1209: Michael Israetel | The Future Belongs to the Medically Enhanced

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This AI drug revolution is just starting to create candidate drugs today that are starting to enter animal trials today, which means that in 2027, when they start to enter human trials, you're going to get instant blockbuster drugs that are like 10 times more beneficial than any drug we've ever made, with 10 times fewer side effects.

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Today, we're back once again with Dr.

Mike Isratel.

This was massively popular last time.

We're kicking things off today with GLP-1 drugs, what they are, why people take them, the downsides that don't get enough attention, and why some folks are recommending drugs like terzepatide, regardless of your situation.

Almost regardless, I should say.

Of course, there's always exceptions.

We'll also dig into the use and abuse of anabolic steroids.

What happens if you start young?

How much lasting damage does it actually do to your brain?

We'll unpack what's myth, what's real, and how things like roid rage, social pressure, and changes in emotional connection actually play out in real life.

And since no episode is complete without at least one slightly unhinged hypothetical, we'll find out what would happen if you just did lines of cocaine instead of cardio.

Obviously had to ask for a friend.

It spikes your heart rate, right?

What's the difference?

Besides, you know, living past 30.

Along the way, we'll talk about why being lean often matters more than chasing endless hours in the gym and bodybuilding, why being in good shape is about a lot more than looks, and what's happening when you plateau.

And of course, why you actually look better after you stop training for a week and eat whatever the heck you want.

I call it the Cheeto diet.

You're welcome.

All that and more coming up on the Jordan Harbinger Show here with Dr.

Mike Isratel.

All right, here we go.

You're on fire lately, man.

There's a lot of pushback on some of your advice these days.

I know that's new for you.

Social media is usually such a positive, supportive space.

Warm and welcoming place.

So I'm curious, you recommended a drug called Terzepatide.

Am I getting that right?

Can you speak to that a little bit?

Because I think I'd love to just dive right into...

some of these controversial GLP-1 things.

One, I don't even think most people know how these work.

So if you can explain in brief why that is and why you think this is good for you, we can piss off people in the first five minutes of the show.

It's always a win.

Great.

Yeah, Terzepatide is a drug that is fourth generation incretin mimetic.

And that's a technical term for what it is because it acts on two hormonal pathways.

One is the GLP-1 and the other is GIP.

And both are incretin hormones, which are gut hormones that essentially communicate something between what's in your stomach and how that should be processed, your intestines and the rest of your body, especially your brain, and the big metabolic coordinators, these pathways.

And so

the third generation was samaglatide and the aka Ozempic brand name.

And so the fourth generation is one newer, and that's trazepatide.

And so semaglatide just has the GLP-1 agonism.

So it basically just makes it seem like there's way more GLP-1 hormonal activity in in your body than there would typically be.

And then Trezepatide is GLP-1 and also GIP.

And so that actually gives it more benefits.

So Trezepatide is a drug that works to promote weight loss via one primary mechanism, and that is called the anorectic effect.

It just makes you less hungry and it makes you fuller for longer.

And so it makes you less interested in food.

And the combination of GLP and GIP activity actually give trizepatide a deeper psychological impact.

When you are taking semaglatide, just GLP,

your hunger absolutely falls, but your cravings can still be substantially high.

Like your desire for food is like, oh man, that would be tasty, even though you're not physiologically hungry.

If someone gave you a bunch of chicken, breast, and rice, you're like, meh.

But if someone gave, oh, look at this donut, you would be like, ooh.

But with trazepatide, even the doughnut doesn't seem as illustrious as it once was the physiological hunger is just as low but the psychological cravings seem to be like a qualitative leap ahead as far as lowered you said physical hunger is just as low do you mean physical hunger is just as high but the psychological hunger is lower oh just as low i mean it has just as much of a lowering of physical hunger as samaglatide does i see but it also has a lowering of cravings as well that seems to be a little bit more deep than samaglatide gives you okay which can be really really because now not only, so if you eat your meals, what you can do better with Trezepatide is if you go out to eat and there's some tasty food, you can even better have just a little bit of it and just be like, ah, that's good, I'm done.

Instead of having that super, super craving thing where you might be physiologically full, but you just want to eat more tasty treats.

That definitely takes a hit on semaglotide as well, but Trezepatide hits it even harder.

And the real benefits of Trezepatide for people who want to lose weight and improve their health, the major benefits come from that weight loss-mediated effect because the absolute number one reason in the modern world why people gain excess body weight is because food tastes really good and people like really tasty food.

That's the literally like almost all of the obesity epidemic just described in one causal factor.

It used to be very fashionable to say that obesity was complex.

That is absolutely true.

But complexity doesn't necessarily mean that you can't essentially boil it down to one major factor.

For example, how rockets work is profoundly complex.

But if you increase the thrust coming out of the bottom of the rocket and the rocket doesn't break into pieces, the rocket goes faster and can carry more payload.

So at the end of the day, the anorectic effect of these drugs is the primary modulator by which they help people because you don't want to eat as much, you eat less, you lose a bunch of weight, and a ton of health variables improve.

However, these drugs, samaglopide for sure, but especially trazepatide, have tons of what are called non-weight-mediated health benefits.

Okay, that's what I was going to ask about.

Because like, what if I'm already, I'm already in good shape?

Yes, I love a little fried calamari, but like, I don't need a drug to get me off of that.

Totally, totally.

So trazepatide has so many non-weight-mediated health benefits, it would be difficult to summarize all of them, but I can give you a few insights.

One is it lowers blood pressure.

Another one is it improves your glycemic control.

It improves your blood sugar, even if there's no weight change whatsoever.

Another one is it reduces neuroinflammation, which means it reduces the inflammation your brain experiences, which means that it probably is a brain health boosting drug.

And that's a humongous a deal.

Another one is that it reduces the amount of addiction-like effects across the board.

So people on samaglatide for sure and even more on trzepatide, see, like just right randomly will quit smoking.

People are like, hey, do you want to drink?

And they have a few drinks and they're like, I don't know, I just kind of don't want to drink anymore.

So addictive behaviors go down and that's a really big deal.

Another one is they improve your cholesterol numbers substantially and they improve endothelial function.

What's that?

So, like, basically, like the insides of your arteries and stuff.

Oh, right.

I knew I'd heard that word before.

If you have a lot of inflammation in there, it's really bad.

So, they also radically reduce overall systemic inflammation, which is probably one of the number one causes of aging and disease.

And there are loads and loads of other benefits that these drugs have.

And so, just those benefits I listed by themselves mean that these drugs are functionally health enhancers.

Now, they're not a panacea because they don't cure everything, but my contention is this.

The average person would be healthier taking trazepatide than not taking trazepatide.

And I mean that as a statement that integrates trazepatide's negatives and downsides and risks into that statement.

So it's kind of like if you had broken your leg, and you were at a really shitty hospital and they were doing like an okay job training you, but things were not going well.

Would you be better off having an ambulance drive you to a much better hospital?

And the downsides of that is it costs more money.

The ambulance could get into a car accident and you could fucking die on the way over.

Even all of that integrated in, it's probably still a better idea to drive to that much better hospital to get the most elite standard of care in this example.

And just the same, people who are in pretty good health without trazepatide could probably be in better health with trazepatide.

It is not something, the decision you should come to yourself.

You actually can't get trazepatide yourself.

You have to get it through a doctor's prescription, but it's something to talk to your doctor about and say, hey, you know, I've heard trizepatide has a lot of non-weight mediated health benefits.

Is that something that could be appealing?

Your doctor might be open-minded.

They might look into it and be like, actually, yeah, it has big appetite reduction effects.

So let's say if we start you off a very, very low dose, that actually helps you save money because it's dose-dependent, how much you pay.

And then all of a sudden, you might be overall significantly healthier.

And so to me, there's a lot of philosophical stuff that people always like to get into about this, a lot of myths people have in the philosophical realm.

And I can talk about that until I'm blue in the face.

An example really quick is people say, why would I take a drug if there's nothing wrong with me?

And that hinges on a really, really, really incorrect assumption that people make about human health.

I could get into if you'd like, but.

Yes, please do.

So the assumption that humans make is that our bodies were made in some kind of profoundly serendipitous way and are essentially, if the forces of modern civilization do not act on them, like junk food and television and cigarettes, that they are somehow kind of this noble savage myth

of flawlessly integrated with nature.

You know, Gaia with her big titties and Pandora with the fucking blue people on it from Avatar.

Everything's all all right in nature.

And the thing is, that's actually just wrong.

It's wrong in a major way.

It has a grain of truth to it, which is our bodies are phenomenally complex, phenomenally integrated machines.

And you just don't go in there busting shit down unless you know what the hell's going on or unless you know what effect you're going to have.

But because our bodies are not perfectly integrated machines and because we are always and everywhere hurtling towards aging and death, it is hypothetically possible that external substances can enhance your body to be better than nature allowed it to be.

We do this in every other possible measured respect.

People brush their teeth.

Why do people brush their teeth?

Because I'm not going to, well, so far, I'm not going to die at 29 where my teeth have not rotted out of my face.

I'm going to live a little bit longer than that.

So far, so good.

And I'd like to keep these for at least a few more years.

Yeah.

And so toothbrushes, antibiotics, vaccines, air conditioning, modern hospitals, a complement of nutritious foods and vitamins and minerals is something that humans just typically or almost never are exposed to in a natural environment.

It makes us better off.

And so for a long time, it was the standard that drugs had worse side effects than main effects unless there was something really, really wrong with you.

And then it was worth it.

So someone could be like, hey, do you want to cut off one of your toes?

You'd be like, what the fuck?

Hell no.

And then they were like, hey, we have one of your children trapped.

We will let go of your child forever and we'll let you go only if you cut off one of your toes.

Different calculation.

So if you have a huge, huge something to lose.

then you would take it.

The ultimate example of this is chemo for cancer.

They fuck you up in more ways than people can count.

They save your ass if you have cancer.

You don't just take chemo drugs regularly.

That would be your gigantic mistake.

But as biotech improves, and this is happening exponentially faster, and in the next several years is about to happen at a much, much faster rate with AI being involved in drug development, the reality is that at some point, probably about five or 10 years ago, some drugs came out that were like, oh, you know, if you're healthy, they probably don't hurt you on net balance.

And then now recently we have drugs that on the net balance, even if if you're healthy, are better for you to take than not.

And the world we're going to end up in in about five or 10 years is that people who don't take the modern drugs will be like way, way, way less healthier than if they took the drugs.

And so that mindset of I don't take drugs unless there's something wrong with me is an incredibly useful mindset in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.

In the modern era, it is no longer a categorically useful way to think about things.

And we need to start thinking more from an enhancement perspective and less from a perspective of first, do no wrong.

It is so hard for, I'm 45.

It is, and I know, I know you are too, because we went to college together.

I know how hard it is to unwrap my mind around the previous mindset.

Like, I don't even take Tylenol when I have a headache because I'm like, headaches happen.

It's fine.

Look, if I have a migraine, maybe that's different.

I didn't take the codeine when I had my wisdom teeth out because it didn't hurt that bad.

And I was like, I'm not going to take this.

horrible thing.

And also I was kind of like, I want to see how much pain I can deal with because I'm 19.

My man.

But there's just just some part of me that has grown up my whole life with being like, don't take a GLP1.

Don't take Terzapatide, even though it has all these benefits, because there's got to be negatives that we just don't know about and they're going to be worse.

Or since there's nothing wrong with me, my body is something, something evolution, nature, or if you're religious, God made you in a certain way.

And you don't want to screw with that.

But then it's like, I look at all these other things that I do and I'm like, well, my testosterone went down.

So I take vitamins and minerals that help my testes make more of it.

Some of those are pharmaceutical.

I don't take testosterone because I don't need it.

The reason I got introduced to you originally is because you did a video about don't take TRT unless you actually need it and you don't need it.

And I didn't need it.

The doctor was like, no, you don't need it, but you can take these few things.

And then my testosterone went from 250 to like 1,200 without supplementing.

That's incredible.

So testosterone is a perfect example where within the normal range of testosterone production, everything is really hunky-dory.

And if you're outside or on the low end of that normal range, TRT is a great idea.

But if you double your testosterone way above the normal production, then it's just not a great idea.

If you say, hey, what are the non-hypogonadism benefits of TRT?

The doctors will be like, there

aren't none.

They're taking way more tests than you need.

It's just nonsense because it literally empirically is shown to make you probably worse in your health.

You take a lot more, and now you're steridict, and it's way worse for your health.

But almost everyone who takes trazepatide, not everyone, almost everyone is going to see better overall systemic health in a variety of organ systems than someone who does not take trizepatide.

That is a big deal.

That is a difference.

It's not the usual paradigm.

And then if it's not the usual paradigm, but it's staring us in the face, I say it's time for us to sit and think about, should we consider doing this?

Remember in that post on Instagram that got lots of virality, I didn't say people should be taking it.

I said people should consider taking it.

And that's a huge, huge difference.

But considering taking something is the beginning of the road to like, oh, well, nah, maybe I don't need it.

And the doctor agrees.

Or it's like, you know what, maybe I do need it.

And here's the thing.

You can try it for a few months, get your blood work, get your markers of systemic inflammation and see.

And if it's like, dude, holy shit, this is way better.

I mean, why not continue to take it?

And a typical retort is, we don't know what the long-term downsides would be.

There are two arguments against that.

One argument against that is medications like terzepatite, for example semaglatide and a few of the other GLP ones, laraglatide, et cetera, exanatide, they've been around for 20 years.

People have been taking them for 20 years in diabetic populations.

So long-term side effects have already been figured out for this class of drugs.

Not every single drug and the new ones like terzepatite could have bad health effects, but it's not like we just don't know anything about them.

The other thing, and this is a big philosophical point.

You know that without taking these drugs, over the course of your life and over the aging process, your health gets worse and worse and then you die.

The default is not safety.

The default is you're fucked.

And so if you want to be less fucked, then you can take these drugs.

You are calculating risk against risk.

One of the probably

most useful in some contexts phrase, but is philosophically a non-starter in most cases at a deep level, is better safe than sorry.

There is no such thing as safe.

Let's say you're in a tent.

Your radio to communicate to your base camp is 50 feet away.

And you're in the African desert and there's lions around.

Do you stay in the tent and go better safe than sorry?

Maybe, when there's lions right outside.

But if you don't see any lions for a little while, you might take a little sprint to get that radio.

Because you are not safe.

You're safe for a little while.

But eventually you're going to have not enough water and you will fucking starve.

And you need that radio to radio to camp for them to come get your dumbass.

And so the assumption that everything's hunky-dory and just don't fuck with it is an incorrect assumption on philosophical grounds.

It's true if the rudimentary medicines of the 20th century are what you have, then yeah, but they're fragile side effects.

They're all over the place.

You don't want to take them because they're net negatives unless there's something really wrong with you.

That is absolutely no longer the case.

And we have to be open to that because terzepatite is just like one of the first medications of its kind.

There are medications right now in multiple phases of FDA clinical trials that are called exercise mimetics.

They trigger your body to have a response that's very similar to what it would with exercise.

That means they make your entire body healthier in like 10 different ways.

Burn more fat.

It's better for your cognitive performance.

It's better for longevity.

It reduces cardiovascular risk.

It's better for your kidneys.

By the way, another benefit of trisapatite is it improves kidney function.

But again, I could just be here all day saying all the benefits of it.

And so with these drugs, exercise mimetics, it is almost certainly going to be true that almost everyone would be better off taking them than not.

So that idea that we shouldn't shouldn't take drugs unless we need to is slowly but surely, not so slowly in the next few years, but very surely, becoming a poor heuristic on which to base.

It's kind of like saying, imagine in the mid-90s, someone's like, you should get AOL, you know, America Online.

It'll be great.

The internet's great.

And you could be like, yeah, I've done super well without the internet.

Fuck it.

Right.

You could say that about the cell phone in the mid-90s.

Everyone has a landline.

You'll get me when you get me.

Can you imagine in 2025, someone would be like,

I don't want a cell phone.

You'd be like, how are you going to deal with society?

You don't understand this thing is a map.

It's a note taker.

It has AI on it now.

Saying, well, I don't need a cell phone would just be baffling at this point.

And everyone would laugh at you.

And so I think that's the direction of the pharmaceutical interventions that we can have in humans is that at first they were very not good.

I do imagine this.

What about medicine, like pre-industrial times, pre-scientific medicine, 1700s?

Bloodletting.

Bloodletting?

You're like, no, hell no.

Then, you know, later on, it was like blood pressure meds.

Like, well, if you have high blood pressure, great.

If you don't, it's just all done side effects for no reason.

And now we're entering that flip of the switch, that era where it's like, no, some drugs are actually better off that you take them than not.

And that's a big deal.

That's actually a really big deal.

I think the challenge is going to be old farts like me in their 40s who are like, I don't know, my whole life I went this way.

And that's what you see with older folks, right?

Like my parents.

And you're like, hey, you should really look into getting,

you should have your blood work done, dad, and you should take something that helps your testosterone because you're 80 and you play sports every day.

And he's like, I don't want to get involved in that.

And it's like, I understand because when he was younger, you didn't want to get involved in anything like that because the only guys taking TRT were bodybuilders that died by age 40 from crazy heart shit from like 1960s in the 50s.

You were taking 10 times the dose.

Yeah.

Soviet Union powerlifters.

Like, yeah, you don't want to get involved in that.

But you're 80 years old.

You can take a pharmaceutical therapeutic dose and you will feel better.

My buddy's dad is a doctor.

He's very familiar with all these things.

He refused TRT for three years.

Finally, my buddy was like, do it for a couple of months and see how you feel.

And his dad, who's 80, is like, this is the best thing that I've ever done for my health in memory.

Almost everyone says that.

And he's a doctor and he was resisting it, right?

Because he's like, I don't want to get involved in that.

So it's amazing.

Like you can be an actual MD and you still can't unwrap your mind around the past 30 years of societal programming that says, maybe don't take drugs without being sick.

Yes.

It's really tough.

And it's good programming back when it was around.

I mean, rules can be totally true for a while and then they're wrong.

And a big part of cognitive flexibility and just being as smart as you can be is to just not stick to rules that don't work anymore.

You know what I mean?

Imagine from 1939 to 1945 thinking that Germans are swell people.

They're fucking homicidal maniacs.

Fuck them.

Kill them all.

Imagine after 1945 thinking Germans are evil.

They're fucking great.

Germans are amazing people.

They're peaceful.

They're awesome.

They're productive.

So what happened?

Like, well, we killed Hitler and the Nazis stopped having power.

Like, right, okay.

So one rule was totally true for six years and then totally wrong after that.

That's like a real thing.

And there's a trillion examples of things where you have to update your rules.

There's a problem that human cognitive architecture has a lot of biases built in.

And one of them is called the status quo bias.

And the status quo bias is just everywhere.

And status quo bias is what mostly feeds the idea of better safe than sorry.

The status quo is basically like, shit, just been like this.

So this is how we do shit.

This is how we're going to do shit.

And the bias means that you're like, nah, you know, this is how we've done things.

It's probably good.

And then we're going to resist change.

And the thing is on a purely logical grounds, any change you introduce should be examined on the evidence and on reasoning and be like, wait, hold on.

Is this actually an improvement?

I mean, can you imagine if microchip companies had status quo bias, be like, dude, we have two nanometer nodes.

We can make microchips 10 times faster and cheaper.

And you're like, nah, nah, we've been making them like this for years.

Like, you just wouldn't be in business after two years.

It's insane to think of in any field in which shit actually matters.

But people have this illusion against a very, very important point.

I'm fine.

And you are fine.

And you don't ever have to take drezepatide.

But whether or not you're fine in 10 years or 20 years can really be altered by if you take these drugs now or not.

And everyone always says, and everyone's always correct, preventative medicine is the best kind of medicine.

Well, fuck, man, we got pills and injections that make you less sick in five, 10, or 20 years.

It's probably a good idea not to take it, but to think about taking it, to consult your doctor about taking it.

That's right.

Not medical advice.

It's funny, your story reminded me of my ex-girlfriend back in college.

She was an exchange student in Japan, and they were like, I read her grandfather at a family party.

She was back visiting.

And they were like, don't mention Japan.

and i was like okay and later on i was like so why couldn't you mention japan or i grandfather well he was in world war ii and he went to japan and let's just say it wasn't a vacation and then when he found out later that she went to japan he was like you were around all those people that are a bunch of sight murderous psychopaths and it's like japan yeah what but yeah like world war ii different japan different japan kind of a different situation yep You ever notice how you plateau in the gym, then you go on vacation, you eat croissants, you drink wine, you do nothing.

Somehow you look better in the mirror.

That's not science.

That is witchcraft.

fortunately supporting the show and saving some cash at the same time does not require witchcraft it just requires a couple of promo codes we'll be right back

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Now, back to Dr.

Mike.

All right.

I'm curious about the steroids and Reutrage stuff.

Because last time we talked, I mentioned...

Reut Rage and something like that.

And you were saying the earlier you take steroids, the more it messes with your brain.

And I wanted to ask about maybe damage isn't quite the right word, but the changes it makes in your brain.

And you always hear like, oh, steroids amplify your personality, but that doesn't really make sense to me because, like, if I'm a curious, naturally curious person who's really empathetic, are steroids going to make me more like that?

Or does it only work if you're an asshole?

Like, what exactly are people talking about here?

This is exactly the point.

I mean, you made half my point for me.

I love it.

Steroids amplify the male part of your personality.

And males and females have different personality trends on average.

There are many exceptions.

And so, if you take more and more androgens, more and more steroids, you begin to think and act more male-like.

So, for example, you are more likely to become less verbally communicative.

You are, you know, the strong silent type, like, meh, see, get away from me.

Right?

Like, yeah, why won't you talk to me?

See, you know, shit like that.

Right.

What'd you do this weekend?

Uh, chilled.

I was with a boy, see?

Now you have business.

But like, oh, he's so manly, which he is.

But, you know, the strong silent type is a male characteristic.

Right.

Another one is proneness to egotistical, aggressive responses.

If someone butts up to you and you're female, you're like, eh, I'm just going to talk shit about this bitch later.

If someone butts up to you and you're male, shit might get into fighting territory real goddamn quick because that extreme maleness means.

Like you don't take shit from people and your ego is a little bit more fragile than normal.

You take things as kind of assaults on your identity more often and a bit more of a hair trigger.

So that definitely happens.

The aggression in general goes up.

At extreme doses, irritability goes up because testosterone gets you super fucking wired and you're always kind of like,

and you know, like imagine having the sensation of being ready to go wrestle someone in competition, but like half of that all the time.

Yeah, shit gets real old.

And your way of interacting with the world is like just no longer appropriate for most pursuits.

And so when people say, oh, you know, steroids amplify your characteristics, they amplify your masculine characteristics and they reduce oftentimes your feminine characteristics.

Your ability, for example, to be compassionate is reduced when you're on lots of steroids.

Your ability to be empathetic to see someone else's point of view.

Your ability to communicate your own emotions and understand other people's emotions go down.

Remember, autism spectrum disorder.

is not totally, but a predominantly male disorder, affects way more males than females.

It is almost the extreme male brain personified.

And so if you're on enough steroids, you begin to exhibit more autism-like traits, which means that you no longer really know as much about what people likely feel and think in their heads.

And it makes you more difficult to interact with in society.

It is not an enhancement of your ability to do this.

And if you take steroids early, like you're still a teenager and you take them in high doses until you're in your 20s or something, you can permanently lock your brain in.

to more egotistical, more aggressive, more sexualized, by the way.

It's another thing is androids make you way more sexual, but sexual in a risk-taking and physical way, not sexual necessarily in a compassionate, touching, loving, super-emotional way.

And so, yes, steroids do kind of make you more of an asshole, or they make you more confident and more expressive and more vibrant, but you take enough of them.

Eventually, they make you an asshole because at extreme doses, everyone becomes a dick on steroids.

So that's one of those things exactly to your point.

They do accentuate characteristics, not all of them, male-like characteristics.

And every characteristic at its extreme becomes toxic.

And so when you take lots of steroids, you're literally multiplying your normal testosterone or testosterone equivalent, other molecules that act like that, you know, dianabol and things like that.

You're multiplying them by two, five, or 10 times the normal amount.

Imagine someone who was so compassionate that they were being bit by mosquitoes and they wouldn't use bug spray because they, well, mosquitoes need food.

And who am I to, you know, like get them off of their food supply?

Be like, dude, you're going to get fucking malaria out here.

And they're like, well, good.

You know, it's the least I have coming.

Like at some point, even compassion becomes toxic when it's so extreme, it biases you into irrational behavior.

So that's what steroids do to people at the extremes.

There's a religion, I think, somewhat based, I don't know if this is like Buddhism offshoot or something, where they sweep ahead of them when they walk because they don't want to crush little insects or whatever.

I mean, that is mental illness codified into a religion.

100%.

And I love the vibes.

Like, it's such a great intention, but it makes working through the world and solving even bigger problems and eventually saving every single insect by uploading them into the fucking simulated cloud for AI much less likely if you just don't have your priorities straight.

You got to eat food, you got to walk around, and trade-offs have to be made at extreme emotional valences.

You're no longer able to make rational trade-offs, which is definitely true with steroids.

It's like Road Rage, for example.

Normally Road Rage, someone's like, you're a piece of shit.

And they cut you off.

And you're like, ah, that guy must be having a bad day.

And on steroids, you're like, that guy thinks he can challenge me.

I wonder how scared he would get if I got out of my car.

Let's fuck around and find out.

That's not good because one of several things can happen.

One is you win that interaction and that person pisses their pants and then you just humiliated a human being and you gave them trauma.

Good job, you piece of shit.

The other way, that's the best thing that can happen.

That's the best outcome, yeah.

Yeah.

The second worst outcome is the police get involved and you go to jail for physically intimidating someone or at least go to court for a few months and spend a shitload of money.

And the worst thing that can happen is that guy also has an attitude and a fucking license to carry, and then you're dead.

Yeah.

So, you know, like that kind of thinking on extreme doses of steroids can get you in real deep shit.

Yeah, it's scary to think about.

And I see a lot of younger and younger people using.

Well, actually, maybe that's just a bias.

Do you see a lot of younger and younger people using steroids?

I feel like I do now because of Instagram, or is that just I'm seeing it more because of Instagram?

You're a very sharp individual, and it's great that you're preempting most of these questions with your own hypotheses, which tend to be correct.

I love it.

It makes my job easier.

Awesome.

Thank you.

My best answer is: there is no statistically rigorous way we have yet devised to be able to tell if steroids use in younger populations is increasing as a fraction of the population.

Like in absolute terms, there's just 300 million people in America.

And in the 80s, there was 200 million people.

Got to come from new people.

You know, your absolute levels of steroids are going to go up.

But as far as fractions, I don't know.

You're completely correct in diagnosing the asymmetry there with social media.

Our view into other people's lives is like many, many, many times greater than it was ever before.

Like if you wanted to see how someone was doing in a suburb of Kansas City in 1988, you would have to travel there and follow them around.

Nobody talked about regular people in the news.

You just would never see it.

Never in a million years.

Now people voluntarily post a huge fraction of their lives on social media.

And so people are like, oh, XYZ problem is so terrible.

You're like, well, maybe it was terrible this whole time.

They just started talking about it now.

In the 1980s, for example, mid-80s, in Detroit and actually all around the nation, violent crime was like so much worse than today.

It's difficult to express.

You just didn't see it because if you weren't in downtown Detroit, inner-city Detroit, you could just like avoid it.

You were just somewhere else.

Now you have police, body cam, YouTube channels that show you tons of crime.

And you could very easily think, oh my God, this is the worst thing ever.

Crime is at a huge increase, so on and so forth.

So with steroids, I just don't know.

If I had to put my gear to the street, I would say to me, like on just pure vibes, the problem doesn't seem any worse than ever because there's lots of TikTok teens that will click, like, and share and joke about steroids.

The number of teens I know who's actually tried steroids is profoundly low.

Most TikTok teens are like, lol trend.

I'm like, oh, cool.

How much trend are you running?

They're like, well, I wouldn't even know where to get it.

And you're like, exactly.

Steroids are very difficult to get.

I still have to get my steroids in wacky ways I can't discuss legal reasons.

And so like, you know, if you're 16, you're like, I want to buy steroids.

Like, all right, kid, hit it.

Do it.

They're like, the internet?

Like, I don't know, that's not going to work.

Good luck.

What is steroids.com?

That doesn't fucking work.

And so all of a sudden, I don't know if kids are using more.

I suspect the answer is probably not much.

Maybe there's an increase in use.

And if there is, that's definitely a bad thing.

I just don't think it's like a cataclysmic.

Like, oh my God, we've lost our children to steroids.

Highly, highly unlikely.

And also, kids get two views of things.

They get the positive views from the TikTok teens that are flexing their muscles.

But then they get like the views of like guy with 100 pimples per square inch on his back.

They see Liver King going through his arc.

And a lot of teens are like, dude, fuck that.

I'm not taking steroids.

This shit is insane.

It used to be like in the 90s and the 2000s, the only exposure you got for steroids really was baseball players would use them in the news to get really good at baseball.

Bodybuilders would use them to go look amazing on bodybuilding magazines.

Now on social media, you get like the whole spectrum.

So if you want to be like, hmm, what are the downsides of steroids from real humans?

Oh my God, dude, you can go down a rabbit hole after two hours.

I ain't never fucking taking steroids again.

That information was only available from the government back in the day.

And the government would do that really convincing thing.

You and I are both children of drug education in the 80s and 90s, no doubt.

Like, Yeah.

Let's just say no.

And you're like, why do people use drugs at all?

Yeah.

And they're like, don't do marijuana.

You're like, is it fun?

They're like, no, it's not fun.

It's terrible.

It causes hallucinations.

Look at the reefer madness.

That makes you die.

100%.

You just get like addicted to it and then you can't stop.

It was never an amazing time.

And nowadays, people are like, yeah, like steroids are awesome in 50 ways and they're terrible in 50 ways.

And when you're a teen, you're like, ah, fuck, man.

I don't know.

And it's kind of scary and it should be kind of scary.

I remember a middle school science teacher asking us all why people did drugs.

And it was like, because they're bad, because they're stupid.

And then he was like, guys, it's because they're fun.

Did he get fired after that?

I remember being like, Mr.

O'Donnell has something to say.

And he was like, the other day when I said drugs are fun, I was speaking hyperbolically because the administration was just like, what?

You know how many calls we got from parents that were like, Mr.

O'Donnell said drugs are fun?

I personally really like to talk to younger people about things that have trade-offs because I have like, maybe, I don't know, a knack for keeping shit real as fuck.

I can swear, I don't care.

No one is going to fire me.

Right.

And I think when you talk to younger people about things and you go, they're bad and there's no trade-offs.

And when they try these things by themselves and they experience basically none of the side effects, they're going to be like, wow, people lied to me.

They said these things were bad and I'm just not going to listen to them and I'm going to do drugs.

The thing is, you have to cut people the real deal.

So listen, kids, a lot of drugs are really fun.

Super fucking fun, bro.

And some people can do them and they just really don't have huge downsides and they stop doing them.

They go on with their lives and it's great.

But for a lot of people to do drugs, they're really fun and and they come with hideous, hideous fucking consequences.

And they're like, well, like what?

Like, you ever seen a meth head before?

And they're like, no, so you drive them over to a fucking part of the trailer park where there's meth heads.

And they're like, what happened to that guy's mouth?

Like, methamphetamines happened to his mouth.

They're like, oh, I always say like the best drug education ever would be to show some, like a class of seventh graders the movie Train Spotting.

Oh, yeah.

Bro.

Jordan, could you imagine watching, sitting after that movie and ever trying heroin again?

I saw that movie when I was like 19 and I was like, I don't like, ever fuck with that.

Ever.

Yeah.

Like the babies crawling on the ceiling and and their own baby dies of AIDS or whatever.

You're like, nope.

Yeah, that was categorically not horrific.

Like real drug stories are fucked up.

And that also means different drugs get different takes.

Say, like, alcohol is really fun, but you're very likely to get in legal trouble.

You're going to be emotionally dysregulated.

You're going to get into fist fights.

You might die of alcohol poisoning.

There's real serious risks.

Marijuana, way less risk, but you can get addicted to it.

And not psych, like, not physiologically, but psychologically.

And then your sleep gets weird.

It's not super healthy for you.

It's not great for developing brains.

It's more nuanced.

You know, do it responsibly.

Do it a little less than you think you might want to.

Maybe you're good to go.

Caffeine's a drug.

You know,

sleep loss is a bad idea.

You can be so, you know, wired on caffeine that you're actually dangerous to yourself and others on the road, but you have no idea because you've been awake for a day and a half, that sort of thing.

And all the way to like, you know, what about crack cocaine?

You'd be like, crack cocaine is going to fuck up your life.

Okay.

Any other questions?

Like, no.

What about regular Coke, like China White at a party?

Like, some people have a lot of fun with it, but it gets really addictive really fast.

It's expensive as fuck.

You never really know if it's cocaine.

And you can just OD on some crazy ass pink cocaine that's not even cocaine anymore.

They're like, okay, so this is kind of risky.

Like, yes, correct.

So if you give people the real deal like that and you really layer in the real life, gnarly downsides and the upsides, then people can make an informed decision, even if they're teens.

Because you just, you don't want to tell people half the story.

When they find out you're lying, they're going to believe the other half.

And that would be a real bad idea.

Yeah.

The whole like just say no thing blew up in our face, right?

It just didn't work.

100%.

Speaking of drugs, there's so many many angles I could go with this, but I'm curious,

why can't I just do lines of cocaine instead of cardio if both get my heart rate up?

One is way more fun until you die than running.

But like, why do I need to do the running part?

Yeah.

So when you do cocaine, your energy expenditure goes up a little bit, but not a ton.

So you feel wired, but you're not actually moving around.

And so the moving around is what burns the calories, which draws the fat cells down in size, which gives you all those health health benefits.

So if you do cocaine or you do caffeine, you do get a little bit of a thermogenic effect, but not a ton.

And so that basically running the system really fast without reducing substrate is going to lead to a lot of health problems.

Whereas if you run the system a ton and you physically move around, then it is wildly good for your health.

That being said, modern exercise mimetic drugs do jack up your cellular activity.

They don't jack up your heart rate.

And they actually do burn fat and make you way healthier.

And so drugs that do much of what exercise does are just a few years away in a pill.

That's really,

well, awesome, crazy to think about.

Because in fact, this is maybe like a, as a bodybuilder, you might just disagree with this take and that's why you're here.

But people work out a ton.

But the real results I think that the average person wants from working out, if they're honest, most of that comes from being leaner, not from having much bigger muscles.

A little bit bigger, yeah.

But like most of us don't really actually want to be that big.

We just want to be lean enough that we look muscular.

Does that distinction make sense?

I'm not explaining it super well.

It makes perfect sense.

I agree with you completely.

Okay.

Well, good.

I was not sure where that was going.

To your earlier point here, those drugs are incredible because now instead of trying to get like really giant and then do a diet and lean down and all that stuff, a lot of us could just take whatever helps us get lean and do cardio if we wanted to, if you are into that kind of thing, which no one is.

And there are drugs already in testing that do both.

So there are drugs like Azaloprag, for example, which is an exercise memetic, which slightly increases your muscle size, almost completely prevents losing muscle when you're in a fat loss phase and increases your daily caloric expenditure and repartitions your fat down.

And this is like one drug that can make you substantially lean or substantially healthier and you lose zero muscle doing it or even gain a little bit.

That idea of gaining a little bit of muscle and getting way leaner and healthier means means that the potential market for a drug like this is insanely high.

It's like everyone.

It should be insanely high.

It's like damn near everyone.

That's right.

That's right.

Wow.

When can I get that?

Asking for a friend.

That's incredible.

How far away is stuff like that?

So like there are dozens of drugs like this already in various stages of development.

Oh my God.

A ton of them have already passed animal trials.

A ton of them have already passed several human trials.

In the next several years, a couple of these are going to be coming out.

Imagine reading the Trezepatide literature.

A few years ago before it was out, be like, this shit's really coming?

Like,

it has all these benefits.

And now that people take it, we see like, oh, shit, it really works.

And a ton of people are on it.

And they think it's fucking great.

And so in a few years, more and more of these drugs will trickle out.

But there's something really, really big happening in the pharmaceutical space that bears mention.

And it is the AI revolution.

So with artificial intelligence, here's how drug discovery works.

Chemists.

and drug scientists sit around and they come up based on how much they know about the body and receptors and types of activity, they come up with hypotheses about what drug could we make that could have these beneficial effects and low side effects.

They come up with some candidates.

They have to test them directly in animals.

A lot of the times the animal testing, the animals croak or the animals have bad outcomes or the outcomes are good, but they're really small and the drug is too expensive to make.

And so it ends up costing years and years and millions and millions and sometimes billions of dollars and gets you sometimes somewhere, but a lot of times nowhere.

Nowadays, and I mean literally today and as of several years ago, and now this is better than ever, you can get artificial intelligence to model out these drugs, model out the receptor class you're targeting, and go through hundreds and hundreds of thousands of drugs, changing them a little bit by bit to see which one would hypothetically work best to have the best positive effects and the fewest side effects.

This is done entirely on computer chip.

And so by the time you have candidates that you're going to test in animal trials, you are already 99% of the way to the truth.

And so the five candidate drugs you train, your test in rats or mice are not just like your five best guesses from a team of scientists.

They're your five best guesses after having deleted out 500,000 other really good guesses.

This is like instead of taking smart people and having them learn a subject, you take smart people, you push them 500,000 of the smartest people through grad school.

And your top five scorers and most best scientists, those are the people you go through and teach that new subject.

They're going to be way better at it than just regular smart people.

And so this AI drug revolution is just starting to create candidate drugs today that are starting to enter animal trials today, which means that in 2027, when they start to enter human trials, you're going to get instant blockbuster drugs that are like 10 times more beneficial than any drug we've ever made with 10 times fewer side effects.

We already have drugs in the pipeline now.

The Regeneron drug I was talking about, Travogramab, Goretis Mab, the ones that increase your muscle mass, reduce your fat mass, Azelloprag, those are drugs that were developed without AI.

They're already killers compared to today's drugs, that there's going to be a leap to that next level.

And here's how it works.

Drugs come in certain different types, from way difficult to make and administer and really expensive, all the way to profoundly easy.

Some of the drugs that are the most promising right now are called biologics.

They're like incredibly, incredibly fragile.

A lot of times you have to get them infused into you in a hospital because you can't even administer them yourself.

They cost like $10,000 per dose.

Fuck every single part of that.

No, I'm good.

I guess you have a life-threatening disease, it's worth it.

Anything other than that, you're like, hell no.

Then there are drugs that are injectable and they're peptides, for example.

And like, you have to store them in a refrigerator and you have to inject them with a needle and you have to inject once a week.

They're really effective, but they're a little expensive.

They're tough to get.

And then there are drugs called small molecule drugs, oral small molecule drugs, which means they're incredibly stable.

You put them in a pill.

The pill is good for two years.

You put the pill in a fucking container in your cupboards and you just like take one a day and it does everything that the biologic does, but at like one cent per day, and it doesn't go bad.

And so, as we have these biologic drugs being researched, a lot of them will never even see the light of day.

Because the same company that researches the biologic drugs and paid a shitload of money to have them go through trials, they already, some of these companies have small molecule drugs that are oral that are, as soon as they start getting tested, they're going to blow through everything.

That's the drug you'll see in the market in 2028, 2029.

So, my prediction is that in the late 2020s, the spigot of unbelievable drugs to make you leaner, to give you every benefit of exercise or almost every benefit, to make you sharper cognitively, to give you more daily energy and to make you more muscular is going to open up into a fire hose.

And at that point, the world will start to change.

Another way to see this is look at the app space.

What is there not an app for on your phone?

There's a fucking app for everything.

15 years ago, there was an app basically for nothing.

And the drug space today is there's not a whole lot of apps.

The drug space in five years will be like, what do you you need?

We got drugs for that.

And they're damn good.

And you're better off taking them than not.

Where this is going is eventually a lot of people are going to be on five or six drugs daily or weekly or monthly.

And these drugs are just going to make you in every conceivable way better than you would be without them.

And then the people who don't take drugs, they'll be kind of like the equivalent of Amish people today, where you're like, oh, you don't have electricity.

That's kind of weird.

Okay, cool.

There's going to be an interesting gap for 10 or possibly possibly even 20 years between people who have like a telehealth doctor that's going to be like, Jordan, you need, you want trituzepatide?

Sure.

I saw your last blood work.

All right, cool.

Mail it to them.

And then, you know, the people who can afford that, because it's going to be like $800 a month or something.

I don't know what it costs.

But, you know, telehealth, they mark it up because it's kind of like wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

I'm making sure you don't die on the thing, but do you need it?

Need it?

No insurance is going to cover that.

And then there's going to be like this whole 10 or again, 20 years where people are like, oh, oh, I don't know about that.

It's not mainstream enough for me to take it.

My doctor doesn't know anything about it because he went to medical school in 1997 and he hasn't really learned much since then.

That whole sort of like curve of early adopters, then we'll see like Denmark prescribes it to everyone in the whole country.

Yeah.

Because, and then it's like, well, this is America.

We're not doing that because your insurance company has to pay for it and they don't want to do that.

Yeah.

It's going to take like 30 years for us to get there.

Yeah.

I don't think it'll take that long.

I think your concern is a very valid on principle.

It'll take longer than it should.

But I think in about 10 years, almost everyone will be taking advanced drugs.

Wow.

Actually, in 10 years, I think the landscape could be substantially more different.

So far, we covered that there's biologics, which are really, really difficult to make it administer, super expensive.

Peptide drugs, which are somewhere in between small oral small molecule drugs, which are super easy.

There's one step further you can take, and that's DNA modification.

If we're giving you a drug that is a certain molecule that makes one of your proteins express higher, and that gives you all these benefits, we say, okay, why is a protein expressed lower?

And the answer is like your DNA just codes in to make only so much of this protein.

You can ask the next question.

What if we change the DNA to make more of the protein?

That's an interesting question.

It's like replacing the drug with your body makes the drug now instead of you having it in oral form.

And so.

Eventually, DNA modification will probably replace almost all pharmaceutical intervention.

Wow.

So like you just get the DNA modification once, and all of a sudden, you're, in several months, way leaner, and you stay leaner indefinitely, or you're more jacked, or you have more daily energy, or you're a little bit sharper cognitively.

The other thing why I think resisting these drugs is going to be very, very short-sighted or short-sighted, short-temporal phenomenon is that vanity wins against every opponent.

As soon as you have drugs and DNA modifications for age reversal and skin quality enhancement and hairline enhancement, so many people are going to take them that all of a sudden it's going to be the status quo bias that we were talking earlier is going to shift to, yeah, of course you take them.

And then status quo bias fights for us and not against us because someone's like, well, I'm not taking them.

You're like, why not, idiot?

Do you like being bald?

For example, there's a drug currently finishing trials.

You put it in a cream and you rub it on your skull.

It like re-wakes your senescent hair cells.

It's phenomenally effective and it's local only.

It doesn't enter your whole system.

Wow.

You got to be real careful about where you put it because wherever you put it, you're going to get really awesome hair growth like for years and years and years thereafter.

This drug and no doubt the second and third generation of this drug in the next few years is just going to straight up solve hair loss.

Like, I mean, solve hair loss.

And then at some point, you'll have a guy at your work who's bald like me, and you'll be like, dude, why have you fucking taken the cream?

And when the cream is $900 and it's risky and no one knows if it works, maybe there's good reason.

When the cream is $35 and available by prescription and all you do is go to your doctor and be like, I don't want to be bald.

He's like, yeah, no problem.

Let's get the fucking cream.

Man, imagine going to your dermatologist right now and you're like, hey, I've got this thing on my face, like this discoloration.

He's like, yeah, we have cream for that.

Be like, are you sure I can have it?

He'd be like, yeah, this cream has been around for fucking 15 years.

Of course you can have it.

That same thing is going to be there for baldness, for low energy levels, for not enough muscle mass, for too much body fat, and all the way down the line.

And at some point, when people are like, wait a minute, you just take these things and they just make you better.

Enough humans in, here's another one, Jordan.

When people are in your real life experiencing these benefits, it hits different.

When you talk to your best friend's dad and he's 75, but he looks 55 and he's leaner than you and his face looks kind of younger than yours.

You're kind of like, what the fuck's going on?

He's like, yeah, I'm on all these drugs.

You're like, aren't you worried?

Like, what about what motherfucker look at me?

And you're like, right?

Yeah.

No, okay.

And then you go home and you're like, am I the last person to not have one?

Remember when the iPhone first came out?

It was just the rich people and tech people.

Yes.

And then two years later, it was for literally everyone because everyone's like, why the fuck don't I have one of those?

Yeah.

That is going to happen with drugs.

People worried about pharmaceutical companies pushing these drugs.

Nobody needs to push this shit on you.

And I personally, I'm a politically like pretty close to a libertarian.

I could give, please, for love of God, don't ever take anything you don't want to.

I just think people are going to want to because who the fuck doesn't want to look younger, be healthier, look leaner and all that stuff.

It's just like an open and shut case.

All right, steroids and cocaine bad.

Okay, kids.

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Now for the rest of my conversation with Dr.

Mike Isratel.

People will say, yeah, but Jordan said, people who can afford it, man, you're going to figure out a way.

You ever meet a broke person who has like an iPhone 16 and you're like, I'm still in the 50s.

Every single broke person.

Yeah.

And like

you go to the gym and you see that gal who's got like a Birken bag and like a Dolce Gabbana onesie and you're like, man, she must be a lawyer.

And you talk to her and she like doesn't have a job.

She's just dating a rich guy or like doesn't even date a rich guy.

You're just like, what do you do again?

And it's like, I spend all of my money on these things because I want them.

And no, I can't afford rent.

I live with my parents.

You know, it's like, you're going to find people who bag groceries and are like 19 and they're going to be on these DNA modification things because it's way more important for them to be jacked and have an abs than it is for them to like move out of their parents' basement or go to college.

Yes.

There are two vectors that work to enhance that.

One is the vector of competition.

There is not one pharmaceutical company.

There are many.

And when one pharmaceutical company has a blockbuster drug that costs $150 a month, every other pharmaceutical company is like, how can we attack that same receptor site, but at $50 a month?

And there's one company that's like, what about 10 bucks a month?

Because if you sell something for 10 bucks a month and your competitors sell it for 50, you instantly have market dominance.

But the next fucking day and no one even bothers to buy the shit afterwards.

Imagine if someone tried to sell you a Toota Corolla for $150,000, you'd be like, are you out of your fucking mind?

Yeah.

Like, it's just a non-starter.

And so competition is a big deal.

Another big deal is that when we see from whatever our healthcare system is going to be like at this point, if it's AI-assisted healthcare system, this is going to be solved because AI is smart and not biased like us.

We have a stupid healthcare system.

But even if we don't, at some point, it's going to be obvious that like, okay, if we have people on these drugs, it saves us like 10x the medical expenses over the next 10 years.

And so insurance companies will be like, it's free, give it to everyone because they save a fuckload of money.

Remember, insurance companies, health insurance companies are more on your side than you are because they really give a fuck if you get unhealthy later because they have to pay for it.

They don't want to pay for it.

They're greedy people.

And so what they want to do is be like, oh, hold on.

If we have this person approved to go on super cheap drug that saves us $100,000 heart surgery in 10 years, well, you fucking God, give it a voice,

we're going to figure out how to make you take this thing.

Like we're going to try and lobby for laws where you have to quit smoking with this drug.

Yes, it'll be like, we don't even have to do that.

But here's how it might work.

You might apply to an insurance, a medical insurance.

Let's say we have a free market insurance company, which I think would be a really good idea.

You have one policy.

You could do another company, do another policy.

When you look, you scroll through, you have, you know, ChatGPT to help you pick a policy.

And you're like, dude, wait, this policy is like full spectrum health insurance for $100 a month.

And you're like, huh?

How does it work?

Like, well, they'll do your blood work for you and they'll ask you what medications you're on.

And if you get onto certain very awesome approved medications and your doctor says it's okay, every single medication you get on, they charge you less money, like a lot less money every month.

And if you get on all of them, you could be paying 50 bucks a month.

And you're like, wait, so, but they're making me take these medications.

Like, no, you could just not buy the insurance.

But if you get the insurance and you demonstrate you are taking the medications and your blood work is good.

When you have car insurance, nowadays, if you have a Tesla, the safer you drive, the lower your insurance premiums are.

I did not know that.

Because they're like, why the fuck would we charge you a lot of money?

If you're not going to cost us any money, we're going to save you money so you stay with us and keep putting money into the bank.

That same thing can happen with drugs interventions, where at some point, you absolutely will be able to buy insurance having taken zero drugs.

You're like, why is this insurance $500 a month?

Because they know you're going to die, you dumb motherfucker, and they're going to have to spend a fucking $100,000 treating diabetes and cancer and heart disease, which no one else gets anymore.

Because you insist on taking no drugs.

You have to pay the cost to be the boss.

You have to pay your way one way or another.

And insurance companies, if they see drugs that really are beneficial for long term, they desperately want to help you pay for them so that you save yourself and them or yourself a fuckload of problems and yourself and them a lot of money down the line.

Yeah, that'll be interesting.

A free market approach would actually, I'm sure there's downsides that people will email in about, but that would be so interesting to see.

Because you're right, then they would finally have an interest in keeping you healthy.

They do have an interest in keeping you healthy.

They already have an interest in keeping you healthy.

It's just really hard to keep people healthy.

People say, well, preventative medicine is good.

Like, all right, you got any good ideas?

Like Like, eating healthy, like, how the hell is an insurance company going to make you eat healthy?

Yeah, they can't.

And they also know you're probably not going to do it.

She's like, fuck that.

Like, all right, what about like working out?

How the hell are they going to make you work out?

How are they going to enforce that?

It's already true that for many insurance companies, like if you have insurance through work, the insurance company will pay for a gym in your office so that you go work out.

But they also know that most people won't use it.

So you're like, oh, like, I save $10 a month if I work out.

Like, yeah, it's because most people don't do it.

Most people lie about working out.

They have no way to verify that you're doing that.

But if you're taking medications and your blood work is good, insurance companies absolutely will save you a shitload of money.

Yeah, because they could verify.

Well, what does his blood work say?

It says he's taking the drugs.

All right, then, well, or he's working out like crazy and he has the same benefits of taking the drugs.

Yeah.

If you continue to demonstrate really good health, the insurance companies have every reason to charge you very low money.

There's actually in Michigan, there's a policy called My Young Blue, which is for people under the age of 26.

And it's like a full-spectrum health insurance.

It costs very little money.

Why?

Because people under 26 typically don't get into really expensive health shit because their bodies aren't falling apart yet.

If you're taking drugs that make you as likely to get into health trouble at age 45 as you were at age 25, everyone's health insurance goes down.

That's fascinating.

And this is all just a few years away.

I mean, AI just, it's crazy.

You have ChatGPT-5?

It's so much better than four.

It's insane.

Yes.

It is a wisdom generator.

It is.

It's crazy to me.

And yet everyone's like, oh, the energy cost and oh, it has like false negatives or whatever.

Yeah, because people don't, you know.

I got so much pushback because I said, put all the supplements and all the medications you're taking into Chat GPT-5 and ask it if there's any interactions or if you're taking it at the right time of day or if you should change something.

Cause I did that with all my supplements, all my medications for me and my mom.

And it was like, hey, your mom's not taking these two drugs together, is she?

And I was like, mom, are you taking these two drugs together?

And she's like, I don't know.

I just take a handful of these drugs.

And it's like, ask your doctor if you can take these two together.

And the doctor was like, no, you can't.

And my dad was like, you could have told us that.

And he's like, oh, I must have.

And it's like, well, it's not written on any of the things.

Oops.

You negligent a-hole.

And for me, it was like, oh, you're taking fiber with this.

Are you drinking milk or fat with this?

Because you need this as fat-soluble.

And I was like, nah, I'm fasted when I do that.

And it's like, oh, well, you're probably absorbing like 30% of this instead of all of it because it's fat-soluble.

And I was like, crap.

So I had to change up what I drank in the morning.

And people are like, well, chat GPT can give you a false negative and say that something is safe when it's really not.

And it's like, but before you were literally not checking this at all.

Yes.

So

what the hell?

Yeah.

It's not perfect, but it reduces your risk substantially.

and it enhances your benefits substantially.

Also, there are ways to reduce your risk way, way more.

Here's what you do.

You parse your medication situation with ChatGPT.

Tell it your medications are taking.

Tell it your supplements you're taking.

Ask for a recommendation of how to modify.

It'll give you one.

The next prompt you enter, because it is a huge context window.

It remembers everything you talked about in the whole thread.

You go, hey, I'm skeptical.

Can you red team?

Red team is like a...

Basically like looking at something from the most critical perspective you can.

Can you red team your own analysis to find holes in it?

It'll do that.

You do it once.

You go, can you red team that analysis to find even more holes?

It'll do that.

At some point, five red teams later, it'll be like, this is all pretty solid.

Now you have the most powerful thing ever created, the most intelligent machine ever made, the most intelligent entity ever made, 5x checking its fucking logic for you.

At the end of that, which is like literally five prompts, I mean, it's 10 minutes of your time.

At the end of that process, you don't have to worry about hallucination that much because, holy crap, the thing checked itself a ton.

And every time it checks itself, it runs new logic loops.

So it's fresh every time.

By the way, this thing is inherently unbiased in a way that humans absolutely are not.

And GPT-5 erases the best doctors on overall medical knowledge and diagnostic criteria.

It's not even close.

It's just smarter than your doctor.

It just is.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

That sounds rude.

It's smarter than me.

It's smarter than everybody else.

And so does it make mistakes?

Fuck yeah.

Is it good to keep a human in a loop?

Absolutely.

Should you ever take anything ChatGPT tells you that you can parse through your doctor?

Absolutely not.

But is it a great way to catch what your doctor might be missing and come back to them?

God, yes.

Why wouldn't you want excellent advice from an expert?

I know.

I just, I thought it was comical that they were like, it's going to give you a false negative and it's really bad.

And all these doctor organizations or pharmaceutical organizations recommend not using it.

And I was like, oh, the people that recommended the drugs to you that it says you shouldn't take together because it might kill you, those people say you shouldn't be using ChatGPT to check their work.

and that you should just rely on them.

I'm going to get a second opinion from a machine and maybe another human because that person almost killed my mom.

Thank you, though, for the recommendation to not use this because it might find a mistake that you made.

Dude, here's another thing.

These machines have done a lot more research than your doctor.

I'll tell you how.

How many medical textbooks has your doctor read cover to cover and remembered with almost 100% fidelity?

At zero.

One, maybe.

How many has it read?

I mean, every publicly available medical textbook at the same time.

There's no human doctor that's ever done that.

The other thing is, like, how many variables simultaneously can your doctor juggle in his head?

The answer is roughly three to seven, depending on how smart your doctor is.

What about ChatGPT?

Like 50 at the same time?

That's a qualitatively super intelligent machine.

It's insane.

It'll spot things.

You're like, no one's ever spotted this.

And by the way, there's stories all the time of like, I told ChatGPT what was wrong with my dog and my dog, and it said, like, you need this now.

And it saved my dog's life because none of the veterinarians even knew that was a diagnosis because none of them had ever read that weird thing about ticks in suburban Missouri that we have a species of tick.

But here's another one.

Really quick.

How many case reports of various medical conditions being resolved and misdiagnosed, undiagnosed has a doctor read?

I mean, a bunch, dozens, in medical school and their history.

How many has ChatGPT read in its training arc?

I mean, God, fucking literally millions.

Like it knows so, so deeply what we barely know at all that it at least needs to be our teammate in figuring out how the world works.

I'm not saying just give your whole life away to this thing.

That's crazy.

If you asked ChatGPT, it'd be the last thing you want to do is trust me 100%.

But do you want a super, super wise advisor in your ear when you make shit like happen in your life?

Or do you not want a super wise advisor?

No one said perfect advisor.

You know, can you imagine being like, all right, I'm going to play like the shoot'em up game.

Do I want a Navy SEAL to tell me how real combat works so I don't get killed in this game?

Or do I want to just shut them out completely?

Like, well, the Navy SEAL is not perfect, right?

The Navy SEALs have had missions go wrong.

They've lost guys.

Okay.

But is it better than nothing?

Like, well, of course it's better than nothing.

That's that whole like, oh, don't trust ChatGPT because it makes mistakes.

If your standard of reference is perfection, you'll never use anything ever again because there are no perfect systems.

If your standard of reference is better than what we have now, oh my God, AI is an immense tool that you should be using if you're a logical person.

It just reminds me of when people said, we don't want to get rid of elevator operators because what if something goes wrong in the elevator?

And it's like, oh, you got a call button in there and then people can come get you out and there's a box downstairs you can shut it off and they can open the doors.

And it's like, nah, I want a guy in there with me.

Yeah.

I don't feel like this is safe.

Nobody would argue that in 2025.

If you have an elevator operator, it's like a tourist attraction because it's so weird, right?

Yes.

But when they got rid of elevator operators for computerized elevators, people lost their minds.

They lost their minds.

They couldn't believe that you would do that.

You would let me into an elevator all by myself to operate this machine that could kill me by snapping off the cable?

Unbelievable.

There was a point.

over a period of years.

My friend did a whole podcast about this.

There was a period of years where they had elevator operators just pushing the buttons in an automatic elevator because people were like scared to use the computer.

Yeah.

That was it.

100%, which in retrospect is absurd.

It is.

And we have to have transitional phases like this, but let me put you onto some shit and I that you started this conversation.

Right now, it's mostly your doctor and a little bit with the help of AI.

In a few years, your doctor is going to be going to AI for almost everything.

They're going to be a team.

A few years later, something else is going to happen because remember, AI is exponentially improving its intelligence.

Humans improve their intelligence at a a very low linear rate as society gets better about nutrition and education.

And if you already have good education and good nutrition, your intelligence just follows this normal curve during life and it doesn't really change much.

AI is multiplying by 10 in its intelligence every like, I don't know, six months or some stupid shit right now, like something totally absurd.

So by the late 2020s, you'll have a thing that's already been seen in some of the literature.

There are some studies now that, for example, in diagnostic imaging.

You show AI a bunch of images of medical shit and you're like, what's wrong?

And you show a human doctor what's wrong.

Now, the AI has been beating human doctors at medical imaging for like years now, but what's been happening is AI plus human team has been beating everything until recently.

A few studies came out recently that shows the AI actually beats an AI plus human.

Why?

Because the human will say, nah, I don't think you're right here.

And the humans are a lot dumber than the AI now.

And he'll just get it wrong more often.

Like, imagine that in order to do your job, your co-podcaster was someone with an IQ of 65, like could not graduate high school level of intelligence.

And he just generally agreed with you.

But you're like, hey, if the gain on my mic is off, he's like, no, it's fine.

You're like, but it's not.

He's like, no, I get the final decision.

It's fine.

You're like, this guy's made a fucking mistake.

Why the hell am I listening to this person?

I'm so much smarter than them.

I'm right.

This person is wrong.

That's where AI is headed.

And we don't need to somehow religiously worship AI and be like, oh my God, like you have to believe everything it says.

But I'll tell you this, Jordan.

This is how I think about it.

If an AI system is roughly as smart as a human doctor, I want it in the room.

I want it part of the conversation.

If an AI system is 10 times smarter than a human doctor, I want the doctor to have to sign sign off on life and death things and be fucking uninvolved otherwise.

If an AI system is 100 times smarter than a human doctor, I don't want any biasing by a human doctor.

I want only what the fucking AI says.

If an AI is 1,000 times smarter than a human doctor, I have no idea why I would ever consult a human like you would maybe consult your dog for if you need a surgery tomorrow.

That same level of intelligence difference.

The exponential growth of intelligence through artificial systems is something that's going to change society more in the next five or 10 years than anything ever has by factors of 10 and factors of 10 and factors of 10.

And that's going to lead to wacky stuff.

Currently, we're asking the question: do we trust these systems?

And the answer is incrementally more.

Oh, yeah, actually, they're really good.

In a few years, the question will be like, we need to be pulling humans out of a lot of shit because we don't need them around.

Here's an example.

Right now, my wife and I just got a Tesla, first time ever, and we have full self-driving.

Oh, it's so fun, right?

Bro, it's categorically more safe than you for two reasons.

One, statistically, it's been demonstrated to be more safe.

And two, it's just better at navigating the world.

For example, the Tesla pulled up to a T intersection with my wife and I were in the car, pulled up to a T intersection.

So it pulled up and there's like cars this way, cars that way, right?

Going both ways.

How do humans parse that?

They look this way, they look that way.

And when they look one way or the other, they update their mental model to be like, no cars here for a few seconds.

No cars here right now.

That means I turn.

And everything they remember about what's happening on that side when they're not looking is mental modeling.

And a car could have turned or accelerated, and that's not in your mental model.

You're not literally aware of it because you have binocular vision that has one focal point, very small focal point, I might add.

Guess what Tesla's camera system sees?

Everything.

It's a 360-degree view of perfect awareness 100% of the time.

It sees it all.

And so, like, you can't beat it at driving.

It's just not going to happen.

There are edge cases it can't do.

Those are falling exponentially.

And so, here, let me ask you a question.

In five years, with the acceleration of AI self-driving systems, why the fuck would you let humans drive a car?

They're death machines.

From your lips to God's ears, man, I have been saying for years, self-driving cars, because look how many people die from car accidents.

50,000 people a year.

And it's insane.

And you look at insurance rates and it's like people doing risky stuff all the time.

And in X number of years, and I've said this before so many times, it always pisses everyone off.

It does.

The people who are like those libertarians, like hardcore libertarians who are like, I should be able to have a bazooka and a tank in my backyard.

And you're like, okay, bro, whatever.

Go back to bed, grandpa.

Those people, the 2045 version version of them are going to be the people that are like, I can drive better than any goddarn machine.

And you're like, no, you can't.

You also used to say you drove better drunk than sober.

And we know that's not right because you have three DUIs and you just got out of prison.

I love that.

I've literally been told that by people.

I had a guy tell me that he drove better drunk because when he was sober, he took things for granted, but he was drunk.

He was extra focused.

Yeah.

Like, I'm actually careful when I'm drunk.

Sure, your reaction time is 30 seconds lower than.

Yeah.

Just delusional.

And And it's like, oh my God,

you're just walking around the world with that level of cognitive bias all the time.

All the time.

Please don't ever drive anywhere near me.

Don't vote.

Please don't vote.

Yeah, don't vote.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I guess my best way to kind of summarize the gist of what I'm kind of trying to get across and you and I are sort of vibing on is this.

Don't just assume science and tech are amazing and there's all the answers.

Never fucking do that.

That's stupid as shit.

You're going to get yourself in a lot of trouble.

But when we have tools like advanced drugs, in the future gene editing, self-driving, AI-assisted doctor stuff.

Ask yourself, like, am I better using these tools a little bit than not?

And the answer is typically yes, but don't just carte blanche.

Trust them, have a human in the loop.

As these tools become better and better and better, just continue to be open-minded and go, hey, like, I think like more and more, these things are really awesome to use.

And then eventually you're just using all the good stuff that you're supposed to be and giving yourself all the best advantages.

I mean, imagine someone in the 1980s.

Shit, imagine someone today having like an opportunity to use immune-mediated cancer drugs.

And someone's like, okay, so I have cancer.

Like, right, no other treatment is working.

Right.

There's this new immune-centered therapy that has 90% hit rate for this kind of cancer.

I'll probably live.

Okay.

How many years has it been tested on human?

None.

It's two months in.

You're one of the first people to use it.

Why?

I don't want to take the risk.

What risk, motherfucker, are you going to die of cancer?

Like, right.

Okay, let me try it.

And so.

10 years later, when the doctor says this is a standard of care, that's because it was new at one point and risky.

Everything that you do today, status quo bias, used to be risky and new, but you do it all the time.

Dude, George, do you think about why people get into cars at all?

Imagine going back to the year 1900 and telling someone like, yeah, like a housewife, like a suburban housewife, is going to be able to get behind the wheel of a machine in the year 2005 that has the equivalent, because it's really difficult to explain how this works, but we took 200 horses and we condensed them into this machine that's the size of like kind of like a person.

We put it inside of a chariot and then you just have this wheel that you operate it with and you tell the horses where to go, and they pull you anywhere you want to go.

And somebody's like, So, what if the horses run really fast?

Like, oh, dude, they can go like 100 miles an hour.

They're like, Wouldn't they get you killed?

Like, oh, yeah, I can get you killed.

Okay, so what's going on?

Like, oh, yeah, in the 1920s, it's going to be legal for everyone to have one of these.

They'll be like, What the fuck?

Why would you ever do that?

And of course, they missed the benefits of driving completely.

And they missed the idea that on statistical risk, driving is actually really, really, really, really safe.

And it's highly unlikely.

It's also a lot of it's in your hands.

You don't have to go 100 miles an hour.

You can go 20 miles an hour and just get to the store on time.

So every time new shit comes up, people get this reflexive like, oh, new stuff's bad.

Everything was new at one point and a lot of it ended up being good.

So don't carelessly run into shit and just start using it.

Be mindful, be conservative.

But if something seems like it's doing really well, it's got research behind it, the actual data means that it's doing really good stuff.

Hey, man, give it a shot.

You don't want to be the last guy with a fucking smartphone.

You could be, but not for health.

You know, like smartphone or not, you're still good.

But if there, you know, if you get a cancer diagnosis when you're 55 and it turns out that you could have never had the cancer had you taken the drugs that were already available five years ago, you're going to feel real fucking stupid about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's kind of a Steve Jobs situation, right?

Hey, we can treat this.

No, I'm just going to eat fruit.

Oh, well, that didn't work out too well, did it?

Fucked up.

Yeah, it's super sad.

And I'm not trying to make light of that.

I mean, it's,

it's, it's a real and sad example of somebody who like overthought this and is dead now because of it.

Yep.

I know we're running out of time.

I'm curious if you can solve this mystery I've had for my whole life in the next five minutes, but explain what is happening when I diet and I plateau and then I am like, I'm frustrated.

And then I go on vacation and I stop working out and I eat whatever the hell I want.

And then I come back and I'm like, I have lost fat and look better in the mirror.

It's been 10 days.

What is happening?

Why is that happening?

The number one explanation is that as you diet and you diet extremely and for long periods of time, your level of stress hormones goes up substantially.

Cortisol, for example, skyrockets.

And stress hormones have a tendency to keep your body water high.

And so you're bloated all the time.

And body water is real difficult to tell apart from fat.

It typically goes to the same areas as your fat stores.

So for weeks and weeks and weeks, it could look like you're losing no weight on the scale.

But because you have a calorie deficit and you're training really hard, you're actually losing fat all the time.

The fat looks like it's not going anywhere because it's really just being replaced with water and you still look jiggly and like shit.

Really demotivating.

Fuck it.

You go on vacation.

You eat normally.

You get a lot of rest.

You eat lots of food.

Your stress hormone levels drop precipitously.

During the time that you're on vacation, you gain two pounds of fat.

But during the time that you had your diet, you lost 12 pounds of fat.

But it looked like you lost six pounds of fat because

the last six of them were completely blurred out by the body water problem.

And so if you gain two pounds of fat on your vacation, but you completely delete out all your excess body water, then it looks like you are four pounds down in fat.

from when you started your vacation, which is why you look way leaner and you feel amazing because you're not super fucking tired and stressed out anymore.

That's why that's a thing.

Fatigue management, the ability to reduce your diet fatigue intelligently every now and again, take a week of much more food eating to reduce body water can be amazing for physical results and also emotionally amazing because you don't have to get demotivated all the time looking like shit and grinding through at the end of the diet.

That's a big deal.

Yeah.

Okay.

That makes sense.

The stress hormone thing makes a lot of sense.

I'd be in college.

I'd be at Michigan, right?

And I would be like eating in the dining hall and I'd be working out every day, sometimes twice.

And I'd go home and my mom mom would be like, I bought Cheetos.

And I'm like, great.

I'm going to eat a bag of those every day, sometimes two, not move from this couch at all for seven entire days.

And then I'm like, oh man, this is going to be bad.

And I get back on the scale at the CCRB and I'm like, how did I lose three pounds?

What is happening?

I'm tightening my belt.

Yep.

Body water reduction.

Huge deal.

Man.

Huge deal.

Now, that doesn't mean you need to go eat Cheetos after a diet.

You can just return to mostly healthy eating with a few snacks, keep lifting weights.

Yeah.

And then after about a week, you won't lose four pounds.

You lose six or seven pounds of body water and you won't gain any body fat.

That's the real unlock.

And we've been preaching those kinds of maintenance phase and fatigue reduction phases at RP for like literally 10 years at this point.

It's really, really sharp.

I think a lot of people just try to like gung-ho everything they can.

Like, yeah, I'm on a tough diet.

Let's make it even tougher and really needlessly difficult.

And then they end up looking a little bit like shit.

They get off the diet.

Then they get much better results and they think, oh man, it's something mysterious here.

And this mystery resolved.

So going forward, it's a good idea that when you're really, really stressed out and you've been dieting for weeks and weeks and weeks, it's a good idea to reduce the caloric deficit, eliminate it, actually, mostly healthy foods, but eat at a maintenance level.

Over the next several days, you'll see your body water drop, your energy levels will come back up, your sleep will get better.

That's another thing that's a big deal.

Sleep changes body water a ton, but it also literally like keeps your muscle mass up and burns fat like crazy.

If you get worse and worse sleep, as you go through a diet, because as soon as you get into a caloric deficit for long enough, your sleep goes to hell, which means you start losing muscle and you stop losing your fat.

If you fix your sleep with a good diet, you reverse that process.

And you're like, oh my God, I'm fucking rejuvenated.

Because you are.

Pushing your body is really good until you push it so far that it starts to malfunction.

Push it that far, stop.

Get out of the deficit, treat yourself right, then get back into it later to lose more fat.

Things have to happen in sequence.

I mean, the same thing is true about almost every other process.

Imagine you had a big project for work you had to do.

If you're awake for four to six hours, you can do amazing work.

Take two hours of break, do another four to six hours of work, have dinner, go to sleep, wake up.

That's a great work schedule.

Dude, if you were like, fuck, I got to keep going 36 hours of work later, straight with no sleep and no rest, dude, you're fucking making nonsense instead of like discoveries or whatever that you do at work.

And then it's just really bad.

And then after a day off, tons of sleep and tons of food, you're going to come back and you're going to be like, oh my God, I have like a miraculous mind.

I've figured out eight problems in an hour that I had at work.

That's because you were pushing the system too hard.

There is understandable and good element in our culture of like valor.

Like, I'm going to fucking succeed.

I don't give a fuck how hard it is, the grind.

And the grind is cool until the grind grinds you down.

Remember, you need your body to be in tip-top performance and tip-top shape.

So push it, recede, push it, recede, push it, recede.

Instead of push, push, push, push, three giant question marks about what the hell is going on, completely get off the diet for months and never see any of those results to begin with.

Mike Ezratel, thank you so much, man.

Always super fascinating, interesting, varied conversation.

I really appreciate it.

I love being on your show.

Thank you so much for having me.

Want to master the art of communication?

Charles Duhigg, author of Super Communicators, reveals key strategies for enhancing your connections and conversations in this enlightening podcast episode.

Why do some people manage to connect with everyone else so effortlessly?

And then there's times when I'm talking to my wife and like, we cannot connect with each other.

And it turns out it's just a set of skills, right?

Like it's just literally a set of skills that super communicators know.

and that any of us can learn and become super communicators ourselves.

Looping for understanding and has three steps.

The first is is ask a question, preferably a deep question.

Secondly, repeat back what you just heard the person say in your own words.

And thirdly, and this is the one everyone always forgets, ask if you got it right.

And the reason why this is so powerful is because it proves that I'm listening to you.

It's really easy to stop thinking about how we're communicating.

It's really easy to stop thinking about what's going on.

until we get in the habit of it.

Communication isn't something that happens just one-to-one.

Sometimes it's one to many, but but the same principles still hold up.

You're still having practical or emotional or social conversations.

Laughter is actually one of the non-linguistic ways that we connect with other people.

There's been studies that show that in about 80% of the time when we laugh, it is not in response to something funny.

It's because we're basically in a conversation and we're saying to someone, I want to connect with you.

Nobody is born a super communicator.

That's what feels tiring is when you feel like you want to connect and you can't.

Right?

This isn't a behavior.

This isn't a personality type.

This is a tool that once we learn, we can use when we want to use it.

Learn how to categorize conversations, improve active listening, and overcome communication barriers to build stronger relationships.

Tune in and transform your interactions into meaningful connections on episode 963 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Dr.

Mike, second round, third episode, maybe?

I don't know.

Certainly not the last one.

The guy is super fun to talk to.

All things Dr.

Mike will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com.

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And we'll see you next time.

A mochi moment from Mark, who writes, I just want to thank you for making GLP1s affordable.

What would have been over $1,000 a month is just $99 a month with Mochi.

Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight.

Three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet.

You're You're the best.

Thanks, Mark.

I'm Myra Ameth, founder of Mochi Health.

To find your Mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com.

Mark is a mochi member compensated for his story.