1175: Text Fight Turns You Into a Villain Overnight | Feedback Friday

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Speaker 1 Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

Speaker 1 As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer The Stainstick, helping me remove those unsightly splotches of life drama, Gabriel Mazrahi.

Speaker 3 Oh, a laundry-related nickname. That's a new category for you.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I feel like it is. But two, just so you know, I did a...
I did a couple versions before I landed on that one.

Speaker 1 You do.

Speaker 3 You have alts. Let's hear it.

Speaker 1 Well, I thought the Tide Pod Pod exploding in kids' mouths was not a great way to introduce you. It's not quite the theater of the mind that we're going for here on the show.

Speaker 3 No, completely inaccurate. And why would you even consider that one on the way to the stainstone? Well, don't you?

Speaker 1 You remember the trend of kids eating Tide Pod?

Speaker 3 Oh, I got it. Okay, just making sure.

Speaker 3 It makes sense.

Speaker 3 It's a weird way to introduce your co-hosts. It is.

Speaker 1 It's a little graphic somehow.

Speaker 1 On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Speaker 1 Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

Speaker 1 During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, drug traffickers and arms dealers, cold case homicide investigators, hostage negotiators.

Speaker 1 This week, we had a Tusa Abrahamian on where billionaires and dictators hide their money, store their loot, art, etc., buy passports so that they can blend in with the rest of us.

Speaker 1 Really a fascinating peek behind this dodgy curtain for the elite.

Speaker 1 On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and kick our feet up on the timeless ottoman of our dear listeners' conundrum.

Speaker 1 Before we kick off, Jen and I just got back from a trip to Europe. It was quite short.
I want to give a shout out to Shannon in Paris, who's a show fan.

Speaker 1 She helped us find all kinds of amazing things in the city.

Speaker 1 Shannon made time out of her day, spent Sunday with us, took us to all these really cool places, sent us a bunch of recommendations that really helped make our Paris trip absolutely amazing.

Speaker 1 She really went the extra mile, and it was such an amazing highlight for us to be able to spend time with her and get recommendations from a local in Paris.

Speaker 3 That's so awesome that you guys met up. I love this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, actually, in Taipei, we experienced this in Taipei a few months back. We ran into a random show fan at a cafe.
That was fun, but we also met with another amazing show fan named Victor.

Speaker 1 Victor took us out to a really awesome, actually, amazing, epic dinner. And it was the most fun thing we did while we were in Taipei, hands down.

Speaker 1 He brought a bunch of his friends who were also American-born Chinese, were living in Taipei. And we, I haven't laughed that hard for so long, like crazy amount, like belly ache level laughter.

Speaker 1 And it was really, really fun. These types of travels, they're always made by the people.
It's not the sights you see. It's, you know, it's not the Eiffel Tower.
It's not the food.

Speaker 1 It's the people that you share it with, which means you can go anywhere and have an amazing time. It doesn't have to be Paris.
It can be anywhere. You don't have to stay at Maison-Proust or whatever.

Speaker 1 But if you make friends while you're there, the trip was worthwhile. And I've met a lot of show fans in almost every country that I travel to.

Speaker 1 And I have to say, it's almost always the highlight of the whole trip. I'm consistently super impressed by the quality of our listeners.
They're always really switched on, cool people.

Speaker 1 They're successful.

Speaker 1 And frankly, the highest compliment that I think we receive is the fact that these people give us their time and attention every week and then actually want to meet up with us in person sometimes.

Speaker 1 I feel like that's the highest compliment because there's a lot.

Speaker 3 Totally.

Speaker 1 I listen to certain podcasts and it's like, I don't need to meet the host.

Speaker 3 No, our show family is unique. It's really incredible.
And by the way, if you guys are in Lisbon, Porto, Madrid, Berlin, Japan this summer or fall. Let me know.

Speaker 3 It would be really fun to see if we overlap because I'm getting a little jelly over here hearing about Jordan's adventures with our listeners.

Speaker 3 But Jordan, we also have some interesting characters in our show fam, apparently, right? They're not all

Speaker 3 Shannon's and Victors. Are they? You remember the video that somebody posted to our subreddit? So we got to talk about this.

Speaker 1 This is hysterical. I see we're really active on the subreddit for the show, Jordan Harbinger.
You can find it on Reddit if you're a Redditor. Someone goes, I can't believe this.

Speaker 1 Check out, go to minute. I don't know.
It's like 127 or whatever it was. And there's this video.
It's a body cam video. First of all,

Speaker 1 you know, it's going to be something when it's a police body cam video, right? So I started it. It's a cops body cam at the baggage claim of like, I don't know, San Francisco airport or something.

Speaker 1 And there's a lot of cops. And there's a guy standing there saying weird stuff.
I mean, this guy's like on some pills or something.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he sounded kind of loopy. And like he wasn't really making sense.
He looked really, he looked like he was lost and confused about where he was. It was like, sir.

Speaker 3 Are you looking for your luggage? Are you trying to catch a flight?

Speaker 1 Talking about like sexual stuff. And then he's like, my wife's coming to pick me up.
And I don't know. He just clearly had been reported by other people at the airport.

Speaker 1 So this listener who found the video goes, pause it at 127. So of course, 127 shows up and the guy's holding his phone.
And I just see my own face on this body cam video.

Speaker 1 He's just got the latest Feedback Friday episode just straight paused. So good.
And I'm like, okay, all right. He's a show fan, too.

Speaker 1 To be fair, I feel like we give the guy a break because he probably was super nervous for whatever flight he was on, popped his annex, and then had a GNT or two on the plane and then multiplier effect, whatever.

Speaker 1 And he just lost his mind.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he did. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So far be it from me to mock somebody who would listen to this podcast while totally schwasted trying to find his luggage on the carousel and trying to talk his way out of trouble with airport police because that guy could easily be the CEO of a tech company for all we know.

Speaker 3 Easily. But also, do you think maybe he was loopy because it was just too much dues?

Speaker 1 Too much dues. He got overdose.

Speaker 3 You ever listened to Feedback Friday so hard you can't find your luggage?

Speaker 1 You can't function. You get arrested by the police at SFO.
Yeah. So for every victor, there's a this guy getting chokeslammed at the baggage claim.

Speaker 3 Oh, man. I got to say, I love when people tell us where they listen to the show.

Speaker 3 Like, I love when people are like, I'm at the gym and I have to try not to laugh out loud on the treadmill so people don't look at me or I listen when I'm at the grocery store or whatever.

Speaker 3 Like I love knowing where people listen, but I never in a million years pictured somebody listening to it in baggage claim while intoxicated while being questioned by the police.

Speaker 1 That is a new I'm listening to this in the back of a police car

Speaker 3 while handcuffed. Hits different in a prowler.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it hits different when your face is pushed against linoleum tiles. There's a knee in your back.
Oh my God. All right.
We got some fun ones. We got some doozies.
Try not to overdo it, folks.

Speaker 1 All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Speaker 3 Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I was in a relationship for about a year and a half with a woman I love deeply.
She's a single mom, and I genuinely grew to care for her six-year-old daughter, too.

Speaker 3 Our relationships had its ups and downs, especially due to her intense work training, her health challenges.

Speaker 3 She suffered from severe sleep deprivation, among other things, and an unexpected pregnancy and failed abortion that took a deep emotional toll on her.

Speaker 1 So, what is failed abortion? That sounds terrible, but what does that mean? How is that possible?

Speaker 3 So, apparently it can mean an abortion attempt that was not successful in terminating the pregnancy and the pregnancy somehow continues to develop but usually it means that the pregnancy was terminated but not all of the tissue was removed i know this is a bit gruesome so then you have to have an additional procedure or take medication to complete it

Speaker 3 okay either way bruh rough that's not an easy thing to go through so this poor woman had to deal with that i'm sorry to hear that I always tried to support her practically and emotionally, sometimes at the cost of my own needs.

Speaker 3 I adjusted, listened, and gave, often quietly. But over time, I started to feel like nothing I did was enough, and that my efforts weren't truly seen or received.
That hurt.

Speaker 3 Then things unraveled in an abrupt and painful way. A misunderstanding over text escalated into her accusing me of not caring that she had cancer, even though I didn't know because she hadn't told me.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 From that point on, she shut me out entirely, removed me from social media, deleted photos in our shared playlists, blocked communication. It was like I had been amputated from her life.

Speaker 3 Now I'm stuck with this unbearable feeling, not just that the relationship is over, but that she's rewritten me as the villain.

Speaker 3 It's as if every moment we shared, every caring gesture, has been repurposed to fit a narrative where I was selfish, distant, and unloving, none of which aligns with how I showed up or who I know myself to be.

Speaker 3 It makes me question whether she ever truly saw me or only the projections of her own fears.

Speaker 3 I've been reflecting deeply on all this and I know I wasn't perfect, but I also know I was present, caring, and honest.

Speaker 3 How do you move forward when someone you loved rewrites your intentions and the story you shared into something you barely recognize?

Speaker 3 And how do I keep my heart open for future love without building walls of resentment or shame? Signed, formerly smitten, now severely frostbitten, now that our narrative's been completely rewritten.

Speaker 1 Man, yeah, good questions. Well, look, I'm very sorry things played out this way.
This sounds like a complicated relationship.

Speaker 1 There was a lot happening beneath the surface for both of you, I think, and it clearly brought up some difficult stuff.

Speaker 1 In another way, though, it actually sounds like there was a lot going unsaid in your relationship and some old patterns that needed to get disrupted or brought to light.

Speaker 1 So in that way, as painful as it is, I think it's probably for the best. You both have some interesting work to do here.
So it's hard to know what to make of this relationship.

Speaker 1 Obviously, as always, we're only hearing your side of things.

Speaker 1 We don't fully know how you showed up in the relationship, what her experience of you was, how you communicated all this love and concern, and this misunderstanding by text that led to everything unraveling.

Speaker 1 I'm a little curious to know what that misunderstanding was. Because, okay, you said you weren't perfect, which I appreciate that you're making room for that.

Speaker 1 But to be honest, a lot of the details you've shared, they just kind of strike me as bizarre and irrational and unfair. Like the cancer thing, getting mad at you for not caring about her.

Speaker 1 cancer when you didn't know she'd been diagnosed with cancer. That just sounds totally odd to me.
And frankly, it kind of strikes me as manipulative.

Speaker 1 And I understand that emotions run high around a serious illness. That totally makes sense.

Speaker 1 You also mentioned a number of huge stressors and traumas leading up to that that probably made her snap, kind of. So again, I really do feel for her.

Speaker 1 But so much of this behavior, including her turning on you so profoundly and then cutting you out of her life completely, that does raise some questions for me.

Speaker 1 I mean, I can't even believe she remembered to delete your shared playlist. Like, that's just a weird, that wouldn't even make the checklist for me.

Speaker 1 But I know you're not asking for a post-mortem of the relationship. I get that.

Speaker 1 You're asking about how to deal with the fact that somebody you loved has a very different narrative of you and of the relationship, which is a really interesting question.

Speaker 1 And the only answer, I think, is to accept that that's part of the deal when it comes to breakups, even relatively amicable ones.

Speaker 1 Because at the end of the day, there are three narratives at play in a breakup. Yours, the other person's, and the truth, the objective ground truth, if there is such a thing.

Speaker 3 Right. And each party gets to choose the narrative that they want to live with, even if it's not entirely accurate.

Speaker 1 Super interesting. And as we all know, all of this is so subjective.
So of course it's not entirely accurate. Now, all of this is still very raw for you.
You just broke up.

Speaker 1 So making peace with that fact is going to be hard. You're still hurting.
I think you're kind of mentally defending yourself. That's perfectly normal.

Speaker 1 But over time, and this will start soon, it'll become easier and easier to accept that your ex has her own feelings. her own conclusions, and that's okay.

Speaker 1 You'll come to see that her viewing you as the villain, sure, maybe that was tied to certain things you did or said, but it's largely a reflection of her own needs, her own feelings, wounds, projections, like you said.

Speaker 1 That doesn't mean that they're unfair, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're the bad guy. You didn't abuse her, you didn't cheat on her, you didn't abandon her.

Speaker 1 So for her to be so black and white about you, I mean, honestly, the more we talk about it, the more I wonder if she might have some mental health stuff going on. I don't want to speculate too much.

Speaker 1 Point is, accepting these competing narratives, that's part of the grief process. And that comes with some anger, some sadness, some resentment, some embarrassment.
All of that is normal too.

Speaker 1 But as much as you can, I would make peace with this fact. Let her work through the story she wants to work through and you work through yours.
That's all you can do.

Speaker 3 Well said, Jordan, I totally agree. Letting somebody keep their narrative can be really hard.
You know, there's a part of all of us that wants to be right.

Speaker 3 that wants to keep relitigating a relationship or defend certain choices or things we said or whatever.

Speaker 3 And, you know, when you break up with somebody, there's that open loop that the mind wants to close and it just can't do that.

Speaker 3 Also, though, to be fair to her, you know, maybe she had some good reasons for cutting off all contact. I agree that the shared Spotify playlist thing, that's a little petty.

Speaker 3 It's like, how mad do you have to be at somebody for you to be like, no, and you don't get to enjoy the Rihanna song either.

Speaker 3 You're going to have to look that up on your own and re-add it to a new playlist.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's hurtful. It's jarring.
And I really do understand that. But.

Speaker 3 All the other ways that she distanced herself from our friend here might have been appropriate, you know, even if his intentions in the relationship were good.

Speaker 3 It's possible that she found some of his caretaking difficult for her. Maybe she found it a little disempowering or overwhelming.

Speaker 3 Maybe she just needed to be on her own for a while without his influence. She might not have handled all of this very well, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was being, you know, malicious.

Speaker 3 And that's part of making room for her narrative too. Just knowing that she might have some good reasons for herself.

Speaker 1 But you know, the fact that that feeling is so unbearable, to use his word, I think that's part of the equation too. Yes, yes.

Speaker 3 And it is interesting in the context of their dynamic. I mean, he said he always tried to support her practically, emotionally, sometimes, as he put it, at his own expense.

Speaker 3 Then there was that thing he said, how he adjusted, listened, and gave, often quietly, which is also a really interesting thing to include.

Speaker 3 Even though he started to feel like nothing he did was enough, she didn't really see or receive his efforts. I mean, that's quite a statement.

Speaker 3 It makes me wonder what the quality of his love was in the relationship.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that jumped out at me too.

Speaker 1 She might have been a tricky person to care for, but the way he cared, why he felt compelled to give her so much at his own expense, I think that's kind of just as important here.

Speaker 3 This does sound like a classic case of caretaking and possibly some codependence, both of which have old roots, you know, for both of them probably, and both of which kick up a lot of intense feelings for the people involved.

Speaker 3 Like you said, there's resentment and shame and anger and frustration. Even if it is well-intentioned, we probably don't even know the half of it.

Speaker 3 Let's also not forget all the other things that his ex has gone through. Being a single parent, not getting enough sleep.
I mean, that alone could drive you a bit insane, right?

Speaker 3 But then she also had a failed abortion, which must be so unpleasant. And then she got cancer.
These are significant stressors. These are pretty big traumas.

Speaker 3 I do wonder, you know, how she was taking care of herself through all of that, what she might have looked for him to take care of her, what he thought it was his job to take care of.

Speaker 3 Really, I'm curious to know what they might have been working out together in this dynamic and trying to resolve, perhaps without fully realizing it.

Speaker 3 So I guess I want to encourage him to get curious about all of that more than harping on her opinion of of him and her narrative of their relationship.

Speaker 3 That latter piece is interesting, but it's not super productive. The first thing, though, what was playing out between them, that's extremely valuable for him, and that is his work to do.

Speaker 1 I also get the sense that he has a bit of an identity wrapped up in being a certain kind of partner.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes, because he kept mentioning being seen also as a certain kind of partner.

Speaker 1 Exactly. I was really happy when he said that none of her judgments about him align with who he knows himself to be.

Speaker 1 That's really commendable that he's still connected to his own values, his own rubric, but there's still something about her disappointment, her rapidly shifting feelings and opinions that's just doing a number on him.

Speaker 1 And I think that that's what's so distressing to him about her narrative.

Speaker 1 Not just that it's sad and unfair, but that he might have lost an important source of validation, an important source of fuel for his self-esteem.

Speaker 3 That might be part of the codependence as well, you know, part of the unconscious script playing out between them because...

Speaker 3 Subordinating his own needs and losing himself in this role in order to take care of her so much, that must have served him in a few ways. What you just said is probably one of them.

Speaker 3 Another one might be feeling the need to prop a person up, hold them together, make sure that they're okay all the time.

Speaker 3 I am speculating now myself a little bit, but I have to imagine that that echoes something in his past or something in his family of origin for that to feel so necessary, so familiar.

Speaker 1 For sure, it has to, right? As for keeping your heart open to future love, not letting this resentment or shame close you off from people.

Speaker 1 Just the fact that you're keeping an eye on that, I think, is great news. That's half the battle.

Speaker 1 I also think that doing the forensics Gabe was just talking about, really exploring how you showed up in this relationship, how you related to your ex, what this template brought up for you, all of that is going to help you resolve the resentment and shame.

Speaker 1 And noticing the patterns you fell into in the relationship, especially that caretaking thing, committing to rewriting them in your next one, I think that's the best way to keep your heart open.

Speaker 1 Because ultimately, caretaking, codependence, that's not true love. It's love with an agenda, with an agreement, with a calculus.
with all kinds of complicated unconscious material in and around it.

Speaker 1 So my advice is in your next relationship, make a conscious effort to stay more connected to yourself. Catch yourself every time you're losing yourself and being there for the other person.

Speaker 1 Speak up when something bothers you. Allow your partner to appropriately struggle, take care of their own stuff, and just see what happens to your dynamic.

Speaker 1 My hunch is that it might feel weird and scary sometimes.

Speaker 1 It might even feel like you're being a bad partner, but actually, it's just rewriting a very old template and that frees up more of you, the authentic you.

Speaker 1 and more territory for a healthier connection.

Speaker 3 It also selects for partners who share those values, who have that capacity, and and that's the other half of the battle.

Speaker 1 Yes. Partners who want a more high-functioning relationship and can tolerate these feelings better.
So this really does address both sides of the equation, but it begins at home.

Speaker 1 Anyway, it's all learning, my man. I'm sorry you're hurting.

Speaker 1 I know it's intense, but it does sound like this relationship wasn't quite working, and now you get to figure out why and try things in a new way.

Speaker 3 Good luck.

Speaker 1 And as Gabe gets ready to go abroad, folks, don't make him start an OnlyFans to support his new lifestyle.

Speaker 1 Just support the amazing sponsors that make the show possible and keep Gabe just barely closed, as it were, over here with your tank tops, your spiritual gangster tank tops.

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Speaker 1 Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Speaker 1 Okay, what's next?

Speaker 3 Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a frontline manager at a major corporation, and my job is very demanding, requiring me to be on call and respond 24 hours a day.

Speaker 3 As a result, I hold my family time on my days off as sacred. The problem is, my direct supervisor is a workaholic.

Speaker 3 He stays engaged 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, often staying at the office after all his work is done, just because he feels it's important to be seen there.

Speaker 3 He tells me that days off are, quote, a recommendation, not a right.

Speaker 1 False, but okay.

Speaker 3 Go on. And expects me to work through my days off as well.

Speaker 3 I've talked to his supervisor and his supervisor supervisor about this, and they've both told me that I need to make my family time a priority on my days off.

Speaker 3 When I pointed this out to to my supervisor, he told me that that's what they say, but it's not what they really want.

Speaker 3 The biggest issue is that this guy is in charge of my performance reviews and has given me negative reviews that have cost me raises and performance bonuses because I'm not as involved as he expects me to be.

Speaker 3 How do I address this issue that is taking money out of my pocket and still maintain a positive work environment with my supervisor?

Speaker 3 Signed, trying to defend these hours I spend with a dude who's content to burn the candle at both ends.

Speaker 1 Man, Gabe, this is one of those letters that makes me so happy that I don't work in corporate life anymore.

Speaker 1 I'm not trying to pile on here, but working for bosses like this is not something I miss from my law firm days. Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1 I'm all for working hard. Bosses are allowed to push their employees to give it their all.

Speaker 1 I'm still kind of a workaholic myself in some ways, but I get to do it for something that I own and I know makes an impact. I'm not in my studio at 4 a.m.
to impress. progressive auto insurance.

Speaker 1 What this boss is doing, it's not just working hard to accomplish things. He's going for FaceTime.
He's doing it for the optics.

Speaker 1 I'm guessing he doesn't have a partner or kids or much of any kind of life outside of work. Or if he does, he's severely neglecting them and he can get away with that somehow.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's going to be the kids don't talk to me and he's going to get divorced and, you know, his wife's going to leave him. But, you know, that's what allows him to make work his top priority.

Speaker 1 A lot of other people don't have that option. But dude, even if you're Elon Musk putting in 20-hour days at Tesla at its peak or whatever.
There's still something just pathological about this.

Speaker 1 There might be good reasons to work your butt off, but you still have to be a little out of of your tree to regularly be checking your email at three o'clock in the morning and staying in the office till 10 p.m.

Speaker 1 on Sundays or whatever. But it also sounds like you work for a pretty intense company.
They expect you to be on call, respond 24 hours a day too. So maybe this is just the culture there.

Speaker 1 Either way, I feel for you here, especially as a parent. What frustrates me the most about this is I just, I just cannot with this whole hustle culture.

Speaker 1 People got to see me working in order for me to feel like I'm actually working. The only thing that ultimately matters is results.

Speaker 1 If you can get all the same things done in a regular eight-hour day or 10-hour day, even if you have to work a little over the weekends, whatever that looks like, you are not the lazy and misguided one.

Speaker 1 The guy who sits in his office for 100 hours a week, that's the inefficient, performative guy.

Speaker 3 Come on. Yeah, that's a good point.
That said, though, I do wonder if your manager might be right about one thing.

Speaker 3 These higher-ups who are telling you to make your family time a priority on your days off. Maybe they really mean that.
I certainly hope they do.

Speaker 3 But they might also be saying that to not break any laws or contradict some putative policy about work-life balance or discrimination or something, when really they actually do reward people like your supervisor.

Speaker 3 But I just bring that up because, yeah, it is possible that your supervisor's values and priorities are out of whack, but his understanding of your company is not.

Speaker 1 Good point. He might be a good politician and he could read between the lines, but that doesn't make this a smart policy.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 1 So you have a few options here. Option one, You stay, you continue to give this company what you're willing to give them.

Speaker 1 You accept that your supervisor might never be totally pleased with you, which probably means more mixed performance reviews, more lost income, but you make peace with it because you value your family and your free time a lot more.

Speaker 1 Option two, you stay, but you find some creative ways to shift this situation. One way would be to transfer to another team with another supervisor.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure if that's doable for you right now, but people do it all the time. Sometimes you just need to get out from under a difficult boss.

Speaker 1 Another thing you could do is have a very direct conversation with your boss.

Speaker 1 If I were in your shoes, I'd want to talk to him about why he operates the way that he does, how he measures performance, how he values his time, your time, why putting in so many public hours is so essential to him.

Speaker 1 That might seem a little scary, but I'm not sure how much you have to lose at this point. All of this is already out in the open.
You're already paying a price for it.

Speaker 1 One goal here would be to really try to really understand this guy. You know, if he's like, I stay till midnight, I work Sundays because I can't look at myself in the mirror if I don't.

Speaker 1 And I need the bosses to know that I'm a team player. Then you'll know that this is largely performative.
It's probably something you don't want to play along with.

Speaker 1 And maybe it's even a sign that this is not the company for you anymore if they only value behavior like this.

Speaker 1 But if he's like, I work this much because I have XYZ goals at this place and I'm committed to achieving A, B, C for the bosses, I've decided to sacrifice my personal life to accomplish things I truly care about.

Speaker 1 Okay, that kind of thing, that might give you a different opinion of this guy.

Speaker 3 That's a good point. Yeah, that's right.
Because how meaningful is this time he's spending? But he did say that he spends time in the office after he's done with his work.

Speaker 3 So that makes me think that it's probably more of the former. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But look, even if this is more meaningful time for the boss, I imagine that wouldn't change things for our friend here if his family is still his top priority, right?

Speaker 3 He's not going to give this guy more of his time, even if these long hours spent are important.

Speaker 3 Also, just because it's meaningful to the boss, that doesn't automatically make it meaningful to him.

Speaker 1 Right. But then the hit to the paycheck, that's something that is meaningful.

Speaker 3 That is, that is meaningful. That's right.

Speaker 1 So that's a question too, man. How important is this lost income to you? Because, well, is it more important than family? Is it less important? Is it hard to say which one is more important?

Speaker 1 That's something I'd really get clear on. But actually, the more interesting goal in this conversation is to try to get your boss to value your efforts differently.

Speaker 1 And I wonder what would happen, for example, if you said, look, I'm never going to be able to put in the hours you do. I have a family.
They need me. I don't want to miss my life.

Speaker 1 And candidly, I'm not sure it's necessary to fulfill my responsibilities. I accept that you do.
And in a certain way, I respect that, but it's just, this is not an option for me.

Speaker 1 But as long as that falls short of your expectations, it seems like I'm always going to be failing, which is frustrating to me because I can achieve the impact you want without necessarily spending all these hours in the office.

Speaker 1 And I'm sure you'd agree that at the end of the day, the results are what actually matter.

Speaker 1 So if I achieve those results, help me understand why it matters so much that I'm spending as much time in the office. I understand the optics of it.

Speaker 1 I'm sure you have your reasons, but I'm struggling to understand why this should cost me raises and performance bonuses.

Speaker 1 So is there a way that I can live up to your expectations while still being a good partner, a good father, something like that, and just kind of force him to defend his position and consider whether he's being overly rigid here.

Speaker 3 It's a bold script, but I don't know. I like it.
I mean, they're already a little bit, things are already a little awkward. So I don't know how much he has to lose.

Speaker 3 Like, it's just stating the obvious.

Speaker 1 Sure. And look, he might dig his heels in, or he might come to understand you better and see that he's holding you to a certain standard, a largely dumb standard that just is not realistic.

Speaker 1 Or maybe you guys negotiate. Maybe you offer him a little more time and some extra communication that shows him what you're achieving in less time and he backs off.

Speaker 1 If that fails, you can try to talk to the higher-ups again, maybe even HR, see if there's a way to resolve this.

Speaker 1 Maybe they need to have a chat with him about how he manages people, whether those expectations that he has are reasonable.

Speaker 1 Or look, if they refuse to intervene, then you'll know for sure that they actually share his views most likely, and there's no way around that.

Speaker 3 And then it's time to switch teams or you jump to another company. I don't know if that's doable for you right now.

Speaker 3 I don't know what the market is like, but it might be the only solution here, and it might not be a bad one.

Speaker 3 And if this turns out to be a question of culture or corporate values, then this might be an opportunity for you to find a company that shares your values and that has more flexibility for working parents.

Speaker 3 And I know those companies are out there. So who knows? Maybe there's a better place for you waiting.

Speaker 3 I don't know if you can really address this and maintain a totally positive environment with your boss. It sounds to me like things are already a little tense with him, like I said.

Speaker 3 Not sure if that's going to improve. I hope it does, but who knows?

Speaker 3 But the way you handle this conversation, like the one that Jordan just pitched, I think that's going to determine how positive this turns out to be.

Speaker 3 If you go to your boss and you're like, hey, this is ridiculous. You're the reason I can't fund my 401k.
You're performative. These hours you spend here are meaningless.
What is this about?

Speaker 3 That's probably just going to piss him off, obviously. Yeah.
But if you go in there and you say, look, I want to find a solution that works for both of us.

Speaker 3 I understand that our circumstances are different. I want to do right by you and the company and I want to be there for my family.
So can we put our heads together? Can we figure this out?

Speaker 3 It's going to be hard for him to hate you. It might be a little tense, but if he turns on you for being collaborative and wanting to find a solution, then that is kind of on him.

Speaker 3 And that's one more data point that you probably need to consider some other options.

Speaker 1 I'm also curious to know if anyone else in your department is struggling with this.

Speaker 1 If so, talk to those people, ask them how they're navigating these expectations, whether they're capitulating or pushing back or getting dinged for not working 80 hours a week.

Speaker 1 Also, if you decide to go to the higher-ups, maybe you can get a group together that'll probably make them take this a little bit more seriously.

Speaker 1 Also, keep documenting your responsibilities, your contributions, your impact, the feedback you're getting across the company. This is a great practice for anyone, no matter what.

Speaker 1 And then every quarter or halfway through the year or whatever, right before performance reviews, summarize everything in a brief memo or a deck and send it to your boss.

Speaker 1 And if he still dings you, then you'll have a much more solid case to show that the metrics he's using are just sus.

Speaker 1 And if he rewards you, it might be because he's forced to recognize that you are having the impact that he wants.

Speaker 1 But ultimately, what this guy's doing is he's forcing you to really prioritize what matters to you. That is stressful, but it is also clarifying.

Speaker 1 And even if he's right about putting in FaceTime, this guy doesn't get to dictate your true values.

Speaker 1 You have to decide that and then create a life that supports them, which also means accepting certain trade-offs sometimes, but that's compatible with finding ways of working smarter, focusing on results, putting in a little extra time to communicate those results.

Speaker 1 So don't overlook that stuff either. Sorry, this is stressful, but it's going to get resolved one way or the other, and we're rooting for you.
You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

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Speaker 3 All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe.
I was an only child raised in a conservative Christian household.

Speaker 3 My parents considered themselves missionaries, although they were not affiliated with any church.

Speaker 3 And when I was two years old, they packed up into an RV and moved down to the Boonies on the Texas-Mexico border. eventually traveling all over the most remote parts of the southwest.

Speaker 3 During this time, neither of them worked. They just lived off of their savings.

Speaker 1 Fascinating. What an unusual childhood that must have been.

Speaker 3 As I grew, they homeschooled me. That's homeschooled in quotes.
They've always been so proud of the fact that they took me out of civilization to protect me from the evils of American culture.

Speaker 3 The result was that I grew up severely sheltered with a maybe middle school level education and very little memory of my childhood because my brain blocked most of it.

Speaker 3 That's possibly due to trauma, but likely just because it was so incredibly boring. Being in the middle of nowhere with no friends, no structure, structure, no hope for the future.

Speaker 3 I read any books I could get my hands on. And that's how I learned most of what I know about life.

Speaker 3 Fascinating.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
I'm having so many thoughts over here. We've heard from a few people who've been homeschooled over the years.
It can really hamstring you later in life if it's not done properly.

Speaker 1 But then we did this skeptical Sunday on homeschooling. That was episode 1119.
And the research was interesting. It shows that the results are actually very mixed.

Speaker 1 It all, of course, depends on who's doing the teaching. But the fact that you read any books you could get your hands on, that you had that drive on your own, that's just fantastic.

Speaker 3 Man, I'm so curious where that quality comes from.

Speaker 3 Like, why would one kid who grows up in an environment like this want to seek this stuff out and another kid might just settle for the education that they're getting, such as it is?

Speaker 1 I don't know. It is super interesting.
Whatever the reason, I'm sure it's made a huge difference in her life. And thank God she had a library card or a Kindle or whatever at least.

Speaker 3 When I was 20-ish, they moved us to Oklahoma to be closer to my dad's mom, who was aging.

Speaker 3 It was news to me that they cared enough to do that, as they'd always said how much they didn't like either of their families.

Speaker 3 Regardless, that gave me the opportunity to get my GED and learn more about how to be a human.

Speaker 3 A couple of years later, we ended up in Colorado where my parents own land with an old mine, a deteriorating mill building, and mineral rights that they picked up for a song back in the late 90s.

Speaker 1 I'm riveted by this. I don't know why particularly.

Speaker 3 I know, I feel like I'm reading a Cormac McCarthy novel or something. It's mineral rights, weird land, dusty southwestern landscapes.
I'm into it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm picturing Tumbaweed rolling past some old wooden mill and they're like, yeah, there's gold. And then they,

Speaker 1 what are you talking about? It does sound like the origin story for a Cohen brothers character.

Speaker 3 I don't know. Yeah, the ballad of Buster Scruggs or something like that.
Have you seen that movie, Jordan? No. Oh, you gotta watch it.
Next time we're together, we're gonna watch that. So good.

Speaker 3 So, the letter goes on.

Speaker 3 I got a job and eventually sneaked my way into college through the back door by starting off as non-degree seeking and then changing to degree seeking after a couple of semesters as my SAT scores were just plain embarrassing.

Speaker 3 Even though college was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life, I ended up thriving and graduated summa cum laude with top honors in my department.

Speaker 1 My friend, you're amazing. Yeah.
To go from this childhood to graduating summa cum laude with so few resources, that is remarkable. Also, sneaked.

Speaker 3 Yeah, sneaked instead of snuck. Yeah.
I wouldn't say sneaked, and I'm kind of annoying about the grammar.

Speaker 1 I feel like that's the right way to do it, but then everyone just says snuck.

Speaker 1 So it's one of those, it's going to be one of those where you look it up and they're like, yeah, we changed the entire English language because nobody got this right. So now they're both correct.

Speaker 3 I think that's kind of what it is, right? She isn't sneaked like the formal, proper way, and snuck is the modern way.

Speaker 1 We'll never know and there's no way for us to possibly ever find out through one quick search. So it's never going to...
So she's clearly a linguist even with a 650 or whatever on the SAT.

Speaker 3 Brilliant. Yeah.
Yeah. She's kind of brilliant.

Speaker 1 Sneakedly so, in fact.

Speaker 3 Well done.

Speaker 3 My professors strongly encouraged me to go on to grad school, and it will always be a regret of mine that I didn't, choosing to stay in what I saw as a promising job in local government.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm sorry you feel this regret about grad school, but man, this is a huge accomplishment.

Speaker 3 Yeah, she should be incredibly proud of herself. It's just crazy to think about going from the RV to graduating with all these.
It's wild. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 I'm now 39 years old, happily married, and building a small design business.

Speaker 3 My parents are now 76 and 77, live about 45 minutes away, still in that old RV, and are two of the most frustrating, codependent, self-centered, emotionally immature, stunted people I have ever met.

Speaker 3 Wow. They have very little money and live off of Social Security having spent all of their savings while they were off being missionaries.

Speaker 3 My dad has congestive heart failure and Parkinson's, while my mom has myasthenia gravis, a chronic autoimmune neuromuscular disease.

Speaker 3 They also still own that mountain land, which is their sole focus in life. They've isolated themselves from the world for so long that they have nothing else to be interested in.

Speaker 3 They've allegedly been trying to sell it to get the money out of it for decades.

Speaker 3 Two years ago, I offered to step in and help and, while working with a realtor, found a buyer and got it under contract with my parents panicking every step of the way. Of course.

Speaker 3 The buyer ended up not having all of the pieces fall into place on their end and asked for an extension of the contract. My parents saw that as God's sign that they shouldn't sell and backed out.

Speaker 3 It was the perfect storm.

Speaker 1 Can you hear my eyes rolling through the internet?

Speaker 1 Just go on.

Speaker 3 I told them I was done trying to help, and they've been working along at things on their own ever since. Right.

Speaker 1 Doing nothing. That's what that means.

Speaker 3 I was so infuriated for so long about that. Now I'm constantly worrying about how their lifelong bad decisions are going to impact me and by extension, my husband.

Speaker 3 I absolutely will not have them live with us when they are too old and ill to care for themselves and their RV because spending too much time with them is extremely bad for my mental health.

Speaker 1 I'm glad you realized that.

Speaker 3 But while my husband and I are doing well financially, we aren't wealthy. So paying for expensive care homes won't be an option.

Speaker 3 But then I also struggle with major guilt, and I know it will be very difficult to tell them that we aren't going to invite them to live with us, though it helps to get a little angry over the fact that my dad, in particular, has been pretty clear over the years that he considers me an insurance policy for them.

Speaker 1 Ridiculous.

Speaker 3 Meanwhile, my husband has commented about how clear it is how little they actually know about me as a person.

Speaker 3 Do I wade back in and try to sell the land again, being more firm about making it happen this time? Are there realtors out there who specialize in getting top dollar for unusual properties?

Speaker 3 Do I continue to stay at arm's length and hope that they don't show up on our doorstep one day because they've been evicted or the RV has fallen apart?

Speaker 3 Any other approaches to this whole mess that I haven't thought of? Signed, hoping to say no, if my parents think it's their say-so,

Speaker 3 to move into our place so they don't have to live in the Winnebago.

Speaker 1 Oh man, I think I just have to start with this.

Speaker 3 She

Speaker 1 this is this is fascinating, but man, I totally get why this childhood makes you angry. I get why this looming problem makes you even angrier.

Speaker 3 Yeah, treating your kids like an insurance policy.

Speaker 1 That just makes me so angry to hear.

Speaker 3 But they're like, especially if you're not doing a few basic things to make it easier for your kids to take care of you. Right.

Speaker 3 Like, you could sell your land, you could financially manage yourself, but they're just like expecting that one day when things become untenable, they're just going to move in. 100%.

Speaker 1 Not cool. It'd be different if it was like, all right.
Here's all the accounts. Here's our care plan.
Here's our insurance. You're our other insurance policy.

Speaker 1 When we, our brains don't function, so I'm showing you where everything is.

Speaker 1 They're just like, nah, we're just going to be a giant mess and then it's just going to be your problem or we'll die on your front lawn. Not fair.
Difficult. But again, I understand the guilt.

Speaker 1 There's a real conflict here. As frustrating as your parents are, they're your parents.

Speaker 1 So on the one hand, you're probably going, guys, you made your bed, your tiny RV standard full-size bed with a self-appointed missionary certificate printed above it. And now you got to sleep in it.

Speaker 1 And I tried to tell you, you didn't want that, but you're making me your safety net. On the other hand, it's like, man, you guys are so hopeless.
How do I not step in and save you from yourselves?

Speaker 1 Right. It's a really tough place to be.
So should you try and sell the land again? Maybe. It sounds like selling the land would be in everybody's best interest.

Speaker 1 It could mean that you won't have to take them in or support them yourselves down the line. That would be huge.
But I have a couple caveats.

Speaker 1 First, if you do it, I think you got to do it with clear expectations and a solid plan. If this is me, I'm going full Sheriff Jordan mode.
Here's how this is going to go. Here are the terms.

Speaker 1 Let's get this in writing. We all agree we're moving toward a sale.
You can't back out. You can't sabotage the sale along the way because somebody hit a speed bump and now you decided it's God's will.

Speaker 1 You got to tear the whole thing up.

Speaker 1 You take the proceeds, you put them in a high-yield savings account, a brokerage account, whatever, maybe even one that you control, frankly, if you're comfortable with that.

Speaker 1 So they don't spend it all again on a new RV and with no savings or donate it to a missionary organization or something. And then you're back where you started.

Speaker 1 And then you tell them, hey, if you don't honor this agreement, I will not be stepping in to help you again.

Speaker 1 And you're going to have to figure out your own money and your own retirement plan on your own, whatever those terms look like for you.

Speaker 1 You don't need to be cold about it, but I think you should be clear about it.

Speaker 1 And yes, there are definitely realtors out there, or if you're from Michigan, realtors out there who specialize in rural land, mineral rights, heavy properties, who know the buyers for assets like this.

Speaker 1 I would, I guess, look at land and ranch specialists, brokers who handle off-grid or mountain parcels.

Speaker 1 You want somebody who actually understands how to value and sell land like this, not some dude named Joaquin who sells condos to bumble engineers in Austin or whatever.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you want someone with cowboy boots doing the sale, for sure.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Someone with dust in his stash and an Excel spreadsheet with the current market price of gypsum.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Gypsum. Yeah.
Just pick the realtor who looks like an extra on Yellowstone and you should be fine. You know, Sam Elliott with a bus stop ad.

Speaker 3 That's the general vibe you want.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 If he's not armed when he shows up to the first meeting,

Speaker 3 fire him immediately. Yeah.
You can't can't bring this job to Compass. Sorry.
That's right.

Speaker 3 Now, about how to handle your parents from here on out, it sounds like you have some good reasons for keeping your distance. I understand that your parents bring up a lot for you.

Speaker 3 So I really do get the impulse to just stay away and pray that they don't knock on your door one day like, hey, you know, where should the tow truck put the broke down RV? Where's the guest room?

Speaker 3 And, you know, do you have $8,000 so we can pay off the back taxes? It's stressful. I get it.
But as we all know, you know, hope is not a strategy. So I'm with Jordan here.

Speaker 3 Your best bet is probably to try to help them sell this land.

Speaker 3 And maybe you're more equipped to do that now, because now you know how they tend to operate and you know what you need to do to protect yourself and also protect them.

Speaker 3 So yeah, a little short-term pain, but hopefully long-term peace of mind. And maybe part of that conversation is saying to your parents, guys, we need to start planning for the future.

Speaker 3 We are not in a position to support you. We can't afford a nursing home.
We can't take you in. But the good news is that probably will not even be necessary if we plan ahead starting now.

Speaker 3 So So great job buying up this land years ago. That was super smart of you, mom and dad.
And now let's make the most of it. And yes, I will help lead the process.

Speaker 3 If you can use this as an opportunity to set expectations and draw this line early, maybe that'll ensure that they play ball with you on selling this land the second time around because they'll understand that it really is their only option for being secure.

Speaker 1 And if they don't understand, throw them down the mine shaft.

Speaker 3 That would officially make this a Cohen Brothers movie.

Speaker 1 Yes, I'm just pushing it over the finish line. Also, while while we're on the topic of assets, I would chat with an estate planning attorney.

Speaker 1 Make sure your parents have all their paperwork buttoned up, that they have a will, a trust, a beneficiary listed, which should be you. All of that.

Speaker 1 I don't know about you, Gabe, but something tells me they might be a little loosey-goosey about that stuff.

Speaker 3 No, seriously, the last thing you want is for one or both of your parents to pass away one day. Let's say that you don't manage to sell the land and then it goes into probate.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Which I hear is a massive headache and so avoidable.

Speaker 1 Definitely. Or you do sell the land and the money is sitting in an account somewhere, but there's no will and there's no beneficiary listed and then the account gets frozen and that goes into probate.

Speaker 1 No bueno. A lawyer can also advise on things like guardianship, power of attorney, Medicaid qualification, which they might need if they have no savings and no place to go when they're older.

Speaker 1 Handling debt, which, you know, you might discover some of that. I know you don't want to get too involved and I understand why.
I totally get why you want to stay away and I hope it all works out.

Speaker 1 But there's also a way to sidestep a ton more stress in the future and capitalize on the two huge gifts that you do have, this land and time.

Speaker 1 But while you do that, make sure you're taking good care of yourself. Work closely with your husband.
Let him support you through this.

Speaker 1 Talk to other people who are dealing with similar stuff with their parents. Keep unpacking this anger you feel, this guilt.
It's very old. There's a lot underneath it.

Speaker 1 I know it would be healthy for you to keep processing it. Sending you and your husband a big hug, holding good thoughts for your parents, wishing you all the best.

Speaker 1 Gabe, you know what's a great use of that gypsum windfall? The fine products and services that support this here show. Yee-haw! We'll be right back in two shakes of a lamb's tail.

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Speaker 3 Have a great day.

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Speaker 1 Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Speaker 1 All right. Time for the recommendation of the week.

Speaker 6 I am addicted to Litfella.

Speaker 1 So my recommendation, this is a lot of people really loved my hand towels in the bathroom thing. And they were like, oh, we need more like this.

Speaker 1 Cause that's like 10, 20 bucks that goes a long way to making it look like you're some kind of baller with blue aristocratic blood. So here's another one for you.

Speaker 1 If you have a gym outside or you got your garage, you work out in there, you got a studio like me, get a mini fridge or a regular fridge, whatever.

Speaker 1 Great for summer, especially if you're outside a lot.

Speaker 1 And you take some of those same towels you bought for the bathroom, those little hand towels, you get a bunch of those towels, you get them wet, but you don't just put them in regular water.

Speaker 1 You take a little bit of maybe peppermint essential oil or something like that, and you drip it in the water and you swish it around.

Speaker 1 Then you soak all these towels in there, roll them up and put them in the fridge. And they'll stay wet, especially if it's a mini fridge, you get like a little box to put them in, something like that.

Speaker 1 So then you're outside, you're sweating, you're in your garage, you're sweating, you're working on something.

Speaker 1 And instead of just wiping off with a dry towel or some paper towel or even that wet towel that's sort of like hot, but still wet, you get this icy, nice, cool, peppermint-smelling towel and you just put that on the back of your neck, on your armpits, your back, whatever, your forehead.

Speaker 1 It is freaking glorious. It is amazing.
And if you have guests and they're like, oh, it sure is hot out here, you just hand them one of these things. It's like being in first class on an airplane.

Speaker 1 You get that little, that steamy towel. It's the opposite, right?

Speaker 3 It just makes you feel so refreshed and cool it's absolutely amazing obviously i am fully on board with this one but i am biting my tongue so hard that you are pitching an essential oils related recommendation of the week with zero irony not even nodding to the fact that you've mocked me for years the oils don't do anything they're not going to cure your kids you know adhd all right i'm just saying it smells good never in a million years did what i pitch that i never said that i'm just laughing at the fact that you've this is the this is such a gabe move and i just love that you've come around to the cold towels and the essential oils.

Speaker 3 I feel like hot yoga had something to do with that. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 1 I'm just saying

Speaker 3 they have that little refrigerator outside the studio.

Speaker 1 It might align your chakras, but that part I'm unsure. It will make you feel refreshed and cooler, though.
That I can guarantee.

Speaker 3 It's an amenity that you really only expect at a gym. That's right.
So to create it at home is pretty great. That's right.

Speaker 1 Your guests will be blown away. They'll be like, man, you saved by buying these towels in bulk, clearly.

Speaker 1 Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for the show I mentioned it earlier, the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

Speaker 1 Come over there and complain endlessly about our episodes and all of the advice we give on Feedback Friday. Or say something nice for a change.
Okay, Gabe, what's next?

Speaker 3 Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm almost 30, and for the last three years, I've been in a relationship with a guy.
Over the past few months, as I planned my birthday, the anxiety of turning 30 really hit me.

Speaker 3 I know logically that life doesn't stop at 30, but I feel uneasy.

Speaker 1 How do you think we feel?

Speaker 3 Continue. Around that time, I started searching for a flat for us to buy.
I have more savings, and financially, I'm in a better position.

Speaker 3 Despite this, I wanted to make us a unit and share everything I have with him. But every time I showed him an apartment, he found an excuse not to like it.

Speaker 3 He never outright said that he didn't want to live with me, even when I asked, but he subtly disagreed with every option. Eventually, I stopped looking.
Deep down, I think I knew something was off.

Speaker 3 But he's not a decision maker, and I'm a strong, articulate person.

Speaker 3 For the past year, I've been asking when he would propose and sending him Instagram reels and jokes about married life, stuff like that.

Speaker 1 That's hilarious. Here's a dank meme about a bride melting down at Kmart.
So, when are you going to propose?

Speaker 3 I knew if I pushed too hard, he would avoid the question. Yeah.
He's quiet and I'm loud and direct. I found a way to live with that.
But then, last week, I finally asked him directly.

Speaker 3 He tried to dodge the question, but I told him to come back from a shower with an answer.

Speaker 1 Wait, why is that funny?

Speaker 3 I don't know. I guess I'm...
Do you think he was like, I don't know, know, I don't know how to answer this. I'm just going to go shower.

Speaker 3 And she was like, fine, but don't come back from the shower without an answer.

Speaker 3 Or was he like, I don't know. And she was like, go take a shower.
It'll come to you in the shower.

Speaker 1 Legend has it. That dude is still showering.

Speaker 3 It's been a few weeks since she wrote in as well. So

Speaker 1 the water bill is $3,000.

Speaker 3 And he says, there's some pruny unmarried fingers right there. So he came back from the shower, that is.

Speaker 3 And for the first time, he said something different that he doesn't feel sure about marrying me. When I pushed further, he said he didn't feel our relationship was good.

Speaker 3 He wasn't happy with our intimacy. And on top of everything, he doesn't even want kids.

Speaker 1 Oh, man. Can you imagine hearing all that at once? Hey, I don't like our relationship.
The sex isn't good. And I don't even want kids.

Speaker 3 Yikes. That's a lot to take in.
Oof. This shocked me.
Because I'm outspoken. I always said when something was bothering me.

Speaker 3 I was upfront about what I need and want in a relationship, and I was always asking him to be open with me.

Speaker 3 He did voice some of his fears in the relationship along the way, but I never in a million years would have guessed that he felt our relationship was a bad one.

Speaker 3 I believed we were mostly on the same page.

Speaker 1 So clearly, he was holding back a lot. Yeah.
Man, I wonder if he was being dishonest or if he was just afraid to hurt or disappoint you, because that's kind of two different things, right?

Speaker 3 That night, I couldn't sleep in the same bed. Hours later, he asked me to come back, but only after I couldn't stop crying.
By the morning, nothing had changed.

Speaker 3 When we talked again, he stood by everything he had had said. In that moment, I knew this was never going to be what I wanted.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 So I packed my things, took my dog, and left to my only safe place, my parents. Now I'm drowning in shame, fear, anger, and confusion.
I keep replying everything in my head, wondering, was I stupid?

Speaker 3 But I know I made the right call. I know that because even though he said he loved me when I left, he hasn't reached out, not even a text.

Speaker 3 He hasn't asked about me or the dog, which he cared for and asked to call ours. And yet, I'm here turning 30 without a home, without a fiancé, crying myself to sleep in my parents' flat.

Speaker 3 I have a job I like, friends, family, everything I should need. But this is so hurtful because he touched all of those important aspects of my life.
Even my parents are mourning the relationship.

Speaker 3 In a way, they too are breaking up with him. And maybe the scariest part? I still want love.
I still want a relationship. And as a woman, the biological clock is ticking.

Speaker 3 But I only want kids if I'm in a strong and trusting relationship. How do I restart my life? How do I find love again? How do I trust that I can build something better next time?

Speaker 3 Signed, tending to my heart and charting a new start when everything is falling apart.

Speaker 1 Nice symmetry here, Gabe. We kicked off with a breakup.
We're ending with a breakup.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you notice that? The ye old circle of dudes. Indeed.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, these are all very good questions and ones we all face at one point or another.

Speaker 1 Actually, I think we're lucky to face these questions because they're profound ones, but they're only possible when things break down. And of course, that's painful.

Speaker 1 So I'm very sorry that you're hurting. All breakups are, of course, hard.

Speaker 1 They are just extra hard when you discover that you and your partner were on radically different pages, that there were huge things going unsaid in the relationship.

Speaker 1 I'm sure there are lots of angles to your dynamic together, but I'll just say that it sucks to find out that your partner didn't feel comfortable or even brave enough to say how he really felt.

Speaker 1 The good news is... This had to come out at some point, and I'm glad it finally did because the relationship obviously wasn't right.

Speaker 1 And I can already hear that you're looking back and connecting some dots that were hard to connect in the moment.

Speaker 1 It takes great courage to look at those things squarely in the eye when you still love somebody and say, all right, we need to go our separate ways.

Speaker 1 So the pain you're feeling right now, it's the price of admission for a very necessary transformation.

Speaker 1 So the first thing I want to say is your shame, your fear, your anger, this confusion, they're all totally valid. They're very common after a breakup.

Speaker 1 There's some very important stuff for you to explore in those feelings. For example, you might feel some embarrassment about discounting certain signs earlier.

Speaker 1 And that's a great thing for you to look at, even if your boyfriend was in the wrong. But this thought you keep replaying, was I stupid? I'm not sure that one's very helpful.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure it's even appropriate. Did you ignore your intuition that something was off in this relationship? Did you discount certain data points because they were sad or painful or inconvenient?

Speaker 1 Maybe. Humans do that all the time.
That doesn't make you stupid. It makes you a person who has something to learn about herself, about other people, about how she functions in a relationship.

Speaker 1 And that's all you can really expect of yourself now, the willingness to reflect on all this and grow, which you're doing by parting ways, studying the relationship, finding your own path.

Speaker 1 You're already restarting your life. This dark night of the soul, this is where it begins.

Speaker 1 You have to move through this period of extreme grief, a lot of sadness, a ton of uncertainty in order to begin again.

Speaker 1 And a lot of your job is just sitting with the hurt, tolerating the uncertainty, allowing yourself to be sad, mourning the end of this relationship, and maybe more than the relationship, all the hopes that you had for it.

Speaker 1 And taking care of yourself, attending to these feelings, processing the grief, re-engaging with your close relationships, enjoying this time with your parents, as strange as it might be, moving your body as much as possible, getting reacquainted with who you are outside of the relationship, which by the way, one of the big upsides of going through a breakup.

Speaker 1 Like I said, a breakup is a crisis that always precipitates a breakthrough. But that breakthrough, it's going to come in stages and it has its own timeline.
So you have to be patient.

Speaker 1 You got to remind yourself not to fast forward through these difficult feelings just because you want to move on. If anything, I'd say slow down, really feel them, dissect them, learn from them.

Speaker 1 That's also part of your job right now.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and that's also a big part of the healing. But I do hear you.
I understand that you want to find love again. But yeah, I think this is also a fascinating question to ask on the heels of...

Speaker 3 this incredibly intense breakup. I would slow down there a little bit too.
I mean, you just ended things.

Speaker 3 So allowing yourself this time to learn and heal, that's not just unavoidable, it's also productive.

Speaker 3 If finding love is really what you want, then the lessons of this relationship are probably going to be key.

Speaker 3 So I would definitely take this time to explore the patterns and the dynamics that Jordan just talked about and figure out how they showed up with your boyfriend.

Speaker 3 I'm especially interested in this piece of like, I noticed some data points and we kind of talked about some of his hesitation, but for example, why you overlooked or cramped around certain things with your boyfriend, why you were so outspoken for the most part, and then meanwhile he struggled to tell you how he was really feeling, and what it was like to be leading and pushing the relationship in so many ways, like buying the flat when he was kind of dragging his feet, what your true needs and values are, which it sounds like top of the list for future relationships is communication, but also stability, reciprocity, shared goals, shared values.

Speaker 3 You know, what qualities do you really need in a partner? And I'm also interested in how turning 30 informed all of this. You mentioned it a couple times.

Speaker 3 It sounds like like you feel some pressure to have a child soon, and that might have made you push for things with this guy that weren't entirely right.

Speaker 3 It might have blinded you to some important signals.

Speaker 3 It's also possible that you just have some ideas about turning 30 in general that maybe didn't have to do with him or a relationship, but those might also be worth looking at.

Speaker 3 There's so much to explore here, but the outcome of this process is going to be some really great wisdom. And that's how you can trust that you're going to build something better next time.

Speaker 3 It's so similar to our friend in question one, right? There is kind of a post-mortem that needs to happen after a relationship.

Speaker 3 You got to own your piece of it, figure out how you showed up and what qualities of yours got brought to the surface. And then you get to go, okay, I'm not going to do that next time.

Speaker 3 And I want to go work on that quality. That is the one big upside from having a relationship fall apart.

Speaker 1 Agreed. But I do think we need to talk about turning 30 for a moment.
I understand why that milestone is so big for people, especially for women. The biological clock thing is real.

Speaker 1 You obviously need to factor it in. It's not completely arbitrary.
But in another way, it is arbitrary. Turning 30, there are so many thoughts and feelings wrapped up in it.

Speaker 1 Most of them are kind of flimsy or limited at best. Also, I can tell you firsthand, turning 30, pretty awesome.

Speaker 1 I honestly didn't feel like my personality or my life really began in a real way until my 30s. I remember thinking people are going to take me seriously when I turn 30.
I'm well into my 40s.

Speaker 1 And by the way, it doesn't happen at 30. I'm still waiting for people to take me seriously.

Speaker 1 But I'm telling you, in my 40s, life just keeps getting better and better. Again, I'm a man.
I'm not you. Our experiences are going to be different.
But talk to any person in their 30s and 40s.

Speaker 1 These stages bring new challenges. Of course, every life phase does, but they bring so many joys.
I can't even name them all.

Speaker 1 A stronger sense of self, more confidence, more clarity, which you're already seeing, more skills, more knowledge, more opportunities, a heightened awareness of time. what makes life meaningful.

Speaker 1 I could go on and on, but I don't have that much time. I'm 45.

Speaker 1 We lose certain things. Then's the rules.
We gain certain things as well. And we can control the things we gain to a large degree by doing the kind of work that we're talking about.

Speaker 1 So I know it's kind of trite, but the best thing you can do right now is embrace this period as much as you can. Really lean into it.
You are hurting. That makes sense.

Speaker 1 I promise you're not going to feel the same way in a week or two weeks or in a month. The recovery might actually shock you.

Speaker 1 Also, all these things you're mourning, your own home, a fiancé, the future, allow yourself to grieve them, but also know that they were not yours. They're out there waiting if you want them.

Speaker 1 But one of those concepts that's falling away is the fantasy that they were yours with this guy.

Speaker 3 You know, I wonder if that's where some of the shame she talked about is coming from. For sure.

Speaker 3 Realizing that she was hoping for something that didn't quite make sense with this guy and wanting something so badly with somebody who didn't really want them to and then pushing so hard for them when she was getting those signs that he might not have been on the same page.

Speaker 3 And I get it. That embarrassment might be part of her learning right now because it's like, oh, yeah, I was a little bit, I had blinders on.

Speaker 3 You know, I didn't want to look at these things or I was overly attached to some outcomes that were not quite right and I wasn't willing to see it or whatever it was. That's okay.

Speaker 3 I think that shame is kind of a fellow traveler of becoming mature, you know, of being in contact with reality.

Speaker 1 Good point. I have a theory that if we're not always a little embarrassed by ourselves, we're probably not really growing.
That's also the rationalization I use to

Speaker 3 humiliated constantly.

Speaker 1 Now that I think about it, I also wonder if part of her shame is how this outspoken quality she mentioned showed up in the relationship.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's interesting. She mentioned that several times in her letter, so I think it's important.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, we don't know her. Maybe she's super obnoxious, but I don't get that.
I don't get that vibe.

Speaker 1 She's very strong, she's articulate, she's always said when something bothers her, that's awesome. She was upfront about what she needed in the relationship.
I wish most people would do that.

Speaker 3 And I think it must be meaningful that he was the total opposite.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that alone is interesting, just how different they were in that department. I think somewhere in there is a key to their dynamic.

Speaker 1 But what I'm getting at is, is she maybe a little embarrassed about being so passionate, so ambitious about their plans when he secretly felt differently?

Speaker 1 And actually, is this outspoken quality of hers, which in so many ways is his superpower, but in this relationship, was it possibly a way for her to do a lot of the work for him?

Speaker 1 Like, if she was always driving, he didn't have to, which also meant that he didn't have to be totally honest.

Speaker 3 Yep, I could see that. And did it maybe even crowd out some of his true feelings? Because her vision and her execution were so powerful.
There's so much exuberance there.

Speaker 1 Exactly. I'm not blaming her, to be clear.
With another partner, I mean, I actually, personally, I would find those qualities extremely attractive, I think.

Speaker 1 With another partner, it could be incredibly productive and inspiring.

Speaker 1 But with this particular guy and with what she wanted from him, or perhaps what she didn't want to acknowledge about him, was it also a way to paper over some stuff, sidestep some things?

Speaker 3 Yeah, those are great questions. Something else she can explore during this period.

Speaker 1 Anyway, look, I know this is hard. I'm genuinely excited for you.
I'd love to hear from you in three, four, six months. Write us an email.
Let us know how things are going.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't be surprised if you're in a very different place with a very different lens on all this and you're already starting to see some new pieces come together. That's really the beauty of life.

Speaker 1 That's how it works. And one last thing, something I've learned over and over, but especially when I restarted this show several years ago, you're not starting over.
You are starting forward.

Speaker 1 This relationship was not a waste. It was essential.

Speaker 1 It's bringing up these great questions and the answers are going to give you a ton of wisdom to bring to that strong and trusting relationship that you want and that you deserve.

Speaker 1 So we're sending you a big hug. You got this.
Gabe, I do not envy people on the dating market right now. Probably shouldn't have said that because that's you.
But anyway.

Speaker 3 Fair enough. Go on there.

Speaker 1 Go back and check out the Atusa Abrahamian episode of Yankee.

Speaker 3 That's it.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to tap it out.

Speaker 3 Oh man.

Speaker 1 The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

Speaker 1 I'm teaching you how to do the same thing, build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free.
It is not gross. There are no tricks.

Speaker 1 I don't need your credit card number. It is not schmoozy.
And you can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. These drills are designed to take just a few minutes a day.

Speaker 1 This is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks.
And if need be, push your aging parents down the shaft. But build relationships before you need them.

Speaker 1 That's what I'm trying to say. Build relationships before you need them.
You can find the course at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts over at jordanharbinger.com.

Speaker 1 Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show. Where are they? They're at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.
I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

Speaker 1 I say my name a lot in these episodes, don't I? Or just hit me on LinkedIn. I'm Jordan Harbinger over there.
You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

Speaker 1 This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sedlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Speaker 1 Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.
And remember, we rise by lifting others.

Speaker 1 Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

Speaker 1 In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on this show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 Join us as Mustafa Suleiman, Microsoft AI CEO, discusses the pivotal role of artificial intelligence in shaping the future, from job automation to national security.

Speaker 6 We are a technological species. From the beginning of time, we have been manipulating the environment to reduce our suffering.
And that is the purpose of a tool. But a tool has always been inanimate.

Speaker 6 Whereas now, I think the profound shift that we're going through is that we're sort of giving rise to these new phenomena that I hesitate to call a tool because it has these amazing properties to be able to create and produce and invent way beyond and disconnected to what we've actually directed it to do.

Speaker 6 But now we've really crossed this moment, this threshold where now computers can increasingly talk our language and that is just mind-blowing people are still not fully absorbing how completely nuts that is we want ais to be able to solve our big problems in the world you know we want it to help us tackle climate change and improve drugs and improve health care and give us self-driving cars and we want to solve these massive problems that we have in the world of trying to feed 8 billion people and growing and so on, right?

Speaker 6 So that's going to change what it means to be human. It's going to change society in a very fundamental way.

Speaker 3 It will change work and so on.

Speaker 6 It's been such a privilege to be creating and making and building at a time like this.

Speaker 6 Almost 15 years in the field now thinking about the consequences of AI and trying to build it so that it delivers on the upsides and it's just a surreal time to be alive.

Speaker 1 To explore the critical ethical, societal and geopolitical challenges AI poses in the 21st century and what we can do to harness its power responsibly on episode 972 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Speaker 1 This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation?

Speaker 1 Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling new age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation.

Speaker 1 It's called the Conspirituality Podcast.

Speaker 1 The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

Speaker 1 An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening.

Speaker 1 It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that.

Speaker 1 From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics.

Speaker 1 Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.

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