.

Wow, wow, wow, wow.

Well, you know,

we have a recourse.

Right.

We have a recourse, you know.

Right.

At the ballot box.

Right.

So what I have a recourse at the ballot box.

What I want to ask you.

I want to ask you, because that's my response.

But

where do you think...

Where do you think the Lord stands on difference between protecting yourself and going out and

creating violence or looking for violence to correct it.

Where do you think the Lord is on

peace and

advancing?

Well, we don't look for violence.

I mean, vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.

I will repay, right?

So, I mean,

that's a pretty clear line there.

But at the same time,

you know, defending our own lives.

That's different.

You know, that's that's if they come for me and they're trying to take my life or take my children's lives, I don't have an obligation to let you kill me.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Let's change the subject to

the culture a bit.

It is almost impossible

to

ride the culture right now.

I saw some things

on Twitter yesterday yesterday

that are happening in our inner cities where

this crowd was just beating this guy down,

black on black, beating him down, just kicking him in the head, vicious.

His girlfriend, wife, I don't know, came and

actually put her body over his head because they were kicking him in the head.

He just lifted up and slapped her out, slapped her out, knocked her out.

I see a video of these guys on stage doing vile, vile things on stage.

And then the next video related to that was these kids this tall

doing that and actually having adults around encouraging it.

What the hell's happened?

How do we

where is anyone stopping this?

Yeah.

This is that Romans 1, you know, this is that 2 Timothy 3.

This is that devolution

of

culture.

And

it's incredibly sad

to watch.

But it seems like it's incredibly discouraging to watch.

It's so discouraging.

Kanye has stood up against this and was brutalized for it.

Yeah.

You know, and I don't,

I don't know about,

I really honestly don't know about Kantia where he's at, but I mean, he at least was speaking out against it.

Yeah.

And, but, you know,

here's the deal: that comes from somewhere, right?

That comes from brokenness,

and it comes from a broken worldview.

It comes from

a devaluation

of humanity, not to mention our fallenness in sin, right?

So, you know, man is fallen and sinful.

That's the problem internally.

And then the culture is broken and fallen and sinful, and that's the problem externally.

And then what we don't have is we don't have, you know, the state, again, that sphere, doing and being what it's supposed to do and be, right?

And courage that which is good and punish that which is evil.

Instead, they're encouraging that which is evil and often punishing that which is good.

So that causes this to mushroom, right?

And then, of course, if

from the individual perspective,

we're not coming at that with law and gospel, if we're not coming at that with the law that points us to our need for Christ, and if we're not coming at that with the gospel, right, that shows how what we need is repentance and faith, but instead, church just becomes, like we talked about earlier, just this sort of social institution, right?

You know, or some other perversion, you know, of this gospel.

I mean, where else are we going to go but see more of this?

Is

Is Satan real?

Yes.

So describe what he is.

He's the prince of the power of the air.

Yeah, what is the evil at work in the sons of disobedience?

Yeah.

There is a real devil.

There's real evil.

But, you know, in Ephesians chapter 2, those first,

you know, three verses,

we see

this

triad, right?

We do see Satan.

We do see the devil.

And he is real.

He is a fallen angel.

He is the prince of the power of the air.

He is at work in the sons of disobedience.

And so.

Father of all lies, father of all lies.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

We do see that.

But we also see the world,

right?

This world, this world

system that we live in.

Okay.

That teaches us what to think, why to think, when to think, okay, how to think.

It teaches us, you know,

what to desire when to desire so we see the world and they also see the flesh

we are fallen in adam

and we inherit um a sin nature from adam because of our fallen adam now you put these together it's the world the flesh and the devil and that's what gets you this chaos that we find ourselves in.

And again, when we're encouraging that and when we're calling good evil and evil good,

we're just, we're pouring, we're pouring gasoline on that fire.

The people who are

I think there's a small number of people who know they're doing the bidding of evil.

And I don't even know who they are.

But I think there are those who know exactly what they're doing.

Yeah.

But the most part,

the others are not.

Is that

why we're supposed to love our enemy?

Because there, by the grace of God, go I?

There's, I was just talking to somebody who, who wrote, um, the book, uh, the,

oh, I can't remember, but it's on,

fascism and what we're going through right now.

And he said, there's this, not to get into the Gnostic kind of belief, but there's this, there's a percentage of people who, when this stuff happens, they just, and he said, I don't know why, but they just don't go there.

They just don't, they see the world differently than the 70%.

You know what I mean?

And they're from the beginning going, what are you guys doing?

And I don't believe that we were born just knowing.

I don't believe any of that.

But there's a difference between the leadership and those who have just fallen slowly and don't even know, isn't there?

Yeah, there absolutely is.

And most people fall into that category of follower, you know, and who've fallen slowly and don't really know.

But back to your

question

about, you know, loving our enemies,

you're right.

I mean,

for the grace of God, go I.

But also, these are people who are made in the image of God.

There are brothers and sisters, and he wants all of his kids back.

These are people who are made in the image of God.

And our desire,

my desire for that individual is

for them.

to come to repentance and faith.

My desire is for their sin to be nailed to the tree.

My desire is for Christ to have the fullness of the reward for which he died.

That's my desire.

Now,

if it were not for

the fact that I know that God is going to set everything right,

then, you know, I would feel like I had to right every wrong and I would feel like I had to exact vengeance.

Correct.

I don't, right?

Whatever those wrongs are, they're either going to be punished

upon that person if they don't come to repentance in faith or nailed to the cross, right?

But in either way, it is not incumbent upon me to bring about that judgment.

And the other thing is, again, back to what you said, there, but for the grace of God, you know, my sin was nailed to the tree.

Yeah.

Okay.

I placed my faith in the finished work of Christ.

So I'm not who I am

because I figured it out.

I'm not who I am because I'm inherently better than anyone.

You know, I am who I am, and I stand where I stand because of God's grace to me through the person and work of Christ.

So that takes away boasting, as Paul would say in Romans, right?

There's no room for boasting.

Right.

Yeah.

You're going back to Africa.

Tonight.

Tonight, yeah.

Yeah.

Why?

I mean, I used to think, you know, go to Australia, go to New Zealand.

Now I think, no, there's really no place.

There's no place.

But what do you, what do you,

why Africa?

Why the pole?

You know, I'm in Zambia, down in South Central Africa.

And

really, I went there to help start a university, to help start the African Christian University.

And

it was a fit, you know, it was a fit.

My gifts, talents, abilities, and desires

were

just a fit for this need and for this unique opportunity.

And it is a very unique opportunity in a country about the size of Texas

with, you know, about half the population.

It's a constitutionally Christian republic.

There's receptivity there, you know, know, to the gospel.

And there's just,

there's an opportunity to do something with lasting impact.

And, you know, and so

we're there.

I ask you this because I know why you're there, but

people who will listen to you and hear you, I know that you're like, come back to America.

You're a voice we really need.

Does that ever pull at you?

No.

Really?

No,

it it doesn't.

It really doesn't.

I think for a couple of reasons.

One, you know, I have opportunities to, I come back three or four times a year, and I'm here for about, you know, 10 or 12 days during different speaking tours.

And I get to see

and be around

and have relationships with

folks who get it and who are doing incredible work.

What did you feel from

Africa that when you arrived you didn't have locked in?

Have you learned anything about where we are or what's happening that you couldn't feel or see from across the water?

I think

the speed with which it's happening,

I come back about once a quarter

and it's crazy.

You know, when I see certain things out I was watching,

I was watching something the other day.

It's probably like a football game or something.

I don't get to watch football games anymore, you know.

So, when I'm here, you know, I go to a restaurant with people, and you know how they have the games on, and I'm the guy who's

got 11 days, yeah.

And I saw a commercial,

I think it was a commercial for you know, some kind of pharmaceuticals or something, maybe an AIDS drug or something, and it was just

open,

blatant,

you know, just in your face.

And

I'm sitting there, you know, my jaw practically on the ground.

And I'm going, wait, what?

What am I seeing right now?

And people around me are going, oh, yeah.

You know, so I think for me, you know, being away and then coming back, it's good.

It just really does, you know.

The other thing is,

because we moved in 2015.

2015,

so we were there at the end of the Obama administration.

And, you know,

I'm a news guy, you know, and talk radio, news, whatever.

And I, you know, I stay up on what's happening and, you know, think about things, try to think about things.

And, you know.

And I go over there and I'm listening to, you know, BBC Africa and to their reporting on the Obama administration and on America.

And I'm going, what are they talking about?

Like,

where, where are they getting this from?

You know?

And so, and then, of course, you know, Trump wins and, you know, talk about people running around with their hair on fire, right?

Oh, yeah.

And so it's just really interesting to be in another country

and listen to the way that people

perceive

what's going on in America.

And then the third thing is

being

in a developing country,

I have so come to appreciate

what we have in America.

Things that people take for granted, right?

Such as

infrastructure,

but not just infrastructure,

just

the cultural differences.

For example, you come to a four-way stop at most places in the United States

and people will stop and take turns.

They don't do that.

Really?

It's the wild west, man.

Wow.

You know, you come to, you know, you come to it because, you know, we got traffic lights, but they don't ever work.

And, you know,

you you come to a stop and you just got it you gotta you know you just gotta be really careful i have a lot of faith man you know but but that's a cultural thing yeah you know um and and it's those kind of things i've i've just come to you know to appreciate and

and also

i've come to see

what the deterioration, you know, and the degradation of those things look like over time.

And then on the other side, you know, I'm in a country

where, you know, there's certain laws, you know, in terms of morality and things like that are more like what we used to have, you know,

here in the United States.

So, yeah, I just, I don't know, I see things from a different perspective.

You know, we've been there for seven years now, and it's just been very interesting to see

the changes

and just to become more and more aware of what it means to be an American.

I tell people all the time, if I've learned anything by living in Africa, it's that I'm not an African.

It is great.

It is great to see you.

We've known each other now for two or three years and have never had a chance to sit down face to face.

It's an honor to be your friend.

Yeah, it really is.

And I appreciate it.

I appreciate

our discussions, whether they happen in front of a camera or behind a camera, you know, and I'm grateful.

God bless you.

Thank you.

Bless you, brother.

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