Chrissy Metz: How to Feel Chosen, Choose Yourself & Believe Your Dreams Are Possible, Because They Are!

You can't have a vision without a provision.

So like if it's placed on your heart, you have to pursue it. You got down to 81 cents in your bank account, literally.
And then it happened. What? What? Yeah, it's wild.
He said you have to learn to carry a crown before you can wear one. I know what it's like to be the second fiddle.
I know what it's like to be judged solely on the way I look. It really makes me emotional.
In a lot of my life I never felt chosen and to feel chosen that I was good enough, that I was the right person. My dad, for whatever reason, wasn't able to choose me and so I go go after things that, whether it's men or jobs, I'm literally in the business of rejection.
Even more so, I have to choose myself. Not feeling worthy.
Why does my weight equate my worthiness? She's like, I have a mind obsessed about food. Yes.
I and getting so emotional. I have never cried on the

show. And I'm like getting emotional.
And I'll tell you why. You talk about healing through this role of playing Kate, and people are coming up to you sharing how what you've done has helped them heal.
Instead of talking about now, focusing on being chosen, you're saying, oh, I'm focusing on choosing myself. Look at all the studies and they show you can't have like a deep, meaningful connection and love with someone else that's any deeper than the love you have for yourself.
This is, I know. How do you not attach your worth to fame? Oh boy.
Well...

Chrissy! Hi! You're beautiful. You walking out, I feel like it's just like a wedding reveal.

We are together. I know.
This is us. This is us.
I think about that all the time.

Can I tell you? Yes! So we have this. How sweet.
Chrissy Metz. Thank you.

Welcome to the Jamie, Crissy, Michelle. You're so sweet.
Chrissy Metz. Thank you.
Welcome to the Jamie Crissy Show. That's so sweet.
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Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life.
Jamie Kern Lima. Jamie, you're so inspiring.
Jamie Kern Lima. She's an Emmy and Golden Globe nominated actor, a number one New York Times bestselling author, a mega talented singer who's sung on stages ranging from the Grand Ole Opry to Disney World to singing while acting as the role of Kate Pearson for six years on the hit NBC show, This Is Us.
Chrissy Metz, welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Thank you so much.
This is really exciting. I've missed you.
I haven't seen you in, it seems like, forever. And it's so cool to just be here and your presence in this beautiful, beautiful place.
So thank you. Well, I am so grateful that you are here.
Thank you. Yeah want to ask you, so many people have big dreams, like big dreams, but they feel like they don't have what it takes to defy the odds in their life.
And you, for nine years, worked, as you put it, a second fiddle, sort of behind the scenes, helping other people's dreams come true. While you were pursuing your own dream, you got down to 81 cents in your bank account, literally.
And then it happened. You defied the odds, Chrissy Mutz.
And so my first question is just, for you and your life, how did you defy the odds?

Well, I think it's really your intention,

like why you want to do something.

Like I was never interested in the fame or fortune.

I grew up very humble beginnings.

It was like, I didn't think I was going to actually ever have money to like own a home.

Like I didn't even have a washer and dryer.

You know what I mean?

Like it's things that like you don't really think about.

You're like, yeah, okay, whatever.

I just wanted to relate to someone. I wanted someone to relate to me.
I wanted to tell stories. And I really wanted to be a part of something that I think was bigger than me.
And I think inevitably, what I ended up doing was like, after lots of hemming and hawing and crying and thinking I was going to move back home to Florida, like, why do I want to do this? Can I actually give it up? And, like, I've heard people say, like, are you – have you – if you have a – you can't have a vision without a provision. So, like, if it's placed on your heart, you have to pursue it.
And, like, even if the pursuit is – that's your life's journey. Because we all know that, like, once you get to the destination, it's not not about the destination and only have you gone to the destination do you know that but I think a lot of it is like just surrendering and trusting and I I don't do that very well but it took me you know 12 years to do that and I think once I did then it actually happened which is still insane to think about that somebody knows my name or that I'm sitting here talking to you about like my life.
What? What? Yeah, it's wild. Crazy.
I love that. I think too, exactly what you just said has been my experience with some of my big goals in life.
And I just want to share this and reiterate it for everyone who's watching us and listening to us right now, because so often we think, when I get to that thing, then I'm going to have fulfillment. And then when you get to that thing, you still take you with you.
So when you look back, it's a lot of times it's that pursuit of it. It's the journey.
It's knowing why you're doing it. And then you just said something really, really big that I just want to ask you about again, because this is tough for a lot of us, but learning to just surrender and kind of trust that things are happening as they're supposed to.
Yeah, because we can't see what's even five steps ahead of us, and you just think it's just going to be this terrible forever. And then I always remind myself that what do I learn in these terrible moments? How do I continue to like persevere or what do I get to learn about myself or what I want to do I always try to think of the positive I know it's difficult when you're in it but for me that's helped because I know that I truly believe there's a reason for everything can you talk about you use this fiddle, playing second fiddle.
And you were for nine years an agent helping other people. A lot of people feel like they're maybe working in a business, but really want to launch their own or their, you know what I'm saying? Their second fiddle in different areas of their life.
Well, Devon Franklin, who produced the movie Breakthrough I was in, he said something so profound that I think about it all the time. And he said, you have to learn to carry a crown before you can wear one.
Yeah. And I was like, right.
Because how could I know how to walk through something I've never even seen? I've never experienced. If I didn't get to interview people, hundreds of aspiring actors a day, how would I know to talk on the red carpet? Like, how would I be able to engage? Like, there's all of these things sort of set in place that I'm like, oh, right.
I didn't have to have media training because I did that for nine years. You know, like, there's all these things that I got to learn about the business from yes.
I mean, I always say it was like watching your boyfriend take another woman out every day. You're like, okay, great, right? You get to do what I love to do and sit at my favorite table at my favorite restaurant.
It's fine. It's fine.
But then I realized I get to figure out how much I wanted it and why I wanted it. And I saw so many people come and go.
Their interest was fleeting or they really didn't know what they wanted. And so I really do believe that like all of those things are set up in a way to like inform you.
And it really that I learned so much about myself, about the business. And like, even when I was looking for agents, I'm like, you can't agent me because I've been an agent.
You know, like I had so much information. I'm like, oh, oh, that's actually nice.
I don't have to like put on these airs. I'm like, yeah, great.
So yeah, like you, things are happening for your good. I really believe that.
Do you believe our steps are ordered? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do.
Yeah, because my life doesn't make sense. It just does not make any sense.
And it's not about me. Like I feel like I'm just theit.
Like, I'm the piece that gets to tell the story that needs to be told. Not because of me, not because I'm talented, or I'm more special than anyone else.
I'm like a regular girl, just with a different job. I really, really believe that.
Like, I'm, yeah. I know when you were auditioning for This Is Us, you know that famous saying, success leaves clues.
And will you share how in that audition process, now you were nine years in to being an agent, you were down to 81 cents in your bank account. You're auditioning for this huge role and you wrote a letter.
Yeah. Will you share that with everybody? Yeah.
So the audition process can be kind of grueling. You go through so many motions and then you test to see what the chemistry is like between you and the other cast members.
And so you spend like eight hours there and they try to match you up. They were trying to see Justin Hartley's character, Kevin, would I have chemistry with him as my brother? And I'm like looking for different people in the room.
Like, do I look like him? Could I be his twin? Do I look like, you know? And I'm like, Gracie, all you have to do is what you've done before. And I'm like, okay, right.
And so much of that whole process was like, am I good enough? Am I good enough to do this? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know because I've never been on a TV show before.
I mean, I know what it takes and I've been behind the desk and I understand the business. But to actually suit up and show up for myself and this entire show, I'm like, I don't know.
But I knew that after the first two auditions

and the callback and the chemistry read,

I was like, I just want them to know how bad I want this job.

And I just want them to know that I'm willing.

I'm not above groveling for anything or apologizing

or asking for what it is that I need or want.

But I just felt compelled to write this letter. And so I wrote it to the executives at Fox and NBC, the studio and the network of the show.
And I just said, I know what it's like to be the second fiddle. I've been in the shadows of so many aspiring actors.
I know what it's like to be judged solely on the way I look. And I know what it's like to have bigger dreams and all the things that I feel like Kate was really about.
And I said, so whoever you choose is going to be the right person. And I'm excited to watch the show.
Something like to that nature. And to this day, anytime we get around other executives or anyone, they're like, nobody writes letters.
Like that was so special for us. And I was like, oh, my gosh.
Okay, that's great. Because, you know, I'm like nervous to do it.
Yeah. I'm like, should I? Should I not? And I was like, no.
My first instinct was to do it. Yeah.
And you trusted it. I trusted it.
And I'm glad that I did because it just – I think it just – sometimes you just take that extra effort, and it just means something. Yes.
You know, it can really – I think love is in the details just generally, and I think when you make an extra effort, it means a lot. So many people think that something will just fall on their lap or it's just going to magically be delivered, or if someone hasn't come to them, maybe they're not destined to do it.
And when I was reading about how you wrote that letter to the executive saying, I am this person. I live and breathe this person.
This is why I'm great for the role. It just reminded me, and I love sharing it.
So thank you. Because so many people listening don't realize they think there's something maybe inadequate with them if no one's just handed them what they're hoping for, but success leaves clues.
And you writing that letter reminds me of so many times where, actually just this morning, I got bad news and something I was hoping for. And my first thought is, okay, I'm going to have to figure out how to turn this around and I'm going to get it back.
I'm going to make it happen somehow. So let me figure out how I'm going to make it happen.
So I think through and 99% of the time in my life when I've done that, I get the thing. And sometimes it's not the next day.
Sometimes it's over time. Gosh, I remember years of retailers telling me no to carrying it cosmetics.
And every time I was like, okay, what can I do? I'm going to send them an email. I'm going to send them my name over and over.
And so when I read that you sent that letter, I loved it because I think it's just a beautiful gift for people to hear that, who maybe think like, oh, okay, maybe everyone who gets the thing they want also has to kind of keep going after it. You don't just magically, you don't just magically get discovered half the time.
Yeah, no. You know what I mean? It often doesn't just fall right into your lap.
And I know you wrote in that letter, or rather after you've talked about it, and just your appreciation for This Is Us creator, Dan Fogelman, saying that just that you appreciate what he did and that he chose you. And you say, especially because of how significant it was to choose a woman who didn't look like every other woman or every other person on TV.
Yeah. Can you talk about that? Anytime I think about Dan, it really makes me emotional.
Why? He just, first of all, he's absolutely brilliant in the most humble way, self-deprecating way. And he's just so like in tune with emotion and the human condition.
And it just comes through, I think, with everything he does. But also, yeah also yeah that he it was pitched originally as a film and one executive at some i don't know wherever place said oh wait so the plus size girl like she's like how plus size like kate winslet and he was like first of all what are you saying second of all no this is like a real woman who's like really dealt with weight issues and it's plagued her her entire life.
And she was loosely based off of his sister. And so I think Kate was very important to Dan.
And so knowing that and knowing that he was so intentional about who he wanted. Uh-oh.
Uh-oh. Uh-oh.
Ooh. And a lot of my life I never felt chosen.
Oh, no. I didn't think I was going to cry.
But I do. And so here I am.
And to be chosen for such a special role and a show and a time as it was, like, I always say, like, if I never book another role or show or movie again, like it's enough.

It's enough. Like at some point things have to be enough.
And that was so magical for so many reasons. And not only did it set like the tone for new shows and new movies and just people being cast as just people, even if they weren't a particular size and even the role didn't have to talk about the size that they were.
That position that I got to just so gratefully be put in was so special. And to feel chosen that I was good enough, that I was the right person.
And also not being incredibly experienced. I mean, everybody on the show had 10, 15, 20 years of acting.
That was the first show I ever tested for. And I remember the second scene Chris and I, Chris Sullivan, who played Toby, and I did together, I looked at him and I was like, Chris, I can't do this.
I can't do this. I don't know my life.
so afraid. Like, I think they hired the wrong girl.
And he was like, no, they didn't. No, they didn't.
And I was like, and I'm like, okay, okay, please, Lord, help me on everything that is holy. Just help me because like, I, I didn't think I deserved it or was worth it or, you know, so there's a lot of pressure, but I'm'm I'm so indebted to Dan not only did I learn

so much about acting myself obviously developed incredible relationships with people but like

what that particular role gave my life

unreal unreal that's unreal in what way um well it provided like an opportunity to like instill trust in myself which i think is really confidence when you talk about dan fogelman choosing you yeah you posted recently on your instagram that you want to be chosen not half chosen yeah yeah Can you talk about that idea and just like that through line through your life?

Well. that you want to be chosen, not half chosen.
Yeah. Yeah.
Can you talk about that idea and just like that through line through your life?

Well, we're going to get serious now.

So thank goodness for therapy.

I think this as a whole, I wish it was more accessible to more people because I think we have to treat the soil.

That's beside the point, but the most important point about mental health and therapy.

But what I've discovered in therapy is that my dad, for whatever reason, wasn't able to choose me. And so I go after things that, whether it's men or jobs, I'm literally in the business of rejection.
I'm like, oh, that's comfortable for me. Oh, great, great, great.
Let me just pursue that because that's what I'm used to. It's normal to me.

It's not healthy, but it's what I know.

And like, right, we sort of veer toward the devil that we know.

And so just discovering like I need to be chosen, but even more so I have to choose myself and make a sort of living amends to myself about choosing myself because my dad was either unwilling or incapable.

I'd like to believe he was just incapable.

But I realized through therapy that like, oh, wow, like I choose things that don't choose me because I'm like trying to, I think, rectify that situation. or like I feel like I'm valuable to someone and not have to beg them to choose me,

but have to beg them to choose me but have it have to be willingly chosen and so I think that's why when you asked about Dan like I got so emotional because like just as I was just what I did was good enough and he chose it and it was right doesn't mean you're always going to be. And that's fine too, because I do believe the things that are meant for you are yours

and will find you no matter what.

But yeah, being chosen is, oh, that's a hard lesson.

And even to accept that like that some people aren't going to choose you.

And like even what you mentioned earlier, I was like, oh my gosh, I needed to hear that

because I think like if I'm not chosen right out of the gate, then I don't need to like – it's not right. But sometimes you do have to sort of take a step back and say like, oh, wait, if I want something, how do I kind of like reconfigure that pursuit? I was like, oh, wow.
Oh, wow, I needed to hear that. So thank you for that.
But yeah. Yeah.
Nobody wants to be half chosen. Like either all in or don't do it at all.
Yeah. Really.
That's how I felt. What have you learned that you can share with anyone maybe who feels like they're never chosen? Well, if we believe that everything happens as it should and and for a reason not being chosen is a reason you know even though it feels like you're discarded you're dismissed like i always say like god's rejection is your protection yes you know and it's easy to say that it's easy to sit somewhere and say that but to to like put it into practice is difficult.

You're like, really again?

Really again?

Again?

Again?

How do I continue to like just show up and have like the endurance or the stamina, you know?

But I think you just have to, for me, I have to go back to, I mean, even after the show

is wrapped, I'm like, well, why haven't I had this series or why haven't I?

Because it's not, it's, it's not what you're supposed to be doing or it not what you want to be doing. Or it's not what's in the cards for you.
And then it's provided an opportunity for me to pursue music in a real way. So there are reasons why things are happening or why you're not chosen.
And even particularly with my father, that relationship or lack of allowed me to really develop, I think,

compassion and empathy and really get to know myself and show up for myself and do the things

that unfortunately was not cultivated in our relationship.

And then also not hold on to resentment for him because I truly believe that if we know better, we do better. But not to say it's easy.
It's a work in progress. I'm a work in progress.
When your mom married your stepdad and growing up in that environment, you've shared in your memoir, you've shared a little bit about sort of the emotional and physical abuse that you went through, that he would bring a scale into the kitchen and shame you over, like, weigh you publicly and shame you over it. What was that experience like and how's it impacted you? Oh, gosh.
I think it impacts everything. You know, like, it is, it's tricky because I know my mom, my dad basically left and left my mom with like nothing.
Three kids and she was struggling for many, many years. And I've talked about like times where she wouldn't eat because there wasn't enough food and she didn't have enough money for enough food for everybody and the sacrifices that she made.
And I know that she loved my stepfather, but I know that she also really needed us to have like a consistent like roof over our heads. I went to five elementary schools because we moved so often, which I think also helped me because then I can talk to anybody.
You know, like I want to believe there's like a blessing in every sort of difficult time, but it was hard because I felt like I was singled out by him. He didn't really treat my younger sisters the same way.
And again, not feeling chosen or feeling chosen for the wrong thing or being sort of, it was like a magnifying glass. And I, now as an adult, I'm like, okay, maybe he actually loved me, didn't know how to express it, and did it in such a difficult way that he thought he was being helpful.
Like, he doesn't want me to be unhealthy or he doesn't want me to be a certain way, but also hurt people hurt people. And he was, I think, very hurt by his own father.
These are only things I can say now because I've gone to therapy and like I've processed feelings. But in the moment, I mean, I was devastated.
And it affected the way I walked into every room. I think it still affects the way I walk into a room.
It's like my desire to be a people pleaser and a peacemaker. I'm also the middle child of five.
So that has something to with it. But yeah, like not feeling worthy worthy.
Like why does my weight equate my worthiness? Or like why does it bother him so much? Or like what is he projecting onto me? Like what is that? And as, you know, a 12-year-old kid, it's like how do you reconcile that in your mind? So, you know, kids just their job is to be loved, know and some parents don't have that capacity unfortunately so yeah it was devastating it was I mean it's still something that I deal with and even in any kind of relationship and any kind of job that I want I'm like am I am I worthy of this like it's so much about like am I worthy of this? Like, it's so much about like, am I worthy of attention, affection, love? Because as a parent, I feel like that's their job. And when you don't get that, or you get it in a very unhealthy way, I'm not justifying his actions.
I think a lot of therapists who might listen to this be like, don't, don't you say that you cannot justify his actions. Like he didn't do what you're supposed to do as a parent.
But it is, yeah, it is still very painful if I like really kind of get to the root of it. There's still a lot of pain about all of that.
Yeah, for sure. How did he do that with anyone else in the family? And what would he do exactly? I know he'd scale and yeah yeah like he would weigh me in the in the kitchen or like threaten to like lock the cupboards and i'm like i don't think you get it like it's not and because i think there's so much more awareness now around food food issues food behavior yes um people you know when we educate people the fear goes away and maybe he was fearful.
I don't really know. But, yeah, I mean, definitely mental, physical, emotional abuse for sure.
Yeah. It was – and while you're going through puberty and you look like none of your other friends and you can't fit into any of the cute wet seal clothes that they can fit into, you're like, oh, let me borrow your necklace yeah and then also you know all my friends like all the boys liked my friends and I always felt like I was setting my friends up with cute boys and yeah there's so much stigma about weight and there still is for a myriad of reasons um but I think there's this idea that like, oh, you can't put the food down or you're lazy or whatever.
And because, and I don't want to go off on a tangent, but I feel like sex, drugs, rock and roll, it's so glorified. Or like very thin, beautiful models are like on a pedestal, even though they're very unhealthy as unhealthy as well you know they're not taking

care of their bodies but when you're overweight it's like a whole other thing and it's so bizarre um so yeah i mean the physical that i think the emotion like the physical abuse like yeah not great but the emotional stuff that like just they're like little nicks little cuts and eventually you like bleed out like it is painful

um emotional stuff that like just like little nicks little cuts and eventually you like bleed out

like it is painful um so yeah i think i'm trying to heal those wounds slowly but surely and it's not easy because it definitely comes up in every like the root of it is like i'm unworthy everything you funnel down the feelings oh i'm unworthy so yeah a root of it is like I'm unworthy. Everything.
You funnel down the feelings. Oh, I'm unworthy.
So, yeah. A lot.
How did it feel walking into a role where you were chosen then? And then, I mean, year after year after year, I know people just come up to you in the bathroom and share their stories with you. Like you're chosen by America and like celebrated and connected with so deeply.

Yeah.

It is not lost on me.

Yeah.

Do you feel worthy of it?

What's interesting is all the things I never heard, I get to hear from people.

And so everyone's like, oh, I'm sorry if I'm bothering you.

I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Like you're healing the wounds for me. Like you're putting a little band-aids on these wounds for me.
And it really means a lot to me. And it means a lot because I feel like they have been impacted.
And not because of me, but because of, yes, what I've brought to the role, but also the way that it was written, the way that there was such care taken for her and for the show as a whole. And like, nobody, we don't have a blueprint for life.
We're all just like trying to figure it out. And I think Kate did that so imperfectly that people related to that.
And for that, I'm so grateful because it does connect me with people that I'd never, I remember the, one of the first women who ever came up to me in New York City

she's like this cute little thing

her cute little workout clothes and her little

stroller and her little baby

and she's like can I talk to you

and I was like sure

and I think she's going to like say

something hateful or rude or whatever

and I preconceived

I had this preconceived notion of what she was

going to say because she looked a certain way and she was like

I can't tell you how much I

relate to your character and I'm like

Thank you. And I preconceived – like I had this preconceived notion of what she was going to say because she looked a certain way and she was like, I can't tell you how much I relate to your character.
And I'm like, what? But why? What do you mean? And she's like, just because I'm not overweight – just because I don't have extra weight on my body doesn't mean that I don't relate to the behaviors or the unworthiness or whatever the behavior is around food. She's like, I have a mind obsessed about food.
Yes. I'm getting so emotional.
I have never cried on this show. And I'm getting emotional.
And I'll tell you why. Because you're talking about our steps are ordered.
You're talking about the things that you did not get growing up. And I always think about this idea that God gives us double for our trouble.
And I'm thinking about how you are healing.

You talk about healing through this role of playing Kate,

and people are coming up to you sharing how what you've done has helped them heal.

And it's almost like what you're just describing right now is like double.

It's like you're healing.

You're talking about them helping you heal through the words they're sharing with you. And then they're healing through seeing themselves through you.
And it's like double. And it makes me think of anybody sort of like going through a hard time right now or in a tough situation, not understanding why it's happening to them or how they're not getting the love they need or any of those things.
And the thing that you said earlier too about how you weren't chosen and instead of talking about now focusing on being chosen, you're saying, oh, I'm focusing on choosing myself, choosing myself. That is going to be huge for people listening.
It's so hard because we're not – How do you do that? Yeah, it's not cultivated. Yeah.
Because if you do, then you're selfish. Or how could you think about only your, I'm always thinking about everybody else so much that my therapist is like, Chrissy, your mantra is what's in it for Chrissy? What do you get out of it? And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.
What? What is that concept? I don't know. What? I don't think about me.
and you have to just like on every single airplane they say you have to put the oxygen mask on yourself every time I hear that I'm like oh right because you can't help whoever's sitting next to you or you know god forbid a family member and it's difficult it's so difficult to choose yourself yes and and because it's not cultivated because we feel selfish or if someone's not choosing their selves themselves their selves they they then feel guilty and they project that they're not choosing you know so then they try to make you feel bad and you're like wait you know as soon as you draw boundaries and choose yourself you really get to see who people really are or wherever they're at, I should say, in their journey. There's so much more coming up in this episode.
You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you.
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And now more of this incredible conversation together. Because I always say like people are troubled.
I don't think they want to be. Like we just have a lot to uncover, discover, discard, you know, in our lives.
So it's hard to choose myself though. It's so important, right? Yeah, it's so important.
And it's a lie that it's selfish. I think like, you know, you look at all the studies and they show you can't have that

like a deep, meaningful connection and love with someone else that's any deeper than the love you have for yourself. Right.
And I don't know if you've ever had this. I know.
Yeah. Like anyone listening right now, it's like, it's a big one because especially as women, we think, oh, let me make everyone else happy.
Then I'll be happy. But it's like you can't have the depth of love and connection any deeper with anyone else than the depth of love and connection you have for yourself.
And I think that what I've learned the hard way, I'd be curious if you've learned this as well or had a similar experience, is that a lot of my life I thought if enough other people chose me, then I'd feel chosen. And so I overachieved or I tried to make everyone else happier.
And you can get chosen. You can get famous.
You can get whatever it is your goals and dreams are. But if you're not yet choosing yourself, you'll still never feel chosen.
It's so profound. I don't think I've ever talked with anyone about this, by the way, but it's so profound that you're on this journey.
I think that's so powerful because I'm just imagining so many people listening to us, again, seeing themselves through you that are going going to be like, wait a minute. Well, you just give me an epiphany.
Because it's like, yeah, I can only give what I have. And obviously we can only keep what we give away.
But you also have to give that back to yourself because you can't give from an empty well. And you have to have that love to give to someone else and it has to come from yourself.
And then I realized, oh, girl, like, yeah, all of the work of my father not choosing me or even, you know, Dan choosing me or whatever role or label or whatever wants to work with me, like, I can't attach to that. Like, I can only attach to like, how I feel about myself and how I show up for myself.
So I can then show up for other people. We so often think, I mean, I feel like this is sort of this story in almost every advertisement and everything we grew up thinking that like, if I finally get that, then I'll be happy.
Whether, you know, now online and social, oh my gosh, it's when I finally get a million followers, when I finally get famous, or when I finally get six pack abs, or married, or a job title, or whatever it is. I want to ask you, because you said something at the very beginning of this that was so profound.
And I think about this because sometimes I think I feel so blessed to have accomplished some of my greatest goals to realize, oh, that's not it if I don't first love myself. And I want to just ask you this because you're one of the very few people on the planet.
When you look at the whole population, you're one of the very few people who've been able to have this experience that so many other people dream of. But you have become famous.
And for everyone out there who thinks once I finally get that thing, then it's going to change everything. Then I'm going to be happy.
Then I'm going to be enough. What has becoming famous been like? What changed? What didn't? All of it.

Well, people know my name and I definitely cry in bathrooms with strangers. So that's actually not different because I've always been an emotional person.
I've always had tons of empathy for people. And I think that's the thing that people attach to in my work, that they're like, oh, she's sincere and honest.

Because I don't because I don't I don't like what is talent what is talent anyway it's so subjective yeah but um I think it's connecting to someone and I love people and I love to connect with people and it doesn't matter where they're from who they are what language they speak like what, like, what their background is. Like, I think that's the whole reason, like, we're here on this plane of existence is to, like, treat people kindly.
Like, that's all that really matters at the end of the day. And so that and me I don't think has ever changed, but it's definitely, like, you know, they say more money, more problems.
Like, that definitely is a thing, especially when you come from a family and a life that like, I didn't know how to manage money.

What does that even mean?

Like, I don't even understand.

Like, huh?

So that was very overwhelming.

And it's seemingly there's a lot of fear about that.

And then also like fear of scarcity. Like, well, I've had this now.
So like, what's going to happen? And like, who am I without this show? You know, but of course the beautiful opportunities, the people that I've had a chance to meet, the places I've had opportunities to go. Like I, I never expected that.
And those things like really, I think can form you as a person. And those things I want to bring back to my family and to my friends and try to be generous in that way but I think that um you know I before the show I could go on an airplane and someone could like not want to sit next to me why if they were like too squished or you know they were gonna be like oh gosh here comes a big girl that I have to sit next to but because now i'm on a tv show they don't care you know or they're like oh well you're famous and i'm like oh but like you i can't attach to the good or the bad because if i do then i've allowed them to sort of have that power over me because i know ultimately it's not like you it's not like people necessarily don't care about me, but they care about like who they think I am or because I was on a TV every Tuesday in their home.
It's such a weird mind twist of things. So you saw a profound difference from sitting on an airplane.
Oh, yeah. What was people's reactions like before?

And then when did you notice that changed?

Oh, it was always like, like, they're going to be bothered that I'm sitting next to them or they wouldn't, you know, look at me twice or they would not engage.

And then when I became, let's put it in air quotes, famous, then they're like, want to

have a conversation or they were more apt to want to sit next to me. And I don't know what that is.
It's still something that like my friends and I talk about because like, what does it really even mean? I don't know. I don't know.
It's very bizarre because on one hand, I'm so grateful for the job that I have, but I'm also like. So like they dropped their judgment or they dropped their discrimination because now you're famous.
But I don't think they did. I think that they're just like, because the judgment is now like, oh, I'm famous.
Yep. You know? Yep.
And like, maybe what could I provide to them or like what insight could I share with them? Or I don't know, like, do they feel cooler because they're sitting next to someone who's famous? I don't know. I don't understand it.
But it is very interesting to me. And so that kind of behavior is it makes you not want to trust people, you know.
And you're like, but why? Even in relationships, it's like why does a man want to be with me? Like, is it something that like, are they going to get something from me? Like, even friendships, the friends that I have are from when I was broke. Broke, broke, broke, broke.
It's hard to now cultivate relationships because I'm like, what are people's intentions? So it's so weird. Like, those things have certainly changed.
And I don't really know how to navigate them I'm learning um also you know people always say you're only as good as your last job and I'm like oh I'm not I was Chrissy before I was Kate and I'm gonna be Chrissy long after you know maybe people don't even watch tv anymore who knows if that's gonna be a thing but like I still want to work and I still want, you know, maybe people don't even watch TV anymore. Who knows if that's going to be a thing.
But like I still want to work and I still want to, you know, portray particular roles and stories, but I can't attach to my self-worth to the jobs that I get. And that's hard.
And I never had to deal with that before. The number of letters and emails I get and DMs from people saying, like, I just got laid off from my job.
Or my company just went under. And they had attached their identity and their worth to a title or a thing.
And in this case, you being such an important character on such a huge beloved show, right, for six years, and then that ending, do you feel like or have you experienced feeling like you let your identity be attached to that? Oh, sure. Yeah.
Oh, I don't think I'd be human if I didn't. Yeah, especially six years.

That's a long time.

Also because it changed so much of my life.

And like I say, people treat you differently.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

So, yeah, it definitely plays with my mind because I'm like, oh, okay, so if I don't get another job or if I don't have something that's prolific or profound,

what are people going to think about me?

Are they going to still like me?

Are they going to care enough to like follow me?

And if I don't have enough followers, there's not enough cachet.

Are people not going to hire me?

So it's like this weird cyclical wild ride that I'm like, oh, do I like how do I balance

playing that where I feel like Instagram is something authentic? Let's just say social media. Social media is authentic, but it's also I have to preserve my own mental health.
Yeah, yeah. It is – it's wild.
I have to really step away from it. And I don't read comments because I'll read 100 really sweet, wonderful comments.
And then one person's like, well, you know what you need to do. And I'm like, you know, like, why? You know.
How do you not attach your worth to fame? Oh, boy. Well, I didn't always have it.
Yeah. Like I said, said i grew up humble beginnings i know what it's like to walk down the street and not have anyone look at me or have them look at me because they're like disgusted because i'm a plus-size girl whatever their judgment is and then now it's like oh oh you're famous so i've sort of like like i've gone through like a whole process and so i'm like oh yeah maybe my ego would be very bruised because i'm a human and i we do everything we do because we want to be loved everything we do because we just just love me like just validate me and love me but then it comes back to self-love So could I be okay with people not recognizing me and not liking me and not, that has to be cultivated within.
So it has to always come back to that. So I guess that's ultimately what I'm working on.
Yeah. You know, it's such a journey, right? Oh, gosh.
I feel like the sooner we do it, the better. Cause a lot of people don't, don't really recognize that, um, their identity is attached to their kids.
And then all of a sudden the kids leave and they're just- Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Or their job. And before you know it, decades of life have gone by not realizing that sort of like ultimate journey to worthiness, which is so...
Our jobs are... All the stuff on the outside is irrelevant to it, but we're raised thinking that's the thing.
Yeah. Yeah.
And then talking about sort of like weight and worth, I know Oprah has shared publicly that people treat her so different if she is over 200 pounds versus under 200 pounds. And she and I had a really powerful discussion about what is brand

new to so many people. Because I feel like while we still have a long way to go, we're finally

making strides in different areas of discrimination. At least a lot of us are trying.
And yet when it

comes to weight, I still feel like it's this one area where a lot of people just think it's okay to just judge or discriminate or any of that. And she and I were talking about just all the medical advancements in science that's now literally completely obliterating the lie that for so many of us, our weight is our choice or our weight is tied to willpower or any of those things.
And some of it's been around 10 years, but they're showing in a lot of cases that for people that deal with obesity, most of the time, it's not their choice. most of the time and they're linking it to different conditions in our brain and different

things just like any other traits that we have. And so what has your, I mean, what experience are you living in now? What are your thoughts around that? Yeah, it's so interesting.
I have lots of thoughts and lots of information I still, I think I'm collecting because I don't completely understand – like if somebody wants to take a particular prescription, they absolutely should. And if it works for them and they feel good about it and they've consulted with their doctors, like do it.
Do it. But if you don't want to, that's okay too.
Whether it's a surgery, it's an actual medicine. like we are not we don't want to that's okay too whether it's a surgery it's a um you know an

actual medicine like we are not we don't know everybody's ins and outs and like we don't know their medical history and like you know it's so much of a judgment is it our business no exactly yeah exactly and that's why i said earlier it's like with models who are sickly thin who don't eat and smoke cigarettes, they're glorified. But when you're overweight, it's like it's the most disgusting thing you could.
And the societal conditions that have been placed upon us, you know, it's just so wild. So I think no matter what kind of body you're in, if you're healthy, great.
Because that's all we really want is to be healthy and the longevity and quality of life. So if medications or whatever it is that you want to do makes you feel good and it's helping you, great.
I also have – I know there's always like an adverse – you don't know what the long-term effects are sometimes with things and like that's scary but like if the short-term desire to change or need to change is more important then that's what you choose you know um and we're not here to judge anybody like i don't want to judge anybody for whatever they want to do like who am i who am But I'm also, I always like to see both sides of every coin. That's just sort of who I am.
And, you know, it could be great for me, it could be not great for you, or it could be great for someone else and not great for me, whatever. But I do think that we are a society of quick fixes.
I think that our pain management as a whole is terrible. I think we don't know how to manage pain, emotional, physical.
And I've spoken to several like orthopedists who are like in other countries, like people aren't over prescribed pain medication. Like you learn to actually like deal with pain as opposed to just trying to pop a pill and think that like, okay, great.
And so I think we don't want to sit in discomfort. And that's one thing I'm very, I'm very comfortable with being uncomfortable because I've basically been uncomfortable my entire life for whatever reason.
And so I don't want a quick fix about anything because we know that the bandaid, like food my food issues the food is not the issue it's the symptom there's things that make me have behaviors around food and perhaps there's a chemical thing and perhaps like putting that with a particular medication is you know like it's everybody it's so nuanced but I do think that we I anything, like we don't want to feel something, we scroll through Instagram. Yeah.
You know, we don't want to have that conversation with our significant other. Let me go eat something.
Whatever. We don't want to feel it because it's too uncomfortable.
So my thing is always like, okay, what's the behavior around the situation? Why am I doing this? Let me be aware. And I think all those factors have to go into the bigger picture for people.
But for me, I saw this episode called State of Weight that Oprah did. And she had a whole panel of doctors.
And after I saw this, I went and got tested for obesity genes. And I have – because I wondered why my whole life.
Like I can diet, exercise, do all the things. And I always told myself, oh, I just don't have enough willpower.
It's got to be my willpower. And I felt so much shame like around my weight fluctuating like my entire life.
For me, it started at 14. And when I did this test, I have two of the obesity genes.
And what I learned is that my body has the set point that no matter what, it's going to go back to. And it's literally not tied to willpower.
So I find what is happening fascinating because for probably 40, however long, it started when I was maybe 10, so maybe 35 years, I would shame myself and think it's a willpower thing and think it's my fault and think all these things. And it was the most freeing thing.
I feel like in the next year, I'm going to call it right now, I feel like in the next year, there is so much going on with people starting to be aware of like their body chemistry. One thing that Oprah brought up is she was saying she remembers doing her show when she said alcoholism is a disease.
And people are like, no, it's not. Just don't pick up the drink.
But that's kind of where people were. And we were talking about the parallel between that and weight now where people think, oh, just don't eat or just don't whatever, whatever it is.
You know what I mean? That people, these judgments people have, which I think in just a couple years are going to be so obviously antiquated and just unevolved because so much is happening with that. But for me, most of my life, I could make so much progress in areas around self-worth, around all of these things.
And still, I would have challenges feeling enough in my body. And I really feel like it is just this past year where I, no matter what size I am, I fully, like it doesn't consume my energy anymore worrying about it.
Thank goodness. Yeah, at all.
And I don't feel- So freeing. It's freeing, right? Because it's such a lie.
Yeah, it is. It's a lie that our weight determines our worth.
It's all of it's a lie. And I wrote a whole chapter on this in Worthy.
I wrote a chapter called Don't Wait on Your Weight because for most of my life, it was like I was waiting on my weight to go to the party, to all these things. I let it hold me back.
Where are you at in your life right now on just feeling so comfortable in your body? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I don't equate my, I'm trying not to equate my worth with my body.
Yeah. That I'm like, oh, this is the vehicle.
Yes. And like, you got to put gas in the car.
You got to go get, you know, maintenance. You got to figure it out.
Like, how do I make the vehicle run most efficiently? And I feel like feeling like you're worthy enough to even take care of yourself. Some people for many years, I didn't do that.
I'm like, Oh, no, it's fine. Like I have so much shame and guilt about it.
I'm not going to do it. And there's so much like, you know, medical shame with people who are in a different size body.
But if I don't attach my worth to my body, and it's just the vehicle, it's just like, how do do I make it work most efficiently then it's not emotional and it's like okay maybe I do need to take more magnesium or vitamin d or get on a particular weight loss medication or whatever whatever it means for someone there are days that I'm like oh yeah yeah great feeling good and then I'll see something I It's typically psychological. I'll see something.
I'll start to compare and despair with someone else. Someone's lost weight.
And I'm like, no, no, Chrissy, like you're not upset they've lost weight. Or you're not upset that you look different than you want what they have.
But you have to work at it just like they worked at it. So I have to sort of go into that.
But do you want that? I mean, I want to be able to go and do whatever I want to do. And physically sometimes, you know, like there's a weight limit on a zip line or there's a weight limit on a something or like a helicopter.
Not that I want to go on a helicopter because those things scare me. But whatever, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is.
I just don't want to not be able to experience life to the fullest because of a body that I'm in. So that, you know, those things are like always in the back of my head, but also just health generally, like longevity and quality of life.
So there are days that I'm like, I feel so great and good,

and I don't have to change. And there's sometimes I'm like, you know what, I wish that I could wear that.
I wish that they made clothes that look like that for like plus size women. And that's a whole other story from another time.
But, you know, it's really, I go in waves with it. And I don't know if that's societal pressures or if it's personal pressures or it's just what I think I'm supposed to look like or what I I want to be loved.
So I want people to find me attractive. You know, like I don't I think it's so layered and nuanced.
so I try to like go back to like okay is it because I said I was going to do something didn't follow through on it

and now I'm feeling like I try to like go back to like okay is it because I said I was going to do something didn't follow through on it and now I'm feeling like I have to attack myself and you know what I mean like it's it's so cunning it can be you know yeah so you know talking about things like that make us sick of resentment oh lack of forgiveness, you've shared that you have forgiven. Let me let you share this.
Where are you at when it comes to forgiving your stepfather? Well, he recently passed away. And it was really difficult because he was like the only father I really ever had.

Aside from my acting coach who was recently diagnosed with ALS and that is a whole other thing.

And so when he was in hospice, I was so compelled because he hadn't spoken to me since I wrote my book because he really felt like I threw him under the bus and so did his family. And I was like, but read the chapter, read the chapter about like, yes, these terrible things happen, but like, I'm so grateful for what you instilled, like so much discipline and work ethic and all these, nobody's all bad and nobody's all good.
And we're doing the best we best we can and so as an adult and when you're sort of faced with someone's mortality or you know they're in hospice and you don't know how long you're gonna have with them I just felt so compelled to write him a letter and but I was honest I was like you know like I was very hurt but I also love you very much and I hope that you can forgive me for anything that you might be upset about. And I forgive you because ultimately at the end of the day, I really do believe that people want to be good.
I do. I really believe that.
And I wasn't trying to absolve myself because I don't feel like I did anything wrong. I just spoke the truth in my book.
And that was hard enough for me because I didn't want, I wasn't trying to like exploit the situation. It was just my truth.
And for him to accept that like what he did and accept his actions, you know, responsibility for his actions. And then after he had passed away, well, so he was in hospice, and my sister read the letter to him while I was on FaceTime, and that was like the last person that he spoke to.
And he was like, thank you. He said thank you, and he said I love you.
And I was like, ooh, like that was very important for me. And then when we were cleaning out my childhood home where he lived, he actually had my book with a bookmarker in it.
And I was like, okay. So like he was trying, you know, like he really did try.
So yeah, sometimes we have to have grace and grace is for people who, I talk about this often, like grace is for people who like seemingly don't deserve it but need it the most and including ourselves of course so yeah that was like a very profound moment um to be able to apologize and also tell him that i loved him because i really do and i'm really grateful for him i don't don't know. I didn't know really a father figure because my dad wasn't around.
So yeah, it's wild. It's so wild.
Life. Life be lifin'.
Your biological dad, can you talk about him reentering your life? Yeah. Maybe right around or near the time you became famous.
And what was that like? What's happened since? How do you reconcile that? When we were trying to reconcile the relationship and I was trying to extend an olive branch. And what I discovered was that he's very congenialial he's very funny he likes to entertain like he always had people over and there were so many things what i realized after writing the book was like i was more like him than i ever thought and that was hard to discover because i was like oh oh, right.
Okay. So he wasn't all bad, even though it made me feel that way because he left and abandoned me.
And even after talking about that in the book and then the National Enquirer goes and speaks to him and he said that I abandoned him, I'm like in the world like he knows better he knows better and I know that he knows better and so that's why I can have forgiveness around the situation but like are you that desperate that you would need the money to like I don't know I guess it was just difficult because I felt like you abandoned me again for your own needs and your own wants and your own desires or for your need to feel justified in your actions. We all know what we do or don't do.
And we have to live with that. I know that he knew, but it was heartbreaking, especially like one of the first conversations we have.
He asks me like what I make per episode. And I'm like, really? And that's after seeing him like after reconciling.
Yeah. After trying to reconcile with him.
Yeah. And I'm like, is that OK? Could we have an honest conversation? Could I have said, is that all you care about? Or is it that you don't know how to ask me maybe another question? Or like, is it that you find so much value in monetary gain? Like, what is it? Like, why did you ask that? And I can only think of that now because in the moment I was like, are you serious? And I laughed it off.
But I wish I could have said, that actually hurt my feelings. I want to have a relationship with you.
And it feels like that's all you care about. Can you explain? Can you share why you asked me that? Of course, I didn't.
But all that to say, it was, yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult.
It's a weird, it's a weird dynamic. You've fully forgiven both your father and your stepfather? I don't, no, no.
I mean, I think mostly. Yeah.
Mostly. But I went to this really amazing therapy location in Nashville, outside of Nashville.
And. Was it on site? It was.
Life changing oh it was life-changing i love love love and i had done a movie that like really sort of i knew i shouldn't have done and i did it anyway because i committed to it and it was so difficult for me for many reasons and i was like i don't know if i want to act anymore and then i happened to run run into someone who knew Miles. And then I ran into Miles at the grocery store.
And I was like, okay,

I clearly need to be going to on site. And I'm so grateful I did because I was able to like,

really hash through some things about my father and my stepfather and a friend and

the movie and worth and all that. But what I know is that like, I'm doing the best I can, you know, but there's things that still come up.
But what was so beautiful was that there were two older gentlemen in my group because I did like a group intensive. And they were like, we would be so proud to be your dad.
And I said, oh my gosh, like I was sobbing. You know, like even if I went there just for that, it was like I really needed to hear that and reconcile that like no matter what I did or didn't do, it has nothing to do with me.
Whether my stepdad or my father could or couldn't, it has nothing to do with me. And that is what I think I'm dealing with.
I want to say it's more about just coming to terms with that because I always want to make it about me. And I'm like, am I narcissistic? Is something wrong with me? Like what? And I just have to not take it personally because it's not about me.
But it certainly feels that way a lot of the time. So Onsite was very instrumental in that process.
So I feel like every day I get to like move closer toward like I guess a complete forgiveness. I don't know if it will ever happen.
I don't know. But what I was getting at is there was this girl who's gorgeous, so funny, so talented.
She had this great relationship with her dad. Her dad was like madly like just engaged with her and love with her and like obsessed with her in like a beautiful, like healthy way.
And I was like, oh, my life would be so different if my dad loved me. My life would be different.
I would be a different woman. I'd walk into a room differently.
And then I realized like that's not necessarily true. And also she was there too.
She had her own issues. Like you're not exempt.
You're not exempt from issues because you look a certain way. But in my mind, if I looked a certain way, if I was treated differently, I'd look a certain way and I'd be treated differently but like sometimes I'm the lesson for people sometimes someone else is a lesson for me so yeah yeah maybe I'll eventually forgive completely but no I couldn't say 100% how did your mom react to the Well, I think she was proud that I wrote it.
Mm-hmm. I think that she was disappointed that she seemingly allowed that behavior.
Mm-hmm. You know, and it's difficult now because she had a stroke six years ago, and then she had lung so she has aphasia so she doesn't have a vocabulary she literally speaks in so it's like playing charades with your mom but before she had her stroke i was able to share some things with her that like really hurt my feelings and she was able to apologize and i didn't ever think I was going to hear I'm sorry for my mom.
Not because she wasn't capable of it. But my mom was like, tough.
I mean, clearly, she's gone through everything she's gone through and still kicking. Sassy as the day is long.
And so that was very healing for me that she was able to say she was sorry. So like I feel like she did even before she knew I was going to write the book.
And I do know that she's very proud of me. And that's all we want is our parents to be proud of us.
You know, to love us and be proud of us. So yeah, but I don't think she was, and I think that's why she really encouraged and like spoke up about my stepfather treating my younger sisters differently.
So yeah. Yeah.
Did you feel like the same kind of thing that maybe she should have chosen you?

Sure. Yeah.
Oh, God. I was just talking to my friend about that.
I'm like, I understand why she stayed with him because she needed a roof over our heads and it was safe and secure and he was a great provider. but there was a time where I,

oh, insecure and he was a great provider. But there was a time where I distinctly remember my stepdad didn't want me to live there anymore.
He thought I was too troublesome. Troublesome in the way of like me knowing what was happening.
I wasn't like I was, you know, some rebellious teenager. In fact, I was like the opposite.
the opposite I was such a good girl I'm like I will do everything I can to make you love me whatever I need to do I'll be a good girl I'll listen I'll close the door quietly I'll put the dishes away quietly like everything I can do for you to love me and still wasn't enough and he was, I guess, threatened by my awareness.

And so my mom was like, Chrissy, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know what to do anymore.
She's like, you're gonna have to call your father. And I was like, oh, I'm not, what am I gonna call him for? I haven't spoken to him in how long he doesn't want me.
And I remember he, I called him and he was like, yeah, you can can't be here either and my grandmother and I were very close and she was like I want you to live with me but she lives in a retirement community she couldn't have anybody there and um yeah I feel like that was such a distinct moment in my life and it's still still something I think about at 43 years old. And I, yeah.
Ooh, this chosen stuff is really a lot. It's so wild how you connected the dots to you because then you go into a profession where the best in the world are rejected constantly.
Yeah. Rejected constantly.
I'm like, oh, I know this. You know this.
Oh, cool, cool, cool. A lot of people don't realize we're attracted to what's familiar, what's comfortable.
Right. Oh, yeah.
Being in like a normal stable relationship, I'm like, what is this? Where's the shoe? Is it going to drop? What's going to happen? Where's the drama going to come? Like, I don't, do I create the drama? Oh, I should create the drama because I need the drama, you know, or you're not going to choose me. So let me just go ahead and self-sabotage because you're not going to choose me anyway.
So like, let me like push you away to see if you know how to stay. Like, let me, what can I do? Oh boy.
It's a lot. Worthiness.
Yeah. The greatest, greatest life journey.
It really is the greatest life journey. Yeah.
You know, And it affects every area of our lives. Every.
Every area. Yeah.
It can't not. There's so much more coming up in this episode.
You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you.
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And now more of this incredible conversation together. What role does faith play in your life? Oh, I don't think I'd be sitting in this chair if I didn't have, if I didn't believe in God, if I didn't have faith that there was someone bigger, greater and a different, like, and to know, like, there's something beyond this because you put so much stock into your worthiness or your value and what you acquire or what job you have or how much money you have in the bank account or how much you weigh or whatever.
Yeah, but my grandmother instilled faith in me at a very young age and that was so important. And I would go to church on my own because I was looking for something.
I'm like, help me understand what this is all about and this pain or this sorrow or this feeling discarded by your own family you know like

there there has to be a rhyme or a reason and ultimately like if I only really need to be

loved by God I'm good I'm good but I think that's a hard lesson you know and um for me that that

means something to me so yeah I mean I pray every day all day because I need to have that conscious

Let's go. that that means something to me so yeah I mean I pray every day all day because I need to have that conscious contact with with God for me um who I call God um and I want to just note that like I say that only because I don't want to offend people but then people are like but you can't you know denounce God by not you know and so I just do it because I don't want anybody to ever feel a certain way.
I'm a people pleaser. But my relationship, who I choose to call God.
So, yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the reason why I wrote a children's book with Bradley and needing to like bolster that self-esteem and self-confidence that my grandmother gave me at a young age and knowing that like you have to treat the soil and I didn't always get that and so I'm like oh how can we impart that in a book you know and then of course the children's album so yeah faith is very very important it's like the most important thing which also people ask me like how do you navigate Hollywood with that with that thought and that and your faith and I'm like I wouldn't have any of this I'd I wouldn't have any of this if I didn't like it's not for who am I like no like I'm not any different than anybody else you know like I'm no better I'm no worse I'm equal but there's a bigger picture and there's a much bigger picture at hand for sure, for me, what I believe in. Yeah.
When you're acting or you're singing or you're writing your books, do you feel like God flows through you? Oh, yeah. Or do you ask him to? Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. All the time.
I'm I'm like, please, Jesus. Please, God.
Everybody, just help me. Because I don't want to do it from an ego place.
Yeah. Like, I don't want to do it because I want an accolade or I want approval.
I'm like, what? Everything always like, what is my intention? Why am I doing this? What is the why? Like, why? And for me, like with the children's book, it was really like, I wish I had a book like this when I was a kid. You know, I and it's also sort of a little homage to my grandmother and what what she cultivated in me.
And if it wasn't for my grandma, I still know that she's praying for me like storm in the heavens every day for me, because there are so many times I'm like, how did I get through this? Or how did I navigate this?

You know?

But yeah, I definitely ask for help.

How do you know God exists?

You know, that's a question that I even ask like my friends, like we have these big conversations.

It's so weird because like I could say like I know because I feel it yeah um but i also know because of like i see it i see it in people and in situations and things that i mean even my um brother-in-law's grandfather was he had a massive heart attack and they were like there's no way that like he's coming back from this and and he has and I'm like okay so if I choose to believe in miracles and believe that that is God and the hand of God like that's what I choose to believe but I I've just seen so many things happen yeah like I'm like how can I deny it yeah like what how could you deny it so I guess I guess that's the answer. How does, do you ever hear him talking to you or feel it like still small voice intuition stuff? Oh, sure.
Have you ever heard him audibly or seen? Sometimes it's through other people, you know, or like I'll ask a question and I'm like, God, I need you to be so like precise, like point my head in the direction, like whatever, whatever, stand on the shoulder, like whatever, make it clear. And certainly somebody will say something.
I'm like, oh, wait, what? Wait, was that? And then I'll question it. I'm like, no, no, that was it.
That was it. Like it just came from somebody else.
Like, I definitely feel like I've heard it in a small voice. But then I don't trust myself.
So then I'm like, if it comes from someone else, I'm like, oh, maybe that's what it is. Or if it's, you know, continual, and I keep hearing it, I'm like, oh, okay, okay, okay.
All right, all right, all right. You know, sometimes I just need to be told over and over to believe it, which is hard.
Do you? Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
I went through like two decades of doubting God exists. And someone had given me this advice that, why don't you try...
If he created the whole universe, she said, what makes you think he can't handle your doubt? Try praying and telling him you're doubting him and just show up in your life, to prove to you he exists, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And so for all these years, I started praying.
When I'd pray for my friends or health or whatever was going on, I'd finish it and say, and God, by the way, I'm doubting you exist. So if you could please show up in my life and prove me wrong, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'd be so grateful.
In Jesus' name, amen. And literally, Chrissy, like it didn't happen that day, but like over time, there have been so many times in my life, I mean, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he exists.
And I feel like I remember, you know, I'm adopted and I went through these many years of trying to search for my birth mom and my birth dad. And I finally found my birth mom.
And then I spent the last decade, even still to this day, sometimes I will get online just searching for him, just trying to find who he could be, where he... And I have little tiny bits of information.
And after a few years of this, there was a particular moment in my life where I was really down. I was in a lot of pain.
I was like, well, am I ever going to find my dad? Am I ever ever going to find my dad? Like, and when I do, will he love me? Because I also have other people in my life like you who have abandoned me more than once who are family. Like in that double abandonment, that's the, that you brought it, that you had mentioned earlier.
That's just, and so I was in this really tough spot in my life. And, and, and I remember one night I was up overnight just searching, going down a rabbit hole online.
And I was in tears. And all of a sudden it hit me so hard that I am spending all this time searching for my father.
But I know who my real father is. And it was like this moment I felt like take over my whole body, like so where it was like, I'm okay, I'm held, I know who my real father is.
And it almost felt like I felt this weight of what am I searching for and why kind of lift, like I already know in a way what I need to know. And it made me feel hopeful.
And just sharing it now, I'm almost thinking of everyone who maybe doesn't have the kind of relationship they wish they did or doesn't even know their father. And it's like I feel so blessed for faith in my life because just like you, I do not know what I'd be doing without it.

I can tell you with a billion percent certainty I would not have grown a billion dollar business from my living room.

I would not have been able to endure the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of rejections if I did not have faith in my life, if I didn't know who I am, if I didn't know who's walking into every room with me, I wouldn't have. So yeah, I think we share that.
So good. Will you tell me about, okay, you are this multi-talented force, this multi-talented force.
Number one New York Times bestselling author. I love this book.
When I talk to God, I talk about you. We walked into the show today and your music is playing and we're all singing.
You seem to do it all. Can you talk about now in your life, just the role that music is playing because you're in Nashville now and releasing music and just sort of like kind of share with us a glimpse into the world, the heart, the soul, the essence right now at this moment that is Chrissy Metz.

Well, it's interesting because it's uncomfortable to hear myself sing, but I love singing so much.

I love it so much.

Like I would do it if I never got paid.

I would do it by myself.

I love music.

I love listening to music. I love creating it.
I love writing music. And it's difficult because I was with a label for a few years and I was about to go on tour.
And then that didn't happen because of a pandemic and everybody was in that situation. And then it was like we never got on the right page together.
And I felt like I wasn't chosen again. And so leaving the label, which is difficult, you know, trying to be an independent artist, I'm choosing myself.
And not because I think I'm an amazing singer, not because I'm like, oh, I'm going to make millions of dollars just because I want to write music and I want to share it with people. And it might not look the way I thought it was going to look or I'm not, you know, some big country commercial radio success.
And who knows if I ever will be, who knows if I'll ever have like a number one single. I don't know.
But I know that I love making music and that's what I want to do. And I want to write with people who music means something to them.
And that's how I want to be in business with everybody, whether I'm writing a coming of age story or a one woman show or whatever it is that I want to do. I want to do it with people that like are choosing me, who get it, who want to put the extra energy or the effort into it, who believe in me.
Because, you know, we want people to believe in us. And so I'm having a hard time with that right now because I feel like I should have a certain amount of success.
But there's also this idea that like, oh, not every actor thinks that she can sing. Why do actors have to come into the music business? And I'm like, oh, like, why not? Why can't people want to do multiple things? Like, we're not one thing.
Could you imagine? There's just no way anybody is one thing. And so even here you say like multi-talented.
I'm like, oh, this is so creep. Like that is cringe for me.
That makes me. Do you believe you are? What is talent? You know what I mean? Like, what is talent? Is it the ability to do something? Is that talent? Because I think talent has this connotation of like, not everybody can do it.
And I don't know if that's necessarily true. Because like, is it just because it was cultivated? Was it a gift given to me? Is it, yeah, I'm really having like this weird, these weird questions about it.
And one of my vocal coaches, like, she's like, what do you admire in Adele? And I'm like, oh my God, that she's like funny and that she's also like very deep and very sincere, but like sings about, she's like, yeah, you admire that because you have that. And I'm like, huh? What? What are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about.
And she's like, Chrissy, what? Like what you admire in other people, it's typically what you see in yourself, which what is that concept? What the heck? And so I don't know. It's just, I don't know why I feel so cringe about it.
Do you have an issue with the word talent because you feel like it's judgmental and exclusive? Yeah. Exclusionary? I think so.
Maybe then a good definition is like talent is like channeling. Okay.
Right? Okay. Okay.
Okay. You know what? Maybe that's a better thing.
You know how like the best dancer in the dance for any party is not the most technically trained. Sure.
They're like the one who most fully commits. Yeah.
Or makes you feel something. Yes.
Makes you feel something like just fully like heart open, soul first, connected. Yeah.
Maybe's a good definition of talent. Yeah.
And I would say you do that when you sing, when you write, when you act. Do you feel that you do? I'd like to be present.
So if I'm hopefully making somebody feel something, then that makes me very happy. I don't want my ego involved in thinking like, because for some time, you guys, I literally woke up one day and I was like, I'm never going to be Adele.
I know, I know. I was like, my friend was like, you don't want what, you're not Adele.
Like, Adele's not you and you're not Adele. I'm like, I know, but like, I'm never going such a weird I can't explain and I was like I don't need to be her she's her and we get to have her and we get to celebrate her and love her but like what is that about like do I have a need to want to be the best and why do I need that I don't need that can I just like share what I want to share and And to your point, how do you measure the best?

Right.

Is it vocal quality?

Right. Or is it what people feel?

Yeah.

Or is it what they connect to?

Right.

Can't measure it.

Right.

You can't measure that.

And like the comparing despairing thing is just for the birds anyway.

It doesn't make any sense.

So, yeah, I just I do it and I remind myself I do it, do whatever I want to do creatively because I love it.

Because it's hard.

You have to love something in order to continue with it because otherwise, forget it.

You give up because you're like, it doesn't mean enough to me.

So, yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to do that.

And I always try to come from a place that I'm feeling and I want to be authentic.

And, yeah, and I just love it. I love music so much.
I love being creative. So I'm just trying to do that.
If you imagined turning down the volume on all of your self-doubt and your thoughts and like turning up the volume on your soul and your knowing, what would a one-woman Christy Metz show look like?

Well, I think it would really be about the highs and lows and the in-between

and what in my life shaped me to be the woman that I am.

And humor, a lot of humor, a lot of just fun, but also like really heavy emotional stuff. And I mean, that's sort of the name of, that's the nature of life, you know, is the duality of like, when something really exciting happens, something really difficult might happen.
Like my mom was coming to be my date for the Emmys and she had a stroke the day before she was leaving. And you're like, that is, I mean, that's life, life on life's terms.
And that is hard, but everybody can relate to it because we're not exempt from the hardships, but we're also not exempt from the joy. So I think it would just be like, yeah, all of that.
That's what I want it to be. So we'll see.
Well, you talk about fun. I remember after I did a thousand live shows on QVC for eight years, I wore my hair the same every time.
I remember not being able to wait to change up my look when I left and all that. And when we were starting our conversation today, you had this great big smile.

And I just noticed on your teeth, okay, we've got to talk about this because this might be

the coolest thing ever.

Oh, boy.

Okay.

I'm embarrassed.

So on your tooth, your second from the front, can you explain this beautiful bedazzling situation? Yes. So when I was a teenager, first of all, like I wanted to do all sorts of things.
Like I wanted a tattoo. I wanted to shave the back of my head.
Like I wanted all these cool things in the 90s. You know, there are all sorts of trends.
And I really wanted a tooth gem. And my mom was like, absolutely not.
No, no. And I'm like, but why? Will you explain a tooth gem? Sure.
For anyone who's watching, what is that? They're listening and they don't know. Sure.
So typically it's like a type of crystal. You can get a diamond if you'd like.
This I think is like a type of crystal. It's just placed on whatever tooth you want with dental glue.
So it's not permanent. You don't like drill a hole in your tooth or anything.
It's not drilled into your teeth right now. No, no, no.
It's absolutely removable. And typically they only last, I mean they can last from varying times of a month or a year or whatever.
Okay. But it's just dental glue.
It's like what you would put with for braces. Okay, got it.
Just adhere to the tooth. Not permanent.
Okay. And so when we were, I was doing the Today Show.
And I literally look like a school teacher walking into this really cool Soho little shop. It's like a tattoo tooth gem shop.
And this really cool English girl was like, okay, right. So have you had a tooth gem before? And I was like, no.
And she's like, right. Okay.
So, and I'm like, but what is going to happen? Like I'm scared, whatever. And I just wanted it forever.
And so she's like, it's so easy. Just going to apply it five seconds, whatever.
I'm like, okay, great. And then of course my tour manager at the time makes fun of me because he thinks I look like Joe Pesci from Home Alone as the police officer.
So whatever. Have I wanted a gold tooth before? Yes.
Chris Stapleton has one. He makes it look amazing.
And I think Billie Eilish does. Although I'm like, you know, Chrissy, let's sort of.
And I think I have to take it off because I'm doing a film in February in the UK. But yeah, I've just I've always wanted it.
And because it's not permanent, it feels fun. Can I see? Yeah.
It's so cool. It's like, bling.
Yeah. Some people are like, you have a, oh, what is that? What is that? Let me see again.
Let me see. I literally was just telling my sister, like, maybe I take it off now.
And she's like, no, why? I love it. It's so pretty.
It literally looks like a diamond on your tooth. Yeah.
And they have like different, you can do gold, you can do like shapes, you can do different cuts of an actual, I decided to do, and there's different varying sizes. And some people have them like on multiple teeth, but I was like, I just want like a little accent.
Like, I don't know. So yeah, I just, because I was Kate Pearson for six years, I was like, I'm going to get my nose pierced.
I'm going to get tooth gem. I'm going to, I'm going to grow my hair out.
I'm going to change it this color. I just, because I was Kate Pearson for six years.
Yeah. I was like, I'm going to get my nose pierced.
I'm going to get to the gym. I'm going to, I'm going to grow my hair out.
I'm going to change it this color. Like just, you know, options.
All the stuff out right now. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Why not? And because I wasn't, I wasn't committed to any role. I could do that.
So. Yeah.
Yeah. I love it.
Yeah. Did you do anything else like wild? Just grow your hair out? No.
No. I mean, I got my nose pierced again.
I had it done when I was young. But no, nothing crazy.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, nothing. I don't think too crazy.
Do you smile more with your tooth, Jim? I certainly don't have a problem showing it. Yes.
That's for sure. Yes.
But it's very funny when people are like, I don't, is that, every time I'll do like a picture,

they're like, what is, is it food?

I'm like, no, it's my tooth gem.

It's my tooth gem. Yeah, exactly.

It's my tooth gem.

I'm like, you know, you put an earring in your ear.

Yeah.

So I just put one on my tooth.

And it's so cool that it's like, you can actually just take it off when you want.

Yeah.

Do you have to get it removed at the dentist?

Sure.

I mean, you can.

Or at a tooth gem store?

Yeah, you can. It's just, you know.
Yeah. How many tattoos do you have to get it removed at the dentist sure i mean you can yeah you can you can it's just you know yeah how many tattoos do you have just three three yeah i got this one with my my sisters so like one of each of like for each of us xoxo and then i have a little anchor that was um ironically my dad was and my brother were in the navy but it's really about like the symbolism of like no matter what like you're anchored in like who you are no matter how rough the seas get it's just sort of that and then i have like a a treble clef bass clef like in the shape of a heart on my ankle for music so do you think you'll get more i don't know you know it's funny because they're painful people who say they aren't are lying they're like oh it's relaxing i'm like what this little baby thing i was like okay okay okay i don't think i could do this and my sister she actually got one like a tribute to my stepfather on her arm and i'm like how i don't get like how and then i have friends who have them everywhere but um yeah i don't know I think I do want actually I do think I want one that um I just don't know when I do actually yeah that's probably the last one I'll get what is it it's gonna be um well I don't know where I'm gonna put it but um love is the answer because I feel like that is always the answer for me.
to put it, but love is the answer.

Because I feel like that is always the answer for me. Love is the way or love is the answer.
I think maybe love is the way. But I think if we all came from that, we'd all be taken care of, you know, that all would be good.
So, yeah, we'll see. I'll keep you posted.
Perfect. So, okay.
So you say paving the road for other women and men who know they're destined for greatness, but they don't believe it yet is something that you're called to do. Yeah.
Can you share a bit about that? Yeah. So many people are going to be listening right now.
They're going to be listening to you, listening to me, and they don't know how to believe they have greatness inside of them.

I know. They're destined for it.

Well, I mean, I believe that the miracle to be born, the things that have to come together for a person to make it onto the earth is so miraculous, I can't wrap my head around it.

So certainly you're called to this plane of existence for a purpose.

Like you're purposeful just being born.

And I also feel like even if you never accomplish anything, like that's enough. Like you're enough.
But if you'd like to, and you're purposeful, then you're deserving of chasing that. And that if one person can do it, and we're all equal, then why couldn't somebody else do it and why can't somebody else pursue it and again my life doesn't make sense so if i can inspire people to know that like if it didn't make sense for me just just say okay it doesn't make sense for for you either but it's gonna happen and it can happen and i do that like, what we give our attention to is what we create, good and bad.
And why not make it positive? Why not pursue what you want and what you love and you're worthy of it. Like you really, really are.
Like I know that you know that. but I think we sometimes need to be reminded and sometimes we do need people to believe in ourselves before we can believe in us

before we can believe in us before we believe in ourselves. And I know I did, certainly, and I think that was my grandmother.
But there's somebody that will. There's somebody that does, even if we don't even know them.
Yeah, I just, I just, like you are. You are worthy of it you are deserving of it really really really like i really just strongly believe that and it took me a long time too because as you know my story and not that i don't doubt that and have questions but like go back to how purposeful you are because you're here it's not for not it can't be like it just can't be um and because we are here for i think each other as well like when you get to be of service it's so fulfilling it's so rewarding so for me i'd love to like aspire other writers or musicians or actors and just be supportive of their journeys.

Like I'd love to have a production company at some point, maybe even a music label or

a record label of sorts, just because I love talent so much.

I love people.

I love, let's not say talent, the ability to channel.

I love that, you know, people pursuing what their passions are. So I'd like to, to do that for sure for people.
You need to talk about purpose. And I think it's like so many people look for their purpose in, you know, something inside their job or this or that.
And I have found for so many people, it's like, it's like when we use the things we've made it through through to help someone else make it through, we find this deep sense of purpose, right? And I'm thinking about even just the millions of people that you help make it through their stuff because you're able to play this role based on a lot of things you've gone through in your life. You're able to understand how a character might feel who doesn't feel enough or doesn't feel chosen or has different, you know, and then people are now healing through you and it's like you're helping other people make it through.
And now I'm hearing you even talk about the experience of parting with your label and now maybe starting your own because you love talent. It's just such a beautiful evolution.

And I think it's so... I used to...
I did... I were talking about this earlier off camera that a lot of people don't even know this at this point in my life, but I was in the first season of Big Brother, which was on CBS primetime six nights a week.
It was wild. I remember getting off that show.
I remember moving to LA. By the way, I was the worst actor.
I thought, oh, let me try to act for a minute. The worst.
No, I'm not even kidding. This will make you laugh.
I don't know if I've ever shared this story. I thought I want, I'll try acting.
I was like 21. And so I made a lot of friends in LA, lived with different actors.
Some of them were on big shows at the time. And I'm going to audition after audition after audition, never getting a callback, never getting a callback.
And this was this moment in time where reality TV was like brand new. So all these big Hollywood agents wanted to rep every reality star because it's the very beginning.
They didn't know what was going to happen. Chrissy, I was so bad.
This is how bad I was. Yeah, I'm the worst actor in the world.
So no joke. You know how they send down casting breakdowns to agencies, which is like, you know, so-and-so has a commercial.
They want this type of a character, et cetera, et cetera. After me getting rejection after rejection after rejection for so long acting.
And you know when you're bad, like you're just, what I couldn't do was feel in flow and channel. For whatever reason, I could not.
And I was just trying so hard to do something that just wasn't meant for me. And finally, I felt like my agents are going to give up on me, right? This is a true story.
Finally, a casting thing got sent down that AT&T was doing a commercial and the character description was like Jamie from Big Brother. That was the description.
And so my agents are like, yes, they send me out on it. I go out to audition for it.
I don't get a callback past the first round to play someone who they thought I was. That is how bad of an actor I was.
So that was not destined for me. But that's how bad I was.
So I never did that. I never acted again after that first year in LA.
But what I wanted to ask you, or bring up rather, was in that experience, I remember this. I remember being around some of my friends at the time who had been on big shows.
And I remember they had a similar experience that I had because I just walked off of Big Brother having been on CBS Primetime six nights a week for three months. And I hadn't earned any fame certainly, but all of a sudden I was getting this 15 minutes of fame.
So everyone's coming up to me. And the question they asked me over and over was the same question that people asked my friends who were on different shows at the time.
Well, what are you doing now? Well, what are you doing now? Every single day to the point where I felt like I had to have some kind of answer. And it became, what are you doing now?

Became like my least favorite question of all time ever. Yeah.
And what's wild is because I watched how it impacted. For me, I was brand new to this experience, but I watched my friends who many of them had been actors for a decade or two.
and I watched when every time they got asked this question,

it was as if who they were wasn't enough, that they needed to have some kind of answer of something they're doing now or something they're doing next. And I just watched it and it felt like it just chipped away over and over and over.
And for me, having gone through it, having done this show and then being so terrible at acting and having people come out and say, what are you doing now? And I'm like, I'm auditioning. What are you doing? I'm auditioning.
And over and over and over. And it helped me kind of realize this lesson that, oh my gosh, in our society, we're kind of taught to be human doings and feel like we have to be doing something or have an answer to what we're doing versus actually learning how to be.
And therefore, we perpetually, when we're only focused on doing, we perpetually feel like it's never enough. Because even if we're doing...
Like right now, I'm launching my book, Worthy. And in live interviews, I get asked, well, what's next? What are you doing next? I'm like, I haven't even launched this now.
It's like people's favorite question. And so now I cannot, I will never, ever, ever ask it because what I've learned is, and I spent like two decades just overachieving and trying to fill that, get a great answer to that question because I thought that's what would make me happy, only to realize it doesn't.
And it's all about the things you and I have been talking about this whole episode of learning to be, learning to love yourself so that you can have the depth of love with others, learning to feel enough yourself so that when you sing at the Grand Ole Opry or you have a hit TV show or whatever that version of your goal is in your life, it's like it's only when you're able to love yourself do you actually feel enough when you're experiencing all these awesome things you're going after. Like that's the thing.
Never like, what are you doing next? But like, how are you? You know what I mean? How are you? So I just want to say thank you so much to you for sharing how you are, how you are. Because we all know all

the things you do all day long. And a lot of people maybe celebrate you for that because

that's what they're trying to strive for in their own life because they haven't yet learned,

oh, wait, the real victory is just as I am right now fully enough which to your point you are i am everyone listening is yes um so beautiful so powerful yeah thank you oh no thank you so much chrissy thank you for having me it's been emotional and fun and just good to see you well every person who comes on the Jamie Kern Lima show gets a special gift. Every person.
And I have one for you. So this is for you.
Okay. Oh, cute.
So we have matching. So we match.
So we match. So would you write on mine and I'll write on yours? Of course.
Anything? Okay, let me take it. Yes.
Oh, my God. This is cute.
This is cute. I started wearing these longer Spanx, by the way, and now they're showing under here.
I gotta like hike them up a little bit. Okay.
Yeah. When you walked in in sneakers and a dress.
And I'm sitting here in sneakers and a dress. I got so happy.
It's just the best. It's the best, right? Like, you know, we like the best of both worlds.
It's just like the best. I love when you sing.
I learned that from friends of mine that are singers and artists, et cetera, I've learned now, don't just ask anyone on the spot. So I held back.
I held back. You have the most beautiful voice, by the way.
And I love that you just sang. So now I feel like, okay, Chrissy Mett's officially sang.
Chrissy Mett sang on the show. I wrote two different messages.
I wrote, you are loved and you are worthy. Oh, thank you.
That's funny because I put, you are a stunning inspiration. Oh.
Yeah, that's funny. I love them.
You are a stunning inspiration. Aw.
Thank you. What a cute little thing I got.
I hope you love them. Mostly a reminder of something that's very important.
So thank you. That's very sweet.
Thank you for being here. Oh, no.
Thank you. I feel like we just hung out, but there are people in there living room.
I know. That's how I feel too.
I'm like, well, everybody knows everything about me now. Thank you so much for joining me today.
And before you go, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You, right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy.
You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world. And it is an honor to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
Here, I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need and blossom what you choose and journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You are worthy.
You are loved. You are love.
And I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
If you love this episode, you want to make sure to subscribe. Click on the notifications so you'll be the first to get the very next episode.
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If this episode impacted you and you want more, click here. Thank you.