The 3 Ways To Master Communicating At Work So You Succeed And Win! With Jefferson Fisher

I am so excited for today's episode because how you communicate at work can impact how successful you are as an employee, a boss, and a leader.

You've asked for it and backed by popular demand communication phenomenon, trial attorney Jefferson Fisher is here to talk with you and me today about mastering communicating with employees, with bosses, and with teams inside and outside of work.

These are simple but powerful tips and tools that can single-handedly impact your career.

So let's dive in together.

Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a fifth generation award-winning attorney, writer, and speaker.

His work has gained him millions of followers all over the world through short, simple, practical social media videos teaching people how to argue less and talk more.

Whether it's handling a heated conversation, dealing with a difficult personality, or standing your ground with confidence, Jefferson helps you communicate during life's everyday arguments and conversations.

And his brand new book called The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More, is out now.

Jefferson says, we can change everything about your life by what you say next.

And you and I are in for a treat because Jefferson has stepped away from his busy legal practice.

He got on an airplane.

He flew here to be with you and me today.

Whether you're listening for yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima Show podcast family.

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Jamie Kern Lima is her name.

Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their wife.

Jamie Kern Lima.

Jamie, Jamie, you're so inspiring.

Jamie Kern Lima.

Jefferson Fisher, welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

Thank you so much for having me, Jamie.

I'm honored to be here.

I'm so excited you're here.

Wow, what has happened with you, with your advice, with your videos, it has become a phenomenon.

Thank you.

You're very sweet.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's truly been a blessing.

And right now I'm just holding on.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I'm excited so much to dive into today.

Something that affects every single one of us almost every day of our lives is how we communicate or don't at work,

whether it's as an employee, as a boss, as a leader, as a member of a team.

Can you talk about

like some of the most important tips for how we communicate in the workplace?

What I strongly advise in communicating in the workplace is understanding that

the responsibility is often on you to make sure that your message is understood.

When you're at the workplace, it's not family.

It's not, some of these are acquaintances and strangers.

And let's face it, there's people you don't really even like.

But when you take the responsibility, when you own

the idea of being understood, it shows character and it shows confidence.

So if there's a breakdown of miscommunication, and this happens all the time, if you have miscommunication, there is typically

the desire to blame the other person for not getting it.

When true leadership says, I could have done a better job explaining that, when you have that kind of light bulb moment of using

yourself as

taking that ownership, taking that responsibility.

People are attracted to that.

You also want to make sure, I'd say too, that you use smaller sentences.

Whenever, and that goes to your confidence in the same way, when you email somebody, if you send an email that is three paragraphs, what's the likelihood of it being read?

What's the likelihood of it being absorbed and remembered?

Very low.

Our attention spans are just

not going to be great with that.

So the shorter you can keep that communication, the better.

And with three, I would say you need to understand and learn how to prime rooms, prime conversations.

Explain that.

Yeah, and this goes into, I'll give a sneak peek of rule number three is saying it to connect, and the ability to use frames in conversations.

There's so many different ways that we get worked up at the workplace.

to have that difficult conversation, to let go of somebody, to give them criticism, because you're afraid of how they're going to behave.

You're afraid of how they're going to react.

You're afraid of the outcome.

That's what happens when we get nervous for those conversations.

We're more focused on the outcome.

Oh, they're not going to like me anymore.

Oh,

they're going to think I'm not a competent employee or boss or supervisor, whatever it is.

But frames are ways to help break that down.

And you do that really in three ways.

All you need to do is tell them what you want to talk about.

You need to tell them how you want to feel at the end of the conversation.

And then you need to get their acknowledgement it's as simple as that okay is this as an employee as a boss as a team leader all of it any of it same practice any okay yeah okay break this down because i love this so much because i feel like everyone can start you know communicating this way like today

yeah 100 and this can also be applied and family relationships but let's let's keep it in the workplace okay let's say um that Jamie, you made a comment last Thursday that I heard about later.

I wasn't in the room, but it didn't really go well.

And I'm the supervisor here, and I need to have a conversation with you about it.

I'm going to feel a little bit uncomfortable.

Maybe I delay it a few days because

I just want to procrastinate on that conversation because it's making me nervous thinking about it.

Here's where it goes wrong is when you come in and I go, hey, Jamie,

how are you?

You're good?

How are your parents?

Everybody good?

How's

the kids?

Yeah, they're good.

This weather's crazy, right?

Hey, listen.

And right there, you know, the conversation's going south.

Right now, Jamie's thinking, where are you going?

What's happening here?

Why am I brought in?

Yeah.

And instead, what you need to do is set a frame around the conversation, meaning you need to think of one issue, one frame.

Here's what it would look like in practice in this conversation with Jamie is I would say, Jamie,

this is me saying what I want to talk about.

Jamie, Jamie, I need to talk with you about the comments you made last Thursday.

So right out of the gate.

Right out of the gate.

You just tell them exactly what you need to talk about.

Two is you tell them how you want to feel, how you want to feel at the end, after the conversation.

Not before, not during, at the end.

And you do that by saying, and I think this conversation,

I'd like to walk away with.

a better understanding of what happened or I'd like to walk away feeling like we have the same level of priorities or maybe it's,

I need to, I want to walk away this conversation with the understanding that's not going to happen again.

So it is you telling them at the end of it, this is what I want it to look like.

This is how I want to feel at the end of it.

This is how I want it to happen.

You're giving the conclusion before you even start talking.

And then you get their buy-in.

It's as easy as, sound good?

Does that work?

Can we do that?

Anything like that.

It's kind of like they getting an invisible pin and signing it.

And what Jamie's going to say is, you know, okay, they're not going to say no.

They say yes.

And when you get that nod,

it's an invisible contract.

But no, no, we're not going to talk about Greg from accounting.

We're not going to talk about what happened at lunchtime two months ago.

We're not going to talk about anything else aside from exactly the frame that I laid out.

I already told you what I want to talk about.

I want to make sure this is how it ends.

And then I'm getting your buy-in.

And people don't like to break their word.

So once they agree to it, they're in it.

And it's a way that you can handle almost any conversation you can think of in the workplace.

This is so good, Jefferson.

There are so many bad bosses out there.

Yeah, that's true.

There are so many people put in leadership roles that don't know how to communicate.

And there are so many really talented people or well-intentioned people, but they would have no idea how to have a conversation like this.

And it can just, wow, okay,

this is good.

So you say exactly right out of the gate

what this is about.

And you can do it as an employee, too.

Yeah.

it's all the same yeah because i always say this like managing up is as important to your career as managing down how you manage up to bosses yeah can be as important if not more than when you're the boss how you're managing your teams it's both directions and a lot of people only see it as one direction yes yeah yeah so even if you have feedback that you're afraid to give you don't see an opportunity to give it to somebody who they said something in an email and it hurt you yeah and you're just gonna instead of just dealing with it what i want you to do is use a frame yeah so let's say you're the supervisor i'm the employee and you said something that it didn't feel right with me and i've just been sitting with it i've been living with it and i need to i need to tell you so it's it's it's as easy as hey jamie i'd like to talk with you about the email you sent two days ago and i want to walk away from this conversation with a better alignment on what you expect moving forward.

I'm not asking you to solve it.

Or it could be, and I'm not asking you to solve anything.

I just need you to hear me out.

Or I just need to feel understood on this.

Can we do that?

Simple as that.

Now, everyone hear that recipe?

Did everyone hear that frame, that three-step recipe?

Yes.

What you just did now in the case of if you're the employee, I'm the boss, how you handle it.

Yeah.

That three-step and same peer-to-peer, right?

Exactly.

And the thing is,

it lines out the agreements, lines out the expectations.

There's no hidden, what are they going to bring up?

Or are they, I mean, if you're a supervisor and I'm an employee and I'm wanting to talk to you,

you're automatically thinking, oh, or they're leaving?

Oh, they're looking for a different job.

And what happens is you start to butt in.

You try to fix the problem.

Oh, you're looking for this.

Are you looking for that?

And they're going, no, no, no, you're not listening to me.

And so they are listening.

You're just, you're waiting until you're talking to figure out what you want to say.

This is so good, too, because there's just so much also conflict in the workplace or tension in the workplace.

A lot of times, just colleague to colleague.

And it's like someone could do this, or they took your idea in the meeting, or they said this, and that was not true, or whatever happened.

And you're saying you can even approach it with this framework.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, Yeah.

And you can even what if you squash issues before they happen.

It's so quickly and you can even prime rooms.

So what I like to do even in depositions is I'll sit down and I'll put in a third person in terms of a room.

Like we could say this for example.

I want to make sure that this is a room where I can be totally honest.

Now you see how I didn't put it on you.

So I want to make sure I can be honest with you.

Yeah.

I want to it doesn't say you at all.

I'm talking about the room.

So when you can put it in terms of priming the room, I want to make sure this is, this is a place where I can be transparent or I can tell how tell you how I really feel.

When you prime a room, it's a lot less direct.

It's probably easier sometimes for people to slowly move into addressing those, let's say, the elephant in the room.

So good.

I just had this like premonition, so I'm just going to put it out there.

There's so much more coming up in this episode.

You are not going to want to miss it.

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And here's to becoming unstoppable together.

And now, more of this incredible conversation together.

I just had this like premonition, so I'm just gonna put it out there.

Number one, your new book, The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More.

I've read it cover to cover.

There's a million tools people can apply right now as bosses, as leaders, as employees already in there.

And also, can we please request an entire franchise?

Next conversation at work.

Next conversation in leadership.

The next conversation in parenting.

The next, can we please do, and then can you expand your communication school?

Sorry, not to put any more work on you right now because I can only imagine, but I'm just seeing it all right now because some of these frameworks, nobody has these.

And this is a really big deal.

I want to call something out, Jefferson, that I feel like is this age-old practice.

And a lot of people say to do this,

which they call the sandwich, right?

Yeah.

And I want to talk to you about this.

Okay.

Everyone listening, I'm sure you've heard of this.

You have done it yourself, thinking it's the right thing, or I've had someone do it to you, where you have to have a hard conversation.

You do the sandwich.

You you give something positive.

Oh, it's so great how you did it, da-da-da-da.

Then you say the thing you actually want to say, which is the tough feedback, the thing they're doing wrong, the thing that's a disaster.

Then you wrap it up by, and I'm just so grateful that you have a smile on your face.

So it's that sandwich, which is the nice, and then the thing, and then the nice.

Now, this has been around forever.

People do this by default and then they also call themselves great leaders when they do it.

And

you say,

that's not the way.

You say that is not the way.

Okay, tell us why.

I love this so much.

I love this so much.

In my view, the compliment sandwich is hard to swallow.

It has a, and it's because it has a bad aftertaste.

It feels good in the moment, but as soon as I leave the room, it does not sit well with you and it does not sit well with the other person because there's no authenticity.

You set it up to just try and flatter them at the same time, throw in what could have been a bomb.

I mean,

this is what you want to do.

Yes.

Instead, you need to be very clear and lead with the negative.

It's going to be easier than you think.

And let me tell you why.

You want to lead with the negative.

Then add the positive.

Add on the compliment afterwards.

This is how we we can do this.

Instead of me bringing you in, and let's say I need to let you go, you've been a great employee.

If I, you come in to the room, Jamie, and I say, look, Jamie, you've been great.

You know, we've really enjoyed having you here.

But as soon as you see,

hear the word but, they already know.

Here it comes.

The hammer's coming.

And so that just means everything you said before it was disingenuous.

You're just kind of letting them.

But is one of my least favorite words every time we hear but.

Exactly.

Just it deletes and erases and waters down everything you said before.

Like, I love you, but.

So instead of doing that, the, hey, listen, you've been great.

You've been such an employee.

We love having you.

You're such a bright light.

But as soon as that happens, they already know.

It's disingenuous.

Instead, just lead with the difficult.

And it could sound like this.

Jamie, this is going to be difficult to hear.

Or, Jamie,

we need to talk about something that isn't fun.

Or as simple as, this is going to be a tough conversation.

It's going to be a difficult conversation.

Or, I don't like this conversation.

It's giving them a heads up right now.

I'm not pushing on a compliment.

I'm not giving false flattery.

I'm not giving disingenuous praise.

I'm telling you right up front, this thing can be fun.

You need to understand that people are more emotionally resilient than you think if you just give them the tools to do it.

And what you do is you're allowing them in that moment when I say, this is going to be fun to hear.

It readies themselves.

It allows them to kind of prepare for it.

And their mind's going to think the worst case scenario right away because it was already going to happen.

It was going to already happen.

And when you give them just a pause, give them a two seconds, and it's,

I need to let you go.

So let's say I need to fire you.

If it was, Jamie, this is not going to be fun to talk about.

I need to let you go.

And then you explain the reasons.

Then you have the conversation.

Then you say the hard stuff you needed to say.

And then later, you can add on the,

let me tell you what, I've loved everything about having you here.

If you ever need a referral,

if there is something to be positive about, that's the truth.

I mean, maybe it's a bad employee that you don't have anything positive.

That's the case.

Compliment sandwich was always going to go rotten in a hurry.

It's going to be expired real soon.

Instead, when you are able to add on the compliments at the end and that praise, Then it's kind of like it ends on a pick-me-up.

Then it ends on the, you know what, I'm excited to see where you turn in life.

I'm excited to see where you go or you're going to do wonderful things.

It's just not going to be here, Jamie.

Whenever you can do that, then like, oh, okay.

And now you're emboldening them.

Now you're supporting them.

Now you're giving them more.

And the compliment sandwich.

Now I think it's time to shelf that.

You know, right now,

I feel we're in.

We're always in a challenging era for all different reasons in leadership, in business, in the workplace, as employees, as employers.

You know, so many people are starting their own small businesses at home, and then they have their first employee, and the second employee, and they're like, oh, this is a job.

And then they're dealing with it, it's another job once you have a team.

And you're dealing with all kinds of issues.

And, you know, leadership in any form is one of the most challenging things.

So,

here's what I want to ask you: I'm just going to come out and say this.

I'm going to come out and say it.

Let's go.

Even though not everyone's going to like it, I'm going to come out and say it.

There is a theory that we are in what people are calling the snowflake era, meaning

this sort of addiction people have to getting attention for their problems or being overly sensitive to everything or getting offended by everything.

And I have known personally so many professors, teachers, employers, leaders, pastors who have contemplated staying in their leadership role because they feel like it's so delicate that if you do anything, if you breathe the wrong way and you touch like the snowflake melts and it's just, you get canceled.

Exactly.

All of it.

It's just been this, you know, very, um,

and I think, I think a lot of people are rebelling against that in a lot of things, including the way they vote, including all kinds of things.

So it's a whole thing.

That aside, the point and the question I want to ask is when we're in a position in the workplace where we're in an era where it feels like if we breathe the wrong way, it's going to offend somebody.

And maybe we have to give tough feedback or we have to communicate and we have to lead.

How do we do that?

How do we, and maybe it's...

the tools you've been sharing already because they're so clear and they're so direct and they're so precise.

But how do we do that?

How do we stay really strong leaders in our communication in an era where everyone's so easily offended and leaders are scared out of their minds?

They're going to say the wrong thing or be canceled.

It's a real thing.

Yeah.

There are people that deserve what they get.

There are other people who do not deserve it.

It goes both ways.

For sure, there tends to be, you know, I feel like we're kind of, the pendulum is going to swing the other way of being hypersensitive to being not really sensitive.

How do you navigate that?

Well, one is you don't want to let that water down who you are or your integrity or your character of saying what you feel like you need to say.

The question is, is that something you need to say now?

Is that something you need to agree on?

Is this something we need to agree on now?

But it's a very good tool of asking yourself,

do I need to say it?

Now and am I the one to say it?

Does it need to be said?

So whenever you're able to ask yourself in that moment, is this something that I need to say?

And am I the one to say it?

And often it is the feeling that we feel that we're important enough that everybody has to hear our opinion.

Everybody has to hear what we share and what we say.

Like with people who go onto social media and use it as a megaphone and every other way.

I'm not saying don't be,

don't share what's true to you.

That's not, that's what I'm saying.

You always be true to yourself.

Two would be

use questions more than you use statements, particularly in the workplace.

By that, I mean if you're dealing with somebody who you know to be maybe a little bit hyper

aware of what is sensitive to them,

then you know that you have to adapt your communication style a little differently.

So I might lead the conversation with,

how do you, how can I give good feedback to you?

What's the best way that I can give you feedback?

Or how do you like certain ways?

Or getting somebody's preferences in a communication when you're talking with x y and z how do you prefer to get feedback when you're able to take more of an audit of certain people's styles i mean it goes back to who you hire you know what your mission is what everybody's doing um when you can use questions and get more curious about the other person it's going to be

It's going to be more fruitful for you, more productive than just going around scattershooting every opinion that you have under the sun.

Because there are some opinions out there that, let's be honest they should be kept where they were and that's in your head before they came out of your mouth

but the people that are hypersensitive and hyper aware you're not going to change them by telling them I was just joking or get over it are you too sensitive

that's gonna feed the fire that's not gonna get rid of it so the work begins before you open your mouth before you open your mouth

Do I need to share this now?

Yes.

And am I the right person to share this?

And I think think that's genius because so many of us think, oh, well, I'm the leader.

I'm the boss.

I'm the,

I'm supposed to, but taking a step back and going, wait a minute, do I need to share this now?

Yeah.

And am I the right person?

Right.

And that's kind of a

very

thoughtful way to also just really

in this era we're in,

make sure it's not a big issue.

You'll hear often somebody say, look,

I just have to say.

Or, look, I just need to say no you don't

no there's nothing you have to say that's something you want to say it's something that you want people to hear it the question is who are you saying it for are you saying it to hear yourself are you saying it to make things worse

most often when somebody says I just have to say it was only for them it was an audience of one not for the other person

So good

remember, this episode is not just for you and me.

Please share this with every single person you know because it can change their life too.

Make sure to pick up Jefferson's new book, The Next Conversation.

Argue less, talk more.

And check out his brand new Jefferson Fisher School of Communication.

We'll link it in the show notes.

And if you love today's episode too, well, my only ask is you please click on the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening or watching it on, then give it a five-star review, and then share this episode with everyone you believe in share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it post it and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today you never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode just thank you so much for joining me and before you go i wanted to share some words with you that couldn't be more true you right now exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy.

You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world.

It's an honor to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

And here, I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling, and stay.

as long as you like because you belong here.

You are worthy, you are loved, you are love, and I love you.

And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

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It is going to inspire you, empower you, give you the hope that you need and the kick in the rear end that you deserve.

Jamie's Book Worthy is incredible.

The gifts are going away, but they're all free right now on worthybook.com.

It's such an honor to share this podcast together with you.

And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.