1196: Does Sister's Past Give Her Abuse a Free Pass? | Feedback Friday

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Welcome to Feedback Friday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the sickle to my hammer in this communist caliber parade of red flags, Gabriel Mazrahi.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission on the show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, four-star generals, rocket scientists, war correspondents, and astronauts.

This week we had Javier Leva.

He's a fellow podcaster, true crime investigator.

We talked about romance scams, not just the ones that happen over the internet.

Apparently, these things are happening in real life.

People are getting control of people's estates and stuff like that.

There's some real con men and women out there, and we talked about that and some ways that you can help keep your friends and family safe, kinda.

On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters.

offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and goose step through these absurdly imposing public squares of life conundra.

I hear we got a packed dues cruise today, so no pre-boarding orientation today.

Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 32-year-old woman, and three years ago, my dad walked out on my mom after 32 years of marriage.

As their messy divorce proceeded, old and dark family secrets have come to light.

It turns out that he physically, financially, and emotionally abused my mom in the early years of their marriage.

Then, recently, my sister, who's actually my half-sister, but I didn't know that until I was 12, we share a mom, told me that he sexually abused her.

This is his stepdaughter, when she was 13 years old.

She said my dad snuck into her room one night and touched her inappropriately when he came back from a night out drinking.

She also said that she told our mom the next morning and a battle ensued.

Our mom kicked our dad out of the house, and after weeks of my dad begging for forgiveness, my mom let him back.

Ugh, gross.

I hate hearing that.

My mom's side of the story is pretty similar.

She adds that in the weeks my dad was out of the house, she was dead set on leaving him, but he threatened her that if she did, he would cut off her access to money and take my sister and me out of our private school.

With nowhere to go, my mom, with her limited English, would have to go back to working in Mexico.

And since my sister and I were American citizens, my dad would get CPS involved.

to make sure we stayed in the U.S.

Not how this works, but yeah, I can see that being really scary.

So my mom decided to forgive my dad and let him back in the house.

He apologized and it never happened again.

What's weird is that my sister says that what my mom did to her taking my dad back is worse than the actual sexual abuse.

Yeah, that's actually not weird at all.

I'm sure that felt like a huge betrayal.

These reasons you just laid out make a lot of sense.

It really, it just breaks my heart to hear that your mom felt that she just didn't have enough power to keep this abusive guy away.

But your sister must must have experienced that as a double trauma.

To be abused and then to fail to be protected from her abuser.

Yeah, by her own mother.

Even if it never happened again, which, like, I'm not totally sure I believe that, but whatever.

That's just so sad.

Now that my parents are getting divorced and the secret has come to light, my sister has surprisingly gotten closer to my dad, choosing to go on our usual lavish vacations with him and not wanting to be with my mom and me.

My mom doesn't have the funds for a lavish or luxurious lifestyle anymore.

I didn't see that coming.

Okay, interesting.

When I brought this paradox up with her and how she talks badly about family members behind their backs, then cozies up to them and divulges other intimate family details, she flew into a rage.

She asked why I even cared, to which I said that she's my sister, and I was trying to understand her so we could continue to be close.

To which she responded, I don't care if we're close.

I don't care if you understand me.

And everyone in the family talks bad about you.

She also said that my mother and I were the reason she often screams at her kids and husband.

When we aren't around, she says she doesn't act that way with them.

She says us visiting her home is a source of stress.

Since this conversation eight months ago, our relationship has only gotten worse.

That's really sad.

Given what she went through as a child, I'm just going to go ahead and assume that this rage and this instability, the resistance to being close, this is all related to the trauma.

Must be.

It's kind of gotta be.

I find it ridiculous to hear an adult say, you're the reason I yell at my husband and kids.

That's something a child would say.

You made me do this.

That's just so strange.

In a sense, she is a child, right?

As long as these young parts of her have not been dealt with and healed.

Yeah.

Then she's probably a little bit regressed in certain ways.

I hear that.

When you guys come around, even if you're doing nothing to provoke her, I do wonder if it brings up certain feelings, ones she probably doesn't even fully understand, that she then has to.

I don't know, discharge in some way, and that's maybe why she ends up screaming.

Just a theory.

Clearly, although I still find it absurd for, again, an adult to blame another adult for making them do something extreme, like yell at their husband and kids.

Yeah, it's incredibly, it's overly simplistic and avoids having to take any responsibility.

Right, no accountability.

She sounds like a tricky person.

This is hard.

The day I got engaged, she refused to show up, despite being invited by both parents, arguing that the whole thing was very quote-unquote oddly planned by my fiancé, and saying she would only show up if she got a personal phone call from my fiancé inviting her and detailing the plan.

She didn't show up for the engagement party either, saying she had a busy weekend then.

We used to be close, so this was strange and hurtful behavior.

Right, obviously deliberate.

She's just looking for an excuse not to go, and then even if she got what she wanted, she would have come up with a reason not to.

A few months later, she invited our mom and me to her house for her son's play, and we went, taking time off of work and traveling across the country.

But while we were there, she made plans at the last minute with her quote-unquote frenemies, a name she gave them, not me, and rudely left us to watch the kids one night.

Okay, well, I'm quickly losing empathy for this woman.

The frenemies thing, this is quite telling.

She's running away at every turn or avoiding situations where she'll have to be in contact with them, even though our friend here seems to have done nothing wrong.

So we're about to get way more information, but I think there's something about being close with her family that is too distressing, I guess, for her.

Earlier that day, she yelled at our mom in front of her in-laws when my mom said she wasn't feeling up to doing a celebrity meet and greet with Mel Gibson

and that she would wait for us by the exit.

She didn't speak directly to us the entire weekend, communicating with us through her children.

I was deeply hurt.

Okay.

Well, sorry, that Mel Gibson detail just kind of took me by surprise.

I don't know why that's so funny.

It's so weird.

This is the man from Lethal Weapon Daddy's Home 2 and that body cam footage of him using an anti-Semitic splur with the police officer.

And you don't want to shake the man's hand, mom.

Come on.

You're getting too old for this shit.

That's a new one.

I like that.

Yeah, that's Murtog or whatever, right?

I'm too old for this.

It's the guy who's not Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon.

Our mom keeps suggesting that we three meet to talk things out, but I feel like I've shown enough goodwill and my sister has shown none.

I'm very stressed at work and have a lot of grief related to my parents' divorce and ongoing legal battle.

And I feel like subjecting myself to more of my sister's tantrums is unfair to me.

I haven't even been able to bask in the joy of being engaged because of all this pain.

But my mom insists I give it another try, even though she doesn't hold my sister accountable for her actions because she feels guilty for the abuse that happened 27 years ago.

Bingo.

Yeah, okay.

This has been the case my whole life, and it all makes sense now.

My sister was allowed to act out, tear apart her room, scream and curse at my parents, and I couldn't so much as give them an eye roll.

Now, as a 40-year-old woman, she screams at her kids and husband and has even been known to hit them, even for trivial things like parking too far away from the elevator.

She blames it on the stress others cause her, never taking accountability.

She has a lot of financial resources, a supportive husband, and ample time while her kids are at school to go see a therapist.

But she doesn't.

I can understand why she acts out, but she isn't doing anything to better herself either.

Yes, and the fact that you can make room for both of those things, that really does tell me you're the more reasonable party here.

You're meeting her with both empathy and fair expectations, but she doesn't want to work on this stuff.

Anyway, we'll get into that.

Separately, my sister's kids, 11, 10, and 8, recently told me that they think their mom is mean.

Well, she is.

My sister's mother-in-law has also echoed this information.

I'm now feeling a sense of responsibility to my niece and nephews to talk to her about her tantrums and fits, but I fear she'll limit my time with her kids.

Am I wrong for refusing my mom's request to patch things up?

Am I wrong in deciding to wait out her tantrums instead of approaching her to fix things?

What's my best course of action for fixing this relationship?

Do I talk to my niece and nephews about their mom?

Signed, looking for a magic wand to repair this bond when so many things went wrong, and I'm kind of afraid of the response.

Okay, wow, what a story.

What a sister.

Let me start by saying I'm so sorry about all this.

What your dad did to your sister.

What he did to your mom, that your mom basically felt like she was forced to stay with him, that your sister didn't feel heard and protected, that she received all this latitude as a child when you weren't given much room to express your feelings from the sound of it.

The emotional math in your family is very clear and very tragic for everyone involved.

I'm angry and, frankly, totally grossed out by your dad.

I'm saddened and frustrated with your mom.

I have many feelings about your sister, but we're here to talk primarily about you.

And so I just want to say I'm, I'm sorry for you.

I'm sorry that you have to carry this grief, that you often have to accommodate everyone else, that it's making it hard to enjoy your engagement.

That sucks.

You deserve better.

So let me state the obvious here.

Your sister's traumatized.

That trauma has created a very challenging personality.

Maybe she also had some stuff going on before the abuse.

I'm sure there were other variables in her childhood that played a role.

She's unstable.

She's aggressive.

She's abusive, frankly.

And it sounds like she can't tolerate being consistently close with people.

which makes it virtually impossible to experience conflict with another person long enough to repair things.

She also projects a lot, her anger, her shame.

I think that's what the yelling and the blaming other people is all about.

I mean, who cares if someone parks away from the elevator?

You're going to hit your husband for that?

You said she has a lot of resources and she has her husband and her kids.

That might change.

People don't put up with this crap for the rest of their lives.

You know, kids turn 18, they go no contact.

Husbands say, I've had enough of you.

They leave.

That happens.

Like you said, my heart goes out to her because of what she's been through.

But my God, at what point do you go, why am I screaming at my kids all the time?

Why am I slapping my husband for parking too far?

Why am i not close with my sister anymore why am i spending so much time with the parent who abused me why do i gossip about everybody why do i experience other people as stressful behave badly and then blame them instead of taking accountability i mean through the lens of personal accountability this is dysfunctional and unconscionable through the lens of trauma it's tragic and understandable and like i said the fact that you can move between those two lenses i think that says a lot about you Gabe, I really, look, we're not doctors.

I'm hesitant to diagnose this sister, but these details details are so vivid I wonder if maybe it would be helpful for her to consider the possibility I'm getting strong BPD vibes from the sister yeah though she does check a lot of the boxes doesn't she the intense emotions the impulsive behavior the unstable relationships tearing other people down yeah there's also this interesting i keep thinking about her subplot with her father like this guy who sexually abused her she's now hanging out with okay maybe it's because his vacations are awesome and she just wants to go on a boat or whatever you know one of the hallmarks of BPD is also toggling between idealizing people and devaluing them.

And I wonder if maybe that is happening also in the relationship with her father.

Yeah, right.

Maybe.

It's just very textbook.

But in addition to all that, the feeling our friend here has of walking on eggshells, trying not to provoke her sister, waiting out her tantrums instead of approaching her to fix things, but then feeling resentful and exhausted and confused and wondering how to best accommodate her.

I mean, that's classic BPD stuff.

We know that personality disorders are caused by trauma.

Many are.

So is this her fault?

In a way, no, right?

I mean, she was a child when this stuff happened, but also, man, in a way, yes, she's 40 years old.

She's a mother and a sister.

She has a responsibility to address her crap now.

If she wants to be at peace, if she wants to have healthy, stable relationships, she at some point, it's like, it's not your fault, but it's your responsibility.

Does it mean she's going to get herself together?

Obviously not.

And based on what you've shared, I just, I don't have high hopes that she's going to change, although anything is possible.

I mean, many people get wake-up calls eventually, but it's going to require her to get to a point where she realizes, oh, I actually have a lot of work to do.

I need to look at some of this stuff and I need to bear some difficult information and feelings in order to understand myself and get better.

So, no, I don't think you're entirely wrong for refusing your mom's request to patch things up for the 50th time or 150th time.

You've tried to talk to her directly before.

We're grown-ass adults now, right?

This has probably been happening since childhood.

And you approached her most recently and she literally said, I don't care if we're close.

I don't care if you understand me.

And then she said a bunch of hurtful stuff.

Come on, how much do you need to put up with here?

It's hard to know if her sister really feels that way or if that was just her pushing the sister away, but that is pretty clear.

I mean, that's a pretty clear response.

Also, your mom's request to patch things up echoes her approach with your sister your whole life, right?

Like you said, she gets to act out and you have to make the effort to repair.

She gets to be young and messy and unaccountable and you have to be the grown-up.

And I'm sure that brings up so many many feelings for you.

So I totally get why you're going, yeah, I don't know if I want to be that person anymore.

You know, I don't know if I'm down to keep playing this game.

Yeah, I think we're quickly approaching the moment where she just finally says, ain't nobody got time for that.

You know, I mean, I got my own stuff I got to deal with.

So that said, there's one type of conversation you could have with her at this stage, which is something along the lines of, look, I want to be close with you.

I want to work on our relationship.

I'm willing to have whatever conversations we need to have to get there.

The last time I tried, you told me that you don't care if we're close.

You don't care if I understand you.

I don't know if you still feel that way, but if you do, then I'll take you at your word and I'll respect that.

But I just want to say that I see you struggling in a number of ways.

I see you angry.

I see you frustrated.

I see you short-tempered.

I see you acting in ways that are quite hurtful and don't always make sense.

And as your sister who loves you, it makes me sad and it makes me concerned.

It's also making it really hard for me to know how to meet you these days.

What kind of relationship do you want with me?

Can we talk about some of the painful stuff we went through together as kids?

So this is me going on record saying, I love you.

I want to be close.

I want a better relationship.

And I don't know how to do that.

What do you want?

Are you open to talking and looking at some of this stuff together or should I give you space?

Something like that.

Put the ball in her court.

And if she says, okay, fine.

then maybe you give it another go, see if you can get somewhere.

And if she pulls the same moves, insults you, cuts you down, pulls away, whatever, you can say, well, this is what I was talking about earlier.

Do you think we can try to communicate differently?

Maybe say it with a little less snark than I just did, but just see if she'd be open to doing family therapy.

She can also respond by saying, no, I don't care about being close.

Leave me alone.

And then you have your answer.

And then this process becomes your process of grieving this relationship and working through the sadness and anger and everything else that comes from not being close with your sister.

Although I think it might come with a lot of clarity and relief.

It'll be a mixed bag.

And if she ignores you,

that's an answer too.

That's a really nice script.

I think that's the right conversation at this point because she has tried and she's gotten very little back.

So now it's a different question.

It's like, are you down to try in a new way?

Yes or no?

As for talking to your niece and nephews about their mom, I don't know.

That's a little tricky.

I love that they felt safe coming to you and talking about their mom.

That's a really good sign.

I think it's very special that they have you in their lives with a parent like this, but you have to be careful here.

I mean, if they say, you know, mom yells a lot, it makes me feel bad.

And you say, I'm so sorry, that must feel scary.

Do you want to talk about it?

And you listen and you validate without poisoning the well, I think that's fair game.

If you start saying things like, well, your mom's always been like this, you know, the whole family doesn't know what to do with her.

She won't talk to me.

She won't get help.

That's not appropriate in my view, especially at their age.

They're just still too young.

Yeah, that's the thing.

They're what, eight, 10, 11 max.

My fear, our friend here opens up to them about their mom and they go home and they just repeat everything because they're not old enough to hold these private conversations and her sister will almost certainly fly off the handle.

And then that just confirms everyone's really has been out to get me and you're just manipulating my kids behind my back.

And now I'm cutting access to you forever from them.

It's just awful.

The other thing is these kids are old enough to know that something isn't quite right with mom, but they're not quite old enough, in my view, to start thinking about her as a person, a person who is flawed and who's traumatized.

And this conversation could puncture that appropriate idealization that all young children need to have with their parents.

Although it sounds like that idealization is already being punctured.

It is, but to have your aunt go, so yeah, your mom is unwell.

She's not safe.

She's not stable, even if that's totally true, that could actually destabilize and freak these kids out even more.

When they're older, when they're teenagers, certainly when they're young adults, then I think you have more license to talk about this stuff.

Although I would still advise you to move slowly and move thoughtfully and really let them drive the conversation.

I get the impulse to want to talk to them.

I think the responsibility that you feel is to protect them, but I'm sure that there are a few strands to that.

And one of those strands might be looking for solidarity, looking for allies, even in these children, as strange as that sounds.

Another one might be gathering more data that confirms that your read on her is actually accurate, that she really is as bad as you think.

And honestly, both of those are understandable, but they have the potential to create some problems and some wounds for these kids.

So that's why I think you got to be very disciplined.

Agreed.

Look, the sad reality is that you can't make your sister seek help.

You can't fundamentally change her personality.

And you're responsible for yourself to not subject yourself to more grief, more hurt, more frustration, especially at this really special time in your life.

So keep the door open.

Keep looking for ways to communicate with your sister.

Don't give her reasons to believe that you're abandoning her all over again.

But also, I don't think it's the worst idea maybe to leave some room for her to engage with you.

This is also an opportunity to rewrite this pattern in your family created by your mom of you always having to be the adult and repair things and your sister always being catered to and tiptoed around from the sound of it.

Now,

that might mean not being in a great place with her for a while and that'll require you to bear that distress, which is not always going to be easy.

But it might actually be the most authentic thing to do and it might be a necessary stage in your relationship with your sister.

Maybe you guys got to go through this until you can get to the real conversation.

On that note, there's a book with a very appropriate title.

I would check this out.

It's called Stop Walking on Eggshells.

It's by Paul Mason and Randy Krieger.

This book, I think, is going to be really good for you.

It's about being close with people with BPD or BPD-like personalities and how to understand them, how to communicate well, how to set boundaries, all while taking care of yourself.

Because that's ultimately what your letter is about.

How to attend to your sadness and your joy and how to enjoy your life.

without losing yourself in a relationship with somebody who doesn't have the same tools and capacity for closeness.

There's some important work for you to do here too, and that work is going to involve acceptance, grief, and a refocusing on yourself.

It sounds like you've lost a little bit of that lately.

Sending you and your family a big hug and wishing you all the best.

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Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Okay, next up.

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

At the beginning of the year, I ended a year-long relationship with a girl I was dating.

She was a lovely girl, but things became hard because my 10-year-old son just did not get along with her, and it was causing issues.

She tried her hardest, but he just didn't reciprocate.

There were other reasons for the breakup, but that was part of it.

When we were together, she used to come with me to my best friend of 20 years' house every Saturday morning where a bunch of friends would do a hit workout.

After we broke up, my mental health suffered a bit, and I isolated for three weeks until I felt normal and sociable again.

In that time, I learned that my best friend and his wife invited her to continue the Saturday morning gym sessions whilst I wasn't attending.

I took issue with this and told my friend that I'm not okay with it and that it will cause an issue between us if it continues.

He said, well, maybe you shouldn't have let your partner and my wife become friends then.

But they weren't close friends before we broke up and have only met each other half a dozen times.

I let it slide for a while, then attempted to clear the air between my ex and me.

and started reattending the gym sessions.

It did not go well.

She refused to talk to me or look at me, and when I tried to pull her aside for a five-minute chat, she started yelling at me, and so did my bestmate's wife, who I've also known for 10 years.

Huh.

It's been a few months since this happened, and I've sort of come to terms with the situation.

But recently, my friend invited me to an annual badminton tournament he holds and told me that she will be attending.

Oh,

well, you know what happens at badminton?

She's going to be handling someone's shuttlecock.

You know what I'm saying?

Dude, you're making it so much harder for him.

I know.

I'm just kidding.

What was the badminton?

Oh, was badminton the place that the college student was meeting all these different guys?

She was cleaning up at the badminton.

Right.

That's right.

She was like, I go to these badminton things, and we were like, what is up at badminton?

There must be a lot of downtime.

And then we made the shuttlecock joke like 50 times until people got sick of it.

I knew that sounded familiar.

I was trying to place it.

Yeah.

I told him that if she were attending, I would not be because I'm not going to put myself through the anxiety.

I've explained to him how the whole situation made me feel and the lack of support I received from him.

I haven't received an apology, just the advice to move on.

I'm upset that this happened when I thought that they would have my back in the situation.

Am I being too unreasonable in distancing myself from my best friend because he and his wife chose to continue a relationship with my ex?

Should I try and move past it?

Or do I just accept that some friends don't have your back when it truly matters?

Signed on the outside after needing to cry because my guy is implying.

that my ex is the prize.

Ah, yes, the old who gets to keep the friends in the breakup conundrum.

Tale is old as time.

Tough one.

Okay, there are a bunch of things going on here.

Let's try to pick them apart a little.

First of all, yeah, this sucks, man.

I'm sorry your ex and your son didn't get along.

That is not good.

I'm sorry about the breakup.

I'm sorry about this recent turn of events.

I can appreciate why it's throwing you for a loop.

My sense is that more than anything, it's making you feel kind of alone in all of this.

And I'm sure that this just hits extra hard after losing your partner.

I know that watching people pick teams, even if they're not trying to, can be painful, especially when emotions are running high after a breakup and your ex is not being the kindest or most communicative and you want to feel like your homie has your back.

But actually, that's what I'm most interested in in his letter, what it means to him for someone to have his back.

It sounds like them choosing to be friends with his ex, that feels like a betrayal.

And I guess in a certain way, I do get that.

I also don't know if that's necessarily what it means or what it has to mean.

I mean, is there a world where they can be friends with her and you, especially as things continue to settle down with time?

I'm just a little confused about why this is such a betrayal.

Well, I think the reason he feels this way is they seem to be doing it pretty callously.

Right.

I mean, I'm actually surprised by the way your friend responded to all this, like, well, you maybe you shouldn't have let your partner and my wife become friends then, which is sort of absurd.

I don't know if you're giving us all the information here, but that doesn't sound like the kindest way to respond to a guy, your best friend for 20 years,

who is obviously hurting.

Yeah, that is weird.

This is your best friend.

He couldn't have been like, look, man, I know it's hard for you that Alice and Emily want to stay friends, but it's up to them.

We're not going anywhere.

I'm still here for you, homie.

Come in and have a beer.

He sounds like he's just, you know, hey, suck it up.

This one's on you for bringing her to living room CrossFit.

Come on.

To be fair, those CrossFit bonds, those run deep.

Yeah, yeah, they do.

If you think hot yoga is masochistic, just go to a few hit classes with somebody.

You get real, because it's all that tire flipping.

I think it's the cardio till you puke that'll, that'll trauma bond you for life.

Exactly.

So this raises a question for me, which is, why is your best friend responding to you in this way?

And what does that say about him and about your friendship?

I'm not saying you need to ditch him or anything.

It's just a question and maybe another conversation for you guys to have, if that feels right.

Like, hey, man, I'm a little confused.

If you and Alice want to be friends with the Emily, maybe I can learn to get there.

But the way you reacted when I was struggling with it fresh off the breakup, surprising to me.

It hurt.

I expected a little bit more understanding.

maybe some solidarity.

And since we're homies for 20 years, I just feel the need to tell you that.

Can you help me understand why you responded that way?

But it sounds like he tried to do that and he did not get much back.

Right.

Although I wonder how that conversation went down at the time.

Maybe a few months later, things have calmed down a little bit.

They can try in a different way.

But I hear you.

You didn't receive an apology, just the advice to move on.

And unless you're editorializing here and you're cutting out, you know, 90% of the conversation, that doesn't really sound like a friend who's treating you very well.

But how did the breakup go?

Maybe there was just some big mess that just, because here's the thing, Gabe.

Oh, my son doesn't get along with you and we just can't make you guys click.

Well, I'm really sad about that.

And I understand because I won't be a good stepmom if we get married and if your son hates me, amicable breakup.

But clearly that is not what happened if she won't even look at you on Saturday morning.

So your question is, what happened there?

There's more to it.

What happened?

So there's obviously way more to it.

Yes, she didn't get along with your son.

And you said there's more to it, but that's the tip of the iceberg, obviously.

Is she the problem?

Is he the problem?

Is the son the problem?

Did the dad not try to figure out why the son son was having trouble with her?

Like, there's so much about that subplot that we don't know that might hold a key to all of this.

Well, she's super angry to the point where she won't talk or look at him.

And then when he tried to pull her aside, she yelled at him and so did the friend's wife.

Something bad happened.

It's just not in the letter, which is a little sus somehow.

I got to be honest.

Anyway, to your question, do I just accept that some friends don't have your back when it truly matters?

That's globalizing a little bit.

It's kind of telling a larger story that might or might not be true.

I think the better question is, why is this friend responding like this to me?

Why can't we really talk?

And is it fair for me to expect him to not be friends with my ex?

Why does that matter so much to me?

I'm not saying it's not awkward.

I'm not saying you're crazy for feeling anxious that you're going to run into your ex every Saturday in this friend group.

I think it could, of course, be really hard to be around an ex, especially if things ended poorly.

But to be fair, I don't know if that also means that she just can't be friends with your friends if that's what they want to do.

But how this lands with you, so much of that comes down to how kind and respectful everyone's being about everybody's feelings.

And candidly, a lot of people in this situation just do not seem to be handling this very well at all.

You know, Jordan, I'm kind of scratching my head here a little bit.

I'm finding it hard to put my finger on what is actually happening in this story.

To your point a moment ago, there's a lot going on between the lines.

There are things not included in the letter.

We don't have all the details.

And it's...

Yes.

I'm frustrated because I can't quite get there.

Like I said before, I can't quite put my finger on why.

Like, I get how he feels.

I can also imagine how his friends and X might feel, but there's a fuzziness here that doesn't add up.

We're missing too many details.

What stands out to me about his letter is that there seems to be a lot of conflict in his life, in different parts of his life, right?

His ex and his son didn't get along.

That caused issues.

There were other reasons for the breakup, too.

I do wish he had told us what those were.

He and his friend are having this friction about being friends with the ex.

When he tried to talk to the ex at the workout, to your point, she started yelling at him.

And then his best friend's wife got in on it and yelled at him.

Right.

Now he won't go to a badminton game where she's going to be because the anxiety is just too overwhelming.

And now he has this feeling that some friends, even close friends, just do not have your back, which to your point is a story.

And that story seems to be one born of hurt, yes, but it's also being fueled by what sounds like some suspicion, disappointment, distrust.

And that's at least partly his stuff.

Yeah, a lot of conflict, a lot of turbulence.

I hesitate to draw too many conclusions from all of this, but we're hearing from a guy who was recently heartbroken and might be discovering that his friendships are not quite what he thought they were.

And if that's the case, that might not be entirely bad for him to see.

But it raises some questions for me as well.

Why exactly was it hard for a son to connect with his ex?

This friend who's not being especially empathetic to him right now, is this coming out of nowhere?

Or did he overlook this quality early on and he's only seeing it clearly now?

And this whole thing about the friends picking the ex, what is that about?

Is it just that they like her and they don't want to say goodbye to her?

Or...

And I hate to give him something else to be anxious about, but I do think it's kind of a fair question.

Are they maybe taking her side in the breakup a little bit?

And they're not telling him that.

I had the same thought.

Look, his friends can be friends with him and his ex without necessarily assigning blame or making a ton of judgments.

But it is a little curious to me that the wife and his ex only met each other like six times and now suddenly they're friends, the thickest thieves.

Maybe the breakup brought them together, but maybe what they're hearing about the breakup is also making them identify more with his ex than with him.

Obviously, she controlled the narrative when she started or kept showing up to Saturday classes while he was at home isolating.

I know that he's hurting, so I want to be delicate delicate here, but I guess I just want to invite him to be a little bit more curious about why his friend is responding to him this way, why his ex is yelling at him, why his friend's wife is also yelling at him, why people seem to be prioritizing his ex over him, even also why all of this is provoking so much anxiety in the first place, because all he seems to be able to see right now is, you know, how the whole situation made me feel, the lack of support I received.

Yeah, that's what's nagging at me.

It's a lot of, why isn't everybody giving me what I want?

It's not a lot of, okay, I'm not getting what I want.

Maybe I should try to understand why that is and how everyone else is seeing me in this situation.

And that quality, that lens, can make conflict a lot worse.

It makes it so much harder to resolve.

It also doesn't do much to earn people's goodwill and loyalty.

So I do wonder if that's playing a role as well.

It's also possible that he picked friends who really just don't have his back, just to put another theory on the table.

But I'm with you.

Whenever I hear...

kind of a monolithic statement like, oh, some people just never have your back when it counts.

It tells me that there's some nuance missing here.

It's never as simple as that.

And if it is, there's got to be some reason.

There's just one other thing we need to touch on, which is this tendency he has to stay away from situations that are distressing to him.

You know, he said that he isolated for three weeks after the breakup because he was going through some mental health stuff, which look, again, breakups suck.

Sometimes you just need to be alone.

I get it.

Fine.

But also, is that the best way to take care of yourself when you're going through a breakup?

You know, did it feel impossible for him to show up to his workout class as a guy who was hurting?

You know, what was he afraid that he would encounter there?

Also, maybe him staying away from their class is kind of what made his friends think they could invite the ex.

So in some ways, he might have inadvertently helped create this situation by isolating it.

Like I said, she ended up controlling the narrative, clearly.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

And now he might be doing it again by saying that he won't go to the badminton event because it's just too much.

So I'm not blaming him for this exactly, but I do think he could get, again, more curious about why these places and people are so difficult for him sometimes.

Like if he wants to work out, if he wants to play badminton, what would it look like for him to be there and to be a little bit anxious or a little sad or a little vulnerable?

Like why does he feel the need to stay so far away?

Why does staying away often feel like the only option?

There's something important for him to understand about that, I think.

So to answer your question, I don't know if the answer is necessarily to try and move past this.

I do hope that in time it doesn't hurt as much, of course, but all this frustration and anxiety and confusion, these are opportunities to get to know yourself better and to understand the people around you better.

And if you do that, I promise you'll move through this period just fine and take some great lessons from it as well.

Anyway, lots of potential growth here, bud.

Don't invest in the story too much.

Just try to learn.

And good luck.

You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

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All right, what's next?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I've been with my boyfriend for almost six years.

We both work in semi-niche fields and I'm about to graduate with my master's degree.

I like my current company, but I've grown jaded with the opportunities here and want to use my degree to pursue a job in a more specific part of my industry.

But my boyfriend and I aren't really able to work remotely and our companies are the only options for us in our state.

So for me to get a new job, we need to move.

The problem is that my boyfriend's industry, game development, is really rough.

From a practical standpoint, we agreed that he would get a job first in an area where there are many opportunities for both of us, so in case one of us loses our job, there would be opportunities nearby without needing to move so far again.

Since my boyfriend started looking for a new job a few months ago, he's had a few interviews and rejections.

The whole process really stresses him out.

We recently got the news that he didn't get a job opportunity he was in the final round for.

He's devastated, and I am too.

I now feel like my career is being held hostage.

I just spent around $30,000 to get this degree.

I feel like now's the time to make a big career move, and I can't because my boyfriend can't find a job elsewhere.

I also know it isn't fair to him because he's been trying, but I get the sense of dread that because of this recent blow to his confidence, it'll be even harder for him to search in the future.

I'm trying to look on the bright side.

My career is stable.

I've been asked to take on more responsibility at work, and one of my current projects is super exciting.

There's still that discontent, though.

There have been interesting job opportunities I can't apply to because of my boyfriend.

How can I keep the knowledge I gained from my master's degree so when I do get my chance, I can seize the new opportunities that I want?

In your opinion, does a master's degree quote unquote expire?

If I don't make a career move within the next few months, am I screwed?

What would you do?

Signed, a job seeker tripping and seeing her confidence dipping because the clock is ticking.

Yeah, I hear you on all this.

This is frustrating, and I know the job search, two job searches, which depend on each other, that can be really stressful.

So let's get a couple things out of the way first.

No, a master's degree doesn't expire.

I know you're not asking literally, but unless you have a degree in some very niche technical field where the tech is moving so quickly that what you learn might not apply in five years, like I don't know, maybe machine learning or something.

Maybe then time is of the essence.

But even then, man, I just, I don't think it's really a huge risk.

You're probably not going to go another five years without finding another job.

And frankly, I think saying the quiet part out loud is most employers just make you jump through the hoops of getting a degree because it proves you can work hard in a specific field.

I remember when I started started my law job, I was like, guys, I don't know anything about the law.

I just graduated from law school, but I mean, I was ready.

And they were like, calm down.

It's a screen to see if you are allergic to work.

And I'm like, well, then why the hell did we bother getting law degrees?

And they're just like, eh, it's a requirement to pass the bar, yada, whatever.

You know, you're a glorified secretary for two years.

It's just kind of a rigama roll.

Anyway, your degree, any degree, it just means very little in and of itself.

What you do with the degree, the story you tell about the the degree, that's what matters most.

It sounds salesy and cynical, but it's true.

Very few employers, if any, are going to quiz you about the nuances of your coursework.

They'll probably ask you about your program at a high level, maybe what you got out of it, what your understanding of your industry is, but I just don't think they're going to care all that much about the substance of the curriculum.

And you can also direct those conversations in a way that keeps the focus on the stuff you want to talk about.

Now, if there are specific aspects of your master's degree that are important and you need to keep them fresh, yeah, sure.

Put in the time to keep them alive.

Initiate projects at work that'll require them.

Teach them to your colleagues so they're top of mind.

Held.

Use Chat GPT to quiz you.

Write an article or a blog post about them, which, by the way, I think would also be a great thing to put on your resume and talk about in interviews.

And no, I don't think that if you don't make a career move within the next few months, you're screwed.

It sounds to me like you have a timeline in your head for how this job search should go.

And if you don't make it, then you're in trouble.

That's a lot of pressure.

The job search is stressful enough.

I don't know if you need to also add in this this aggressive timeline, which, by the way, a completely made-up timeline from the sound of it.

I don't think you need to add that on top of it all.

So actually, I think your letter might be about that, the problems you objectively have and the problems you might be inventing or bringing into this situation voluntarily for some reason.

My advice is keep focusing on your job search.

Keep supporting your boyfriend in his job search.

Keep planting seeds.

Keep putting one foot in front of the other.

Every job search has its own logic and timeline.

And I promise you, if you put in the work, everything else will take care of itself.

To agonize over the timing or the details or the consequences if you don't achieve certain things on certain timelines, it's just not going to get you anywhere.

I totally agree, Jordan.

The other thing I think her letter is about is how her boyfriend is navigating his job search.

I thought it was really interesting when she said that he was devastated.

that he didn't get a job opportunity.

He was in the final round for it and it didn't go his way.

Sure.

Now she's devastated.

And she said that the rejection was a real blow to his confidence and now it's creating this sense of dread, which is a very strong word.

And the dread is that it will be even harder for him to search in the future.

So there's something going on there, too.

Well, she's really taking on a lot of his stuff, isn't she?

Or at least being impacted by it quite a bit.

I think so.

And look, in a way, it's normal and sweet, right?

Her boyfriend's having a hard time.

She identifies with him.

She wants very badly for them both to succeed.

I get it.

But it also sounds to me like her boyfriend struggles with rejection.

You know, a disappointment like this is not just a setback.

It's potentially a fatal blow.

And then he loses confidence, he loses esteem, and then she goes through her own process, which might be her anxiety, the same anxiety that might be making her over-engineer this timeline that you were just talking about.

But it might also be partly her taking on his despair, his vulnerability as her own.

Yeah, I can see that.

But to be fair, I think that's how most relationships operate.

It's hard not to be affected by your partner's moods, especially when their fortunes are tied to yours.

And I totally get that.

But still, I think there's something for her to look at there for both of them.

It just sounds to me like there's some subtle process that happens between them when they hit a roadblock, right?

He has a tendency to collapse when he gets rejected, to not maybe process setbacks in a way that allows him to feel the injury, grieve, recover, and then keep going, which is like resilience in a nutshell.

And then she has the tendency to take on that despair and frustration and then to spiral out.

And then also to catastrophize, for example, worrying that it's going to make it even harder for him to search in the future, that they're never going to be able to step into this new chapter.

So what do they do with those assumptions?

What do they do with those feelings?

Are they talking about them?

Are they not talking about them?

I just feel like there's something they could work on there.

Yeah, you can almost see the game of pinball that takes place here.

His feelings, her feelings, his feelings, her feelings, dot, dot, dot.

I'm filled with dread.

We're never going to get new jobs.

We're going to be stuck here forever.

Yes.

And the way out of it is to manage this anxiety and this catastrophizing tendency on her own, for sure.

But also to support her boyfriend however she can in learning to be sturdier so that he can keep putting himself out there and risking rejection, which we all know is part of the job search.

But then when it doesn't go his way, pick himself back up, dust himself back off and keep going.

That's a skill.

I agree 100%.

Also, one last practical thing.

I would investigate all your assumptions about how this job search has to go because I think that's also constraining your options and creating more distress than you need.

I get your logic about both of you finding a job at the same time.

I'm not saying you don't have a good reason for that, but it also sounds to me like you're working very hard to manage your risk and protect your downside, which is very much an anxiety-driven strategy.

And I wonder what would happen if you let go of some of those beliefs about how the job search has to go and in what order and on what timeline, or at least held those beliefs a little more loosely.

Daddy true.

Because there might be a timeline where you get a job first or he gets a job first or you guys make this move anyway.

And then things fall into place or you spend a few months apart while one of you starts a new job and you make that work as so many people do, or you find a way to do the remote thing for a a while.

Or some totally unexpected opportunity pops up while you guys are investing in your relationships and taking meetings and that allows you to take a step in the direction you want.

You just don't know.

But when you cling this tightly to a certain version of what your life should look like, you often miss an even better one.

And you'll create a lot more opportunities to be frustrated, candidly.

Whereas if you just keep putting dots on the board and connecting them up, like I said, the rest just really does tend to take care of itself.

So play with that idea and see what happens.

We're rooting for you guys.

And good luck.

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If you like this episode of feedback friday and you find our advice valuable i invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors all of the deals discount codes and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals and hey if that doesn't work email us we are happy to dig up codes for you it is that important that you support those who support the show now back to feedback friday

All right, time for the recommendation of the week.

I am addicted to Lit Villa.

My recommendation of the week is, I know we got flack last time about saying, put things into ChatGPT because it uses so much power.

But here's the thing.

I did something that really changed the way that I operate today.

I busted out ChatGPT.

I put in all of the vitamins and supplements and medications that I'm taking and when I take them.

And it was like, oh, well, if you're taking this with milk, it's not getting absorbed.

And if you're taking this with this, it's competing for receptors.

So put this later and put this one earlier and you got to take this one with food.

And it was just like, oh, I didn't know any of that.

And I was probably peeing out half my vitamins and making my medications less effective.

And I, of course, I checked with my doctor just to sanity check this.

You could check with any pharmacist too, generally.

And they were like, oh, yeah, this is correct.

I didn't realize you were taking all this at the same time.

Another thing, Gabriel, that I did last night was my mom, she's 83, almost 84.

She's on a bunch of different medications and she takes vitamins.

I threw that stuff into chat GPT and it was like, red flag, you should never take these two medications together.

If your doctor prescribed them, make sure he has a very good reason for you taking these things together.

And so my mom's like, oh, okay, I didn't know that.

And it turns out she just basically didn't read the instructions on the medication.

Oh, wow.

Which, cause I get it.

It's hard to see.

And they probably told her once, three years ago, and blah, blah, blah.

And it wasn't something that was going to kill her.

And maybe the doctor did tell her, fine, take it at the same time.

But it's like, it's going to make you dizzy and it's going to make you feel kind of crappy.

And you're supposed to take this with food.

And if you don't, it's going to make your stomach upset.

And so, you know, these things, why live that way?

Why live that way when ChatGPT can tell you about interactions or when you should take something with food?

There's another thing is, you know, like many people, she takes some thyroid medication.

It was like, make sure you take this 60 minutes away from taking it with food so it gets absorbed quickly.

And don't take anything within four hours of taking this because it'll compete for receptors or potentially have a harmful interaction.

And she's just like, oh, I had no idea.

So throw in this stuff in there.

Chances are you're not going to have a drug interaction.

Most of us are not going to have a lethal or potentially really dangerous drug interaction.

So put everything into ChatGPT, the amount, the name, and when you are taking it.

And you might be pleasantly or unpleasantly surprised about what happens, but it'll tell you how to fix it.

Then you sanity check it with a doctor or pharmacist so you don't screw up something real bad.

And then you can change your medication or supplementation plan.

All right.

That's my recommendation of the week.

And in case you all don't know, there's a subreddit for our show.

If you want to slam about how I am wrong about something, that seems to be a

common hobby of many in the subreddit.

But if there's an episode you like or an episode you didn't like, or you want to opine on a Feedback Friday question, that's all happening over there in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

Okay, what's next?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

A couple months ago, I was laid off from what I thought was my dream job.

I'm now struggling to find the motivation to do literally anything, from applying to job postings and putting together a portfolio to getting out of the house and exercising.

On episode 1179, you talked to an aspiring military chaplain who is being denied from his dream career and said something that stuck with me.

Are you truly called to be a chaplain, or is this possibly a means of vocational therapy?

Yeah, that was an interesting story.

So by vocational therapy, the expert we talked to meant, was that listener trying to sort of therapize himself or work something out through his career that might or might not be a true fit for him?

I've known for a while that my career likely came from a trauma response.

I'm an interior designer and growing up my house was chaotic.

Both of my parents have hoarding tendencies and when I was a teenager several traumatic events my mom experienced sent her into full-blown hoarding.

I couldn't have friends over.

It was nearly impossible to find things that I needed when I needed them.

There was no space anywhere to do anything and the constant stress of living like that changed me.

I moved back in with them in my 20s when I was trying to decide what to do with my life and cleaning their house gradually led me to value interior space in a really profound way.

I found a bachelor's program nearby and the rest is history.

That is fascinating.

What an interesting path to interior design.

It's very personal.

I love it.

About a year into this last job, though, I started really struggling with task management and prioritization.

I was terrible at getting back to people, and all of my projects suffered.

I started to see aspects of my mother's habits and the way she tackles problems creep into how I showed up at work, work, i.e., she ignores them.

I fully admit that I was probably an easy choice when budget cuts led to layoffs.

If I'm being completely honest, it was a relief.

Well, I'm sorry to hear all this, but I really appreciate the way you're taking accountability.

Yes.

And just generally seeing yourself so clearly.

Not everyone can do that.

So, brava, that's half the battle right there.

I'm now trying to figure out my next steps without being too hard on myself.

I love being an interior designer, and I know that it's what I'm meant to be doing, but I feel like my brain is rebelling against me and I don't know what to do.

What if there is some vocational therapy mixed into my motivations?

And what questions should I be asking myself to get out of this funk?

Signed, trying to restart the engines while questioning my intentions, when all I want to do is some spatial intervention.

Man, yeah, great questions.

So first of all, sorry you were laid off.

I'm sorry it's been a struggle to stay connected to your work.

That's never fun.

I know how frustrating it is to not feel like you're consistently connected to what you're doing, like you can't always trust yourself to get things done and earn your keep.

But like I said, your honesty, your clarity, your vulnerability, even in just coming right out and saying, man, I've got some tricky patterns I need to work on.

I'm like my mom in this and that way.

Those are excellent qualities.

So let's talk about your relationship with your work for a second.

You said that a year into your last job, this stuff started to creep in.

It sounds like a struggle to focus, to structure your work, to follow through.

It sounds like there was some flakiness and procrastination in there too.

And at the root of that flakiness and procrastination, it sounds like there was this avoidance, which your mom has too, which I find interesting because we absorb so many things from our parents, good and bad.

And one of them is our basic relationship with the responsibilities of life.

Now, I'm hearing something else in your letter, this funk you described, which, I mean, candidly does sound a little bit like depression or a depression-like experience.

It's hard to say whether the avoidance we just talked about is causing this depressiness.

or whether the depressiness caused the avoidance.

Both can be true.

It's probably a feedback loop.

Maybe they're ultimately the same thing.

Because when you're depressed, it's hard to feel connected to yourself.

It's hard to feel invested in life.

And if you don't feel those things, it's really, really hard to get things done and make things happen.

The tricky thing about depression, Gabe, you've taught me a lot about this.

I'm not as familiar with the mechanics of this stuff, but depression can come in many varieties.

It can serve many different functions.

A while back, we took a letter.

I wish I could remember what it was about.

It doesn't really matter.

We took a letter where we talked about depression as a tamping down of sorts, a shutting down of other more difficult feelings, right?

Depression almost as like a defense.

Yeah, very, very common.

That's right.

So underneath this depression, underneath this avoidance, there's almost always a handful of feelings that we don't want to be in touch with.

Sometimes it's anxiety.

Sometimes it's stress.

Sometimes it's distress.

Sometimes it's shame.

For example, the shame of feeling like we can't keep up or that we're imposters or.

that we promise things we can't actually deliver, which just makes us want to avoid everything even more.

And that vicious cycle, we think it's the work, right, that's turning us off.

And sometimes it is, but usually it's what the work puts us in touch with.

I'm not saying ADD or ADD type stuff isn't real.

It is.

But even if you happen to have that wiring like I kind of do, I still think it's a useful question to ask.

What am I really avoiding when I'm avoiding my work?

What aspects of myself do I not want to have to be in touch with?

I actually make jokes about this.

Like I'll be in the kitchen with Jen and I'll be looking for a snack and she'll be like, what are you looking for?

And I'll go, oh, I'm snack procrastinating because I don't want to write the extras for this episode.

And she's like, you always do this.

And it's like, yeah, I just, I don't like revisiting past work and then trying to summarize it.

It just feels like going backwards to me.

And it's a ridiculous kind of thing.

And I always do that.

I just snack procrastinate.

I end up eating some ruffles and then I got to sit down and do it.

Right.

So it's just a thing that people do and you've got to be aware of it.

Otherwise, it'll kind of control you.

So if you want to climb out of the funk, the question I would be asking is, what are those underlying thoughts and feelings?

What's been hard hard for you to fully acknowledge or own?

And then you're going to have to start playing with bearing those thoughts and feelings while you work and learning to tolerate them enough to follow through on your commitments.

You have to get more curious about them than you are turned off by them or scared of them.

And then you have to see what it's like to be in a relationship with your avoidance.

How you feel when you follow through on a commitment when you're bored.

what new thoughts come up when you stay on top of your work, even when you're bored, whether you still feel depressed or unfocused when you're you're getting things done, or whether getting things done reignites something in you.

My experience is that it does, but you're going to have to discover that for yourself.

Solid advice, Jordan.

I totally agree.

I do understand, though, that, you know, the depression can be caused by many things and it can operate in many different ways.

So, you know, she just went through a huge loss.

She was laid off from a job from her dream career and it's creating a bit of a crisis and she probably doesn't feel very motivated.

There's an interesting connection between her and the boyfriend from the previous question.

You know, just how do you move through these periods of adversity when something gets taken away from you or you don't get what you want?

It's hard to stay connected to your excitement.

It's hard to stay connected to your follow through.

And I just, I feel for her.

And she might just be a little bit messy for a while until she can find her mojo again.

And that is part of the process as well.

But let's talk about this vocational therapy thing for a second because I think that's really interesting.

I'm quite interested in that.

This is new for me too, I think.

So let's clarify something.

What we talked about with that other listener, the aspiring chaplain, when our expert asked if he might be looking for a form of vocational therapy, he meant that he might have been trying to work something out in his own life through this very difficult, very demanding work of ministering to soldiers.

And he was saying that because that listener was struggling to manage some very intense stuff in his own life, anxiety and suicidal ideation, if I recall correctly.

And he might have been getting the signal that this was not his path, or at least it was a question.

What you're describing, being called to interior design, because you grew up in this chaotic house with parents who were hoarders, I think that's very different.

I was going to say, I don't think they're in the same category.

I don't think so either.

She's calling interior design a trauma response, which is a very interesting term to use in this context.

I do wonder if that's pathologizing it a bit too much.

To me, these experiences are informing her calling.

They give her calling meaning.

When I read that part of her letter, especially that bit about how cleaning her parents' house led her to value interior space in a profound way, I was like, man, what an amazing thing to talk about in a job interview.

What a compelling story to share with a client.

I love understanding why people are drawn to to their work.

Same.

I think it's a great sales pitch.

I mean, certainly it's better than, I don't know, I just like decorations, which is kind of how I imagine most interior designers.

It's like, well, why'd you get involved in this?

Oh, I just really like decorating people's homes and designing people's homes.

And you're like, oh, okay.

You know, or I've always been good at it.

Or my friend did it and it looked interesting.

Her story is just so much more compelling somehow.

Because if you hired her, she would have such a connection.

to the work and she I would feel like, oh my God, you're going to make my home livable, navigable, like better.

Not just somebody who who has a good eye for what couch is going to fit in my living room.

Right.

Or whatever.

So there might be something therapeutic to her about this work, but that doesn't mean that her motivations are wrong or confused or self-interested.

To me, that's no different from somebody becoming a therapist because of their own traumas or somebody becoming a writer because of their own obsessions, Gabriel.

So the difference between that being potentially problematic and that being beautiful is, I think, just the degree of awareness you have around it.

Right.

If you know it's there, if you're conscious about how it operates, then you can keep an eye on those motivations and make sure you're deploying them in the right way.

And she's so aware of this origin story.

I don't know.

I'm not worried about it.

It's interesting.

The two questions she's asking are, how do I get out of this funk?

You know, like, how do I overcome my indifference?

But at the same time, how do I make sure that my genuine passion around this calling isn't wrong or corrupt in some way?

Yeah.

On one hand, she's going, I don't care enough.

And on the other hand, she's like, but what if I care too much?

Too much.

Take it easy.

Daddy, chill.

It's just occurring to me that maybe her skepticism about her motivations, which might border on a kind of low-grade paranoia that she's in this work for the wrong reasons or something, maybe that itself is part of the depressive shutting down that we were just talking about.

Yeah.

I'm too passionate about this field.

I'm too connected to this calling.

Maybe given what happened at this last job, I need to modulate that by poking some holes in it.

Oh, interesting.

And one way to poke holes it is to analyze it to death.

And more specifically, what does she do with that analysis?

Because she could use this understanding of her childhood to give beauty and meaning to her calling, or she can use it to diminish it and question her intentions.

You know, a moment ago, you asked her which feelings her depressiness might be tamping down.

I wonder if we just uncovered a couple more.

One of them, this fear of being too passionate, maybe even too much in general, but also maybe some shame around growing up in a home with parents who were hoarders and then wanting to work that out in a very healthy and productive way through this incredibly cool calling of hers.

But why she might feel the need to do that to sort of take the wind out of her sails when she's already struggling, that I'm not quite sure about.

Yeah, me neither.

But that's the question.

I wonder if it's another form of avoidance.

Like, well, I don't have to face all this stuff if my reasons for doing the job are suspect.

Yeah, that could be.

I also wonder if she might be pretty angry and frustrated about this avoidance thing.

And, you know, to be fair, maybe even a little bit angry at her old company, even though she is being very understanding about why they fired her.

But instead of expressing that, she might be turning it against herself.

Like, I'm angry at work and I'm frustrated with my company and I'm just angry about how hard certain tasks are for me.

That becomes maybe there's something wrong with me.

Maybe there's something wrong with my reasons for wanting to do this work.

And that's also often how depression operates.

It takes the unpleasant thing and then it turns it inward because it's easier for some of us to deal with it there.

And that's, I think, when you get into this tearing yourself down thing.

Yeah, I can see that.

It would explain several different parts of her overall response.

So interesting.

So I hope that gives you some new angles here.

The great news is I have zero doubt you're in the right field.

The intense news is that means you can't just chalk this avoidance up to not caring about your work.

But that tells me that the key you're looking for is in the way you relate to yourself, the way you relate to other people, what your work, maybe even responsibility in general, what that's bringing up for you, which is also great news.

So start there, talk this out with people, dig deep, keep putting yourself in situations where you have to follow through.

and lean into this avoidance.

And keep sharing your story along the way.

I think it's a very special one.

And good luck.

Go back and check out Javier Leva on romance scammers if you haven't done so yet.

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