1197: CBD | Skeptical Sunday

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Welcome to Skeptical Sunday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher Jessica Wynne.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

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Topics like why the Olympics are kind of a sham, why tipping makes no sense, banned foods, GMOs, toothpaste, crystal healing, diet pills, and energy drinks.

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Today on Skeptical Sunday, CBD, it's everywhere.

It's in CBD-infused lotions at Walgreens, gas station gummies, lattes at the local coffee shop.

It's sold as the solution to everything from acne to anxiety.

Some claim it treats insomnia, chronic pain, multiple sclerosis, diabetes, even cancer.

But what actually is CBD?

Will it get you high?

Is it legal?

Is it a miracle drug?

or just marijuana's boring friend who happens to have a great PR team.

Its soaring popularity and cure-all reputation, especially among wellness junkies, is frankly something to be skeptical about.

Today, writer and researcher Jessica Wynne is here to sort the facts from the fads and the science from the snake, or I guess CBD oil.

Welcome, Jess.

Have you been using your CBD-infused pillow spray that smells like a rotten yoga mat?

No, but I imagine that would make me dream about mold.

I've tried a few overpriced CBD drinks from the local cafe, though.

Yeah, I've tried CBD drinks.

I've tried CBD lattes like i joked about in the beginning i've had like cbd sodas and cbd soaps and cbd i kind of went down a rabbit hole and if people offer it to me or in the past if people offered it to me i would do it and i guess every time i've ingested or smoked marijuana i've sort of accidentally done cbd right so what exactly is cbd in the first place cbd stands for cannabidiol it's one of over a hundred cannabinoid compounds and cannabinoids aren't just in cannabis They show up in lots of plants like cacao, hops, kava, black truffles, and even carrots.

Wow, carrots.

So is that why rabbits are so twitchy and paranoid?

They're stoned from their carrot binges.

That's so strange.

Maybe.

I mean, it's like nature's little secret snack attack.

Yeah.

So when we're eating fancy mushrooms, we're basically micro-dosing weeds.

Should I be questioning my life choices at dinner?

Not quite, but yeah, cannabinoids are common, and we barely understand what most of them do.

The most famous cannabinoid is, of course, THC.

Because that's the one that gets us high, right?

Right.

And CBD doesn't.

But to really understand CBD, you've got to stop thinking of it as just weed light.

CBD and THC, they have the same makeup.

There's 21 carbon, 30 hydrogen, and 2 oxygen.

But their atoms are arranged differently.

So it's really important to understand here that The number of atoms alone does not define the properties of a chemical.

It's how those atoms are arranged.

I see.

So chemical cousins?

Sort of.

I mean more like maybe twins with very different personalities.

You know, in the case of CBD and THC, the atom arrangement causes different effects on your endocannabinoid system.

Okay, what is the endo-candy bionic?

What's that?

So the endocannabinoid system.

Endo means self-produced.

So it's literally cannabinoids we produce naturally.

And it's a little-known network that helps regulate our mood, pain, sleep, immunity, inflammation.

Okay, so all the good stuff.

But how does it work?

What does it do to us?

So your unique chemistry plays a significant role in how you respond to cannabinoids.

The endocannabinoid system has two main receptors.

CB1 is found in the brain and CB2 in the body.

And THC binds to both, which is why it affects your mind and your body.

CBD doesn't bind directly to either.

It just kind of nudges along the good stuff CB2 does.

So it stands to reason that taking in external sources of CBD could have physiological effects on your body.

Okay, so CBD does not affect the brain?

Not like THC.

THC binds hard to both CB1 and CB2 receptors, which is why there's a wide range of effects when you smoke weed or take THC.

You know, it increases your appetite to, it can cause paranoia.

And CBD is more of like a background player.

It stops an enzyme from breaking down a natural cannabinoid you make called anadamide, also known as the bliss molecule.

I see.

So the bliss molecule, well, by the way, that sounds like a vape cartridge flavor, bliss molecule.

I know, I know, but the bliss molecule, it's real and it breaks down fast.

So we don't walk around perpetually high.

CBD slows that breakdown so anadamide sticks around longer and chills us out.

And that has nothing to do with THC.

No, no.

Your body knows the difference.

And research suggests that CBD interacts with several receptors, but research is young, so the early science isn't really giving us the full picture.

The confusion is common in pop culture, and Trey Kennedy actually has a really funny bit about it.

If you don't know what CBD is, it's like if essential oils had a weird cousin that lived in a van.

It's like decaf weed.

So it's like decaf weed.

So why did CBD's popularity blow up recently?

It kind of does feel like it came out of nowhere.

I mean, everybody knew about weed since, well, since forever in our lifetime anyway, and CBD, I don't know, seems like kind of a 2010 plus thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, scientists didn't discover CB1 until 1988 when they found it in rats.

And the endocannabinoid system wasn't confirmed in humans until the 1990s.

So you're not far off.

So they just didn't know even had the same system as the rats.

Yeah, exactly.

And then the real shift came in the research in 2018 when the farm bill federally legalized hemp.

Yes, okay.

Hemp.

The stuff that's been used to make fabrics and ropes for literally thousands of years.

That wasn't legal.

How do you make that work?

No, it was banned in the 20th century thanks to the DuPont company wanting to control textiles in the 30s.

And then the Nixon-era war on drugs kept it illegal.

Hemp kind of got lumped in with marijuana.

It was made a Schedule I drug.

And Schedule I drugs are substances that have high potential for abuse.

They're not approved for any medical use.

We're talking heroin, MDMA, cocaine.

It was...

total political theater to make hemp illegal.

So what's the difference between hemp, marijuana, THC, and CBD?

Because this is sort of, everyone just calls it all weed, right?

It sort of all falls under that umbrella.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, it's all cannabis, but

legally, hemp is cannabis with less than 0.3% THC, and that makes it non-psychoactive and legal.

Marijuana, legally, is cannabis with THC levels over that 0.3%,

and it's still federally illegal, and CBD can be extracted from either.

Okay, so hemp won't get you high, but it still does something, right?

Maybe?

That's the idea.

I mean, you'll hear the refrain needs more research a lot with CBD, but some evidence shows it might make you feel relaxed, a little sleepy, and maybe even help with pain.

Okay, that sounds...

somewhat psychoactive.

Technically anything that affects mood or behavior is psychoactive.

Caffeine Caffeine is, so is nicotine.

But it's contested if CBD should be classified as psychoactive for strictly like legal purposes.

You know, no one should get a DUI for drinking an espresso.

Same goes for taking CBD.

And recent studies conclude that CBD alone is unlikely to significantly impair daily functioning or workplace performance.

But the thing is, the products labeled as CBD often also contain THC, even when we don't expect it.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

By popular request.

Yeah, I've had this happen.

A surprise hit of THC, not fun, could cause real problems.

You know, you take your CBD, I don't know, matcha latte thingamajig, and then, you know, you're hanging out and you realize I shouldn't drive home.

I know.

And a small amount of THC in a CBD product.

It's not typically problematic like that, but studies show a a single instance of consuming CBD that's just 0.39% THC in it, which is just a little bit above that 0.3 threshold, can result in a positive drug test for THC.

So CBD products could mess with your workplace drug test or roadside traffic stops, and larger amounts can cause that high, which might, you know, make you land in some trouble.

Damn, that's crazy.

I've gotten higher from a workout than any time I've ever really taken CBD.

Like, CBD is cool, but have you heard of leg day?

Don't runners experience a legit high as well when they do their thing, right?

The runner's high, is that a real, that's not just a euphemism, right?

It's so funny you say that because I was just reading it.

It used to be thought that runner's high feeling after a good workout was endorphins.

But it turns out from all this new research, it's actually the endocannabinoid system blasting out that bliss molecule.

Motivation to go to the gym or the dispensary, I guess.

Or the dispensary and then the gym.

So the CBD products, they can be confusing because there's so many different types and like ratios and stuff like that.

Look at the labels.

It's confusing to me.

It's so confusing.

And you have to do the homework to understand the labels.

So in the world of CBD, there's three types of extracts.

So there's isolates, which that's just pure CBD.

Then there's broad spectrum, which is CBD with other cannabinoid compounds, but not THC.

And then there's full spectrum, which is the whole plant: CBD, THC, everything.

The bottle I have here is full spectrum lower THC CBD oil, which means there's THC in here, you know, at some degree.

And all this CBD, how do they make it?

I mean, you know, there's no wizard involved.

I assume this is good chemistry.

Right.

I mean, it's sort of like sciencey gardening, I guess.

Yeah.

You know, first grow hemp, then you extract the CBD using methods like CO2 extraction, which uses pressurized carbon dioxide to extract compounds from the hemp plant.

Pressurized carbon dioxide.

Is that liquid?

Exactly.

And there's other solvents like ethanol that can work too, but CO2 is the most common.

And then these solvents absorb oils and flavors of the hemp.

Then the CO2 converts back to gas and it leaves behind that concentrated CBD.

Oh, interesting.

So is this like the hemp oil they sell at Whole Foods or is this a different process?

No, and that's another common confusion, right?

Hemp oil is cold-pressed from just the hemp seeds.

CBD comes from the flowers and the leaves, and that's what's all rich in the cannabinoids.

I see.

So grow it, extract it, eat it or smoke it or drink it or whatever.

Almost.

There's one other step.

So after extraction, it needs to be refined.

to remove gunk like waxes or chlorophyll.

I see.

And if it's an isolate, it's further purified through things like chromatography, which is a lab technique used to separate a mixture's components.

Alternatively, chemically identical synthetic CBD is made in labs through chemical reactions, but it's not well regulated and often has a different molecular structure than hemp-derived CBD, and it gives you different effects.

So it's recommended to steer clear of the synthetics.

Yeah, that sounds kind of scary.

Yeah.

I never really trust those things because, I mean, look, maybe that's an anti-science standpoint because I don't understand understand it.

But when you say, oh, it's synthetic, unless it's the same thing for sure, they go, oh, it's the same thing, except we chopped off a couple hydrogen atoms, but it does the same thing.

It's like, well, wait a minute.

I don't want to find out in 20 years those two extra hydrogen atoms was the reason this wasn't cancerous in one form and is in another.

Exactly.

Again, you can tell I'm not a chemist and some chemist is going to be like, dude, calm down.

It's fine.

Chemistry is fragile, though.

I mean, that's a valid concern.

Partially because also.

If you're not making it from the natural stuff, and I know there's like the naturalism or appeal to nature fallacy where natural is better, but it's kind of like, wait, is it cheaper this way?

Because if you're doing it because it's cheaper, does that mean you're cutting corners in other places where maybe you shouldn't be?

I don't know.

That's definitely the main reason they do it.

It's cost effective.

Yeah.

So that's more of what worries me versus like, hey, you can make this molecule.

Cause like they synthesize insulin.

And if I were diabetic, I wouldn't be like, no, I want real insulin.

Okay, Hannibal Lecter, calm down.

You can get the synthetic and it's totally fine.

But they're not going, let's make the cheapest damn insulin we can, even if there's a little bit of gasoline in it, right?

But they're doing that kind of thing with CBD.

I remember, or at least with certain synthetic drugs, like I remember hearing about how people were making their own vape cartridges.

This is another skeptical Sunday entirely, but they were making their own vape cartridges and it's like, oh yeah, this guy just uses butane or something because it's cheaper than the other thing.

And people are inhaling tons of this.

cheap oil that they used other solvents in and that you're just inhaling that in your lungs because it saves five bucks.

Yeah, it might be meth.

Anyway, sort of mad scientist vibes for a lot of this stuff that doesn't really sit well with me.

Yeah, for sure.

I'm something of a scientist myself.

I mean, it's true.

And then it goes on to be lab tested for purity, potency, safety, you hope.

Yeah, exactly.

Good companies will post COAs, which are certificates of analysis on the labels.

The refined and tested CBD extract is then usually dissolved into a carrier oil like that hemp seed oil to be used in all the various CBD products that we see on the shelves.

So definitely look for that COA on the labels.

Does it matter how we take CBD?

I think I usually either eat gummies or I've got a dropper full of oil.

It absolutely matters.

So CBD doesn't seem to be very bioavailable orally, meaning if you eat it or drink it, it's digested a bit before it hits the bloodstream.

Transdermal patches and those nasal sprays, they're a bit more efficient.

But the research suggests that the best method is transmucosal, and that's where you put it under your tongue and let it absorb right into the bloodstream.

So, researchers at Johns Hopkins University are studying the different effects from CBD being inhaled, swallowed, or used externally.

But we need patience because this requires long-term observational research.

And since it's only been legal since 2018, you know, the research is new.

But I will definitely say, please don't vape CBD.

Just don't vape.

Yes.

No, that's another, like I said, it's another skeptical Sunday that we should probably do.

I guess CBD hasn't been legal long enough to have conclusive research, which is, again, a little bit frightening.

So in the meantime, we'll just eat it, smoke it, and roll around in it.

Yeah.

You know, anyway.

I mean, even though we don't know.

Definitely think about how you're taking it because, like, with the vaping here, like a little PSA, vaping is cigarettes 2.0.

And instead of lung cancer, the data I've come across that's piling up shows stomach cancer is going to ravage society in the future because of all this vape juice.

Oof, gross vape juice.

So is all the CBD stuff legal?

I know California, it has the stuff with THC in it.

I can't bring it on the plane, but I don't know if pure CBD is just legal everywhere.

Yeah, I mean, in theory.

So in December 2015, the FDA eased regulations to allow for CBD research.

And then with that 2018 farm bill, Congress made hemp, but not marijuana, legal in all 50 states.

This removed CBD from the Controlled Substances Act, and that's when CBD flooded the shelves.

The downside is that if your CBD product has too much THC and you live in a state where weed is illegal, it's rare, but you can be busted.

So people have been charged with CBD possession?

That sounds crazy to me.

It's just a dumb bummer.

Yeah.

But every incident of it I found is ridiculous.

So in 2019, a 69-year-old woman, a grandmother, she has CBD oil in her purse that she uses for arthritis.

She goes to Disney World with her family, her grandkids.

Security finds the oil in her purse.

They test it, find THC, and arrest her for felony hashish possession.

Wow.

Did she go to jail for that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The happiest place on earth through grandma in jail.

And the charges were dropped, but her lawsuit against Disney is ongoing.

And all the similar cases I've read about have ended and dropped charges.

So it's confusing, not just for the consumer, but for law enforcement who can't tell the difference.

I gotta wonder.

Look, I have no evidence for this, but it seems to me like Disney's not incentivized to throw random grandmothers in jail because it makes people unhappy.

It's illegal.

It costs them publicity, bad reputations.

I would love the details on that because I have a feeling there's more to this story.

Like she was wiling out somewhere and they were like, all right, well, we can, we got to take this or whatever.

Cause why would Disney security be like, oh, we just happen to have a lab where we can test your CBD oil on site and call the police?

I felt the same way and I started digging into it.

And it's, you will be shocked to know how many people

that whatever they have on them gets tested.

The security at Disney World has these little test strips, apparently.

And if they turn red, you're not getting in.

Not getting in is one thing, but having them be like, and we're going to put you in jail, it's kind of like, why can't they take it and go, you can't bring in marijuana.

I'm sure you forgot you had it.

We have to throw it in this can or you have to leave.

And they're just like, chuck it in the garbage.

The end.

Enjoy your day.

Come on.

This particular case, the civil rights attorney, Ben Crump, that's who is representing her.

So there's definitely racial components to the whole case.

And it's such a mess.

It's such a mess.

It's like saying avocados are legal, but guacamole is not legal.

I know.

And before the farm bill, it was even messier.

So a lot of CBD was being imported, mainly from China, and it was full of heavy metals.

China!

So it all depends on the manufacturing process used where this stuff comes from, because that's really gross and scary to think, oh, I got this CBD oil off of Amazon.

Oh, there's a bunch of mercury in here or something.

That's terrifying.

I mean, it's really scary.

and it just depends how honest the company is you're buying the CBD from because there's no regulations requiring companies to tell you how they extract it, where it's grown, or if it contains toxins.

You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger Show.

We'll be right back.

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Companies just don't have to tell us what we're buying.

That will never not be surprising.

And I know it's like, oh, supplements, they can have anything.

My buddy sells mushrooms, like actual, you know, like the adaptogenic mushrooms you get in all these supplements.

And he's a high-quality supplier.

And I was like, yeah, these are really expensive.

And he goes, yeah, there's cheaper Chinese suppliers.

And I'm like, they must be eating your lunch.

And he's like, well, yes, but people who use these know that when you're buying a lot of the cheap Chinese mushrooms, you're getting.

One, not the same mushrooms they say they are.

And two, they've tested a bunch of Chinese mushrooms from suppliers for their own stuff.

And they're like, this one, 80% sawdust.

This one, we're not sure, but it sure wasn't mushrooms.

This one, mushrooms, but not the mushrooms we bought.

This one, which was twice the price, okay, but they said it was grade X when it was actually grade Z.

And so he tests this stuff.

And he's like, but this is what you're buying when you buy like knockoff mushroom coffee.

that's cheaper.

You're getting like sawdust coffee from China.

It's really yucky.

Unfortunately, none of that surprises me.

The FDA doesn't regulate supplements and now CBD is classified a supplement.

How does something go from a Schedule I drug to a supplement?

I'm not quite sure.

Cocaine, now a supplement.

Don't worry about it anymore.

Yeah.

But I mean, that means no oversight, no standard dosage, no guarantees.

And the labels can lie to us.

Yeah.

And yeah, unregulated products, they could contain pesticides, those heavy metals, just all these harmful chemicals.

So again, that COA on the label does help.

But companies face some consequences for making bogus claims, right?

I mean, I know you can't sue a company in China, but what about in the United States?

Yeah, I mean, if they get caught, right?

I mean, it's illegal to claim CBD cures anything.

Sure.

Especially stuff like cancer or COVID, which some companies claimed CBD could cure.

Spoiler, it cannot.

But CBD marketing is still like miles ahead of the science.

There's so much room for scams in this industry.

Wow.

A University of Pennsylvania study recently looked at 84 CBD products from 31 companies of all the oils, tinctures, and vape products.

They found 70% were egregiously mislabeled.

And then in 2021, the University of Colorado did a study also finding the percentages of CBD and THC that we see on the packages are just completely unreliable.

Yeah, that's scary.

So there's no way to tell what's in it.

You just have to trust the brand that you buy or the place where you buy it from.

Yeah, exactly.

And contaminants are really common in the CBD industry because of low-quality hemp, cheap solvents, no safety checks.

This is all the reasons you want that COA from a third-party lab so you can verify what's in it and what's not.

So know your drug dealer slash CBD dealer.

It's so lame that we probably need CBD test kits at home.

I really never thought about it, but these CBD stores, it's almost like pyramid schemes, right?

They're just popping up everywhere.

Everyone's like, I have my own brand of CBD something.

And you're like, why?

Why do you have your own brand based on your Instagram thing or like your podcast?

It just, none of it makes sense to me.

It's so strange.

Yeah, it's like the wild, wild west.

I mean,

we're not wrong to wonder about all of that because the business side of all of this is pretty shady.

CBD multi-level marketing scams are out there.

Companies recruit customers to become sellers who recruit more sellers.

It's actually the premise of that American TV series on Comedy Central, Nora from Queens.

Hi there, welcome to CBD Bliss Zone.

You guys interested in lotions, perhaps?

Because I got one that would relax the body, but also makes that late night bump bump.

How'd you know?

Oh, I do.

His legs get cramped in 69.

Oh no.

I have a excellent lotion that I think that you should definitely try.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I can spray this all over you, baby.

Oh yeah, you can try this out.

I remember the moment you got you guys logged in.

Wow, Laura, you're like so good at sales.

Yeah, you know, MBD, CBD, just vibing with it.

So yeah, so if the business model of a brand has an Avon vibe like this, it's more about recruitment than the product.

And that's a red flag.

That's always a red flag, right?

So are we now buying fake CBD from wellness cults?

Is that what you're kind of hinting at here?

Yeah, it's possible, but there are legit uses for CBD.

The trick is knowing who to trust.

I get my stuff from a high-end dispensary around here that doesn't have gang fights in the parking lot, like half the places around San Jose.

And this brand has all those, like, the certificates and everything, but it doesn't really matter if it's, you know, 100% amazing CBD if CBD doesn't actually do anything.

So I don't know.

I'm still on the fence, which is why we're doing this episode.

So do any trusted claims around CBD have any merit, or am I just buying expensive non-psychoactive marijuana and pissing it out, basically?

I mean, there's over 27,000 scientific papers that have explored cannabis and cannabinoids.

I only got through a sampling of those studies, but it's promising that there's potential therapeutic roles of the hemp plant and its compounds, especially from prescription CBD.

But most of the hype goes far beyond what can be proved.

Based on all the Insta and TikTok posts, you'd think CBD was certified magic.

That's the danger, right?

I mean, look, some early research shows that it can help anxiety, sleep, chronic pain, but we just don't have large controlled human trials to back most of that up.

And quality does matter.

Do we know if there's any side effects aside from making people talk endlessly and post about taking CBD?

The side effect seems to be everybody can't shut the hell up about CBD.

I know when I tell people I don't take CBD, they're like, what?

You know, like,

they just

can't understand it.

Yeah.

So CBD can cause mild side effects for some people like nausea, fatigue, and irritability.

Most importantly, CBD interacts with our liver enzymes that metabolize 60% of common medications.

So yeah, people might be familiar with a similar reaction reaction that grapefruit juice has on medication.

It's the same complication, which means it can mess with blood thinners, antidepressants, even antibiotics.

Oh, that's not good.

So let me get this straight.

It goes into the liver and then the chemicals in our liver that say, I'm going to break you down into helpful pieces, they're already busy breaking down the CBD.

So when your medication goes in there, they're like, sit in the waiting room for an extra three hours or just go directly to the bladder.

And so we're not processing those in the way that we need to.

I can see a lot of people who are on antidepressants or antibiotics taking CBD and being like, this is great because I'm taking antidepressants and the CBD is going to help with my depression or I'm taking the CBD and it's going to help with whatever issue I've got alongside these antibiotics.

But what you're doing is making those medications less effective, which is really scary.

It's really bad news.

You think something's wrong with you.

Yeah.

It's another reason we need more studies because I don't want to be taking something that messes with how I metabolize a certain medication.

I don't take medication at all right now, but I think most people at some point in their life take a medication.

And if you're taking CBD every day, just as kind of a baseline thing with your latte in the morning or coffee in the morning, that's a big problem.

Sure.

And if you find yourself with a reason to take antibiotics or something, I mean, just make sure you let your doctor know you're taking CBD so they can keep an eye on those liver enzymes.

But, you know, honestly, it seems like the levels of CBD people consume are so low that side effects are probably pretty rare for the majority of consumers.

Just don't assume that that natural label means safe.

You know, if you're taking anxiety meds and CBD, there's reason to believe you're probably doing more harm than good.

Well, that makes me anxious to even hear about, but can it replace anxiety meds?

Because I think a lot of people think, oh, I can use CBD for anxiety.

I can use CBD for sleep.

And it's kind of like, well, if you're already taking medication for that, you can't do that.

Right.

I mean, there's some clinical trials that suggest CBD may help reduce anxiety, especially social anxiety.

Some studies are showing that CBD reduces our core body temperature, which is what is helping promote sleep.

But as for depression, preliminary studies show it could alter serotonin levels, but there's just so much more that needs to be studied because in some cases, CBD is stimulating for someone.

And then in other cases, it makes them sleepy.

You know, it just depends on so many factors.

And not just with anxiety and sleep.

I mean, pessimism rises when CBD claims of alleviating chronic pain are introduced.

Isn't that what all the CBD lotions are for, dealing with chronic pain?

There's creams.

My dad uses one.

He's like, it works so well.

But it's funny because he's like, it works seconds after he puts it on.

And I don't have the heart to be like, yeah, that's placebo if it's taking effect within 10 seconds.

You know, and that poor grandma at Disney World.

Yeah, that's right.

She's like, it helps my arthritis.

And they're like, actually, it just puts you in jail.

It doesn't actually do anything for your arthritis.

There's a small number of studies that show CBD helps with inflammatory or nerve pain, but others do say it's never better than the placebo effect.

So, you know, you're right.

There's definitely a placebo effect, but that doesn't mean the relief your dad's getting isn't real.

So no miracle cure lies in CBD, but a lot of chronic pain sufferers tend to swear by it.

And I almost feel bad because we're telling them with this episode, hey, it might just be the placebo effect.

I hope that doesn't ruin it for them.

I know.

I mean, chronic pain research is really mixed, which is frustrating because sufferers are often just desperate to help alleviate those symptoms.

One animal study from the European Journal of Pain suggests CBD could help lower arthritis pain.

Another study from researchers at University of Bath though finds no evidence that CBD products reduce chronic pain.

And I love this study from the University of Bath because the researchers just really express their frustration in the study because the products are so unreliable.

They can't do any proper research.

Like footnote, these damn vials don't actually have any CBD in them.

We have to test everything.

I mean, absolutely.

What a pain.

They just kind of gave up and said, look, taking CBD is a waste of money.

It's potentially harmful to your health.

And we're not saying that because CBD doesn't do anything, but because everything we're being sold contains varying amounts of CBD and sometimes no CBD is in the products.

Oh, man.

And by the way, I'm going to say it for our UK listeners who are cringing.

We know it's the University of Both, but no one's going to say that.

So just suck it up, folks.

I met someone from Both and they couldn't, when I said, oh, you're from Bath, they were like, oh, don't do that to me, which I kind of understand, I suppose.

But you know what?

Tough Kishka.

So all the shady, all the shady marketing and labeling scams are confusing what CBD actually does, which sucks because it sounds like that study wasn't, hey, this doesn't do anything for anything.

It was, it kind of doesn't do a whole lot for chronic pain.

And also trying to even test this is impossible because 99 times out of 100, the thing you're buying at the store that says it's CBD doesn't even have the amount of CBD in it or any CBD in it.

So it kind of doesn't matter if it helps with pain.

You're not able to buy it anywhere.

You just think you can.

I mean, yeah, I i know the problem is of the just 16 randomized controlled trials that have explored the link between pain and cbd 15 of them have shown no positive results the studies show a 25 decrease in pain with the placebo effect though i suppose even if it is a placebo though that's still a win again we're hopefully not ruining that for everybody listening yeah i mean it's certainly meaningful the placebo effect is a very real thing and powerful for chronic conditions.

So the burden is on the consumer buying things that don't work the way they're marketed.

I mean, outlandish CBD claims overshadow the real results for a few certain conditions.

So no prescription CBD is actually approved?

There is one.

Epidialex.

And that's a prescription medication which is successfully used to treat really rare childhood epilepsy.

It's FDA approved, it's regulated and highly purified.

I'm talking the purest CBD isolate found.

And it's only used for these two like really severe epileptic disorders called Drobit syndrome and Lennox-Castal syndrome, both of which begin in childhood.

Huh.

So there is some legit medical use case for CBD.

That's promising.

But it's this is like weapons grade CBD.

Yeah.

Not the stuff you find available online or whatever, via an Instagram ad.

Yeah, exactly.

And surprisingly, with these two, they're finding that some kids with the seizure conditions also are showing reduced autistic behaviors after taking the epidialects.

Oh, wow.

We don't know why yet, because of course, more research is needed.

Wow.

Alleviating seizures in children is huge.

I mean, I don't know what reduced autistic behaviors means because that's such a, again, it's a huge spectrum.

Exactly.

I mean, that's why we have to do more studies, but that's what they're saying.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I'm always cautious with this because we have, first of all, we have autistic listeners.

And I'm not, I'm not saying like, I don't want to offend people.

What I'm saying is they'll write in and go, you guys talk about autism like we're some sort of weird dysfunctional group of people that can't tie our shoes.

I'm an engineer at NASA.

You know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what does that mean?

Because that guy's doing just fine.

He's actually doing really great.

So like, what is the autistic behavior I'm wondering that they are trying to get less of with a drug?

I don't know.

From what I've come across in this research, I mean, I think it's really the really extreme cases that they're seeing.

Right.

And then maybe they don't have those ticks or something that you see sometimes.

I'm just curious what that means, I guess.

But I digress.

Here's the thing.

And what needs to be stressed is that these doses of CBD prescribed for these conditions and in clinical trials is just so much higher than what you get casually buying a soda or a gummy because you're anxious about going to some party.

I mean, that's the disconnect.

People buy low-grade products hoping for medical-grade effects, and that's just not realistic.

Many researchers believe that low doses and all the stuff the general public buys is genuinely not effective, and it's just CBD theater.

But people don't like to admit they're on the placebo train.

I see.

Well, at least nobody's overdosing on CBD, right?

True, but the dosage still matters.

So there are instances where low doses of CBD have proved to engage with the endocannabinoid system without any severe side effects.

So people assume that higher doses of CBD will be more effective.

But without sufficient studies, we just can't pinpoint what the effective doses are.

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Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday.

I learned this on another Skeptical Sunday.

You can have things like endocrine disruptors where a lower dose does more than a higher dose.

And I can't begin to explain why that's the case, right?

But I guess like in a lower dose, it'll make whatever receptor it attaches to, it'll make those neurons or whatever do something.

But in a higher dose, your body's like, ignore all of that.

This is a foreign substance.

So yeah, without knowing what the dose is, that is a problem, especially because like, look, I know I'm showing my cards here a little bit, but if I'm going to take a marijuana edible, I know I'm taking two milligrams because I'm a cheap date and it's going to do X, Y, Z within this certain kind of band of effects, right?

It's going to be like, you're going to be tired, but you're not going to forget your name.

But with CBD, I'm like, all right, I took a full dropper.

I guess I'm getting 40 milligrams of CBD.

I don't know what this is going to do.

Maybe nothing.

And then it's like, like, all right, tomorrow I'm going to take 80.

And then I'm like, I feel kind of gross now.

I can't make the dose do a thing because I can't feel the thing that it does.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, the THC amount you're taking was probably trial by error, you know?

Yes, of course.

Yeah.

Many errors, many nights in the fetal position.

And I'm like, okay, never do more than three.

But this is, again, it's not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing because not all CBD is the same.

So it's almost like it just makes it so complicated to figure this out.

And CBD behaves differently depending on the extract.

So two people can take the same dose and have totally different experiences.

The ideal dosage depends on each individual's biology.

You know, we all don't metabolize things the same way, and so much depends on the type of product used.

What do you mean by type of product?

Just the different ways to use CBD, right?

There's oils, gummies, capsules, beverages, the lotions, all of that.

So the amount of CBD that actually enters our body is different in each type of product I guess that makes sense yeah you know plus our body weight and chemistry influences the amount of CBD one needs to have any effect this is because you know body weight affects our metabolism it affects our circulation sure your weight also affects the amount of time for which CBD stays in your body but again there's no like concrete chart or something to dictate who should take what and when

so what do we actually know?

It sounds like not much, frankly.

Yeah, I mean, what's undeniable is that people with serious health issues like epilepsy, MS, and anxiety report better sleep, better mood, better quality of life after starting CBD.

I mean, that means something, but it is anecdotal.

I personally know someone with aggressive MS who swears by it.

not as a cure, but as something that helps their just daily discomfort.

And that alone is worth studying.

And I'm guessing it's not addictive?

According to the World Health Organization, CBD shows no signs of being addictive.

And to date, there's just no evidence of public health-related problems associated with the use of CBD isolate.

This changes when you consider the full spectrum extract that includes THC.

But as far as pure CBD goes, research points to the opposite of addiction.

Okay, what's the opposite of addiction?

So research in both animals and and humans suggests CBD may help with addiction.

Several studies show it can lower cravings for tobacco and heroin under certain conditions.

Wow, I prefer my heroin without tobacco, but to eat your own, I suppose.

I mean, there's other evidence that suggests it may also help lessen cravings for alcohol, other opiates, other stimulants.

It just really seems to depend on the type of product used.

It's kind of a running joke that THC reduces your cravings for a lot of things, right?

You get the munchies, but you don't really want to work and you don't feel stress anymore.

And you don't, you know.

So do other countries regulate CBD more or less strictly?

Like, is this a U.S.

puritanical culture thing where it's been illegal, so we're sort of sliding back into it?

Or is Europe like, hey, this is something everybody uses?

I mean, no one is traveling internationally to get CBD therapy.

The studies in the U.S.

actually are influencing hemp legislation over the pond.

CBD was also legalized in the UK in 2018.

It's legal in most places around the world, but it's that THC percentage that varies.

So, for instance, in Switzerland, CBD can have up to 1% THC, but in Ireland, it has to be CBD isolate with absolutely no THC allowed.

So every country seems to struggle with this testing and labeling.

So even overseas, it's all just the wild, wild west of cannabis.

Yeah, and it's not set here in the U.S.

either.

I mean, the drama continues.

As I was writing this in July 2025, Texas Representative James Tallarico, he went on the Joe Rogan show to sound the alarm about a new bill put forward by Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick to ban all hemp products.

So that's just going to wipe out hundreds of businesses.

Yeah, and lay off thousands of people in an industry that seems to be giving people relief.

And why?

Dan Patrick just thought like, hey, you know what's helping too many people?

These plants, let's get rid of them.

Or is this kind of like, I always feel like there's a money motivator somewhere.

So what is it?

Absolutely.

Representative Tallarico, he's just blasting the proposal, claiming the real reason is pressure from a very familiar industry that's terrified of losing money.

I see.

So is this like booze makers are upset that people are doing weed and CBD instead?

Yeah, I mean, you nailed it.

And while I can't find solid data, it does seem alcohol sales have dropped in states with full legalization like Colorado and California.

So it's no surprise the alcohol industry is reportedly lobbying hard to yank hemp, CBD, and THC off the shelves.

Yikes, yeah, burn the competition to the ground, just don't inhale afterwards.

Exactly.

Representative Tallarico is accusing Dan Patrick and other Texas politicians of working hand in hand with the alcohol industry to make this happen.

So, you know, stay tuned.

It's still unfolding.

Yeah.

I mean, there's that whole debate around what's more harmful, alcohol, or marijuana, is

quite conclusive.

So, yeah, and CBD is over here trying to chill everyone out.

I guess I was going to say shocking, but it's not shocking at all that somebody who's got a bunch of money from booze brands is going to say, oh, it's the marijuanas.

They're terrible.

Reefer madness.

And CBD is marketed by a lot of lifestyle brands, you know, on the other extreme as this multi-use miracle molecule.

Yes, it does interact with multiple biological pathways.

It offers some users relief, which is cool, but companies deceive consumers into thinking it treats everything from pain to your chakra alignment.

I see.

So it's a boondoggle.

So it's probably making somebody rich, right?

Oh, of course.

In 2021, the global CBD market was worth about $3 billion U.S.

By 2030, it's projected to hit $60 billion.

Wow.

That's real money.

And if your $20 CBD latte doesn't work for you or you get high by surprise, it's kind of like, oh, well, buyer beware.

And companies giggle all the way to Taco Bell to spend the profits on chalupas.

I mean, good thing CBD is not allowed as a food additive, or we'd have CBD-blasted kettle-cooked enchiladas or something.

But lifestyle companies like Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop or Courtney Kardashian's Lemmy, they sell CBD-infused everything they can get away with from creams for wrinkles, gummies for sex drive.

CBD libido gummies.

If your wife doesn't want you after a handful of these, she might want a snack instead.

Either way, someone's getting a burrito.

So I've heard about this.

I'm interested to know if CBD is actually an aphrodisiac because I've seen ads that it helps.

ED.

I mean, my friend is interested and told me that CBD can help with erectile dysfunction.

I don't know.

So does it do anything for my friend's penis or not?

I mean, CBD for your ED is DOA.

DOA, huh?

Womp, womp.

Yeah.

I mean, some people claim they use CBD for their sex life, but there is zero scientific evidence to support it has any effect on your friend's erections.

Oh, he'll be sad.

But this is another area where the placebo effect is probably helping couples.

So there's strong evidence that ED involves psychological factors.

So CBD could indirectly improve your friend's performance by reducing stress and anxiety.

So the real miracle is the placebo effect.

And we've done entire shows about it, one of which was episode 716 with Joe Marchand, which I think was a re-air from a long time ago, but that was the one where we really dove into it.

Her book was called The Cure, A Journey into the Science of Mind Over Body.

And it sounds hokey, but it's not.

She's actually a health researcher, a journalist.

And she talks about all about how the placebo effect really works.

It's actually incredible what the placebo effect can do.

And as long as you're sort of comfortable with it not being able to actually cure anything, it's just for pain, essentially.

It really is kind of an amazing thing that our bodies can do.

But I digress.

But it is.

And I think the whole thing is that there's no money for pharmaceutical companies with the placebo effect, really.

That's a good point.

That's a good point.

But as far as CBD and sex goes, I will say the one rule is if you're pregnant or breastfeeding, just stay away from any CBD product.

Not because there's reason to think CBD can harm a baby, but because the questionable quality of the products can contain pesticides and other toxins, and that can harm a fetus or your baby.

Do CBD products contain warnings against taking them during pregnancy?

I mean, a lot of companies do put a warning on their packaging, but they aren't required to.

Unfortunately, a lot of women were misinformed about this when Kim Kardashian, and say what you will, but she influences a lot of people.

She did the most Kardashian thing ever.

And for her last child, she had a CBD-themed baby shower in 2019.

Oh my gosh, the miracle of motherhood tolerated with the help of drugs like CBD.

Great.

Yeah, it was a really weird choice, but in defense of Kim, she didn't carry that baby.

It was a surrogate.

But at the very publicized shower, guests made their own concoctions of body oils and lotions and bath sauts.

So unless you're a billionaire who can guarantee the safest products, just steer clear of any synthetic CBD because you just don't know what else could be in there.

And all of a sudden your chill CBD bubble bath is giving you psychotic reactions, not to mention taking away any possible real benefits that CBD could bring.

Oh my God, imagine you're like, I'm going to de-stress with a bath bomb and then suddenly you're

running out of your house naked because you're on PCP, basically.

So as long as we're checking the labels or every reality TV show money, CBD appears to be harmless.

But what about CBD usage for or in children?

Yeah, I mean, I will put that in the big fat no category.

So a growing number of parents, though, are using it to treat behavioral issues in children.

There's no solid evidence that CBD does.

anything helpful for kids.

In fact, the studies I've read show horrible side effects for children from mood swings, swings, intestinal issues, and liver toxicity.

It might seem like it helps your kids sleep when it sedates them, but you're likely giving them THC, which, you know, is a huge problem for child development.

Active playing proves way more effective in helping your kids be cool.

So we're sedating kids with weed and just hoping it's not psychoactive.

I would feel so bad if I gave my kid THC when I think I'm giving them CBD to help chill them out.

That's terrible.

That's probably a good reason for divorce, I would imagine, if your kid gets into your gummies.

I'm pretty sure you can go to jail for that.

I'm quite certain.

Yeah.

I mean, companies aren't exactly being subtle about marketing it to parents, though.

I've been on websites that say CBD suppositories are a bestseller.

So I just don't know what people are thinking.

And for the record, CBD suppositories, unnecessary in any situation.

Yes, suppositories, that's when you have to force like a baby to take a fever medication when they're one year old because they have a super high fever and yada yada.

So if you're at the point where you're forcing a child to take a medication that is a fake medication by shoving it up their butt, I'm not even trying to be funny.

I mean, that's actually just like child abuse at that point.

I don't think people are doing it nefariously.

I mean, I think people think that they're helping, you know, that's the sad part.

Right, of course.

Even with my friend's E.D., I don't know what he's into, but CBD suppositories, man, say more.

I regret saying this, but say more.

So, yeah, I mean, that's tame compared to some of the rabbit holes they've gone down.

I also don't recommend the CBD infused sports bra offered by a company called Akabata.

That can't be real.

Get out of here.

Why would you put a bra?

What's, I don't get it.

Tell me more.

Their sports bras infused with CBD.

And their bike shorts, only $125.

Oh, my God.

Their infused jumpsuit, only $275.

So that can't be a viable business because it's too dumb.

I mean, you stand uncorrected because they went out of business in 2020.

Wow.

The website's gone, but their Instagram page is still up and it's highly entertaining.

Who could have predicted that they would have gone under?

But they weren't the only one.

There are other companies in existence.

You can buy CBD infused clothes on their sites.

And they sell all kinds of lifestyle products, often backed up with this really common link to something called the CBD mid-year report, like whatever that means.

What is that?

It's unclear, but it appears to be a scammy website updating consumers on CBD to make their scammy products look more official.

That's exactly what it sounds like, for sure.

Yeah, it's not backed by any science or any certified organization.

It's like this, I don't know, just a marketing thing.

Yeah, so the clothes obviously come with skepticism, but so many products flood the shelves.

That's crazy.

So many.

You know, we've got CBD-infused toothpicks, shampoos, bath bombs, cheeseburgers at Carl's Jr.

Well, wait, I thought you said CBD could not be added to food.

It can't.

But Carl's Jr.

found this legal loophole to test their Rocky Mountain High Sauce at one location in Colorado for one day on 420 in 2019.

Naturally.

So they just leveraged the legal ambiguity around CBD, but technically it broke all kinds of federal regulations.

So they're like, it was just one day and the feds were probably like, okay, we're not going to do anything this time.

Don't do that.

Like it was because it was for research purposes.

I don't know.

They got around it somehow.

Carls Jr.

Yeah, we're running a scientific study here in our drive-through.

Come on.

Okay, so you were listing a bunch of weird CBD-infused products.

Go on.

There's got to be more.

Toothpicks is weird.

Sports bra, definitely weird.

What else?

Yeah.

I mean, one that really sticks in my craw: CBD-infused tampons.

Gross.

Don't do it, ladies.

Wow, that you're right.

It sticks in your craw.

Why?

Why does that exist?

Just please don't do it.

A CBD tampon isn't curing anyone's cramps, but it's probably appealing to somebody in some pain.

It's just not how it works.

It's just an overpriced sponge with really cute packaging.

Oh, my God.

I can see people falling for those.

I've actually heard of vodka-soaked tampons.

Back at Michigan, people would go to the football game and you couldn't bring alcohol in and going back and forth would be a huge pain and drinking a lot would be a huge pain.

So they soak a tampon and they would put it in and they would just be wasted.

But wouldn't, by the way, wouldn't that burn?

Yeah.

I would think.

Also, a big sign you have a problem, but

it is true.

That will get you drunk.

It's also really dangerous.

To use tampons as a delivery system for anything is dangerous and crazy because absorbing things that way, it bypasses your digestion and it hits the bloodstream directly.

Plus, CBD tampons would need such a massive dose to do anything, it's definitely not worth it.

And tampons are already criminally expensive, but you slap a CBD label on them and you're like digging into savings once a month to shove God knows what in your vagina.

Oh my gosh.

Same with the CBD toilet paper sold by a lot of companies.

Get out.

That's ridiculous.

That barely touches my skin.

I won't go into detail on that.

One uses the slogan, calm your ass down, which

I will say.

I could get behind buying as a gag gift at best, but I wouldn't even wipe my nose with it.

I think they are selling that for pure novelty, but whatever.

That's hilarious.

I've seen CBD treats for dogs and stuff, by the way, and cats.

That's got to be bullshit too, right?

Sit, stay, chill.

Yeah, there's CBD pet products, but they also get a hard no.

CBD is tested on lab animals, but there's even less research to back up CBD as a pet treatment than there is for humans.

So it seems harmless and well tolerated by pets, but it's believed it can damage their livers, just like in humans.

And THC can be toxic to pets.

So because of the lack of regulation, you got to be careful about giving your dogs or cats or birds or whatever THC.

Yeah, my cat almost died from eating a flower once, so I'm definitely not going to give him CBD.

That may or may not be CBD.

I know.

When someone tells me their pet needs CBD because it has anxiety, I'm never convinced.

I just assume it's the owner transferring their baggage onto their animal, but what do I know?

Oh, no, I'm with you for sure.

Someone who is distantly related to me once told me that his dog was racist and they think he was abused by a person of color.

And I'm like, well, you are also racist.

So maybe he's picking up on how you treat other people.

So what are your key takeaways here on CBD?

TBD on CBD, I guess.

It shows promise for relieving epilepsy when medically prescribed, but it's not the miracle cure the general public likes to claim.

Like anything, buyer beware.

Choose products from reputable companies that offer those third-party lab results so you can cut down on ingesting toxins along with that tiny amount of CBD you're buying.

Just approach all the claims about your CBD products with a healthy dose of skepticism.

And if you have a medical condition, my advice always talk to your doctor before using CBD, especially if you're on prescriptions.

Just because it's sold at CVS doesn't mean it's safe or effective or even real, I guess.

Yeah, right.

I mean, it's a real chemical compound that's potentially helpful, but it's kind of scientifically underwhelming and it's wildly overhyped for the average person.

At the end of the day, you're never getting medical grade nor a medical dose of CBD over the counter.

I would spend your money on an exercise class instead.

You know, I'll pass and I think you should too.

And if you're upset about that, well, maybe your CBD also isn't working.

Right.

Yeah.

Calm down.

No problem.

I got my CBD here to help me do that.

If nothing else, it gives us silly gifts of sports bras and bath bombs and toilet paper.

Honestly, though, it sounds like the CBD, the real win for CBD is what the marketing department gets to do

to convince all of us to buy this stuff.

Might have to grab some of that CBD toilet paper, though, and wipe some of my stress away.

Trademark it, Jordan.

Done.

Thanks, Jess.

Thank you all for listening.

Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to me, Jordan at JordanHarbinger.com.

Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect to me on LinkedIn.

You can find Jessica Wynne on her sub stacks, Between the Lines, and Where Shadows Linger.

And we'll link to that in the show notes as well, as we always do.

This show is created in association with Podcast One.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tada Sidlowskis, Robert Frogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own.

I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and I'm sure as heck not a doctor.

Also, we try to get these episodes as right as we can.

Not everything is gospel, even if it's been fact-checked by an expert.

So consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well-being.

Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love.

And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

And we'll see you next time.

What if the next 20 years bring more change than the last 200?

And we're not remotely ready for it.

Jamie Metzel joins me to unpack the mind-blowing collision of AI, biotech, and genetics that's already reshaping what it means to be human.

If you look at all of the scientific progress of the last 100 years and you compare that to the hundred years before that and 100 years before that, we see this rapid acceleration.

Because

these systems are so complex, we need a language and understanding the language of biology, which already exists, for us to understand it, we need these capabilities and AI with all these other technologies will be that.

And as we as humans and as our machines learn more about how to learn, more learning becomes possible.

Acceleration begets acceleration.

If we think this is a conversation about technology, we're going to get lost.

This is a conversation about humanity and it's a conversation about values.

It's about who are we as we guide these revolutions.

But humans have co-evolved with our technologies for thousands of years and more likely tens of thousands of years.

So it's not us versus our technology.

Our technology is us.

And the question is what's the best way for us to co-evolve in a healthy, sustainable way?

But we need to know what we're trying to achieve.

Every single person has a role in deciding how these technologies are used or not used as individuals and as a community.

And that needs to guide us going forward.

This is about all of our future.

To hear more about the breakthroughs coming faster than we can comprehend and why we urgently need to figure out how to steer the ship, check out episode 1014 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

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